After Nagatoro's went out on a whimper earlier this week, I went and watched Giji Harem on the recommendation of an anon on here. I enjoyed it so much I went and read the entire manga in a day, and found it to be superior to Nagatoro despite having a similar starting premise (gimmicky romcom).This got me thinking about what makes one of these stories fail vs. succeed, and here's what I ended up with:>Strength of main charactersNagatoro's primary charm was the titular character herself. She had flaws, she made mistakes, but she was also cute, passionate, and ultimately very likeable. The story's weakness falls then on senpai, who started off as a weird, shy, awkward loser and slowly develops confidence as the series goes on. The problem with this is that 'confidence' as shown in Nagatoro is making odd declarative statements and monologues to a surprised audience. This starts around ch. 27, and never really goes away.Senpai never once in the story feels or sounds like a regular person, and this character weakness begins getting extremely grating once we hit the later chapters of the story.Giji Harem, on the other hand, has two instantly likeable protagonists. Rin is cute, willing to indulge despite embarrassment, is immature, a little dumb, but very charming and positive. She feels like a normal, real person.Similarly, Ieji is talkative, outgoing, friendly, funny, capable, but also goofy, immature, dense, and bad with women. He feels like someone you could meet in real life rather than a character in a work of fiction, is capable of having normal conversations, and you can see why people would want to be around him. The strength of his character is why the romance feels strong and fresh throughout the entirety of the series' run without the need to resort to introducing a large roster of side characters.>cont.
>>269151370>Relationship developmentOne of the primary strengths of Nagatoro, at least initially, was the development of the romance between Nagatoro and Senpai. The relationship between the two starts off as primarily antagonistic, with Naga playing cruel jokes on senpai in almost every chapter. As the series goes on, Naga recognizes senpai's passion for art, a trait she finds extremely endearing, and senpai realizes that Nagatoro acts as a muse to him, providing him with fresh zeal for his stagnating passion. This acts as a catalyst for the relationship between the two, with senpai recognizing his social faults and working to do better and Nagatoro recognizing that her admiration for his passion needs to be reflected in her own life.The strength of the relationship is that you are shown WHY the characters begin developing feelings for one another despite the rocky start to the relationship. Naga doesn't just like senpai because 'he's nice to me', she starts liking him because he has traits that she is shown to appreciate early on in the manga.The problem is that the relationship development begins to stagnate just after their first date at the aquarium. Whether through editor interference or Nanashi's own incompetence, the main driving force of the story begins spinning its wheels at around chapter 93, and doesn't stop for another 30-40 chapters.Giji Harem, on the other hand, gets off to a much quicker start. Rin is already deeply infatuated with Ieji, for reasons that are never quite made clear. They are also already quite close, to the point that they seem to spend time alone with each other every day. This deprives the viewer of the satisfation of seeing the relationship start and grow.>cont.
>>269152101Giji makes up for it by creating an intensely comfortable atmosphere between the characters where they can talk and interact in a very natural way that demonstrates why they would grow to like each other. They're able to make each other laugh, flirt constantly, and slowly over time insert more and more into each other's lives by meeting their families and spending more time together outside of the normal school setting.One of Nagatoro's major flaws is that the interactions between senpai and Naga outside of the teasing never feel natural or real. They aren't really shown having normal conversations about the boring day-to-day life stuff that makes up a large majority of what actual people talk about. Outside of being an object of amusement for Naga, senpai doesn't really seem to 'get her'.This is demonstrated in one of my favorite chapters in Giji where Rin is practicing how to cry for acting purposes and Ieji initially believes her. She goes into character, but then wonders as her normal self how he would handle it if she were crying for real. He makes a funny face, which makes her laugh, although she protests that she's not so immature that a simple funny face would work. He pulls another face, and she laughs even harder.This demonstrates that 1. he knows her well despite the cool, mature front she puts up and 2. he can cheer her up and 3. he knows how to make her laugh and enjoys doing it.This simple interaction tells us a lot about the characters and their relationship. I can't think of a similar interaction occurring in Nagatoro
giji harem is bad because theres no plot happening whatsoever and its just the self insert telling his "she's totally not my gf" gf to use some new personality to act cute when some minor inconvenience happensRin is a great girl, super cute, but there is no substance whatsoever to the show`
based.
>>269152581>Reliance on side charactersOne of the big draws of Nagatoro is its roster of side characters. Gamou, Yoshi, Slut, president, Sunomiya, Shikki, Naga's brother and sister, among others play a large part in the story, either providing gag material or helping the main characters decide what to do next. These characters are, for the most part, a fun addition to the story and are often the best part of the chapters they participate in.The problem comes down to the fact that the side characters are used as a crutch because the relationship between the two main characters is not interesting enough by itself to keep the story aloft. Rather than simply adding flavor, the side characters are often used as plot elements and receive undue attention given how limited their characterization is. While fun, they present a problem in that they add to the feeling of 'wheel spinning' that becomes more and more prevalent as the series goes on, and the addition of even more side characters late into the story significantly exacerbates this problem.Giji's cast, on the other hand, is extremely limited. 95% of the manga features only our two protagonists. 3 other members of the drama club, Rin's sister, and Rin's friend are the only characters who are featured in more than one chapter of the manga. While this limits the amount of 'flavor' available in the material, it also shows just how strong the characterization is for our two protagonists. They are able to essentially carry 130 chapters of material entirely on the strength of their dialogue, actions, and interactions.
>>269151370>nagatoro and giving harem have a similar premisewat
>>269153184Did you read the manga?>>269153247Similar in that they are both romcoms with a particular gimmick that differentiates them from other selections in the genre.
>>269153287no, Im already reading too many atm
>>269153211>One of the big draws of Nagatoro is its roster of side charactersmore like the opposite. Only yoshi and gamo are any good. The manga died when sunomiya got introduced
>>269153313It's a short read, but it ramps up as the story goes on so that the relationship that develops between the characters feels very natural and satisfying.>>269153336Maybe, but looking at the naga threads it seems like the side characters became the most popular aspect of the manga. Probably due to the other factors i'm talking about
>>269153211>Reliance on the gimmickThis is an aspect of the story that both series get mostly right. In Nagatoro, the gimmick is that Naga constantly fucks with and teases senpai at varying levels of intensity. In Giji, the gimmick is that Rin plays a variety of characters to play into Ieji's stated desire to 'have a harem'.Because a gimmick can only hold your attention and drive a story for so long, both series begin reeling it in at around the halfway point. Rin no longer plays her characters in every chapter, and teasing stops being the primary focus of Nagatoro once the characters begin developing their interests outside of the art clubroom. The difference to me is that Nagatoro's teasing is the only time where the characters seem to interact naturally and normally, so the teasing aspect never quite loses its importance, whereas Ieji begins losing interest in the characters Rin plays in favor of Rin herself.
nigger
>>269151370>>269153863>ConclusionIn some respects it's not really fair to compare the two series because their formats are so different. Nagatoro needed to fill up 10-24 pages of material, whereas Giji stuck to a 4-5 page chapter structure. Nagatoro's length exposed the weakness of the series' foundation, which made its flaws more apparent and likely caused Nanashi to rely on cliches and other devices to muddle through once the premise ran out of steam.Ultimately, though, Nagatoro's strength came from its titular character, and one character simply isn't enough to hold up a 130+ chapter romcom. Senpai's weakness in characterization, the inability of the two characters to hold normal conversations and interact naturally all lead to a drop in quality as Nanashi scrambled to find a reason for the manga to continue to exist past the first date when senpai and Naga recognized their feelings for one another.Nagatoro simply ran too long, and the available material didn't have the legs to give the series a strong finish.Giji also suffered from a so-so ending, with last minute drama being shoved in to give the series a somewhat bittersweet goodbye that didn't sit all that well with me. Unlike Nagatoro, though, the series didn't stick around well past its sell-by date, meaning that the audience cared and loved its characters even as their story met an awkward end. They simply had the meat they needed to remain interesting and endearing the entire way through the series' run, and their interactions never lost their initial appeal even as the characters and the circumstances around them changed.
>>269154182I don't care if you read it or not I write things for a living so I'm trying to process and analyze what worked and didn't work in each series so I can apply it to my own work.I'm posting it here in case other people have alternative thought processes and might want to talk about it.
Very good posts. Literally too good for /a/.
>>269154435Based
>seven yearsshe totally fucked other dudes
>>269155054I'm pretty sure they were still dating the whole time but the wording of the translation makes it difficult to tell.
>>269154346Interesting thoughts. I've written fairly long texts about the manga I've read so it's fun to read others doing the same. I've never read Giji Harem but your assessment of Nagatoro's weaknesses is accurate. It's a shame because if it was a bit more compact of a story, it could've ended a lot more cleanly. My main disappointment with dragged-out endings still remains Kaguya. Aka had MULTIPLE good ending points where he could stop, but continued (or was forced to continue) the manga until it became a shell of the earlier chapters. There was also clearly a layer of author burnout, there were a lot of setups that simply went nowhere. Probably more, and better, was planned than what was eventually showed to readers.Depending on who you ask, if you stop just before or after Ice arc, I'd argue Kaguya is one of the best romcoms out there. Everything else after that just spoils your enjoyment of the story.You mention Giji Harem also has a lackluster ending. Do you still feel it's worth reading despite that?
Nagatoro should have ended at around the onsen. when they kept doing these stupid promises is when you knew the author lost it. It was already clear after their first date that they both like each other and there was no reason to extend the manga so much.
>>269155315>You mention Giji Harem also has a lackluster ending. Do you still feel it's worth reading despite that?Absolutely. It's a short read, you can probably finish in about 3-4 hours or so due to the shorter format. At this point it's probably in my top 3 favorite romcoms. The awkward ending only takes up like 4 chapters, and even then the interactions between the characters are charming and enjoyable. The epilogue is pretty standard, although as >>269155054>>269155254these posts might indicate, it leaves some questions unanswered.>My main disappointment with dragged-out endings still remains Kaguya.I've heard this multiple times and that combined with the bizarre turns Aka's other work ONK has taken over the last few months has prevented me from reading it. I may take your advice and read up until a certain point and then just skip to the epilogue.>or was forced to continueI think this plays a much bigger part in serialized romcoms that run out of steam than most people realize. Aka even commented on it in ONK (picrel). It's very likely that this is what caused the issues in Nagatoro, as>>269155533points out.
>>269151370Near as I can tell, these days it all boils down to which one has shitty panels you can post out of context to get the most SMS likes.
It's funny how /a/ tried to make a cult out of an mainstream sell-out adaptation based on a couple of doujin sets. It was obvious that the series had zero planning and started using all the shitty cliches to artificially extend the serialization. Personally I dropped it quite early with zero regrets and laughed at anons being obsessed with the "relationship development" (new arcs with new random side characters) for years. I'm all up for romcoms with the main couple being obvious and getting together even at the very beginning (I don't even bother reading anything that smells like a harem), but to make it work as a series it needs more than a cheap gimmick and generic development.
>>269156349Nagatoro was pretty good up until a certain point. I used the aquarium date as the cutoff point, but it probably started a little bit before that.Nagatoro herself was great up until the end of the manga, what it was really lacking was an even somewhat charismatic co-lead. Senpai had his moments but became a major weight around the series' neck after the skii trip arc.
>>269155736>AbsolutelyThanks, I'll read it. It's always fun to read a quality romance>I may take your advice and read up until a certain point and then just skip to the epilogue.You can do so if you wish, but it could also be interesting to go through the whole thing and see how rough it gets. If you want to stop, I'd argue stop after "Ice" arc. I can look up the last chapter of that arc in a moment.>the bizarre turns Aka's other work ONK has taken over the last few monthsI don't read it, but I'm not surprised. Based on his earliest work Aka really seems to love drama. It's a bit of a tough situation because it seems his skills and his passion are in the opposite ends. The best part of Kaguya, at least to me, is the lighthearted romcom stuff.> It's very likely that this is what caused the issues in NagatoroTo be fair, it feels like an universal issue in serialized manga. The author can never know if their manga gets cut short or kept alive for an unnaturally long time. As an example, Dimension W goes at an even pace until the final volume, when the final plot points get ran through very fast. If the author had just one more volume (as seems he was supposed to) the ending would've been so much smoother, and the manga better as a whole.
>>269155736The last chapter of Kaguya's Ice arc is 151. It's a good place to stop, but I'd still recommend just reading until it gets too painful
>>269157079Man I don't want to read until it's painful, I've read way too many series that have had lackluster or straight up bad endings at this point. I need something with an ending that's legitimately good and satisfying, which is unfortunately a rare thing to find these days.
>>269157881Then read until chapter 151, I can assure you the manga is enjoyable to that point
>>269151370>The problem with this is that 'confidence' as shown in Nagatoro is making odd declarative statements and monologues to a surprised audience. This starts around ch. 27, and never really goes away.It works well for a while, but diminishing returns and lack of variety sets in pretty hard in the triple-digit chapters. The same "big entrances" and "big declarations" over and over.>Whether through editor interference or Nanashi's own incompetence, the main driving force of the story begins spinning its wheels at around chapter 93, and doesn't stop for another 30-40 chapters.I'd put the mark right after Kyoto and say it doesn't end period. And I'd strongly argue it's Nanashi being incompetent; he lost the plot in that clusterfuck mega-arc.>One of Nagatoro's major flaws is that the interactions between senpai and Naga outside of the teasing never feel natural or real. They aren't really shown having normal conversations about the boring day-to-day life stuff that makes up a large majority of what actual people talk about.This is just completely wrong. Most of the first 2/3 of the series is this kind of stuff, man, what are you talking about?>the side characters are used as a crutchI would argue that this is a problem of readers' unreasonable expectations going against the author's intent, aka the "progressfag problem." So many people act like a series with ANY romantic angle cannot do fun slice-of-life stuff because then it's just a "wasted chapter" where "nothing happens."Haven't read Giji, I'll check it out.
recommend me some good non harem rom coms please...
>>269159269Giji harem
>>269159269Pseudo harem
>>269159319already completed it
>>269159375>Nagatoro>Anjou-san>Smoking behind the supermarket with you>starting today we are childhood friendsPersonally I wanna begin that about the gyaru who wants to lose some weight
>>269159451Ah also>you and I are the polar opposites
>>269159451>gyaru who wants to lose some weightname?
>>269159451You mean How Heavy Are the Dumbbells You Lift? It's extremely repetitive; pick a chapter at random and read it, and you've now read 95% of what the series does.Smoking is really enjoyable, good rec.
>>269159269Bokuyaba, even the current dating period is good and they can behave like a normal couple.
>>269159805I think dumbbell gyaru can't really be classified as normal manga, it's more like some cooking manga which are 50% story and 50% recipe book.
>>269159451check out "Houkago Kitaku Biyori" as wellits so good if u wanna start something
>>269154346Technically Nagatoro hasn't finished, we've got a conclusion chapter next month (August) in the volume release.
>>269154435>t.
>>269151370Nagagtoro Is Better than that shit
>>269159269we had a good romcom council thread recently so check it out for reccs >>269085230
>>269160608cope
>>269160608lol
>>269159269Smoking behind the supermarket with you. It's legitimately really good, comfy atmosphere, and a throwback artstyle that reminds of the 90's in a very good way.I was reading Anjou-san but I became so repulsed at the male protagonist that I've pretty much dropped it.I'm still reading Sono Bisque Doll despite the author turning the story into a weird, schitzophrenic mix of melodrama and overly autistic examinations of the hobby R15+ Ja Dame Desuka? has great potential to be goodKusunoki-san wa Koukou Debut ni Shippai shite Iru has potential to be good although there may be some harem elements beginning to sneak inArakure Ojousama wa Monmon Shiteiru is very entertainingBoku no Suki na Hito ga Suki na Hito is okay, minor harem elements might be emerging but it's difficult to tellSuki na Ko ga Megane wo Wasureta was great, it just ended last month thoughUzaki is still happening but I'm pretty sure the mangaka has almost died multiple times so it keeps going on pause.Boku no Kokoro is still going strong.
>>269160608I'm going to laugh if bad end fanfic with senpai and nagatoro being stuck in a horrific abusive relationship ends up cannon.>>269159068>This is just completely wrong. Most of the first 2/3 of the series is this kind of stuff, man, what are you talking about?Let me explain in a different way.There is some mundane dialogue, but there isn't a lot of it and for the most part it turns into Nagatoro playing some sort of game with senpai. There's charm in that, but they don't really have many normal conversations, though you do know they do that because there's a lot of one-panel shots of them walking and talking and smiling. We just don't get to hear or really see it.More than that, it's almost always one-sided in that we rarely see senpai trying to joke around with Naga, purposefully trying to make her laugh, etc.
>>269153454>looking at the naga threads it seems like the side characters became the most popular aspect of the manga.mainly because of schizos trying to keep threads alive with side ships and alternate timeline shit since the main couple has already been discussed to death.
>>269161196Well, that's the issue we're discussing, right? Side characters used as a crutch because the primary driver of the story has lost steam.
>>269151370I think the primary lessons I've come away with from this is how important it is not to drag your romance out and ensuring that both leads are at least somewhat interesting rather than leaning too heavily on the star power of the female lead.Nagatoro is a good example of why you need to have a get in-get out mindset when creating your romance story. The series is strong as the relationship starts and blossoms into a romance, then fizzles out as soon as artificial and contrived roadblocks are put up.Anjou-san is a good example of a romcom with a horribly uneven main couple. Anjou is interesting, dynamic, and charming, but the main guy is such a wet blanket nothing character that you begin to legitimately despise him at a certain point in the story.
>>269155054she's ready to settle down now.
>>269159269Jitsu Wa Watashi Wa is a pretty interesting romcom where it's not just the MC and two, three or even four romantic interest but a whole cast of characters either from the start or as the series goes on being developed on their own complete characters, the MC friend going after their teacher was legitly something i've never seen in another manga since then. It starts weak and the anime sucks, but when it picks up it really picks up until the end.Tonikaku Kawaii i'm mixed to say because until the "end" it's pretty comfy, kinda mature and jokes a lot with romcom cliché like the aquarium date chapter and has a interesting spin on the Kaguya/tale of the bamboo cutter, but after the "end" it really gets stale, most of the fun side characters are irrelevant and it focus more on a "non-romcom" story.And Call of the Night...? I mean, it's a fun ride and the author really gets the "night life" vibe but Yofukashi no Uta manga ending is something i don't understand that well if they get reunited, if Kou is going to chase Nazuna forever or if he being a "special vampire" means something else is going to happen to their fate.
>>269151370I don't understand the appeal of these shows
>>269165104It's cute, the girls are idealized women in the abstract, it's fun to watch a relationship develop because you remember/recognize/connect with the intensity of the feelings involved, and it can be funny.
