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An informative pic for /lit/
Plato advocated for more centralized system and unitary ideals; Aristotle advocated for political pluralism and a partnership of clans (which is the basis for a partnership of states in decentralized models).
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Plato / There won't be any difference, so far as ruling is concerned, between the character of a great household & the bulk of a small city
>Visitor: Well then, surely there won't be any difference, so far as ruling is concerned, between the character of a great household, on the one hand, and the bulk of a small city on the other? – Young Socrates: None. – It's clear that there is one sort of expert knowledge concerned with all these things; whether someone gives this the name of kingship, or statesmanship, or household management, let's not pick any quarrel with him.

Aristotle writes in Politics,
>Now there is an erroneous opinion that a statesman, king, householder, and a master are the same, and that they differ, not in kind, but only in the number of their subjects. For example, the ruler over a few is called a master; over more, the manager of a household; over a still larger number, a statesman or king, as if there were no difference between a great household and a small state.

Aristotle:
>For some are of opinion that the rule of a master is a science, and that the management of a household, and the mastership of slaves, and the political and royal rule, as I was saying at the outset, are all the same
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>>24784986
>I don't think so, because Aristotle says that a tyrannical estate governs a multitude like a master over his servants.
>He doesn't really consider a monarchy to be a political state but economical estate.
>That isn't an association of families and clans or a constitution of freemen and equals.
>And Aristotle considers the 5th form of monarchy to be a big estate.
The principle of how they're ruled isn't at stake, an "association of families and clans" is simply what a city is, *regardless of whether ruled well or bad*. And your translation isn't doing you many favors; Aristotle doesn't talk about "states," but only "city-states," and he's clear that monarchies, aristocracies, mixed regimes, democracies, oligarchies, and tyrannies, are all "regimes," i.e., they're all *necessarily* possible ways of constituting cities. If you come away from the Politics thinking monarchy isn't a political regime to him, or that tyrannies aren't examples of regimes a city-state could take, then you're not coming away with understanding, I hate to say.
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Aristotle ranks a Monarchy with an economical estate, and ranks a system of freemen and equals with a constitutional / political government. So that Monarchy is proper for economical estates and not political rule.
The only Monarchy I think Aristotle really allows for is the monarchy of the mixed regime -- or if this Monarchy is the most pre-eminent in virtue, but Aristotle discounts that idea and says it isn't possible.

Aristotle:
>The rule of a household is a monarchy, for every house is under one head:
>whereas constitutional rule is a government of freemen and equals.

The attitude Aristotle has towards Monarchy is exactly what De Jouvenel is saying in a Monarchical vs Senatorial government.

De Jouvenel / Monarchical vs Senatorial
>According to which of these two hypotheses is adopted, the conclusion is reached that the "natural" government is either the monarchical or the senatorial. But from the time that Locke utterly smashed up Filmer's fragile structure, the earliest political authority was considere to be the senate composed of fathers of families, using the word "families" in the widest sense.

>Society must, therefore, have presented two degrees of authority, which were quite different in kind. On the one hand is the head of the family, exercising the most imperious sway over all who were within the family circle.

>On the other are the heads of families in council, taking decisions in concert, tied to each other only by consent, submitting only to what has been determined in common, and assembling their retainers, who have outside themselves, neither law nor master, to execute their will.

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>>24784978
For Aristotle, the City mustn't be monarchical or like one corporate body under one head.
That is made clear by this quote: >>24784971
>For the people becomes a monarch, and is many in one;
When the city becomes a monarch -- Aristotle is clear that's a bad thing, because Aristotle wants his city to be not a monarchy (because Aristotle thinks a monarchy is proper to an economical estate) and not a political state (which needs be plural and many fathers in council) -- again, like the Orthodox, who don't recognize the jurisdiction of the Pope over them as bishops, that is exactly Aristotle's attitude towards Monarchy.
>>
I don't think Aristotle is very pro-Monarchy.
If it is, it's the rare occasion that a monarch is like a god among men, but even then Aristotle writes this:
>>Now, if some men excelled others in the same degree in which gods and heroes are supposed to excel mankind in general (having in the first place a great advantage even in their bodies, and secondly in their minds), so that the superiority of the governors was undisputed and patent to their subjects, it would clearly be better that once for an the one class should rule and the other serve. But since this is unattainable, and kings have no marked superiority over their subjects, such as Scylax affirms to be found among the Indians, it is obviously necessary on many grounds that all the citizens alike should take their turn of governing and being governed

See, Aristotle says he thinks Kings should take their turn in being governed -- Aristotle, if he leaves any room for Monarchy, his monarchy I think is more like Malaysia where the High King is rotational or, again, like the HOly Roman EMpire.

That he says Monarchy is proper for an economical estate means he considers the regime to be not proper for political rule, and if it does that makes the city more like an economical estate than a proper political state -- which can only be compensated for if the Monarch in question has such pre-eminent virtue...

But considering that, Aristotle uses the food argument against the rule of a wise man or philosopher king, discrediting that idea even more.

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Which epic poems have you read, anons? And what do you think of the epic? Can epic poetry be written in the modern period? Think ‘A’, Cantos, Paterson, and Omeros.
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>>24773596
POD?
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>>24784775
Print on demand
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>>24784751
>Divine Comedy
>folk tale
kill yourself
>>
i havent read hesiod but i intend to
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>>24780824
sell it to me.

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Why do the rich worship Jesus if he considered them his enemies at the time along with the pharisees? The Sermon on the Mount is literally a proto-communist manifesto.
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Any redpilled books out there about Christianity, masculinity, the Faustian spirit and aggression?
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>>24784576
That Hideous Strength
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>>24778791
This entire thread so far
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>>24784576
What does this even mean? What are you trying to say about "the Faustian Spirit"? What does Christianity have to do with aggression? Honestly make requests that make sense instead of spouting a bunch of garbled gobbledygook
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>>24778791
Because if you use your wand and ask who’s god it’ll come back and say Jesus if you ask what religion is correct it’ll say Islam because it’s demonic shit

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Is it true that french is a much more sophisticated and elegant language than English?
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France seems like it has better writers. I wouldn't know since I only know English and can only read translations.
>>
English has like 800,000 words, French only has 135,000. You can't be as sophisticated with French
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>>24781306
How do I say this janky shit in french?
>The victim in question was Mr Smith, whom was murdered by his ten year old daughter.
Whom between a preposition and question mark sounds natural, but as shown here if it's used before a verb it ruins the flow of the sentence.
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>>24782308
I think English is fairly well known for having many different ways to say the same thing, and of the languages I've been exposed to it has a stronger stylistic expectation among native speakers not to repeat words too close together unless absolutely necessary.
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>>24784862
Learn French
Download French for Reading by Karl Sandberg and you can also read Le Français Par La Méthode Nature for supplementary input
Use anki to drill vocabulary
Everyone on /lit/ should study at least one language to the point where they can fluently engage with that language's literature and French is one of if not the best languages to choose

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I finished Book 1 today (the dual sided Greek and English edition from Loeb’s).

I am enjoy Daphnis and Chloe a lot so far. I see it as akin to other ribald tales. I see some similarity between Dorkos and the wild antics of men in Petronius. Dorkos disguised himself as a wolf to rape Chloe but as things fall apart the simple duo see him and think it is a harmless prank not realizing the major harm nearly at hand. Likewise the bit with the pirates out of nowhere plundering his cattle and murdering him seemed Petronian. It almost seems like something you’d find in Boccaccio.

Chloe to me is an Alibech type figure and I wonder if Boccaccio read this book. Chloe sees Dafnis’ nude body and doesn’t even understand the feeling of arousal much like how Alibech doesn’t understand what ‘sending the devil to hell’ is. Two naive characters roughly the same age as well- I envision 13 or 14 yrs of age.

The prose itself is very straightforward and easy and I knew this before going in which is why I chose this as my first Greek book to read. This is definitely not content or style like you’d find in Platon or Herodotus.

Why's there so little Mathematical Fiction, when Science Fiction is so big?
>>
Reddit book
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e6a7SW8wZA
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>>24784023
What is this nerd shit about?

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Is it gay to read in the bathtub while drinking tea and smoking cigarettes
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>>24779591
Smoking cigs in the bath is gay. Drinking tea in the bath is gay. Taking a bath in it of itself is not gay, however it’s meaningful to add magnesium chloride (not magnesium sulfate aka Epsom salts — Epsom salts are fine but magnesium chloride is absorbed by the skin better) and lavender oil.
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>>24784596
Fucking tripfaggot moron
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>>24784236
I was using a batman forever promotional mug from mcdonalds if i remember correctly. don't know where it came from, i hate superhero comics.
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>>24784718
>batman forever

i think this was the gayest part, desu
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>>24784681
>In any just universe, you would all be my slaves and spend your lives raking muck in my fields.
Feel free to imagine that while playing with your dicklet

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Do you think your life will be more pleasant with anyone but me? Think about it!—Ah! certainly not!—Only with me can you be free. And since I swear to you that I will be kind from now on, that I deplore all my share of wrongs, that my mind is at last clear, that I truly love you—if you refuse to return, or to let me come to you, you are committing a crime, and you will repent of it for many years to come, through the loss of all freedom and torments perhaps even more dreadful than any you have known. After that, think back to what you were before you met me.

As for me, I am not going back to my mother’s; I am going to Paris, and I will try to leave by Monday evening. You will have forced me to sell all your clothes—I can do no otherwise. They are not yet sold: they will only be taken away on Monday morning. If you wish to write to me in Paris, address your letters to L. Forain, 289 rue Saint-Jacques, for A. Rimbaud. He will know my address.

Certainly, if your wife returns, I will not compromise you by writing to you—I will never write again.

The only true word is this: come back. I want to be with you; I love you. If you listen to this, you will show courage and a sincere spirit. Otherwise, I pity you. But I love you, I embrace you, and we shall see each other again.
>>
>>24784351
>k
>>
>>24784351
Tfw a twink will never write me a letter like this
>>
I bought the Pléiade edition of Rimbaud but only 200 pages or so are dedicated to his writings the rest is just his letters, I was expecting him to have written more
Which are the best letters to read?
>>
>>24784351
And I explained in detail my arithmetical reasons for not sending him any money. He responded with 1) impertinence laced with obscure blackmail announcements, 2) apothecary accounts showing me that it was a good deal for me to "lend" him the sum in question. — Not to mention a missive written in the gibberish of a drunkard, in which I thought I could make out that he was attaching to his future letters the condition that I would have to "pay up" or else, Fuck it. [...] After all, this philomath hasn't done me much good. 18 months of, as you know, my little fortune badly chipped away, my marriage destroyed, my advice rejected, and the most crass rudeness to finish! Many thanks!

I am writing a short story with my protag being a 36 year old married white woman HS Teacher that fucks her former student and likes driving also her only daughter just went off to college.
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>>24784431
No, he's just a classmate and they only bang like two or three times. Her daughter's boyfriend is friends with that guy though. Her husband is 12 years older than her and is a lawyer, so she bangs her student because her husband cheats too.
She also hates her job so the main point of the story is for her to sort of still feel free despite the circumcstances she lives in now as a woman in her 30's in a near dead marriage, no more kids, and working a job she kind of really hates.

I'm a 27 year old dude writing this, so I have no idea if I'll be able to write an older female protagonist in this situation well or just fumble it. The people that are going to read this are mostly going to be women.
Also, uhhh, I didn't want to make this thread about my story, I was hoping anons would share their protagonists as well.
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>>24784607
It would be better if the student is one year younger than her daughter and also her (former?) boyfriend that she still keeps in touch with long distance and loves despite also slowly becoming a whore at college. Daughters bf confides to the mom about this which is how they start sleeping together.
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>>24784612
Hm, okay, I'll consider this, thanks. It's gonna take place in Quebec. Driving is gonna be a big aspect of this so I guess Montreal to Quebec city would e a big aspect of this. I think QC has Laval University so that could be an aspect.

Whatever im rambling. Thanks dude.
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>>24784633
I just made those suggestions because I think it'll help keep the story tight if you have a shorter cast of characters that are playing more roles in the story. Will also give you a lot more time to develop them of course (and because the cucking idea earlier anon suggested was very eroi desu). Anyway best of luck with the writing.
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>>24784612
This, and also she's a primary school teacher and her daughter just started high school

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What's the cutoff point before the Dune books start being bad?
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>>24783704
Filtered
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>>24783707
Yes, but walk me through it anyway. Herbert became a hedonist American? In what way was his prior work a means to an end?
>>
>>24783179
Postwar boomer sci-fi is always about broad stroke futurist concepts. Otherwise this: >>24783181 in for a penny, in for a pound.
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>>24783181
Dilating religitard. You are the cattle the bene gisserit use.
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>>24783179
The absolute cutoff is when Brian starts writing them, but they progressively get wackier starting with the first one. There are more and more questionable decisions as the books progress. I would say maybe God Emperor is the last one where the interesting and the stupid are still balanced in favor of interesting.

Icebreaker: what are your favourite commentaries/secondary sources for understanding Plato?

Robin Waterfield's The First Philosophers is something I find myself going back to every time a really get into a dialogue. Even though Plato is never really the focus of the book at any point, its really good for contextualising his philosophy alongside what had gone before. Not only does it help one distinguish what might be original ideas from mere developments or rearticulations of already existing ones, but its also useful for clarifying some of the more esoteric references. Take Phaedo for instance, the dialogue ends with the hemlock working its way through Socrates:
>[the man administering Socrates the poison] felt it himself and said that when the cold reached his heart he would be gone
According to Philolaus:
>there are four sources of a rational creature - brain, heart, navel and genitals […] Head for thought, heart for soul…
Therefore, there implication by Plato here is that Socrates' soul left his body at the point the cold reached his heart

Previous Thread: >>24705276

Recent Plato-related threads:
>>24746113 (Will studying Plato give me wisdom on the nature of the soul?)
>>24745236 (Academic consensus on Plato's metaphysics/epistemology?)
>>24732342 (how does the physical world relate to the world of Forms?)
>>24728045 (why did Medieval Christians prefer Aristotle over Plato?)
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>>24781253
Plato is peak midwit
>>
Bump
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Any good modern translations of Plato's work? I've been trying to read The Allegory of the Cave but I can't even get past the first 10 pages. The writing is too archaic and convulted. I have to read every sentence multiple times to figure out what it means.
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>>24784383
which translation are you reading? Also, have you read any other parts of The Republic?
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>>24772592
QRD on the mysteries? Is this where they were partaking in a psychedelic mystery religion?

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>"Would you still love me if I was a bug?"
>"No."
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>>24784129
>the 2000s
You mean the 2010s?
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>>24782254
Who the fuck cares about The Metamorphosis, when brilliant novels like The Trial and The Castle were never finished!
Oh, how I wish Kafka lived to be an old man...he absolutely would've been discovered in the literary world in his lifetime due to Max Brod's efforts.
Although...if Kafka were elderly, he'd have to have dealt with the grief and struggle of losing all of his sisters in the holocaust...
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>>24784164
>he'd have to have dealt with the grief and struggle of losing all of his sisters in the holocaust...
also he could have turned into a bug
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>>24784145
No I mean the 2000s as a century
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>>24784355
just say the 21st century, youll avoid all confusion

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What does this board think of her?
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>>24782415
Shes not bvilt
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built for...
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>>24783320
Love <3
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/lit/ retards always have time to argue about books they've not read
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>>24777273
>I'm really not built for this.
What is she even built for then?

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I thought women didn't like sex or intimacy or men or rajas in general. What gives?
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>>24784743
average people have never been hot. women included.
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>>24784008
>60,000 reviews
Insane.
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>>24784043
Hilarious "ur vir-gen lul" joke.
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>>24784008
>rajas
Fuck off jeet.
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>>24784008
Hmmm... Campbell might say that women are beautiful and men are sublime - what men want in women is beauty, while what women seek in men is action. Aesthetic on the one side, narrative on the other. Probably wouldn't end it there but it's a starting point.

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Books on how to stop being a narcissist?
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Just read some Hesse and stop posting those shitty things from 15 fucking years ago
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>>24784511
The New Testament, njkv
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>>24784511
you can't stop being a narcissist, but the fact that you think you're a narcissist and want to change is proof you're not a narcissist.

you're probably just gay or somethihg


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