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>>39124919
Previous thread >>39053633

>>39124928
Is the life of Moses worth reading for our purposes? I remember starting it and it seemed like like Mr Gregory was just restating the events of Exodus. Not much exegesis or whatever going on

>>39124158
There's a balance that should be found between suspending your beliefs about God until you meet Him and making inferences based upon what we know of Him and our own morality that He wrote on our hearts. As much as it is fair to assume that if Eternal Conscious Torment is true, then there must be a reason we're unaware of that makes it make moral sense (I haven't heard a single argument from my fellow man for it that does, that's for certain), I believe it is also fair to assume that ultimately God will save all, and evil will be totally extinguished, rather than Satan eternally claiming some for his own.

The difficult here, for me, in sharing such a belief is that many are so used to the idea of ECT that if they came to believe in ultimate restoration, they might lose their drive for spreading the gospel. This would have a negative effect both if ECT was true and if it wasn't (eternal torment in the former case, prolonged purgation in the latter case). On the other hand, you have many people for whom the idea of Eternal Conscious Torment is a sort of final barrier to faith. I was convinced (and open-minded) enough to come to Christ regardless of that barrier, but reading about the possibility of the ultimate restoration helped me to overcome it.

>>39124990
>then there must be a reason we're unaware of that makes it make moral sense
What they would probably say is, it's true because the scripture says so. The logical reasoning would be that sin offends God in a deeply transcendental way that we cannot understand, as we are not perfect beings, so we are desensitized to the full evilness of sin. Furthermore, people would end up in hell by their own choice. You look at "intellectuals" like Dawkins or sam Harris who say they wouldn't believe even if Christianity were true, and they use sort of the same argumentation you're using against eternal damnation. Something like "the old testament is just too horrifying to believe". Most nonbelievers aren't quite this explicit, but the attitude is there if you have conversations with them (many people who think they're Christian share a similar attitude towards other faiths tbf)
As for
>The difficult here, for me, in sharing such a belief is that many are so used to the idea of ECT that if they came to believe in ultimate restoration, they might lose their drive for spreading the gospel.
The NPC response is that purgatorial hell is still going to be brutal beyond imagination and could last for 1000 years, who knows? The big brain response is that it doesn't matter and we should be compelled to accept Christ as a historical and spiritual truth, regardless of the punishment, simply because it is true. We only plant seeds anyways, God gives the growth

>>39124919
Videos on Gnosis, its various types (SPG, UPG & VPG) and Gnosticism:

https://youtu.be/0F7knBtLsNs
https://youtu.be/260L-DEZVQ0
https://youtu.be/diHf_Tup6tE

>>39125167
>What they would probably say is, it's true because the scripture says so.
To which you could respond that the same seems to be true for ultimate restoration, and that there were many in the early church who seemed to hold such a view.
>sin offends God in a deeply transcendental way that we cannot understand
Would His offense be deeper than His love?
>Furthermore, people would end up in hell by their own choice.
And this prevents God from saving them from it somehow? I understand He respects human free will, which is why we must choose to follow Him, but surely there is a way to get through to the lost, even in hell?
>Something like "the old testament is just too horrifying to believe"
I'm very familiar with the constant "oh yeah well what about THIS verse in the old testament huh???" attacks, but we have (sometimes only a little) historical context for such things, and we can also fall back on God's good character.

What I'm trying to say is, if ECT turns out to be false doctrine, then I want to be very careful around it. I don't want to assume God's character is less than it is. I have every reason to believe God will ultimately save all, and if it turns out that isn't the case, I know there'll be a good reason as to why (which, again, no mere man has ever been able to provide to me).

>>39125364
>Would His offense be deeper than His love?
All of God's qualities are infinite so I'm not sure what you mean by this. Would the application of his offense be greater than his love? Dont know.
>And this prevents God from saving them from it somehow? I understand He respects human free will, which is why we must choose to follow Him, but surely there is a way to get through to the lost, even in hell?
No but what prevented God from making a perfect world from the beginning and preventing Adam from eating the fruit? This is a slippery logic here.
>What I'm trying to say is, if ECT turns out to be false doctrine, then I want to be very careful around it. I don't want to assume God's character is less than it is. I have every reason to believe God will ultimately save all
I feel the same way but I think we ultimately must appeal to scripture, as the morality written on our heart is subject to corruption.

>>39125827
>No but what prevented God from making a perfect world from the beginning
I don't have a clue. But if God knows the best way to the best result, then the risk inherent in giving Adam and Eve the ability to make that choice was important in some way.
>and preventing Adam from eating the fruit?
To my understanding: His valuing the will (sovereignty) that He bestowed upon man.

I don't see how it's "slippery logic" to consider that all might eventually be drawn back to God, and while I consider leaving why ECT might be true as a mystery (different people are content to play the mystery card at different stages of their reasoning, as I did in response to that first quote) to be an option, it's ultimately something I must continue to contemplate as somebody who seeks to come to know God more closely. If our morality is bestowed upon us by God, it's good that we try to respectfully understand God's morality/morality from God's perspective. If our sins have clouded our view of morality, then this is all the more important.

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God bless yall and all of your families, both those in this life and in the next.

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Beggining my studies today, wish me luck frens