https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-45-8th-of-january-2025.1725373/Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.
Climate The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.TropicalPopulation Capacity +50%Development Growth -10%Life Expectancy -5Free Capacity Attracts PopsNo WintersTropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.SubtropicalPopulation Capacity +100%Free Capacity Attracts PopsMax Winter is MildSubtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.OceanicPopulation Capacity +50%Free Capacity Attracts PopsMax Winter is MildOceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.AridWheat Production -10%Life Expectancy -5Free Capacity Attracts PopsNo PrecipitationNo WintersArid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.Cold AridWheat Production -10%No PrecipitationMax Winter is MildCold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.MediterraneanPopulation Capacity +150%Free Capacity Attracts PopsNo WintersMediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!ContinentalPopulation Capacity +50%Free Capacity Attracts PopsMax Winter is NormalContinental represents areas with cold winters.ArcticPopulation Capacity -55%Development Growth -25%Life Expectancy -5Max Winter is SevereArctic represents areas with very cold winters.
Vegetation Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.DesertCan have SandstormsMovement Cost for Armies +10%RGO Build time +50%Road Build time +100%Development Growth -10%Food Production -33%Population Capacity +10kDeserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.SparseRoad Build time -10%Population Capacity +25kSparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.GrasslandsFood Production +10%Population Capacity 50kGrasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.FarmlandMovement Cost for Armies +10%Road Build time +10%Development Growth +10%Population Capacity +100kRGO Maximum Size +10%Food Production +33%Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.WoodsMovement Cost for Armies +25%Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1Maximum Frontage in Battle -2Road Build time +25%Population Capacity +50kDevelopment Growth -20%Food Production +10%Blocks Vision from Adjacent SeaWoods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.ForestMovement Cost for Armies +50%Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1Maximum Frontage in Battle -3Road Build time +50%RGO Build time +33%Population Capacity +25kDevelopment Growth -25%Blocks Vision from Adjacent SeaBlocks Vision from Adjacent LandForest represents terrain with dense vegetation.JungleMovement Cost for Armies +100%Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1Maximum Frontage in Battle -4Road Build time +200%RGO Build time +50%Population Capacity +50kDevelopment Growth -50%Blocks Vision from Adjacent SeaBlocks Vision from Adjacent LandA jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.
TopographyTopography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.These first ones are land related topographies.FlatlandNo special attributesFlatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.MountainsMovement Cost for Armies +100%Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2Movement is Blocked in WinterMaximum Frontage in Battle -4Road Build time +200%RGO Build time +100%Population Capacity -80%Development Growth -70%Food Production -20%Blocks Vision from Adjacent SeaBlocks Vision from Adjacent LandMountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.HillsMovement Cost for Armies +50%Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1Maximum Frontage in Battle -3Road Build time +50%RGO Build time +25%Development Growth -30%Food Production -10%Blocks Vision from Adjacent SeaBlocks Vision from Adjacent LandA terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.PlateauMovement Cost for Armies +25%Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1Maximum Frontage in Battle -1Road Build time +50%RGO Build time +25%Development Growth -25%Blocks Vision from Adjacent SeaThey represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.WetlandsMovement Cost for Armies +50%Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1Maximum Frontage in Battle -3Road Build time +75%RGO Build time +25%Development Growth -30%Food Production -10%Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.
The following are the naval ones.OceanNaval Attrition +1%This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.Deep OceanNaval Attrition +2%This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.Coastal OceanNo special attributesThis is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.Inland SeaCan Freeze over during winterInland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.NarrowsCan Freeze over during winterMovement Cost for Navies +20%Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1Maximum Frontage in Battle -2Blocks Vision from Adjacent SeaNarrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
ClimateTopographyVegetation
CAN VEGETATION CHANGE IN GAME
>>1931368No, Pavía answered that a few weeks ago.
>>1931371Incredibly gay. Failure of the simulation, honestly.
>>1931364Gross generalization and misunderstanding of "arid" climate, some of the arid areas in this map are notorious for having vast agricultural and livestock production
>1931376Nvm, the terrain expands the concept
>>1931376Arid climate only affects wheat, not livestock.
>>1931371But there are literally parts of the map that were deforested during the game's timeframe.This also fucks over total conversion mods. Imagine freezing the world in Anbennar 2. Oh wait, you won't be able to do that.
>>1931371as in they're not going to do it or it's not possible code wise?
>>1931383Not possible currently, so they would have to hardcode it before any mods could do it.
>>1931376>>1931378Yeah, and why wheat in particular? What about other cereals? Like corn in America and rice in Asia.Also, quite ironic about the arid climate having a debuff in wheat like there are examples of the opposite. Like the arid northern part of Mexico being the wheat breadbasket of the country since colonial times.
>base pop capacity per single provinceSo small provinces have humongous populations compared to large provinces?
>>1931386Wheat is supposed to be the "delicate" crop that produces a lot of food but isn't that commonly found on the map.But yeah I expect these modifier to be reviewed at some point in the future. Balance is not something you worry that much about before beta.>>1931389It's per location, not province. We don't know everything that affects population capacity yet, they could easily make location size a factor too.
>>1931380sea tiles can freeze and you can add the weather you like to any location type
>>1931354This shit is gonna be so ass when it releases, ill play it in 5 years when its playable
>>1931397so true my fellow vickysister
>>1931396Yeah but the fact that topography, vegetation and climate are all hardcoded sucks.Changing the weather is a bandaid solution.
>>1931368> Back in the first map dev post about the netherlands you mentioned not being sure whether or not terrain change would be possible in engine. Any change in that? Any hope for polders? Johan: probably not gonna be feasible
>>1931397I know is going to be shitty to some degree, better than eu4 and I'm looking forward to seeing how it changes overtime. I will probably buy it on release and then pirate everything that it comes after that
>>1931402Man.
>>1931355>Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!Holy based
Toy soldier bros we are so back
>>1931354Havent seen the greenland locations, gotta make sure our artic frontier is fine
>>1931446Don't worry danebro they look good.
>>1931444>So you could get hit by surprise by an army on that forestluckily I don't play on ironman and can savescum to be the best strategist the world ever saw
>modifiers, modifiers and modifiersRiveting
>>1931356>>1931357>Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land
>>1931446https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tinto-maps-extra-1-north-atlantic.1699128/
>>1931460gb2/gsg/
> I have to ask, is flatland-mediterranean-farmland rare? Johan: There are a few..
>>193146751st state looking great!
>>1931467vgh... can't wait to manifest our destiny from pole to pole in EU5
>>193148652*
>>1931476constantinople is one as well as being a s-tier harbour
>>1931476>Province of Avignon and is the Capital of Papal StatesSACREBLEU
>>1931486>>1931491Puerto Rico bros...
>>1931486Do Americans really
>>1931526Never ever, it'd go bankrupt immediately.
>>1931429They should still get mild winters thoughever
https://www.reddit.com/r/EU5/s/pYHalndw5WLMAO based Jotran crushing the dreams of you retards who love to make up mechanics even tho the game will just be ugly-named modifierfest with a very detailed map™
>sgs trannies are also reddit niggersWoah
>>1931356>Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea>Blocks Vision from Adjacent Landhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfyBMc7hUcc
>>1931610sabaton's cover absolutely mogs this version
>>1931662Sabaton are shit
>>1931662sabaton more like sabashit
>>1931476Have they explained how they will do the pope/anti pope situation?
The concept of "Farmland" is super retarded. They already have "Development" as a number. Utilize it. Farmland just means developed fertile land. It would be somewhat fine if the land changed to farmland, if you had a certain level of development coupled with a certain fertility level, but no, the devs are a bunch of Swedish mongoloids.
>>1931386You're kind of assuming they were being optimal relative to crops, rather than optimal relative to profit - reserving the best land for cash crops (which are often thirsty).
>>1931751Look at dis guy not being thankful to six inches of top soil and the fact that it rains.
>>1931747It'll probably be a Catholicism wide situation were all countries pick sides.
>>1931751farmland terrain exists so paradox can give a special bonus to the sites of major citiesit becomes blatant when you look at somewhere like bangkok and it's a single farmland location in a sea of jungle
>>1931751most urbanite bugman post i've seen all year
>it's just dirt right, you just plow it and food comes out
>>1931751the average retards here are so detached from reality after only consooming slop with gamify ft. abstracted concepts for so longthese niggas are unironically thinking and talking in eu termsthey have no sense of real mechanics simulating real life, only modifier variables
Just like people, all land is fundamentally the same, it is just how society treats them that causes them to rape.
>>1931751Yeah, the fact that you can't transform any kind of wild land into farmland is laughable. It entirely contradicts how urbanization expanded.Worse, because the New World barely had urban cities or villages and those had to be built from scratch by the colonizers, thing that it won't be reflected in the game.
>>1931587We won, grey eminence bros
>>1931804>you can't transform any kind of wild land into farmlandPretty sure we never heard Johan saying that's the case
>>1931804We don't know yet how much vegetation will actually matter throughout the game. Buildings and development might end up being way more important.>>1931806Both Pavía and Johan said that vegetation can't change.
>>1931810Each point of development adds +5% pop capacity
>>1931803as a society we reap what we sow
>>1931814DID YOU JUST SAY EPIC PLUS FAIF PERCENT MODIFIER?? WOW THIS GAME IS TRULY BEYOND WHAT WE THOUGHT WAS POSSIBLE JUST AMPUTATE MY KNEES ALREADY
>>1931803>all land is fundamentally the sameNah, there are soils that are fundamentally fucked. Too arid, too salty or too many stones to grow or built anything relevant there.
>>1931751It would've made more sense to split the vegetation map into two maps, tree coverage and soil fertility, and then you could develop different areas into farmlands. Though I understand they want to keep the number of maps down. And too bad they haven't been able to get the terrain changing working, so we could chop down all the trees in a high fertility soil area and set up our farms
>>1931476>Trust Jotran's brand new food system™ bro>Still uses fake and gay supply limit system anywaysWhen will you retards learn
>>19318352 things that mods will fix, much less than any other paradox game
>>1931825You have autism.
>>1931843Probably. I blame the lead in the soil.
So why is it so hard to change the code for any of the climate or vegetation types in a province?Should it be something that can be done like a ownership event?
>>1931851Changing the terrain isn't hard, but since terrain is also represented on the 3D map, it means that a) all terrain on the 3D map has to be fully modular and b) it not only has to be able to change in the middle of a game, but it also needs to be saved in save files so any changes to the 3D map that would be made during the game are always reflected exactly the same way if you load the save.Looks like with the way they set up the map, it would take too much work to fundamentally change the underlying system to make it work.
>>1931851It should be a decision after meeting some requirements, but it seems the game engine is so fucked that all tiles are basically fixed without any chance of changing them. That's the same reason they can't simulate the new lands the Netherlands gained after they built the dikes.
>>1931854With the current engine you would need to reload the entire game. Very possible but that would be a very noticeable lag spike that could take up to like 2 mins even on an SSD. I understand how the QA departments would absolutely kill that feature.
>>1931851My guess is that there's some sort of graphics-related pre-baking that goes on during the game's loading process to improve performance, and the 3D graphics for a location are premade depending on what its vegetation and terrain are. So if you could change them mid-game all of a sudden you're breaking the map up into a hundred gorillion meshes that can appear or disappear every time Baron Shittenpants decides to cut down/replant the royal forest.
>>1931858This isn't the 90s, you can do the background work on another thread and then just swap buffers on the GPU in an instant when the new geometry is ready.
>>1931895Very true on something like Gamebryo or Unreal Engine 3, but the Clausewitz engine made in 2014 is simply not capable of it.
>>1931851Game is obviously a bunch of spaghetti code and it just won't work without them rewriting the entire thing. That's also why I don't buy Johan saying that the game won't run like shit, my guess is that 5 speed in this game will be the same as 2 speed in EU4, and that technically counts as "playable' because MP fags usually play on that speed.
>>1931906We do play on that speed and it is playable. You will be spending most of your time socialising with friends while you play so keeping the speed low is a good thing.
>>1931903it really isn't a very complicated extension. paradox just refuse to hire enough actual programmers, relying on "content designers" instead.
>>1931906so true sister
>>1931759Kek
>>1931797>dense siberian woodland is just the same as anthropicized tuscan's hillsok
>WHY WHY ISNT EVERY SINGLE TILE UNIQUE????trannies really scraping the barrel trying to hate on this lol
>why are you laughing at my modiferslop with a very detailed map not actually being realistic? >w-why does it matter if it's all just infodump with no substance? i just wanna paint a region with the correct pop and religion, s-stop the hate!why are jotran kneelers like this
>>1931979Damn. Feel free to go back to your simulation heaven, where no modifiers exist.Oh wait.
>>1931980indeed there is no such thing as modifier in my modded rimworld gametrade and economy are real and not fake and gay arbitrary fiasco influenced by modifiersmy army travels realistically and needs real supply though they can live the land by foraging the land unlike fake and gay army that teleports between rigid provinceseverything is simulated and not a game of base numbers with gay naming to represent things arbitrarily (which more often than not, very unrealistic) influenced by modifiers like a toddler's playthingbut keep praising a pagancuck for marketing his gay modifiers better than the previous guy
>>1931988>>1931979>>1931797Is this a bot? This reads like autogenerated word soup.
>>1931988>rimslop
>>1931988>rimjobworld
>So, if a location is arctic mountain it has -%135 population capacity so there would be no population to harvest goods produced there. How this situation works? Are there any arctic mountain locations? SaintDaveUK: An example in Iceland showing some other things that impact population capacity.Furthermore, the absolute number never dips below 1000 even if the modifier does happen to add up to -135%
>>1932007Makes sense
>>1932007>Paradox STILL can't into multiplicative negative modifiers
>>1932037goods produced in eu4 can be negative
Not being able to change climate/vegetation/topography mid game is really going to hurt the pony mod for this game.
Old civ games had terraforming but pdx still cant, completely ruins colonization and gives more reason for the monkezilian complaints
>>1931355I hope they change it so that cold arid with free capacity can attract popsDoesnt make sense when Valencia, Odessa, central Anatolia are considered cold arid
>>1932047It's going to hurt a lot of conversion mods.
>>1932007>>1932037This seems accurate though. You have a -135% penalty with a +44.5% bonus so the net penalty is -90.5% of 50,000 which results in the 4750 capacity.
>>1932050It's a valid complaint. People have been asking for dynamic maps since the 2010s and Paradox has not delivered a proper dynamic map once. That and a proper globe map, not those weird projections that usually fuck up one region over the other.
>>1932054>I hope they change it so that cold arid with free capacity can attract popsYou can modify these weights and bonuses/penalties in your game with simple text editing, anon.
>>1932064Yes, having a -135% modifier is additive negatives. Multiplicative would be doing 0.2x then 0.45x.
I'm rather confused why vegetation can't change, is it because it's tied to the map?
>>1932054>Valencia, OdessaThis reminds me of the choices they did days ago for the natural harbors.Valencia and Odessa are not good natural harbors, when they were very important cities on their own and even proper trade cities that connected several commercial nodes.Neither Barcelona or Sevilla, which one was a capital of a trade of a maritime empire and the other one was the most important port Europe had to America for like two centuries. Yet they chose fucking Gibraltar which is was an irrelevant town at that point and is actually a mediocre harbor that Spaniards preferred to use Algeciras, anyway.
>>1932047Can somebody think about the waifu mod?!?!!
>>1932075Coding is hard saar
>>1932068Is there a reason to use multiplicative calculation in this case?Genuine question.
>>1932087In this specific case it wouldn't really matter (would result in a final value of 6500 pop cap), but in general it just works better, is more robust, and gets rid of random arbitrary hard limits that have to be put in with additive calculations.
>>1932037>>1932064>>1932068>multipliers>percentagesI think those just overcomplicate things in the long run. They should use just fixed values for those, thus modders could change those values to whatever they want. For example, if the base is 5000, being a cold region gives you a -500 in production, being a hill a -250, and so on.
>>1932050>Old civ games had terraformingThey were 2d sprites instead of retardedly detailed 3D maps. Thems the breaks.
>>1932099Yeah so get rid of the faggy map that harms gameplay.
>>1932081has anyone actually confirmed there isn't a real test strip out in the middle of the south pacific
>>1932100Honestly I don’t see why they couldn’t just change the terrain type/modifiers in the code and not adjust the map. Everyone’s gonna be playing zoomed out in political mode anyway.
Imo even if they can't figure out hot-changing the 3d map, they should just update the modifiers and change the name/picture in the province view window, keep a list of provinces with changed terrain in the save file, and re-render the 3d map the next time the save file is loaded. If they can't implement that, then either they or the engine are retarded
>>1932113>then either they or the engine are retardedProbably both, but the Clausewitz engine is ancient as fuck. They have been used it since like 2009. The only biggest change they have done it to it is making it multi-core, but the basics are basically the same.That's why I was hyped when the Grey Eminence devs said they were going to use Unity and that the engine was actually capable for a grand strategy game for both modern graphics and massive calculations. A shame it seems they lack money to pay proper devs and finish the game.
>>1932126You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. The first game that used the Clausewitz Engine was released in 2007. The first game with multicore support was CK2, released in 2012, i.e. over a decade ago. There have been a huge number of improvements made to the engine since then and the fact that you don't even mention the addition of the Jomini layer as a major change shows that you don't know what you're talking about. They're keeping the same name for their engine, but that doesn't mean that there aren't major changes made with each new generation.
>>1932132It's because most people know fuck-all about what they're talking about when it comes to engines. They matter but they're always a base and never the biggest tech hurdle. After all everything from I:R to Stellaris is on Clauzewitz and the only things all those games share is the tag/id system and tag-attached resources. They differ wildly elseways. Chances are it has nothing to do with regenerating the map (you can blow up planets in Stellaris and switch terrains in CK3 in debug mod for modding) but probably performance and AI calculations.
>>1932132>>1932140But it's the same engine, that's the problem. There is not much you can do with minimal increments between versions.Paradox has enough money to build a new engine from scratch that is future proof enough to last at least the next two decades. Thing that they still refuse to do, for whatever reason.
>>1932146Again, you are completely clueless. Just stop talking about things that you don't understand. They're not minimal increments, they made huge changes to the engine over the years. Using something that has had almost two decades of development put into it to make sure it works is almost always better than building something new from scratch. That's true for all software development.
>>1932132Kek average gamers be viewing game engine as if it was a real world car engine or something when in reality game engine is just stitching libraries together so it can be improved and scaled indefinitely
>>1931988Are you our retarded fucktard from /rwg/ that always argues with everyone?
>>1932146Why do people like you feel the need to share their opinions?
>>1932113>then either they or the engine are retardedIt's the engine
>>1932220But Vicky 3 has visual terrain changes...
>>1932220That's what I mean doe, leave the visual map be during the session, and update it the next time the user loads the save. It's hard to imagine people throwing a hissyfit because there's some 3d models of trees there for a bit that shouldn't be, especially if they can just restart the game to get rid of them instantly if they really want to. That's a much smaller price to pay imo, than to leave out the ability to drain swamps and clear forests for farmland, which would be a very cool thing to have for peacetime management
>>1932226Victoria 3's 3D map is separate from states/provinces in the script. All terrain is handpainted, rather than generated based on the terrain of the location like in Project Caesar.Everything on the Victoria 3 map that changes is also pre-painted and just hidden or active based on gamestate.
>>1932220Who cares about the actual terrain texture ? All that matters is that when i click on the province it now says "farmland" and that the simple terrain mapmode colors it in the farmlands color and thats it
>>1932086>t. never coded in his life
>>1931988The skills you level up are just modifiers to the work a pawn does... The traits the pawns have are also just modifiers... (besides like pyromanic which does set fires as a bonus)
>>1932140You can also terraform in Stellaris and generate new hyperlnaes and junk
>>1932365I'm not a fag
>>1931364>northeastern Brazil>GrasslandDid they...did they do any research at all?
>>1932106Because Paradox is still dead set on having people look at the map in terrain mode, to the point that in Victoria 3 they even forced the political mapmode to become 75% terrain mapmode when zoomed in. Paradox gets really pissy if you prefer to play in other mapmodes and don't like looking at the terrain mapmode that they put so much effort into.
>>1932498No, you're worse. You're like an American telling others about their countries.
