In a lot of strategy games your choices are limited to "not attacking" and "attacking to conquer stuff".I am drawn towards games that do something different, games where you can attack others for personal gain, but not conquest, more of a "give me money" thing, be it making them into tributaries or raiding.Why are these games so rare? Crusader kings 2 does this and it's basically THE exception, only other game I can think of that does this is King of Dragon Pass, which is a strategy game, sure, but I think we can all agree thats a bit of a stretch.And here is the other problem, in ck2 you run out of things to spend money on somewhat fast... Sort of. Theoretically, you will never have enough money, since you can upgrade vassal holdings, but the returns from that grow so distant and tiny that it's really not worth clicking though. If it could be done automatically that'd be cool but you would hardly feel the difference. So that leaves king of dragon pass, where raiding is actually super fun and achieves the objectives. You can raid for captives, to kill as many as possible, for loot... It's just plain fun. And, if you're doing exceptionally well, it never runs out of things for you to spend goods/cows on, because you can always buy artifacts from other tribes.But that's it! I know there's six ages but I haven't played it yet, but other than that? That's all! I seriously don't understand why there aren't more games where you just steal shit like that.
>>1829996The answer is that playing tall is boring. No matter how much you overdesign it, there's only so much you can do with intricate internal development systems that won't feel like a downgrade to simple conquest.Our ape brains are hard coded to enjoy [your tribe on map] being bigger than [other tribes on map], so while there are some very niche games that focus on making non-conquest viable, they are niche for a reason.A big part of why is that all games are designed with 'number go up'. After a certain point, seeing your number go up without any meaningful changes loses its meaning. Abstract example: you can have 1 city with 999 win points, and it'll feel less satisfying than having 10 cities with 50 points. When you expand you feel like you have impact on the world, much more-so than when you 'grow' an imaginary number that's often not even in any way visible on the overworld of the game.Maybe that's the problem, the devs just need to figure out presentation. Make your small but 'tall' kingdom look sick and amazing on the map?
>>1829996I was going to call you a retard and say ck2 but you already said that. Ck3 to a lesser extant, because you can put relatives on foreign thrones, scheme to weaken or help others etc
>>1830024Yeah no one actually likes playing talk, we just all like the idea of it. Playing medium can be fun though but only in some regions. Like starting off as a tiny country and uniting your general region is cool, but even that gets boring and you WILL end up going further
>>1830092many people like playing tall it's just that playing tall is not something most games allow for
>>1830092>Yeah no one actually likes playing talkNo one likes playing tall because it only ever gets brought up in games that are about conquering and controlling territory. In most cases your income comes from your territory so more conquest = more territory = more income = more conquest. Even mechanics intended to beliberately penalize wide playstyles like unrest or corruption or inflation usually only exist to slow things down (not to mention they tend to make the game less fun). If you want playing tall to be fun, you need games that are designed around playing tall to begin with, instead of games that are designed around conquest where "playing tall" is made into an option by artificial limitations.KoDP is a good example in that aspect. Playing tall isn't a hindrance there because playing wide simply isn't an option. The game is designed around owning a single village and while you can spread your influence through battle or diplomacy, you can't actually take over enemy villages. So the game is designed around your single village from the ground up and doesn't need to make special accomodations to prop up an unproductive playstyle.Playing tall will always be an artificial construct in games that are about conquest, because such games are inherently about playing wide. Even in a game like Endless Legend, where the Cultist faction is the designated "tall" faction and is obviously designed that way. It's actually not a bad faction to play, but the game itself is still about conquest so they have to add all kinds of bonuses and limitations to artificially make playing tall a viable playstyle.
>>1831456>playing tall is only fun when playing wide is straight up 100% forbidden, otherwise gamers will always choose to play wide because it's more fun
>>1833464Stay in school, kiddo. Maybe you'll learn to read eventually.
playing tall is for white people, shitskins just BLOOOOOOOB
>>1830024>The answer is that playing tall is boring. No matter how much you overdesign it, there's only so much you can do with intricate internal development systems that won't feel like a downgrade to simple conquest.Honestly I've always had this vague idea for a game thats like a 4x or strategy game, but instead of being the person in the high seat, your role is the planetary/colony governor. Like instead of having a build queue and an abstract view of the colony, you'd play it more like a city builder. If you want more research you have to get the education quality up, and move in industry and commerce to support it. You build up the military by building barracks and training grounds, and making sure theres enough excess resources to keep them fed and clothed. You gain cultural advantage by making a wealthy influential city.
>>1829996Victoria 2 with modern mods is all about using China as an ATM to fund your home improvements, since direct conquest has some drawbacks, so you basically grab a small trade port and ask for reparation money in peace treaties instead.It's also a game in which small & highly educated countries such as Netherlands or Denmark have a lot of potential, meanwhile AI controlled Russia typically fails despite starting the game with a huge empire.
>>1833467It's called reading between the lines.In kodp had conquests actually been allowed (like makes sense organically) then everyone would choose doing that because that's more fun and makes more sense
>>1829996Endless Space 2 lets you approach conquest in some interesting ways
>>1833744No it doesn't
Endless Space 2 cold wars is what you're looking for.
>>1829996You can do all of that in Stellaris. Focus your empire in a small area then raid others for resources. If you defeat another empire in a war, you can make them pay you tribute forever. You can vassalise them and force them to go to war for you.
>>1833789I used to really like stellaris until it got bloated with dlc, I was keeping up with them for a while but now I’d have to spend 100’s just to catch up not worth it
>>1833489Sounds like Anno / Settlers games, but in spaceI'd play that, desu
>>1830092I like playing tall. Conquering and expanding means more shit to micromanage, and when games have "conquest unhappiness" mechanics (taxes, rebellions, resource drains and so on) it's a complete pain in the ass to deal with them. I'd rather focus my production in a small territory and raze or enslave my enemies wherever it's viable
>>1834065If you enslave or turn your enemies into vassals then you also get to use the game's diplomacy and trade system more than an expansionist warmonger.
>>1833528As Prussia (or Austria, as the case may be) I usually also use the treaty port CB to grab agadir, socotra, gwadar, etc so I can sail to China without attrition.
>>1833984Buying a couple dlc's during a sale or from a cd key seller can get you up to date pretty quick to be honest.
Playing tall is simply too good for gaming
>>1835052Hmm. Yes, I see. A very good point indeed.
>>1829996If playing tall is better than wide, there's no conflict.Playing wide should always be more effective, since you need to compete and win to even enable the playstyle.
>>1835315Playing tall just means you don't take territory after winning. It doesn't mean you don't compete.
>>1835461Brutally enforcing a wild, unclaimed neutral zone around your territory is peak tall play. Like a nice big garden hedge so you don't have to look at your ugly neighbours.
>>1833472bruh, blobbing is pretty much western history
>>1835570You could just claim it and refuse to develop it.
I agree
>>1830092>>1830024Absolutely. The reason we even hear about it is due to larpers who think it absolutely must simulate real life in an autistic manner. The existence of these "people" is the bane of /vst/.
>>1836576playing tall is absolutely not realistic though, that's the thing.
>>1838973Playing tall only became viable after WW2, when alliance chains could be used to enforce unequal treaties abroad.
>>1838973>not realistic uh..
>>1840254They are in the process of territorial expansion right now dumbassOne of the worst examples you could have given, congrats
>>1829996You might want to take a look at Distant Worlds Universe. It's a space 4x and it's the only game I can remember where I had a "tall" empire with relatively fewer planets compared to all other empires but still managed to lead in scoreboard and tech. That said, most games I do end up blobbing anyways, but the option to play tall is there and there are a few mechanics in place to prevent a tall player from being outright rendered irrelevant by blobbing. Also, fair warning, last I checked it wouldn't run on windows 10 right out the box, don't know what the workaround is but I'm sure it's online somewhere. There is a sequel as well, but it's currently still being updated to add all the factions and mechanics from the previous game and expansions.
>>1841508OP didn't ask about tall play he asked about raiding
>>1840344>They are in the process of territorial expansion right now dumbassOnly the most delusional tards believe they're trying to annex Gaza right now.
>>1842688not him but you're the delusional one if you don't count Jerusalem settlers as expansion
>>1842688this is that guy who believes literally 100% of things he sees in the media. he was probably quaking in his boots hyping up america invading iraq before iraq could launch nukes at his home
>>1842773>>1842789criticising israel is illegal and i hope you guys end up in prison for it
Emperor of Fading Suns (with mods)Victoria 1
>>1830092It's mostly because there's just no real strategic reason NOT to contest land or resources other than you simply can't afford to.>I'm not going to expand and just allow my enemies to take as much land as they want because..... Uhhhhh
>>1835461Tall is journalist difficulty. A wide playstyle has to deal with protecting the far reaches that take multiple if not dozens of turns to reach from their recruitment centers and developing the territory enough to make transit easier and the territory somewhat self sufficient while a tall playstyle has everything compact and close by, very fast to reach any part of your lands and you have no need to develop newer weaker territories.Tall meta is having your cake and eating it too.
>>1842680Ah fuck he did shows what level my reading comprehension is at. But you can play as a pirate faction in Distant Worlds as well. You start off with no homeworld to speak of, just a space station and a construction ship, and your raiding fleet of course. I have no personally played as a pirate faction but what I’ve read is it’s a balancing game of raiding fledgling species that are just branching out into space travel without completely suffocating them. You can also trade technologies with empires that you have arranged “protection” agreements with, buffing them up and eventually making permanent residences on their home worlds or colonies. At that point though you kinda shift from being raiders to an actual government and the gameplay just plays like it would normally.
>>1835582Gaming blob is retarded because there's basically no penalty for overdoing it while at the same time having absolute control over the conquered territories when irl was more of a vassal relationship >>1840254>>1842688You are a fucking retard lmao. Post your dick, I bet is a mutilated aberration
>>1829996Playing tall is just not a thing in most strategy games. With the exception of Civilization-like games thay has alternative win conditions that are not tied with the idea of killing all the other CPUs.
Starsector nexerelin
>>1829996>more of a "give me money" thing, be it making them into tributaries or raidingROME 2 TW with the Divide et Impera Mod lets you do that.You often have to create buffer zones with tributaries to protect your borders, subdue or free peoples to avoid public order penalties from conquests. It can be fun, but ultimately you will paint the map, it's the purpose of the game.
Crusader Kings 2 and to a lesser extent 3
>>1829996KoDP and Six Ages
Manor lords in a planned update
Imperator. Being small not only lets you have more alliances but you can go slave raiding and the game's based around pops, so warfare can be productive even when you don't grab clay.
