Don't look elsewhere if you're seeking the Real Christian Tradition — Orthodoxy is the Way!Why Orthodoxy?>continuity with the Early Church: Apostolic Succession preserved unbroken since the time of Christ and the Apostles>rich Liturgical Worship: Divine services filled with reverence, chant, incense, and timeless beauty>deep Spiritual Tradition: Teachings of the Church Fathers, hesychasm (prayerful stillness), and the Jesus Prayer>dogmatic Stability: Faithful to the doctrines established in the Ecumenical Councils>vibrant Community: Strong parish life, connection to local culture, and support in spiritual growth>icons: Windows to Heaven, inspiring devotion and connecting the faithful with Christ and the saints>accessible Teachings: Resources in English and many languages make Orthodox theology widely availableCore Resources for Exploring Orthodoxy:>Orthodox Wiki - General info about the Orthodox Faith and History: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Main_Page (apparently dead)Liturgical and Spiritual Life:>Sunday Divine Liturgy: Participation in the Eucharist, the heart of Christian life>Festal and Daily Cycles: Engage with the sanctity of time through services like Vespers and Matins>regular fasting periods (e.g., Great Lent, Nativity Fast) as medicine for the soul>"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner"Historical Milestones of Orthodoxy:>early Church: Apostolic Era, Nicaean Councils (1st-4th centuries)>Byzantine Era: Golden Age of Theology and Worship (4th-15th centuries)>post-schism: Endurance through East-West Schism and Ottoman Rule (11th-19th centuries)>modern Witness: Diaspora and revival in the 20th and 21st centuriesAdditional Resources:>https://www.oca.org/catechism>https://ancientfaith.com/>https://www.goarch.org/resources>https://patristicnectar.org/Let Orthodoxy illuminate your path to the fullness of the Christian faith. Embrace the timeless and unchanging truth preserved for over 2,000 years.
>>39253601that's cool in all but jesus is still the antichristso your 'religion' is just a bunch of larping clowns in dresses...
>>39253610>Christ is the antichristYou're stealing my oxygen with your nose.
>>39253601>The Greybeards are an ancient and honored order that dwell in their mountain sanctuary High Hrothgar, which is located on the highest mountain peak in Tamriel, the Throat of the World. As masters of Thu'um, or "the Voice," they live in absolute silence in order to better attune themselves to the voice of the sky. They are a peaceful order, not using their Thu'um to augment their martial skills, but to worship and honor the gods, as the "Way of the Voice" decreed.When the Greybeards speak, storms brew above High Hrothgar, and people are forced to evacuate due to the imminent danger of avalanches. When they even so much as whisper the word "Dovahkiin," it rumbles through the world, and the mountains shake.
>>39253773"An order of philosopher monks who are masters of the Way of the Voice, the Greybeards live in silent isolation atop Skyrim’s largest mountain."
Ephraim of Arizona has had\has a huge online campaign against him: this makes me think he is, actually, very based.what's the redpill about his monasteries and, in general also, ROCOR? Im from Chile--how do I even join the ROCOR Church? >also is there any reason to NOT support old calendarists in both russia and, greece?
>>39254119hey, OP, I bump your thread for my answers. Im not American but ROCOR seems strong in America, I need advice
Beautiful clothes.
you are all jews with extra steps leave x pls
>>39254727I go to an antiochian church in Tennessee. Seems alright to me. I think it’s mostly Greek and OCA that have been doing gay shit.
>>39254849Low iq response
>>39255016>>39254727they look the same bro
>>39255030Another low iq response.
can someone explain the stuff about unleavened bread and\or communion under both species? Im catholic. Do orthodox sip wine + eat bread or is it a sort of porridge, mixing bread and wine, served with a spoon? Or is the spoon just for babies (I know some orthodox churches allow babies to commune) ?
>>39254727Just go, my dear brother!
>>39255051you both worship a semetic storm god just accept your jewish
>>39255131The Orthodox Church uses leavened bread.The leaven symbolizes the Resurrection of Christ and the new life brought through His sacrifice. The prosphora (aka the bread) includes a stamped seal with a cross and the letters IC XC NIKA (Jesus Christ conquers)>mixing bread and wineThe bread and wine are consecrated together, and the two are mixed in the chalice.>served with a spoonYes, the lavida.>some orthodox churches allow babies to communeYes. infants are communed immediately after baptism and chrismation. Babies receive the Eucharist under both species, typically with a very small amount of the consecrated wine-soaked bread given on the lavida.>>39255434What is your problem with Jews, Anon? If you hate them so much, then live without the Christian Jewish morality, stupid nigger!If today you don't fuck your mother's ass and do not let your father milk your asshole, it is because of Jewish-Christian morality, your quadruped animal!If you think so bad of it, then take the fuck out of my West and go to the middle of the desert to have sex with goats, along with your Sandniggers.
There's a lot that I like about the Eastern Church and their tradition (and I would say this about many of the Christian traditions), and I would love to attend one of their churches, but there is a part of me that still struggles deeply with the idea of icons as "windows to heaven" to be kissed and bowed to, and I've heard convincing arguments/evidence that the practice is not apostolic and Nicaea 2 was rushed through as a kind of power grab.I don't believe any modern church tradition is "perfectly preserved" and entirely apostolic in all their practices, as much as I would love to. Every sect/denom seems to have their own pitfalls.>t. became a Christian this year and got thrown through the anxiety blender of "WE'RE THE TRUE CHURCH" (catholics) "NO WE ARE" (orthodox) "NO ACTUALLY CATHOLICS AND ORTHODOX AREN'T EVEN CHRISTIANS" (fundie baptists) claims for several months
>>39255458(((Jewish-Christian))) morality.
Kikes and Glowies are seething so hard at this thread. If your interested in orthodoxy go talk to a priest. They are from my total experience very chill people
>>39257014Are they open to immigrants? I've been living in Yurop since 2012, but I'm black. I'm afraid they won't respond me because I'm not a native.
>don’t look at anything else, the dogma I’ve decided is real must be real or my life is meaningless
>>39257123What does it really mean the word "real" for you, habibi?
>>39257145Everything is real. Ideas, dreams, fiction, nonfiction, it’s all just information.
>>39253761((who)) said he was Christ?
Bump best thread
>>39257031I have known a black orthodox priest, so there is definitely something in orthodoxy for you.The message of orthodox Christianity doesn't follow arbitrary "rules" such as race and nations
>>39259753>I have known a black orthodox priest......sounds like something to avoid then
>>39255501Enter a church for the community (if you have any, in my case is my family/children who I'd like for them to grow in this environment), otherwise you follow the teachings of Christ, simple as. For me, there is warmth and quiet in the orthodox church.As an orthodox myself, I've also never got along well with the kissing of icons and relics, but there are worse things to attend, so it's a thing I'm mostly willing to overlook. I KNOW for a fact no church is perfect and infallible, perhaps the things we find most okay are actually the worst, and the things we find the worst are actually okay.Who the fuck even knows? In the evening prayers of the orthodox, there is a passage (mistranslated into English) that says "have mercy on us Lord, have mercy on us, because we don't know/have any answers, so we bring this prayer to you".Basically in this world, there can not be Supreme knowledge of the Truth, we can only hope to grasp at it through the will of God, if God so wills, so we hope and pray for it. But as we stand, there is no way of knowing.
>>39259782did you know jesus 'is' the antichrist so you and your church are spiritually barren places...
Orthodoxy is the newest groyp for alt right cucks lmao theres a reason Greek and Syrian Orthodox churches dont take new comers seriously. Religious bandwagoners are cancerous.
why don't orthodox churches have Stigmatized saints, Marian visions, eucharistic miracles (bleeding\ beating pulse hosts)? why doesn't it HAPPEN in their churches? it isn't that they don't like it, it just doesn't occur.why is this? all the visions, apparitions, physical body changes (engraved symbols in the heart organ, stigmata, etc), seers, etc are catholic.
>>39260424Syriacs aren’t Orthodox.
>>39259782Yeah, that's where I'm at. No church is perfect, so I attend the one where I can practice most sincerely, and one to which I could confidently invite others. At the moment I attend a High Anglican church, and it's been good. Not perfect, but good.>perhaps the things we find most okay are actually the worst, and the things we find the worst are actually okay.It's not that I necessarily see a problem with the practice in itself (I've seen arguments for both sides, and it's something I could go either way for, like Mary's perpetual virginity or bodily assumption into heaven), but that I just couldn't feel honest in affirming it and taking part on a personal level.>Who the fuck even knows? In the evening prayers of the orthodox, there is a passage (mistranslated into English) that says "have mercy on us Lord, have mercy on us, because we don't know/have any answers, so we bring this prayer to you".>Basically in this world, there can not be Supreme knowledge of the Truth, we can only hope to grasp at it through the will of God, if God so wills, so we hope and pray for it. But as we stand, there is no way of knowing.That's been one of my main prayers since I became a Christian.
>>39261667>That's been one of my main prayers since I became a Christian.you believe in a universal source mother?
>x is the only way>y is the only way>z is the only wayHubris.
>>39261816>evagrius ponticus I'd be more sympathetic if they removed their icon veneration, which is clearly a later church development that contradicts the whole "graven image" thing. I think 90% of Orthodox laity get taken in by the spiritual aesthetic. The whole "apostolic tradition" stuff is really just lip service and they can't break a lot of it down without resorting to long and complicated mental gymnastics I think the closest mainstream Christianity that exists to the first generation of Christians is probably a bunch of Baptists doing a Bible study in some dudes garage, but such practices just don't "feel" spiritual enough for NPC minds.
>>39263116This was meant to be a standalone post, not a reply. Sorry.
>>39260424Who's talking about politics here, faggot?This is a thread about the Orthodox Church, if you really hate orthodoxy that much, you can always hide the thread. Just don't come here to talk shit about things you don't know.>>39260485>blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believedWe don't need to "see" to believe it.>>39261816>orthodoxy (from Greek: ὀρθοδοξία, orthodoxía, 'righteous/correct opinion') is adherence to correct or accepted creeds, especially in religionThere is only ONE way.
>>39264694>We don't need to "see" to believe it.said the deluded mind controlled victim>There is only ONE way.abandoning ALL abrahamism.jesus 'is' the antichrist
>>39254727why are they all FATfucking gluttonous freaks full of pride displaying royal clothing and gold crosseshow anyone can take these seriously is baffling
>>39253761>follows a kike religion>blames kikes huh, i see...
>>39263124>>39263116>instructions for proper mental state at the time of prayer >that means icons are badChristianity (orthodoxy) existed way before mass-literacy, way before the bible was written. It was at the Nicaea councils, we were there you know. You needn't be a philosopher to be a christian. Some saints were philosophers, some were illiterate. Grace made no distinction on that. Icons and visual language are how orthodoxy was spread in that era. That, and of course, the living word. We don't venerate the icons, but the saints and God which they stand for. Iconoclasm denies the incarnation. Christ was God, yet he was a man. The image of Christ is the image of God.
>>39266041look at the state of that homosexual image...imagine believing that FAGGOTRY was spiritual.
>>39266092>demon-posed fag sees faggotry everywhere he looksEver look in a mirror?
>>39266141'literally' nothing but males...'supposed' spirituality...masked HOMOSEXUALITYfaggot
>>39266041There's no trace of icon veneration before 600 ad, other then cases like evagrius and the council of elvira condemning it. >B-b-but that was a special case This is cope that was only conjectured after the fact. There is nothing about icons that can properly represent what you are venerating, namely the partaken essence of God. It is only a pretty image, and likening God's essence to an image can only diminish it.
>>39266228>can't spot the females in that image>calls others faggots>>39266228The second council of Nicaea is pretty clear on the issue: >All those childish baubles and bacchic rantings, the false writings composed against the venerable icons, should be given in at the episcopal building in Constantinople, so that they can be put away along with other heretical books. If someone is discovered to be hiding such books, if he is a bishop, priest or deacon, let him be suspended, and if he is a lay person or a monk, let him be excommunicated.>They [icons] are to be accorded greeting and the veneration of honour, not indeed the true worship corresponding to our faith, which pertains to the divine nature alone, but in the same way as this is accorded to the figure of the honourable and life-giving cross, to the holy gospels, and to other sacred offerings. In their honour an offering of incensation and lights is to be made, in accordance with the pious custom of the men of old. For the honour paid to the image passes over to the prototype, and whoever venerates the image venerates in it the hypostasis of the one who is represented.The only people who are against icons are those who deny Jesus is the incarnation of God: jews or muslims. Which one are you?
Bump
>>392665391- I'm not the person you're referring to in that first post, obviously since I'm not namefagging 2- nothing you said contradicted what I said in my post. The second council of nicea was in 700 and. Don't call me Jew or Muslim, that's poor and dishonest argumentation. But most orthos are dishonest so Adjust your views.
Hello there fellow brothers, I am an antiochian orthodox anon who needs blessings and prayers for a friend. Matt as we'll call him is in some serious spiritual trouble and needs all the help he can get. I apologize if I have interrupted any conversations. Holy God, Holy mighty, Holy immortal, have mercy on us.
>>39253601put on your armor of God brothers, use prayer as a constant active attack against demons, praise the Lord in all you do
>>39267935My mistake about the first post. I did not meant to tag you. Tough perhaps the namefag is best left untagged. They feed on attention. Pic. related is from the late 4th century. It's from a catacomb of Commodilla. Historically speaking, icons descend from the early Christian art in Rome. Tough the style did become more crystallized in Byzantine art. They are essentially icons:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/ChristPeterPaul.jpgIf, for as long Christians could speak, they spread the message of Christ, then, for as long as they could paint, they depicted it. It's how Christianity was spread and taught, to literate and illiterate alike. The Nicaea councils did not innovate, they merely canonized this. It's ironic that the most iconoclast of Christians cling so tightly to their own idiosyncrasies and reject lived experience. Ie. they cling to the letter, but not the spirit of the Word. Tell me, does you having a picture of your wife mean you're cheating on her? Can you or can you not tell the difference between the lived experience you and your wife share, and a picture of her? If your house was burning, would you save her, or the picture? If you can't answer these questions, then perhaps I understand your attitude towards icons. But then the problem lies with you, not with the icons. Images, like words, act as mere signifies to a reality that lies beyond them. They are no substitute for it, yet, as guides, they serve their purpose well. Our world would be poorer without them. Christ was God, yet He was also man. He revealed Himself to us, that we may see, and hear, and listen.
>>39253601pretty sure the true church is one that is not being shilled by anyone and not even considered a church, nor an institution.And pretty sure the drug addicts dying on the streets are closer to God than us "christians"
>>39270274Bump for discussion tomorrow. Finally taking my Christianity seriously in Orthodoxy, and while it just *feels* right for me (I actuallynfeel a calm and reverence in the chamber, as well as through the rituals), intellectually a lot of questions remain unanswered, as at least one other Anon has brought up for himself.
as someone who grew up not associated with any religion but drawn to the holy and the spiritual, the Orthodox Church was the only one that ever captivated my interests enough to voluntarily attend a church service. it was during a painful period of my life and I was comforted by beautiful singing and the overall aesthetic of the church and divine liturgy, as well as the strong sense of community practised there. I met my now ex at my first Sunday, who set me off on a three month deep exploration of the faith (this was back in 2022). I could never reconcile my aversions to certain practices nor "believe" in the Nicean creed or even holy communion however, and the more I learned about Christianity the further away I veered from it. I distance myself further now without regret, but still I respect Orthodox. As far as religions go, from the research I did at the time the Quakers were the ones who most closely resonated with my natural instinct, but also I hold in reverence the Orthodox approach as well. A delicate combination of the two could be quite deep.
>>39272631>and the more I learned about Christianity the further away I veered from itThis has been my experience 100%But for me it was the Bible. The more I read the Bible, the less inclined towards Christianity I am, to the point where I am practicing for the community around me, and not for myself. I am extremely disillusioned by the religion thought and the "need for religion". Not that the Beyond is not real, but religion is definitely not real. Many religious practices have been adapted in time either added or subtracted "on a whim" so to speak. I can understand the intentions, but many things in religion I can not agree with.Still, I respect the orthodox and what they're trying to do. I respect the small baptist communities who do Bible study in a guys basement as well. They are all meaning well and have a good inclination, that's respectable to me.The 1 thing I don't like about Christianity is how there is no martial discipline to the doctrine. There is no vitalism and no respect for the physical body. Again, I can understand the intentions and the motive behind it, doesn't mean I accept it.
>>39255458Lucy is cute, but still…
>>39268994Abloo bloo Nothing you typed is an indication that Christians venerated icons widely and with general acceptance before 600 ad. Yeah people drew art. Not veneration. Meanwhile I posted explicit examples of it being forbiddenKeep coping and lying to yourself
I don't see the issue with orthodox nor catholicism. I just find it strange how they tend to bump heads when we all follow the same Christ and preach His Gospel. This whole historical "we did this first" nonsense just causes pointless dissension and gives room for the devil to cause more division amongst members of the faith.So long as we have faith, adhere to the teachings of Jesus Christ and put them to practice, wont that make us all children of God? Why let silly things like churches get in the way of that?1 Corinthians 1:10-17A Church Divided Over Leaders10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
>>39274402Let me add to my post here because I don't want to break down anyone's faith without contributing something that builds it back up Icons and pictures may help one who is a spiritual infant, but as you mature, you will find that not associating God and his transcendal being and essence with a image will bring you closer to him. Yes God became a man but it is not Jesus flesh or appearance that we worship, it is him as God that we worship, and this is unseeable.
>>39274588It's what is in an individuals heart that matters. Not necessarily in the way we've been taught to practice the faith growing up, but in how genuine we are to Him and our faith in Him. That is what allows us to get closer to Him.
it was all made up by emperor constantine
>>39274473At the end of the day it’s a difference in Theology. Catholics have a more rigid and legalistic view of salvation and relationships with God. The orthodox are less academic and have more of a “it is what it is” mentality with the sacraments, choosing to live with the mysteries of God rather then trying to rationalize them
>>39275031I see. cool image
>>392744731 Corinthians 2:2>For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
>>392752374 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power>demonstration of the Spirit's powerthat's all that matters. Whether the Lord's Spirit works through an individual or not. Harboring His Spirit is what makes us His children.
So, what did Jesus do?
>>39275259Read the NT and learn.
>>39275267I read it, and I didn't really get it.
>>39275275You read it, but didn't learn. So study it now.
>>39275279Look. With respect, those books are really long, and hard to understand. And I don't know why you can't just explain the gist of it to me.
>>39274617A sincere heart will worship God in truth If you aren't willing to forgo ungodly practices when they are shown to be ungodly, then you are not really worshiping in truth like you think you are
>>39275289If you don't care enough to read it yourself then you won't care about what Jesus did.>>39275473>A sincere heart will worship God in truthagreed
>>39275250Agreed, which is why I think One True Church-ists should be more careful about what what they deny. It's not a good thing, to deny the work of the Holy Spirit.
>>39275500Agreed. However, it is understandable that there's doubts when it comes to such things. It's very easy for people to claim it when they don't really have it. I firmly believe those with the Spirit have proper discernment when it comes to these things. By their fruits you shall know them.
>>39275491>agreed I noticed you ignored the rest of the post Don't be an NPC. Transcend your programming.
>>39275520So quick to make assumptions. I think you should take your own advice.
>>39275572So you reject icon veneration?
>>39275578If it helps someone in their faith then how could I? Believing in NPCs is an ego/spiritual trap
>>39275610>If it helps someone in their faith then how could I?That is what I said in >>39274588>Icons and pictures may help one who is a spiritual infant, but as you mature, you will find that not associating God and his transcendal being and essence with a image will bring you closer to him.But unfortunately that isn't the Orthodox position. I think it is very hard to become a mature Christian while continuing to venerate images. >Believing in NPCs is an ego/spiritual trapOnly if I believe in anyway that I cannot become an NPC myself or that I am better than NPCs. But it is certainly a real phenomena. People take their "beliefs" for granted and do not explore why they believe what they believe. They do not engage meaningfully with themselves and their presuppositions. This is an NPC, and everyone must transcend these npc inclinations so they do not become complacent.
>>39275654>I think it is very hardThat's your perspective on it and for some reason you're trying to limit or put boundaries on how someone practices their faith. As Paul stated we shouldn't be worried about eating meats offered as a sacrifice to false gods/idols, but if a believer with weak faith has the potential of stumbling due to misunderstanding the situation, so should you also respect that maybe veneration helps them keep focus or reminders of what they believe in and why.I don't see why this is such a big issue for you. You should be happy someone has faith irregardless of where they are at in their journey. If it's for them to let them go and take a more personal approach, then that's what they'll eventually do. But for you to say it's somehow limiting is maybe not entirely correct. But if that's how it is for you personally, then more power to you. It's not a real phenomena, at all. You can say that you don't believe it makes you better than anyone else but the fact that you label them NPC's in the first place says it all. Not everyone is at the same level of awareness and understanding. Some will never wake up, while others will. Some will wake up and only journey a few miles, while others will travel their whole life. To call someone an NPC due to factors well beyond their own will is extremely disrespectful I believe. You can't force someone to wake up and belittling them with titles just makes things worse.
>>39275699>As Paul stated we shouldn't be worried about eating meats offered as a sacrifice to false gods/idols, but if a believer with weak faith has the potential of stumbling due to misunderstanding the situation, so should you also respect that maybe veneration helps them keep focus or reminders of what they believe in and why.Sure of course. People with weak faith. Now if only this perspective could be incorporated into Orthodoxy then there'd be no issue. >I don't see why this is such a big issue for you. You should be happy someone has faith irregardless of where they are at in their journey.I want them to go further on their journey. That's why I'm engaging critically with their doctrine, and I invite them to be critical of my suggestion as well, like you are right now. >It's not a real phenomena, at all. It's self evident, but it's not like I can prove it to you. Oh well. >You can say that you don't believe it makes you better than anyone else but the fact that you label them NPC's in the first place says it all. Not everyone is at the same level of awareness and understanding. Some will never wake up, while others will. Some will wake up and only journey a few miles, while others will travel their whole life. To call someone an NPC due to factors well beyond their own will is extremely disrespectful I believe. You can't force someone to wake up and belittling them with titles just makes things worse.A lot of assumptions here. Npc does not need to be taken as an insult, anymore than an alcoholic should be insulted by being called an alcoholic. It's simply a condition. As you said, some people have more control over this condition than others, but I respect you and your intelligence enough to presume that you can transcend any NPC inclinations you may have. For me to take your position that some just won't ever wake up would be akin to calling them stupid imo.
>>39275765>Now if only this perspective could be incorporated into Orthodoxy then there'd be no issue.Orthodoxy doesn't imply weak faith. It's clearly obvious by the saints that have come from the Orthodox church that there's members with extremely strong faith that have come from it, and none of them have any qualms with venerating icons (as far as I'm aware of).>I want them to go further on their journey.>I wantbut what if that's not what God wants for them? Do you think everyone needs to know everything about the faith? Because we can see even in scripture that isn't the case. It is the Spirit that provides opportunities for growth and understanding, even further inspiration. This inspiration implies that it's something we can only tap into through the Holy Spirit, meaning there's something no one here on earth can attain without the Spirit, or even with. Which is why it's inspiration. Miracles are done by God through us, not by us. So regardless of what someone wants, it may not be what they'll ultimately get. >it's self evidentIt's a matter of perspective, and I can tell by the fact that you choose to see things that way that you are not as knowledgeable in regards to the faith as you'd like to think. Neither is your relationship with God as close as you'd like to believe. >Npc does not need to be taken as an insultAnd neither does the word faggot, dumbass or bitch. However, depending on the individual and how they perceive it, it could very well be an insult. By definition of the word it's already insulting, but you seem to be avoiding the fact that it means what it means and trying to warp it into something nice, when it never is. You're extremely arrogant and I can already tell you've filled yourself up with a lot of lies and are trying to tell people how to get closer to God which I find quite hilarious. Have a good day.
>>39275816>It's clearly obvious by the saints that have come from the Orthodox church that there's members with extremely strong faith that have come from it, and none of them have any qualms with venerating icons (as far as I'm aware of).I posted 2 examples earlier in this thread of the church condemning the practice. Evagrius and the council of elvira. Before 600 ad there is no mention of the practice other than condemnations. Orthodox certainly has had great saints, during the time that it was the only institutional Christianity that existed and they did not have access to the materials that we do, namely the internet. To whom much is given, much will be demanded. >but what if that's not what God wants for them? Do you think everyone needs to know everything about the faith?That's the ideal yeah>Because we can see even in scripture that isn't the case. It is the Spirit that provides opportunities for growth and understanding, even further inspiration. This inspiration implies that it's something we can only tap into through the Holy Spirit, meaning there's something no one here on earth can attain without the Spirit, or even with. Which is why it's inspiration. Miracles are done by God through us, not by us. So regardless of what someone wants, it may not be what they'll ultimately get. So? Are you trying to tell me to shut up and not teach people because God will just magically zap it into their mind at some point? God appoints teachers and tells us that iron sharpens iron. >You're extremely arrogant and I can already tell you've filled yourself up with a lot of lies and are trying to tell people how to get closer to God which I find quite hilarious. Have a good day.You are projecting
I tried so hard to let god give me faith in Christianity.. but he didn't. And possibly never will because god doesn't exist.
>>39275877God must exist in order for us to make coherent sense of meaning and the universe, and Christ is God as we see through his historical footprint.
>>39275858There's teachers as you've stated, but not everyone is a teacher. There's prophets, but not everyone is a prophet. There's Apostles and saints, but not everyone is an Apostle or Saint. Not everyone is meant to be like that. Being like that is a huge responsibility, but by no means is it expected from everyone. Or else the Bible wouldn't say faith and good works was all that was necessary to obtain salvation. I'm not telling you to shut up, I'm being realistic here. You're not really teaching anything, just telling people that they're doing things wrong despite ultimately sharing the same faith in Christ as (supposedly) you do. If you can't see the error here in your line of thinking then I'll just have to simply end this discussion here. You don't have to know everything there is to know about the Bible to be saved. All that's necessary is a good heart, genuine faith and love towards God and putting to practice what is taught. And having a good heart works in tandem with putting the faith into practice.
>>39275899There is nothing wrong with holding each other accountable for bad doctrine, just as you are doing to me right now.
>>39275908I don't see veneration of icons as bad doctrine, and neither do most people. This is just needless infighting when we should be looking for similarities and growing in faith together, rather than nitpicking the other for doing something that makes no sense to you. When the man was driving out demons in Mark and the Disciples asked Jesus if they should tell him to stop. What did Jesus say? Did He say yes? Did He condemn that individual for not being a Disciples? Or did He give the okay and state that no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me? You're making mountains out of molehills and just causing more dissension and disagreement when we should be respecting other people in the faith. If we can't even do that, then what good is your faith?Romans 14:1-414 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
>>39275962You're not engaging with the material I've shown you that indicates it is a bad practice, at least in how it's implemented into Orthodoxy. I'll repeat it again. Use Ctrl+f "evagrius" and look up "the council of Alvira". These are the earliest mentions of icon veneration before 600ad when the church made it more or less mandatory. And I've already said I don't have a problem with those of weak faith practicing it, but those of weak faith probably shouldn't be on 4chan. And it is not the position of the Orthodox faith that icon veneration is reserved for those of weak faith. The current position keeps the laity complacent, as religious institutions generally tend to do (not that I deny their salvation or relationship with God).
>>39276048I'm not concerned with what someone else has had to say about icon veneration. Within the Bible, there is nothing condemning such practices. It's not idol worship, it's commemorating those who have done great things within and for the faith. Don't confuse what I'm saying in regards to icon veneration as equating to weak faith, however i fully understand why you'd think that. The main point is that, these small little details, or extras one may have in how they practice their faith is not a detriment to what Jesus taught us. Just as I don't see a need to pray the rosary, despite it being an integral aspect of the Catholic denomination of the Christian faith, it's the same with icon veneration in terms of how I view it. Do I do either? No. But would I tell someone else not to? No. This doesn't impact ones faith in the slightest. It doesn't make them weaker or stronger than another. It's just a practice within the confines of the faith. What ultimately matters is how we put to practice the teachings of Christ and those directly called by Him. And for me, personally; the words in the Bible triumphs everything in regards to the faith.
>>39274588That's the nestorian heresy. The idea that Jesus's human and divine natures were separate, and that His human nature is somehow inferior or illusory. It's an idea mixed up with platonism or cartesian dualism (division and separability of spirit and body) which is totally alien to true Orthodox theology. Jesus is man and He is God. We venerarate icons because they depict Him. We live under no illusion that they somehow grant some transcendental all-encompasing knoledge of His essence (which no man has), but they do depicit His human nature. Not an illusion, not some veil that separates Him from us, but God becometh man. And by venerating that image, we venerate He after which the image was made. No less a man, yet no less God.https://thoughtsintrusive.wordpress.com/2017/11/14/mysticism-and-rationalism-in-the-middle-ages-the-views-of-st-gregory-palamas/
>>39276122Christ's humanity is worthy of worship and veneration insofar as his humanity is indwelt by the essence of God. I do not worship him in his flesh for the sake of his flesh, otherwise I would worship all flesh. These icons may try to represent Christs essence but they fail utterly, and the bible regularly condemns graven images for this exact reason. I'm curious what you think of the documents I've presented here that seem to condemn the practice, namely evagrius and the council of Alvira? And the fact that these documents appear to be the only explicit mentions of the practice before 600ad.
>>39276184>the bible regularly condemns graven images for this exact reason.NTA but this is solely in regards to idols and false gods.
>>39275895Not true. God itself, he is as you imagine him bound by logic. Is logic god? No. Logic exists separately from god. Christ was just a man.
>>39276209It can be for many individuals, but the Orthodox and RC positions don't seem to acknowledge this afaik >>39276228Where did logic come from? Logic is bound by God, God is not bound by logic. >Christ was just a man Not according to the historical witness.
>>39276239I read the historical record. The bible is not historical record. The Romans didn't even mention him being even founder of a new religion afaik. So it's all bogus. Christ is the figment of a group of Jews imagination. The man Jesus was probably just some kabbalist or radical Essene that got crucified and that's it. Look even Paul he described stuff like it was just not historically accurate it was way before Jesus ever is said to have lived.
>>39276295The covenant that was established through Jesus' sacrifice is prophesied in the OT.
>>39276307I don't believe it. It could also happen under a Jewish messiah no?
>>39276295>I read the historical record. The bible is not historical record>The bible is not historical record. Then you didn't read it honestly. The new testament, especially the documents of Luke and Paul are very much considered important historical documents. Why do you think Jesus is considered to have been a real person in the first place? The only events generally considered questionable are the supernatural phenomena, and even that's a recent projection of the modern materialist insurgence
>>39276324I've also read that Paul described a king that didn't even reign during Jesus' life and died before he was born. I've read that on four chan. Could be bogus. But seems possible.
>>39276319You don't have to believe it, but it's there.
>>39276184I'll state it again, those comments of Evagrius seem to me only instructions with regards to proper mental state at the time of prayer. I know many who venerate icons, but none who strive to imagine in their heads the shapes of Saints or Jesus from the icons when praying. No one but philosophers and occultists could be that dumb. The average orthodox untroubled by philosphical presumptions and imagined intelectual dualisms knows naturally how to make proper use of icons. Icons are not what they depict. What they depict is limited, both by the capacity of the medium, and the limits of our minds. Yet what they depict is not false. It is real, and has value. It must be hard to be so absorbed by philosophy, that you lose the ability to see the simple things in front of you. You are unable to see what a leterless peasant sees, when he enters the church and first sees the icons. The life of Jesus, and the wonders of the Saints. And to see that in that experience, untroubled by philosophy, no heresy is found.
>>39276335Ok but what about the eternal old testament covenant? It's clearly eternal as said by the bible.
>>39276361Provide the verses that say so.
>>39276336>Icons are not what they depict.>Yet what they depict is not falseAnd what exactly do they depict that is worthy of veneration? The utterly unseeable essence of God? Or something else?
>>39276366(And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee) Genesis 17:7
>>39276394This covenant was put to rest due to it constantly being violated and disrespected. On top of that, it was also fulfilled, given that the covenant served a purpose.2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram[b]; your name will be Abraham,[c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.This was all fulfilled throughout the OT. Towards the end of the OT, we see a new prophecy of a new covenant to be established.
>>39276423I suppose the new testament version could be applied but the same goes for the Jewish perspective. I believe both are equally possible.
>>39276486The covenant Jesus established is far different than the old. It's a covenant that points to a Spiritual and personal relationship with God. The old covenant was more material and worldly in that it was more focused on material prosperity and such things like that. The new covenant ties into ascetic teachings as well as deeply spiritual ones in which aren't readily revealed unless you're given the awareness of putting them to practice. Without God's influence in your life, it'd be a waste of time and effort to do any of this.
>Orthodoxy is the newest group for alt right cucksnot even close you fucking retard. Terminally online larpers are the only ones playing pretend like you said, but in essence if we're speaking extreme right (National Socialism) there's no comparison because Orthodoxy / Christianity as a whole is a universal spirituality, which means that everyone is equal regardless of race and gender (although gender roles matter). Anyone who holds National Socialist beliefs could never accept something like Christianity, especially since the central figure of the faith is a jew. All the apostles were jews. And even if you think jews are fake jews, that doesn't change the fact that jews can go to heaven. The only saving grace Orthodoxy has is that it's anti-zionist in nature despite having jewish roots. Yeah, the irony is real.I believe the miracles, saints and the triune God but also every other religion's miracles, saints and Gods. I don't want to worship a jewish God who ordered circumcision, so I'd rather just be a good person who recognizes the unknowable creator of the universe.
>>39276508Ok but I don't have faith. I did all I can, I fast and pray. Still no faith. Read a lot of scripture. No faith. So, clearly, it's not true.
>>39276532This is the equivalent of reading a book on complex mathematics, not understanding it and then saying it's not true. The source material isn't faulty.
>>39276552You can look at Christianity like a tree with fruits. The fruits are modern christians. Look at them. Are they not total c.ucks?
>>39276602No, however I wont try and convince you otherwise. You can perceive it however you wish, it doesn't bother me one bit. But i'll just end the convo here, feel free to get the final word if you wish. All I will say is that you have made it very clear why you never got anything out of the faith lol. Take care.
>>39276630Well, then that's that. Just know: the Jesuits control the masons and the Jews. Both bow to the pope it has been documented and shared online.
>>39276382Are not the saints worthy of veneration? Is Jesus not worthy of veneration? He who was God made man, so that man may know God?Look, I understand your belief system well. You think that everything that has aperance (including Jesus, the man) is not God, has no connection to God, and therefore should not be venerated. Because apearance distracts from God who has none (again, ignoring Jesus). You also ignore that words themselves are apearance (you hear them or read them, but it's still the same principle as the images you despise). But that's not Christianity. And certainly not orthodoxy. To reject apearance as unreal is gnosticism. World denying. Not orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is world afirming. It does not place the world above God (the world is created, God is uncreated), but the world was made by God, and is good.The body is not evil. It is the temple of the spirit. The world is not (fundamentally) evil. Jesus is man and God. Thus He is depicted. To say His being as man diminishes God is anathema to Christianity. Man cannot know the essence of God, only His energies. Would you reject everything He made, even that He was man, in an effort to get closer to Him? Are you sure that's God you're trying to reach? It's certainly not the Christian God. Not the God who was man so man may know God. If you reject Jesus as man how can you hope to know Him as God?
>>39255434I do accept my Jewish. Do you accept yours?
>>39276699>Look, I understand your belief system well. You think that everything that has aperance (including Jesus, the man) is not God, has no connection to GodWrongYou aren't engaging with what I asked you What exactly is depicted that is worthy of veneration? Don't type me an essay, don't try to read between the lines and strawman me.
>>39276699>>39277141Let me clarify since I was having dinner YOU as a fellow Christian are a partaker of God's essence. So I can venerate you. Now I'm not venerating your appearance right? I don't care about your hairstyle or skin tone etc. and I know you'll say you don't care about that either in the icons. So if the appearance, which is being depicted in the icon, isn't what you are venerating, then *what exactly* are you venerating that is being depicted in the image?
I see it all as different flavors of the same ice cream. I align with Deism more than anything, so seeing friends and family bicker over trivial differences of the same fundamental belief makes me extremely disillusioned with Christianity.It's been thousands of years, there needn't be more useless bloodshed. Either you settle an agreement with eachother or discard Christianity altogether if all it's going to do is divide and conquer rather than unify brothers.
>>39277540We're not a monolith. Disagreement is fine and it's how we refine our faith. Obviously violence and aggression is a sin, nobody here is arguing against that.
>>39275491I have ADHD
>>39253601oof
>>39279290
Every time I leave church on sunday after agape has ended, I unironically spend the week eager to go to church again. I would've never expected that. Christ is Lord
>>39254119>>39254727ROCOR seems to be the most conservative (both from a social and liturgical standpoint) of the jurisdictions overall.Greek (especially GOARCH in the US) seems to be the most "liberal", or at least, ecumenist.Antioch is in between.ROC/churches directly placed under the Moscow Patriarchate (like the one I attend, although I'm in Europe) seem to lean conservative but not as much as ROCOR.But in the end it's not so much about the jurisdiction, rather you should find an actual parish you feel at home in.
>>39277261>YOU as a fellow Christian are a partaker of God's essenceWrong. No one but God partakes in God's essence. But explaining the Essence/Energy distinction would further derail the point. >So I can venerate youOf course you can. But I'm no saint. I've done no great works for the Christian community, I've not lived a particularly holy life. I've not attained theosis. So you shouldn't. If on the other hand, we were talking of such a saint (or of Jesus Himself), then veneration would be more appropriate. No one's forcing you to do it, just like no one's forcing you to pray. But you do so anyway to seek a closer relationship to that person. To show gratitude to them. No one's forcing you to engage in veneration (and so long as you don't do stupid shit like desecrating or destroying the icons or relics, no one's gonna kick you out of the church), but there's nothing wrong with it. >So if the appearance, which is being depicted in the icon, isn't what you are venerating, then *what exactly* are you venerating that is being depicted in the image?I'm venerating the saint which God had bestowed (or made) co-binded with said appearance. If their appearance would have been different (which it wasn't), then they would have been different, and (had they still been a saint), so would their icons be different. But it wasn't, so they aren't. Hypothetical parallel worlds are a problem for philosophers, and the disregard and rejection of appearance is a problem for dualists and gnostics, not Christians.
>>39275259He redeemed the world.Adam brought the world down and condemned it to death. Christ gave Himself so that the world could be saved, even though it didn't deserve to be.
>>39279481Is it seen as weird to not go kiss the icons when you enter the church?t. catechumen
>>39279731That's more of a question for the priest. From what I've seen, some do kiss them, some bow, but when service is not taking place, what many do is take a prayer stance (either to their knees, or standing, but their head and eyes down), and pray facing an icon. That's what I usually do. The officially endorsed stance is to bow to them and not kiss them.During a service however, attention is directed towards the priest and service, not the icons. >is it seen as weirdEither way, I wouldn't worry about it. Just enter and pray. The whole thing's about God, not you. There's an implicit dress code to not dress like a pimp or faggot or stand out too much, but other than that, no one's gonna give a fuck. As I've said, the thing is about God, so the other Christians aren't gonna waste time eyeing you in particular. That's not what Church is about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYLun9rSWTE
>>39279849I've already gone a few times but yeah I see the parishioners venerating the icons and it feels a bit awkward to me still, I guess it's a matter of time and habit.I'm eager to be baptized but it seems like the priest wants to wait a bit.
>>39280005If you're facing specific spiritual troubles, or if you find a particular depiction of a saint of a scene in Jesus's life "speaks to you", you may pray towards that and ask of the saint depicted, or of God, for advice or guidance. You may also ask your priest about specific things, or how to seek guidance. Or, if you're so inclined, you may close your eyes and pray facing nothing at all. The Church is the House of God, and is where He is to be found. Where we come to get closer to Him.
>>39280085https://web.archive.org/web/20200824023928/https://thoughtsintrusive.wordpress.com/2018/01/30/a-noetic-life/
>>39279290There is no "official orthodox" figure in orthodoxy. Why would I ever think about and follow whatever some ruskyfaggot said about something at all?Orthodox monastic Christianity is still the closest we have to real Christianity.
>>39280132I want to go to Athos but I don't know if I'm cut out for it. I'm not cut out for married life either though.
>>39280135> I'm not cut out for married life either though.Well, you've got that going for you. Afaik. if you're serious you can apply for a trial period to see if you're cut out for it.
>>39280269My parish has affiliated monasteries so I'll probably try it out there before committing, and then go to Athos. Would that be a good idea?
>>39253601Turbocath-fascism with option into other Christian religions is the collectivist filth that's cooking, screenshot this
>>39280393>Would that be a good idea?Probably? Not exactly my area of expertise.
>>39279290>>39279293>Papal supremac-ACK!
Highly, Highly Recommended any Christian, not just Orthodox, to read about Corneliu Codreanu’s life and what he did for his nation of Romania. “For my Legionnaires” is a good start as it gives a history of his Iron Guard Movement, beliefs, and martyrdom against the secular/marxist elements attacking his country.>>39276521>Anyone who holds National Socialist beliefs could never accept something like Christianity.Nationalist Socialism is the closest man has gotten to applying the laws of God in recent history, especially with the Iron Gaurd’s conceptions of National Socialism.The NS understand the concept of self sacrifice and working as a body, to achieve the greater good, more than any democracy or oligarchy.
>>39281001The Romanian Orthodox suffered a lot under communism. So many martyrs.
>>39277606What is a sin? Committing a sin means one deserves death, that is only the weaklings' naive and helpless expectation, they spread such ideology, hoping people would abide by it so as to protect these weaklings. As for me, I want to be a person who commits a sin, yet is able to roam freely and travel the world.
>>39281001>The NS understand the concept of self sacrifice and working as a body, to achieve the greater goodThat is not Christian ideology, but corporatist ideology (not to be confused with corporatocracy) of viewing your people, state, or nation as a body.I believe you can be fascist and Christian at the same time, but only if you accept the bible might not be really all that factually and don't take it to heart.Comes much easier since Jesus didn't write it anyway but mortal men, unlike with the Quran (a different beast entirely but honestly more compatible with fascism).
>>39254849The watchers who came down on Mount Hermon, and were sent to Tartarus, are the Titans. They are seraphim, high ranked Elohim. All Elohim are amphibious, but because of their tail and appearance, they get called serpent people. Anu-Nagi, Annunaki, the Hindu Nagas, and the titans are the rebellious Elohim, Asuras. That's why the region around Mount Hermon was called Nacash, the land of the serpent and was considered an entrance to the underworld. So the Tribe of Dan lived around Mount Hermon and they slept with the watchers and became the Didanu, AKA Tidanu, named after Titans themselves. Some of them became the Olympians, the men of renown, the Tuatha De Danaan, the Devas, who opposed the asuras, others became man-eaters, skinwalkers, RAKSHASAS. All have the ability to shapeshift like the Elohim themselves and look like clowns when they're not in another form, very pale, curly red-hair, blue eyes. They ate humans to consume their energy and were very advanced. They fed on fear too, and now their descendants can shapeshift to this day and also eat humans (mainly shitskins), drink blood, consume fear, etc. and dress like clowns during certain rituals (remember the clowns in the woods in 2016?) and like the asuras or titans, believe in self-empowerment, worship, and superiority over those without the blood of Elohim instead of being slave-like. The asuras still live underground and the ocean, and can fly as well as swim. In North America, to be initiated into this and given blood from a summoned Asura to gain the power they have is called the Witchery Way. You have to kill a kid or a family member to prove you're not soft then they'll give it to you. The more you consume, the more powerful you become.
what's the secret behind orthodox monastic cells, looking so COMFY? They're a perfect mix of non-kitsch cottagecore, religious iconography and mild comfort\color.catholic monasteries are either 100% aniconic besides a small crucifix ,or -and I say this as a a catholic- look like a parish store or art show, with way too many statues\ relics\ replicas of famous sculptures, etc ordobox have the perfect balance.
>>39253601Read this thread:.......... https://x.com/elitefeat/status/1742924942151438589Keep in mind that both Christians and atheists do not like what I have to say.Also, here's a supplementary post that contains some important details:.......... https://x.com/elitefeat/status/1799553063390154856
>>39282872any style inspired by God is bound to be beautiful
>>39280953Kek
Based thread is based
Honest thoughts on Jay Dyer?
>>39283440Agreed
Do you guys fast from olive oil during lent? My priest said olive oil is usually allowed in the russian tradition, I wonder if that's widespread
>>39259768I have no idea what you expected. Christianity has never been a racial religion, as attested by Paul writing "there is neither Jew nor Greek" in the first century. There are African saints as far back as the fourth century, like Abba Moses the Black.
>>39254119pretty sure the true church is not a group of weird dressed cultists...
>>39288284You only say that because your idea of what the "true church" looks like is probably informed by low church American Protestantism more than anything else.
>>39288298yeah, I went very far away of all the institutional religion stuff, but I'm not sure where to look at, I think homeless people and ong activity have something to do with it, but most of the street preaching is like, "I went to this gay festival and this demon told me to leave!!!" *huge red horns over a random person* then you have a 20 minutes video of a two hypocrites arguing.But institutional churches are even more boring, let's do this same ritual again, ignoring everything around us, let's live a normal money worshipping life like everyone else in the world, we surely will be fine if we just walk to this specified building and do this specified rituals the weekends.My point is that everything feels fake and gay, and I think this is intentional. Maybe the narrow gate is finding this true christianity.
>>39288395Have you ever attended a Divine Liturgy or Mass in person? If not, you should try it sometime.
>>39253610blasphemous idiot gnostic
>>39253601> the real Christian Church is a bunch of autonomous sects in slav-turkic shitholes and spergs on the internetThere is no such thing as so called Eastern Orthodox Christianity as none of you even agree with eachother and some of you are like Nestorian retards or some other type of brown person heresy
>>39290644Laughably wrong.
>>39290644Just listen to this habibihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-3h9TQ312c
>>39290644>or some other type of brown person heresyAmish are the whitest Christians, and ironically, they are weak pacifist parasites that depend on their host nation tolerating their existence, and they couldn't even sustain themselves since they have severe disabilities because of extreme inbreeding and depend on modern medical care and food supplies.
>>39280393Monastic life is harsh, it's not all prayer and psalms. Expect your daily chores (tilling the earth, collecting fruit, washing, cooking, serving, cleaning, painting, building, you name it) to take almost all your time; then, get 2-3 hours of sleep and wake up at 3am for the morning orthros, only to repeat day after day after day.This is intentional of course and it guarantees the advent of grace to the aspiring orthodox monk. It's not for everyone, obviously, that's why the (about year-long) trial period exists. Also, not everyone is accepted straight to Mt. Athos just because he applied; your mission may be different as it was clearly the case with Father Ephraim of Arizona. Good luck.
>>39286664Whatever discipline you can adhere to. Me and my wife usually keep it off the table during the past few years fasts, but food cooked without olive oil tastes, well, tasteless. Considering there are 3 major fasting periods (Christmas, Easter and the Koimisis of Theotokos in mid-August, 40 days each amounting to 1/3 of the year), we find it very difficult and don't follow it piously. Do whatever you can.
>>39292841>they are weak pacifist parasites that depend on their host nationThey're more autonomous than any urban kike like yourself. You'll start crying the moment power goes down but they won't even notice.
What are you supposed to do when someone close to you is very deep in delusion and sin?My sister has gone all in on the postmodernist, lgbt, scientism nonsense and it's hard to even talk to her anymore, it seeps into all of her ways of looking at the world and anything questioning the official narrative is met with aggression and sarcasmAside from praying I'm not sure what to do. I'm not even sure prayer will help since her heart is very hard and she's doing all she can to consciously distance herself from anything good and beautiful
>>39293063>Aside from prayingThat's all you can do. Your sister is free to do whatever she wants and not even God Himself would interfere to free will, except to send warnings.She feels 'strong and independent' because the current narrative rewards such women with praise and flattery, which only feed vanity. Pray, stay strong and marry (if single) a good woman that could perhaps set an example to your sister.
>>39293672>marry (if single) a good womanThe issue is that I don't think I'm called to marriage. I will take whichever path God decides is best for me, but I feel like I'm going to stay alone. So I can't really set much of an example, and everything that doesn't affirm the narrative is met with contempt anyway.
>>39293682In that case, life itself will teach her the lesson she needs. It may take long, but it will happen. Pray for her and pray harder she doesn't birth a boy to troon out.
>>39293702I really hope you're right. She's just 21, hopefully she'll grow out of this, but she's deep into that stuff, and her environment just enables her (hyperleftist university, friends who are all the same brand of lgbtq pomo, she lives in a microcosm and knows nothing about real life)>pray harder she doesn't birth a boyProbably no risk, she had a dyke phase and now she's in her "I'm a careerwoman and will freeze my eggs or adopt" phase
>>39253601i grew up orthodox but left the church, convert larpers ruined it. It used to be comfy and there was really good greek or ethiopian food after the services. Stopped going when they switched from greek to english for the service.
>>39294132And you don’t want more people to reach salvation because?
>>39294673because these people should join a protestant church instead of making my orthodox one feel protestant
>>39254119Ephraim of Arizona... epic guy
>>39292871Hey, I have a question. Considering my circumstances are less than ideal right now (living in my car with no source of income right now, living off my dwindling credit), while I am thoroughly enjoying my time at my local parish, and making good friends and spiritual gains (somewhat), I feel a strong urge to do a tour of actual monasteries of note so I can see if I can feel what the ambience pure spirit feels like so I can truly grow and hold fast to something observable to the faith. Technically there is nothing holding me back or down now, yet I still feel a certain apprehension. Idk why, but I've always wanted to make a pilgrimage, but I could never get myself to actually do it. From what I understand, I think there are monasteries that offer work for pay or shelter/food for extended stays, and I was thinking about maybe doing that. But I don't know which ones. Are there any in the U.S. that you know of which offers that? Maybe I can do a trial period thing too.I live in the Southwest close to the border.I'm just so tired, and my spirit feels so ground down to almost nothing with perpetual hopelessness and despondency from this fake and gay world which clearly hates me. But then, maybe I'm the problem. At this point, I honestly can't tell anymore. It is said that if the world hates you, know that it hated Christ first. Maybe it's a signal. But maybe I'm just trash too. I just don't know anymore.Just wish I could get adopted by a spiritual father, like pic related style. It has always been a lifelong dream of mine.
>>39294132>convert larpers ruined it.I feel like that's an integration problem on your part. If they failed to integrate, it's because they did not know or were not shown. Also what do you mean by making your orthodox church feel protestant? Did they start busting out the rock bands with rock and roll for Jesus or what?
>>39295581idk i just hate service being done in english instead of greek, it feels less authentic. the need to evangelize and constant virtue signaling converts do feels protestant too
>>39295635>i just hate service being done in english instead of greek, it feels less authenticWhere do you live? In the U.S. it makes sense, as an English speaking nation. Though I admit it is less than ideal, that's not a dealbreaker for me personally. It does make it more accessible to new converts or those interested, but to forsake the church for that reason alone is petty, and makes it seem like you only valued it for cultural appearance values yourself, which would be ironic.however>the need to evangelize and constant virtue signaling converts do feels protestant tooThis I can agree with. The draw of Orthodoxy to me was the idea of showing, not telling. I mean there's an initial point of contact to get into the church in the first place, but I agree, the practice of going out of your way to try and pick up recruits all Mormon style is not something that Orthodoxy should abide by, and those practices should be ditched at the door. The church should be a beacon, to draw those near and to see what it is. But again, if the converts are doing that, it's because they are not being informed or led the way they should be. Sounds like an individual parish/monastery problem, but not an entire church problem. The parish I'm attending has been growing just by organic word of mouth, not proselytizing. That is how I found it and ended up there. It's small, tiny even, but I enjoy it very much. A good entrance point for myself.
>>39253601-when will the world will end and how, Jesus?+Uuuhh... There will be wars and... And... Earthquakes... And hunger and stuff... I don't know when it will end thoYou can't just say most generic bullshit and actually get away with it. People believe it, it's crazy.We could have created our own heaven on this world, but God got jealous, multiple times. "But ooh God is life and good and life without God is bad" shut the fuck up. You're not only a liar but you're being lied to. All wars and suffering on this world are fault of one crybaby because he wants people to be miserable so he can be strong in their weakness. Meanwhile we're about to find some kind of immortality, without him. Wonder what he'll do next. Imagine worshipping that cunt. Btw this is all correct theology. I even went to Athos 2 times and stayed there for 2 months in total.
>>39295682yes i'm from the usa but my church was over 50% greek people. i feel like they were trying to bring more people in to justify building a bigger church that was crazy expensive, and of course they fund-raise off of the "greekfest' every year too
>>39253601reading this made me feel ill
>>39297486Why?
>>39297687What hope is there for me if monks go to hell.
>>39297701I think it's just a warning against larpers and corruption.
>>39295548>I live in the Southwest close to the border.When I was in the US in 2007-8 (I'm Greek), I had visited a monastery near Kendalia, TX (Holy Archangels, https://holyarchangels.com/) and attended the Sunday mass. The ambience there was out of this world and I can personally recommend it to you. Some of the monks there were spiritual children of Father Ephraim's the Arizonite and spoke highly of the St Anthony's monastery too, in Arizona. His wikipedia page lists the monasteries he founded.>>39295548>Just wish I could get adopted by a spiritual fatherEvery neophyte monk is assigned one, nobody's left alone or without guidance.
>>39296158This is off-topic, jew.
Serious question:What does it mean when we say that God incarnated? The more I think about it the less I understand the conceptI don't understand how Christ was an incarnation of something so abstract, in a way that all humans aren't. I think I'm missing something fundamental in my understanding of what reality 'is' vs what God 'is' but I just keep getting wrapped up in knots.Can someone give me an easy to understand explanation of what incarnation actually means?Sorry if this is a confusing post but I'm struggling to even phrase the question intelligibly
>>39298536>Can someone give me an easy to understand explanation of what incarnation actually means?This is very complex to answer, even for the early Church Fathers. I'm an orthodox myself, but I tend to prefer the explanation given by Steiner's Anthroposophy.>inb4 HERETIC!Ok.
>>39297757Those who take on the position of leaders are judged by a higher standard, worry about your own relationship with God first and then spread the gospels, feer God and keep His commandments and when you inevitably sin, as we are still in sinful bodies and after proclaiming Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we we will be attacked by Satan ever increasingly as we progress in our faith, but we have an Advocate before God, Jesus Christ the righteus, who will argue your cause before the Father and cover your transgressions with His own blood and clothe you with His own righteusness.Though i dont know why you would raise such an issue on 4chan, this site is infested with godlessness, take this topic to the Word of God and pray that the Holy Spirit guide you to the answers you need.Remember, all things are possible with God.
>>39297486I believe a lot of us are going to hell after particular judgment, but after general judgment hopefully most of us will be saved. After all, only the unrepentant will be damned, right?
>>39299338Matthew 7:13-14 KJV[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [14] because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.Those are red letters by the way.
>>39255501I too turned to faith recently. Ironically because of Jews. Once you see and acknowledge that there truly is such a thing as evil (the jew) then it becomes your heavenly duty to fight it. The jew hates Jesus, so I willingly, lovingly, give myself to Christ to be used as a weapon. God does not need more sheep. He needs soldiers. The end is coming. There is no church that preaches the truth. You must find your own way brother. Don't get chained to docturne. You will know what is right when you follow Him with good intent. The jew is the antichrist. TKD. Christ is King.
>>39299860This>James 2:19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.* Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.
>>39299638And?
>>39299860*completely oblivious to the fact that the Father has uncountable multitudes of angels on His side, each one of which could genocide the jews in a night if they were ordered to*The Father is looking for those who will worshop Him in Spirit and in truth, Jesus is God, a Man of war, the Lord of the battle, He wont wven need to raise His fist to defeat Satan, He will defeat Him with the Spirit of His mouth, why would He have any use for more soldiers? Especially as a weapon to fight against our brothers, who are beloved by God for the patriarchs sake, many of whom will eventually also receive the faith and revelation of Jesus in their hearts as prophecied by Paul, when the fulness of the Gentiles has been pastured to Christs sheepfold?None of what you say has any bearing on reality.
Emergency bump
>>39272631Who cares about your "natural instinct"? You're inclined to some 17th century lukewarm reformers who have no priests or sacraments or any connection to the ancient church. These people who can't even define who their god is. This is what you're attracted to? You don't respect Christianity, and you never have. You gave up your journey with Christ for what? Your feelings, your "instinct"? You're a donkey.
>>39300183Ignoring the fact that satan has just as many demons. The battle here on the material realm has little to do with angels and demons. It's a war on the mind. Degeneracy and filth is being normalized and celebrated. This is the jew's doing. To poison our souls and corrupt our minds. It is our heavenly duty to expose and reject this evil. It is our duty to attempt to save our brothers and show them the light. Show them that evil is not something that hides in hell, it is here among us, wearing tiny hats, rubbing their claws, whispering filth into our ears. The "antichrist" is not someone. It is a group. A group of people that are anti-christ. Can you think of any group of people that believe Jesus is burning in hell covered in shit? A group that wishes to "burn our churches and defile our saints". The war isn't coming. It's here. The enemy has shown itself. Anyone who opposes it and fights for what is right is a soldier of Christ.
>>39302712What youre talking about is just plainly something Jesus never called us to do, youre speaking like the popes who tried to justify the crusades. Besides antichrist menaa, in place of christ, also the antichrist is reffered to as the man of sin, man of lawlessness and son of perdition, so it definetly is a someone.
>>39303281And my belief is the Bible was manipulated on purpose to mislead us and keep us docile. It would be advantageous for the enemy if we just keep turning those other cheeks, wouldn't it.
>>39303310Nah, we turn the otger cheek because we have been enlightened by understanding from the Holy Spirit to be able to discern that is our enemies are not our fellow brothers and sister, but the spirits which tempt and deceive them to do the most obscene kind of evil acts.
>>39303356Then you can turn your cheek while culture and faith is trampled more and more. When you're forced to betray your values remember to smile and nod. I won't be doing that.
bump
>>39303525Violence and lies is all you have a heart for
>>39303829What the fuck am I lying about?
Ye bræhThe dungeon
>live for 200 ,300 years>literally fly in the sky>die more than once doing penance, get resurrected, keep doing penanceWhy does the Ethiopian Church have the BEST saints? pic is only an example of this. I can post Synaxarium passages, I have the PDF, of such cases of saints.do non-ethiopian orthodox (greek, serbian, russian, etc) pray to this saints? I genuinely am in awe of their stories. On par with the greatest desert fathers ,such as symeon stylites or daniel the stylite
>>39303931Ethopian aren't Orthodox, they reject the council of Chalcedon.
>>39253601The only clergyman I know in the Greek orthodox faith committed adultry. His wife was my childhood neighbor. They have 5 children together. Until any organized religon can actually prove they practice what they preach; I'll still view any alleged theocrat as a charlatan and/or hypocrite.
>>39305512What a stupid "argument"
>>39305515well I'll wait while you substantiate any poignant counter point.
>>39305657You didn't make an argument. Your post amounts to>religion bad because one priest I know sinnedlol. This isn't even worth responding to, I'm probably falling for bait.
>>39305672Ad hominem nice. Good luck recruiting people to your super special fun time absolution and salvation progam.
>>39305712>Ad hominemWhere?Your posts are unintelligent and petty, this is the last (you) you're getting.>super special fun time absolution and salvation progamreddit-tier cringe.
>>39297701It's saying that the perils are much higher for monks and bishops. Not that you should get complacent, of course.
majority of Humanity eternally dying isn't a joke.
>>39298536My understanding is that creation exists as part of an inscrutable process by which the non-divine may be divinized, and that part of this process (which occurs both in time and beyond time) takes place through the nature of a non-divine thing taking part in the nature of the divine through grace. For the non-divine to be fully divinized, all of its nature must take part in the divine, and for human beings and the human race this means all of human nature must take part in the divine nature. God putting on the human nature in order (in its fallenness which includes death and temptation) to institute the real, concrete process by which humans can take part in the divine nature is the focal point or axle around which the rest of the process of divinization revolves. Source: dude trust me
>>39297701What he is saying is that monks and bishops are worse than laymen
What do you Anons think is the future of Orthodox in America, and in the west in general? Will it continue to grow, or remain stagnant but stable? Will all perishes integrate with the nation such as the OCA? Will each country have an ecumenical council to work with Catholics and Historical Protestants in their host nations?…will there be a second Iron Gaurd movement?
>>39306246So in other words, God created man, then became man so that man might become God. I agree with this as the overall point of Christianity, but it's not quite what I'm getting atI mean more like>What is the difference between Christ and a human who has fully completed theosis?>Answer would be that Christ *is* God in a way that the man isn't>God is the fundamental ground of being, that creates and sustains reality, and is basically 'existence' in a real sense.>How then was the man Jesus Christ more *this* than the divinized man?Maybe a facetious way to describe the question, but it might explain my current thought process a bit more: >imagine I said that the concept of Colour became a person - what would this actually mean in practice? >And how would the Colour-man be different to a normal person who has colours all over his body but is not the concept of Colour in essence?(not intended to be a disrespectful or dumb argument, but just hoping to tease out some understanding on my side as I don't quite grasp this)
>>39306174Just as well all shall be saved then
>>39305672>know them by their fruit>nooooo not like that!
>>39311091>>know them by their fruitthe individual
>>39310903>so that man might become GodThis is incorrect. *so that man might ascend from their fallen stateis the correct way. We cannot become God, because always was, is and has been. We are a part of the creation. The Bible makes clear that a hierarchy exists in Heaven, and so while Jesus did say we can become LIKE the teacher, by no means does that imply we will become God. NTA btw.
>>39308594America is demonic and the way it truly functions is satanic at its core. If it were to integrate, it would be corrupt as well. Best to avoid nations in general, since they all function through multitudes of lies and deception to maintain what it is and "function properly" in accordance to the ways of the world.
>>39286075
>>39310903Like the other anon said, the point isn't that man can become God but that man can partake of the divine nature through grace. They're not the same thing.I see what you're asking though. There's not a fully rational answer to this, as the Trinity and Incarnation are revelations which non-revelatory philosophy approached but did not discern by themselves. What is important to think about is the fact that the persons of the Trinity, while relating to each other through begetting and spirating (depending on your view of the Filioque), have no beginnings and endings like timely beings; that they exist from eternity to eternity; that man was made in the image of God (with all that entails) in ways still poorly understood; that a key part of the Fall of Adam and its effects on the world came about because of this relationship; that both man in the singular and man as a species were made in the image of God, and this is in parallel to the many persons but one Divinity of the Trinity; and that Christ's Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection revolve around this same relationship. To put it another way, it's hard to fully explicate what it means for God to incarnate as one man without fully explicating what God is, and that is a tall order indeed. What we can do is look at what we know about the world, its foundation, and our (original and post-Fall) place in it, and view the Incarnation in light of this knowledge, which seemingly shows that man - both in the singular and in the species - is something very unique: the image of God given tangible form, a limited being mirroring God in some ways, something whose action and intent was capable of influencing all of creation during the Fall in a strange echo of the Creation itself. The fact that God took on the form of man seems almost obvious when you look at it this way, imo, and reveals a startling way to look at Christ's miracles: not brought about by His divine nature, but by a pure, never-fallen human nature.
>>39313757Disclaimer to this post: most of this is speculation based on random stuff I've read. Ask a real ordained priest before taking anything I wrote seriously.
If I decide to attend a Russian Orthodox church service this Sunday, what should I expect?
>>39311859>>39313757By 'that man might become God' I meant the Athanasius quote btw. I realise theosis doesn't mean you partake in God's essence, I just don't know what partaking in God's essence actually looks like for a human (Christ)>>39313757The fact that creation and divinity mirror each other to some degree is fitting, but it doesn't quite get to the heart of what I'm trying to figure out.I think what I mean is a good explanation of hypostatic union - I understand how Christ could have two minds/wills in harmony (as the state of divinization reflects this to some degree according to Marguerite Porete) but I don't get the combined essence. I don't understand what distinguishes Christ from a normal human in that regard if God creates and sustains our existence
>>39263116>don't visualize some form at the time of prayerOops. I've been doing this intentionally the whole time.
>>39315621Be ready to stand
>>39316386I stood for my last service. 2.5 hoursinvigorating
the dungœnb r æ h Pater noster praise be
>>39253610happy thanksgiving juden
If I visit a catholic church am I supposed to cross myself?
>>39308594Real Christianity will never be a thing in the U.S. because of the Freemasonry.
Why do you orthodox not believe in predestination isn‘t it in the bible?
>>39318757We don't want to say that we believe in it because you would assume that we don't believe in free will.Free will is very important. But technically predestination doesn't need to exclude free will and in that sense we have nothing against it.
>>39319019So what are your exact believes on this matter?The western view on predestination is condemned
Even if I could get behind the idea of a man being God , from everything I've read he was a jew preaching to the jews / israel and all that. I have yet to be convinced that anything in Jesus's story applies to non jews or why non jews should even give a damn even if the underlying message is decent. It feels like shoehorning your own way into someone else's mythos Someone please clarify this for me.
I'm interested in the Orthodox Church because I feel like the others here in the US have chosen the world over God. But I'm from a protestant background and not Greek, Russian etc. Would I be welcome at an Orthodox Church or seen as a poser?
>>39321771I'm assuming you're a burger, or at least western europoor. Depends entirely what your intentions are. Are you just drawn to the aesthetic alone and thinks it'scool because it's"trad", or because you truly believe it's the right path while the other churches have lost their way? If the former, you won't get anything out of it. If the latter, there will be a bit of a culturenshock, but as long as you leave whatever ego or pride that may remain about how things should be according to you, and as long as you listen, learn, and ask, you'll be very welcome and nobody will look down on you. That's antithical to the church. Arguably, the cultural natives will be thrilled because you're taking interest in their own culture.Tl;Dr just don't make it about you and everything will be fire
>>39321308>Someone please clarify this for me.Read the Gospels, it's spelled out clearly enough in there.
>>39272688>There is no vitalism and no respect for the physical bodyThat's one of the problems I had with Christianity in my youth. They cultivate a milquetoast type of man. This seems to be curated from the top down as the Biblical patriarchs were sturdy farmers and the Israelites were warriors against the giants and other adversaries. Malachi Martin described the Jesuit training process in one of the Art Bell interviews and it sounded extremely vigorous. The Russian martial art known as Systema is the only Christian martial art and the top guys from Russia are Orthodox.
>>39323231>They cultivate a milquetoast type of manLook at any interview of an Athonite monk and see if that looks milquetoast to you
>>39321771Just go, odds are whatever parish you go to will love bomb you unless you're in a huge city with a historical immigrant population and you go to a service in an ethnic russian neighborhood or something.
>>39253601Imagine following a religion headed by a literal athiest (patriarch Kirill).Could you imgaine following a religion that literaally says the president of Russia is the highest spiritual authority on earth.And literally says being a retard makes you more "innocent" and therefore closer to God, and therefore you should be a retard?LOL LMAO.
>>39321308That’s exactly what it is. Paul started reaching out to gentiles because the Jews of his time weren’t convinced of his message. The gospels were all written by people far outside of Judea decades after Jesus was supposed to have lived and in language that his original disciples could not have been literate in.
Is there any place for me as a Convinced Universalist ( I'm not one of those pitter pattering Hopeful Universalists. I believe this is the Gospel ), in the Orthodox Church?The only Universalist Associations I know of seem to be socially liberal and permissive of sin.
The cultural lay people of the Orthodox church, do they generally seem very urgent about their salvation? From the outside looking in, it looks like they seem to all have some sort of underlying faith that all will be well. It all seems very lax except for the Priests and the monastic types.Unspoken Universalism affirmed? What's it like? Maybe the lay people are these really terrified people grasping to get out of the fires of Hell and I'm just not seeing it from them.
You'd think that a tradition which does not really focus on 'assurance of salvation' or quick formulas to be saved from Hell would have more fear associated with it. But I've see peace among them. They're very peaceful in aura.What's going on?
>>39326725>The only Universalist Associations I know of seem to be socially liberal and permissive of sinno shit that's the whole point
>>39327080You can't do good out of love? You must be in a state of fear in order to do good?That's no Gospel at all.The Love of Christ constraineth us. Should we sin just because we have grace? No.
>>39327140Quit going to universalist "churches" if this bugs you so much, their whole system revolves around everyone getting a free pass no matter what they do anyway.
>>39327165Everyone gets a free pass to life. Rewards are where good works come in.Do good works out of the love of Christ, not from fear.
>>39327258Which Scripture says that?
>>39326322Everything in your post is false. Good job
Are there only two options in life, marrying or becoming a monk?
For orthodox anonsHow do you deal with the fact that your priests ask you to give worship to paintings and statues as supposed inspirations to achieve a deeper connection with God through the experience and hopefully, prayers and blessings of the saints?
>>39330858Veneration is not worship, this is Orthodoxy 101
>>39330865Ok, but when you say a prayer to someone, how is that not worshiping them as though they are an kmnipresent spirit that can even receive prayers, regardless where the person praying to them is located?Also, when did the apostles or early church fathers ever pray to anyone except God, or when did they create images and statues to connect them to veneration or worship?
>>39330924Asking for intercession is not praying directly to the person in question.You're just bringing up typical talking points that have been addressed thousands of times. "Images and statues" are not forbidden in Leviticus, idolatry is. Once again you need to learn the definition of words and understand how they differ from each other, this is typical catholic/protestant rhetoric where they pretend not to understand that idolatry refers specifically to worshiping a graven image which has absolutely nothing to do with iconography
>>39330942You didnt answer my question of what Scripture this "asking for intercession" comes from.Also2nd commandment“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
>>39330977Intercession of the dead is explicitly mentioned in 2 Maccabees 15:14 where Jeremiah intercedes for the Israelites after his death. Even in Genesis, Jacob prays for the angel who redeemed him to bless his descendantsSaint Cyprian of Carthage as early as the 3rd century wrote that those who've died in Christ help the living through their intercession. Once again protestants showing they don't know Church history>You shall not make for yourself a carved imageThank you, I'm familiar with the commandments, which you obviously do not understand. In the Martyrdom of Polycarp (2nd century), Christians already venerate relics. Veneration is the honoring of God through saints, i.e. there is a difference between latria, dulia and hyperdulia.I recommend you study more theology and don't rely on surface-level interpretations of scripture
>>39330977>>39330988By the way, describe to me how the Ark of the Covenant is decorated. Are cherubims idolatry?This typical protestant literalism is nonsensical
>>39330988Im not starting an argument here, im not your enemy neither do i accuse you of anything, this is a strictly theological question which i was always curious about, brother. We both want the truth to be established according to correct doctrine so i ask you for a healthy distance from "no u" replies and the like.Neither do i say that i have never asked the saints to pray God for me, but recently i started to feel that this is not correct since they are not the mediators between God and man, Jesus alone is.1 Timothy 2:5“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”But this is the passage you mentioned, here it says that Onias prayed to God, for the people, and that God answered Him, by sending the prophet Jeremiah with an uplifting message and blessings.
>>39330988This passage is from Genesis, the account of how our father Jacob wrestled with God Himself, not with just any angel, He wrestled with Jesus, who was is the one reffered to as the Holy One of Israel, or the Mighty One of Israel.
>>39331039Forgive the aggressiveness in my responses then, I assumed you were just looking for a gotcha and weren't asking about this in good faith. My bad.>this is not correct since they are not the mediatorsIt's not about mediating, it's about relying on their own proximity to God, which is much superior to ours. The saints are the "great cloud of witnesses" described in Hebrews, their communion with God is unimaginable compared to ours, and communicating with the saints is not communicating apart from God, it's participation in the unity of the Church, as the Church is one on Earth and in Heaven.>>39331051I seem to recall Jacob's angel being an angel, and not the Angel of the Lord/the Lord's annointed (Christos), but I might be mistaken.
>>39330995The ark was designed by God and given from God to men as a vessel of the 2 tables which the commandments were written upon, Moses's staff, and a few other things. Besides, the ark was the literal throne on which Jesus sat on when He appeared to and talked to Moses.
>>39331061I like Hebrews 12:1, but Hebrews 11, is clearly a recolection of old testament legends of our people, and not one of them ever asked anyone except God for anything, neither does Paul say in any of his epistles that we should ask for intercession from anyone except Jesus.And its not at all clear to me how exactly one should expect the glorified saints to even receive our pleas, are they omnipresent, to be able to percieve us in our prayers wherever we might be?
>>39331063Yes, but this doesn't change the fact that the Ark incorporates imagery. God explicitly commanded Moses to make two golden cherubim, they were physical, crafted images placed on the Ark and part of the worship in the Holy of Holies, so why were they not considered idolatrous?This is where protestants fundamentally misunderstand the difference between icons and idols: the purpose of the cherubim was not to replace or depict God. They were incorporated into the Ark's design to point to His presence and glory. The Orthodox use of icons is exactly the same thing. They're not idols, they're aids for veneration, reminders of God's work, and "windows into heaven"You also have other instances of God instructing men to construct certain imagery, like the bronze serpent (later misused but not inherently idolatrous) and Solomon's temple.By the way, it's not explicitly stated in scripture that the Ark is Jesus' throne. The Ark is described as God’s dwelling among His people in Exodus 25 but the physical presence of God in the Ark points forward to the Incarnation i.e. the dwelling of God in the flesh among His people, see John 1:14I could give other examples but the gist of it is that icons are rooted in the Incarnation
>>39331087The point of that part of Hebrews is to show that although the saints in Hebrews did not intercede during their earthly lives, it's their glorification in Christ that changes their capacity to intercede, and Paul himself always emphasizes the fact that the Church is inherently interconnected in Earth and in Heaven.Also Orthodoxy never claims that the saints are omnipresent. Only God is. Saints don't intercede due to their own inherent ability, they're able to do it because they partake of God's divine nature, they intercede through their union with Christ
>>39331061This is the Strongs concordance on Genesis 32:30 "today i have seen *God/Elohim* face to face".Recall that Moses also used the word Elohim when he wrote "and God/Elohim said, lets make man in our image"(Genesis 1:26)
>>39331111Alright, thanks
>>39331088>so why were they not considered idolatrous?Because they worshiped God according to His own command, the ark is an eternal representation of something that is connected to the sacred mysteries of God, since John says in Revelation 11:19, therefore it cannot be considered something inherently man made, but as a direct gift from God to His people, amd hence i dont think it can be categorized the same way as an icon.As far as the throne thing, pic rel, maybe an answer, though Moses records in Exodus 33:9 that the Lord spoke to him, while standing at the door of the tent aswell.
>>39331104Just to be clear. Not for a second will i deny that our glorified brothers and sisters intercede for, neither would i dare deny that the holy angelic brethren intercede for us.The only thing i am concerned about is the fact that i simply cannot find a Scripture which would imply that it is good and holy to directly ask either a saint or angel to do us this favour.
>>39331174*forgets to post picrel*My bad.
>>39331174Icons are not claimed to be objects of worship, they're literally windows into divine realities. So they share the Ark's purpose, which is direct worship towards God, and they're rooted in divine revelation, but in a different manner. The theology of icons arises from the Incarnation as said above. Where the Ark prefigures Christ's presence, icons testify to His Incarnation. It's a matter of the invisible God becoming visible. So both objects point to divine realitiesFurthermore, it's a bit disingenuous to say that the Ark has an inherently special status because it was "designed by God"; it was still made by human hands. While the Ark was designed by God, human craftsmen like Bezalel (Exodus 31:1-5) made it. Similarly, icons are crafted by human hands but they're sanctified through prayer and the Church's blessing>>39331194I think part of the problem might be that you're placing too much of an emphasis on sola scriptura and not enough on the living tradition of the Church, there are biblical and historical foundations to intercession. I would say that the practice of asking saints for intercession is rooted in one simple principle, which is that the Church is one body in Christ. We ask the saints because they're, well, saints, and we are not. Romans 12:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 describe the Church as a unified body, with all members deeply connected, so there's an ongoing interaction between ALL members of the Church, that means us and the saints, and they're in a better position than us to pray, because they're literally closer to God.If you want specific biblical examples of intercession, there's Job 42:8, Luke 16:27, Rev 5:8 and 8:3, and also examples in James, Tobit and MatthewHistorically, you've got the Catechetical Lectures of Saint Cyril and the Roman catacombs for example that feature inscriptions asking for the prayers of martyrs. So this practice is very old and has been going on since the earliest days of the Church
>>39331228Your heart is in the right place. However, you are basically beating your head against the wall arguing with a so called Protestant. Martin Luther's writings and biographies have been around for a long time. Anyone who wants to look into the errors of his teachings and the teachings that evolved from his teachings are all openly available. There is a slew of so called churches which teach those things. I call them cults. It might be a good thing to try and convince cult members they need to get out, but many people will not listen. The way is narrow.
>>39331252I'm discussing this in good faith because he is. I don't expect I'm going to convince him to abandon protestantism but at the very least I believe I gave a solid justification for the theological and historical backbone of the Orthodox veneration of icons and the practice of intercessory prayer
>>39331228The ark on earth is made in the resemblance of the ark that is in the temple of God in heaven, the cherubim are a direct representation of the fact that there are holy cherubim who are day and night before the throne of God, singing praises and making intercession for the saints, which is why they are included on the ark, and through the spirit of wisdom which was in Solomon, representation of the holy cherubim were also included in the first temple design, however, God never mentioned to Moses(or anyone else) to make any icons and to venerate the people depicted on them through this practice. Neither in the Old Testament nor in the New Testament, of course this practice goes way back into the early centuries AD and i dont deny that, what i do deny, is that this practice has a Biblical origin, since that would be a claim that cannot be affirmed with a single scripture.
>>39331252The derailment gang blesses us with their presence.
>>39331339I gave you biblical references above, but either way, the point is that there is no "interpreting the Bible" alone, divorced from the living tradition of the Church. It literally makes no sense. The Bible you have right now was compiled around 700 AD. The Bible doesn't exist in a vacuum.>this practice goes way back into the early centuriesYes, that's the point. There was no Bible back then. You would've been lucky to see a single manuscript of one of the Gospels with your own eyes. The tradition predates the "final" compilation of the canonical scriptures.
>>39331278Do not listen to name posters on 4chan, hesrtfelt advice, from brother to brother, and regardless of our differences and the fact we are randos discussing eternal truths, i hope we meet on the clouds at the return of the Lord Jesus.
>>39331350I don't think I've derailed anything. On topic here. There is no reason to argue with cult members. They are brainwashed and sincerely believe that they are the ones with the TRUTH. Also, most so called Protestants don't know that their whole idoelogy and talking points come from cult leaders. They literally say the same stuff because it's all from a cult. No original opinions allowed.
>>39331355How come none of the writers saw it fit to include intercessory prayer and imagery as part of the basics of Church tradition, except the Roman church, which accepted pagan practices into its doctrine when it became the state religion of Rome under Constantine the Great in the 3rd century AD? And Orthodxy which split away because of the heretical practice of popery?
>>39331363I'd rather ignore people who can't be bothered to spell words or fix typos. This site needs to discourage the retards.
>>39331374Are you implying im spreading Martin Luthers teachings?I havent quoted him once. Everything i said can be verified directly in the Bible, and yes you are here to derail this discussion between brothers, and cause animosity, where there is none.
>>39331381*ban him because he has fat fingers and big hands*Wisdom.(?)
>>39331386Deny the Five Solas. You think the ONLY source of doctrine is the Bible. You're no different from a Wahabbi Muslim cult member.
>>39331376This is a misunderstanding of history, intercessory prayer and icons didn't begin under Constantine. They predate him and are deeply rooted in the early ChurchAs I already said, the martyrdom of Polycarp c. 155 AD refers to the veneration of martyrs and asking for their intercession; inscriptions on the catacombs of Rome (c. 2nd century) do the same; Origen explicitly mentions seeking the prayers of saints; early Christian art (frescoes in the catacombs of Priscilla around the 2nd century) already show the reverence for visual representation way before ConstantineThe accusation of pagan practices entering Christianity under Constantine is based on outdated theories, Constantine legalized Christianity with the edict of Milan in 313 AD but did not impose new practicesBy the way, the Orthodox Church didn't "split away" (Rome split away anyway) because of the papacy. The schism occurred over theological and jurisdictional differences including the filioque and papal authority (which are intertwined and related) Intercessory prayer or icons were practices by both traditions and continued to be, because they were already part of the shared apostolic tradition. The council of Nicaea II affirmed the use of icons>>39331386The point is that you cannot "verify directly" Christianity with the Bible alone. The Bible is a collection of texts deemed canonical and progressively compiled over the centuries while the religion of Christianity itself was already flourishing and had stabilized in its practices and beliefs.
>>39331393*worships Jesus according to the testimony given by God Himself*>wahhabi muslim?
>>39331407The Bible as we know it today wasnt in existence in the ealry centuries, however the ladt book of the Bible, the book of Revelation, was written between 70-100 AD, and if the apostles felt that these practices were beneficial to us, why wouldnt they have recorded that they were practicing it? They learned their doctrine from the Lord Jesus Himself and from an immense measure of the Holy Spirit, which no man after them has received to the same degree since no one else is able to take their place ad the judges of the 12 tribes. And if they didnt do it, why should we?
>>39331453You are similar to a Wahabbi in that you would insist that your cult is the pure original form. That you couldn't understand what I meant is helping make my point stronger. Cult members usually don't have good understanding of anything.
>>39331495Because many practices and traditions of the early Church were transmitted orally. The oral tradition of Christianity is extremely important to its development and it's why protestantism is necessarily heretical.The apostles focused their writings on the essentials of the faith, which are the life, death, resurrection of Jesus, salvation through Him, and the moral and spiritual guidance for Christian living. Their job wasn't to provide a comprehensive manual for all future Church practices, they were there to establish the faith and pass it on (John 16:13). The apostles didn’t explicitly record every aspect of their worship practices because they were already part of the shared life of the early Christian communities anyway, this is shown in the Didache and in writings from Ignatius of Antioch which reflect that practices involving intercession were already in place.John 21:25 says "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." You also have 2 THessalonians 2:15 which clearly tells believers to "stand firm and hold to the traditions" passed down by word or letterSacred scripture and sacred tradition are complementary. The Bible itself never claims to be the sole source of Christian doctrine or practice. Without sacred tradition we wouldn't even know which books belong in the Bible, so sola scriptura is self-defeating and contradictory.You have other examples like the word Trinity never being found in scripture, Sunday worship (instead of the Jewish sabbath) and infant baptism not being explicitly detailed in the NT but being universally practiced by the early Church, etc
>>39253601Send prayers anon, my body is having a bad time not eating meat in the Nativity's fast(Shitting my ass off)In about two weeks, I brushed off 12 pounds
>>39331587Can't you eat some fish or seafood?
>>39253601Orthodox is what the deep state pushes on dummies now that everyone hates Catholics
>>39331613>the deep state pushes orthodoxylmao what kind of cope is this
>>39331601Yes, thank God for fish days. But my diet is based on red meat.
>>39331652Thank you for proving you're in a cult. That's exactly what I dealt with when I left the Hebrew Israelite cult I was in. You're not unique.
>>39331653Specific fasting rules depend on the parish, personally my priest warned me against having an overly legalistic interpretation of the fast. The law for man, not man for the law, etc. It's meant to be a time of austerity and privation in all aspects of life (food, but all other forms of sensory gratification), not a time of diligently and blindly sticking to a bucket list of forbidden thingsPersonally I abstain entirely from red meat, poultry and all dairy but I eat fish and oil. Greek parishes tend to be stricter about fish and oil due to Greece historically consuming much more of it than Russia, but yeah my point is if you're losing a lot of weight and having digestive issues, maybe talk to your priest about adapting the fast
>>39331666Unfortunate trips
>>39331666Haha interesting trips thank you for your words. I do eat eggs and cheese while fasting for Nativity (I try not to on Pascha), with a little bit of fish in between I'm pretty good.But if I eat too much cheese or potatoes I shit my ass off. It's somewhat curious how our body acomodates to this things.
>>39331693kek maybe it's the cheese. Have you tried getting protein from other sources like nuts and peas? I've been stuffing myself with homemade hummus for the past month and it's great. Very cheap and convenient too, just blend the chickpeas with some olive oil, garlic, lemon and cumin and you're set.
>>39331698I (well, the Orthodox Church) consider(s) protestantism a heresy because it denies the living tradition of the historical, apostolic Church, that's all. I'm not questioning your own faith, simply saying that "strict adherence" to the Bible alone is not sensible or even logical, for the reasons I stated earlier. Sola scriptura is an untenable position from a rational standpoint, and denies the tradition of Christ's Church.
>>39331698Protestants are heretical not for reading the Bible, their doctrines are wrong.For Orthodoxs, any deviation from the First Church is heretical, that doesn't mean that we're vile towards them, or that we can be brothers in humanity.
>>39331703I might go for hummus and crackers when I'm fed up with fish. Great idea.
>>39331725>believing the Bible as being the building block for the doctrine of Jesus ChristNot him, but the written tradition cannot be separated from the oral tradition. It simply doesn't make any sense. The Bible was compiled by the Church and its councils that protestants reject; so how is it legitimate, from your own point of view? The Bible in its current form appeared half a dozen centuries after Christ's death and resurrection. The logic of sola scriptura would imply that Christianity thus didn't truly exist before c. 700 AD, which is ridiculous. But if Christians did exist before, then how was their tradition legitimate without the "canonical", current version of the Bible?This goes on and on. The logic of protestantism leads to a kind of atomistic disintegration of Christian doctrine
>>39331725Anyone who disagrees with the First Church is heretical.>You still havent answered why believing the Bible as being the building block for the doctrine of Jesus Christ is equal to being a cult member. Not the other guy, but you cannot separate things just because you feel like it. There's a reason why the Church exists, a reason for Saints and for communion.
>>39331739Oh and peanut butter is great for cheap calories tooI'm managing to maintain my weight while fasting despite going to the gym so yeah. As long as you don't overindulge in good flavors and keep in mind the spirit of the fast I don't think you gotta torture yourself
>another typical prot vs orthobro dialogue ticking all the boxes for misrepresenting each other's positions, using the same questionable arguments by youtube apologists and cherry picking scripture/church history as alwaysI'm so tired of this shit.
>>39331771>misrepresenting each other's positionsWhere did I misrepresent sola scriptura?>questionable argumentsWhich ones?>cherry pickingWhere?In which of my posts >>39331088, >>39331228, >>39331355, >>39331407, >>39331536, >>39331745, did I present my arguments in a disingenuous manner or cherrypick? Feel free to point out any fallacious argument or false claim I might've made, or any inaccuracies in what I said
>>39331809>Did Jesus ever say "be orthodox and ye shall live"?This is misrepresenting what I said. But you also believe the commonly parroted and blatantly false claim according to which Easter and Christmas are "pagan rituals" so with all due respect I urge you to deepen your understanding of Church tradition and the reasons why the True Church is, in fact, the only True Church founded by Christ and His apostles. That being said I'm tired and done with this conversation. God bless you
>>39331853>Read the books that claim to be from God, and test the spirits.So you trust your own fallen reason and arbitrary personal judgments over the Church. This is all that needs to be said
>>39331829Thought you were a Protestant, sorry.Are you talking about Sola Scriptura?Explain yourself.
Someone make a new thread when this one diesHopefully it won't be derailed this time
>>39331868Be honest when you speak, there's nothing wrong with debating, but let's be honest, I think you understand what I mean with First Church knowing there's a thread about Orthodoxy.>>39331888Nice trips. I think your questions are/were answered in the several Councils before the big schism, I would suggest to take a look on them as I will too since your questions are interesting.
>>39331956Are you gnostic?
>>39331956Feels like you're looking Christianity for aesthetic and cool boys points, you're pissing off the toilet mate.
