>filters almost all historical strategy game developers Ok, how would you make a good Pike and Shot era gsg?What’s the timeframe, what is the map like? What are the units and meta?
by not being retarded and understanding that the calls for a pike and shot era are merely suppressed desires for an unabashed spearmanii campaign as alexander the great's dad.
>>1881259The jannisaries alone btfo any alexandrian shit. Also, the naval battles would have mogged anything before that period of history. Ow, and star forts
guns are lameswords are lamespears are coolhistory will prove me rightthe third world war will be fought using mines attached to wooden sticks
>>1881251Late imperial age AOE2 is basically this.
>>1881251I make Total War: Fall of the Samurai, but the gun units are much shittier like the base S2 campaign gun units.
>>1881271>the third world war will be fought using mines attached to wooden sticksWas already done., The Japs had kamikaze frogmen armed with that exact weapon.
>>1881251>timeframe1450 to 1650 AD>mapworld map broken into theaters like in Empire Total War or separate theater maps like in Medieval II Total War Kingdoms>unitsLand: Rodelero, Ritter, etc.Sea: Caravel, Carrack, Cog, Galley, Galleon, etc.>metaSpainMake alliances with friendly natives to dominate the New World. Use missionaries to convert natives. Virgen de Guadalupe event in Winter 1531 supercharges missionary activity for a generation of missionaries.PortugalMake alliances with African nations to secure the coastal trade route to India. Win naval battles in the Indian Ocean. Make trade alliances in Indonesia, China, and Japan. Get missionary buff when St. Francis Xavier arrives.DutchMercantile activity via joint stock companies. Attempt to grab Spanish and Portuguese colonies and make your own alliances in Africa, Asia, and the New World. Maybe fight the Spanish at home. Dutch can flood land and use their navy to protect their cities in sieges.England, similar to the Dutch. Maybe, more focus on founding colonies in America. Fend off the Armada as a scripted event. Capture Spanish shipping.FrenchColonial activity in Canada and India. Politicking between Spain, England, and Dutch. Finish 30 Years War.
>>1881251Empire 2, but make guns really shitty so players have no choice but to keep using melee infantry.
>>1881516did japan really use giants as samurais?
>>1881685Yes
>>1881251>how would you make a good Pike and Shot era gsg?Are there tactical battles or is it pure grand strategy? It's such a kino time period that both are interesting. Wargame Design Studio has some tactical battle based games in the early modern. Only GSGs I can think of are the EU games, but the only one I really like is MEIOU. The base games are too barebones mechanics wise that it feels more like Risk than an actual attempt to simulate the time period.
>>1881619A good start, although I would definitely add in Balkans/Eastern Europe as it was a major theatre of the period and had it's own unique military and tactical developmentshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usuLwvFdbFs&lc=UgxYEvp5F44PGxdGJ_F4AaABAg.AA8O2sQIWf_AAAx6v3rzBs>>1882042Honestly, either would be fine, ideally a fushion of both. I think the two genres being divorced form one another has been more of a detriment than a good imo. I started on civ and moved into pdx titles and only dipped my toes a few years ago into total war but from my understanding, pre-empire total war had a lot more gsg like elements in societal planning and economic management than most people seem to equate it to in the modern sense today. The two elements have strong synergy to actual 'strategy' since tactics always depend on overarching strategy to be properly utilized and strategy requires tactics to impliment it's subsequent parts within it's broader framework. The divorcing of the two with cases like vic3 outright abandoning player control of tactics in favor of a pure eco sim and titles like Rome 2 abandoning all but the most rudimentary of politics and economic management have been a detriment to both respective games and titles.But TLDR; either is fine, I just feel this period of history is unerepresented in historical games of this kind and want to brainstorm how we can fix this and if it's worthwhile.
>>1881619>Empire, but even fucking more horribleThanks, I'll pass
Gulyay Gorod > Pike and Shot.
>>1885867Oh I haven't watched that youtube vid yet, is it good?
>>1881251Mount and Blade: With Fire and Sword already exists, OP.
>>1885906Amusingly, the implication of the video is that that noob boxes and corner map cheese is historically accurate in Total War and they work in real life too.
>>1885930Its basically the perfect counter to horse archers spam, but it declined in importance as mobile field artillery, forward forts etc became more widely used in the East and the steppes were tamed. The major flaws are that it takes time to set up a fortified position and that it is cumbersome to move it around.
>>1885938How does it differ from Bohemian war wagon tactics? They just form a circle if they get jumped don't they?
>>1885930always have beenif anything TW maps are too big and lack difficult terrain that you can use as a flank defense
>>1885460>want to brainstorm how we can fix this and if it's worthwhile.It's definitely worthwhile imo, but I'm not sure it can be fixed. There's nothing realistically stopping people from making games set in this period other than the fact that other periods are more well popular and well known. It's criminal too, given how much shit happened and how important it all was. I sincerely hope the new EU is good, because I did like MEIOU and my main criticism is how duct taped together all the systems are, which could be solved by having the game designed with those mechanics in mind.
>>1881251>>1881619>>1885460American Conquest and American Conquest 2: Fight BackYou're welcome
>>1881685
age of empires 3
>>1885940it has triangle holes instead of rectangle holes
>>1881619I like the theater mechanic
>>1885906It’s Sandrhoman, of course it’s good.
>>1886180Not sure why they never brought it back. It would have been perfect Warhammer II and III.
>>1886302feedback from Empire killed it
>>1881251By forcing them to read all of Dumas first.
>>1881251>make cav use AI>plan the battle before in a strategic window>the actual battle happens with you leading the pikes>make it a scary, suffocating experience>add husaria and long pikes to the mix
>>1886110source?
>>1886849>game where you are just a soldier in 1st person in an actual historical formation >have to actually jab at incoming enemies and avoid their pikes>random chance a musket shot lands a hit on you or the people immediately near you so that you have to walk over>need to engage the enemies who break into the formation by pulling out your sword>claustrophobic, loud, can barely hear commands and just a series of minigamesAn interesting idea actually, could have a choice between pikeman, arquibusier or commander and it could honestly just be a flash type game
>>1886914Hyougemono
>>1887041Seems like something that could have been on motion controls or (God forgive me for mentioning the name) Kinect. Like that Roman game Ryse or the Wii title Red Steel 2. Could be a cool little VR experience. Just the duration of one battle in a phalanx or something. With VR motion controls you'd even get (a fraction of) the physical exhaustion.
>>1887041>>1887068dont overplay your hand, just make it a short mini-game, make it as claustrophobic as possible, leader only (thats how you would explain your character not dying as often), make it possible to give out commands at the same time. The commands, would be dispatched to your troops with a time lag. Other than that you would be just standing there, looking menacingly
>>1887099to follow up on this idea, you dont have to make it a minig-game, just make it a cinematic, with maybe some elements that are interactive. Im thinking, moving elements within the paradox window, make it dynamic enough to make it feel alive. That would pretty much solve the problems of paradox battle being RNG. At the same time it wouldnt be as taxing on the engine. Ive seen flash games doing it masterfully
>>1886056I could never get into cossacks/AC. The scale is amazing but the basebuilding I found most unfun. Way too much going on
>>1886352... older or younger?Or you literally mean all?
>>1887322>I was filtered by basic bitch base-building RTSNigger, C1 was literally designed as AoE3 on the success of AoE2. If you can't handle it, you might have sub-human IQ of 70 or less, that's how basic it is.
>>1887348Meh it's just not as fun as AoE.
>>1887348it is kind of unintuitive how many workers, mines, fields, etc. you actually need, compared to a standard rts. when i picked it up as a kid i just couldn't conceptualize that i needed hundreds of workers to keep the economy going and keep my units shooting and not dying and buildings from falling apart. i figured it out in the end but i could see someone bouncing off that and moving on to something else.was it really meant to be an aoe-style game? i really don't see it.
>>1881251If we get another Field of Glory and corresponding grand strategy spin-off, it'll probably be centered around the 30 years war up to Napoleonic.
>>1887664Oops, wrong image.
>>1887664>>1887667put your phone in a bowl of rice
>>1885867Nothing like a thicc woman to cure your combat stress in between firefights. Prevents PTSD. If you're stunned, she will knock you out of it with a good hit of grain flail.
>>1881251Its probably just me not being that familiar with the time period, but wouldn't the unit variety be boring af? In pre modern war games you can have skirmishers, melee cavalry, horse archers, a large variety of melee infantry, and maybe war elephants if the timeframe and geography allows it.As far as I know a pike and shot game wouldn't have anything besides pikemen, riflemen, two types of cavalry (melee and gunpowder) alongside artillery. Maybe one faction specific unit but with everyone being european I find the concept a bit bland.
>>1881619French, English and Dutch colonies were tinpot towns in 1650.
>>1888805You could add rodeleros (sword and shield), greatswordsmen and halberdiers.
>>1887462>Translation: I was born after it came out
>>1888934French - maybe, give how sparse they were in generalBut both English and Dutch colonies were by then pretty fucking big, perfectly capable of colonising the interior on their own.Hell, Swedes reach that state by then, despite being on their last leg in the Americas
>>1888805I haven't played it, but there is the 30 years war mod for M2TW. I wonder how they dealt with that problem.
>>1888805you still had xbows used in XVI century and longbow used in civil war(last recorded military use), bows were used often in the eastyou have arquebuisers and musketmen and eastern muskets differ from western plus all sort of pike, halaberd and sword and board infantry both regular and irregular, various cavalry(armored and not, lancers, gunpowder and bow one) and horse transported infantry plus wagons and various artillery pieces if you go east you will get cannons of camels and elephants
>>1887348>was literally designed as AoE3 on the success of AoE2It was designed as Big AoE2 with REALISTIC More Resources, More Soldiers, More Techs, More Bullshit, Less Balance, Less Fun!
>>1888958>I haven't played it, but there is the 30 years war mod for M2TW. I wonder how they dealt with that problem.There are two big period mods I've played. Ogniem i Mieczem II (With Fire and Sword II) and Potop Total War. They are both developed by slavs and have similar unit variety. The eastern Euro armies are very well developed and unique. You got militia units, irregular cav units, unique standard army units. Ottomans get a big unique roster. But there is a glaring issue in the unit rosters in western Europe in both mods. They are copy+pasted with very little difference, if any. I think this is due to them focusing more on the Deluge in the east. However, even if they gave it a fair shot, the west Euro militaries would still end up kind of similar as they were much more standardized than in the east. However, I think they could make them different enough to count. Empire managed to, and they had even less to work with.
I think it actually filters players, much like the 1700s Cabinet Wars, people raised on modern conflict don't understand the limitations of the period exactly. 30 Years of brutal warfare should result in conquest or whatever, but if you look at the actual territorial changes at Westphalia they are relatively minor compared to what a single victory in a total war or treaty in EU4 delivers. Players don't get to interact with distance and time correctly, the importance of the Spanish Road is hard to impart when you can just sail in a month from San Sebastian to Antwerp with no real problems, or worse, just teliport there. I think it's an issue of computers, you'd need a real order delay system, a real time world map, a treaty system that promptes balance of power and emphasizes religious aspects over pure conquest. I think it's everything off the battlefield that makes it hard to implement, the actual battles shouldn't be hard, M2 nearly does them
Pike and Shot era had everything the medieval era had plus guns. You could even add units that existed but didn't see real war like slurbows (improved crossbows), "double-armed men" (pike and longbow combo) and exploding arrows.
>>1889610>30 Years of brutal warfare should result in conquest or whatever, but if you look at the actual territorial changes at Westphalia they are relatively minorThat’s because it was a stalemate retard
>>1887567>it is kind of unintuitive how many workers, mines, fields, etc. you actually need,... as compared to what?>when i picked it up as a kid i just couldn't conceptualize that i needed hundreds of workers to keep the economy goingAre you still that kid that you still struggle with shit that literal children were capable of handling?>bouncing offYeah, being filtered in less that 5 minutes sounds like a very sad sap story>was it really meant to be an aoe-style game? i really don't see it.Visit an ophthalmologist. You are getting blindThe game spells to you how much shit costs and how fast workers build stuff. If you can't adjust after literal 5 minutes of gameplay, not to mention figure that "oh, I've STARTED with 10 guys, guess I will need more i na game about thousands of soldiers", you might be retarded
>>1885944>too biglollmao
>>1888805Literally all of those things still existed in the 17th century anon wtf are you on aboutAlso non mixed units is ahistorical to almost every single era of warfare so it's not like the pre modern stuff is anywhere near how it should be anyway
>>1889762>slurbows>my dumbass imagining a crossbow shooting bolts with slurs carved onto them
>>1892976>explosive arrowsThought that was just a video game thing tf those are real?
>>1894257It was a Chinese thing that spread down to Indochina. A small rocket attached to an arrow. There was no way to make them explode on impact, so results varied. I don't know the history, but cursory reading suggests they were useful for settings things on fire rather than blowing them up.
>>1888805>Rodelero infantry>Rifle vs Musket vs Arquebuz>Heavy lance cavalry>Light sword cavalry>multiple pistols cavalry>single carabineer cavalry>crossbow infantry/cavalry>pike vs halberd infantry>grenadiers>horse artillery>hand artillery>mortarsNot to mention Camels, Elephants (canon elephants), generals, spies, scouts...
>>1894311There was an English in the early 1600's who wrote a short book advocating for their use against musketeers to try and ignite their powder, but so far as I know explosive arrows were mostly only used in sieges and naval warfare.>>1893171It's a crossbow but the arrow sits inside a gun-like barrel, which has some advantages. Arrow can't fall off the rails, less wear on the bowstring, easier to mount sights.
>>1889762Don’t forget the infantry revolution. The Burgundians sure didn’t.
>>1888958>>1889606I've played the 30 Years War mod. It's made by a literal indian and most of it is google translated. Reading any description feels like having a stroke. I recall gameplay being off the whack as well, with a ton of buildings of no clear purpose and, for example, the supposedly elite full plate french units dying like flies. I did not stick around with it for long.
>>1889762The only exploding arrow launching off my slurbow is an N-bomb, if you know what I mean.
>>1892864holy shit this is the bitchiest, faggiest post i've read on this site in a long timei'd tell you to rethink your behavior but it's clear you've let yourself reach a point that is way beyond help
