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/xs/ - Extreme Sports

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>welcome to the gym anon, today we're learning [technique], [counter1], [counter2], and [counter3]
>time to roll
>opponent launches [technique]
>heh, no problem, [counter1]
>suddenly [counter1counter] to instant tap
>get fucking smoked nonstop for an hour
>repeat 3x/wk for a month
Why am I being set up for failure? Why am I giving these assholes money? When will they teach me the secret techniques? And why do I keep getting hit in the nuts "accidentally?" And why are protective cups forbidden? Am I enrolled in in a gay BDSM dungeon disguised as a martial arts studio?
It seems there weren't any warriors among your ancestors anon you just aren't made for fighting it shouldn't be this hard
>new student is worse at fighting than more experienced students
>a bloo bloo bloo it’s not fair
Suck it up zoomie. You have to get your ass kicked a whole lot so that you can eventually figure out how not to. If you quit after a month you’re a loser. If you stick with it long enough you’ll learn how to win.
Don’t listen to this retard. No one walks into the dojo and is beating ass day 1.
Dude bjj totally works bro
Here's a video where some fat manlet tackled a crackhead and put his arm around his throat!!

You need 10k hours studying bjj to achieve that level of skill :^)
Your first payment now pls
If you go to a gym and they're teaching techniques like that you should turn 360 degrees do a break fall and then just stand up because shrimping doesn't work and go out the door

Techniques aren't real
A technique is a semi-repeatable method to achieve a goal, and it's something that changes person to person
Anyone that says "this is the correct technique" is wrong
You see this come up in the divide between modern leg lockers and old school jiujitsu boomers

Learn from a boomer and he'll say this is the way and if you're not getting it it's a you problem, keep doing your reps until you get it exactly the way I said to do it
The modern take, we'll use a heel hook for example
You can use a one hand grip, Gable grip, butterfly grip, figure 4 grip
For your legs it could be a simple knee pinch, legs crossed, a triangle, foot under the thigh, foot under the butt, whatever
And when you ask what should I do a good coach will tell you it doesn't matter
Because none of those methods actually are what matters, the thing that matters is their hip is trapped and you have a bite on their heel
And whichever configuration works best is going to be an individual thing based on your body as well as the body of the person you're trying to do it do
As a 5'8" giant dwarf walking on a pair of oak tree stumps the configuration I use to control someone is obviously going to be different from Mr. Skeltal with his hips starting at my nipples

And so what a good instructor is going to do is show you some different examples and then give you some guided play time to figure out what works best for you
And that doesn't mean rolling, that means supervised deliberately practice
For the next 5 minutes your goal is to hold Jeremy in cross ashi, he's going to try and escape it. Don't try to finish the attack, just practice controlling someone trying to escape
If he does reset
Play around try different things, see what works for you

Thats how you git gud
So playing slowmo pattycake on a single move for 5 minutes is the secret to not getting rolled up and smoked for an hour? Sweet, thanks, but we already do that and it doesn't help at all. I mean it's fun and cool but it's completely unrelated to the things that start happening once the buzzer sounds.
Doesn't really sound like you do what I'm describing
I don't think you're having an atypical experience by the way, the main problem with this stuff is how it's taught.

I'd bet it would be safe to wager that the moves you learn today don't really have anything to do with the moves you learned yesterday and aren't going to have anything to do with the moves you learn tomorrow
People show this garbage like you're ordering at the drive thru
Lemme get uhhhhhh 2 armbars, and a mount escape...2..no 3 back attacks aaand I'll try a half guard sweep
That isn't how this is supposed to work, imagine if you went to college and the teacher just taught a random thing every day and then you were expected to curate that information yourself and make something coherent and useful about it

This stuff should be taught in units, starting this month we are working on mastering the half guard
First I will show you the position and different configurations of it, then I will show you how to attack from that position, then I will show you ways to defeat that position
It'll be 2 weeks for each of those phases
And if you miss something that's okay because other people saw the part you missed and catch you up since you already know everything leading up to it

They say jiujitsu is "human chess"
It's real easy to make checkers seem like chess when you don't explain it correctly
It's piss easy really
>shrimping doesn’t work
>techniques aren’t real
>anyone who says “this is the correct technique” is wrong
>a good coach will tell you it doesn’t matter
I don’t even disagree with your main point which is that you need to apply techniques based on your body type and what works for you and your game but holy shit you’ve got a lot of autism and other dumb shit sprinkled into this post. Techniques aren’t real? Shrimping doesn’t work? Get load of this guy.

OP you need to learn the “right” way to do things first, you experiment with what works for you after. What the anon Im responding to is advising you to do is skip steps 1 and 2 of becoming proficient
>step 1: learn the form
>step 2: break away from the exact form
>step 3: Mastery, aka you can apply the principles of the art without the form being important
You might think I'm crazy now, but new idea that challenge convention usually do seem crazy at first. Eventually you'll agree
Soon I'll come around
Lost and never found
Waiting for my words
Seen but never heard
Buried underground
But I'll keep coming
Song lyrics or schizophrenic?

Either way, there is value in beginners learning the basics in an organized way, you can’t maintain good pedagogy if you decide to just do everything everywhere all at the same time.
little from column A little from column B
The idea is that "submit your partner" is not narrow enough of a goal to develop skill quickly. It helps to have more specific goals. A lot of people do things like positional rounds:
>start in mount, reset if there's a submission or escape
or even more specific goals
>start in half guard with a crossface/underhook, free your leg

It's a bit of a rabbit hole but any way of simplifying the game will help. Try to figure out your main problem areas and focus on them for a while.

Here's an example of what I was talking about
Personally, I still like to learn techniques and concepts but I try to combine them with games/specific training.
Break Guard
Pin Hip
Get Side Control
Move to Full Mount
>>start in half guard with a crossface/underhook, free your leg
oh neat, we get to foot fuck each other
>just get side control bro
Wow hadn’t thought of doing that. Great advice retard
>we get to foot fuck each other
I don’t even understand this one
>When will they teach me the secret techniques?
They're showing them to you, pay attention and ask questions if you need to.
>And why are protective cups forbidden?
That one's weird. Is that an actual rule or just your interpretation of someone's offhand comment?
He probably brought a thai style cup in
In my experience bjj guys are terrible sparringpartners.
In my old gym they just smash you when they are way better then you.
I’m a decent kickboxer. When I spart someone weaker then me, I go easy, try different techniques I’m not used to and let him work. I’m not aiming to ko him.
But in bjj
>got Mounted by someone two belts higher then me
>defend Ezekiel choke
>get facecranked till I tap
>embrace the suck, bro

Go fuck yourself
Yeah, why is that? My partners in wrestling and judo have been better partners on average than the guys I've run into whenever I've checked out BJJ gyms. Something's off about the culture.
Inferiority complex, they may give you the line about how belts don’t matter but for whatever reason every blue belt feels like he has to keep white belts in their place or something instead of letting them work. If you let them work they might accidentally “win” a roll.
Oh boy it's this retard again
>techniques aren't real
That's a new one, you'd probably get me with that if you didn't lead with the shrimping thing
You guys retreated from the last thread after I showed lex Friedman and Ryan hall discussing how shrimping is shit
Don't try to move it somewhere else now and pretend you've won
>No one walks into the dojo and is beating ass day 1.
I’m sure you were very special anon
As long as you acknowledge that back rolls are real.
It's not that there's no circumstance where that may come up, maybe more so as a protective reflex if you got knocked over, but it's a weird niche movement that if you spend any time practicing it at all its just time wasted
"if you fall backwards go over your shoulder instead of neck, k?" That's it

That's more something people should be ok with doing just navigating the world like you tripped or something. It has no implicit martial value
We left the thread because you ruined every attempt at a discussion with annoying contrarian shit, without any examples of you being correct
>muh Ryan Hall's opinion
Judofag here, im not even aware of what argument you nerds were having before but wtf is this post?
>it’s not that back rolls are real it’s that you should just roll over your shoulder instead of your neck to avoid injury
Like, yeah retard that’s what back rolling is. What the fuck am I even reading?
>but it’s niche so if you practice it it’s time wasted
Ok have fun when all your students start breaking their necks then since you evidently didn’t train them to protect themselves.
>provides example
>that example is too reddit
Whatever the fuck that means
Yeah man, totally gotta make sure you spend 25 minutes of class rolling up and down the mat
This is the reason I don't go to judo, it's such a waste of time
Very little of it is actually instructive
>this is the reason I don’t go to judo
You don’t train at all because you are lazy and think you know better than the people that submit you consistently (including your instructor)
I bet you’re the kind of retard who is constantly trying to do shit he saw on YouTube before learning the basics and never actually improves
nope, just don't like it. I'll talk shop about judo and study it for educational purposes but the formality is a non-starter. I'm not a 19th century chink peasant

nope, already made it pretty clear learning techniques is dumb. especially if the source is something like youtube
if someone is showing moves on youtube that usually means they don't have people in real life willing to pay them directly for their instruction
No, it’s a terrible way to train.
He stick to his old path and I learn nothing but to endure.
If he would go more easy, he could try stuff he isn’t realy good at and I could work on my basics.
Both of us would improve.
>he can't pass the hips
>>And why are protective cups forbidden?
>That one's weird. Is that an actual rule or just your interpretation of someone's offhand comment?
this is how you know /xs/ has never rolled, your elbows know not the pain of the cup-bar
>I’m a decent kickboxer. When I spart someone weaker then me, I go easy, try different techniques I’m not used to and let him work. I’m not aiming to ko him.
i do the same thing, except i throw cut kicks to the supporting leg inbetween catching the kick and sweeping because *checks notes* i'm an asshole
How exactly is anyone supposed to learn anything if you don’t teach them techniques? Just have them roll around getting submitted until they reinvent the wheel on their own?
Mild physical discomfort during an arm bar is a much smaller concern than injury to the testicles.
It depends entirely on the gym and its culture
In some places, people are really chill
Elsewhere, they train like homoerotic Cobra Kai
You just need to fit a gym that fits your preferences
I'm happy that you've discovered these fun concepts but simply stating and knowing them does not make them easy to accomplish.
White belts understand what their supposed to do, doesn't mean they can do it against anyone knowledgable.
No, everything is guided for them however they are taking an active role in the learning process and coming to the answers on their own
If I take you on an Easter egg hunt and the whole country is the boundary you'll never find it unless I give you so much information I practically told you the answers, but if I constrain you to the front lawn you'll find the eggs on your own

If I want you to learn an armbar first define what an armbar is
An armbar is a state in which someone's arm is extended and force is being applied to the back of the elbow causing enough pressure it will eventually rupture

So that's your task, starting at the very end you're going to practice that iteratively, and you'll just play with an arm getting feedback from the partner if it's better or worse until you figure out ok I need to grab the wrist and rotate the hand and push my hip bone into it. if there's a break down in the system somewhere we troubleshoot it together until YOU realize "he keeps sitting up and the pressure goes away" Ok now you're going to have a new task with the goal of holding him down where you'll figure out heavy legs, knee pitching etc.

You will learn much faster and much more completely with your understanding If you are the one making the discoveries and I'm just there to give hints and help guide you
Vs I'm an expert in something already so I show it to you and say OK monkey now copy exactly what I just did 1000 times until it's as good as mine
>Easter egg

I had an instructor that called it the box of mistakes. Anything outside the box would get him to stop you and reset, explaining why it was a mistake. Anything inside the box you had to figure out yourself.
This is the most pseudo-intellectual bullshit I’ve ever read on this board
>hurr durr I can’t teach you an armbar because techniques aren’t real let’s define what an armbar is
Stop trying to hard to be John danaher you sound like a retard
If you want to spend 15 years brute forcing your way to a black belt by playing Memory games be my guest
I spent on average 18 months per belt level on a 3x a week schedule except during the COVID lockdowns because I didn't have a gym for about a year so that added a little more time to me

I don't know why people get so salty when someone give them a possible alternative to expedite the skill acquisition that they're looking to accomplish
It has to be sunk cost, right?
If there is a better way than it will feel like they have wasted their time until this point so we just need to deny that a better way can even exist
But really it's just spiting yourself in the end, the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago the second best time to plant a tree is right now
People aren’t salty you just talk like a faggot and your shits all retarded.

You act like your above techniques in your previous posts but when you’re actually describing how you would teach an arm bar it’s just training the technique point by point going over each minutia with the student until they get it. Guess what dummy that’s how everyone learns when they have one on one time with their instructor and it doesn’t necessitate the abolishment of the idea that the armbar is a specific technique. You’re not half as smart as you think you are.
But the armbar as a concept really doesn't exist it's just a name we gave to a loose collection of configurations that resemble each other in a few invariable ways
You need to identify what the invariance is in order to really understand what you mean by that and what you should be working on
I speak the language of jiujitsu so I know what you're talking about when you refer to an armbar, but it's really just a physical concept
Opening a door all the way to the point it breaks over its hinges is physically the same mechanical action as bending an elbow backwards on itself
This means opening a door is an arm bar, which is why we need to define precisely what we really mean "here is Plato's man"

Side control is a common example within this discussion, what is side control
Do the configurations of your arms matter, your legs, your partner's arms, how much they've turned into you or away from you come the angle at which you're going across their body,
Tell me precisely at what point side control becomes North south control
Tell me precisely at what point his frames are in place enough that you no longer have a side control
Literally tell me down to the millimeter?
Well it has so much variance that its indefinable so let's not use that term anymore because ask 100 people and you'll get 100 answers

What are you really trying to achieve?
Hes pinned chest to chest, with his far side arm controlled and my legs free.
Ah see so that's way different from simply saying side control. now we have something to work with

Just like with art how you start by drawing a simple shape and create iterations to turn it into a more complex shape, This works the same way
BJJ in most places is taught like you draw a circle by first drawing a really complex face and then eracing the details

you can do what you want with your time
It's a shame you immediately disregard a different more scientific learning theory based approach because some Brazilian guy says so
I didn’t even bother reading past the first paragraph
>But the armbar as a concept really doesn't exist it's just a name we gave to a loose collection of configurations that resemble each other in a few invariable ways
This is exactly what I mean when I say you’re a pseudo intellectual midwit. I could apply this logic to fucking anything and say it doesn’t exist
>books as a concept don’t really exist it’s just a name we gave to a loose collection paper configurations that resemble each other in a few invariable ways
>sports as a concept don’t really exist it’s just a name we gave to a loose collection of game configurations that resemble each other in a few invariable ways
>technology as a concept doesn’t really exist it’s just a name we gave to a loose collection of tool configurations that resemble each other in a few invariable ways
>energy drinks as a concept don’t really exist it’s just a name we gave to a loose collection of drink configurations that resemble each other in a few invariable ways
>punches as a concept don’t really exist it’s just a name we have to a loose collection of strike configurations that resemble each other in a few invariable ways
Just shut the fuck up you retard.
>we're all just atoms man
Why are you asserting uncertainty where certainty exists? How is this a help and not a hindrance to understanding? I haven't seen this level of unironic deconstructionism since new atheism.
You aren't wrong when you bring up the constraints-lead approach, but you sound like an idiot the way you attempt to discuss it.
>Opening a door all the way to the point it breaks over its hinges is physically the same mechanical action as bending an elbow backwards on itself
>This means opening a door is an arm bar
Take your meds
It's not certainty and uncertainty, I'm using the term invariant deliberately
Invariants are how we define our outcome

If I want to break your elbow there are some invariants involved with that process
I need to block the proximal and distal joints, and apply a force to the elbow. All the other things surrounding it don't matter
And the bjj teacher is going to teach an armbar today with a kinura grip, then a butterfly grip, and 1 arm lapel grab, and 1 arm pocket grip grabbing the leg, and a shotgun grip, and legs crossed, and legs triangled, and 1 over 1 under and etc. etc.
And you are going to get a lesson dedicated to all of those things individually plus however many more there are, you won't remember 3/4 of it once class is over, And you've wasted time going over some dumb ass made up configurations that the instructor probably doesn't even fucking do himself

What I'm going to do is teach you how to break an elbow, give you exercises to practice it, and leave you to figure out what grip and what leg configuration and what else other variable changes you need to make in order for that to work and I don't really care which one you do
And you are going to get 10x as much work done in the same time

I want you to learn how to speak the language not just memorize phrases and responses

The fact that you can similarly deconstruct other things doesn't mean this should not be deconstructed if you wish to learn it faster
I'm not breaking it apart for the sake of breaking it apart, I'm breaking it apart to identify what is important and to trim the fat so with limited time you can optimize your education
I used that as an example because it's ridiculous, Terms are meaningless if we don't define them properly

And in jiujitsu people throw terms around like it's a given
Thats why I say what do you mean by that?
If you speaking english Kimura and Americana are distinct moves
In Japanese use garami means both of them

It's best to describe things by the goal rather than colloquial terms
> The fact that you can similarly deconstruct other things doesn't mean this should not be deconstructed if you wish to learn it faster
Except your not making things simpler you are making them convoluted and non-specific
> I'm not breaking it apart for the sake of breaking it apart,
You literally are though
>I'm breaking it apart to identify what is important and to trim the fat so with limited time you can optimize your education
Are you a common core student or something? No wonder you’re retarded.
Nobody is confused about what an armbar is except for you evidently and we don’t need to go through mental gymnastics to define it without getting confused about whether or not pushing a door the wrong way is an armbar. Ever heard of the definist fallacy? That’s exactly what you’re doing when you’re insisting people can’t figure out what an armbar is unless you deconstruct the term into non-existence.
I realize new ideas that challenge the conventions some Brazilian guy you've never met came up with can be startling and difficult to understand at first
By all means if you think pajama wrestling proficiency should take the same amount of time as a post-doctoral degree to achieve then keep doing what you're doing and resist what I tell you

Makes no difference to me because I see the results on the mat as people come to me to give them some of my forbidden arcane knowledge and not the half dozen other people in the room with way more experience than I have
Because my way gets them the results they want faster
Incoherent but you successfully derailed another thread with your delusions. Great work
I'm completely on topic
People starting an argument and then losing and leaving isn't derailing anything

Feel free to give such sage advice to the struggling guy as "just keep showing up bro, it's supposed to be hard"
I'm not the one complaining here
You are not doing anything new, you are describing training exactly the same way everyone else does one on one. You’re just making naming conventions convoluted by insisting techniques don’t actually exist and specificity is useless. I’ll repeat, you’re not half as smart as you think you are.
This also though, I’m done arguing with you, you’re clearly retarded and unwilling to see reason.
>I talked in circles like a babbling moron until everyone left! Hooray! I win again!
>describing training exactly the same way everyone else does one on one
That's just factually untrue but even if it was true for 1 on 1 I can do this with a group
Like I said though the results speak for themselves. My method will get people to black belt level in the same timeframe most get to purple

It's just a hobby after all so if time is not a currency youre dealing in and you enjoy being a drillyboi repping triangles on a compliant partner then go right ahead
Karate class is appealing to a lot of people for similar reasons
>results speak for themselves
How'd you do at pans? How'd you do at trials?
why would I want to do that?
Discouraging newbies is beyond fucking gay
People who do don’t train anyways
>why would I want to prove my skills in active competition after saying my method was better than everyone else’s
sorry I'm not following, what does destroying my health with steroids and overuse injuries for the entertainment of others and no monetary compensation prove exactly?
you mean to tell me people pay to watch these contests as spectators, and the participants don't get any of the money and in fact PAY TO PARTICIPATE?
it's an IQ test or what?
>bro I’m the best at jiujitsu, let me tell you how to do jiujitsu
>doesn’t actually do jiujitsu
My sides anon, please stop before I lose them
Answer honestly: how many invitations to the kumite have you turned down because you "just had other plans"? Followup question, how many secret missions have you been approached for by government agencies so secret that they don't even have letters?
not sure where I ever claimed to be the best at jiujitsu. I mean I'm better than you no doubt, but my claim is my learning methodology will increase your grains faster than the monkey see monkey do "jus keep coming to class my fren" method most people use
and like for example, there's no doubt I'm better at jiujitsu than nicky rod for example. But more goes into winning matches than who has greater technical abilities, for example I don't abuse anabolic steroids, he's younger than me, and also bigger too

but if you came to a seminar hosted by us there's no doubt you'd leave mine with more useful skills than his

come to think of it I've only turned down one fight, I was approached about a boxing match and declined. I never claimed to be a boxer so I thought it was weird but was down for it anyway, my grandpa was a pro boxer back in the day but I was advised against it suggesting they were planning to use me as a stone and I didn't have anything to gain by doing it
Nobody cares anymore anon, you don’t even participate in the sport you pretend to be an expert in training. Really embarrassing stuff.
>caring about sport jiujitsu
that's the only embarrassing thing here
You should’ve gotten your black belt in aikido. Sounds more your speed.
I know it's really important to you to score points
like man it's so important that you pass the guard and get 2 points! why? because some brazilian guy said that's an important thing to do!
oh and make sure to get hooks on the back! why?
because a brazilian guy said that's worth 4 points of course!!
even though theres a half dozen other leg configurations stronger than hooks from the back?
but that doesn't score points! I have to score poooooints!! I'm scoooorrrinnnggg!!!

literally you right now
>t. No fights
Cry more
>he calls jiujitsu matches fights
how much more cringe could you get bro?
rolling in the gym and rolling in a high school basketball court are totally different, you see in the gym you didn't pay to have some brazilian guy tell you who he thinks did better at the end!

I don't like that you're making me be so mean to you
I don't want to bully, but sometimes bullying is necessary to correct bad behavior so if I have to be the one to do it then so be it. It's for your own good
>says jiujitsu matches are less than fights
>wont even do jiujitsu matches though because he’s afraid of getting hurt
You realize this makes you look even worse right? Seriously my sides can only take so much.
now it's just starting to look like you're the one that doesn't really understand what goes into competitions
you talked about ADCC and pans. If you're legitimately trying to make a run at those then training is your full time job, which is really retarded because it's a job that doesn't pay any money.

I guess your exposure to athletes is limited so I'll let you know, getting injured at competitions isn't the problem, it's the injuries you're going to get in the gym preparing for them which you're going to neglect by continuing to over train, making things that may have healed on their own now require surgery to fix, and the overall pain and poor quality of life. That's not even mentioning all the hormonal problems you're looking at from rubber band dieting and weight cuts along with the aforementioned special acai which is mandatory to use if you even want to have a chance these days

gordon ryan is one of the maybe 5 guys in the world able to make a living off of this shit and look at the cost to his health to do it. The guy is in and out of the hospital with infections and needs to take anti-nausea medication every day because he cant digest food properly anymore
any time he has a match scheduled now it's a 50/50 shot if he'll medically be able to do it. and thats the BEST case scenario for the guy at the top of the sport
now imagine all that shit except you don't have the money and gf with a giant gear clit to come home to
good luck to you hopefully you can get that first stripe on your blue belt soon
now that the retard has burned himself out the adults can start talking again

effectively what it comes down to is just because a person has a skill doesn't mean they're good at relaying the information, and since most athletes fall into the category of low IQ individuals the only way they can teach something is to say "just look at what I do and then copy it bro"
do yourself a favor and stop listening to what the "instructor" is telling you to do all the time, you need to be focused on personal skill goals you set for yourself. If you're forced to do static karate drilling and kata the way most bjj schools do and that's your only choice then just play along, then use the open mat time for personal development which is where you'll see actual improvements
>You will learn much faster and much more completely with your understanding If you are the one making the discoveries
I feel like there's a middleground between the brazil monkey see monkey do approach and the hands-off approach. Mindless repetition doesn't build critical thinking, but fumbling around in the dark with the occasional hint isn't leveraging the expert's knowledge efficiently.
It shouldn't be fumbling around in the dark, the instructor should be putting specific constraints on the player to Force a desired behavior to emerge
I think it's really a more active teaching style because the instructions will change depending on how the class is behaving

As an example I will give an exercise to play with
Then we bring it in and I ask everybody is there something they learned during that process, or is there something you maybe had trouble with during that which stands out to you?
And it's a group brain storm at that point where students can mention hey I realized putting my hand over here was a really effective frame. Great
and someone else can say oh I was having trouble moving towards the back because of where his knee was
Ok anyone have an idea about what he can do there?
"His right arm is free so try posting the elbow to give yourself a better angle?"
Ok let's go back and do the exercise again, keep in mind what we just talked about about
Doing it this way is immediate feedback dozens of times in a short amount of time
I bet you can't fight for shit and are a DYEL as well.
Great advice.

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