>>196917
Which ever one your more likely to stick with long term. Consistency matters more than anything else.

as someone that has never done muay thai and has been doing jiujitsu for years, I find myself way more impressed by the muay thai capabilities

jiujitsu is not very good, it's just a massive cope that some random asshole 30 years ago won some matches against some other random assholes (one of them by using a weapon) then for whatever reason that proves it's the ultimate martial art

>>196917
Listen to >>196927
Go try a class/week at each place and see what you like more. You will likely never get into a fight anyways

>>196917
>for self-defense on da streetz
get a knife and/or gun

>>196950
That's a non-answer, you're not allowed to resort to lethal force over fist fights

>>196917
If you're young muay thai, old bjj.

>>196963
You can learn kickboxing and boxing at any age really. Grappling is Hella worse for your spine etc

>>196955
>you're not allowed to resort to lethal force over fist fights
Depends entirely on the jurisdiction.

>>196975
>Grappling is Hella worse for your spine etc
There seem to be a fair number of old men doing judo.

>>196983
>There seem to be a fair number of old men doing judo
Personally, I feel that getting thrown is often the least painful part of grappling when your partner isn't a retard and you know how to break a fall. In contrast, getting the life squeezed out of me in bottom half guard or nay pin always leaves me feeling like someone took a sledgehammer to my chest and back afterwards, and I'm hardly a geezer at 21

>>196917
buy a gun
then train a striking and a grappling art
as well as start lifting

>>196917
Bulk up to 180lbs of muscle and start doing Muay Thai. After 6 months of training you'll be able to beat up 90% of random guys on the street. After a couple of years you'll be able to pretty much beat up anybody who has trained less than you and isn't a 6'4 linebacker in the NFL.

>>196917
>Muay Thai or BJJ
Do both. If the BJJ school has a good amount of nogi classes, like 3 a week, insist on only training nogi, because then you'll be forced to learn some wresting and won't learn any of the gay bad habits of gi jiu-jitsu.
So there you go, you'll know Muay Thai, some wrestling and jiu-jitsu. You're ready to pick a fight and get stabbed or fight back a thief and get shot.

>>198347
>insist on only training nogi, because then you'll be forced to learn some wresting and won't learn any of the gay bad habits of gi jiu-jitsu.
It's reasonable to focus on no-gi but refusing gi practice when there's no no-gi practice available is a missed opportunity. Going from wrestling to judo it was mildly frustrating learning to deal with all the extra grips people could get on me in the gi that I didn't have to worry about in a sport where you're not allowed to grab clothing. Unless you spend your days in a nudist colony there's something to be learned through gi grappling.

>>196917
MMA. If you can't find classes for that then don't bother with any of it and just get a gun.

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>>198347
>insist on only training nogi
>you'll know some wrestling
Learning no-gi is not the same as learning wrestling. Just because you know how to shoot a shitty single leg or double leg does not make you a wrestler.

>>197144
I think getting tossed on your head/neck is worse personally. Even with breakfalls getting thrown more than getting squished a bit.

>>198377
>30 year old software engineer hobbyist can't compare to some of the best athletes in the country after 10 years of elite athletic training
Woah. So where do I get the time machine to go back in time and start wrestling in middle school you dumb fuck?

Nogi is the only place I can train it. And it's including more and more wrestling.

>>198379
Fersure that fat fuck is totally one of the best athletes in the country.

>>196955
>you're not allowed to resort to lethal force over fist fights
>fist fights aren't lethal force
In what shithole is that the standard? People die in fist fights all the time.

Wing chun plus wrestling

>>198434
pretty standard stuff, theres 5 levels of force and the reasonableness will be weighed against you
1 asking/talking
2 commanding/yelling
3 unarmed fighting
4 less lethal weapons
5 lethal weapons

so someone shoving or hitting you is level 3, you can't just jump all the way to level 5
I've seen someone who got punched and knocked to the ground pull out a gun and shoot upwards at the guy as he was advancing towards him and he got convicted for shooting him

>>198461
Wing chun is a meme

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>>198379
>Nogi is the only place I can train it.
What are wrestling clubs, judo, sambo, etc. No-gi is fine for OP since you don't need much training to take down an untrained bum off the street, but acting like no-gi doesn't have its own gay habits is cope.

>And it's including more and more wrestling.
It's including more "wrestling for no-gi bjj". That's fine if you only do no-gi, but it's not the same as learning how to wrestle. There's a reason why elite BJJ guys who had great takedowns in sub-only competitions had much shittier takedown completion rate in MMA.

>>198352
You make good points on Judo, I'll concede that. My best training partner is a judoka himself and sends me flying to "the second floor", as they call it, on the regular. Nothing he does makes sense to me, that shit is pure jap witchery.
>Unless you spend your days in a nudist colony
It's Brazil in a place where we get like 2 weeks of winter, so...
Anyway, my point is in a self-defense situation you're not gonna pull off a de la riva or x guard, you'll want to:
1 - get out of there or
2 - clock them right in the chin to KO them or
3 - worst case scenario, grab them throw them onto concrete and put them out somehow
In that order. Again, Judo is great for that, as well as wrestling.
Maybe calling gi habits "gay" was a bit much, I'm just extremely biased towards nogi.
>>198377
>>198478
Emphasis on "some" in "some wrestling". You're not wrong, though.

>>198478
>wrestling clubs
Basically don't exist, completely inaccessible to adults in the US. I would have loved to learn it growing up but I couldn't so....
>judo, sambo
Not wrestling, and I'm not even allowed to use wrestling in judo....Sambo is built off Judo and not a pure grappling art. I might as well do MMA at that point. Also not super available either since I don't live in fucking Russia.

I like nogi because its constantly evolving and bringing in different techniques. Its not concerned with preserving Olympic sport rules or anything. Whatever you can use that works, it's valid. I'm interested in grappling as a whole, not some specific sport discipline.

>>198591
>Basically don't exist
https://masterswrestling.com/clubs/

>I'm not even allowed to use wrestling in judo
You know there's more to wrestling than just single legs and double legs right?

>Sambo is built off Judo and not a pure grappling art. I might as well do MMA at that point
How do people who are into grappling not know there are two different kinds of sambo? Sport sambo is pure grappling. Combat sambo is the one that involves strikes.

>Also not super available either since I don't live in fucking Russia.
Meme. Sambo isn't super widespread but there's way more of it around than people think.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?dg=feature&mid=1d3wEOsArc4iZiZoSFmZVXelvWN6HBWK6&ll=15.852559320882445%2C2.936670149999941&z=2

>I'm interested in grappling as a whole, not some specific sport discipline.
You say that, but you've dismissed multiple grappling styles in favor of a single specific sport discipline (no-gi).

>>198636
Compare that the amount of BJJ gyms and the comp scene. And also a lot of these map links are those MMA style training gyms with one or two wrestling classes a week. Or generic multi purpose grappling gyms. Which wrestlers/judofags tend to shit on...

>You know there's more to wrestling than just single legs and double legs right?
Please go to a judo open mat/comp and start doing wrestling and record it.

Yes, a discipline with less rules than the ones you are wanking in which I can use most techniques from those other arts...

I feel like you think I'm shitting on these arts, I'm not. To me grappling is grappling. I'm going to pick the least limited style that is convenient for me to train.

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>>198640
>Or generic multi purpose grappling gyms. Which wrestlers/judofags tend to shit on
Nobody brought that up, but sure get mad about it.

>discipline with less rules than the ones you are wanking in which I can use most techniques from those other arts
Martial arts are more than just the sum of its techniques. The strategies/framework in which the techniques are developed from are driven by a specific context. You can do a high crotch or uchimata in no-gi, but all you're doing is a high crotch or uchimata in a submission grappling context with no clothing to grab.

>To me grappling is grappling
It clearly is not despite what you've convinced yourself.

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>>198640
>Or generic multi purpose grappling gyms. Which wrestlers/judofags tend to shit on...
Having spent years in both wrestling and judo my impression has been that grapplers like to try other grappling styles when given the opportunity.
>Please go to a judo open mat/comp and start doing wrestling and record it.
Uta Abe did a sick headlock takedown to win a women's 52 kg match at the 2023 World Judo Championships, WebM related.

>>196917
you should spend a lot of time thinking this through. You always want to escape (not fight). See it coming and avoid it. Don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you must fight you fight to kill so you can win and not be killed. If you want to fight for sport join a gym and start sparring. Street fights are stupid. Watch the video of the Apple River fight/stabbing. Kids ganged up on old guy, punched him, pushed him, they were getting stabbed and did not eve know it. Stabber got convicted and is going to prison. So much for self defense. Carry small pepper spray, and knife. Learn when and how to use both. Randos attacking may be seriously mentally ill or drugged out, or both, or just hardened killers. You never know. Watch lots of vids about street fights and see how many people get sucker punched, stabbed, shot, get their head stomped, get dame brammage from banging their head on the concrete when they fall. A gun is good if you can carry one. Don't get too close, guns are distance tools. If you need to knife someone you have to get close, what if they have a knife too? Where do you stab, slash? The last thing you want to be fighting anyone anywhere in the street. The longer it goes on the worse for you. Spray, slash and run. Muay Thai will teach you elbows and spinning back elbows and fists which can be brutal. Best to just duck out and go home than fight.

>>197144
Disagree. I've gotten way more injured in bjj than muay thai. Our gym does takedown incorporated into bjj and ultimately there is no real mitigation. You can break your fall, but 100kg hitting the ground is 100kg hitting the ground.

I'll tske get punched in the face all day. If your training partner isn't a dick you'll be fine. Gravity is always a dick.

Bjj/Judo is more for the young IMO. Muay thai has been more kind to me.

>>196917
Any decent Martial Arts, the ones you mentioned are good. What you have is an strategic disadvantage, but you can overcome that with tactical and technical proficiency.

Being shorter is only a disadvantage from a surface level, I would argue there are about the same number of advantages and disadvantages of being taller, you just need to look a bit more into the stuff you are learning, since it's more likely that the people you are practicing and learning martial arts from are closer to average height than you.

>>196917
You should absolutely get a gun and carry it because no martial art is going to protect you on the streets when others have weapons and you don't. BJJ is the best complement to this.

>>196946
traditional jiujitsu is not good, and bjj hasn't been the ultimate martial art since UFC 4

>>197309
>After 6 months of training you'll be able to beat up 90% of random guys on the street.
bro get real. a random shot from a big guy can KO anyone and you are not going to be even remotely decent in 6 months

>>202164
Might even be a little worse if it's at odds with your previous tendencies.

>>202128
>laying down is the best complement to this
I'd argue for judo: better grip fighting to get to your gun and keep the other guy away from your gun while standing, better focus on staying on your feet, enough familiarity with groundfighting to make space to draw and shoot, protects you from getting hurt from falling which is a more likely event than a self-defense shooting.

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>>196917
It's not even a question. Muay Thai all the way.
BJJ is a complementary martial art that might or might not be useful one day but in reality I've never used it. Streetfighting, self defence or whatever you want to call it is mostly punches. Hell I haven't even used much kicks.

>>202164
>>202165
What's the point in learning how to fight if a big guy can one shot you?

>>202331
Why gun if tank
Why tank if plane
Why plane if missile

>>202331
the better you get the less likely it is to happen. 6 months is not enough time for someone to learn anything but extreme basics and still suck though

>>196983
>There seem to be a fair number of people doing Judo
They're actually only in their early twenties; Judo and having the maddest parties of any sport fucked them up.

>>196950
>Gun trannies are too gay and lazy to train their bodies ontop of everything else

>>196917
BJJ. Grappling training is much larger force multiplier against untrained. people have zero inherit grappling fighting skill, whatever they do instinctively is just plain wrong. When instinctively swinging hands is closer to proper striking

Striking martial arts need weight and strength behind strikes more, there is threshold when weak strikes simply don't knock people out.
Also grappling laows for better force escalation. Instead of going straight to punching people into face that may be socially and legally bad you can shove people out your way or put them into standing submission hold that doesn't look very aggravating and more social acceptable.

>>205378
>Striking martial arts need weight and strength behind strikes more, there is threshold when weak strikes simply don't knock people out.

Isn’t that what training is for? To get stronger and better at striking? I could also say that size is more important in BJJ than striking. If some goon on da streez outweighed me with 50 pounds of muscle there’s no way in hell I’d want to grapple with him, even if he is untrained. A smaller guy has a boxer’s chance of winning at the very least.

>>205416
The reality is my brown tomboy muscle girl short stack gf no matter the level of training could ever hurt me with strikes, because mass is part of the equation when it comes to potential force output
Her only option would to be getting on my back like a little monkey and choking me because even a child could pinch arteries shut

And another thing too, grapplers like to suggest it's some kind of methodological reason it's superior but it's really just that one anatomic quirk they take advantage of
If the neck arteries weren't right next to the surface and able to be pinched shut then grappling is just as useless too

>>205435
I guess I should just accept that unarmed fighting is futile for someone as small as me (176 cm).

>>205445
Being short =/= small
A bulky manlet is still stronger than dyel regular
Buy a kettlebell

>>205378
>>205435
>Striking martial arts need weight and strength behind strikes more, there is threshold when weak strikes simply don't knock people out.
>because mass is part of the equation when it comes to potential force output
Striking is still an essential skill to learn even if you're a smaller person. While weight classes exist for a good reason, you can't reduce striking down to solely as force = mass x acceleration. Not to mention that striking isn't all offense, but teaches defense as well.

>>205435
The guy you’re talking to is a 5’9” male, not a 5’3” woman. Do you really think that a rear naked choke is the only option he has if he’s trained and conditioned?

>>196917
Buy a gun

>>196917
Either one is great, especially if you become proficient in both

>>205560
He seems to think so

>>202162
it becomes completely useless when someone has an actual deadly weapon like a knife or a gun

>>205435
>i will never get hurt in a real fight
>the monkey person cant choke me


>gets shot

>>205969
I'm a faster draw than whatever nig is getting uppity, and if he's close enough to go hands on all he did was hand me a gun

>>205979
you're so retardedly delusional
keep speaking
it's interesting

>>196917
>>206302
MMA

>>196917
Muay thai or boxing if you're athletic and like hurting people. Wrestling (not that you could find it) if you're athletic and don't like hurting people. BJJ if you're not athletic and don't like hurting people. Judo if you're not athletic but like hurting people.

>>206316
Pretty accurate.

>>206316
Wrestling hurts people

>>206316
>Wrestling (not that you could find it) if you're athletic and don't like hurting people
Pain compliance techniques are a huge part of wrestling. Once you get used to it they stop working on you but against a beginner or even intermediate wrestler you can definitely score some points that way, e.g. getting the takedown because your crossface was a little extra grindy and the guy you sprawled on didn't have the pain tolerance and neck strength to ignore it.

>>206316
>>206405
>Judo if you're not athletic but like hurting people.
Comparatively, judo is very polite. I do agree that wrestling requires higher athleticism than judo, but if you're athletic you're going to have an easier time of doing more interesting judo for longer versus if you're not athletic.
>BJJ if you're not athletic and don't like hurting people.
The BJJ gyms I've been to have had a higher portion of wrestler-mentality guys in regards to inflicting pain versus the judo dojos I've attended. My only actual injuries in grappling have been from wrestling and BJJ despite having done far more judo that BJJ (and more wrestling than judo).

>>206405
I said wrestling for not hurting people because there are a lot of techniques that can put someone on their back without slamming them. Judo is a lot of flipping people and using momentum, and that'll definitely hurt on pavement/concrete

>>196917
I know you don't want to hear it but doing just one martial art isn't really going to make you a well rounded fighter. Personally, I was a muay Thai fighter and feel very confident with it but I'm helpless in a floor grapple. Do both consistently and you'll be much more confident. If I have to pick one, start with muay thai and DO NOT skip on the clinch training. It's so important and so often skipped out on. With a confident clinch technique you are much less likely to go to ground so you can mabey hope to skip grappling.

>>202325
Isn't boxing better if you barely used kicks?

>>196917
>>196917
BJJ here. 250lb powerlifter prior. Fighting should be avoided at almost any scenario and a gun will do for the rest. Do Muay Thai? Get tackled and get kicked in the head while on the ground. Do BJJ? Skip to the second part of the prior outcome.

>>196917
Literally mma or sambo and most importantly: learn how to close distance with footwork

>>207217
you're opinion doesnt matter because you lift weights
sorry
im just using bjj logic

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>>205867
I’m a fucking insecure autist so even if I know in my head that a 5’9” dude can be good at BJJ if they put the time in and work out, one anonymous retard on 4chan can say “only one BJJ move will work on me if you’re 5’9” because a 5’9” man is basically a 5’1” girl” and my ego would crumble as I cancel my BJJ classes IRL. I can watch hundreds of videos of short BJJ dudes taking on bigger untrained guys in da streetz but without 100% validation from strangers online I want to give up

>>208062
Stop being so pathetic. 5'9" isn't short and it certainly isn't something you should have a complex over.

>>208062
Seems like a you thing, not a BJJ thing

Go do some BJJ and it will make you reassess a bit. You'll get ragdolled by smaller guys you reckon you could have taken the street

Is it le ultimate martial art? No, none of them are. They're all just components of modern MMA that will teach you to fight a certain way, if you can get to clinch range with your opponent then BJJ is highly effective. But getting there is the trick.

Similarly if you only know boxing but the other guy takes you down, you could be fucked

>>196917
judo
everyone wants to fuck with you until you panic
fuck up the seoi nage, injure, possibly dislocate their shoulder


and then slam them onto concrete