Its the only religion totally made up by openly criminals, terrorists, rapists, pedophiles, liars who are proud of that behavior. You can go to Catholic Spain, Protestant Germany or Orthodox Russia and find a noble religious life not affecting others.You go to Muslim world and you only find terrorists and criminals.
>>16887776>Islam is barbaricCorrect.>Christians are peaceful Wrong.
It's abrahamic.Christianity is no better and neither is jewry.Dogshit cults with their origins in the minds of inbred mentally ill jews.
>>16887776Countries like Syria have pagan/Christian governments.The Muslim countries are generally prosperous and rich (Iraq pre-Gulf War included)
Idk, I hate my people like you wouldn't believe..
I’d imagine being Muslim in a Muslim country is a very paranoid existence. Your neighbor could just say you’re an apostate and then you’re on the back foot. God help you if your neighbor knows the local judges
>>16887850>I’d imagine being Muslim in a Muslim country is a very paranoid existence.Unlike living in a "first world country" where niggers can stab you in an alleyway or women can say you raped them and put you in jail for multiple years.
>>16887882Both of those things can and do happen in Muslim countries
>>16887776Islam's evil can endure through many strategies including:>reading constantly about tortures in hellfire and how human beings are terrible IS going to affect your psyche in a certain direction>make everyone suffer as much as possible so that the inevitable blacklash against you gets misconstrued as oppression>make your own followers dumber than they are through brainwashing, inbreeding, fear, lack of sleep, stress etc>once we unify (subjugate) the world with our simplistic doctrine that no one sane would criticize we can finally care about developing higher morals (because of course we'll care about it, you must trust me)>x thing is good, if we associate islam with x islam becomes good>only we understand how bad things really are (Hell, end times, Dajjal etc) therefore any harm we do is insignificant compared to what we're "fighting">don't expose your brothers' sins, so no problem gets solved>anything is justified if you do it for the benefit of islam>the Quran cleverly assigns muslims' faulty behaviors to non-muslimsFurthermore, the Quran gives you the impression that>the most perfect being is a grandiose overt narcissist>lack of originality is good>you can't actually help other people>your ultimate aim is to experience earthly pleasures>it's good to be lazy and primitive (everyone is born a muslim, Allah is in control of everything etc)You can see it when you debate with them, they have five year-old brains, they don't understand any point you make and when they do they pretend they don't. Islam is at the most perfectly calculated intersection of sophisticated cunning and brute retardation. It is harmful by design and it makes people stupid by design.>>16887803>Christianity is no betterPeople like you deserve to be thrown in muslim countries and left there for ten years. We'll see if you still think the same way after that.
>>16887882>Unlike living in a "first world country" where niggers can stab you in an alleywayAnd what religion do these foreign gentlemen come from? Mostly Islam.
>>16887937>>your ultimate aim is to experience earthly pleasuresand watch other people burn*
>>16887937It’s the xenomorph of religions
Sometimes I miss being a Muslim. The ability to turn off your brain and go full durka with the brothers is awesome when you see it. Sitting around after prayer discussing how to build up the Muslim community. Fire of Iman for sure
>>16888079Building up the muslim community is equivalent to destroying humanity. The reason muslims are sometimes carefree among each other is precisely because they don't experience the hassle of pondering over morals.
>>16888084Well from the Muslim perspective we’re doing a service to humanity by implementing Islam. If kuffar want to get in the way by all means, the brothers will push back and move you.
>>16888085>Well from the Muslim perspective we’re doing a service to humanity by implementing IslamI know the muslim perspective very well, I too used to turn off my brain and worship the devil. That's why I can dissect islam well enough >>16887937
>>16888088Mur’ted I’m guessing? Hope you got out without too much hassle. The few people that I told were all very understanding but I was careful
>>16888099Ex-convert, but thankfully I was too autistic and instinctively repulsed by the muslim crowd that I never actually bothered to go to a mosque (I live in the countryside of a non-muslim country so there's not a lot of them in my area). I still wrote islamic propaganda for many years including on this website (I hate to think that I might have influenced someone to go for islam). My conversion wasn't on a whim, I genuinely thought the Quran was the truth from God, and I would make tons of justifications and argumets for every issue that could be raised like a fucking lawyer. I went back and forth between traditionalism and quranism for a long time, I was always in the "all muslims should be united" gang. Now I realize islam is designed to guilt-trip and manipulate well-meaning people like me. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
>>16887776I wonder when you'll get bored of your hourly Islam seethe threads getting like 30 replies before dying.
>>16888112Hey man your story rhymes with mine. I was looking to fill the “god shaped hole” took my copy of the Quran off the shelf during Covid and was hooked. I had a mosque near me and when I converted quickly got to work running the food pantry. I went through the same lawyer phase, hell I know more about Christianity/islam than most people I know. Ultimately my deconversion came down to slavery, which I despise, and beating your wife, which is so short sighted it couldn’t have come from God.I have mercy on the Muslims though. Mostly good people trapped in a bad system, a system with its ossification built in.
>>16888116The islamophobing will continue until morale improves.
>>16888120Having mercy for ignorant muslims is one thing. I have none for islam itself, sheikhs, ulemas etc.
>>16887809be careful, you may activate the Assad curse.
Christians had centuries of peacefully spreading their message, polishing it's theology and they only went full retard when Roman emperors and illiterate barbarian kings used it to further their political power. At it's core, it's still a religion of peace and brotherhood and anyone can follow the ideas of St. Augustine for example cause they're so universal.Meanwhile, Islam was born out of conquest and war so it's logical that the core of the religion is barbaric and savage.
>>16888131Oh yeah for sure. There’s definitely that moment where you stare into the void of Islam and it’s up to you to blink. Have mercy for them too, even if they don’t deserve it
>>16888219The problem is that they perceive mercy as a weakness and a reason to continue their attempts to conquer the world.
>>16888228That’s the bitch of mercy isn’t it? Even if they’re upholding a horrible system they’re still deserving of mercy
>>16888252Yes, my mercy being summary execution instead of agony and torture.
>>16887937Read a history book.Parts of the Islamic world were secularizing.Christianity was neutered by the Enlightenment.Secularism, enlightenment, and overprivileging of the discursive mind have problems too.Everything is a double edged sword in life.Your brain has rotted from memes.Philosophical criticism should be separated from social concerns, and everything should be conveyed in a courteous tone.
>>16887776>Why is Islam so barbaric, obscurantist, backward and savage?There is no separation of mosque and state as with Christianity ("render unto Caesar") which means religion is either beholden to the state or religion controls the state and this traps Muslims in an assbackward medieval world while their neighbors continue to advance civilization, which pisses off Muslims to they attack their neighbors and try to drag them down into their assbackward medieval world (crabs in a bucket).But technology is putting an end to Islam (and religion in general) which is why Muslims are lashing out in a final frenzy of violence, because you can't keep 'em down on the farm.
>>16887776>You go to Muslim world and you only find terrorists and criminals.You haven't stepped into a SINGLE Muslim country so shut the hell up kike
>>16888112I will presume your understanding of Quran was superficial, and your picking on Quranism was based on emotions. You still view the book through the lenses of traditionalists. >>16888120>slaverythoroughly eradicated by Quran, then revived by Arabs after Muhammad's death by developing a whole new legal system>beating your wife"...but if they change their ways, do not be unjust to them." [4:34] The goal isn't even to hurt them, it's to put down an Amber Heard type partner who keeps trashing the peace in the family and refuses to reason verbally. Tell me why you sympathize with these scummy human beings and not with the poor husband instead? And what would you do in this situation, considering neither side seeks divorce? Just let her do whatever she wills? In other verses men are told to treat women with kindness and not hurt them, so perhaps this is a rare case where violence is called for? It's easy to criticize other people when you are not in their shoes. Now i wouldn't hit my wife but i also wouldn't flinch if an abusive and obdurate wife got a much delayed slap. Same story for men, although rarer.
average indian muslim
>>16887776That's a propaganda pushed by the Vatican catholic church.Vatican catholic church and their constant religious wars is the least peaceful group on the planet, BTW.All religions / cults are Divide & Conquer tools by the elites to divide you into small countries / regions , to conquer you and to make you fight their religious wars while they rule over you.
>>16887937>and how human beings are terribleThis is the #1 brainwash of the vatican catholic church. Which is their favorite blame / shaming tactic?>You are sinner and you have sinned
>>16887776>Its the only religion totally made up by openly criminals, terrorists, rapists, pedophiles, liars who are proud of that behavior.Evangelicals Christians exist. >You can go to Catholic Spain, Protestant Germany or Orthodox Russia and find a noble religious life not affecting others.Go to America and you find people trying to bring about the end times and see all of humanity enslaved by a evil dictator.
>>16888390Are you a bot or a real poster? Because nothing you wrote made any sense.
>>16887803>Dogshit cults with their origins in the minds of inbred mentally ill jewsspbp
>>16888830>I will presume Why should I care what a retard like you presumes about me?
>>16887776just a reminder that when iberia was ruled by Muslims, Christians and jews could live therewhen it was reclaimed by Christians, no Muslim or jew remainedIslam gave women rights 1300 years earlier than the westIslam even is more tolerant of homosexuality than Christianity or secular west is; there's a reason why queers for Palestine is a thing
>>16888830>thoroughly eradicated by QuranWe both know you're lying (as all muslims are), but go on, provide the verse you claim "eradicated" slavery.>it's to put down an Amber Heard type partner who keeps trashing the peace in the family and refuses to reason verballyNo, it tells you to hit them if you fear ill-conduct from them. A mere suspicion is enough to justify beating them, and muslim men didn't need to get told twice.
>>16889885That is all past tense though. Nobody educated would deny that for a big stretch of history the Islamic world was more developed, progressive and tolerant. But it's the same as pointing to the Crusades to make the case that modern Christianity is just as violent. Christianity secularized, Islam still has not. Which isn't to say that Christianity secularized because of any virtue inherent in the religion or its followers, most of the Christian conservatives who get hung up on debating Muslims today would've been fighting in the Vendee or whining about suffragettes had they been born at a different time and place. And it's also not to say that Islam hasn't secularized because of anything inherent to Islam, look at Turkey or Albania or a lot of the diaspora communities in the US and it's obvious that can happen. It was happening a lot more broadly in the early 20th century and I think it is still going on today despite all the dawahbro bluster about Islam being the last "traditional" religion standing.But there is a reason people see Islam as worse than other religions and history isn't necessarily super relevant to that.
>>16889885Read The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise. It was written for lying faggots like you.>Islam gave women rights 1300 years earlier than the westLol.>Islam even is more tolerant of homosexuality than Christianity or secular west is; there's a reason why queers for Palestine is a thingLol.
>>16889894Can't bother listing every single verse, will paraphrase instead. Quran didn't outlaw slavery at once since Muhammad didn't possess the influence, but instead aimed to lessen it gradually, in the same manner as alcohol. It did so by forbidding taking of new slaves, labeling freeing of slaves as one of the core requirements of righteousness, repeated calls for emancipation, making it compulsory to free a slave for expiations, and when the time was right ordering all Muslims to release any slave who wished to be freed. No one, not even the staunchest Salafi who argues for the sake of slavery, would deny that there were significantly less slaves in Medina when Muhammad parted from it as opposed to when he first arrived. How exactly do you "suspect" ill-conduct as if it's a sudden assasination attempt. All Arabic speakers already understand that fear here is synonymous with anticipation, and the rest of the verse confirms that this "fear" is actualized. (Fyi there's also a verse speaking of a woman fearing ill-conduct by her husband.) And even if this fear was unfounded, you are supposed to talk to them first and give them time, and only finally you may take action till they desist from their guilt.
>>16890374>forbidding taking of new slavesWhere...?>labeling freeing of slaves as one of the core requirements of righteousnessEvidently this was wholly ineffective on islamic history. Even now they're still the most slavery-practicing community.>repeated calls for emancipationOnly like 6 or 7 times, mostly for expiating sins. Some would argue that you're supposed to have slaves because freeing them is a way of expiating your sins, since the Quran's economic worldview is that of a pastoral slave-holding society.>when the time was right ordering all Muslims to release any slave who wished to be freedLie by omission. The verse says to be free them if they ask AND you recognize good in them. Who says you're obligated to recognize good in them? How the fuck do you imagine slavery endured for so long in the muslim world and is still justified by muslims on the internet?>No one, not even the staunchest Salafi who argues for the sake of slavery, would deny that there were significantly less slaves in Medina when Muhammad parted from it as opposed to when he first arrived.Islam created far more slaves in the long run.>Fyi there's also a verse speaking of a woman fearing ill-conduct by her husbandYeah and it just says the two should reconcile lol. She would have trouble doing beating him, given how unhealthy and obese muslim women tend to be.>And even if this fear was unfounded, you are supposed to talk to them first and give them time, and only finally you may take action till they desist from their guilt.So you do admit it can be based on unfounded fear? Good, we're making progress.
>>16890776She would have trouble beating him*
>>16890776>Islam created far more slaves in the long run.And this fact is directly related to the islamic view that muslims are better that non-muslims whom the Quran says are the worst of creation and are going to Hell forever. It's easy to justify enslaving people when you dehumanize them.
>>16887776Han Chinese incel known as Chinkspammer made this thread and >>16888837 >>16889629
>>16890909Didn't know the Chinese were this based.
>>16890776>Where?47:4 orders release of war captives, which was the main way slaves were acquired. Unless you think the verse was abrogated after the first time?>This was wholly ineffective on islamic historyQuran's purpose is to deliver God's message to mankind, whether they abide by it or not is up to them.>Only like 6 or 7 timesTwice would be more than enough for a listening person, considering it's literally God speaking... >Mostly for expiating sinsRegardless, it could have told sinners to just pray for forgiveness, instead it forced them towards this specific charitable deed (alongside feeding poor people). >You're supposed to have slavesMight as well claim you are supposed to have poor people because their feeding is also a way... Quran tries to remove this misery, not cause it. In other verses a person who are unable to fulfill these deeds are asked to fast or pray instead, to solve your dilemma. >Who says you're obligated to recognize good in them?Recognition as in subconscious realization, not official public declaration.>Islam created far more slaves in the long runWhose Islam? The one Muhammad brought or the one the Arab and Persian scholars developed after his demise? For all i care Quran was a net positive to the slavery issue, while Sunni legislation reset the clock. If you put forth the argument that God didn't preserve His religion that would be another story.Think that's enough greentext? I will give it to you senpai, you have done your homework. I can't imagine investing so much time into something i hate though, you probably made all this research while still religious which proves that converts know more than born Muslims kek.
>>16891198>47:4 orders release of war captives, which was the main way slaves were acquired. That's what quranists claim and I'll grant that it appears to make sense, assuming the Quran cannot contradict itself (which remains to be proven). However, quranists' opinion is irrelevant for practical purposes, you don't rule Islam, and it is only thanks to modern western freedom of speech and technology that you're even capable of raising your voice among muslims.>Unless you think the verse was abrogated after the first time?Sunnis interpret things differently. Sunni opinions are what matters because they are those who rule Islam.>Twice would be more than enough for a listening person, considering it's literally God speaking...I don't know, the Quran says dozens upon dozens of times that the Bible is preserved and quranists still haven't got the memo.>Recognition as in subconscious realization, not official public declaration.So how do you do that with disbelieving slaves? Remember, we're the worst of creation, worse than animals, and we deserve an eternity in Hell. To see good in us would be to contradict the word of your god.>For all i care Quran was a net positive to the slavery issue, while Sunni legislation reset the clockDoesn't that suggest some deficiency on the Quran's part, that it can so easily fall into the wrong hands and be so severely misinterpreted?
>>16891198But anyway you could still acquire slaves by buying them, not just warfare. The quranist logic doesn't seem to address that.
>>16887776The entire Islamic world was colonized by European powers since 1800. Since the latter half of the 19th century, Muslims have suffered multiple genocides and ethnic cleansing attempts including Palestine, Bosnia, the Rohingya, the Ugyhur people, etc. Muslim majority countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Yemen have witnessed untold destruction at the hands of ongoing Western imperialism. The Islamic world has been positively fucked up over the last two centuries. And you're fucking surprised some Muslims themselves are violent?
>>16891429If they had only recently became violent sure, but they've been forcing themselves onto others since Muhammad walked out of that cave.
>>16891450You could say the same of any civilization in the whole world if your timescale goes back to the seventh century
>>16891429>Muslims have suffered multiple genocides and ethnic cleansing attemptsSince islam itself is a giant ethnic cleansing attempt to remove any trace of non-arab identity from the world, it's fair game.Compare with the way Japan, a pagan country, reacted to two atomic bombs and being subjugated by America. Japanese people aren't known to kill, rape, steal, act entitled and cause all sorts of problems literally everywhere they go. Muslims react like this because their civilization's main emotion is pride and arrogance.
>>16891458Sure, but one of them is a threat to me in a way that the Mongol Empire, for example, isn't.
>>16891459>Since islam itself is a giant ethnic cleansing attempt to remove any trace of non-arab identity from the worldExcept... it isn't. Islam is followed by Albanians, Tatars, Malays, etc. who have nothing more in common with Arabic culture than Finns, Filipinos or Peruvians have with Greco-Roman culture.
>>16891469How exactly is Islam a threat to you in compared to how whatever country you live in might be a threat to countries with Muslim majorities?
>>16891470>Islam is followed by Albanians, Tatars, Malays, etc. who have nothing more in common with Arabic cultureCome on, they all dress and speak the same way and spit some arabic every other sentence. Not to say anything of the gradual extermination of christians and jews in their lands.
>>16891485>Come on, they all dress and speak the same wayNo they fucking don't, are you literally retarded?
>>16891490>are you literally retarded?You are.
>>16891490Even now there are muslims speaking arabic in my street, in a non-muslim country.
>>16891485>Not to say anything of the gradual extermination of christians and jews in their landsChristians and Jews objectively fared far better historically under Islamic rule than Muslims or Jews did under Christian rule
>>16891495Because those people are probably Arabs, go to Albania or Indonesia and try speaking Arabic to the locals, you probably won't get very far
>>16891496>Christians and Jews objectively fared far better historically under Islamic rule than Muslims or Jews did under Christian ruleWhat a fucking retarded statement.1: christianity is illegal in all muslim countries in which a christian is not free to convert a muslim to christiniaty. This means christians in the true sense of the word are basically outlawed in all muslim countries except two.2: Jews lived fine in Europe most of the time, nowadays Mein Kampf is a bestseller in muslim countries.3: the entire islamic history from the very beginning is filled with pogroms and all kinds of atrocities against christians, if you don't know about it, open a fucking history book. When did christians sodomize muslims? Because that's the kind of shit muslims did to christians before the First Crusade, which happened way later than it should have.4: read the doctrines of islam and realize you simply do not have the right to trust them to not start shit. They definitely take your goodness as weakness to be exploited and abused, that's how it always went historically and that's how they act right now in the West.Now stop lying about history.
>>16891517>christianity is illegal in all muslim countriesNo it isn't, many majority Muslim countries like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine etc. have significant historically established Christian minorities. Historically, the dhimmi status given to Christians and Jews in Muslim states was not ideal, but far better the comparative treatment Muslim or Jewish minorities might have expected in most Christian states during the same time period. For example, the outright extirpation of Islam in Southern Italy in the Middle Ages and in Spain and Portugal during the 15th and 16th centuries, and the many expulsions and exclusions of Jews from Christian states during the same time period. >Jews lived fine in Europe most of the time, nowadays Mein Kampf is a bestseller in muslim countriesSee said expulsions/exclusions, also the whole history of modern racial anti-semitism being entirely of European origin, Also funny you should mention Mein Kampf considering it was written in central Europe and not some "Muslim country".> he entire islamic history from the very beginning is filled with pogroms and all kinds of atrocities against christiansWhere exactly does the world "pogrom" originate from?>They definitely take your goodness as weakness to be exploited and abusedThe whole idea of "might makes right" and "survival of the fittest" are products of 19th century European philosophy and unfortunately still impact us today
>>16891544>No it isn't, many majority Muslim countries like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine etc. have significant historically established Christian minorities. Historically, the dhimmi status given to Christians and Jews in Muslim states was not ideal, but far better the comparative treatment Muslim or Jewish minorities might have expected in most Christian states during the same time period. For example, the outright extirpation of Islam in Southern Italy in the Middle Ages and in Spain and Portugal during the 15th and 16th centuries, and the many expulsions and exclusions of Jews from Christian states during the same time period.Ok at this stage you're not even pretending to read what I write.
>>16891567What you wrote was ignorant and retarded so there wasn't much to read and reply to in the first place
>>16891544>Historically, the dhimmi status given to Christians and Jews in Muslim states was not ideal, but far better the comparative treatment Muslim or Jewish minorities might have expected in most Christian states during the same time period.Sure it was, but we cannot pretend that it was good by liberal standards of religious tolerance, nor can we believe that it exists for the same reason that today's belief in tolerance does. I thin this is important to mention every time it's brought because Muslims and academics interested in defending them are deeply interested in whitewashing second-class citizenship.
>>16888120If you look at historical context. Islam support gradual revolution. Slavery, polygamy and stuff is not promoted but restricted. Pre Islamic Arabia used to polygamy unlimited then Islam came restricted to 4. God even recommended to marry one to be just and fair. It is gradual revolution. Slavery is restricted. And freeing slaves is encouraged. You can see from the law itself. learn law and historical context. Prophet companion still drink alcohol until just before prophet death. Its gradual process. You interpret Qur'an like Salafist. By doing Literalism and textualist. No wonder you leave Islam. Textualist and literalist approach to Islam always in minority. Majority reconciled reason with revelation. They use reason derive from the text. Looking at historical context and see what can be applied to modern context. The spirit of the law itself is very important. Saudi Arabia is not representing all of Muslim. They are hanbali school which birth ibn taimiyyah and Abdul Wahhab. These school always in minority in all of islamic history in background till oil money came. Its Account for 5% of all Muslim population today. They are the strictest,most textualist and literalist of them all but even them opposed slavery. Nowadays Salafist view is being promoted worldwide. What you see as real Islam is not really it. They rejected tassawuf or Sufism which already integrated into classical mainstream Muslim in the past.. Only in modern time that Muslim rejected that cause of oil money from Salafi propaganda. dancing, music, singing always be used n spreading Islam. Sufism is heart and soul of Islam. Cause of them people in central Asia, sub Saharan Africa,south east asia convert to Islam. They even play Shadow puppet in Indonesia to convert them. Salafi rejected tassawuf in turn become souless and heartless. What you see Muslim saying it's wrong to listen to Music. Most of the time these people is getting brainwash by Salafi oil money propaganda
>>16891309>Quranists' opinion is irrelevant for practical purposesBut it's a theoretical discussion, and either way the number of Quranists are rapidly on the rise due to the factors you mentioned as Islam goes through its own Protestant Reformation. You should be happy about it!>Quran says dozens upon dozens of times that the Bible is preservedFor beginners when Quran refers to Bible and Torah and it doesn't mean the physical books which their contemporary followers hold, but the original verses which their prophets revealed at the time. I think the confusion arises from the fact Quran refers to these as "kitab", which is usually erronously translated as book but most often means revelation. Overall Quran neither denies nor confirms Bible's full authencity.> We're the worst of creation[2:62] makes it abundantly clear that you don't have to be a Muslim to be good. All such insults and threats in Quran are targeted towards the evil pagans of Hejaz.>That it can so easily fall into the wrong hands and be so severely misinterpretedThe issue is not with Quran, it's with all the volumnious hadith corpus which overrode Quran's commandments. One urges the freeing of slaves while the other has an entire fiqh section establishing rules for slavery like it's a normal thing.>>16891324You could still acquire slaves by buying themHere's the thing though, not that i condone it but a slave bought was already a slave so nothing changes. There's no one being enslaved.
>>16891573>factual legal truth about christians being able to do the ONE thing their religion requires of them, to share the gospel in order to convert all people including muslimsOnly a hopeless liar would say the truth is ignorant and retarded. Rot in hell scum.
>>16891982>If you look at historical context. Islam support gradual revolution. Slavery, polygamy and stuff is not promoted but restricted. Pre Islamic Arabia used to polygamy unlimited then Islam came restricted to 4. God even recommended to marry one to be just and fair. It is gradual revolution. Slavery is restricted. And freeing slaves is encouragedThe problem with this kind of Karen Armstrong type read on Islam is that Islamic law doesn't believe the sources of law can evolve. The law itself can evolve but only within certain very limited constraints like using analogical reasoning to apply a verdict already present in the Quran and Sunnah to a legal situation not explicitly treated by it. But Quran and Sunnah themselves never cease to be, theoretically, the sole sources of Islamic law. So you're stuck affirming for all time what might have been progressive reform in 7th century Arabia but is reactionary today. There's nothing particularly impressive in the 21st century (or 20th or 19th) about an encouragement to free slaves coupled with an endorsement of the institution of slavery. And when the Islamic world did make the jump to abolition of slavery it was not because of any kind of revolutionary tendency within Islamic law, it was because of Western pressure.
>>16892832Of course this doesn't mean the religion *won't* evolve or that in practice there have never been other sources for Islamic law besides Quran and Sunnah. Once material and economic conditions change to a point where things like slavery, very patriarchal family relations or gruesome corporal punishment aren't profitable or necessary anymore then those things wither away. It's not the case that the intellectual architecture of a religion is what mainly determines how it actually manifests. But there is some influence there and either way it doesn't matter at this stage of history what was progressive for the 7th century.
It cracks me up that Muslims come out of the woodwork to defend slavery and wife beating haha. >mohammed couldn’t outlaw slaveryWhy would he outlaw slavery when he was a slaver himself?
>>16892381>the number of Quranists are rapidly on the rise due to the factors you mentioned as Islam goes through its own Protestant Reformation. You should be happy about it!Yes, but it's not rising fast enough and it will lack political influence until it manages to establish a well-organized doctrine and leadership. Protestantism had a ton of movements that disappeared because they were anarchic like modern quranists are. I would also like for quranists to stop making excuses for traditional islam (I've seen a ton do it and that's what I did when I was a quranist).
>>16892838islam will never evolve because the quran sets muhammad as the best example for mankind as far as ethics and morality is concerned.here is a list of some stuff muhammad did:- he tortured people to force them to reveal hidden treasure- he ordered his gang to torture or assassinate elderly people and little girls because they made fun of him- he legalized wife beating- he legalized raping women and little girls - he legalized slavery- he said camel piss is a medicine- he made extortion money legal [this is essentially what Jizya is]- he made pillaging legal- he made genocide legal when he stated: "I will expel ALL Christians and Jews from the Arabian peninsula and leave none but muslims.
>>16893971You could as easily have said in the 19th century that Catholicism can never reconcile with democracy because they have papal infallibility and this big mass of supposedly infallible proclamations under their belt which their religion forbids ignoring or revising in a radical way. But look at Catholicism from the 1950s on. What a religion teaches on paper, even if on paper certain elements of the teaching are supposed to fixed and unchangeable, does not matter as much as the economic and political environment that the religion exists in.Camel piss and child marriage are actually good examples of this point too, developed areas of the Islamic world marry a lot less young on average and undeveloped areas of the Christian world marry comparably young to undeveloped areas of the Muslim world like Yemen or Afghanistan where child marriage does happen. And I'm not aware of anyone even in very religiously conservative Saudi circles who does more with camel piss than rub it on their hair, a lot of the grosser prophetic medicine is ignored in practice. So you can list all the fucked up things in the Islamic source texts but it's not really relevant. Unless you believe Islam was actually sent by some god or demon then it doesn't have a fixed essence, it's what its followers and history make of it.
>>16894049The fundamental difference between islam and everything else is that islam is obligatory for the whole world. This is unnique in islam. Christianity allows people to choose it. islam is obligatory for muslims as well as non-muslims.
>>16894321That doesn't address my point about ideas vs material conditions at all.
>>16894321It's also not really true, at least not in the sense that you're putting it. Throughout most of Christian history there was no religious tolerance for any other religion besides Jews and even they were routinely expelled and pogromed. "Heretics" and "pagans" were often forced to convert/repent or suffer legal consequences, often death. You can say "but that's not in the New Testament". But even ignoring that we can find it in some of the Fathers like Augustine who wrote about how the state should execute Donatists, it proves my overall point that there is no such thing as an essence or spirit of a religion and that the on paper dogma isn't important compared to what material conditions are driving the religion. It didn't matter what the New Testament said or didn't say about coercion or war, that did not have some deterministic effect on Christian behavior throughout history.
>>16894386And on the Islamic side it's a bit incorrect too. There is no obligation to convert according to Islamic law as long as you're a member of a group considered People of the Book. And People of the Book are allowed to govern themselves according to their own laws except for those instances like public blasphemy against Islam or a crime against a Muslim that impinges on the Muslims. So you can't even totally say that "living under sharia" is held to be universally necessary for People of the Book, it's a decentralized legal system. Again all in theory, which is unimportant. Another example of the same thing is that if you aren't a person of the book, i.e. if you're a "pagan" or atheist, the only options Islamic leaves you are conversion, death or in some cases slavery. But in practice that was often ignored and the category of People of the Book was expanded to include religions like Harranian "paganism" or Hinduism that obviously didn't qualify according to the Quran and hadith themselves. You also had quite a few public figures in the Islamic golden age who were skeptics bordering on atheism like al-Ma'arri and they were not hunted down and killed. So you're wrong about what the letter of the religion even says but it also doesn't matter what it says. Islam could say execute all non-Muslims and this would not be something that locks Muslims into a D&D character class for the rest of human history, the religion would still drop concepts, reinterpret them, change over time etc. All religions do, idealism is retarded.
>>16894389>skeptics bordering on atheism like al-Ma'arri and they were not hunted down and killedYes. That is because islam gets worse as time advances. Don't call it a bug, it's a feature.
>>16887776Race.
>>16887776Hinduism and Cucktianity are worse
>>16895181There are examples of the opposite in the post you're replying to lol but whatever. Idk who's more annoying, the Muslims or you boomers who only talk about Islam because you want people to support Israel or join an evangelical church or go for another war in the mideast or whatever. It is actually an interesting subject but you don't have any thoughts about it, you just soak up Jay Smith and list all the bad things about Islam as if everyone in threads like this isn't already familiar with them.
>>16888120"If you punish an enemy, punish with an equivalent of that which you were harmed. But if you are patient it is better for those who are patient."You can only enslave people if they enslave yours.>>16888120In any society, if a woman commits a crime they are punished with either hittiing or with prison (which is worse because prisons are ducks in a barrel for mass rape if a country is unstable, going through a revolution or being invaded)We may ascertain that Islam allows husbands punishing women in lieu of government punishment.
