Here it is, your moment of zen. US long-range missiles will return to the heartland by 2026. Meanwhile, euros will design and build their own long-range deterrence. The program will be called ELSA (European Long-Range Strike Approach). There are said to be multiple parts.Most specifically, we know of Deep Precision Strike System. This is a ground-launched missile system to hit Moscow and 2000km targets. Euros have wanted their own Typhon for a while. At Eurosatory, MBDA introduced a missile for such a thing.Who is involved: At this week's NATO summit, France + Germany + Italy + Poland signed an MOU. Spain and Sweden might also be interested. The US will deploy Tomahawk and gang to Germany while the eurofrens get their act together.spiegelhttps://archive.is/SO1FSbreakingdefensehttps://archive.is/kMSeM
>>62064312>The world is healing
Test them in Ukraine.
The INF treaty has been doomed for years.It doesn't make sense for the US to handicap themselves in competition with China (that has no such restrictions), in order to make things easier for Russia.What you are seeing now, with Europe and the US intending to deploy medium range Conventional counter force assets, is the rubber finally hitting the road on Russian strategic nuclear decline.Russia has used it's nuclear force inheritance from the USSR to have a greatly outsized geostrategic footprint compared to the actual state of it's economy.Now the period of detente is finally over: the PRC and the US are engaging in full fledged strategic competition with a whole new generation of technology.Russia now needs to recapitalise it's strategic forces, but there is no way it can keep up in technology or scale with the PRC or the US; both entities have economies over five times the size of Russia in terms of purchasing power.The Nuclear war fighting capabilities that Russia enjoyed through last couple of decades are going to be rapidly eroded.Russia regularly uses the threat of fighting (and implicitly winning) a limited nuclear war in order to maintain influence over its periphery.This will be gone over the next two decades, there will be no illusion any more that Russia can win a limited nuclear war.Their strategic forces will be pared back to a deterrent force only, like China was for the last 50 years.The current Russian regime seems determined to deny this static reality, to gamble the fate of the entire Russian nation against it.In the end Gravity always wins.
some potential candidates1) JFS-M (joint fire support-missile) under development by MBDA Germany
2) MdCN adapted for land-land application by MBDA France
3) NSM (naval strike missile) converted for land-land by Kongsberg (big canister in this picture)
4) future 3SM Tyrfing (supersonic strike missile) under development by Kongsberg and some German involvement (Diehl iirc)
WARCRIMEWHY IS EUROPE BULLYING RUSSIA
>>62064580>WHY IS EUROPE BULLYING RUSSIAIs funny
What about Europes Hypersonic Missile program?
>>62064385
>>62064459Too many words. Summarise it for me. TZD?
>>62064601Well France has the VMax HGV, but considering it was launched on an American sounding rocket, we can assume it's pretty far from a fieldable weapon.
>>62064616The US and China are engaging in a missile and missile defense arms race In the Pacific.Russia cannot afford to play this game because they are poor.The only reason they have been peer to the US in strategic nuclear forces is because the US agreed to sit on it's hands after the cold war ended.
>>62064398You wouldn't wanna test them "in" Ukraine because that would mean firing them from Poland or even further, to strike targets in the east or south.So even if you got permissions sorted and everything coordinated, in-flight failures would mean bombing yourself.
>>62064601I saw hypersonics mentioned, but no specifics. The swedes are involved in the UK's hypersonic program via Avioniq. Other than basing and deployment stuff, that could explain sweden's as yet unspecified interest.
>>62064487Thanks for list. Reckon we need any new launchers? We've got MARS II, any number of 6×6 or 8×8 trucks for EuroPULS, that tracked thing used for NOMADS (FFG Support Vehicle)...
I have very little faith in a good European deep strike missile. American missiles will always be better. SM-6 on f-18s. JASSM-XR, LRASM.
>>62065105If there's anybody who's going to make a missile to measure up to the US, it's going to be the Euros. Considering they pulled off the Storm Shadow, making a similar but longer ranged missile isn't so unlikely.
>>62064939>Reckon we need any new launchers?we definitely will, the question is just which.it's either gonna be GMARS by LockMart/Rheinmetall or EuroPULS by Elbit/KNDSapparently as of now EuroPULS can't legally launch the GMLRS missiles the Bundeswehr has in stock (technically it's no issue), so that's why the planned procurement was postponedI really hope we go for GMARS because the increasing reliance on Israeli arms is highly problematic (Israel is not an ally and has denied requests for redistributing license produced equipment to Ukraine).
>>62064312This is a nuclear icbm program in disguise, europe is gonna build a huge nuclear arsenal in the future. Lans, sea, air and space eventually no doubt. Theyve been spooked by how unreliable the US can get politically so euro nukes will be a thing soon.
>>62064567lel im sad I didnt buy more Kongsberg stock when the war hit. Theyre gonna build an enourmous multi layer air defense zone around Oslo now as well, fat contracts all around
>>62064312>pain and Sweden might also be interestedSweden and Finland should chip in as a sign of (extra)goodwill after the NATO ascension. Ukraine war has shown that even purely defense focused forces should have capability to strike inside any attacking nation.
>>62064939All I want for Christmas is boxer mlrs
>>62064654>pidor petukhayem status: lowered
>>62064347>NATO extending their ~50-year lead over Russia even furtherFTFY
>>62065142If there's anybody who's going to make a missile to measure up to the US, it's going to be the Euros. Why? Because you said so?
>>62065166>EuroPULS can't legally launch the GMLRS missiles the Bundeswehr has in stockhardware DRM on ANOTHER one of my missile trucks? aaaaaa>GMARS or EuroPULSSorry, what I meant was, will new launchers be required because of new requirements? Mid- and long-range introduce new problems.For Typhon's MRC battery the US went with a bunch of trucks hauling around trailers with support equipment and missiles in containers. It's ugly as fuck but quite practical, since it will work with any VLS that fits inside a 40-foot ISO box.>I really hope we go for GMARSI would prefer rheinmetall over elbit any day of the week, yeah.
>>62066973picrel. The announcement that the US will cover the gap starting 2026 with Tomahawk and SM-6 refers to this.
>>62066973>Sorry, what I meant was, will new launchers be required because of new requirements? Mid- and long-range introduce new problems.I think Naval Strike Missile and this Joint Fire Support Missile can be launched from platforms the size of MARS/HIMARS/PULS.MdCN/MdCT probably not, but not sure.>I would prefer rheinmetall over elbit any day of the weekit's LockMart, really, Rheinmetall/MAN just makes the truckbut I still agree
>>62067004Most importantly, MARS is a cutie.
>>62064939>we need any new launchersmost likely yes, 500km+ missile won't fit existing platforms. also LM are assholes and won't allow integrating third party missiles using their IP
>>62064312They could by TLAMs for under a couple million apiece with no billions wasted on R&D. They won't, of course, but they could.
>>62064616Bear falling behindNuclear arsenal rottingTotal Zigger Death
>>62064939As is they will probably try to slave the MARS launcher thingy to a Boxer.
>>62064567Diehl and MBDA Germany are responsible for aerodynamics/airframe, motor and propellant/fuel
>>62065303>>62072463using Boxer as MLRS platform is a waste imo, the Boxer isn't cheap and you don't need that kind of protection that far behind the line of contact. Using an armored truck is better imo.
>>62064312>>62064487>>62064497>>62064556>>62064567interesting, which one will be this 2000km missile you mentioned ?
>>62074241There are two of us. It's "Land Cruise Missile (LCM)" >>62064497 >>61990657
>>62074355> a french tlamNot very implessive
>>62074052>and MBDA GermanyMore specifically Bayern-Chemie, they also did the ramjet and propellant on the Meteor. Saw an interview with their CEO recently that said they are working on Mach 5+ hypersonics, but not sure if it's relevant to those programs
>>62074547>Saw an interview with their CEO recently that said they are working on Mach 5+ hypersonics, but not sure if it's relevant to those programsProbably more relevant for the MGCs and the ATGM platform.
>>62074588>>62074547a hypersonic atgm would be far too expensive given APS is still not a standard feature on most tanks, and those are mostly designed to counter 80s atgm or reduce apfsds penetration.likely another long range cruise missile project in disguise. Germany been seeking indigenous long range strike capability for a while
>literally anything>"Europe" in the program titleAlmost zero chance of success. Just the usual government-EU funding grift that leads to nothing.
>>62074547>Saw an interview with their CEO recently that said they are working on Mach 5+ hypersonicsNow that you mention it, I remember seeing that some months back and having no idea wtf it was in reference to.
>>62075562It was probably me who posted it. It was probably in an MGCS threadhttps://breakingdefense.com/2023/11/new-uses-new-propellants-mbda-germany-on-the-future-of-hypersonics/
>>62064312i'm not autistic enough to understand that meme
>>62076248https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate-Range_Nuclear_Forces_Treaty
>>62075006What's that with the new zigger anti-Europe agenda today?
>>62064459Good effortpost.
>>62076320I mean, coming from a european, our MIC is really fucking atrocious compared to the US and South Korea. Not as bad as thirdie shitholes like novorossiya, but honestly not that far off.
>>62076620the combined European MIC is second only to the US.
>>62076636Worst Korea has a headstart in mass production, that's all.
>>62064654The Chinese and Russians have deliberately engaged in a dog and pony show in order to hobble US capabilities. The Russians would constantly bitch about everything, while the Chinese went on their merry way, developing whatever shit they wanted, since they were not a signatory party. It's genuinely annoying that people realized this so damn late.
>>62064459>The INF treaty has been doomed for years.Are you from ten years ago? It's been DEAD at least that long
>>62076636Norks produce faster, South Korea produces more advanced systems. It's really not that great.
>>62076845the South Korean MIC is not more advanced than Europe's.
>>62065194Same, had to sell mine due to conflict of interest back in 2021, but have found an ETF that includes them finally
>>62076871Nigguh you'll have to be more convincing. Why would the fren- I mean European MIC be worthwhile when its weapons are rarely (if ever) battle tested and extremely poorly standardized, thus very inflexible and hard to deploy?
>>62076914Modern South Korean weapons have never been fired in anger. European weapon systems have been battle tested in Yugoslavia, the Global War on Terror, Ukraine.
>>62076871>the South Korean MIC is not more advanced than Europe's.Sounds like a Euro trying to convince himself he doesn't need to compete; echoing the Americans saying the same when confronted with Euro advancements.Firsties haven't competed against each other in a long time and the risk of a peer threat makes 'em nervous.
>>62076948no, I'm all for strengthening the Euro MIC. I'm just recognizing the fact that, as of now, the SK MIC is not more advanced. BAE, Dassault, Airbus D&S, KNDS, Rheinmetall, Leonardo, MBDA, H&K, Fincantieri, Naval Group, Saab, Kongsberg, GDELS, Thales, etc. Gook companies are not on par with that amount of expertise.
>>62076968You can't even beat them at howitzer sales. SK benefits from a full scale national production system due to the threat of NK. I don't doubt Euros can make some nice things in labs, but getting it out of the lab into t the atelier into the production line is not something Europeans have done since the end of the Cold War. The claim to a headstart has been dissolved by modern COTS tech.
>>62077044goalpost movingEuro MIC > SK MIC, that's an objective fact
>>62077175No, I don't think that's been established.
>>62077224producing more stuff =/= producing better stuff
>>62064459>Russia now needs to recapitalise it's strategic forces, but there is no way it can keep up in technology or scale with the PRC or the US; both entities have economies over five times the size of Russia in terms of purchasing power.PPP is a cope metric.In nominal GDP (USD) PRC is 9 times and USA is 14 times the size of the Russian economy.And both PRC and USA can openly trade on international markets while Russia is widely shitlisted.
>>62075601Heh. Funny how things go. Yeah, this was the link and I knew the context exactly when I replied to you, namely a late 2023 Breaking Defense article with (what I considered to be) a buried lede about hypersonics.Yet I managed to miss the mentions you made here, because MGCS. I rarely do more than skim threads like those because of the european AFV fungus amongus. You know the one.My logs say that I fetched that link to ask in threadsrel below if anyone knew more, but I didn't get to it in time.https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/61436963https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/61438678
>>62066980useful SM-6 figure imported from the france bait thread >>62076680
>>62065303too small
Bros...it's now very apparent that we are deep into Cold War 2. I know I'll probably be okay, but I can't help but feel an incredibly unease.
>>62079723Russia couldn't take over an eastern european backwater for 3 years now.
>>62079730Personally I am excited. It's been about time we stopped being so complacent
>>62079723How. Just how do you, or anyone, envision russia to take over europe? There are no regimes to take over without a fight, no important pro-russian countries, no civilian populaces that live as shit a live as pre-invasion ukrainians (or russians) or populaces that would swallow russian bullshit in case of an invasion. To even get anywhere important (central and west europe) they would need to fight through poland or across the baltic sea (aka lake NATO) with no army, no navy and an active warzone they can't win already.Also europe outmatches russia in every field. Demographics, economy, money, production capacity, human capital, etc. The only thing russia has are raw materials they can barely access, refine and transportJust how.>inb4 muh nukesEurope has nukes as well, even pacifist germany has US nukes and i would bet that those aren't for show.
>>62079891>even pacifist germany has US nukes and i would bet that those aren't for show.they are just for show. They're like 20 free fall B61 nukes. Imo we need either an indigenous (preferred) or a European nuclear deterrent, but that's not happening because this country is cucked to the core since 1945.
>>62079935With russias air """defence""" we might unironicaly see glide bomb nukes (sadly not on belgorod) used.Germany has no need to strike intercontinentaly, france is more than willing to pay for that capacity.
>>62079969we're a country of 84 million and the third largest economy on the planet. We should have nuke tipped ICBMs that can reach the entire globe. But as I said, not happening.
>>62064312>ELSA (European Long-Range Strike Approach)sounds really promisingapparently, according to the Spiegel article, it's been in the planning for a while nowand all big military spenders in the EU are on boardmeaning we finally get a missile that's in production for more than <10 years>>62064398makes no sensewe're looking at a 5y-10y development cycle here (probably on the shorter side as this will be based on some existing systems)so realistically 2029 or 2030>>62064601chances are high that this is gonna be hypersonic missilealso there's HYDEFwork has already startedand you can expect Diehl Defence to capitalize on the gained knowledgethey already co develop 3SM Tyrfing
>>62079935>they are just for show. They're like 20 free fall B61 nukesdoesn't matterNATO Article 5 is weak anywaythere's EU Article 42(7) which is WAY strongerFrance has nukesa strike on Germany explicitly allows France (by EU as well as French laws) to retaliate using nuclear weaponsthere are also rumors about a joint nuclear deterrence for the EU with french nukes
>>62080047all just wordsthere is no guarantee France would use its nukes in retaliation if we were nuked. And anti-German sentiment is widespread in France, they aren't interesting in close mutual defense (not like we have much to offer anyway, so it's understandable).we need to stand up for ourselves, but as I already said twice, not happening since this country is a sad joke
>>62079996>We should have nuke tipped ICBMs that can reach the entire globewhy?we are surrounded by really close alliesthe only realistic threads are local conflicts in North Africa that could tip over or some Balkan nations (well only 2 countries there) "president" that needs a "war" to stay in power ...and Russiafor the two conventional weapons (the few we already have) are more than enoughalmost every more advanced weapons system currently in development is targeted for or against RussiaELSA is one of themand with ~2000km range you can hit like 70% of the russian population
>>62080086>there is no guarantee France would use its nukes in retaliation>they aren't interesting in close mutual defensethat means France would bury the EUArticle 42(7) is probably the strongest mutual defense clause that exists for any supranational organization / country pact literally says>If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power>And anti-German sentiment is widespread in Francewtf dude, no it's noti literally never met a French person in real life that "actually" disliked / hated Germany and vice versaGermany is Frances biggest trading partner and France Germany's 3rd biggestif one suffers, the other will inevitable too>we need to stand up for ourselvesif you think about nukes that would mean joining Frances nuke programon no timeline Germany would or even could develop their own ones in a reasonable time frame
>>62080169Coping EU rat. Russia will be of taking France in two week only!
>>62079723>If I can just take over the strongest power of the continent it becomes trivial to compete with the rest.
>>62080191Ivan get back on your motorcycle!
>>62080191Celebratory porrige when?
>>62064497When I read the OP, my first thought was "why not just strap an MdCN to a Rafale and be done with it".With some optimisations and redesigns, it can go beyond 2000 kilometres easily.
>>62080169bro if you're German, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but other Euros don't give a shit about us besides how they can take our money. In fact most of them actively dislike/hate us.
>>62080264it's most likely too large and heavy for a Rafale/Eurofighter. Launching it from a truck is possible though, but the range is smaller in that case than with air launch.
>>62080312Yes, MdCN is close to half the length of the Rafale but some modifications to the airframe (if the missile doesn't deny take-off to begin with) would allow it to be deployed via a Rafale.However, now that I have given it some thought, Rapid Dragon style of delivery via A400Ms would be a superior solution and you could send massive salvos witj just one plane.
>>62080301A lot of people respect Germans in poorer countries as they see you as a model nation of the developed world.
>>62080334>Rapid Dragon style of delivery via A400Ms would be a superior solution and you could send massive salvos witj just one plane.agreedthey already experimented with launching drones from A400M, I hope they do it with cruise missiles too>>62080336true to an extent, but most Germans are oblivious to the fact how widespread anti-German sentiment is in Europe. So this assumption that other Euros would risk a nuke for us is ridiculous.
>>62080342Idk why nobody is coming forward with palletised deployment in Europe.It isn't that difficult and it would be such an extreme force multiplier.
>>62076914>when its weapons are rarely (if ever) battle testedAh yes, weapons such as the Storm Shadow, IRIS-T, Hammer, Leopard etc. have never been battle tested, unlike the glorious South Korean MIC nowhere to be seen in Ukraine.
>>62064567>DiehlIt should be noted that “Diehl” is an anagram of “Delhi”
>>62065132>O wait, it just didIt's been lapping the donkey cart since the 1980s
>>62076620>our MIC is really fucking atrocious compared to the US and South KoreaEh, not really, even the US resorts to buying our ships
>>62077251Wait, so you're saying Best Korea doesn't have the superior MIC?
>>62080561kekDiehl is probably one the most quintessential German companies out there>makes mainly high tech electronics>quasi monopoly for certain aviation electronics>boring water / energy metering (and steel) business with immovable, steady revenue>fully family owned>makes every type of weapons electronics and missile system>questionable development between '33 to '45it doesn't get more German than this
>>62080086>And anti-German sentiment is widespread in France, they aren't interesting in close mutual defenseAn attack on any European country is an attack on Europe itself. We may “hate” eachother (more banter than anything else), but when shit gets real may God give you mercy, because we sure as fuck won't
>>62080632Yeah, I know, but my mind still went there and I found it too funny not to post
>>62079723and if I take over South America it will be trivial for me to get a cutie native gfsuch delusions are not worth entertaining
>>62064459>INF treaty did not apply to air- or sea-launched missiles.Put the missile on a barge, float the barge on sea water carried around in a tank on wheels. Problem solved.
>>62064459>there is no way it can keep up in technology or scaleWhat do you mean, in what areas are they behind? They have survivable NC3 and relatively modern, accurate, survivable delivery platforms with short reaction time. What is there to improve? Some kind of anti-SDI countermeasures like parallel staging they were developing for RS-24?
>>62080342>>62080402Americans have already found the real war-winning weapon of WWIII and it boggles the mind NO ONE else is pursuing it despite being such an easy move. The ability to turn any pallet into a weapons system that can be shat out of any aircraft you've got is so game changing it's insane. The JAGM's and that new stealth antiship missile can just be fucking dumped out of logistics jets a few hundred KM away and the ordinance will simply fly on over and devastate your enemy for you. Fucking wild shit man.
>>62080632diehl is also home of iris-t and german licence made glmrs missiles
>>62076736ntabeing dead and actually having MICs (non-USA, western ones) do something about it are not the same thing.He probably just means the death of the INF being of material consequence for western MICs, and committing to producing such missiles in volume, has been inevitable for years. An end to the Peace dividend and all that.
>>62081104Pallets are cool but Rapid dragon was a few years ago. The new wunderwaffe is americans taking their fuckhuge ship-based interceptor missiles and just... strapping them onto carrier strike fighters.
>>62082210>seething vatnig cries about jannies eating his butthurt assholeNews at 11
>>62081183Rapid Dragon is a pretty new piece of tech. Recency bias should not be applied here. Nooks are 70 years old but we will probably use them for a millenia or more to come.>>62082210You don't know anything about guns.Zigger shitskins are not welcome here.Vermintide infested multiple boards, but you will not have /k/.
>>62082578Lifeless zigger, you will not infect this board with your shitskin opinions.
>>62082578>>>/pol/
>>62083369Somewhat, yes but that's still mostly because they're still largely infected with Russian/Soviet military thinking.
>>62080148>kraut dreaming of 2000km big stickAnd where would you faggot going to get this from ?
>>62085096Ivan don't you have a trench "party" to attend?hmm where could we possibly get a medium range missile? Maybe from one of European manufacturers who already make artificially range limited missiles just to be under the ~550km?Or maybe not having a completely defunct economy helps when you want something new developed...vatniks are really getting more stupid by the day kek
>>62080026> hypersonic missileSource ?yuropoors are just too poor to afford dupersonic missile
>>62087086which one
>>62087086https://www.iiss.org/en/online-analysis/online-analysis/2023/06/france-conducts-its-first-hypersonic-glide-vehicle-test/France tested a hypersonic glider last year.There a few companies developing hypersonic drones too.
HYDEF : HYpersonic DEFence Interceptorhttps://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/european-hypersonic-defence-interceptor-takes-2023-10-31_enHYDIS^2 : Hypersonic Defence Interceptor Studyhttps://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/edf-2023-project-hypersonic-defence-interceptor-study-hydis2-entrusted-occar-2023-12-11_en
>>62080632>>quasi monopoly for certain aviation electronicsElaborate?
>>62089517there's also the French ASN4G programwhich should be an hypersonic missilethey changed the details (and deadlines) a few timesbut it's under development and expected to fly somewhere around 2032-2033 with mass production from 2035 onward
>>62090344Do you need hypersonic missiles to intercept hypersonic missiles?I would guess no
>>62089517>>62090344why don't german just build their own hypersonic long range missile ? Still hoping of getting back to business with Gazprom for those sweet gas so nu uh can't build cause we wuz pacifist n shieeet ?
>>62079935German thermobaric cluster ICBMs would be quite easier to make, maintain amd mobilize than nukes, 20 or 30 of them would fuck over Moscowblight or Pidorsburg and there is no treaty forbidding them.
>>62079996How about antimatter my germanic fren?:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facility_for_Antiproton_and_Ion_ResearchMake it quick before Russia's fifth-columnists start bitching about le ecological damage.
>>62080301>t. Demoralized shame to Bismark and too many badass german ancestors to count.
>>62092765Why would Germany invest in a hypersonic missile? The money could be better spend on nuclear weapons.
>>62080679A weapon to surpass the bathtub!
>>62092782> building icbm without putting nuke on themAbsolutely retarded moveAny icbm launch in a substantial number would be met with full counterforce and countervalue from all the biggest nuclear powers, so it isn't about any kind of restriction here, you dimwit.And, citing how the us/uk, last but not least poccia failed to adhere to the budapest memorandum in guaranteeing ua security in exchange of forcing them to give up their nukes. A g*rm administration with any balls would instantly forfeit the 2+4 treaty anyway, but here we are
>>62082242They are butthurt because even at /pol/ they have started to get wrecked as evwn the thirdies can smell their weakness now.
>>62092818cause you need actual missiles to deliver those nuclear warheads, since nuclear bombs can't just grow itself a pair of wings.And anti ballistic missile tech are getting better. With donny and vance chance of becoming jewmerica next supreme leaders, you always have to take everything into account, even jewmerica align itself with vatnikstan
>>62092765>why don't german just build their own hypersonic long range missile ?it's not that the knowledge or manufacturing capabilities aren't thereDLR made multiple hypersonic gliders over the years and has research groups on itMBDA already makes the Meteor which could most likely be hypersonic in a bigger variant, ArianeGroup makes the (future) french hypersonic missile and Diehl has probably enough knowledge toobut there wasn't a need for hypersonic missiles (until now)pre 2022 Russia was "peaceful enough" and the widespread believe (from German politicians) was, that deep enough economic ties would prevent them from doing anything stupidand even todayRussia can't even stop old(ish) cruise missiles from Ukraine and most of the war plays out with tanks and dronesso these are probably the fields Germany should invest in on a more acute basis (and they are doing so, more Skyshield, more Iris-T, more Lasers, more Leopards, more Eurofighter / F35)
>>62092926> making leopoor tonk in 2024brainlet takefuture afv will be modular with aps and armed with bvr anti tank missile. Armor will be as minimal as possible, probably only enough to resist rifle/auto cannon fireyou heard it here first
>>62092926>deep enough economic ties would prevent them from doing anything stupid> implying the whole g*rm government werent filled with commie sympathizers or straight up fifth columnists like schroeder or merkel in the first place
>>62080169I believe the ASMP can be used in case Germany is attacked, there's enough leniancy in this specific weapon's rules of engagement.But their ballistic subs? Forget it, their doctrine is way too liberal and automated (touch my pinky and I turn you to jelly) to be used to protect two country at once, especially germany.
