>MC gets molested by childhood friend and ends up forgiving him for it>said childhood friend also basically tells her “a woman can never be a man”They’re totally going to cut this scene from the upcoming remake, aren’t they?
>>271192897Yeh
it's an incredibly outdated manga desu. Im pretty sure ryoko now does seminars with the ldp party lmao
>>271193802>one of the most influential and highly acclaimed manga/anime of all time, to the point where its influence is still felt to this day>outdatedIf it hasn’t stopped being revelant for the past 50 years, then I don’t think it’ll ever stop being relevant.
>>271192897Thats literally one of the most well known scenes in the manga, fujos were all over it even before that was a term. The doujin term Lemon comes from the name of the episode too(Blue Lemon).
>>271194743True, but despite the scene’s iconic nature, I get the feeling that they’ll be scared to replicate it to appease “modern audiences”.Plus, since the remake is going to be a movie instead of a TV series like the original anime, they’ll have to cut alot of stuff in order to condense it, which makes this scene even more primed for the chopping block.
>>271192897I honestly felt like Andre's assault was a bit out of character for himThat being said, it is funny people call this anime a "yuri" when she ends up with a man well, they both get shot and die and it honestly feels more like a heterosexual yaoi but with the woman in the more masculine role lmao
>>271195166oscar and rosaline relationship was very disliked by fans afaik and was dropped by the author but you are right on andre and oscar, they look more like characters from at the time BL (even if BL/yaoi didn't exist at the time as classification). Especially because andre's design change towards the end of the story making him look more "feminine" than oscar.
>>271195383Yeah maybe you're right, but it's just that I tell yuri fans Rose of Versailles isn't a yuri because I know they're going to be sorely disappointed when her love interest isn't Rosalie or Marie Antionette but Andre
>>271195166>well, they both get shot and dieThat was the best part, I couldnt bear the thought of Oscar having another man.
>>271195383sorry, i had to correct the thing about oscar and rosalie. it was more about readers disliking rosaline as a character than the actual ship, ryoko dropped the thing with oscar rejecting rosalie affection.anyway, the scene with oscar and andre is the anime is more dramatic while in the manga oscar is scared but its understandable since its her first time
>>271195383>>271195695Oscar and Rosalie are cute together and they have a lot of chemistry, but Oscar and Andre is the more appropriate pairing from a thematic perspective. I guarantee that Oscar would have taken Rosalie as a mistress/“wife” if it wasn’t for her being coerced into moving out of the Jarjayes Estate, and if it wasn’t for Andre’s assault making Oscar realise her repressed feelings.
>>271195695ryoko plays with the main cast well with that (even if i think she did a better job with orpheus, when it's about love triangles/complicated relationships) because there is also count fersen that at first is both oscar and marie antoinette love interest.
>>271195897That sounds more your unhinged headcanon than what's showed in the story.
>>271195166Boundaries were broken in the 70's but while cannibalism might be okay in a mainstream manga faggotry wasn't allowed. It was probably some editor who prevented them from having a full blown gay relationship.
>>271196259class-s was a thing in shoujo so no one was actually gay but just girls being pals
Is it me or the manga has a rape -or basically rape- scene? It's been really a while since I visited the details of this series.
>>271196158In the manga, Oscar admits that she’d marry Rosalie if she was male. Oscar is very obviously bisexual. She obviously prefers men overall, but she’s not averse to flirting and being coupled with women.>>271196259Outright gayness was allowed under certain circumstances. Shiroi Heya no Futari predates RoV, and it has a full blown lesbian romance. Ikeda herself also followed up RoV with Oniisama e, which was even more overtly gay. Plus, Ikeda also wrote Claudine, which was literally about a FtM tranny and was promoting trans rights as its central theme.
>>271195773>t. AndreStill, based and "I'd rather die than be without you" pilled>>271195897I really don't know much of Ryoko's stuff because it seems hard to find English versionsEven Rose of Versailles wasn't easy to find>>271196091I never really got that she was into Fersen but I may be dumb>>271196259Didn't the same author make actual yuri though?
Among female creators in Japan from the Taisho to the Showa era, there was a significant fascination with aesthetic lesbian fantasy. This sentiment can be seen sprinkled throughout Taisho-era girls' magazines and Showa-era shoujo manga.
WTH Jacques Demy made the movie Versailles, is it any good?
>>271196678You're forgetting theatre troupes like Takarazuka and Shochiku with the fans being seriously in love with the otokojaku, nip women have been lesbos for a long time. Hell even the og kabuki was originally a women only troupe. P hot if you ask me.
>>271196678>ywn be a cute Japanese dyke in the 20s-70s in a passionate affair with a masculine Japanese womanEnd it.>>271196795It butchers the source material REALLY badly by completely missing the point of the series and also making Oscar much more timid and feminine. The film has good actors who were just poorly casted and given a bad script.I heard a story about the movie’s creation where Ikeda actually gave Demy a copy of the manga to read for reference, but he somehow ended up losing the copy, so he just decided to wing it.
>>271196915To be fair, it is said that all women are bisexual and that there are no completely straight women. According to a study conducted at an American university, where the salivation of male and female subjects was measured in response to seeing naked men and women, male subjects showed a reaction only to naked women and felt nothing in response to naked men. In contrast, female subjects reacted to both naked men and women.
>>271195383>Especially because andre's design change towards the end of the story making him look more "feminine" than oscar.You guys are legit schizos
>>271197205I think that argument can be made for men also. A lot of men would fuck another man if said man was feminine enough.
>>271197574>another porn addict take of “bisexual men don’t exist and all women are bisexual” >the source is stats from a actual porn site
>>271197637I believe it is true that there is a difference between men and women in the discomfort index when viewing naked members of the same sex. One piece of evidence supporting this is the fact that many female manga artists create works for a male audience, while the reverse is extremely rare. This is not unusual; the human brain is designed to positively perceive the female body regardless of gender, and infants instinctively seek out their mother's breast. And I am not claiming that bisexual men do not exist.
>>271197205*laugh in latin* I sincerely doubt men who weren't raised in a society where homosexuality is a taboo would have zero reaction. We're all easily aroused monkeys deep down, but most people basically raise boys not to be faggots since infancy. We teach boys to be disgusted by homos and feminine behavior (that's why being a homo brings such drama in the first place. Because you have to deconstruct and breathe through thousands of years of carefully built up disgust, unspoken rules, constructs, prejudice, repressed feelings, scripture taboo, and even pressure to have sex solely to make children just to have some satisfying sex and romance in your shitty life) so of course there's gonna be less reaction than the group of people we never cared to groom into heterosexuals as much.
>>271196581>I never really got that she was into Fersen but I may be dumbOscar’s attraction to Fersen is a bit complicated from a psychological perspective, which is probably why it confuses some people.Basically, Oscar envies Antoinette because Antoinette is carefree and always follows her heart and emotions, whereas Oscar often represses her emotions because of the pressure she feels to be masculine. Since Antoinette is in love with Fersen and does a terrible job of hiding that fact, Oscar sees Fersen as a symbol of the very kind of openness and freedom that she lacks. Basically, she was never in love with Fersen— She was just in love with the idea of being in love with Fersen.
>>271196581>Oscar falls in love with Hans Axel von Fersen, a Swedish count. But Fersen has eyes for the queen only, and treats Oscar like a friend without knowing her true feelings for him.>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Rose_of_Versailles_characters#Oscar_Fran%C3%A7ois_de_Jarjayes
>>271196544Faggotry was allowed as long as it was punished at the end
>>271198390>Basically, she was never in love with Fersen— She was just in love with the idea of being in love with FersenLOL
>>271198632
>>271198670
Are there any manga series that deal with Marie Antoinette's alleged lesbianism?
>>271198791Other than the fact that RoV touches on those rumours briefly, I think Innocent Rouge has some element of that IIRC.
>>271198632>she was never in love with Fersen— She was just in love with the idea of being in love with FersenHaving actually dealt with a friend who was exactly like this it was absolutely soul crushing.
>>271198703forgot this lol
>>271198855Rose Bertin also brought it up.
>>271198886I don't understand this. Oscar falling in love with Fersen wasn't subtext at all.
>>271197982I call bullshit. If this dichotomy does exist then it's almost certainly due to societal pressure than any biological impulses.
>>271197995This. Lest we forget. Pedastry was a somewhat common practice in pre-christian civilizations including Greece, Rome, and even many asian countries. As a matter of fact, homosexuality was far more tolerated in Asia than the West until very recently.
Debates about Oscar's sexuality from a Western perspective are nonsensical. She is literally a Takarazuka male role, nothing more and nothing less.Although The Rose of Versailles is set in France, it is fundamentally rooted in uniquely Japanese culture.
>>271197637>the source is stats from a actual porn siteThis is actually convincing. Porn sites are places where everyone can be honest with themselves, without worrying about social appearances.
>>271198390Didn't she fall in love with Fersen before he even started messing around with Antoinette?
>>271199143if you do some research, shudo (wakashudo) was a thing until meiji restoration, and like bushido, was a "way of living". male prostitution was a thing, like kabuki boys.
>>271198886I experienced it first hand for myself, and I can vouch for the fact it’s incredibly painful. Trauma bonds really make it easy to put someone on a pedestal, even when things aren’t working out. I think I get Oscar’s pain all too well now.>>271199232Homosexuality isn’t a strictly western concept though. Takarazuka culture is rooted in lesbianism. In fact, it was kind of an open secret that members of the Revue and their female fans often dated and fucked eachother. Also, many countries have a variant of the “female warrior” archetype. Oscar just happens to be one of the most iconic and arguably best ones. I think that explains why RoV was also a huge hit internationally, as well as locally.
>>271199232Ikeda was allowed to that concept because the popularity of Takarzuka with girls, ROV is a shoujo first and foremost. Highschool girls (and older) were shocked when Oscar died and I remember reading how that caused a ruckus in many schools.
>>271198791The one by the guy who did kokou no hito, whats his nameHe made everybody a slut tho, even not-Oscar so I dropped it
>>271199421Homosexuality was also widely accepted in ancient China. Appearing many times in ancient chinese literature. One Chen Emperor even famously telling his male lover that when he became emperor he'd make him queen.
>>271199421The kabuki thing was mostly because the government outlawed onna kabuki since it was just prostitution but then the samurai became fags when that they no longer could fuck hot actresses thus they said "fuck it its our code now"
>>271199667wakashudo was "imported" from china like many other things that very much loved, like literature or art.
>>271199409No, considering that Fersen fell in love with Antoinette at first sight, and that was just moments before he even met Oscar. It was seeing how happy Antoinette was with Fersen that made Oscar fall for him. It’s also one of the many reasons why Oscar was quite soft on Antoinette in general and didn’t reprimand her as much as she really should have.
>>271197574Most WOMEN feel uncomfortable seeing naked men. Because most naked men are ugly hairy beasts. It has nothing to do with potential male attractiveness to well-groomed men.
>>271199531Takarazuka may appear to be lesbian-oriented, but that’s not actually the case. Both the members and fans ultimately end up in relationships with male partners (also many married housewives are fans of Takarazuka). However, it’s not as if the members reluctantly flirt or date women as a performance for the fans—they genuinely enjoy such activities. You might then wonder if they are bisexual, but that’s also a bit different. It’s difficult to categorize them within the genres created by the West.
>>271199700sure, it started as onnagata etc etc but a lot of male actors who were popular were also prostitutes and men fought over them.also about samurai being 女ぎらい its a long discussion that goes back to sengoku era, but as a caste even during edo period, when if there was a decline, samurai and monks were the ones who would follow shudo
>>271192897How come I've only ever heard of men and trooned out fujos that like this anime? I've never heard an actual woman say they like it...
>>271199964There are no women on 4chan
>>271199964Don't think any sane woman would talk with you about their hobbies in the first place.
>>271199964Clearly you’ve never been to Tumblr or spoken to Italian or Japanese women. Female RoV fans are everywhere, just not on 4chan. This is one of the places where the male portion of the fanbase hangs out.
>>271200078>or spoken to Italian [...] womenThat's very specific
>>271200150Old school shojo was pretty big in Italy, stuff like Tokimeki Tonight, Candy Candy and RoV were really huge apparently
>>271199964The truth is that it's for old hags, extremely masculine dykes and men who want to be lesbians (which is the majority of tumblr userbase). Most women don't care about this shit. Even the majority fujos would rather watch JJK or Naruto than read gender bendy shit with female characters.
I think I love her
>>271193960Stop being relavent? No.Ruined by gaujin fags? Yes!
my wife
>>271200275Fujo here and honestly I prefer read old stuff like this, that's full of straight relationships, that any JJK or Naruto bullshit
>>271199964maybe because it's twice as old as the average western anime fan
>>271200275I’d disagree with that. RoV has a very broad appeal because it touches on so many genres. It has action, adventure, political drama, romance, soap opera drama, arthouse elements and is also a historical epic on top of all that. It’s no wonder the series became so popular with appeal as broad as that.Really, the only people it’s not popular with are people who are averse to watching “old” media. But maybe those people will get interested in it once the remake comes out.
>>271200218Can confirm. Shoujo was pretty big, now is in decline because publishers prefer make easy money since the covid boom in manga sales.
>>271200585Its also hard to find a character thats as well liked as Oscar in a lot of media, she just clicks with a lot of people's tastes
>>271200773I don't like Oscar
>>271200773Probably because Oscar is an example of a “strong woman” character done right.She’s badass and an absolute saint in a way that’s believable, but she also has flaws that make her human and not a Mary Sue. It also helps that she’s hot af, and that she’s masculine enough to make lesbians and men who like dominant women swoon, while also being feminine enough that men who like more submissive women can dream of the idea of breaking through her icy exterior and making her feel like a woman.Ikeda struck gold when she came up with Oscar, and it’s hard to imagine that Oscar was originally going to be male until Ikeda decided to make her female.
>>271195166I gotta agree with this it felt like it came out of nowhere for Andre who was otherwise so gentle with Oscar. Pulling her in for a kiss would have been enough. It’s by far my least favorite scene in the story and I wouldn’t be upset at all if a remake cut it. That Andre would betray Oscar in such a way does not feel consistent with his characterization and the role he had played in Oscar’s life.
>>271201155It's just the anime. The manga is not like that.>>271201153I think Julius from Orpheus no Mado would be way more popular than Oscar if the manga got a Dezaki's adaptation like RoVI wonder why Ikeda never got the offer to make something out of it since she considered that manga her best work.
>>271200882>not liking the perfect humanLiterally why?>>271201155Andre was at his breaking point at that point in the story. He’d been blueballed for almost 20 years, and was slowly watching Oscar grow more distant from him, he was facing the prospect of going permanently blind, and to top it all off, Oscar was now proposing to leave and possibly never see him again even after all the effort he’d put in for her. Any man would snap under those circumstances.Besides, he immediately regretted it as soon as he did it, which is why he never fully went through with it. It was something he did in a moment of blind rage and desperation.
>fersen became a tyrant and was killed lolTruly the second half of the last episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Should have ended after oscar died.
>>271201621No, no you dont get it. It should've set Napoleon's adaptation by Dezaki a 99 episode masterpiece
>>271201477I don't like "handsome" female characters unless they're violently ripped from their pedestal
Best girlt.austrian
>>271201416>I wonder why Ikeda never got the offer to make something out of it since she considered that manga her best work.There’s two reasons:1. The RoV anime was a complete flop when it first aired, and it didn’t get its status as a GOAT anime until it got a second airing in the mid-late 80s.2. The only reason that Oniisama e got an anime adaptation was because Dezaki really wanted to make an adaptation of it as a passion project, and he managed to convince people to do it because of his reputation.The real question is why Ikeda hasn’t published her entire body of work in English. ESPECIALLY Eikoku No Napoleon, which is the sequel to RoV.
>>271201659Imagine a timeline where after Oniisama e, Dezaki did an adaptation of every remaining Ikeda manga. Napoleon, Orpheus no Mado, a Claudine OVA.Everyday, I’m sad that we’re not in that timeline.
>>271201810Interesting.About Napoleon manga, it was published in my country, I have the first volumes but for some reasons I stopped buying them (it was forever ago, can't even remember the reason), now is a bit harder to get it but not impossible like Nibelungen no Yubiwa
>>271202847I’m still waiting for someone to do a fan-translation of it. Anyone who’d do that would be a hero in my eyes.Also, Orpheus’ fan translation was abandoned years ago, so that needs completed.
>>271192897>MC gets molested by childhood friend and ends up forgiving him for itIt´s not like lately the MC has ended with the bad guy in any movie...(the last of Onions wars)
Wished dezaki made a mecha series
>>271204883Technically speaking, he did. Pic related.
>>271201153Most strong women are shown up as evil bitches. People don't want women for what they are
What is it about this show’s atmosphere that’s just so unique and hard to capture? There’s a comfy, yet gritty vibe to it that nothing else seems to match. WMT anime comes close, I suppose, but they still don’t quite hit the same notes.
>>271199964My mom and her high school friends loved this show. She even asked me to download it for her. Ultimately you have to remember that it's a 45 year old show and it didn't reach the rest of the world until the mid 80's. Only old people and shoujo nerds really remember it.
There is an anime film in the works
>>271207305I mean, it’s not like the series is exactly obscure either. Its high critical acclaim and the fact that it was so insanely influential on anime as a whole keeps it in the public consciousness. Yes, unless you grew up in Europe or Japan, normies or really entry level anime fans aren’t going to be aware of it, but it’s the kind of series you find very quickly if you decide to dig a bit deeper into the medium’s history because of how often it pops up on “best of all time” lists. When I first started getting into anime seriously, it didn’t take long at all before I learned of RoV’s existence and absolutely fell in love with the series, and I’m a zoomer.>>271207415Yeah, and I feel making it into a movie is a mistake. The story is way too grand and epic to be condensed into the runtime of a movie. A 6 hour long miniseries is what you would need AT LEAST.Credit where credit is due though: It looks faithful to the source material despite the visuals being way too clean and plasticky.Plus, the casting is pretty good.
>>271207415By Mappa that looks like soulless garbage and has an utterly mediocre director attached. People will like it for the vintage shoujo aesthetic and because it's a famous manga and nothing else.
>>271207811The script is being written by the scriptwriter of Oniisama e though, so that gives me hope for the writing/script of nothing else.
>>271207612I'm not saying that it's the most obscure series out there, but if you are already looking for people willing to look at at recommendations for "best shows of all time" and choose the 70's shoujo then you are dealing with a group of people much smaller than you believe. It's really not the first or third choice when talking about anime in the wild.
>>271199964Because you only hang with shounenshitter normies
>>271201810>The real question is why Ikeda hasn’t published her entire body of work in English. ESPECIALLY Eikoku No Napoleon, which is the sequel to RoV.Probably because it's old shoujo that would be a hard sell, and she herself is known to be very selective and picky about how her work is handled. It took decades for any publisher to even pick up RoV in full and years longer to actually release it. How many average weebs in burgerland are going to buy a manga about Napoleon with girly art from the 1980s? It would flop hard unless it was one of those collector's market kickstarter things.
Been meaning to get into, should I read the manga or watch the anime?
>>271211437Both. But the anime if you’re going to pick one, but nothing else.
>>271194743I thought it was from Cream Lemon.
>>271193802>ldp party?
>>271192897I took engage in culture war politics
>>271195166>heterosexual yaoi
>>271201477>>271201416I get how they justified his behavior in the manga I just don't like it, it didn't feel romantic>>271203435What languages was it published in other than Japanese? Spanish, French or Italian it shouldn't be hard to translate. Imperfect but better than nothing.
>>271211437I think its easier to get into the manga, the art is beautiful
>>271212472It was published in all of those languages. Ikeda manga are weird because with the exception of RoV, Claudine and Oniisama e, they’re basically translated into every language EXCEPT English.This might change when the remake gets its inevitable English dub, which you know is coming.We’ll get to hear Oscar and co. talk in English for the first time.
