Good for you

>>20685699
Could you make a conscious choice to be sexually attracted to men, or are you programmed like a machine to like women? If that is programming, how much of everything else about you is just stock programming?

>>20685701
>Could you make a conscious choice to be sexually attracted to men
No.

>are you programmed like a machine to like women?
No.

What bearing does it have on free will, anyway?

Free will could be an illusion, a projection of your subconscious

>>20685699
Demonstrate a will free from casue and effect

>>20685703
>projection
>subconscious
define using only a 100% deterministic framework

>>20685704
Prove that "cause and effect" is real and then define "free will" prove that one contradicts the other.

>>20685699
your brain is a sum of mathematical equations, chemical reactions, physical laws and how your culture and people in your surrounding influence(d) it.
so is brain of everyone else, therefore everything you and everyone else ever thought, felt or did was decided from the start

>>20685707
not saged btw

>>20685701
>this one specific non-action isn’t free will
>therefore, there is no free will
Idiot

if physics applies to a baseball, it applies to your brain is the core argument for determinism (strict causality, otherwise known as "fate")

there are other theories that allow for randomness, but a Universal RNG is a probability generator, not a "will" generator

so as much as it feels like you're making choices, the onus is on you to prove that choice making is occurring, not on determinists to suggest otherwise with countless physics experiments and inventions that rely on a deterministic universe to function.

FWIW I believe in a soul and I expend a great deal of effort trying to make the "right choice" but I still cant really prove that I'm actually doing that rather than watching some sort of movie of a guy locked to a specific fate with the illusion of choice so that he doesn't go insane.

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>>20685710
So in other words you get to make limited choices based on what's available.

>>20685702
>What bearing does it have on free will, anyway?
It means your will is based on cause and effect

>>20685707
>your brain is a sum of mathematical equations, chemical reactions, physical laws and how your culture and people in your surrounding influence(d) it.
Proof?

Quantum mechanics is a huge blessing.

>>20685706
>Prove that "cause and effect"
You just did nu replying to me

>>20685699
In order to have freewill you have to think. Thinking is done autonomously by the brain. There's no freewill, it's an illusion.

>>20685712
No, it doesn't, but also your premise was false. Can you fail harder?

Cope for unhappy people who don’t want to take responsibility. More interestingly consider the opposite extreme; I understood it through Schopenhauer but will quote BAP who summarized it elegantly:
>„Some think this view [unity of body and mind] absolves you of your responsibility for your acts. But actually you’re responsible for much more than your acts. That which is said to constrain or determine you biologically is actually what you are. It does restrain your acts according to its inherent ways of desiring and acting, but you are this it, and it decided to be, so actually you are responsible for much more, you’re responsible for what you are. You are responsible for the good and bad things that happen to you, for any accident or disease you might experience! Actually it was all going to happen to you just the way it did at the moment of your birth or conception and even before, at the moment your parents had a glint for each other in the eye. There is fundamentally no difference between you and that glint.”
In other words “you” and “your life” are a manifestation of an idea, a greater plan, in Schopenhauer’s language a gradation of the will’s objectification

>>20685713
Your ability to type in English

>>20685715
When the old thread died I removed the filter and saw that you replied to me several dozen times after I filtered you. You are legit mentally ill. ID goes to the filter now. Do it again, you broken automaton.

>>20685711
No, in other words the choice itself is an illusion. Whatever you think you chose is no more your choice than an apple decided to fall from a tree rather than continue to hang on the branch.

Whatever happened is what *had* to happen in all cases. All time is a linear cause and event chain, and all imaginings of alternative outcomes are simply hallucinations of the pattern recognition brain of a monkey who tries to extrapolate future events from past information -- purely hallucinatory.

>>20685717
>No, it doesn't
OK, so why don't you fuck men?

>>20685713
>grass is green
>>proof?

>>20685716
>In order to have freewill you have to think.
>Thinking is done autonomously by the brain.
Ok. Suppose this is true.

>There's no freewill,
This doesn't logically follow from your premises. You failed.

>>20685720
>Do it again, you broken automaton
And here you are replying to me again, based on cause and effect.

>>20685723
So you have no proof of your claims. At least you admit it. Adding your flag to the filter now since Poles are always subhuman posters.

>>20685699
It literally doesn't exist because time doesn't exist. All things simply ARE in their entirety. You are a book already written from front to back. You're just reading it one page at a time. There are no should haves or would haves and theres no such thing as choice. Anything you THINK you are choosing is simply what you already did or ARE doing or have done. Your entire life and everything you will EVER do has already happened and is currently happening just as much as it will happen.

>>20685706
You have proven it yourself in the last thread where i easily altered your subconscious thought processes, subjugated your so called free will and set you up for a butthurt loop, you did exactly what i wanted you to do

>>20685726
>Adding your flag to the filter now
You need to go back to r/eddit

>>20685724
>This doesn't logically follow from your premises. You failed.

Yes it does. The thought came from your brain not from "you", as "you" are your thoughts, which came from your brain.

In order to have free will you would need to be able to generate and construct entire thoughts on your own, including which parts of your brain you use to construct that thought.

You cannot willingly decide which parts of your brain construct your thoughts. You cannot willingly decide which collection of neurons in your neural network fired in order to make that thought happen.

>>20685726
>prove to me what is obvious or I will blacklist you
bye then you faggot, your subhuman brain was predetermined to do that as a coping mechanism any way

>>20685699
I'm a compatibilist.

>>20685699
Freewill and determinism are compatible. People are just limited by their hardware (intellect and ingenuity). Genetics play a substantial role in the decisions you make but it’s not an end all be all.

>>20685710
You can't prove that consciousness is not a will generator. It's important to keep an open mind in this area.

Robert knows some interesting things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv38taDUpwQ

>>20685730
>Yes it does.
Show it, then.

>In order to have free will you would need to be able to generate and construct entire thoughts on your own
Why? What does this babble even mean?

>>20685734
>You can't prove that consciousness is not a will generator. It's important to keep an open mind in this area.

Correct. You can't prove that consciousness is not a wave form of energy generated by stars and we're all just meat puppets doing a stage play for inanimate hydrogen fusion factories.

Lots of things can't be proven. But macro classical newtonian physics works and everything subatomic is theoretical, so for the time being as far as we can tell, we aren't making choices.

Maybe the stars are though, who knows.

>>20685736
>Why? What does this babble even mean?
If you have no control over how the thought is generated, then you didn't will it to happen. It happened because of biological precursors that set that thought in motion.

>>20685735
>Robert knows some interesting things.
Yes, things like trannies having "female brains", like intelligence being heritable not meaning that intelligence is genetic, like twin studies not proving anything, like all behavior being biological but all nigger behavior being caused by racism, and other things that a LITERAL KIKE THAT HE IS would be expected to "know".

>>20685738
>If you have no control over how the thought is generated, then you didn't will it to happen.
"Control over how a thought is generated"? What does this babble mean? And how does it relate to free will?

>>20685699
we do not have free will but we do have freedom of choice
I cannot change who I am but I can act on it or not

>>20685739
what a hot take faggot. What he actually says correlates with pol saying niggers are gonna nigger. He just can't say it like that, but he says it's all biological precursors and some people need to be separated from society (niggers).

>>20685740
>What does this babble mean?
That your will isn't free but based on the biological processes on how your brain handles cause and effect.

>>20685737
>macro classical newtonian physics works
Then surely you have tons of examples using it to predict behavior. Oh, you actually don't?

>>20685740
>And how does it relate to free will?
A thought happens in your brain, it's a biological action like regrowing your hair or scar tissue.

Try willing your fingernails to grow faster or slower and see how you get on faggot.

>>20685699
Read Peter Van Inwagen, faggot
>1. Every moment is the direct result of the moment which immediately precedes it, combined with the laws of physics
>2. You cannot change the past
>3. You cannot change the laws of physics
>C. You cannot change the present or future
QED

>>20685742
>he's a kiked and he has traditional kiked opinions about everything
>but it doesn't count when he agrees with my particular kiked opinion

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>>20685721
Well then, when will humanities ability to make poor choices be removed so that we won't suffer?

>>20685745
>A thought happens in your brain
Proof? Also, you didn't explain what it means to "control how thoughts are created", nor explained how it relates to free will.

>>20685746
>1. Every moment is the direct result of the moment which immediately precedes it, combined with the laws of physics
Proof? I mean, nevermind proving this insane statement, start by proving that there are "moments" that "precede" each other.

>>20685749
>>A thought happens in your brain
>Proof?
You thought to reply when reading his reply. A brain processed that choice

prepare for a Godtier post, humbly hahahaha

so basically, you can ironically will yourself out of free will, you are free to not be free

but hahaha thats you, not me, I choose to be, I am

nobody can take that away, this is the meaning of being a "Free man"

you "progres" dont understand, slavery is a self imposed state

you need to actively be free willfully constantly, this is what being a "free man" means, its doesnt mean having land, it doesnt mean being royalty

being free means you choose to be, you make your will

This is why its easy to become a tyrant, to fall for the path of Satan

Because we Free Men are LITERAL INCARNATIONS OF GOD!!!!

but we are not tyrants, we are Christ, we are servants

you can choose to be slave lol, I dont care, I would advice you not to be cattle, but thats your choice

t. God Emperor of Earth, Secret Illuminati world ruler

>>20685745
>Try willing your fingernails to grow faster
Just eat more biotin and chicken broth and put oil on them.

>>20685750
>>1. Every moment is the direct result of the moment which immediately precedes it, combined with the laws of physics
>Proof?
You making a choice to reply to his thread

>>20685750
It is self-evident, hence why no philosophers disagree with it. You just cannot see this, because you have the IQ of the average transnistrian

>>20685750
>start by proving that there are "moments" that "precede" each other.
You replying to his reply. You making a thread and then people replying

>>20685755
>It is self-evident
So no proof for your premises and no logic that leads to your conclusion. Concession accepted.

>>20685701
Is that technically an aspect of free-will though? I don't think so. Free will is about actions and what you would do, not what you would or will not feel.

Given your logic, if I can't change the speed of light or gravity to be less or more is that somehow a lack of "free will" because I simply "don't want" to be visible or want to weight more/less?

>b-but that's Physics not Psychology...
okay and? Why can't I just free will that too? Oh because it's out of my control.

>>20685757
>So no proof for your premises
Your continued involvement ITT is the proof

>>20685758
>Free will is about actions and what you would do
Demonstrate an action free from cause and effect

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>>20685757
>muh no source
Do you know how philosophy works?

>>20685743
>learns about free will
>oh so I can CHOOSE
>no, you can't
>can choose A or B to eat today
>A came to mind first but I want to have choice, eat B instead
>that's what would have happened anyways
it's simultaneously edgy and gay while being deep at the same time

>>20685760
You tell me to flip a coin, should I? Will I? Why or why not?

Either I do it, or I do not. Do you think somehow this is pre-calculated and that my decision in my head is not original?

>"Free" will
>will Is not in fact free by definition
Use better terminology and this autism will end

>>20685762
Free will isn't about the ability to make a choice but why. And the why is causality

>>20685761
>Do you know how philosophy works?
Sure. You start by defining things and making sound arguments. Go ahead and do that to demonstrate that there are some discrete "moments" that follow each other in a sequence.

>>20685763
>Why or why not?
Exactly. Choice is based on cause and effect

>>20685699
Can you shoot lasers out of your eyes?

Stupid fucking dipshit.

>>20685766
>You start by defining things and making sound arguments
When that happens you claim to filter their ID

>>20685722
evolution

>>20685766
>Go ahead and do that to demonstrate that there are some discrete "moments" that follow each other in a sequence.
You made a thread for replies and you reply In the thread you made

>>20685699
causality and consequence mean that free will doesn't exist, not that you can wrap your head around that, and it's probably for the best that you DON'T because doing so will probably cause you to fly off the handle and do some retarded ass shit

>>20685770
And what does evolution do for you in this context?

>>20685772
>causality and consequence mean that free will doesn't exist
Prove that "causality" is real then show how it contradicts free will.

>>20685744
yeah they're called trading bots, crime statistics systems, weather models (not human behavior but a prediction of physics none the less)...

we have lots of prediction tools. turns out the bottleneck is data and computing power to do the math of systems acting on systems recursively.

>>20685704
faggot

>>20685767
Perhaps, but lack of free will means that I don't choose anything related to actually doing or how it is done.

The entire thing branches into a ton of choices.

>do I tell you to fuck off and not flip the coin
>do I flip the coin and roll my eyes
>do I flip the coin aggressively towards your chest
>do I flip the coin behind me and say pick it up faggot
>do I flip the coin in my hand and say happy now?
>do I flip the coin as high as I can?
>do I flip the coin at an angle intentionally?

the list goes on and on, I don't see how you could say somehow the universe has pre-ordained this simply because "i dont have free will"

now I do agree with cause and effect but it doesn't somehow cancel out free will. imagine I decide to flip the coin behind me on the side of the street, and some homeless bum goes to run after it as it rolls down the road and someone else almost hits him while driving and has to slam brakes, and gets rear-ended by the person behind them because they're not paying attention on their phone.

now this is all cause and effect, but everyone involved had choices. the homeless person could have not cared about it, or paid attention better, the first driver could have just hit him or swerved around him, and the other person could have been paying attention while driving. they all chose those things.

>>20685699
Well I don't know who this Will is, I agree it looks awfully uncomfortable in that head shaped prison (how does he even sleep or go to the bathroom??) BUT maybe he did something to earn that punishment...
Someone made extreme efforts to lock him up in such a weird cage, either he's up to something or his captors are up to something

>>20685774
>Prove that "causality" is real
His reply which caused you to reply
>then show how it contradicts free will.
You didn't freely decide to reply, you needed his reply to tailor your reply to his

>>20685707
you also forgot about metacognition.

>>20685766
Read Hume

>>20685774
>prove that if a then b
yeah, you are literally incapable of understanding the fundamental basis of formal logic, and again, that's for the best

>>20685775
>trading bots, crime statistics systems, weather models
None of these use Newtonian physics to predict individual behavior. You sound like you suffer from some kind of delusional illness.

>>20685776
More boohooing in this thread too?
>>20685777
>The entire thing branches into a ton of choices
Based on consequences desired aka effects

>>20685781
>ummm sweaty my argument is just heckin' educate yourself ok??
So you have absolutely nothing, as predicted. Thanks for playing.

These dumbasses arguing yet they still cannot shoot lasers out of their eyes

>>20685717
No, he's right. Your "free will" to result in a choice is limited by this:
>your hard-wired preference
>your experiences in life
>your limited awareness of all possible options
Basically, it's just a really complicated set of logic gates which you mistake as free will, but you're essentially just an unwitting slave to your brain, none of which is actually controlled by you.

>>20685768
actually we can

>>20685782
Formal logic posits abstract rules. It doesn't prove anything about the nature of reality.

>>20685699
Most humans in civilization were not born to be free and were slaves or practically slaves in society. Before civilization, they were slaves to the many gods they invented and "fate". The human mind is prone to groupthink and is easily influenced by deceivers. "Free will" can exist, but takes effort and is not just "being free" and being able to buy and shoot guns. It's about who has real power and control over your society.

>>20685788
Proof?

>>20685787
Exactly this

>>20685699
How about you explain what free will even is first?

>>20685787
That's a bunch of statements none of which you can prove.

>>20685785
you dont believe in causation nigger, there's not much i can do to convince an ultimate skeptic.
>how can free will exist if i'm actually just a brain in a vat kek

>>20685779
and he had to reply because the consequence of not replying would be him not getting the last word in the argument and thus me "winning" it, which he can't have because he has to believe in the fairytale of free will otherwise the consequence of that would be to go crazy because then it would be all "nothing matters" on an endless negative feedback loop in his neurons

>>20685794
You just proved it again

>>20685783
You sound like you're arguing in bad faith and have run into an IQ wall

Do you want to predict individual behavior within a probability or with certainty? If certainty, you'll need a data set comprised of every atom in the universe with it's movement vector, probably over a reasonable snapshot of time and a computer that can process all that information that itself is contained within the universe and who's atoms are part of the model it is using to predict the individuals next action from.

If you want to do probability and you are willing to forgo some external variables by reducing the participants choices down to a binary choice you can use data from their previous choices to make a guess better than a coin flip. Google uses this to decide how to sell ad inventory for your user ID for instance.

>>20685796
You nailed it anon

>>20685793
>How about you explain what free will even is first?
Why should I? It's your problem if you're so ass-burned about it that you feel a compulsion to try to "refute" it. Go ahead, provide a sensible definition and a sound argument.

>>20685784
Yes, possibilities based on the actions taken by other people and animals. You are suggesting that every action that will be taken is already calculated by the universe because if it is just all cause and effect then life is on rails.

I could jerk off right now into my keyboard suddenly because "well that's what was going to happen anyways".

>>20685794
We can prove it, though.
>babies inherently have preferences for toys when given a selection to choose from, showing preference is innate
>people are always impacted by their experiences in life, this is without question a fact of reality
>you don't know everything

>>20685728
you sound gay

>>20685794
Cause and effect governs everything in the universe including your brain

>>20685795
>you dont believe in causation nigger
I didn't argue anything about causation one way or another.

>>20685794
>brain surgery
>computers reading thoughts and dreams
>stimulating brains to help limbs move
>magnets to change opinions
>brain damage to change personality

It's all biological precursors.

>>20685804
>Cause and effect governs everything in the universe including your brain
Prove this statement then show how your beliefs follow logically from it.

>>20685798
>Do you want to predict individual behavior within a probability or with certainty?
Your premise requires certainty.

>, you'll need a data set comprised of every atom in the universe
Not my problem that proof of your metaphysical fantasies relies on fundamentally impossible premises.

>>20685800
you've already been rigorous proofs many times over, you are just too stubborn to accept them and too stupid to understand them, which is why you NEED to have this illusion, you aren't mentally strong enough to withstand the reality of the situation

>>20685801
>Yes, possibilities based on the actions taken by other people and animals
Sure and yourself too
>You are suggesting that every action that will be taken is already calculated by the universe because if it is just all cause and effect then life is on rails.
No? I'm stating that having the ability to understand how impactuful your choices are, will then give you real freedom to make better choices to produce better environments to make better choices that ultimately produce better consequences

>>20685802
>>20685806
You just made a bunch of random assertions. This is a consistent pattern with you: any time someone challenges the last set of random assertions, you vomit a pile of new ones, never approaching any coherent line of reasoning, let alone a sound logical argument from premises to conclusion.

>>20685699
There is no free will. Everything is predetermined. You not believing everything is predetermined itself is predetermined. You making this thread was predetermined and me replying to it was predetermined based on the sum of variables that have caused our existence and personalities to be shaped the exact way they are for this exact moment to happen.

>>20685774
Are you demanding a proof for the principle of sufficient reason? Ok, fine, I actually like absurdist comedy: can you give me a proof for your right to demand a proof? Let’s go in circles forever like this; if you can’t do philosophy then at least with some effort you could make an amusing farce of it

>>20685800
I'm not refuting anything because I don't know what you're talking about. You say there's such a thing as free will, tell me what it is and how it works.

>>20685801
>I could jerk off right now into my keyboard suddenly
Which both has reasons and outcomes aka causes and effects

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>>20685699
You mean you've never allowed yourself to recognize one. Unless you're blind, of course.

Give me a proof that your silly little "free will" superstition is real. One that works without faith aka baseless assumptions. You can't prove it. Free will is like god. An illusion made up by smart men so they can enslave stupid men.

The really cool thing is that if you present your brain with information it "might" be able to use it regardless of what you think of your own abilities.

When you read something like maths over and over and you suddenly "get it", that's your brain creating a new set of neural networks that is. Pretty neat.

>>20685814
>I'm not refuting anything
No problem, fren. Then there's nothing for you to do ITT.

> You say there's such a thing as free will,
Uh oh. Are you off your meds again? I said no such thing.

Understanding the illusion of free will is a filter that OP simply cannot get past.

>>20685811
>You just made a bunch of random assertions.
No, I didn't. They're not random at all, and I fully backed them up.
>This is a consistent pattern with you
You're confusing me with someone else. Are you colourblind?

>>20685808
If you want to predict an individual's behavior in a controlled environment you simply need all the atoms and vectors in that environment, it's just useless cause you'd have to keep them in a controlled environment which would give you data that may be useless outside of the vacuum.

why are you obsessed with using physics to predict human behaviors, and how do you think that relates to your free will? do you suppose that free will is the reason that computers can't predict your next move even though computers can increasingly predict more and more of data-generous users next moves with increasingly high certainty?

>>20685818
This is a very disingenuous person

>>20685699
That's because you're lying.

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>120+ posts
>0 attempts at a sound argument
Maybe the proper application of reason requires free will and these bots don't have it?

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>>20685791

emission theory was haste-fully discarted, but it will come back when we finally understand quantum reality

quantum emission awareness

>>20685824
>I claim to filter IDs when i.cant refute

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>>20685791

>>20685821
>If you want to predict an individual's behavior in a controlled environment you simply need all the atoms and vectors in that environment,
Ok, call me back when your theoretical fantasies produce empirical support for your metaphysical beliefs.

>>20685824
I already gave you one here >>20685787 and here >>20685802 but you've not actually engaged with it, you've just said "nuh uh" like you didn't understand it.

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>>20685791
.

>>20685811
ok maybe I'm not a pro 4chan debater like you are, but really the premise is on you to prove free will exists. I'm merely giving you some reasons as to why it doesn't.

I can't 100% prove free will exists or what even constitutes free will from your perspective. You need to explain what free will is and then prove you can perform a test to observe it.

>>20685829
That's just a pile of assertions. None of them are proven and there is no logic provided to show how they necessarily lead to your conclusion.

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>>20685791
0

>>20685824
Argument against what? You still haven't explained what free will is.

>>20685831
>I'm merely giving you some reasons as to why it doesn't.
No, you just shit out assertions you can't back up, while failing to show how they lead to your conclusion.

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>>20685791
1

>>20685828
Alright well let me know when you figure out where your will is stored. I'd love to measure it.

>>20685834
Not my problem. Since you explicitly stated that you are not refuting anything, I'm just gonna add your ID to the filter now because your irrelevant spam is tedious.

>>20685803
want to hook up?:3

oh my gosh guys we have figured out the mechanics by which people exercise their free will.
so its disproven becuase we know how you make choices.
omg guys my free will cant satiate my every need and whim instantaeniously.
omg guys the only acausal thing doesnt exist free will deboonked.
omg guys it actually takes effort to be a ceo of a fortune 500 company
free will doesnt exist becuase im a lazy cunt and you reply to bait threads.
omg guys free will doesnt exist becuase the world is an illusion of suffering.
omg guys free will doesnt exist becuase im a huge fat faggot.
like geez youre still replying to this thread that must mean free will doesnt exist.
omg i just read in this book that free will doesnt exist
just pack it up.
launch the nukes.
just murder your neighbirs then fuck their bloddy corpses.
morals dont exist they are a figment of your imagination.

>>20685835
I can't back up that strokes change peoples personality?

I can't back up that we can read thoughts and translate them to moving a cursor on a computer screen?

Do you live under a rock?

>>20685699
Niggers? And nigger or naco attitude?

>>20685832
No, you can't keep just shrugging off actual arguments by claiming they're a "pile of assertions". You need to refute the argument made, why are you so incapable of doing so? Look, I'll make it really easy for you and hold your hand through this:

People have preferences, yes or no?

>>20685838
>>20685728
still waiting for a counterproof

>>20685835
how utterly ironic, that's exactly what you've done by making this thread, define free will and then prove it exists

>>20685824
If your jewish "god" is omnipotent, the creator, and all-loving, that means he knows what every single thing he creates is going to do before he creates them, as he cannot hide knowledge from himself. Thus, by irrefutable logic, he creates people to do everything that they do in life.

Free will defeated.

Let's go further: That also means he creates a portion of the population to be evil, so they can spread misery and he can torture them forever (in a place invented by Greek Hellenic Polytheists and not jews... it's complicated). Thus, by irrefutable logic, he is not "all-loving".

Abrahamism defeated.

Now, was that so hard? Also, I appreciate you dropping the cringe crusader flag for once in your slide threads. Now we can all see you're a gyppo.

>>20685837
So you have no actual argument against free will besides metaphysical fantasies about what would happen if you could magically measure ever atom (without interacting with it, presumably) and feed it into a some cosmic hyper-computer with a perfect physical model.

In order to prove free will you need to prove that someone has acted in a way that is completely and utterly dependent of their biology.

Can you understand that and why that's impossible?

>>20685843
>shrugging off actual arguments
You never made one. An actual argument consists of provably true premises and a chain of reasoning taking you to the conclusion.

>>20685838
This is great op. It's funny watching people larp that they totally got you. Thanks.

>>20685840
retard, just because free will doesn't exist doesn't mean nothing matters, in fact it is LITERALLY the exact fucking opposite, things only matter BECAUSE free will doesn't exist, things only matter BECAUSE causality and consequence makes things matter, the stupidest motherfuckers yap the fucking loudest, fuck off

>>20685848
>In order to prove free will you need to prove that someone has acted in a way that is completely and utterly dependent of their biology.
Why?

>>20685849
I'll repeat just to really confirm how much of a disingenuous faggot you're being:

People have preferences, yes or no?

>>20685843
This is what he does in these slide threads. He asks a question, gets immediately BTFO, and then gaslights the whole thread pretending he either didn't understand the answer or that the answer was somehow wrong, without elaborating. If other people notice the answer and comment on it, making a response absolutely required, he just ignores the answer and replies to other people.

>>20685839
yes

>>20685847
The argument is that there is no reason to believe that physics which is repeatable and understandable for an apple would be any different than physics occurring in an animal, or in this case, human. That no matter how special and smart the human thinks he is -- he's still bound by the same rules as everything else, and so is probably exhibiting a (albeit very elaborate) causal effect chain of uncontrolled behaviors determined by his understanding of the environment.

There's no reason to assume free will exists when you can show that force = mass * acceleration and launch a rocket across an ocean. It's on you to give a reason why it is real, there's nothing ostensibly metaphysical about apples and rockets or assuming that rabbits, crocodiles, and humans also use the same rules as everything else in this world.

>>20685850
Nothing like sitting back and relaxing as a bunch of tards trip over themselves trying to "prove" their baseless and unprovable beliefs. :^)

>>20685850
I am providing sacred secret knowledge and you plebs don't even care, you used to only know this in the highest positions of power, I bring plebs light and you scoff on it

I guess the Reptilians might be right about humanity

>>20685853
>People have preferences, yes or no?
Sure.

>>20685699
It’s simple, when I see a nice butt I must coom

>>20685852
If the biology created the thought, then it was not willed in to being, it happened through cause and effect of physical qualities of the brain and environment.

We know if someone has part of their brain damaged it changes their personality. This is literally known.

You can get drunk or take drugs or starve and your thoughts and decisions change. It's testable that your thoughts change based on biological factors.

>>20685856
>The argument is that there is no reason to believe that physics which is repeatable and understandable for an apple would be any different than physics occurring in an animal, or in this case, human.
But you have not even gotten as far as empirically demonstrating causality, let alone full-blown determinism, for an apple, let alone a human.

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>>20685859
Then you've done all the work for me and proved free will doesn't exist. I know you probably don't even understand how you did by admitting that, but at least the rest of the thread knows.

>>20685854
yeah, it's pure pilpul, he's a fucking jew on a moldovan vpn, this is EXACTLY what hitler wrote about in mein kampf
>gradually, i began to hate them

>>20685851
omg guys is causecand effect.
i love jerking it off to conditionals.
debate me more baby.
stoke my sophistry.
play with my dripping rhetoric.
call me daddy becuase you have no free will becuase everything matters.
literally
literally
literally.

>>20685836
>>20685833
>>20685830
>>20685827
>>20685825
>>20685752

this is top level stuff, if you dont take advantage of this information, you are a fucking retard

>>20685861
>If the biology created the thought, then it was not willed in to being
So what?

>it happened through cause and effect of physical qualities of the brain and environment.
Proof?

>We know if someone has part of their brain damaged it changes their personality
So what?

>>20685862
>But you have not even gotten as far as empirically demonstrating causality
You just demonstrated it. His reply caused you to reply. You even quot3d the reply oh his you're replying to. That's causality

I will say no more

keep on plebgoymaxxing

>>20685865
this

>>20685865
seethe cope and sit on your dreidel, malachai

>>20685867
>>it happened through cause and effect of physical qualities of the brain and environment.
>Proof?
You making a thread for replies

>>20685863
>you have preferences therefore ummm... hurrrr uhhh no free will b-b-b-because i said so
Nice argument. Is there a name for this form? Argument from Mental Illness, maybe?

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>>20685858

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>>20685867
sub 80 IQ right here. Everyone below this post is getting trolled.

>>20685871
omg im debating a jew
free will doesnt exist
a jew is talking to me online
no free will
there was sure a cause to this effect.
omg guys im about to bust my nut.

>>20685875
It's okay, we got him to admit free-will is an illusion now. >>20685859

>>20685859
yeah. i prefer first person shooters but sometimes I'll choose to play an rpg with my free will

>>20685840
>>20685865
This is what happens when people her their feelings hurt in the previous thread

>>20685875
Notice how you are unable to form coherent arguments or back up your claims when questioned.

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>>20685877
>we got him
And here the plebbitor shows its true face, updooting his ass buddies to establish a fake social consensus and soothe its asshurt. :^)

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>>20685876
>this is what kikes think a "debate" is

>>20685879
omg guys i hurt this guys feelings
no free will
it just doesnt blip into existance without a cause no free will

>>20685878
Based free will practicer. Gaming builds up all kinds of life skills.

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>>20685704
will without cause and effect isn't will at all. why would you will anything? will implies cause and effect

but if you want some useless choices and useless free will then here some of bit, answer this question :

46 or green?

You can go back on your choice at anytime and the choice isn't locked ever.

>>20685831
Here’s the thing though - the scientific method is only a few hundred years old and only works against the material universe. You and I both know that asking someone to prove the existence of consciousness, or God, or free will, or of the objective existence of suffering, are all fool’s errands. The idea that something only exists if it is measurable and provable against a material hypothesis is bonkers - it is an incredibly recent idea on the scale of human civilisation, let alone the human race. Asking if you can prove the existence of free will using measurement is fundamentally as stupid as asking if we can prove that we live in a simulation.

>>20685882
omg i need to call him a jew to win.
hes using same juvenile bullshit tactics no free will he was determined to do thid.
he was always determined to do this.
he must be driven by jewish demons surely not free will becuase that doesnt exist but atleast jews do

>>20685885
>You can go back on your choice at anytime and the choice isn't locked ever.

>any time

>units of time

>discrete choices

bro that's just trillions and trillions of discrete determinist navel gazing moments in the brain, not one single quantum choice

>>20685884
i think im gonna choose to play elden ring dlc later. not sure though, i might just choose to do something else instead. it's nice that i get to decide.

>>20685886
>Here’s the thing though - the scientific method is only a few hundred years old and only works against the material universe.
It did work AGAINST the material universe, with the outcome being the refutation of that imaginary universe and the death of materialism over a hundred years ago when modern physics was getting established.

>>20685888
how would you answer this question if you were god and had total free will?

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>>20685887
>juvenile bullshit tactics

>>20685787
>>20685772
That's quite a tranny argument
>hurrrrr our Will is interested in preferences and preferences are caused by casualty therefore free will no real
Free Will doesn't care about causalties, it exist independently of the noumenal world, it just tries to adapt. The Will itself IS the strife of the Spirit, therefore Free Will means you're Free to follow your Will you fucking retarded faggots. Without spiritual preferences that the Spirit follow, and material conversion in to sensible defined ideas, your whole existence would be meaningless, especially from the point of Consciousness itself. I mean, you atheistniggers are still better than christkikes, but for the love of "god" please be better.

>>20685699
The biggest argument against free will is an individual's behavior

>>20685891
But I did eat breakfast

>>20685892
omg guys look at this meme.
this clearly means free will doesnt exist

>>20685894
Uh huh, like the biggest argument against white supremacy is nigger behavior.

>Debate this thing I'll refuse to define and filter you if you ask me to.
What a thread.

>>20685838
Lmfao
I just love how triggered free willers get when you ask them to define free will.

>>20685893
>it just tries to adapt
"it" trying to adapt means causality determines its behavior and tailors it to favored consequences aka outcomes

>>20685881
>And here the plebbitor shows its true face
Says the guy who claims to filter IDs when he can't argue against them

>>20685898
what a caused cause
free will must not exist then if we cant define it.

>>20685883
Demonstrate a will free from cause and effect. You couldn't in the other thread amd you still.cant now
>>20685885
>will without cause and effect isn't will at all
Exactly

>>20685874
hahahah i am joking about the reptilians btw

dont really care either, just taking the opportunity to have fun and spread the word

>>20685875
>>20685877
>>20685885
>>20685887
who is for what here now?

just smoke weed idk

>>20685893
That's not the argument being made, though. The argument is that if you're already pre-programmed to choose something over something else, are conditioned throughout your life for certain choices, and are metaphysically limited in your choices by time/location/information, then how is that "free" at all? You get to "choose" the path of least resistance that fits the neurons formed because that's how you're wired. It's like water flowing downstream, it doesn't choose to suddenly go back up the mountain, it can't. It's stuck always taking the path of least resistance.

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The midwit thinks something isn't real because he named through bunch of hieroglyps and syllabes the process of how csomething comes to be, and he suddenly feels smart and removed all the magic out the miracle, thinking he understands the truth of the process because of the name he gave to it, as if naming gave understanding or canceled the result of said process

>trees are not real, they just grow from seeds, genetics and water

+1 ego point for the midwit !

omg guys i just gave an operational definition of free will that makes it impossible to exist in any conceivable universe.
free will doesnt exist becuase i know what free will looks like even though it doesnt exist.

>>20685772
if free will doesn't exist then moral choice doesn't exist
if moral choice doesn't exist, there man cannot be immoral
if immorality doesn't exist, then me correctively raping you until you admit free will exists isn't wrong
by this method, all determinists are now pro free will.

>>20685699
If you had free will, you would be able to see the valid arguments against it.

>>20685899
>free willers
>lol you really don't think people have the ability to act at their own discretion?
>what a free willer clown
the absolute state of NPCs

>>20685902
>free will must not exist then if we cant define it
Clearly you can't define and are only replying to other replies. Meaning they caused you to reply

omg guys i just made a huge assumption based on theory of mind and applied it to my research.
free will doesnt exist.

>things only exist if you can measure them
Just wait until you learn about quantum physics. OP is retarded.

>>20685896
my favorite thing to do is piss off kikes like you
the cause of this preference is all the millenia of crimes the kikes have committed against the white race, the consequence (so far) of your kike crimes is me making you seethe right now
the consequence of your seetheposts, which i have caused, is me smiling right now

>>20685910
you really think*

>>20685903
omg guys free will doesnt equal free energy so free will doesnt exist.

>>20685907
>>20685912
Demonstrate a will free from cause and a effect

>>20685909
I'm at two weeks of nofap

>>20685908
>if free will doesn't exist then moral choice doesn't exist
wrong. it's the exact opposite

>>20685908
I know there's only 15 or 16 true determinists on Earth but that's still a significant amount of raping to eradicate the philosophy. What happens when you die? Who will rape future determinists in your stead to maintain the institutions of Free Will?

>>20685909
heeey you actually touched a good point

doubting free will, proves free will

dubito ergo sum

>>20685911
oh yeah baby i loved your based and twink like understanding of cause and effect.
im almost there bby. talk more about cause and effect my lack of free will is making me cum loads to cause and effect.

>>20685905
>you're already pre-programmed to choose something over something else
Proof?

>you have fucking preferences!
That doesn't mean you're prearranged to choose anything. Preferences are just one factor.

>>20685699
You will do what your free will commands you whether you like it or not

>>20685922
>can't refute
I know thats why you put on an act instead of actually arguing.

>>20685914
omg guys i want to pwn the kikes
free will doesnt exist.
omg we have kikes instead of free will how could this be?

>>20685922
oh, you didn't know? if your action has an effect then you didn't will it. i learned this in free will 101

>>20685923
>>you're already pre-programmed to choose something over something else
>Proof?
You deciding to reply ITT instead of doing something else

>>20685924
>billions must freely choose, disregarding of all causality or consequences

>>20685899
free will just means you can choose to act however you want, it doesn't mean you can choose what you want, because if you could, then you wouldn't want anything at all

it is under partial influence, thus not completely free, but it doesn't mean you have 0 control either

you can kys right now for 0 reason so obviously genetics are not ruling you, you just don't xant to because you think you can have some good times from staying alive and you enjoy good times, which does undermine free will

some people kys despite knowing they could stay alive and have good times. people can choose pain or refuse dopamine willingly

>>20685917
more bby
im so close
tell me more about cause and effect.
better yet tell me the same thing about cause and effect
i fucking love it when you talk cause and effect becuase i have no free will

>>20685927
>if your action has an effect then you didn't will it
Why did you make the action to begin with?

>>20685699
Everything you are is a product of your genetics and upbringing. You don't choose where you're born, you don't choose your parents, you don't choose your sex, you don't choose whether or not you're defective or gifted, whether you're abused or spoiled or raised with care, etc. And the people who brought you into this world didn't choose, and the people before them, so on and so on. It's a big chain of dominoes stretching back to the beginning of life in the universe. Whether or not you grow up to be a death row inmate or a billionaire is completely out of your control. The concept that people have free will is kind of like karma, it's a nice idea that people want to believe in because the alternative is upsetting. Humans hate the idea of an unfair, random world.

>>20685917
>>Demonstrate that you can move around if time is frozen
>heh, you can’t? then this means you can’t move lol
Stupid argument.

>>20685917
Free will is about information complexity (aka entropy), not cause and effect.

>>20685931
>tell me more about cause and effect
You just proved it again. Thanks :^)

>>20685906
>they didn't respond because i spoke the truth
as usual

>>20685933
>Everything you are is a product of your genetics and upbringing.
Proof?

>>20685925
omg guys i pwned this guy becuase hes replying to my bullshit mcguffin about cause and effect.
give me your phd thesis on cause and effect
i cant hold back much longer bby.

>>20685933
you are an only child arent you?

really easy to tell

>>20685910
How about this then, try to do something for absolutely no reason and post the results.

>>20685923
Sorry, you're already out of the race after you admitted free-will doesn't exist here >>20685859

anyone know what the conseqquences of taking the vaccine are?
did the people who took it know what the consequences were?
had they known would they have taken it?
since causality doesn't exist then why are people who took the vaccine suddenly dying everywhere?
what caused them to take the vaccine?
what was the consequence that was the sword of damocles hung over their heads that caused them to take it?

>>20685934
Nice strawman. Come back when younhave an actual rebuttal
>>20685935
>Free will is about information complexity
Give an example that excludes cause and effect

Can't exist in a deterministic world.
Your "decisions" are made based on external stimuli and your brains calculations.
You have as much free will as a calculator.

>>20685932
sometimes because i chose to, whether it be for my benefit, someone else's benefit, to challenge myself, because i want to see what happens, etc.

not an argument against the existence of free will

>>20685939
>becuase hes replying
Cause and effect strikes again :^)

>>20685704

>>>/wsg/5603422

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>>20685935
To be fair it's more about humans inability to process complexity beyond certain limitations (i.e. the thing that makes games with spheres fun).

If only we had something smarter than us that could help.

>>20685936
omg i have no free will becuase cause and effdct.
youre replies cause my effect of replying back which causes you to reply but the onus is on me becuase free will doesnt exist

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>>20685933
you dont choose you cards but you choose what to do with them in the realm of your knowledge

just because you run on limited knowledge doesnt cancel the freedom you have inside the knowledge you have, as you re not all knowing, but you are not completely ignorant either

you re thinking in absolutes like the midwit you are. bow before my intellectual might

>t's a nice idea that people want to believe in because the alternative is upsetting.
Just say that you get an ego kick from pretending that you understand it all so you srttle with your current opinion as the ultimate one

>>20685942
>you're already pre-programmed to choose something over something else
Proof?

>you have fucking preferences!
That doesn't mean you're prearranged to choose anything. Preferences are just one factor.

when you grow up with siblings, you get to see free will in action

maybe being an only child is kind of a disability

>>20685949
>To be fair it's more about humans inability to process complexity beyond certain limitations
Proof?

>>20685941
ok. or maybe i won't. I haven't decided yet

>>20685945
omg your brain is just a computer.
your mind is just a terminak for the user no free will.

>>20685920
We must form a determinist-rape guild, so that father can pass down the craft to his sons. Together, we can maintain the sanctity of free will forever.

>>20685946
>because i chose to, whether it be for my benefit, someone else's benefit
A cause
>because i want to see what happens, etc?
And effect
>not an argument against the existence of free will
Your will is based on cause and effect. Your "free will" extends just as long as a slaves chains

>>20685945
wrong. i have no compulsion to do what is optimized and i just choose to do so with my own accord

in fact i make wrong moves knowingly all the fucking times

answer sincerely

how many of you "there is no free will" people, are "only child"s ?

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>>20685952
Repeat it all you like, but you're done here >>20685859

>>20685958
why does cause and effect disprove free will?

>>20685950
>omg i have no free will becuase cause and effdct
And here I go causing you to reply again :^)

>>20685947
cause and effect exists so no free will
but free will wouldnt exist in a a causal universe so no free will.
ahh hes replying to my replies which causes me to reply.
no free will.

>>20685699
We do what we will but cannot will what we will.

>>20685699
Free will doesn't exist because God exists.
Everything you've ever done is a cause and effect chain reaction that started long long before your birth.
Otherwise God could be omniscient and say what will happen in the future.

>>20685930
>you can kys right now for 0 reason

How?

>>20685945
>Can't exist in a deterministic world.
Prove that determinism is true.

>Your "decisions" are made based on external stimuli and your brains calculations.
Prove this claim.

I think there is direct correlation between this free will debate bullshit, and being an only child

people with siblings dont even debate free will

>>20685956
it is very much not a computer, all the midwits are waking up when they get access to a few bits of knowledge, shut the fuck up already and get a slave job

>>20685962
Define free will

>>20685965
>We do what we will but cannot will what we will.
Proof?

>>20685963
he still chose to.

>>20685702
>Town rapist IQ

>>20685963
you clearly have a mastery of cause and effect.
i applaud your dick sucking skills faggot.

>>20685971
the ability to act at ones own discretion

>>20685951
>you dont choose you cards but you choose what to do with them in the realm of your knowledge
what you choose to do with them is determined by your preferences, which were caused by your past experiences (and genetics), and the consequences of what will happen when you make your choice
>i have to take a shit, because causality doesn't exist and the food i ate earlier isn't coming out my ass right now
>because i have free will i will shit the bed instead of the toilet and face no consequences
>why does my bed suddenly smell like shit? oh well, at least i have free will

>>20685973
Because I caused him too. Free will isn't hinged on the ability to make a choice but why the choice is made and th3 consequences that inevitably happen regardless

>>20685962
Effectively, it means that you don't have control over all the causes in your life, which means you end up with effects you had no say in, which ultimately shapes how you behave. Compound them over the course of someone's life, and "free will" ends up as an illusion of infinitely complex causes creating your free will as the effect.

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Faggots, I thing therefor I am. //end of
>captcha YGAY

>>20685976
But your discretion is based on a series of choices lead by cause and effect

>>20685933
Nobody who believes in free will believes that you have free will in the past or future, bozo, the past and future is obviously out of your control. Why should this mean that you don’t have control in the present?
>brain is in a particular state in the present caused by actions in the past
And? That doesn’t prove anything.

>>20685960
5 siblings, go fuck yourself, retard

>>20685978
he caused himself to by choosing to do it. you weren't the determining factor of his action.

>>20685975
>you clearly have a mastery of cause and effect
I have a mastery if making you reply. Watch this: You will either reply to this again or you won't. Let's see your freedom now :^)

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>>20685954
I guess... I don't have any proof. I just like playing pool and find sphere-physics games to be entertaining. Do you enjoy football?

>>20685979
you don't choose everything you do =\= you can't choose anything you do

>>20685984
>he caused himself to by choosing to do it.
He wouldn't have if I didn't reply . That's why his reply is tailored to my response

>>20685974
You are seething with rage, meanwhile every objective fact about my life shows that I am more intelligent that 99.99% of the niggers in your country.

>>20685977
you re just talking about acquiring knowledge, you re not debunking what is said. knowledge is not set in stone, you can learn and you can forget

>
>i have to take a shit, because causality doesn't exist and the food i ate earlier isn't coming out my ass right now
you re mistaking being able to choose and omnipotence. also you can shit yourself instead of going to the toilets, if you really want to, some people do it actually

>>20685989
>meanwhile every objective fact about my life shows that I am more intelligent that 99.99% of the niggers in your country
If that were true then you wouldn't need to filter IDs supposedly

>>20685981
>your discretion is based on a series of choices
choice doesn't exist if there's no free will

>>20685944
My “strawman” is a valid criticism of your argument. Free will fundamentally relies on cause and effect - this is the nature of our universe. When I go to bed tonight, I will wake up tomorrow in the same bed - I won’t wake up on fucking Mars now, will I?

>>20685988
that doesn't mean he COULDN'T have

>>20685986
I just find it kinda funny how on one hand you try to support your position by appealing to humanity's limitations when it comes to complexity and on the other hand, you take it on faith that the simplistic abstractions humanity came up with to try to deal with that complexity, are all exactly representative of metaphysical truths behind reality.

>>20685699
Probably because you are a retard from a third world country. Listen, all behavior is a determined by your environment acting upon your genes. In other words there is not a single action you could take that wasn't predetermined by your 'coding'. In other words, you have no free will, you are a slave of your outcome. It's not worth discussing further than that though or people who don't understand it all will start making excuses for criminals and niggers.

>>20685983
well, maybe the excess siblings made you have a craving for attention, as you where most likely ignored as a child

balanced mentally healthy people, never even doubt free will, only people that grew up in troubled households

I am sorry for your traumatic upbringing anon

I see you use the "there is no free will" cope because its the only mechanism of forgiveness your mind was able to develop

and thats ok

you are valid, loved, and accepted

>>20685990
>some people do it actually
and they have to face the consequences of it, them choosing to do it isn't free will, it's merely the consequence of whatever the fuck fucked up their brains

>>20685992
choice can only exist without completley free will because there would be no reason to make a choice otherwise, you d just choose randomly (which you can already do : 46 or blue?). Choosing randomly kinda removes the point of choosing despite still being a choice. Acting randomly isnt much different from being unconcious, chaos acts randomly too.

>>20685987
Effectively, yes, it does. Regardless of where you are on the nature vs nurture scale, you still end up with that reality that there are incredibly high numbers of factors that shaped you, and whatever you "choose" will always be the result of all of those factors, because that's what you are in reality. I mean, you could go out tomorrow and go "I'll take a left turn today because I choose to not go right for once", and it won't be your choice, it will be the fact you came into this thread (with all the factors that put you there) and saw these posts and they made your choice for you.

>>20685992
>choice doesn't exist if there's no free will
Demonstrate a choice free from its effects and made without cause
>>20685993
>My “strawman” is a valid criticism of your argument
No? You made up something I didn't say
>Free will fundamentally relies on cause and effect - this is the nature of our universe
No? It's bound by cause and effect. And something bound isn't truly free
>>20685994
But he didn't because he had a cuase not too

>>20685992
choice exists, you choose what consequences you prefer to face with every action you take, including the act of making a choice, even not making a choice has consequences, inaction is still an action

>>20685996
>all behavior is a determined by your environment acting upon your genes
Proof?

>>20685994
there's no such thing as the future.

there's the present, and there's the past -- a series of memories of presents that have elapsed.

the future is a theoretical concept derived from the assumption that the past will continue to be generated in memory. all imaginings of the future "could have done X, could have done Y" are hallucinations of a pattern recognition system built on memories of past presents.

since only the present exists, everything that happens is the only thing that COULD have happened despite your ability to make a reasonable hallucination about something else having happened by using memory information.

if you remove your memory by somehow finding the part of your brain where memory is stored or getting alzheimers or something, you will also lose your ability to make future predictions and your sense of "making choices"