>>93433428
Gura would probably be unironically happier if she debuted after the big hype has settled down already with 3 generations coming before her.

Not really an answer to your question, but okay here: They still would be successful and loved but obviously not as much as with the insane buff from 80% of the civilized world being stuck inside for a year or more at the time of their debut.

>>93433428
Advent would have destroyed them. Gura would be irrelevant if she went on hiatuses as gen 3 or beyond. Ame would be irrelevant from the begging because she'd just be bijou but worse.

>>93433652
I was typing something up and forgor that covid was a thing cause I was forced to work in person during it. Covid was the real buff and not anything else.
ngl, I kinda want a round 2 of that whole isolation shit. I missed out heavily on the first and now have a job where that would be awesome.

>>93433770
I stayed home for about a year fully paid by my company. Probably the longest free time I will ever have in my life until I am 70 years old. It was great.

>Would any other EN gen have been more successful than Myth if they had been the first?
Yes. Myth got as popular as they did because EN vtubing was relatively new and the global lockdown buff was huge. If Advent were gen 1 they would probably be bigger than Myth due to better group chemistry and work ethic and Bijou would've took Gura's place as Cover's mascot. Or maybe FWMC, who knows.

>>93433428
Interesting question that I think about a lot. A lot of myth was the perfect storm timing. If this specific group came out today I think people would find them extremely disappointing. I think gura is an exception to this although I doubt she'd be the center of the en vtubing universe as she was.

>>93433964
>Bijou would've took Gura's place as Cover's mascot. Or maybe FWMC
Definitely the dogs. I don't like them but the twin gimmick alone is strong mascot material.

>>93433428
I think Ame and Gura would have not joined. Their careers seemed on track to be good without the situation Myth was when they debuted. I could see both of them being Twitch Vtubers, and it would have been really funny seeing some timeline where they are as hated by threads like /#/ or the catalog.
Calli would have probably be a weird pick, and she wouldn't have the same opportunities she has now. Hell, I think she would be like ERB
Ina and Kiara would be disappointing, I think them post being in Myth for so long have benefited them, because when they debuted they were really carried for being "cute" and in Holo, because it was so fucking boring in retrospective

It's seems like a statement that is designed to piss people off but I think you could take any number of girls from outside of the hololive vtubing sphere plug them into myth at that time and they'd do just as well or better.

>>93433428
Nah, Id rather not have any of the new gens suffer through the first 2 years of management neglect and omegafaggotrash

>>93434345
Oldfag here, Gura's RM posted a vote to see if she should apply to hololive or not. Most people voted yes and her message was really hyping the idea up. And she was already a twitchtuber, so it was mostly a matter of time of her going to hololive.

>>93433956
That just sounds delightful honestly.

>>93434530
Yes, but we are talking about a scenario where she didn't join Myth and instead would have joined a Gen 4, but I'm saying if she hadn't joined Myth, she would have not joined Holo at all. Back in the day, Holo was a golden ticket because barely any vtuber on their own could make it positively, merch and sponsors were almost nonexistent. These days, most Holos that join are usually 2-3views for a reason, you will never see a 4view with a popular fanbase, merch and sponsors leave their position to join a corpo, you can really make good money without it.

>>93434420
They do seem disproportionately burnt out and jaded but I'll say they also did probably have the highest highs any en vtuber will ever experience.

Advent learned from mistakes made by the earlier gens. If you debuted them as gen 1 they would still be successful but completely different.

>>93434866
That's a fair point and I won't fight that only 3views would jump on the holoticket now.

Everyone just assumes Advent would've made it big but that's a pretty big leap in logic. Advent is polished precisely because they had two gens ahead of them and learned from their mistakes.

If Advent had been the vanguard then they would have run into a whole mess of problems they don't now or ever have had to deal with. Would Shiori have been able to handle the behind the scenes technical snafus? Also she and Rissa seem like they'd blunder into certain topics too easily and not know how to talk themselves out.

People take it for granted now but Gura was amazing at avoiding (or just ignoring) potential pitfalls in the social media sphere. I cannot see current Advent doing that.

>>93433964
Eh. We don't know how advent would behave with having 0 management support and being basically compleatly on their own vs having full support they got now. They wouldn't of had any pre debut training. They wouldn't of been able to meet up with each other pre debut. I'm not sure if Shiori would be able to wrangle them like Ame did to do VR chat stuff like she did. They would be stuck at home only being able to stream normally for 2 and a half years like myth. There also wasn't a big music focus at the time which would hurt.

>>93434885
I agree. To go from those covid-buff days to now must be wild. For both the viewer retention and for them as well. Kinda the only way for them to socialize back then, now there's so much more.

>>93435196
>Also she and Rissa seem like they'd blunder into certain topics too easily and not know how to talk themselves out.
fwmc would've tried appeasing the chinks and trying to make everyone love them. i think that would've been a lot worse.

>>93435196
To start with, Advent would not have been possible in 2020 because some of its members got into Vtubing much later after they saw the Myth success.

>>93435607
The premise requires a small suspension of disbelief my friend.

>>93435607
Well yeah, but this is a hypothetical situation we're talking about here.

>>93435375
I dunno, the general consensus back then was that cover was in the wrong for siding with china, and fwmc never go against what's mainstream, nor would they take a side against japs.

>>93435607
The point of the exercise is to determine if the personalities in myth were the key to their success or if it was something else. Or most likely some combination

>>93433428
no, I dont think biboo/rissa/shiori wouldve been able to fill the shoes of gura/mori/ame nor would fuwamoco be more valuable than any 2 members of myth combined. Look on the bright side tho, they didn't have to go through all the shit that myth tanked and are much better supported because of it.

>>93435847
They also probably wouldn't take a side against cover though

>>93435906
The problem is the personalities they have are 100% dependant on what myth did. We have literally no way to know how they would act with no support vs the full support they have now.

>>93435847
fwmc almost certainly would've tried appealing to the chinks seeing how big of an audience there was, and at the same time i can't ever imagine them deliberately try to alienate any fanbase, so i think it'd have gone over terribly. unless it was a directive from yagoo for holos to stop after CN got terminated

>>93436283
Would fwmc have spoken out against cover? Definitely not, but they're hyper jap lovers, they're not gonna side with chinese over the japs either. They probably would have just kept silent on the issue.

>>93433428
gura would have popped. her blue cat prior life was big enough she probably would have hit 1 mil pretty fast

I don't see a universe where cali doesn't pop either. the girl got a record label to sign her. ina and kiara would have gone pretty normal for an EN vtuber... watson... depends. amexsame was mostly a gura buff, and it dragged watsons sub numbers up pretty hard. so i think they would have hit hard anyway.

>>93436649
yeah; that's precisely the issue; they would've tried to be fencesitters. at least until cover & everyone in both EN & JP were firmly on coco's side. it'd be an added shitshow that wasn't there with myth.

>>93433428
There's a reason they're the top choices
>Gura
had 900k or something subs back then, possessed a vtuber avatar by early 2020, great entertainer, great voice actress, great singer, overall a solid pick
>Kiara
they needed someone who could speak Japanese. Kiara was also familiar with idol stuff and happened to live in Japan
>Ina
was a professional artist and had a vtuber avatar. come back when Raora can create good mascots like Ina did
>Mori
solid pick for music stuff as nips were obsessed with rap
>Ame
solid pick for gaming and creative streams, had a vtuber avatar

The key factor here is to have useful skills and a passion for vtubing

>>93436649
They would've tried reassuring their chinese viewers that they'd always be welcome on their channel no matter where they're from or what language they speak, that they're here for the world's smiles or something, and then have to backtrack hard after cover nukes holocn.

>>93436957
I don't recall but didn't myth stay quiet on the issue back then too? I don't see how that's any different.

>>93437198
probably not backtrack, but simply acknowledge it again, like Nene did after her chinese lore got erased.

>>93437363
simply never acknowledge*

>>93434345
Gura would still be cleaning toilets and accepting commissions from literal whores without hololive

>>93437363
FWMC definitely wouldn't have stayed quiet unless they got specific marching orders. Which they wouldn't have, given it was quite early in HoloEN's timeline.

>>93433428
>How well would Myth fare if they had come out as Gen 4 instead?
They'd be flops by virtue of the fact that they don't stream. Calli would probably still get singing deals because she has connections and Gura would be happier with not being the face of the company but still probably wouldn't stream.
>>93435339
>advent
>full support
Heh.

>>93437143
>come back when Raora can create good mascots like Ina did
She did already

>>93435980
>The problem is the personalities they have are 100% dependant on what myth did.
You're saying this in the wave with Shiori? The only vtuber more transparently themselves through a transition is Kson.

>>93433428
Does this mean Council would've been in Myth's place? It would've done awful and Nijisanji would've somehow become the face of vtubing globally, causing a terrible dark age for the genre.

>>93437143
Good points.

Although, beside Gura and Calli, I think later EN members could do what Myth did and in some cases are better at it.
-Bae and Irys also speak jp and are into idol stuff.
-Sana had similar vibes to Ina, is also a professional artist (arguably better imo) and also designed mascots (the BEEGSmol models and Irys's mascots)
-Cece is just as creative as Ame and also has gurame level chemistry with Gigi.

A lot of you forget that Gura joined at the height of starting 2 tiktok trends, Belle Delphine, and pandered to city pop when it was popular. No one else under consideration had that kind of clout at that point in time.

Also Kiara would have gone back to Austria to be an escort or something. Waitressing would not have paid for her lifestyle.

Later gens joined after they saw the viability of such a career. Myth joined because they took a risk for a novel remote job during a time of lockdowns. As Ame put it, no one in myth expected to stick with the job as long as they have.

>>93437659
>They'd be flops by virtue of the fact that they don't stream.
We're not judging them by their standards now but how they would be at their debuts except as gen 4.

>>93438142
Then they'd be even moreso flops because chemistry means everything. Nobody really argues that Myth didn't catch a golden ticket to the top, even those who only watch Myth. Without the timing, Myth is almost nothing.

>>93438093
You seem to have forgotten what "speculating a hypothetical premise" means.

>>93437991
Ceci is, as I imagine is a shitposter trend just from the way I'm going to word it, objectively a better Ame in every single way.

>>93438256
It's because they were Myth that they were able to catch that ticket. Had Cover assembled a different EN group it's likely that other group would've whiffed. Let's not forget every vtuber at the time had a potential huge audience but one group in particular stood out.

>>93438433
Their roommate's meant little to nothing at the start of their popularity. Anyone could have done "a", vtubers make stupid and cute noises all the time. It was entirely a person in the right place and the right time, not the right person in the right place and right time.

>>93438433
if the argument here is that if ye could change myth's members, wouldje, then yeah no literally any other member of en swapped in with my would'va made very little difference for better or worse, nothing they did in their first month was so unique and fresh beyond simply hitting the algo like a maelstrom by complete and utter accident and introducing a whole new wave of people to vtubing

>>93438256
>chemistry means everything
Nobody really argues myth has bad chemistry either, they managed alright given the circumstances. Advent and Justice do have better great chemistry and that's because they were allotted a good chunk of time to hang out together before debuting, a standard of practice that would not have been afforded to them if either had debuted back then.

FWMC's gimmick wouldn't have meant nearly as much in gen 1.

>>93438433
I doubt that, honestly.
The only ones who probably mattered were Gura and Mori.
You could argue that if they had say, Shiori instead of Ame, it would've done about as well. Same with something like Ina replaced with Fauna.

Kiara would have to be replaced by someone as autistic about idols as her though, but Pomu and Fuwamoco were absolutely not ready back then, so she's probably the absolute best they could've recruited for the first gen, too.

>>93438545
>Anyone could have done "a"
Nah. I don't even really care for Gura but few could pull off her debut as she did.

>>93438745
Nah while giving time for relationships to develop is important what matters more is the actual personality types in the first place. The first time I saw pomu and selen collab was a fucking riot and they drove each other nuts out of the gate though they hardly knew each other at the time. It'd been about a month.

https://www.youtube.com/live/DR4-ada3jP0

>>93437143
>Kiara was also familiar with idol stuff and happened to live in Japan
Kiara's situation is probably the most time dependent of anyone in Myth.
In a different timeline where
>she's not on working holiday
>that working holiday is not gigafucked sideways by being during peak COVID
I can't really see her jumping into vtubing at all. If she did somehow still trip and fall into debuting in Hololive, I wonder how much influence she would take from the JP holos versus the EN members and western style chuubas. Kiara's thing at debut was definitely Pekora influenced, I don't think that's something I need to pull the timestamps out for, so if she debuted in 2023 or 2024 after Nerissa or FWMC or CC I have no idea what she would be like.

>>93438321
Myth wouldn't have joined Hololive and later gens would have been too young and inexperienced to become popular or for Cover to consider them.

Cover took a risk with Myth as much as Myth took a risk with Cover. Cover also did not know what kind of streamer would have been popular, hence the spread of interests Myth has.

A huge part of Myth's success had to do with when they debuted.
Which is not to say they didn't earn their success through their own hard work, it's just that they debuted right in the middle of the covid lockdowns, when damn near everyone had a lot more time available to watch vtubers. The western, English-speaking market was, at that point in time, a market largely untapped by the Japanese vtuber agencies; and was populated only by a handful of small EN agencies, a handful of YT indies, a bunch of Twitch indies including Ironmouse and Zentreya, and Chaturbate indie Projekt Melody (the last three hadn't formed Vshojo yet)
Hololive was already gaining popularity in the west due to clips with English subtitles and the bilingual (and comically vulgar) Kiryu Coco. Suddenly they were debuting an English-speaking branch, and the English-speaking audience now had massive motivation to watch vtuber livestreams in general and Hololive streams in particular.

....oh, and Gura getting a full combo on Brain Power on the highest difficulty also helped.

>>93438745
Myth chemistry is fucking dogshit dude. The fact that you can even begin to say that they have even a fraction of chemistry as Shioraven or Autofister is baffling. If "a good chunk of time to hang out together" was the deciding factor here than Myth would have the best banter of any english speaking group.

>>93438545
The 'a' didn't cause millions to subscribe on day 1. They continued subscribing due to her material over the subsequent months as well as the overall group interactions. Not attributing any value to the person in the moment is absolutely bizarre, it's like saying the outfielder who made the catch isn't important and that anyone standing there would've caught it. You conveniently ignore how she got there and what she did afterwards.

>>93438858
>but Pomu and Fuwamoco were absolutely not ready back then
How? Fwmc had been grinding the idol scene for a decade already and outside of being taught the technical side of tubing both would handled it just fine.

>>93439153
I think being able to develop a relationship together outside of the giant sphere of public knowledge of your gen's existence does make a difference but again, I think given the circumstances Myth did okay. Not great, but still okay.

>>93439219
>The 'a' didn't cause millions to subscribe on day 1.
It was one of the biggest deciding factors in the original burst of popularity. Almost nothing about Gura's first month stands out to me looking back on it, in fact there's even some cookie-cutter stuff I totally forgot about like Outlast.
>it's like saying the outfielder who made the catch isn't important and that anyone standing there would've caught it.
This is actually an amazing point, because yes! Anyone standing there would have caught it!

>>93439220
>How? Fwmc had been grinding the idol scene for a decade already and outside of being taught the technical side of tubing both would handled it just fine.
Did you watch their GGN streams? They were awful up until like mid 2023. Tons of dead air and they really weren't interesting.

>>93439403
I think you vastly underestimate the ability to stick a good first impression. If her "a" made all the difference as you claim than that was her ability to recognize how effective it would launch her trajectory.

>>93439809
And they weren't especially gifted idols either.

>>93439810
i think for the purposes of this thought exercises you need to assume that HoloEN would've still gone viral, or the whole thing's pointless.

>>93439894
>you need to assume that HoloEN would've still gone viral
Yes, but I think most in this thread agree Gura and Calli contributed heavily to that. It begs the question if any later gens could have pulled off a similar start.

>>93439809
>Did you watch their GGN streams?
I didn't so I guess you got me there. The twin gimmick would have still been strong tho, and their clear love for idol shit is evident.

>>93440118
again, for the purposes of the thought exercise, you simply need to assume that they did, because it's a completely unfalsifiable hypothesis. going viral is never guaranteed.

>>93440228
I should have said pulled off a better start, and honestly I've having a hard time picturing any other gen doing that. Cause overall I feel Justice has more raw talent per member, but Advent has more appeal so it's hard to say.

>>93440205
fwmc's gimmick would've been meaningless to the vast majority of viewers who'd never seen another vtuber or had only ever seen kizuna ai.

>>93440481
well yes obviously it's much easier to imagine something that actually happened over a complete hypothetical. that's not meaningful. it's like every "But what if [Movie Star B] was in [Movie]? I can't imagine anyone but [Movie Star A] playing [Character]" conversation even though, logically speaking, there are surely many actors fitted for any particular role.

>>93437991
>Sana had similar vibes to Ina, is also a professional artist (arguably better imo)
Anon, the thing with Ina is that she crank her shits out FAST, like, Lovecraftian tier fast
Sana (And Raora) still can't match that

>>93440706
Then for the sake of the premise I think Justice would have had a greater impact had they debuted first. All naturally talented and likable, and it's the only gen I've liked out the gate since myth.

>>93440815
>Sana (And Raora) still can't match that
Sad but true, tho I still prefer Sana's art.

>>93439153
>Myth chemistry is fucking dogshit dude.
As if any other gen is any better

>>93433428
>gura
Gura would've still been a monster off of singing alone. 120k karaokes is still wild.
>mori
Mori wouldn't have hit as hard. Not saying she isn't good, but "proves that EN can put out decent music at a consistent pace" just doesn't hit the same on year four or five or whatever we're at now.
>Ame
Nothing against her, but she wouldn't have done well without being first. Especially now that the rules are more restrictive
>Kiara
Depends on whether or not she would have used the four years between Gen 1 and Gen 4 to iron out the early streaming kinks she had
>Ina
Ina

>>93441354
Advent and Justice have fantastic chemistry wtf are you talking about

>>93441402
>Advent
It's everyone else being natural vs FWMC just being FWMC
>Justice
So bad that people regarding it as an ID gen

>>93441382
I think if Kiara were to be in gen 4 she would've gotten there after having been in a small corpo for the past few years. probably enough to iron out the streaming kinks, but it makes me wonder which corp she'd go for...

>>93441460
So you don't watch either of them, ok.

>>93441460
Justice actually has good chemistry. Not amazing, but it's good, I think.
Advent I can't decide whether they're good or not. They at least try, and understand that this is a job in which part of the product that they sell is their perceived chemistry, which is more than Myth did in their first year.

>>93441623
Advent is still having collabs 18 months after their debut. They are friends, it's clear.

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>>93441623
>Justice actually has good chemistry

>>93441623
Agree that Justice chemistry is great mainly because ggcc but raora blends well too. Erb is not really a part of the equation but the rest is so strong I don't think makes a huge difference.

Advent I don't really see great chemistry within the group but people like fwmc and biboo have excellent chemistry with members outside of the group

>>93441780
>fwmc
>having chemistry with anyone besides themselves
ok anon

>>93442132
I kinda get what you mean because they are so dedicated to the character bit that they can seem like they are doing their own seperate thing but that's mainly with en. It's annoying af obviously.

But with jp the other talents really like to play off their bit and they get a lot of comedy out of it. Miko Subaru fubuki all seem to enjoy working against their kayfabe.

>>93442384
nta but I feel the same. They're better at playing off the JP talents. When they're with EN half the time they feel like they're in an adjacent space in the same stream.
I can't say I understand all the nuances of their JP chemistry since I don't know JP tho

>>93442384
>with jp the other talents really like to play off their bit and they get a lot of comedy out of it.
I'm not watching EN to watch japs anon.

>>93442846
I'm not asking you to bro. I'm saying they have chemistry with people other than themselves but unfortunately for you they're a lost cause cuz they are never gonna gel with any en talent. They aren't my favorite either but they've certainly found a niche.

>>93443000
>I'm not asking you to bro
You responded to me, and I told you I don't watch EN to watch japs. That's how communication works anon.

CC or GG in place of Kiara, but that's the only improvement.
CouncilRyS took a while to find their feet, and they lost both their legs anyway.
Advent is a slave gen. They don't lead. They don't organize anything. They don't go above and beyond. All they do is follow. If Advent kicked off HoloEN, there would be no HoloEN today, because they would rely on management to tell them what to do, and management didn't care for HoloEN for two years.

>>93433428
Most of them probably would not be hired. Advent and justice are better how EN scene looks these days than Covid buff ones like Myth (and Promise a little bit)

>>93443135
ah, I misread it as "I'm not asking you bro"

my bad

>>93443135
>>93442132
Bro is this you? I answered that then you said you don't watch japs which is a non sequitur. Are you confused about something? I'll give you a quick lesson on communication, generally when you respond to someone's post with a point and someone responds back that is called a conversation. If you don't wanna have one you can just write it down in a notebook or some shit. Or do you just like having the last word like a bratty child?

>>93443277
Aww fuck np then man. I already hit send on my slightly pissy response though so my bad.

>>93443176
>Advent is a slave gen. They don't lead. They don't organize anything.
This made me realize just how many events Justice has lead or pushed out within their short time here. I think despite missing a gura type they would have been pretty solid as the first gen.

File: IMG_0719.jpg (69 KB, 1024x535)

69 KB JPG

>>93433767
Myth = beta test
Council/Promisrys = throw whatever against the wall
Advent = perfection
Justice = almost Advent 2.0

>>93443437
all good, I fucked up first.

>>93442620
There's a lot of spontaneous chemistry as well, but where JPs really excel is writing bits and narratives (a lot of the times on the spot) and executing them to the T.
EN is comparatively less skilled at that particular style and instead tries to sell personality and chemistry as the centrepiece. Most of ENs treat kayfabe as an ironic gimmick so in that regard FWMC stick out.

>>93443635
>Most of ENs treat kayfabe as an ironic gimmick so in that regard FWMC stick out.
Both Ceci and Gigi also stick to keyfabe pretty consistently too. They also make bits and create characters on the spot to play out and they gel well with the rest of EN better than fwmc ever have.

>>93443998
Does GG do that? I only watch her in collabs and she's excellent there but dunno about kayfabe

>>93443998
cc and gg still just use the keyfabe as a gimmick, maybe not as "ironic" as other EN talents, but still just a gimmick. They're both perfectly capable of dropping it in collabs, which the dogs seems incapable of doing. CC isn't constantly pretending to actually be some ancient automaton that gained sentience, she just occasionally makes bits out of it, as does GG. FWMC are always in character, no matter the context, which can be grating if you're trying to have a genuine conversation about something.

>>93433428
They had 4 instant hits plus Coco doing EN memes. I doubt other gens could have filled in for Moris music or Ames experiments and her game/karaoke taste. The EN side didn't care for jp pop/idol songs so Ame, Mori and Gura with their own genres pulled in more fans than the typical anime/vocaloid stuff we had before. The later gens have great singers but nothing to expand a new EN branch.
Ina did her part time gig and found stable ground doing art attracting other artist for some variety. We already saw Sana failing to keep up so no chance to survive being EN1. As for the the typical game vtuber like Fauna or Biboo I feel like the perms autism after the holocaust would have suppressed most of their strengths, fucking Nintendo 51 clubhouse for months.

And then there was Kiara with the terrible start that took a few months to turn around but made EN all the better for it. Some idol spirit and translation work were nice, but the best part was the close bond with her saviourfag fanbase after her problems. She was the best pipeline to know what was going on with other girls just clamming up instead of just explaining things. Perms problem? Just tweet at the dev to resend the fax and have her manager to check the inbox. Collab saved. I don't see how this combo of clear communication and germanic autism could have worked out with anyone else.

>>93444115
Actually all of Justice sticks to their keyfabe fairly consistently, ERB especially, tho admittedly none of them quite to Ceci's level.

>>93444240
I think CC and GG strike the best balance between keeping to their characters while also being genuine. Thing is fwmc are outliers, jps aren't slaves to their keyfabe like fwmc are either.

>>93433428
ame would not pass audition

>>93443502
I love that picture.

>>93439027
She would have been a teamate, according to her

Depends on how much support they got. It was jarring in the early days seeing HoloX come out and immediately get more help than myth had. Even now they are still fucking up shit like Kiara's ALL EN 3D STUDIO PRODUCED LIVE.

>>93444553
We're assuming they would have the same level of support that is evident at the time.

>>93434866
>most Holos that join are usually 2-3views for a reason
Justice BTFO? I like 'em tho

>>93435375
Can they speak Chinese?

Mori would still do ok but wouldnt be a big hit, Ina is boring and would bomb, Kiara was supposed to be a JP before Polka took her spot and she wouldve been a turboshitter and Gen 5 wouldve been an even bigger disaster with her in it
Ame was very much a right time, right place hire. She was unremarkable even then but they kind of needed a "normal" streamer who was a conduit to westerners, obviously she would never make it today
Gura is still the best English speaking talent in the company but she never streams so who knows

>people still stuck in 2020 still hate Kiara
I'm not surprised with how retarded /jp/ dogfuckers are.

>>93444391
>jps aren't slaves to their keyfabe like fwmc are either
This. Older JPs have so much lore to their persona (not kayfabe) they don't even need any kayfabe. Only Luna is a kayfabe autist to the same degree as FWMC are.
One thing to be said tho, JPs really like to play up to general character archetypes (Japan loves archetypes after all), whereas most ENs usually tend to complain about typecasting if it goes too far on the fans' end.

>>93437143
>they needed someone who could speak Japanese. Kiara...happened to live in Japan
That's true of Mori, too, though.

>>93437143
>a passion for vtubing
Mori definitely did not have that. She was an amateur who was willing to learn but was doing it to boost her music career.

>>93444771
Don't ignore the idol stuff, faggot.

The ultimate problem EN has is they were never able to mine the already existing talent in the market for various reasons so you ended up with this weird diffusion of talent and then the favored/promoted talents ended up having less to do with ability than who was a big enough weeb to move to Japan and have proximity to the company
You can like her or not but the JP version of Nyanners went to work for a corpo and would probably still be employed by one today. Instead, she did whore streams, married a 2view and then basically retired

>>93444771
Kiara's Japanese is way better tho. Don't underestimate how much the Japanese care about being able to comfortably communicate with the other party. There's a reason why communication between the JP side (management etc.) and the EN side (both management and talents) is always such a disaster: the Japanese just aren't equipped with the ability and the will to bridge the gap.

>>93433770
man I'd love pandemic round 2, I was considered essential staff and had to go into the office all through the first one

>>93433964
>Or maybe FWMC, who knows.
I think FWMC might be a little too much for some of the people that vibed with Gura (and Mori to an extent)
Biboo would have slotted in just fine though

>>93445261
I don't get the whole "biboo is the new gura replacement" thing. Frankly biboo has nothing on Gura when it comes to wit, not to mention singing. She does stream the hardest out of EN so she does have that going for her.

>>93433964
>FWMC
Would be huge but not Gura huge, they have the same appeal to the core audience but theyre a little too much for the casuals
>Biboo
I think she'd actually do relatively worse as a SEA who can only offer streams, she would have more subs but is better positioned as a later hire who actually streams juxtaposed with lazy whores who dont
>Nerissa
would be more popular but not significantly so, frankly just isnt the talent Mori is and I say that as a Mori hater
>Shiori
akin to early flop hires in JP like Mel/Roboco/Aki, maybe she'd be good behind the scenes/nepohiring like Mel was before she got fired though

>>93445318
I dunno about wit, but lots of people watch(ed) Gura because she's a nerdy white millennial-coded girl, not a nerdy Asian zoomer-coded girl.
There's gonna be some overlap but it's smaller than people make it out to be.

I think a lot of this thread is boiling down to "can any EN member top Gura and Calli" and it seems the answer is no.

>>93445664
Gura is just naturally pretty charismatic and stumbles into virality due to being fairly in tune with running memes
Mori just came from the go with insane music output that no one after has been able to match, even when having full company funding behind them (IRyS)

>>93445486
I understand people not remembering since she really only streamed for like 6 months total but Gura actually is a top entertainer well beyond any other EN talent
She's the only thing EN offers that is close to First Army + FBK/Korone etc entertainment value
Mumei is your example of "nerdy white girl" being popular and yeah she's still better than any of the asian offerings but Gura's popularity was earned, at least before she stopped caring

>>93446154
CCGG are easily better entertainers than Gura

>>93433428
Fun to think about. I imagine Mori and Kiara would have known better than to do the whole kayfabeship, with the benefit of seeing how organic relationships form. Ame just plain might not have even bothered auditioning, given she'd have more context about the demands of management to do things other than play video games. And I agree with the anon who said Gura would probably thrive if she was just walking a well-trodden path and was just "the latest big star," kind of like Pekora was in Gen 3. I don't watch Ina so I'm not sure how she'd be any different.

>>93443176
> CC or GG in place of Kiara
absolutely not. if were talking the original myth lineup, you NEED kiara in myth to make that shit work. youre talking about a woman who had to tard wrangle gura AND ame whilst her other coworkers were ina (who is way too passive to ever pull someone up for fucking around) and mori (who at the time was in ironic weeb mode and just pissing everyone off). on top of that Kiara was the most fluent in jp (i think only fwmc surpass her these days on the en side), a deep understanding of the jp idol scene and just generally one of the only talents who actually wanted to do their fucking job at the time. i dont think theres been a single talent in EN since who could handle the position she was in at the time and despite her best efforts ame still fucked off and gura still barely streams anymore anyways. and this was when management was still retarded and could barely support the girls and she still kept the group going. you put any other girl in kiaras place with the coworkers and support she had and myth falls apart within the first year.

>>93446129
Some people really have no idea how crazy it was for Mori top drop an entire EP on debut at the time. I'm pretty sure Mori single handedly outdoing all of Cover with music production without their help and only her own music contacts was what pushed Cover into doing more original songs. When she joined it was rare for a talent to even have a single original song years in. Now they often debut with atleast one or have one within a year.

>>93445235
Considering the retards who all caused the first outbreak are back in power, I wouldn't be surprised if they develop another bio weapon and allow it to infect the world.
The downside is there will be no lockdowns and they'll force everyone to just get sick and die so there's zero chance of a 2nd vtuber buff like the first pandemic.
First lockdown was great though, loved seeing the normalfags all go insane while I was in my element of just staying at home.

>>93446269
I'm not even a fan of Kiara but now I feel bad for her.

most of the new gens are so influenced by western vtuber culture it's hard to imagine what would they be like starting from fresh

>>93446482
bro i literally got paid welfare during the pandemic. govt paid me like $1900 aud a fortnite to just stay the fuck home for a year. ate so much takeaway, played so many videogames, went on so many nightwalks and it was legit the chillest year of my life. normies are so fucking gay they act like it was some traumatic event that permanently scarred them for life (which id only agree with if you lost a close loved one but nothing happened to me so yah).

>>93446534
To put things in perspective, remember that discord leak thing from the nijiEN?
HoloEN had one too around the time.
Only instead of catty gossip, it was just a page of Kiara desperately trying to wrangle the girls into finishing some recordings and line up their schedules for a collab, which Gura/Ina/Ame I think weren't responding.

>>93445408
i actually think Nerissa is more talented than Mori, but her songs are just boring. Like she can actually sing but her songs do nothing for me. Mori songs sound fucking awful but theyre actually somewhat unique in the vtubing space and for some reason japs love her shit so much so she actually does incredibly well.

>>93446697
I'm agreeing with you, but no way they do that again if we have another pandemic.

>>93446697
Yeah it was an amazing time. Cities devoid of people are amazing, urban walking hasn't been the same ever since for me.

>>93446732
oof

>>93446754
Nerissa is, and I mean this as nicely as I can, a basic bitch. She caters to a simple crowd as a midwestern white girl and it works for her, but she's never going to push the envelope in any meaningful way.

>>93446802
yeah, while I would have preferred to get to work from home, walking through the mostly empty city was nice

>>93437991
And Council flopped hard. So what’s your point?

The reality is that Myth was a talented gen full of successful content creators before they even applied for holo. They were probably the cream of the crop at the time, sans a few of the girls (and guy) who would go on to form VShojo.

All this anti-myth sentiment is predicated on their recent conduct and performance but their influence in the vtubing sphere and their explosive early success was deserved. This thread reeks of malding SEAs.

>>93446369
even though RIP is kind of a shitty song that even mori doesn't like anymore, how perfect it was for the moment really cannot be understated. that shit got like 10+ million views in a month because of how out of left field and crazy it was. non-holo fans were expecting a bunch of kawaii demure idols, and there is no one from any gen since who could've put out a song both as "unexpected" as RIP was at the time while also being accessible enough to break through both in english AND japanese markets

the fact she did all that while working a full time teaching job and animating MVs on the side is fucking insane too, by the way.

>>93446844
>>93446951
take it to /pol/ retards

>>93446890
This post reeks of overly defensiveness. Most of this thread has been pretty tame with fair amounts of praise and criticism for myth, yet you're too stupid and triggered to have bothered actually reading any of it.

>>93447050
weirdly polite thread, two mfs above even apologised to each other for arguing.

>>93439153
Suck shit bitch. The soul that myth has can never be touched by any group you claim has better chemistry. Promise faggots got absolutely raped after claiming for years that they had better chemistry than Myth. Turns out they hate each other and they don’t talk offline at all.

The struggle that Myth has endured together has brought them closer than any other vtubing gen or group out there. Kill yourself.

>>93443502
>perfection
>FWMC

>>93446858
shes a midwestern white girl with a cute voice and a phat ass. what i wouldnt give to have her ride my dick reverse cowgirl while i see that carvers fuelled phat ass bounceing on my dick

>>93444581
Than everyone but Myth would have been fucked in that situation

>>93446973
It's relevant because without the pandemic and resulting lockdown, there's zero chance Myth would have the explosive growth they enjoyed. It was a once in a lifetime event no one else will get since there will never be another lockdown even if another global pandemic hits.
If Myth were 4th gen, they'd probably pull the same numbers as Justice because it's not just about your talent and skill, but when your opportunity is.

>>93447312
The global pandemic is relevant to Myth's growth, not fauci or the american government.

>>93447232
Maybe, but council/promise went through a lot of shit too and came out somewhat unscathed with four out of six members still here.

>>93447513
Take it to /pol/ retard

>>93447551
Tell that to
>>93447398

>>93433428
A Gen 4-5 Myth would have followed a similar trajectory but with much lower viewership. The Promise would have lost even more members if they had been the first generation, Kronii would have already left, and Mumei and Bae would have burned out, similar to Gura and Ame.
From Advent, only Biboo and the Dogs would remain relevant. Nerissa wouldn’t have even made it into the selection, or if she did, it would have been separate from her original Gen, joining as part of a singing group like Irys.
Justice would be the lowest-ranked generation, and it’s already clear that Elden Ring Bloodflame’s career isn’t going as it should. GG is a degenerate who would do anything for attention, CC would represent the Germans instead of Kiara, and Raora would have higher viewership than she does now, but everyone would only visit her streams for her lewd artwork and her italian accent.
Gura would make a significant impact, just like Fuwamoco. Gura’s unique voice tone and gremlin personality would likely generate similar popularity. I can’t comment much on Mori because I think rap music is crap, and she hasn’t caught my attention much. Maybe her TTRPG streams were good.
Kiara would focus on being the number one German Hololive idol and would likely start with a completely different approach from her current characteristics. She wouldn’t be a faggot magnet with her Yuri bait and perhaps she’d develop other personality traits.
Ina would have a lot of antis because, during her first collab with Raora, she’d showcase how fast she can draw, sparking months of drama and coping over claims like, "But Raora is better anyway! She can draw big boobs from the most sexual angles!!!" Ina would end up quitting after a year due to Raora’s toxic fans constantly attacking her.
Ame wouldn’t even start, as the whole thing would seem like a waste of time to her, with no return on investment. Instead, someone else might take her place, maybe one of the big indies closely associated with Hololive.

>>93433428
I think they'd flop and fans would be disappointed

>>93447573
>GG is a degenerate who would do anything for attention
You lost me here, cause that's the exact opposite of what she actually does. The rest of post is meh and cringe at best.

>>93434420
This.
Most anons don’t agree with me, but imo it was really lucky to have Mori and Kiara in the first gen. Girls in other gens would have graduated immediately after they earned first 1M and become an independent tuber and it must have been a tradition of EN.

>>93447573
>The Promise would have lost even more members if they had been the first generation, Kronii would have already left
Into the trash your entire post goes with this shit take.
With how assertive Kronii can be and was willing to burn through shit managers, she would have somehow ended up with Jenma like Kiara did and be in the same sitution where she is now.

>>93447788
I don’t know GG that well, but based on what YouTube has shown me so far, she’s kissing feet and biting other people’s butts. Over the past week, YouTube recommended three collab clips of her. In two of them, she was harassing CC, and in one, she was harassing Mori,and her personality during the Minecraft collab gave the impression that she’s a loud type. Based on this, I haven’t formed a very good impression of your oshi.

>>93448014
She's not even, I've just actually watched collabs with her in them and it doesn't take many to know you're talking out your ass.

>>93448003
If you don’t like my answer, then what do you think would be the fate of Promise if Omega had debuted the first generation? I’m sure the situation would have been worse.

>>93448014
>harassing
Are you autistic? Genuinely asking.

>>93448081
Your assertions are irrelevant because you assume Kronii would leave, let alone be the first to leave.

>>93444771
You're looking over the fact that Moris Japanese is absolutely fucking trash.

>>93448076
As I said, this is the opinion I’ve formed about her. It doesn’t automatically mean I’m right. However, so far, YouTube has only recommended videos of her kissing feet. The other thing is that this post isn’t about whether GG is a degenerate or not, it’s about how Myth would function.

>>93448136
So you think Kronii would still be a member of Hololive. I see. But we’re talking about Myth right now, not your oshi. Do you want to contribute to the topic?

>>93448306
You're the one that made the claim
>The Promise would have lost even more members if they had been the first generation, Kronii would have already left
And got refuted based on Kronii's actions, now you're trying to weasel away instead of manning up to being wrong. why is that?

>>93448306
Are you autistic? Genuinely asking.

>>93433428
I think it's an interesting thought experiment trying to build the perfect gen 1 out of current members.
I think Shiori in there would help, as a vtubing veteran with some shit corpo experience. However it's possible since Cover was shittier back then, she'd just have quit early.

>>93448356
Primarily because I genuinely don’t know Kronii or GG well enough to give an analysis of them. I have no issue with them, in fact, having known Kronii for longer, I even like her. My statements weren’t meant to be against them personally, nor was that my intention. I simplified things to get to the topic, the Myth, as quickly as possible.
That said, based on Kronii’s time capsule letter, I think she might be graduating in the future.

>>93448539
>Primarily because I genuinely don’t know Kronii or GG well enough to give an analysis of them.
Yet you felt the need to make assumptions about them that were totally off base. This is why people will not take you seriously. Also. >>93448379

>>93448598
I don’t care what others think of me, I want to stick to the topic, which is about Myth. The other gens are only mentioned briefly to better illustrate the holoEN situation in a scenario where Myth, as a new generation,debut. Contrary to my expectations, we’re not talking about the topic again. Instead, I’m arguing with an outraged Clock about their oshi in a made-up thought experiment scenario.

>Resorts to personal attacks
And you wonder why no one is taking you seriously.

>>93448423
>I think it's an interesting thought experiment trying to build the perfect gen 1 out of current members.
Huh, I could see a thread for this.

>>93447491
>four out of six members still here.

That does not fit the definition of unscathed.

>>93448423
>build the perfect gen 1 out of current members
Mori, Gura, FWMC, Shiori, Fauna

>>93449073
That's why I put "somewhat" before "unscathed"

everyone here is ignoring the MASSIVE elephant in the room. what the fuck does a different myth gen do in regards to holostars? how the first gen of any region treats male collabs sets the tone for all the gens to follow. since HoloID and HoloPJP always did male collabs, its become the norm. but mori and kroni collabing with stars was a huge blindside for many and it signaled to all following gens that collabbing with the boys is a great way to fuck your career up and lose viewers. if advent, justice, promise or council are the first gen, how do they each approach holostars and potential male collabs? my personal opinion is that advent is the only gen that doesnt male collab at all and sets the precedent that male collabs will not be a thing. FWMC seem way too business savvy and would immediately realise that male collabs would hurt their viewership. Biboo never really male collabed on her PL as far as im aware. Shiori possibly would, but falls in line with her group. Nerissa is the wild card here, i do not know how she plays it out, but i assume if the others decide no male collabs, she follows suit.

>>93449107
cringe

>>93449107
why do you think about dudes so much

>>93448857
Every gen needs:
1. One or more consistent skilled streamers to take over time slots: need to be good at yapping, playing fotm games etc.
2-3. La creatividad + tard-wrangler/the person who gets shit organized and done OR la creatividad who gets shit organized and done + tard-wrangler/gen's momma.
4. A hard-working and marketable musician is a good idea given it's hololive, but a strong gen without a break-out musician can just crank out gen-wide music content and be fine.
5. Wildcard.
Nobody can get flaky and disappear like Shion or Ayame did. You're excused from streaming less if you have your music career, like Suisei. Those who graduated are not eligible. "Solo acts" who're visibly more concerned with their own career rather than gen unity are bad picks.
Personally, I'd go for Autofister + Biboo + Shiori/Mori + Ina/Nerissa.

Alternatively, with graduates permitted, you do it geographically and put all the white girls who don't wanna move to Japan into one basket and put all the JP wannabes into another:
Gura, Ame, Fauna, Mumei, Nerissa
Ina, Kronii, GG, Shiori, Biboo
FWMC, IRyS, Bae, Mori
CC, ERB, Kiara, Raora

>>93450162
>GG
>JP wannabe
couldn't be further from the truth but ok

>>93450162
>Ame
>white

>>93450162
>Gura,Ame,Fauna,Mumei,Nerissa
almost had it but i actually feel like the girls in that gen are too "edgy" for nerissa if that makes any sense. like she wouldnt be able to match their energy. in that sense id swap out nerissa for mori to maintain a musician slot

>>93450556
2nd row is NA Asians
3rd row is the wannabes + IRyS
>>93450622
Nah, she gets along with Fauna and Mumei incredibly well. She's like the dorky, but curious normie girl who got co-opted into the nerds' circle.

>>93450711
ah, gotcha

>>93450711
funny enough Nerissa is bigger nerd than Fauna or Mumei

>>93449107
Advent care about their careers and how much money they can make long term. The only EN members who ever collabed with any males had ulterior motives (that sounds nefarious but I don’t mean it to be) and were willing to risk their bottom line. There are plenty of holos who came before Tempus who never so much as hinted at the existence of stars.

The only holo post starsEN who would try to interact with them even more if they debuted earlier is Liz. I don’t think anything changes regarding male collabs or the public facing relationship between holos and stars if you swap in most any other girls for some of the founding myth members.

>>93450771
For streamers I think vibes are more important than the actual power level.

>>93433428
The myth designs are very iconic which would help in any gen. I wonder if Ame would have given up if she had CC and GG as strong senpai to look up to. Same with Fauna.

>>93451033
>CC and GG as strong senpai to look up to
weird assumption for someone who have been in the company for 6 months

>>93451337
it may have been only 6 months, but you can tell just how gratefull GG is to be in hololive. girl was depressed and borderline about to end it all before she got in.

>>93451337
True but there's no denying that autofister hit the ground sprinting.

>>93437659
What does she offer those connections in exchange?

>>93451427
sure when everything is already set up and you just have to show up, let's see them do it from the ground up

>>93452150
you make a good point. i hadnt really thought about mental fortitude. early holoen was rough. but i mean if gura could stick it out surely anyone else could right?

>>93451427
Good chemistry is good chemistry, they would still mesh well together from the start since their general personalities line up so well.

>>93446269
>youre talking about a woman who had to tard wrangle gura AND ame
What are you on about? Kiara was missing as much as Mori was during the start of Myth because she streamed like 12 hours before Gura, Ame and Ina.
>on top of that Kiara was the most fluent in jp (i think only fwmc surpass her these days on the en side), a deep understanding of the jp idol scene and just generally one of the only talents who actually wanted to do their fucking job at the time
Again, what the fuck are you talking about? Do what job? Gura and Ina were the ones with the deepest connections with the JP side at the time. Kiara was called kusotori and made a fool of herself in front of Pekora.
> i dont think theres been a single talent in EN since who could handle the position she was in at the time
Handle what you stupid retarded faggot? Holy shit that was an awful read. Complete historical revisionism on top of typing like a fucking ESL mongoloid shitstain.

>>93452808
meant for >>93452150

>>93452888
>ESL mongoloid shitstain
your post certainly reads like it was written by one yes

>>93446732
You retarded monkeys completely fabricated utter bullshit just from one contextless screenshot.

>>93453063
>You retarded monkeys completely fabricated utter bullshit just from one contextless screenshot.
/vt/ banner

>>93451408
>but you can tell just how gratefull GG is to be in hololive
No, you can't. Literally nothing is ever wrong with anyone before like their second anniversary. Except Sana. You Advent babies and Justice toddlers haven't even been tested yet.

>>93451427
You mean like Gurame? I don't get it. Are you retards actually new and just assuming anything you're seeing now is super out of the ordinary from Myth because you weren't there?

>>93453268
>Advent babies and Justice toddlers
wouldnt they be the other way around

>>93452888
if you genuinely dont think kiara was holding myth together early on and youve actually bought into vt's retarded "orange woman bad" shitposting, all i can say is good luck and watch streams.

>>93453439
I was there for the start of myth you troglodyte, Gurame was great for the time we had it until it became more sparse and ended. I never said CCGG was out of the ordinary but it did get me back into EN because it's on the same level of chemistry.

>>93453826
For the time. Like six months into debut kind of "for the time?" What's with this weird shit of comparing things at completely different timescales?

>>93453507
I genuinely don't think the person that was missing most of the time because she was asleep when all of her other genmates were streaming was holding Myth together.

>>93433652
Fpbp

>>93433428
ok

>>93433428
Hard to say

Here's a really easy comparison. There's a bit of seething and complaining about how much JP related things FWMC do and it sometimes bleeds into the chat/their comments/twitter. I honestly don't think they'd ever be able to handle the amount of shit Kiara got during 2020 and early 2021 when she would speak Japanese often and did collabs with JP girls frequently. Back then there's be a bumch of people just sitting around in chat yelling about her speaking Japanese, comments all over the place about it, and just because there were a lot more eyes meant there was a lot more negativity going around too. That's one small piece of the puzzle for a ton of things that Myth had to deal with that Advent and Justice, groups who came into an 'established norm' will never have to think about.

>>93462029
Kiara really carried things, yeah

>>93444623
>Kiara was supposed to be a JP before Polka took her spot
That rrat is so dead its decaying skeleton is passed around collectors as an antique.

>>93436283
>>93436957
>>93437198
you catalog ultraretards demonstrate more and more that you don't watch a single stream and instead loosely base your expectations of a vtuber entirely on cringeworthy headcanons. anyone who's actually bothered to watch and engage with FUWAMOCO would understand they are extremely anti-conflict and would rather kill themselves and each other than to actually acknowledge, let alone engage, in any sort of discussion related to drama. they will ignore $100+ superchats if that's what it takes. they would not voice a single opinion regarding the situation in public. if the cover building were to start burning down and the entire Myth were stuck inside it slowly burning to death they would not stop their stream and they would not read the superchats mentioning it.

>>93433428
Kiara would still be the runt

>>93433428
It would have done way worse because ame was not only their tech support but event coordinator, without her a lot less stuff would have been achieved.

>>93450162
>Alternatively, with graduates permitted, you do it geographically
>Gura, Ame, Fauna, Mumei, Nerissa
>Ina, Kronii, GG, Shiori, Biboo
>FWMC, IRyS, Bae, Mori
>CC, ERB, Kiara, Raora
This would actually make a ton of sense, and if managed at all it would be a end to deadhours forever. The first two groups could stream from 10AM JST to like 6PM JST. The third group could stream from 6PM JST through to 2AM JST, which is 6PM CET. And the euro group could stream from 2AM JST to 10 AM JST.

>>93462029
>I honestly don't think they'd ever be able to handle the amount of shit Kiara got during 2020 and early 2021
Other talents would have thrown in the towel around the point when assholes were sending cat gore to her on twitter.

>>93433428
This was five years ago, let it go already

>>93465459
More like groups 1 and 2: from 700 JST (FST) to around 1500 JST (Kronii usually streams the latest of the bunch and ends around 1500). IRyS usually goes online at around 1200 JST and sometimes streams until like 1800. Actually I don't think any of the ENs living in Japan stream at peak JST hours which is 1900 to 2300 give or take.

>>93452888
>Again, what the fuck are you talking about? Do what job?
nta and i'm several hour late, but anon. Come on. You watched the streams, right? I won't say she was good at it but she was the only EN who treated streaming like a job and treated Myth like a unit. In early collabs you have Ina, Ame, and Gura being social spergs in the background, Kiara trying and failing to lead (but at least trying) and Mori... I don't even remember what she was like, honestly, but I have the feeling she at least tried. Both had other issues, of course. Kiara was the least mentally stable which reared its head on multiple streams, and the entire cringe Pekora arc that makes me feel bad just from proximity.
I don't want to sound like one of the /jp/ holdouts but early Myth became some of the most popular vtubers on the planet and still didn't understand that it was a job, and that they might have to actually try and do things like talk to each other in collabs and make things happen in collabs. She might not always have succeeded, but Kiara was really the only one who even tried.

>>93446754
yes being a Talent means bringing something to the table, it does mean just being a technically good singer. This is why Irys failed as a vsinger but is ok as a streamer
Nerissa in Myth wouldve got some people with song translations (and she probably wouldve done more of them) but it's just not comparable to Mori the wigger doing shitty raps

>>93433428
Virality was pretty much guaranteed, but what set Myth apart wasn't their debuts but their ability to keep churning out their own flavor of content without any real company support. 2020 and 2021 were a dark era where everything was talent-driven, almost no links to the JP branch, and no 3D in sight.
Mori was the entire driving force behind her songs up to her record deal and even kicked the ass of her UMG producers, no one else is anywhere close to her output. To this day there isn't a talent like Gura in all of vtubing who combines memeability with singing, and her 2020 and 2021 were the best years of her career productively. Kiara basically manages her own music production group and has always been pushing her own work forward even against the company sometimes. Ame brought us 3D tomfoolery untouched by Cover's fax machines. Even Ina, who has deliberately cultivated the image of being chill and lazy, is an absolute monster in her own specialty who doesn't need anything from Cover to shine. Myth group projects like Myth or Treat or Non-Fiction just didn't happen with other gens. Sure, everyone got their Cover-mandated gen song, but only Myth kicked off an extra batch.
Looking at later gens, we're only now starting to see talents who can push content along without relying on the company to hold their hand. Remember how Council's original songs all got super delayed even they showed them in progress before debut? Remember all of Irys's musical career? Bae took about six months to get settled but she's probably the best example of a self-starter in that era. In the Advent+ era, at least now there is Nerissa who can multi-track song projects, Shiori/Gigi/CC pushing the crafted "creative" streams, a pro artist in Raora, and FWMC who go hard on the character side. But in 2020 would any of them have been the self-starters Myth were? I'm not sure, you'd have to pick the very best of them across the other three gens and presume their talent was ready back then. And that's setting aside streaming skill and consistency, I'm talking just about who won't implode from experiencing 2021 levels of Cover "support".

Gigi, Bae, Nerissa, Bijou, Ceci, maybe Raora? Is that a usable 6-person "Myth"? Who's the viral meme talent? Where's the orisong spam? Is Bae going to translate every JP collab? Would they be able to self-organize full gen projects? Were any of these people ready in 2020 without following OG Myth's example? It raises a lot of difficult questions.

>>93435847
>cover was in the wrong for siding with china
Am I remembering the incident wrong? Yeah they suspended Coco and Haachama for a while but immediately did a 180 and fired their entire CN branch. Sounds to me like Cover ultimately sided against China.

>>93465592
damn, I forgot about that

>>93467796
It was the fact that they suspended their talents at all and forced them to apologize for merely saying Taiwan that pissed off japs so bad that they pretty much had no choice but to pull out of China and dissolve the CN branch. Not to mention how they pretty much blacklisted Coco from any and all events or support after she came back, basically guaranteeing her eventual graduation.

>>93468706
>Not to mention how they pretty much blacklisted Coco from any and all events or support after she came back, basically guaranteeing her eventual graduation
It's debatable to this day if Coco was given the blackroom treatment or not. We do know that she continued to collab with members she was close with like Kanata and Suisei, even though she never had one with her EN kouhais till the end. Kson never said anything negative about her time in Hololive afaik.
I might be misremembering this but I recall either Coco or Kson mentioning that she deliberately distanced herself from others in the company in order not to bring them any trouble. Remember that zhang trolls were still harassing her as late as June 2021. My guess is that she excluded herself on purpose to avoid any unwanted trouble until finally deciding that leaving was the best option for everyone.

>>93433428
One month of IRyS being the only member of HoloEN? Neat!

>>93433428
?

>>93454519
>ESL monkey is a newfag

>>93469047
Kson distancing herself is pretty much confirmed at this point. Chink trolls were swarming like crazy around anyone who supported her or collabed with her. She didn’t want to be a bother to anyone else by unintentionally sucking the bugs on them.

>>93439153
>Myth chemistry is fucking dogshit dude.
Myth went through Hell with management making a string of horrible decisions in 2022. Cover almost made the same mistake as many Japanese companies and caused major damage to their EN branch since they put someone in charge who didn't have any understanding of western culture. The first HoloEN director almost caused multiple graduations which is the reason they had issues with full gen collabs. Advent managed to avoid the model redesign fights that Myth and Council went through in their early years. Advent was lucky in that so far they are on good terms with management so they don't have any issues that would interfere with full gen collabs.

>>93434866
Thing is, Holo picks 4views. The RMs for ERB, Nerissa and Fuwamoco were not nobodies. Hell, the twins alone were infamous due to the events that transpired at their previous gig. Both Rissa and Caitlin are pretty big in their respective fields. And as I'm typing this I forgot to mention Shiori, who was literally a pioneer in the ENVtubing sphere You could argue Biboo, Gigi and CC were 2-3 views, but they were outliers who aced the test. Its take a certain pedigree to get into Holo, and Holo wants that. I do think Gura would consider Holo, but I say that because I do think of Gura as a shark idol. Yes, I know Gura is famous for her streams, but its quite she's putting more emphasis in her idol activities like singing and dancing. Conversely, I feel that a hypothetical latter Gura would be more like Shiori save that, unlike Shiori, this hypothetical Gura may have joined Hololive specifically toa dvance in her vtubing singer career like Rissa and ERB

>>93446890
Council flopped because Irys was not included earlier, which she should have been. Promise was a step in the right direction, then SOMETHING happened with Fauna.
Still, Promise is still around at 4 talents so I'm not counting them out yet.

>the cream of the crop at the time, sans a few of the girls (and guy) who would go on to form VShojo.

Honestly? I would consider Irys to be part of that cream as well. As one anon comment mentioned a while back, Irys outranks everyone else in her gen. Its a miracle she wasn't picked earlier, but its true that there was a hesitancy regarding starting an EN branch (and til now Cover does not fully support its EN side)

>>93467764
>It raises a lot of difficult questions.
What makes it difficult for me is they picked five people willing to jump into the unknown and more or less commit, which is a quality I'm unsure if the others afterward possess.

>>93448423
Irys, Gura, Fuwamoco, Ame.
Take a step further, I would put Biboo, Cecilia, Roca Rourin, Selen/Dokibird and Mumei as an ideal Gen 2 to follow Gen 1.

>>93449426
The fact remained that the initial success of Luxiem and Omega's direction of 2021 & 2022 heavily affect HoloEN back in those days. All the fujobaiting and stars-promoting put a heavy toll on Myth and Promise.

>>93449107
Honestly speaking? And while I hate to admit - I could see Biboo as being one of those who collab with the Stars. Along Nerissa and Shiori. It may sound weird but, and assuming some talent like Calli & Bae was in Gen 2, Stars-pushing would have happened. And don't get me started on ERB. As to why I mention Biboo specifically, as much as I see her as gfe-coded and very much like Gura, I feel that she's way too chummy with Calli and Bae. She could easily be coaxed into the "Stars-side" the way Kronii was had she debuted earlier.

>>93433428
gura still has the most iconic design in hololive history maybe vtubing history

>>93467764
>Who's the viral meme talent?

Honestly, Biboo. But even current Biboo only has her abilities because she was inspired by Myth.

>Where's the orisong spam?

I would say, Fuwamoco. They're been doing a bunch of orisongs, and I could see them keep going.

>Is Bae going to translate every JP collab?
See Fuwamoco and my only personal pick: Irys. I think Irys should have debuted earlier. Maybe.

But indeed, 2020 was a very different time. Aside from the lack of support but as well as the insane COVID buff, its crazy to think about those times.

>>93475135
ANon, its not all that special. Gura shares four other identical sisters who look exactly like her. What made Gura work was not just the design, it was also her talents at entertaining AND singing. Its a whole package: pretty looks alone won't cut it. Consider vtubers who have amazing models but a dogshit personality or attitude.

>>93475450
Its not all that special, thats the point

>>93473340
Enter the seething redditor

>>93446154
>>93445486
>>93445318
The reason why Gura has that "wit" is because she was legit trained as an entertainer. Its something she herself mentioned from time to time. She had worked on kids shows, and thus knows how to read a situation and be entertaining. Its not an easy skillset to develop: anybody can stream, but not anybody can be entertaining as a streamer. Then there's the singing element, which I too agree on.
But Biboo: its true that Biboo still has ways to learn. But I think she's getting there. Gura has been mostly tune out of recent trends, something that Biboo is now doing. There was a time when Gura was the "trendy" memelord in EN, but Biboo has been doing that now. And of course, Biboo streams.
I can't really see Biboo as a "Gura replacement" because, and to me, Gura is irreplaceable. Gura's achievements and abilities alone make her irreplaceable. But it would be more interesting to think of people who could "equal" Gura. And no, I don't think someone like Shondo, whose overly edgy, would equal Gura. Nor Henya, whose not interested in the kind of rigour required to Holo. But Biboo, Biboo is willing to grind hard in both gaming and the idol journey. And while Gura has almost shifted entirely into "face of the company" position, Biboo is grinding to reach the level Gura has. Its why, to me, Biboo is Gura's equal. They have many differences, but they also have some unique similarities.

>>93446269
Kiara's not my favorite, but i've never really appreciated this until now. Mori's great now, but had two years of growing pains and self doubt before getting into this position. Myth would be very different without Kiara's efforts in the first years.

>>93446369
I think one of the things that Mori does that she doesn't get enough credit for is that she writes her own lyrics, and because she's EFL, they don't come across as corny. I think out of all of EN, only Nerissa does the same, and her output is far lower.
IRyS is a great singer but her songs were all ESL slop. "I am hope. In a world without hope. What should I do? I should bring hope."

>>93475887
On a smaller note Gura is actually pleasant to listen to, whereas Biboo's forced cutesy kiddy speaking mannerisms literally makes my stomach churn after a while. If she knocked that shit off I'd watch her and I know she can because she reeled it in for Gigi's halloween murder mystery event, which was the only time I could stand her.

>>93475887
there are some things you just cant teach, she has a very good sense of timing and is capable of quick thinking on her feet
any degen can read stuff like "ive lost gallons to you" on stream but being able to answer with a creative response is not something youre going to pick up at the nickelodeon training camp

>>93476362
I have the personal belief that Gura would not have fully accepted the idol mentality had Kiara not been around. Out of Myth, heck, all of EN, Kiara was the most idol-coded due to her background. Fuwamoco would be next followed by Irys, but Irys qas more known for utaite while Fuwamoco never secured a genuine idol gig, only a smal one. But Kiara was an actual idol, though failed, before Holo. I feel that it was her friendship with Kiara that got Gura to see that she had far more potential beyond being a Nyanners-lite.

>>93476638
Its subjective. I feel that Gura also has the occasional forced cutesy kuddy speaking mannerisms, and she domtimes does it worse than Biboo.

>>93476664
>nickelodeon training camp
You'd be surprised. There's a reason why most of the Mouseketeers had amazing pop careers as adults. Theres "teaching", and then there's actual teaching.

>>93475335
>A bunch of orisongs
What?

>>93476664
You can absolutely train to be better at creative quick thinking anon, it's not an exclusive and unobtainable skill.

>>93476772
if she's playing up a bit or joke sure, but biboo has it turned on 24/7

>>93477035
Thats cos she streams

>>93465858
Probably the best example of that is that drawing collab on Ina's channel early on where Ina, Ame and Gura barely tried engaging in conversation

>>93477282
>TRINITY BASED
>FUCK MORI AND KIARA!
I'm so glad that shit died years ago.

>>93475039
Honestly, I think the twins would be the ONLY members of Advent to not Homocollab if Mori/Bae/Kronii/Ame didn't try it first and have it blow up in their face. Stars pushing would still happen because Omegas are gonna Omega, and I would bet money he told all of Myth/CouncilRyS "Don't worry, the EN audience is different. Everything will go great, look at NijiEN!" Shiori, Nerissa, and Biboo will go "What could possibly go wrong?". Afterwards, I doubt Nerissa's mental health could take the shit Kronii got flung at her for homocollabing so it might cause her to leave altogether, Shiori would truck along but her career would never quite recover, and I can't really say what would happen to Biboo because we have not really seen how she deals with that kind of stress.

>>93477227
Doesn't matter if I can't standing listening to any of it.

>>93479478
Thats fair. Im just saying if Gura streamed as much as Biboo did she too would end up making it a part of her personality.

Any other gen would not start out as strong because a huge huge huge part of it was the idea of "wtf look how talented they are" pushed by Ina/Gura/Mori

No other gen has 3 people who are actually "talented" at something. Don't even bother denying it. The other gens do have people who are maybe better streamers overall, or definitely get along better.

>>93433428
>Would any other EN gen have been more successful than Myth if they had been the first?
I dont think its fair to compare a modern Gen to someone who came later and had more time to practice. The EN scene was pretty dire at that point, criticize Myth all you want, but its amazing how much better they were than most people /here/ thought they'd be

>>93437143
Kiara wasn't just a jp speaker familiar with idols she was literally a former idol. A foreign idol is incredibly rare to come by so that made her more than earn her spot. on top of that she was also a popular streamer on niconico back in the day.

>>93433428

>>93433428
>Would any other EN gen have been more successful than Myth if they had been the first?
no

>>93433428
Better than niji

>>93433428
Myth have the most disparate personalities and talents. That translates to bad chemistry in full collabs, but it means broader appeal because most streams are solo. The first gen would always have been the most successful because of Covid buff, but they wouldn’t have reached the peaks myth did.

Myth would be much worse as a Gen 4 because they wouldn’t need that shotgun spread when there are already more members. Gura would probably be better off mentally though.

>>93433428
I think of the 5, only Ina is the replacable one because good artists are plenty available.
>Gura was irreplacable
>Kiara was a tardwrangler, multilingual, idol experience
>Ame was creatividad, and really helped with the 3D when they couldn't travel
>Mori was a rapper, who's still pretty unique in the vtuber sphere.

>>93433428
>How well would Myth fare if they had come out as Gen 4 instead?
Still popular but not the revolutionaries they're seen as.
>Would any other EN gen have been more successful than Myth if they had been the first?
Maybe in popularity. I don't think any other combination of girls could have tanked what early Myth went through and set the soil that would allow Advent and Justice to happen.

>>93444553
>HoloX getting a 3D debut 7-8 months in
>Meanwhile Myth was still waiting on being able to do a showcase and zero signs of CouncilRyS 3D besides it being an inevitability (same with ID while we're at it)
2022 was such a dire year man.