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previous >>181554
>>
>>195013
I know it's fiction, But Kyokushin guys can move this fluidly instead of just pushing forward with punches?
>https://youtu.be/l1UhDBURW-s?si=8640xShZ7N6Fu3e0
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>>195032
>Kyokushin guys can move this fluidly instead of just pushing forward with punches?
No. (but Max Dedik in one interview said rules of IKO1 changed recently and fights became more maneuverable, but IDK)
>>
met this guy personally at a state championship while he was taking a MASSIVE shit in the full-contact fighters bathroom
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>>195304
Lol, you talking about Eddie Emin or Max Dedik?
>>
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13349401/Karate-expert-fights-bear-kicking-face-attack-predator-runs-away-mountains-Japan.html
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>>195401
based as fuck
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>>195401
Based.
I remember how I travelled to Japan and got lost in forest at night on my way to the inn, found some road and met the bell with sign "In case of bear attack ring the bell". Damn that was scary. It was like 10 km from the inn and I walked this road, cheked mail (because previously I emailed inn owner that I will be very late because I'm walking along a path through the forest) and inn owner mailed me back something like "Be careful because there are bears in the forests" and it scared me again. Finally I found bigger highway and a car stopped and some kind woman offered to give me a ride to the nearest city. I used some mix of japanese and english and said something like "kuma no mori, scary!" and she laughed and started nodding. It was near Nagiso
>>
>>195447
>kuma no mori, scary!
https://youtu.be/ZAbPaQuvjIE?si=2HHHWtLM5IeMldBQ


On that day mankind received a grim reminder
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankebetsu_brown_bear_incident
>>
Karate peaked in the K-1 years when kyokushin tried it's best to be kickboxing
>>
Does anyone else compete, or want to compete? I train at the dojo three times a week, but my Shihan says to get truly in fighting shape, I need to train much more often, I already do weights and bodyweight exercises at lunch time in my work gym, but he says I need to find some more time on the heavy bag, even if it means training until late at night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJCjyYB2I9c
I was at this tournament last year, but in a different category, here are some highlights.
>>195032
It depends on the ruleset, the problem is with the timelimit, the size of tournaments, and the nature of tournaments themselves. People like Valeri win tournaments because they favour very economical movements that minimise effort, are extremely efficient, and highly effective. Valeri is boring as hell to watch but he's a scientist of Kyokushin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2aeVb_J2Ws
this fight is probably the most fluid kyokushin fight I can think of, but there are others. The last IKO tournament had some more springy fighters, but with the big tournaments very few early fights will go beyond the first round, so you have to get in there and go as hard and as fast as you can so the judges choose you. Perhaps one day there should be a more drawn out kyokushin tournament, no round limits, over a few days instead of just two.
>>
>>195401
Based Jap man
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>>195454
Kyokushin did that in the 1970s when Oyama opened up a Kickboxing gym that Terutomo Yamazaki (1st winner of the All Japan Kyokushin championship).

When K-1 debuted, it was already built on Ishii's Seidokaikan challenge matches against other styles. He envisioned K-1 as a promotion to bridge all the fighting disciplines (regardless of whatever organization they were champions in) to compete under rules that they could successively utilize their techniques. Early K-1 allowed more knees to the clinch/neck-wrestling so long as it was continuous attack and not jockeying around for several seconds to gain decisive leverage and angles like Muay Thai does. This got dropped later on.
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>>195454
There's still hundreds of Japanese kickboxers who come from kyokushin karate backgrounds even today.
>>
>>
So you can attack the spleen by kicking someone's calf
So THIS is the power of karate!

https://youtu.be/Q4jbXAA_nrs?si=jG9Fitw-lZpNPTBD
>>
>>195401
What's the best karate style to fight a bear?
>>
Redpill me on hand conditioning
Waste of time or important?
>>
>>197481
Mostly a waste of time. Firstly the time you need to contition them you could have been training techniques or endurance. Secondly if you really go down the conditioning route full force you will have an enlarged hand that got so hard its not able to do fine motorskills anymore. Additionally you get athritis.
There is something to sometimes punching a sandbag to get a feeling for the correct bare nuckle technique, but more than that is just useless.
>>
https://youtu.be/b-bFCXTCCMg?si=Tfs1d7orDfo_raYy
Kyokushin got canonised by Pride
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Any kyokushin/kyokushin related live uchi-deshi/live-in student programs? Just quit my job and have a lot saved up.
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>>197481

It's real but not worth it for >99% of people, because how often do you actually have to hit something with an uncovered fist in your daily life? Even sports like kyokushin don't allow strikes to the head so it would only be worht it if you made a living doing something like lethwei or bare knuckle boxing. Even then those sports allow wrist wraps so... The consequence of going far enough in hand conditioning to be able to hit hard shit without any damage is having fucked up hands lol.

https://youtu.be/qQzAYTOPeQM?si=rNi2Ky5SwK1XTrPBV

https://youtu.be/65UY_8LuMKk?si=E2ZznbuMucAHCkK0
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Kyokushin fighters and full contact enjoyers, what are your gym workouts?
Is 3x5 a meme?
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What's the difference between Shotokan and Shotokai?
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>>198280
That Chink dude's hands are all fucked, fucking insanity. Morio Higaonna uses some Chinese liniment to be able to do the hand conditioning he does until now.
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>>198490
iirc shotokai was founded by people who believed that they had deviated from Funakoshi's teachings, and thus they formed their own splinter organisation.
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>>198490
Shotokai is more spiritual/philosophical approach and Shotokan is a more sporty approach to Funakoshi's karate.
Basically Shotokai is more like Funakoshi's karate trying to be in his early teachings and Shotokan is was his son Gigo and Nakayama teached in the late days of the old master.
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>>197481
Small amounts are good like doing knuckle pushups and hitting the bag barehanded but the whole iron sand esque stuff where you try to turn it into a brick where it's useless for anything but punches is just stupid.
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>>198687
I remember my Chinese shifu telling me to slap and backhand a tree a few times everyday alongside finger push ups to strengthen the fingers and for you to be able to use open hand techniques. None of that iron sand hand or finger fucking a jar of pebbles. I opted for slapping my punching bag instead. Supposedly this is a gradual process that takes years.
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>>198049
>instructor says he knows a few guys in Japan who could host me and that I should definitely do it
We're so back
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>>198049
Are you black belt? What dan? What's your competitional achievemnts? Just curious
>>
What it's more valuable?
A dozen of kyokushin fighters being successful in kickboxing (K-1) or one shotokan fighter (Machida) being successful in modern MMA?
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>>198742
>What's more valuable? Amerigoys or Japoids?
>>
>>
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>>197481
>>197515
>>198280
>>198687
Pretty much. I got this out of a book on Okinawan Goju that one of my senseis gave me. Imagine walking around with that shit and having to explain it to everyone without looking like a dork.
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>>199571
To think that a average boxer still hits harder than someone with knuckles like this
>>
I started about a month ago.
Does the Sanchin stance actually see use in sparring?
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>>200014
lmao
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>>200014
Everything you learn in kihon and kata except obvious punches and kicks is not suitable for sparring
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>>200020
>Everything you learn in kihon and kata is not suitable for sparring
yikes
>>
>>200014
It's extremely powerful to keep your base when passing the guard and your opponent is attempting to pull you down

Remember, karate is fundamentally a grappling art that has lost its way, and many of the techniques are now vestigial because people don't understand their usage

https://youtu.be/f9y2rpbxfhI?si=qNtG9wopyUbsht5G
>>
>>200223
>https://youtu.be/f9y2rpbxfhI?si=qNtG9wopyUbsht5G [Embed]
God damn holy cringe these are situations that happen a lot in high competitive high rivalry sports like wrestling or grappling and non of these sports uses these cringe shit. That really tells you the value of these """techniques""".
IF this techniques WORKED high competitive high RIVALRY sports WOULD ALREADY BE USING THEM.
Also LMAO at every time when someone reinvents what kata """really""" means.
>>
>>200223
Also LMAO at this whole situation
>Look, this fancy techniques really work!
>Now let me demonstrate them on underweight manlet asians that don't know how wrestle
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>>199984
Afaik, the whole knuckle thing is not a goal but a byproduct of training meant to "harden" the hand structuraly. Exagerated calluses become a liability because they can easily tear off, so at that point I would much rather clip them myself.
>>
>>199984
The other part I don't understand is that a different emphasis is placed on punches in Okinawan Karate, too. You're not going for insane knockout power most of the time because you'd just break your hand, anyway. Conditioning your hands to that point seems kind of... well, pointless.
>>
Why does that guy who hates karate and has never done it show up in every thread? Has he really got nothing better to do?
>>
>>200301
I've done two years of shotokan, two years of kyokushin in both IKO1 and IFK and some minor training in goju ryu to see how they train kata. I have competed under WKF and kyokushin rules, also competed twice in kata competitions. I owned all Nakayama's books on kata and prayed on them when I trained shotokan. Then i had big break of training and got interest in grappling arts and did some freestyle wrestling and grappling with minor success, just as amateur, but at least I saw how grappling works.
Your post is just a cry of a bitch and really means
>p-please stop saying true and unpleasant things, it makes me uncomfortable, l-let me stay in my delusions
Also I don't hate karate, WKF and knockdown karate are really cool and useful and responsible for all real public successes of karatekas.
Now, what's your experience?
>>
>>200309
Admittedly it's not as much as yours, not by a long way. I'd come from stuff like kickboxing when I was much younger, and boxing more recently with a couple of things in between, but nothing to write home about.
The thing of it is, I've been watching/hearing people shit on karate for nearly my whole life. I'm not saying they're right or wrong. But rather than just taking their word for it, I wanted to see for myself. I'm only about six months in to Okinawan Goju Ryu. So yeah, I know I'm probably about to get a torrent of abuse from you. But that's all I have to go on right now. But I'm not coming at this from a place of superiority, either.
>stutter typing
No, I'm just trying to find out why you do this.
>I don't hate karate
This is the part I'm stuck on. If you don't hate it, then why are you always in here bitching about it and shitting on it? For someone who doesn't hate it, you have a strange way of showing it.
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>>200309
Navy seal tier post
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>>200317
Maybe it will surprise you, but I'm also OP of last three or four threads. Forgot to say.
>If you don't hate it, then why are you always in here bitching about it and shitting on it?
I don't like kata and don' see any value in them. I would be glad if someone will convince me. I'm not as close minded as you may think. For example, I was thinking my whole life that freezing after punches with straighten hand is stupid, but recently I watched Max Dedik's interview and he said that when he trained punching power he used methodic of boxing coach Husyainov Zofer (a Verhoshanski student himself!) and one of his exercise was to freeze in the end of punch. So it convinced me that may be there is some wisdom in freezing after punching.
But I never ever saw any good explanation of why katas are good, or why techniques they contain are the techniques which this particular instructor decifers, or what are the benefits of kata in training coordination etc and etc.
I really like kyokushin and thinking to return to it, but when I'm thinking of all this useless hours I would spend on katas it makes feel sick.
And I don't like it either lot of stuff that comprises from using kata as method of training, for example stances, particular stances with exactly this width and length and angles, and it should be low stances because some old fart back then concluded that this is how you LMAO train leg strength.
>>200321
>no one can train karate for four years
Yeah, you got me, I'm a liar. So what are benefits of kata again?
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>>200325
Well I'm not going to sit here and try to extol the virtues of kata to you. Partly because of my own lack of experience, and partly because I believe your mind is already made up. At this stage, the main explanation I've been given is basically so you can practice certain aspects of karate when you're by yourself. That's it. But I'm going to go out on not much of a limb here and guess that you've probably already been told that shitloads of times before, and it's failed to convince you. Fair enough, dude.
So far I've enjoyed practicing kata. But the place I train at quickly follows it up with two man drills where you practice the techniques with a person who does the opposite side of the same kata with you. Basically akin to using mit and pad drills like you'd see in a gym before they let you into a ring to spar.
One thing I have learned so far is that it seems that the type and quality of karate tuition that students receive from school-to-school is vastly different. Even at the place I go to now, there are lots of people, from beginner students, right up to the guys running the place, who have done other styles of karate in the past and found it in stark contrast to where they are now. I'm either quite fortunate, or I'm still blind to what's in front of me. Either way, I have to keep going to find that out for myself.
Oh, also: Sorry for kind of being a dick before. When I saw you trashing karate so much, I made assumptions that frankly I shouldn't have. I still don't entirely understand your stance on this, but it was still rash of me to do that. My intention is not to be combative with you about this. I'm just trying to understand what you're doing.
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>>200328
>Oh, also: Sorry for kind of being a dick before. When I saw you trashing karate so much, I made assumptions that frankly I shouldn't have. I still don't entirely understand your stance on this, but it was still rash of me to do that. My intention is not to be combative with you about this. I'm just trying to understand what you're doing.
It's OK, man, let me explain my view on kata. Sorry for lot of words and bad english.

1) Kata often compared to shadow boxing. But in boxing you learn punches and other movements first (or you have view on how to do them if you are very beginner), and then you sum up everything you learnt and HOW you learnt in your shadow boxing. In karate it's other way around - you learn very strange unnatural sequence of movements you have no idea how to use, and then maybe depending on your school and coach's interpretations you will be told what all that means.

2) But what all that means? What techniques are encoded in kata? How do we know? I already wrote that I met shit ton of interpretations of age uke - from just basic blocking technique to crazy things like it is a choke. The guy here https://youtu.be/f9y2rpbxfhI?si=qNtG9wopyUbsht5G mentions he heared age uke is a punch to the chin when you ducked under and gives his own interpretation. Karatekas often make wild guesses when they interpret stuff, like if I move slightly like this well maybe it could look like this grappling technique and if I move like that oh wow not it can be used like this technique. Often when you interpret something you need to change it drastically to make it work (you will see it further). There is shit ton of different interpretations and some karatekas make a rediculous claim that it is good when we have multiple interpretation of one thing because every time we train age uke to the air we somehow train all this techniques at once. I think it is wrong in many ways. Why? Because

3) technique is not sequence of body parts movements.
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>>200351
3) technique is not sequence of body parts movements. Technique is the best (most effective) way to apply force to something. First, I will give example from olympic weightlifting how it was given by Sergey Bondarenko. You can't learn technique of snatch and clean&jerk by using PVC pipe. What can you really learn with PVC pipe is sequence of body parts movements in snatch and clean&jerk. You can learn technique only if you have certain load on the barbell, because technique is about how you apply force, how you overcome knock over force of barbell, how you move under load etc. And when you add more weight on the barbell your technique should be corrected.
This is important in stand up grappling. Imaging such simple technique like arm drag. The sequnce of movements in the arm drag is really simple - you lower one of your hands and pull to yourself other hand. But to learn technique you must train it with opponent under various conditions - when your opponent relaxed and does not resist, when your opponent slightly resists, when opponent half resists, when your opponent fully resists, when your opponent resists with full force and tries to counter.
In kata you drill the sequence of movements, not the actual techniques. Training kata to me is same thing as performing arm drag sequence of movements to the air - it is bad way to learn technique. Rephrasing - sequent of movements appears from technique and its understanding, not other way around (it relates to point 1).
>>
>>200354
Without all that you'll never know are you even doing correct sequence of movements or not. You can see how drastically the sequence of movements in kata differ from what is performed with opponent in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PtYD_6W7BY&ab_channel=JesseEnkamp Look for example at 2:31 where Pinan Godan is showed. In kata everything is done with absolutley upright torso, but when he moves with opponent he constatnly bends to load his opponent and then he throws him, which can be done only with applying force at right angle to the body, and nothing from this important stuff happens in kata. Look at how judokas solo drill their similar throws - of course they bend in particular way, and often use rubber band TO APPLY FORCE (because this is really what technique is about). So this kata technique interpretations are either fantasies or the way they are trained in kata are absolutley useless.
Also you can really imagine how you can interpret arm drag as block somehow. But can you really train it both as block and as grappling technique awhen you train it to the air?
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>>200355
4) What does it mean to learn technique? I think it's when you feel you can perform it on resisting opponent at certain conditions (say you bent him, loaded him, off balanced, fake hit in the face so he makes needed reaction etc) and the technique will work. You can't learn technique if you can't test it on resisting opponent. Resisting opponent often provided via competitions and competition preparations. Karate rulesets don't have conditions to train techniques they have in kata. Also lot of this techniques are allowed at say grappling rulesets but they are so ineffective that they can't be performed on resisting opponent and only can be performed in aikido like conditions (I'm talking about different standing elbow locks).
Jesse Encamp in his video from above showed karate has lot of supposed grappling techniques, IIRC he even showed arm drag. But does karate has any ruleset to use arm drag? Who would learn arm drag more effectively - freestyle wrestler who trains it on resisting opponents and performs it on competitions or karateka who does it to the air several times per week during kata (and you should remember, at every long kata run he would do this technique only once or twice!) and once a week on non resisting opponent during bunkai?
>>
>>200357
5) Sanchin. I never saw any good explanation why you should make efforts in that particular way and how is it usefull for fighting and I saw thousands of Bogdan Kurilko videos on this kata and he is big expert in goju ryu. He always says this kata somehow programs you to move in certain way, but when I see his students sparring they move just like very bad kyokushin guys. When I see how 5th dan gray-haired masters spar it's always look like fight of two rednecks that never trained.
But let's say sanchin has something useful in it, say this buttwink and core hardening with slow exagarated hand strengthening really provide benefits and for example makes us punch harder. Why can't we isolate this particular movement and drill it to death and perform it again and again to have even more benefits? Why no one does this if it is that usfull?
6) Every karate successor comes from sport karate and uses techniques that were developed for sport and not derived from kata. We have various WKF style fighters that move like in boxing pendulum, are good at managing disctance and use throws and trips that don't exist in kata. And we have various knockdown style fighters that also don't have any kata influence on them.
7) Does kata train some abstract coordination? Maybe. But running, skiing, lifting weights, doing gymnastics also trains coordination. Why weightlifters don't train coordination by doing gymnastics? Because it is not specific to them. Kata so drastically differs from what you will perform in the fight that it not gives you that specific coordination.
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>>200358
8) Does kata train proper footwork? No way. WKF guys do their drills for competitions, again, they move similar to boxing pendulum style. Kyokushin guys use their own style. Both karate styles (if we call WKF karate style) use same katas and have drastically different footwork. You can say kata teaches proper footwork for da streets, but how do you think that would work? Like you have your sport style footwork and when you have street fight you suddenly switch to proper kata footwork?
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>>200355
>Without all that you'll never know are you even doing correct sequence of movements or not. You can see how drastically the sequence of movements in kata differ from what is performed with opponent in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PtYD_6W7BY&ab_channel=JesseEnkamp [Embed] Look for example at 2:31 where Pinan Godan is showed. In kata everything is done with absolutley upright torso, but when he moves with opponent he constatnly bends to load his opponent and then he throws him, which can be done only with applying force at right angle to the body, and nothing from this important stuff happens in kata.
I want to add here. Lot of people say kata has idealized form of techniques. I just dont understand how idealized form of a throw where you must bend to succeed can have zero bend
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>>200301
Karate gets beaten in every single inter-style fight
>https://youtu.be/iSHq-t3unjA?si=BB2iSCMBhPDkkN57
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>>200374
*blocks your path*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol7uAQ22Wn8
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>>200376
No elbows and clinch allowed
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>>200377
cope
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>>200379
To think that Royce could just simply take this guy down and broke his "legend" status
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>>200380
A karate guy famously beat Helio Gracie so bad that they've been mad about it for 70 years.
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>>200386
A Judo fighter probably beat Mas Oyama but there is no information about it
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>>200387
>probably
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>>200283
>IF this techniques WORKED high competitive high RIVALRY sports WOULD ALREADY BE USING THEM
I don't fault you too much for watching a half hour video but explicitly he shows the application in collegiate wrestling

>>200325
>So what are benefits of kata again?
practicing them as a big group as a critical part of your training? none worth mentioning
as a way to remember techniques? must be pretty effective since every martial art under the sun engages in the same practice, and you're only singling out karate because they have a word for it

karate was always traditionally taught 1 on 1 or in small groups with individualized attention, doing kata as a big group punching the air is something the japanese took from europeans because that's how the west taught the military and it's an effective way to scale things up to being commercially viable

karate without kata = a niche passion project
karate with kata = a business you can make money doing
that's why the shitty kata based training karate is also the most widespread. Because nobody teaching it the right way has enough students to make a living off of it
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>>200390
>I don't fault you too much for watching a half hour video but explicitly he shows the application in collegiate wrestling
He can show whatever applications he wants, no one uses this shit. What wrestlers of what level did he train?
>practicing them as a big group as a critical part of your training?
It's not critical part of training
>as a way to remember techniques?
As I showed above kata is not a way to work on technique
>must be pretty effective since every martial art under the sun engages in the same practice
I already showed above that other martial arts 1) don't need interpretaion of their techniques (they don't need bunkai) 2) learn technique first and then derive from them sequence of movement while in karate it is done other way around. This leads to cringe situation where you walk like a pillar and imagine you do a hip throw
>that's how the west taught the military
I'm not military and don't want to be teached like them. Civic ways of learning >>> military ways of learning.
>pic
Contradicts nothing from what I said. I answered million times already why kata has nothing to do with shadow boxing and what's the difference between doing technique like karate guys and bjj guys from bottom row
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>>200393
being that I'm both an expert in karate and bjj I can tell you all the silly shit you think is exclusive karate is just as present in bjj

>As I showed above kata is not a way to work on technique
and there's the rub
imagine putting yourself back 100 years ago when most people in your community were completely illiterate so they can't keep note books, there were no videos that could be referenced, so how do you codify the information you want them to know?
you make a kata. A physical act they can keep with them and reference during their practice
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>>200390
And again. Even if techniques he uses are correct. How does it relates to kata? Kata also has punches, which are 100% usable and what? I'm saying 1) katas are bad way for practicing anything, especially grappling technques 2) even if katas has good technues you still doesn't have competitional rule set to test them and use them.
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>>200389
The grappler always wins
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>>200394
>imagine putting yourself back 100 years
Yeah cool, but now imagine we are not 100 years back and live in present
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>>200394
>all the silly shit you think is exclusive karate is just as present in bjj
Like what?
>>
>>200398
so watch a video

which you're going to practice in the air by yourself a few times, then compliantly with a partner before you ever try it live
same exact shit
>>200399
it's exactly the same really
the typical bjj class follows the same format as a typical karate class
>>
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>>200404
Oh sure bud BJJ and karate are the same, this is a hip throw according to karate in pic by the way. Katas are awesome!
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>>200404
Look! Wrestlers will say it wrestling, but I know it is karate
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>>200408
its easy if you have an untrained eye to not be able to put it together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kv8HkGWo2Q
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>>200415
I take BJJ, Sambo or wrestling over this
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>>200379
Also it takes a super elite karate guy to just stand a minimal chance against a average nak muay
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>>200446
Everyone always talks about how good at fighting muay thai is and yet here we are with them existing in their little cockfighting bubble destroying their bodies for pennies instead of on the world stage making actual money

Must not be that good outside of its safe space
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>>200451
Just in time
>https://youtu.be/Mw6UbxKNjJQ?si=UzzAvTWDAHCpIktF
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>>200451
>existing in their little cockfighting bubble destroying their bodies
that's real fighting, something that karate will never be part of
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>>200446
>>200451
Everyone talks about how proven muay thai is, but there's actually been very, very few high level nak muay in MMA. There's been multiple UFC champions with karate backgrounds. How many UFC champs have bonafide muay thai credentials? Practically none. Best you'll get is Brazilians who did "muay thai" while competing in vale tudo or some random alphabet regional belt nobody's ever heard of. How many MT stadium champs have a UFC belt? Zero.
>>
>>200461
Aside of the few karate guys, every striking in UFC it's muay thai
>>
>>200460
>>200465
Kickboxing is karate based, there's no escaping it
The K1 style, the basis of kickboxing in the west is karate

When something reaches the level of necessity that it loses its identity because everyone has to do it. It has just been absorbed into the culture
>>
>>200465
>every striking in UFC it's muay thai
Braindead statement. There's only a handful of mma guys that fight in a style that's recognizably thai. Most strikers in MMA are doing shitty boxing or kickboxing with low kicks and the occasional elbow, which does not a nak muay make. Just likes someone being able to do a shitty single leg or double leg doesn't make them a wrestler.
>>
>>200404
>it's exactly the same really
So how many times you performed rear naked choke to the air and thought it was a block?
>>
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>>200415
>he trained his eye so well he sees suplex throw in pic
>"yeah bro, wrestling is just the same!"
My regards
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>>200488
Just opened reddit to see what they think about kata and exactly this cringe "it's a block a punch and a throw AT THE SAME TIME" popped up. Yeah, it's precisely what happenes in other martial arts!
>>
>this style vs that style
Why do you guys always do this pissing contest? You're not going to be defending yourself against another trained fighter unless you fight competitively. It's going to be some goon who doesn't know much and has probably either full of alcohol, or himself.
I swear, every martial arts discussion always devolves into a cheesy 1980s martial arts movie plot.
>>
>>200488
>>200489
>>200498
you seem to be under the illusion that any of this is about you and convincing you to change your opinion matters to me
you asked a question, you received your answer

you can do with that information what you will, improve yourself or live with your dunning kruger bias
>>
>>200556
>yeah karate is totally like bjj
>how? um... i-it's not about y-you, p-please stop asking, something something duning kruger
If you not ready to answer you could not play your "I'm such a cool guy you will not understand" card and just pass by. You never said anything interesting or reasonable anyway, keep imagining anything about yourself
>>
>>200565
take a look at every bjj class you've ever been to and how you spend the beginning shrimping up and down the mat and spinning on the walls

oh wow such practicality
>>
>>200568
This is how I know didn't read my posts. I already answered this in point 1 "Why kata is not shadow boxing". Also
1) shrimping is done only for warm up (and penetrations step too!)
2) you have competitional ruleset to utilize shrimping
3) you don't have multiple interpretations for shrimping; shrimping can't be a block, a punch and a throw at the same time
4) you do shrimps how you will use them with opponent, they don't turn into something that doesn't look like shrimps unlike supposed throws here >>200408 >>200489
5) you don't spend half an hour for shriming unlike in karate where you can spend whole workout for kata
6) finally, shrimps aren't encoded in kata in a way that you should decifer and think is it shrimp or not. In BJJ if you know you need a shrimp in actual practice (sparrings), you have a shrimp. In karate you don't know do you need age uke as a block, or as a punch, or as a grip break
>>
>>200508
Blame the Gracies
>>
>>200569
here is the flaw and where you're mistaken
shrimping done at the beginning of every class is completely different from the real application
your goal in the exercise is to move yourself vertically across the mat, the goal in application is to move horizontally
so the supposed fundamental move isn't even being practiced correctly for its application
the entire house is built on a foundation of lies. This is just one example

now you can dislike the way karate is taught, as we've already covered karate traditionally has been 1 on 1 and small personal group classes and the big rooms full of people dancing around and punching the air is something they copied from the french
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oll8rn32Ns4
this takes place 13 years before karate ever arrived in japan and adopted kata
>>
>>200573
but* the point is you might dislike the way the information is relayed, but that doesn't mean the information is bad
>>
>>200572
I'd say they're more a symptom than a root cause. This shit was going on before them, and now that they're not as relevant as they used to be, it's still continuing, anyway. It's just gay.
>>
>>200600
I think it's funny the way they continuously pissed into the wind
>make challenges to great fighters of the era
>lose every time
>lower sights to beating up on randoms on the street
>look how great and powerful our martial arts are!!
>>
>>200607
>challenges to great fighters of the era
>lose
Actually, this part I wouldn't fault them for. Win or lose, they took a chance and I'll always respect that kind of thing. However
>lower sights to beating up randoms on the street
Is a different story. You can take the ape out of Brazil, but you can't take Brazil out of the ape.
>>
>>200573
>shrimping done at the beginning of every class is completely different from the real application
No. In warm ups after you shrimped (bridged and turned) you straighten your body in a way you can do another shrimp and move your body across the mat. In application with opponent you simply don't do last part. Also you missed all my other points, also not all BJJ gyms and certainly not all grappling gyms do shrimps in warm ups.
>This is just one example
And what are other examples?
>dancing around and punching the air is something they copied from the french
Why should I care? There is multiple evidences that old Okinawan karate didn't have kumite. Should we also ditch kumite because 100 years ago karate didn't have it?
https://medium.com/motobu-ryu-blog/the-decline-of-okinawan-kumite-372aaac83ec8
>>
>>200627
100 or more years ago there was no protective gear and medicine was complete shit, people still believed in miasma and humors, more relevant in Asia it was about accupoints and shit

The point being at that time kumite wasn't some kind of trivial practice to be taken lightly. Minor injuries by today's standards were life changing for people back then
>>
>>200630
Well, I agree with that
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>>200014
You can use the internal body mechanics from Sanchin in sparring, controlling your breathing, generating tension in your lat muscles, but you should just stand there in sanchin unless you want to get hit. Sanchin as a kata and a stance is mainly for conditioning, when we do Sanchin kata or any moves in Sanchin it’s quite normal for our instructor to give everyone a whack to make sure they’re in a strong position with their muscles under tension
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>>200635
You shouldn’t just stand there*
>>
>upward blocks don't work-ACK
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>>200719
>Gets bonked by a motorcycle helmet
>Proceeds to beat up nigger
Asian dude practices with the makiwara using headbutts. Regularly smacks his head with bundles of bamboo rods.
>>
>>200719
>>200867
Just discovered there was a longer video. Turns out pajeet had already tried twice and gotten beaten for his troubles before trying the old helmet trick.

>karate defense is so unrealistic; nobody does a lunging punch in real life
APOLOGIZE
twitter.com/NaratifRakyat/status/1798437076033302838
>>
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>>200873
>Hikite
He should've grabbed his arm tho.
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Fuck, guys. I think I'm at a bit of a crossroads here.
>done stuff like kickboxing/muay thai and boxing in the past
>loved all that shit
>loved that most things aren't that complicated and you can spend a lot of time mastering fundamental skills
>love that everything is taught to you in the context of someone else trying to hurt you
>loved that while they don't force you to spar, if you've trained for a little bit, show you're not a maniac and you just ask them, they'll usually let you start sparring fairly early on
>great for practicing how to actually deal with a person trying to hurt you
>have seen a hell of a lot of hate for karate over the years
>rather than just taking people's word on it, i decide to go to see and experience for myself
>find a local dojo that teaches a fairly strict, traditional, non-tournament form of karate
>love that there's a myriad of techniques and tactics to use to defend yourself
>a lot of techniques and strategies also seem needlessly complex, too
>too reliant on, "you do this, then this, then this," without really acknowledging that the person you'd actually be doing this stuff to would be struggling against you in some way and would probably stop it, or at least make it much more difficult to do to them
>they do spar, but only among more senior students who've been doing it for quite a while
>all this while telling you it's supposed to teach you to defend yourself
I thought comparing combat sports and traditional martial arts would help me out. In some ways it has, but in others it's kind of muddied the waters for me more, as well. I don't know which way to go on this. Can both sides be reconciled? Can I do both and learn a way that I can make one compliment the other? Or am I crazy for even thinking that?
I don't care how ignorant or abusive your answers are, just give them to me. I'm trying to get input from all kinds of people on this. So I'll be making the same post in the MMA General, too.
>>
>>201252
Oh, I forgot to add:
When you reply, please state what martial arts/combat sports/whatever you've done in the past. Included as many details as you can. If you just train, if you also spar, if you've fought competitively, if you've used your skills to defend yourself at some point in your daily life. All that shit. I don't want to hear from people who just watch and read shit on the internet but have never even set foot inside a gym or a dojo or whatever relevant training facility.
>>
>>201253
>>201252
Wew lad. I could write a friggin' monograph on this. The relationship between traditional martial arts and combat sports is a subject near and dear to my heart. But I assure you, you don't want to put up with my wall-of-text autistic rambling. I'll try to keep this short.

I recommend the Jigoro Kano approach. Kano was an absolutely god-gifted superlative genuis, IMHO.

When Kano was organizing, codifying, and modernizing old jiujitsu techniques to develop his curriculum, he separated techniques into two categories: those safe enough for daily randori practice, and those that were too risky. The risky techniques were NOT discarded, they were just practiced in katas and drills instead of free sparring, for the sake of safety. Tragically, these days a lot of judo schools only focus on the sporty parts and disregard the kata and banned techniques.
(Please some better-versed martial arts historian correct me if I got that wrong)

I think it's worth learning old traditional/historical arts. Learn all the funky exotic techniques and esoteric theories from old arts. Frankly it's worth preserving just as an intangible cultural artifact if nothing else.

But then participate, train, and compete in a modern combat sport to develop the athleticism and sense of range and timing to actually fight. You'll probably have a much smaller catalog of techniques, but you'll get the opportunity to apply those techniques against resistance.

For example: study very old koryu kenjitsu. Reproduce those historical techniques. Try to understand them in the context of their time. Try to empathize with the people of that time and place, and the reasons why they did what they did, and how they did it... and also, practice kendo and compete at the highest level against the best competition you can find. Similar examples will occur to you: fencing and HEMA, boxing and classical pugilism, muay Thai and muay boran, karate and kickboxing, koryu jiujitsu and judo/bjj, etc
>>
>>201261
>I'll try to keep this short.
Mission: failed.
Hopefully this autistic screeching is at least semi-coherent. My background: long story. Short version: train from child, still training. Karate, muay thai, jiujitsu. Swear to God I train at actual gyms with actual coaches.
>>
>>201261
>I think it's worth learning old traditional/historical arts. Learn all the funky exotic techniques and esoteric theories from old arts. Frankly it's worth preserving just as an intangible cultural artifact if nothing else.
>But then participate, train, and compete in a modern combat sport to develop the athleticism and sense of range and timing to actually fight. You'll probably have a much smaller catalog of techniques, but you'll get the opportunity to apply those techniques against resistance.
This is more or less what I was already thinking.
And yes, you were quite coherent.
And thank you. At least I feel a little less crazy now.
>>
>>201252
I ain't readin and I'm just assuming your question

Here's the fact, if you wanna get good at something you have to do the thing
That's why combat sports makes better fighters and some retard hoodrat with a room temp iq and 9 months of mma training would beat the fuck out of a lifelong karate practitioner with a masters degree
And while he's getting beat up he'll groan but I read primary source manuals ack!

All the theoretical mumbo-jumbo isn't worth anything without the application
And I always find it Cringe to see these middle-aged guys standing around in a circle discussing theoretically what the application of this Movement might be instead of just Going Out and trying it and see what it does

Another reason karate makes shit fighters is they often just try to do a kata against a person with big exaggerated KIIIYAAAAHHH and hikite with strong rooted stances
Just do the moves, stop trying to make it "look" like karate
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>>201252
Not all TMA is the same. Image is bait but it gets the idea across.
>>
>>201345
>Not all TMA is the same
I've realised that. I've been lucky with the place I've found, as they do seem quite different to sport/point karate dojos. But even then I still have doubts and I can't be sure if they're genuine, or just the residual effects of so many people telling me karate is shit.
>>
good gloves for kyokushin sparring? i've been using some cheapo nobrand MMA gloves for a while but they're a bit crap.
>>
>>200719
>that smile when he turns
fear the man who is thrilled by your aggression
>>
>>200719
>man rightfully defends himself
>someone else hinders him
I really hate that shit.
>>
>>201630
It’s not exactly self defense when you’re at the point of kicking an incapacitated man in the head. That guy was trying to keep him out of prison.
>>
>>201645
He came back and attacked him from behind though, that's why walking away is risky
I've seen it happen before where people fight, someone loses and says uncle and then attacks the winner from behind with a strangle hold as he walks away
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Are there any older traditions, still alive today, than Gojo Ryu? TI maybe? I saw one short documentary\ friendly youtube chapter about a TI dojo, very neat and interesting. they even train toe-tips and have Kobudo weapons (?) at least vintage home-made nunchucks.
Also Im not saying older=better. Im just genuinely interested in the oldest living ancestor.
>>
>>201662
The different Shorin-ryu styles? Do Shotokan but train it like as if it's Shorin-ryu. It basically is Jap Shorin-ryu anyway.
>>
>>201508
I thought Kyokushin dudes never spar with gloves?
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>>200867
how to head makiwara without brain damage?
I know chin conditioning is BS and coaches who pummel trainee's face are bullshitters or sadistic.
this one is from korea (maybe TKD? Not sure), they do a clean headbutt to break concrete, among other "tricks". EVEN IF the molten lead is a parlo trick, is the rest of the demo. legit?
>https://www.military.com/video/specialties-and-personnel/martial-arts/extreme-martial-arts-eating-molten-lead/664064453001
(Supposedly the molten lead trick is about cold spoon + have cold water in mouth. the lead is real tho, so massive balls to do it. one slip and it burns for real)
>>
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>>201669
>Lead poisoning
Damn, Gooks are insane. Also I don't there is any "head conditioning". Not even in Uechi-ryu and Goju-ryu who preserved most of it's kung fu conditioning and techniques don't have anything about head conditioning. Hell, just wear a hat if you really need to protect your head inconspicuously. Like one of these brimless caps and try to modify it to have a harder dome (hard leather, etc.) and band (aluminum).
>>
>>201664
I have a buddy that does Kyokushin. They drill with gloves and headgear when training because it's retarded not to defend yourself against head shots via hands. People mistake Kyokushin's no face punches solely on tournament footage. Even the 50's and 60's footage of Oyama's dojo show his students putting on boxing gloves and duking it out.

That being said, karate is stupid. There are some applications that I think have merit like how they think of parrying and countering as well as footwork, body posturing, and some nifty techniques like toe kicks and close-quarters grappling. But the rest of it is junk.

Somebody should apply bare-knuckle boxing with karate to help people gain a better idea of open-hand fighting.
>>
>>201713
>>201669
The kung fu method requires you to start from very young. It's passive pressure via headstands. You can find pictures of the impressions skulls made over years near the same spots they did finger conditioning at Shaolin. There's probably some better ways you could implement it now, but it's absolutely going to have to be passive still if you want your walnut to stay crispy.
>>
>>201664
We do bag work and sparring with gloves. People block with their elbows, getting your hand obliterated by an elbow block is not fun.
>>201669
Only real way to toughen your head is to do lots of neck exercises, like neck bridges. Tough neck, less head movement when struck, brain less likely to bounce around. Be careful, some stuff can cause Norwood
>>
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>>201730
>Do headstands for years
Sounds like too much work compared to >>201811 suggestion or wearing a discreet hachigane disguised as a hat.
>>
h-haiyaa!

https://youtu.be/jrTFqR_G9ws?si=Pmk9Rj40fPo9ShIq
>>
>go to karate class
>stand around talking about how to avoid fighting instead of practicing fighting
>spend 100x as much time theoretically discussing leverage points and manipulations than you do practicing the move
https://youtu.be/GKF9hEHlv0s?si=4q9nSw5AfkAOSYgN
>>
https://youtu.be/NetbRjEAbRk?si=kOP8ZnUQdVP5D0Aw
It's funny how such a sadomasochistic style still looks so average in the ring, he did more that most karate masters anyway.
>>
>>201992
WKF point karate has a more valuable transfer of skills in a real fight than kyokushin and nobody is able to prove me wrong
>muh contact

how about muh defensive skills and range management
it'll be way easier to teach a shotofag some combinations than it would be to teach a kyokutard correct footwork from the ground up
and hell, they'll need to throw their hand combinations out the window too since it leaves their head wide open
>>
>>201993
Doing either in this day and age is completely pointless if you are concerned about real fighting, but then again being concerned about real fighing is also completely pointless in this day and age.

Think with point Karate style is Machida and Horiguchi are great success stories but then you see karate combat and it is all complete trash. Seriously the high level wkf athletes have never reached the level of those guys and maybe never can the jka old style of point sparring was actually unironically harder style than the modern wkf.

Obviously if you consider kickboxing as a legitimate metric there is no comparison that could be drawn where point sparring looks better than kyokushin because all the talented kyokushin kids are fed into the kickboxing circuit in Japan.
>>
>>202014
>Think with point Karate style is Machida and Horiguchi are great success stories
Also Robert Whittaker
>the high level wkf athletes have never reached the level of those guys
I'm sure Rafael Aghayev can kick asses
>the jka old style of point sparring was actually unironically harder style than the modern wkf
I'm tired of hearing about le based jka and le cringe wkf. They teach same skills for kumite basically, their sparrings look slightly different because of slightly different scoring rules
>>
>>201993
Agree with you. Went to boxing couple of times after some years in kyokushin. I had no any disctance management at all, literally can't move. Can't do anything with opponent who moves in boxing pendullum. Also some retards say it can be fixed easily if you just do some sparrings with head punches in kyokushin, like once per week. This is nonsense. If you allow punch heads with no prior drills you will just get a fighter who is afraid of getting punches in head, under stress he might turn his head from opponent, lean back, close eyes and etc. There is a reason why boxers spend so much time trying to achieve even such simple thing like having their eyes opened if they are in danger of being hit in the face. You can't have this just doing some sparrings with head punches here and there
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>>201993
You hit a WKF guy at 40% and he freezes in fear, also they aren't used to hit full force so his strikes don't cause shit.
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>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udDEOfdRjUY
Video is 14 years old but..Serious question: is the bald guy's training method legit, or sadistic\retarded bullshit? Is it legit with the caveat of "only for already tough people"?
He makes guys resist a double-pull thread in the neck while caning them, makes them fight each other with hard sticks until one's jaw breaks, beats them up bloody ,etc. The baldie is a special forces soldier it seems, so I assume all his students are army members. He even cuts himself a large wound just to stitch himself up with a surgery kit.
>also, if two people are pulling from OPPOSITE sides: doesn't that nullify the push-pull force and thus the choking- resistance feat is just showmanship? Wouldn't resisting a single guy doing a hangman-noose pull be much more awesome to resist against?
>>
>>202014
>>202020
can you (plural you) sum up the differences between Shotokan and K. karate sparring? I keep hearing mas oyama created the "hardest sparring" karate style, but it seems Shotokan and even Gojo-ryu is historically considered tougher and more painful\ "bloodthirsty" ?
>retarded question also: If K. guys can REALLY break ice blocks with kicks or break concrete bricks with punch, how come sparring doesn't end in dozens of broken bones per match?
>>
>>202048
Ok, I'll try, hope some others can add to what I write.
Shotokan karate is a synthesis of Okinawan styles, created by Funakoshi Gishin before the second world war. It has devolved in more point-like competitions, real shtokan sparring is still done but not so wide spread.
It has a longer range than Kyokushin.

Kyokushin was created after the war by Mas Oyama. It has a lot of emphasis on physical power and close range fight. Competition rules also drove the practice that wat, since they are full contact with no punches to the head.


Why does every sparring not end in injuries?
Even if guys are powerful, you oponent will block, move, evade you blows, landing a good blow is not easy.
In most places you will not spar 100% power unless it's with people at your level and/or you prepare for competition.

I hope I answered your question anon, remember that training is always the best way to acquire knowledge on fighting sports or martial arts, you have to sweat the skill to be able to use it.
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>>202046
>Video is 14 years old but..Serious question: is the bald guy's training method legit, or sadistic\retarded bullshit? Is it legit with the caveat of "only for already tough people"?
No, he is full of shit. I also was mentioning him on some previous threads. He is Andrey Kochergin, author Koi no Tokinobori ryu style. Was a famous person some time ago though, known because he cutted his leg and sewed up on camera. He also was beaten by a regular kyokushin guy Andrey Kurtiy (friend of Max Dedik) on the street when he tried to play tough guy and threaten him. He tried to train some kyokushin and muay thai or kickboxing competitors and they failed hard.
>The baldie is a special forces soldier
In Russia this is 100% mark of bullshit but Kochergin never was in special forces. May be you confused him with another bullshit russian martial artist - the notorious Sergey Badzyuk aka The Master of Sports of All Sports, who actually was in special forces
>>
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>>202020
>I'm tired of hearing about le based jka and le cringe wkf

JKA is still point sparring, but you don't get automatically disqualified if you heem somebody. WKF in the Olympics set karate's already poor reputation back even farther.

>Here's your gold medalist bro. No, it's not that guy on the right.



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