>>3955147
Final Fantasy 8

VI is so overrated.

>>3955147
JRPG's suffer from the idiosyncranies of Japanese culture. There's always something that feels off from a western perspective and it's hard to care about the story because of that. I guess I liked FF VI and FF X fine.

I haven't played a lot of JRPGs myself, finished the OG Xenogears recently and it stuck with me in a way that few games ever have
Shame about disc 2 being so blatantly unfinished though, would have been a 10/10 game if I'd gotten to actually play through the last act instead of having it summarized via text dump
Hopefully the other Xeno games are of similar quality, I haven't gotten around to trying them yet

>>3955207
not with that asspull badguy and shit love story

FF7, Tactics, FF10

>>3955260
I agree, Xenogears is on a league of its own. To me it's on par with Russian classics.
Anyway, Xenosaga is worth playing (especially 3), but i think it's more rushed than Gears. You don't have a disc 2 situation, but from the 6 planned episodes, we got 3 games, but actually, the story only covers a smaller part
Xenoblade, it's Xenogears/Xenosaga but for a wider audience, the themes are still there, but under tons of fetch quests and the tone is drastically different and simpler.
Aside from Xeno games, i didn't play much, but i like FFVI

>>3955190
This meme fits more with how autistic CRPGs are
Unfortunately, JRPGs are more popular

>>3955190
>>3955424
Never got this meme. You ever play D&D, or literally any other tabletop RPG? Gameplay is fundamentally the same thing, except you choose what actions to take on your turn from a fancy GUI menu rather than announce them verbally. This is how RPGs have been played since their inception, if you don't see the appeal then RPGs just aren't for you.

>>3955426
> if you don't see the appeal then RPGs just aren't for you
Why the gatekeeping?
Like you can acknowledge how RPGs look like to non-number cruncher game fans while still enjoy playing them.

>>3955430
>I don't like this thing!
>Well it's probably not for you then
>wtf, why are you gatekeeping?!

>>3955436
>I don't like this thing!
Who said this?
>Well it's probably not for you then
Yes, you said it for no reason. I didn't said "I don't like this thing".
>wtf, why are you gatekeeping?!
Yes, I said it.
What's the point?

>>3955147
FFVIII, easily.

>>3955454
...

>>3955260
>>3955346
Xenogears a shit

>>3955454
Whatever.

>>3955426
It's a meme made by and for ADHD kids mad at games that don't provide constant visual stimulus so they don't fall asleep 5 seconds into a game, hence the retarded zoomernigger slang plastered on the picture

>>3955147
FFX pretty much nailed it. Masterclass on how to do it well.

>>3955190
>Mom I posted it agajn

>>3955231
I know what you're saying but they're still better than western sodomite simulators.

>>3955147
Most of you faggots don't even understand what storytelling is and shit your pants the moment a game is not a movie.

>>3955231
>There's always something that feels off from a western perspective
Maybe if you are a dumb amerimutt.

>>3955833
This. Truly, the biggest issue is that JRPGs never were about "telling a story". They were about "going on an adventure". The events that occur in the game, the overworld, the progression system, and the characters (if it even had them and didn't just use blank slates) were largely just there to create a framework of a game within which the player was encouraged to use their imagination to create a story.

You're not supposed to sit there and literally watch a movie while you hold a controller. We lost our way, here.

>>3955147

Games are about choice. Choice is at odds with good story telling.

I think it's better to ask which games have good stories than which ones tell stories well.

>>3955147
Probably Chrono Trigger.
The main campaign is very streamlined; the characters are unique, interesting, and feel very intuitive right out of the tin; and when the game opens up after the Ocean Palace you're free to do as little of the side quests as you please; and the rewards for doing the quests are worthwhile.

None of the quests feel stupid. The fact it's a time-travel narrative means it makes sense to just side quest in act 3 because you can just warp to the moment Lavos attacks. Meanwhile other JRPGs have this awkward ludo-narrative dissonance where the main villain is threatening to blow up whatever, his finger is on the big red button... and instead of our heroes going to deal with that, they're off playing games in the Gold Saucer. The villain loses so much gravitas if the odds of him doing something horrific don't have an air of immediacy but the villain loses gravitas if the heroes can afford to ignore the immediacy. At the same time the players want to go do whatever and don't want to be railroaded the entire story. So it's a tricky balancing act of concocting the perfect storm of a scenario in which it makes perfect sense for the heroes to be free to do what the player wills but that the villain is almost certainly going to win and win soon.

Chrono Trigger is the only game I know/played of that pulls it off. I'm sure there are other games that do too, I probably just haven't played them.

>>3955231
Yes. This is also why FF became the most popular RPG before games became cringe, because it was the most westernized jrpg franchise in terms of characters and stories.

>>3955147
FFIX

>>3956523
name 1 (one) western rpg where your goal is to kill a god

>>3956542
Oblivion

>>3956542
Underrail.

>>3956544
Martin "kills" Dagon, not you
>what about Jyggalag
Shegorath does that
>but Sheogorath is me
becoming a god yourself first isn't the same as killing a god as a regular common person, which is the jrpg trope

>>3956567
This seems extremely semantic

>>3955906
>Games are about choice
No. That is no part of the definition of a game. This is just some arbitrary goalpost you've decided to manufacture so you can sound smart.

>>3955147
>>3956056
Yeah, probably Chrono Trigger. Everything fits. It's streamlined in a way that feels like there's no bloat but also that everything that does happen has a reason and a purpose. Nothing feels like a retarded asspull. All of it is cause and effect, where you see both the cause and the effect.

As much as I can say good things about other games, everything outside of Chrono Trigger seems to have asspulls or "we made it up" type explanations, if there are even explanations at all, or "just trust us" type things. I don't think any JRPG does a better job at tying everything into a neat bow of "it just works and everything makes sense" as Chrono Trigger does.

>>3956590
Dude game is always a choice man, open your third eye

JRPGs were never about the story, that's the lie told by the Man, they were all about buying potions for the random encounters

Wake up sheeple

>>3956542
Baldur's Gate 1 is virtually like that, yeah sure, it's Bhaalspawn if you wanna be technical, but since you're being overly generalizing about JRPGs being about killing God, then it's really the same thing. I mean, in the first FF game, you literally fight Garland, who becomes a demon at the end, not the fucking creator of the universe. In the second game, you fight an evil Emperor. I could go on, but you're just gonna call them all "God" anyway

>>3955430
>don't gatekeep
>suddenly, retards everywhere

Unironically Bahumut Lagoon

>>3955147
Persona 4

6 is not overrated at all. it's the first game I played that truly stunned me into thinking gaming is a transcendental art form.

>>3957489
The intro is fucking sick. It’s hilariously how badly the “remaster” wrecked the opening chords compared to SNES

>>3957491
The Pixel Remasters were ok-ish until 6. They just slopped it in on 6 and all of their PR tools (unified menuing, spell animations, remastered sound, etc.) actually made 6 PR a direct downgrade over the OG. Real tragedy

>>3957489
I think VI is the most overrated FF game. I'm an oldfag who played games as they became available in my rental store, and I thought Illusion of Gaia did basically everything that VI did but did it better and did it earlier and with better graphics. The only "downside" is it was an action RPG instead of a JRPG. Illusion of Gaia was a true character driven narrative while VI pretended to be one but falls apart under its own ambition, either due to time constraints, budget constraints, hardware limitations, or consequences of a bloated cast.

>>3957491
Another hot take, I thought that the VI PR had by far the best new OST. Like, I distinctly felt like whoever was doing the music for the Pixel Remasters liked VI (or at least its music) the most out of all the games, particularly the opening.

>>3960801
X is the most overrated to me. The gameplay is very simple and lack of overworld is really disappointing.

>>3955470
Xenoblade 2 a shit

>>3955147
That DBZ game on the nes

>>3955147
Persona 4 is a great social satire and very conservative which is ironic considering its fanbase. Many don't want to admit that it portrays homosexuality as a neurotic illness, urbanisation and obsession with TV as detrimental to social harmony and it specifically represents and comes from a very interesting time period where we switched from CRTs to HDTVs and dumbphones to smartphones. The antagonist's aim to create a world of doomscrolling zombies alienated from the truth is particularly provocative. The game has only become more interesting as time goes on.

FF8 because of its two levels of reading. You can take the fairy tale at face value, or if you pay attention, read between the lines and connect the dots, realize the story is full of grey area and that it's lot more realistic and mature.

That's for the grand story; when it comes to just enjoying the writing and the characters, for me, it's Grandia.

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>>3961174
Adachi did nothing wrong and was right about everything.

>>3955147
99% of JRPGs have the narrative depth of a Saturday morning cartoon. And a cartoon can do it in 20 minutes.

>>3955147
Suikoden 2 and 3.
Yggdra Union.

>>3955190
Post the Romancing Saga 3 Excel sheets.

>>3956542
is Legacy of Kain an RPG.
also Desu Sex 2, one or 2 of the endings.

>>3962447
Suikoden 2's story is exciting but I feel like fundamentally the writing is flawed. Too rushed in some parts.

>>3956567
>>3956569
>fedorafag gets autistic about his fetish not being stroked explicitly enough
let's ruffle em up more: killing a god is illogical, otherwise "god" is just a sound that you make with your mouth. the nips don't have the same idea of god as you to begin with.

>>3956542
the "killing god' stuff in jarpigs comes from gnostic theology, which is western

>>3955147
Xenogears > FF VII > Chrono Trigger >>> FF X

>>3962617
No one knows where gnosticism started but it was almost certainly somewhere in the middle east.

>>3962788
JewishRPGs all along.

>>3962672
Xenogears a shit

>>3962672
>FF X
lol
lmao even

>>3955147
The best storytelling, regardless of gameplay?
Lord of the rings on the SNES

>>3955623
>all characters besides Auron are extremely dumb and/or annoying
>HALLWAY/CUTSCENE/HALLWAY/CUTSCENE/HALLWAY/CUTSCENE
>telegraph all your story points from so far in advance that when they're actually revealed, it's hard to care or event ake it seriously
Yeah, no. FFX is pretty much a masterclass in what NOT to do, and was really only popular back in the day because it further cemented the "movie-game" shift in the genre and had very impressive presentation. Its success is exactly why the JRPGs deteriorated into the shit they are today.

>>3962617
Such a western view of it. Why would you assume it's killing "god" and not a euphamism for killing "western religion", painting it as the root cause for deception and war across the globe?

>>3970178
Which western religion, it's not roman paganism or norse paganism for sure
you mean jews and the propagations of the jewish god?

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>>3955147
The big problem with so many RPG stories is that they take too many words to not say a whole lot. So I say Vandal Hearts. Because it tells an engaging story of national corruption, personal tragedy, redemption and sorrow and it does it in a way that trusts the audience to not being a complete retard.

>>3955147
Phantasy Star 2, FFT, FF7, Tactics Ogre, and Xenogears
>>3955231
>>3955833
>>3955906
I played a lot of WRPGs and their writing is overrated. Most of it is just a hero's journey lifted from generic fantasy/scifi tabletop and it is played entirely straight in a safe way. (They've gotten better in the last decade however.)

They do have better prose or banter than JRPGs, but that's only because of my upbringing as a westerner. Those two don't make for good writing because every culture has their unique idioms, customs, history, and humor that wouldn't work elsewhere. If you aired Seinfeld or SNL overseas, then people wouldn't find them funny. Same with most WRPGs.

JRPGs stand on their own because of their unique themes, plot, art direction, gameplay, and worldbuilding.

Hasn’t been translated so you can’t play it

>>3962617
Gnosticism literally never became popular in the west

>>3970672
>I played a lot of WRPGs and their writing is overrated
Make a video about this.

>>3970672
>Phantasy Star 2
lol

>>3972048
I liked the twist of humans wiping out the populace with an ai that initially helped them, sue me. I had the strong feeling that it had a colonialism theme going for it.

>>3971986
I need to, been writing notes in it but others can beat me to it if they prefer

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>>3955147

>>3955231
See you say that and I agree with it... but then mention you liked FFX which is practically the game that started the modern take on your complain due to the PS2 hardware allowing for more soap opera bits of drama now with voice acting.

>>3970672
>If you aired Seinfeld
>>>/tv/pls. i found Seinfeld funny and the best trollb8.also wasn't a Seinfeld console game? i forgot.
>>3970837
JRPGs are popular. a standup comedian even talked about killing god in the Final Fantasy Legend 1.

>>3972422
>also wasn't Seinfeld a console game?

>>3972415
it had some poorly written parts. Like Luke being blamed for willingly blowing up a turn when he was tricked but no one believed him that he was tricked.

>>3972439
Retard.

>>3955207
>>3955454
>>3961410
Based VIII enjoyers.

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>>3969898
get a load of this faggot...
I don't even care what you think is "good" if you think FFX is bad.

Fuck you.

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>>3962672
throw linda ^3 again in there and you have pretty much the perfect list

>>3972556
>can't defend against criticism

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>>3972777
What criticism? "Luke being blamed when he was tricked but no one believed that he was tricked" is factually not what happened. If someone still holds that notion 21 years after the game's release and they've been explained how stupid they are time and time again both here and on /v/ then there's nothing to be done outside of calling them a 'tard and moving on.

>>3972912
>"Luke being blamed when he was tricked but no one believed that he was tricked" is factually not what happened.

the tone of the party says otherwise

>>3972923
What 'tone'? He's the one that opens up the one-way conversation by sperging like an idiot when everyone else has got more important things in mind then is rightfully met with their fluoride stare in return.

>>3972439
Yeah, Luke is an anchor weighing ToA down.

He's written on purpose to be grating, and it makes perfect sense why he's grating considering his actual age and him being spoiled by affluence. None of that mitigates the fact that the audience is then being weighed down and dragged along on this slog of a tale anchored to this annoyingly grating character.

As for Akzeriuth, it's revealed that Luke was under mind control, so morally he's not culpable as he had no real control, and frankly Ion should know better, he did know better, but opened the door anyway which was just dumb on his part and he's more culpable for it just for that alone if we're going to play the blame game and ignore the elephant that is the main villain. So when Luke whines about it not being his fault, he is factually correct, and the fact his whining falls on deaf ears among the cast does at a glance seem like bad writing. It's certainly not pleasant writing because it makes the cast feel stupid at first... except... part of the reason why Luke has been acting this way is because in reality he's not as old as he looks. That was taken into account. What's also taken into account is that... nobody in the cast really likes Luke that much because of his behavior. Mieu perhaps in spite of it all, but Luke is constantly pushing him away anyway. Anise never even really liked Luke for Luke's sake either. So, really, it's not that the cast is written to be more stupid than they actually are, it's that they're just done with Luke's crap in general. This was a massive final straw.

He's been such an anchor for the entire journey to that point that nobody wants him around, and who could blame anyone? That's how he's written.

And of course, there's the even more grating struggle session trying to get "reformed Luke" back into the fold, and then the writing shifts to Luke being a contrite bore.

I'm just sayin' is if there were a choice to ditch Luke and go with Asch? I think most would take it.

>>3972439
How are people still filtered by Akzeriuth like this a whole 20 years later, it's unreal.

>>3955147
Lost Odyssey

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>>3973039
>He's written on purpose to be grating
just like this asshole

>As for Akzeriuth, it's revealed that Luke was under mind control
and get made the scapegoat while Luke is trying to explain to the party who the real mastermind of the incident was but no one is willing to listen to him. Much like >>3972912
>>3972556

>>3973039
>it's revealed that Luke was under mind control, so morally he's not culpable
Damn, he was mind controlled to leave the party behind and descend to the Sephiroth with Van?! When's that revealed?!

>>3973122
Double retard.

Tried to play VI quit after getting the airship due to how mindnumbing the gameplay is. It’s like they shit the bed after IV and V then locked in again for VII

>>3972116
Phantasy Star 2 has BIG plot points and BIG ideas and a very interesting ending but those are separated by hours and hours of dungeon crawling with zero story, like even 1 has more of a story to it

>>3955147
13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest V
Final Fantasy VII
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance
Radiant Historia
Suikoden 2
Tales of the Abyss
Vagrant Story
Xenogears

>>3973066
Litmus test.

>>3973126
Yeah, so Luke was under mind control. We see a flashback scene where it is revealed that Van has Luke under hypnosis. Trance deep enough for Luke not to remember Van inserting the hypnotic manipulations into him right after the hypnosis session. Trance deep enough that once Van set Luke off Luke was unable to stop.

You take into account that Van just did this with full confidence and this has deeper implications. After all, we don't see Van with a "Hypnosis4Dummies" book, Van messing up or stumbling as he's doing this, or anything other than him being well adept at what he's doing like it's second nature. This necessarily means Van has done this before because nobody, and I mean nobody, just comes out of the womb as a natural hypnotist. Therefore the implication is that not only has Van done this before, most likely done this before on Luke, but odds are the reason why Luke was so diehard in his apologia of Van in spite of everyone's insistence of him being rotten very easily could've been prior hypnotic manipulation, and certainly would extend to hypnotic manipulations to follow Van over anybody else.

The only other person in the mix here is Ion, who knows full well what lies behind the door and what could happen should anything happen to the Sephiroth. Luke can't open the door. Van can't open the door. Ion knows better. If we're playing the game where we're going to ignore the elephant that is Van and divvy out who shares more blame thereafter? Ion is next in line.

>>3973066
Basically because while anything can be a twist or twisted, good twists exceed expectations not just recontextualize. Luke being a whiny, spoiled, child in the body of an adult is just not the same as Rudy Roughknight being revealed to be a Homunculus/Holmcross, doubly so when you consider the different in how either is executed. Rudy heroically loses an arm. Luke whines.

Moreover, the audience is being asked to endure hours of annoyance. Yoda is grating and annoying for a few scenes, if even that, in Empire Strikes Back. Jar Jar Binks is annoying for a whole ass movie. Luke is at least annoying for a significant chunk of Abyss (I found him annoying throughout the entirety of Abyss, but I might just be biased).

I finished the game twice. The first time because the game was recommended to me by a friend and we had pretty similar tastes. Swore by Abyss. The second time a couple years later just to confirm for myself if I was missing anything because even after finishing it buddy loved the shit out of the game.
... I just don't like it.

Like on an intellectual level I can appreciate what the writers were trying to set up. Luke's behavior makes sense. Where the writing might be considered poor is that the writers demand you be annoyed for so long to get to a payoff, and I just don't like the payoff because Luke is diminished. My bar was low and somehow we dove lower. It was a twist, and I did not like it.

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>>3973122
>while Luke is trying to explain who the real mastermind was
Are you somehow under the impression the party didn't know Van did it? Even though they directly discuss Van doing it? Luke fucked up thoroughly and unlike both Ion and Anise, tries to make excuses for it and the party are done with coddling his ass. It's really simple.

>>3973421
>Luke fucked up thoroughly

Getting tricked a LITERALLY CONTROLLED by someone you trust =/= fucking up

>>3973340
(1/2)
>Yeah, so Luke was under mind control
Yeah, so he was very much not
>We see a flashback scene where it is revealed that Van has Luke under hypnosis
We do not, we see a scene that shows Van can trigger Luke's hyperresonance with a key phrase. *Everything* outside of Luke shooting a beam of energy, including what he thinks, where he goes, who he talks to, literally everything and anything he is as a person outside of "I shoot a kamekameha if someone calls me "foolish" ' was entirely on Luke's person. He wasn't a sleeper agent, or a mind controlled slave.
>the following fanfic diatribe
Van knows how to do it because he fucking created Luke himself. The game's not subtle. You have an entire game + dozens of spin-off material and dev interviews to find shit out without making theories up so they can try and help your argument in a Taiwanese sewing board such as this, especially when you'd then have to wonder "why the fuck does Luke's brainwashing magically stop after he cuts his hair even when Van would very much want him to do his bidding like both times at the Absorption Gate and before the final boss", almost as if Luke's not being brainwashed, because he's his own person, and his determination and self-realization as a person is L I T E R A L L Y the entire narrative crux of the game.
>If we're playing the game
Yeah you should play the game you're so keen on talking about, that's my point
>Ion
Second half of what >>3973421 wrote.

>>3973381
(2/2)
Genuine question, are you 47? Because this way of speaking, this idea that a twist can only be good if the MC is le badass from the get go and "loses an arm", the reference to fucking Yoda in Empire and whining about Jar Jar... are you a boomer that's just too brainrotten to follow Abyss' narrative?
Moreover, if your friend swore by the game both before and after, it is adored by hundreds of thousands of people, still discussed almost daily even when it hasn't had a meaningful rerelease in two decades, and often tops charts as both eastern and western fans' Top 1 Tales game as well as the only game in the franchise to feature in Famitsu's Top 100 Games of All Time (not just JRPGs)... you stopped to think that maybe the issue is (You) and not the game?

>>3973702
>so he was very much not

and way to destroy your "argument" in you very 1st sentence, the game tells you that Luke had no control

>>3973716
But it does not, try to either read the rest of the post or actually play the game you're talking about. In other words: I'll accept the concession, your bait won't get any more (You)s

>>3973720
>plays the "didn't play the game" card

I accept YOUR concession

>>3973318
Xenogears a shit

>>3962216
Mind over matter, pen mightier than sword. Adachi just couldn't see himself living a great life and as we all know it's As Above So Below.

>>3973214
The original post was specifically focusing on the storytelling aspect though, anon.

Phantasy Star IV did everything perfectly. Still say it's the best JRPG, period. Also I wonder if the Dr. Stone manga & anime was inspired by it.

>>3973702
>>3973704
Oh, god, we got a chopper here.

1. The "foolish replica Luke" scene's entire premise is lifted straight from stage hypnosis, that's what they're referencing--their reference material, and the trigger phrase is not just the word "foolish."

2. You're really going to sit there and whine and complain about me pointing to other works of fiction and in the prior breath you're going to reference "kamehameha"? Is that your brain rotting? Lol.

3. Because while a hypnotist's influence can indeed create powerful and lasting change work? That doesn't mean that the subject can't be influenced by other sources--especially when out of the direct influence of the hypnotist over an extended period of time.

4. No, I'm not 47. You being a midwit doesn't make me old.

5. I did not say that the only way a twist can be good is the MC is a badass and loses and arm. I said a good twist needs to *exceed expectations.*

6. As to the Star Wars references... all I was trying to do was show that there's limits to enduring annoying characters. Short and sweet with Yoda is preferable.

7. Yeah sure, I'm not debating that the game doesn't have it's fans. I even admitted I might be biased. I never said you're not allowed to enjoy things, anon.

>>3973664
Let me repeat myself so your herbivore ass can understand: Luke fucked up thoroughly and unlike both Ion and Anise, tries to make excuses for it and the party are done with coddling his ass. No buts or ifs, he's pulling this kind of shit right before Akzeriuth:
https://youtu.be/P0_7bMtXNl0?t=190
So yes, when he travels to the mine town to help the sick people right after the above scene, immediately tells Natalia "ewww get away from them, they're dirtyyyy", separates from the party he's been traveling with and being an abject asshole towards for nonstop 60 day months at this point, does everything Van tells him to do of his own volition long before he's then controlled into destroying the pillar, knowing full well he's the one that "kidnapped him" seven years earlier, and having seen plenty of sketchy shit regarding his associates over the last few months including a dude that looks just like you and a younger sister that's clearly distrustful of the man even when they're blood related and who you've traveled with and seen firsthand is a good person, which results in the death of 10k people, and his very first thought isn't "oh fuck oh god oh shit poor people what the hell what did I do" but rather "nooooooooooooooo it wasn't my fault it wasn't my fault it wasn't my fault reeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't think it was my fault noooooooooooo I dindu nuffin, nuffin!!!!"... then yes, everyone's initial reactions (not even accusations, 'cause there's none until he puts his foot in his mouth first) were more than accurate and deserved. Don't pretend the accident exists in a bubble, Luke had such a fallout long coming regardless of what the last straw was.

>>3973867
>Luke fucked up thoroughly

you keep on trying to make it sound like Luke knew what was going to happen and/or a willing participant.

>>3973877
You keep on trying to make it sound like Luke was a poor innocent dindu bystander that didn't have an active hand in the genocide of ten thousand people.

>>3973797
(1/2)
>The "foolish replica Luke" scene's entire premise is lifted straight from stage hypnosis
Which has no in-universe link outside of meta inspiration. Luke wasn't in any sort of mind control at any point before or after the triggering of the hyperresonance. He wasn't hypnotized to be an asshole to the party, he wasn't hypnotized to leave them behind, and the wasn't hypnotized to walk down to the Sephiroth.
>You're really going to sit there and whine and complain about me pointing to other works of fiction
When your reference is as a narrative comparison, yes.
>and in the prior breath you're going to reference "kamehameha"?
When my reference is just as a visual comparison (ie fuckhuge energy beam), also yes.
>another fanfic diatribe about hypnotism
Anon pls.
>No, I'm not 47
__________________________________46?
>I said a good twist needs to *exceed expectations*
Abyss pulls it off, then. It plays with genre tropes, and expectations coming off of previous Tales games, and purposefully builds characters off one another like having Guy be the one that plays like your usual Tales swordsman MC unlike Luke who has a cruder fighting style. Luke's not alone, even the nicer party members like Tear or Natalia have their secrets and skeletons in their closet.

>>3973797
>>3974089
(2/2)
>there's limits to enduring annoying characters. Short and sweet is preferable
Agreed. The median of time you spend with douche Luke is about 12 hours (calculated by playtime over nine different playthroughs when you make the switch to Asch at Yulia City), for a game that takes some 70 hours to complete. And we're not even talking about Luke being a non-stop cunt for those 12 hours, there's plenty of non-dialogue gameplay, or bits where he's being surprisingly nice with Ion or Tear or whatnot, or scenes where other characters are in the limelight, and the like. Point being that Abyss isn't an FFIV case where you already start the narrative with a "conflicted" dark knight Cecil that's clearly already a good guy and then bam, you turn into a white paladin four hours later. Abyss commits to its theme, that of learning the meaning of being alive, and explores it in as many avenues as it can. Luke necessarily has to go from one extreme to the other so he can finally land in the middle and realize himself by the time the game ends and he concludes he wants to live not for Van or Asch, but for his own lived experiences, past and future, and that includes never forgetting about Akzeriuth. Writing him as less of a jerk would've been far easier both for the writers and for the players, but it would've felt half-assed and wouldn't have made the other 85% of the game feel as earned as it does as it stands.
>I even admitted I might be biased
I'll take it. Nice discussing vidya with you, fren.

>>3973880
>have an active hand in the genocide of ten thousand people.

only proving >>3973877 right

Blaming Luke for blowing up the town is like blaming the airlines that sold the plane tickets to the 9/11 hijackers

aka fucking stupid

SMT has such cool aesthetics I wish the stories weren’t dog shit

>>3974454
I keep proving >>3972912 right, actually.

>>3974457
It'd be more like blaming a man that openly invited the armed terrorists on board while ignoring the pleas of the people he traveled with for about 150 consecutive days, people he mostly treated like dirt up to that point, after which he'd willingly and without coercion walk up to the cockpit and take the reigns of the plane for all but the last 10 seconds before impact.

>>3974089
>>3974093
• The default in fantasy settings is that humans are fundamentally and intrinsically humans unless there's something particular about the humans in that setting that is fundamentally different. Hypnosis is demonstrable, well established in the literature, and is a fundamental and intrinsic part of the human condition. That or you better start asking for in-universe links for blinking, breathing, and sleeping too.

I do not know why you continue to insist that we disbelieve our lying eyes, it is ~ plainly evident ~ that Luke is placed under hypnosis.


• Nope, not 46 either. I'm not old, but I am tired boss.


• Yeah, sure, I didn't absolutely dislike everything about ToA. I even agree with you that Abyss has braver premises than a game like FF4. Intellectually, I like what Abyss was trying to do. Ultimately though, I do prefer FF4--and I say that intellectually knowing and understanding that FF4 pays so much homage to Star Wars that it borderline rips it the f off, and is kinda tacky for doing so.


• I appreciate it, but I don't think you get my whole deal with Yoda and Jar Jar in relation to Luke. Just super quick:

- Annoying Yoda: 2 scenes-ish... maybe 20 minutes total, though not even, but let's just say for sake of argument.

- Annoying Jar Jar: Over 2 hours. Sure, not center-stage. Sure, other characters distract from. The amount of Jar Jar featured was enough to ruin the movie for hundreds of thousands, if not then millions, of people.

- Annoying Luke: T-W-E-L-V-E... H-O-U-R-S...
... a-anon... p-plz... not again....

But as I said, I might be biased. Yep, good talking vidya with ya. Glad to hear you enjoy Abyss. That's all that really matters. Life's too short, so spend the time playin' what you love.

>>3974524
*Annoying Jar Jar: Over 2 hours. Sure, not always center stage. Sure, other characters distract from. etc.

Again. I'm tired, boss.

>>3974508
>still making it sound like Luke knew exactly what was going to happen and still went along with it

and this is why no one here takes Abyss "fans' seriously

>>3974632
>making it sound like Luke knew exactly what was going to happen
Making it sound like Luke put himself in a position with a hundred thousand red flags, the culmination of all his past douchy actions catching up with him. Why does the party react differently to Ion? Or to Anise, later on? Luke didn't want any accountability for not listening and going off on his own. It wasn't just that he destroyed Akzeriuth, but that he based his actions on what others said and never tried to understand the situation for himself. The whole reason it happened was because of Luke's blind trust in Van despite the clear evidence he wasn't a good person.
>this is why no one takes Abyss "fans' seriously
Sounds to me like you're projecting your personal insecurities over a generally beloved videogame, anon. Sounds rather rough tbqhwyf.

>>3974722
>the culmination of all his past douchy actions catching up with him.

How so? Zelos being killed by the party for "joining the winning side" when he betrays them is "the culmination of all his past douchey actions catching up with him."

Luke getting trucked by someone he trusted? Not related to his douchey actions

>>3974846
>How so?
The party wouldn't have abandoned him had he not been an utter brat for almost half a year of traveling together. Had he been a Cless or a Lloyd or a Guy or a Jude and had he then reacted exactly the same after Akzeriuth, they would've understood it as a psychotic break and been there for him as friends, at least those closest like Guy, Natalia and Tear. It's the fact it was the culmination, the last straw of everything that came and every way in which he had acted before that made them all dismiss him entirely because, how the fuck could you not. It's not a coincidence that the writers had him be at his worst right beforehand, with both how he treats Ion in Deo Pass and how he treats the sick miners in Akzeriuth.