>>24006888
I'm going to demand a refund. Wish me luck.

hodie ego legi capitulum duodecimum in quo sunt arma ut gladii et pila et hastae nam de arte bellandi tractat. Aemilius frater Aemiliae miles romanus est. Quo in germania pugnante contra paganos silvestres Aemilia aegre se fert qua de re in horto plorat. ille autem robustissimus est et iam iugulavit duo mille germanos hirsutos. terra germania pacata sine dubio reversus erit ad sororem et nepotes obtruncata ferens capita.

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>>24008222
cum autem ad ultimum annum pervenerit stipendia in exercitu merendi, certior factus est proficiscendum tandem esse in Angrivarios duce quodam Arminio, vir fama fidei dignissimus; quo audito Aemilia laetata est fratrem profecto mox domum reversurum

>>24008270
Marte volente

>>24008222
>ego legi
Cur? Scimus quod “legi” interpretatum est “(ego) legi.” Nonne supervacuus est?

>>24008415
>ego autem eo ipso tempore trans mare fui
quemadmodum ego volo ego scribo. quamquam ego ciceroinianus non sum ecce exemplum manu eius factum.

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>>24008451
hoc autem exemplum haud ad tuam refert sententiam, nam patet adversativum esse sententiae priori, id est, necesse est 'ego' adicere quod 'autem' sequitur
>si «vos» me ....., «ego» autem ....

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Writing these letters is fucking brutal. I am now convinced that Chinese people are schizophrenic.

>>24008204
Good luck. That course was total bs.

>>24008697
學讀古文字者、不難也。日日必習之。

>>24008222
>hodie
Such a stupid word.

>>24008641
>Haec ego cum ipsis philosophis Athenis disserebam
aliud tibi condono magister
>>24008824
hodierno die

>>24008824
>hoc die
>hocdie
>ho'die
It's called efficiency.

>>24008824
"today" is stupider. "aujourd'hui" is pretty dumb too.

今日 supremacy.
As in jīnrì. *kepu > kyō is retarded

Does anyone know of a good etymology dictionary for old norse? I am a speaker of Dutch and German and having cognates makes everything way easier. I have been using wiktionary up until now but a lot of the time it doesn't have an etymology or at most mentions only an obscure dead english word.

>>24007511
It is really not that bad actually. At first the amount of unknown characters is the biggest problem. If you start recognizing radicals, they appear actually quite different. Even famous ones like 烏焉魯魚. I think it's harder to start learning characters from classical texts, because they have a higher diversity in characters than modern ones but thats just my opinion.

Which is better for literary purposes and also if you already know Russian
OCS or old east Slavic
I'm just a bit confused since OCS seems like it's more for the Yugoslavia area than Russia but I also get conflicting reports on that

>>24009075
Have you tried the cleasby/vigfusson?
https://old-norse.net/search.php#search
They sometimes have etymologies in their entries
>ÍSS, m. [A.S. îs; Engl. ice; O.H.G. îs; Germ. eis; Swed. and Dan. is]:

>>24009075
The prospect of memorizing the characters isn't what bothers me, it's having to draw the Mona Lisa for every word.

>>24009139
Thank you very much. Sadly no dutch but I should not have expected that. The influence of High German has been a disaster for the German language.

>>24009564
Maybe I was a bit unclear, but when you have dealt with them for a long time they just become letters like "A" is a letter. You don't think about how you write "A", you *just* write it. 90% of characters can be written quickly with just some practice if you know how they generally work.

That is, personally, one of the reasons why I don't recommend writing until you have a decent level. Writing becomes way easier to learn and you don't learn any errors. Beginners tend to just try to replicate characters and don't respect balance and proper shapes which leads to ugly letters found rampant nowadays.

If you really really hate the amount of strokes, I recommend learning 草書 or 行書. These are art forms however and should not be taken lightly.

finally jumped into some Aeschylus, I suppose when it comes to plays one alone reader can't do much but read it basically like prose? i.e there's no meter I'm missing is there?

>>24010280
>there's no meter I'm missing is there
bad news
All ancient plays are written in meter. All. And that meter is not static, it changes and morphs and switches constantly back and forth often with little rhyme or reason.
Halprn and Ostwald's The Meters of Greek and Latin Poetry is brief and deep, highly recommended. you can find it on the usual sites

>>24010300
damn, I mean I have enjoyed what I have read so far even without paying attention to the presence of meter but thanks for the rec, it does look promising, often times anything dealing with meter except for the hexameter feels like reading alchemy

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λυμαίνεται τὴν ἀλήθειαν ὁ ποιητής

When did we rediscover ancient Greece? How long until we could read the original Greek stuff in Greek?
I'm just wondering how much of the Latin stuff is just habit. Why not just jump right into ancient Greek? Rome just seems like a copy. It made sense when all we had were the Latin translations of Greek but now I'm just confused. If you have to teach one or the other why not Greek.

>>24011107
wat
knowledge was never lost in Byzantium, it just took time to seep back west which by that time had made latin its own intellectual language ultimately for other reasons

>>24011107
Politian is the first true Hellenist in the west.

>>24010469
It can at first, once you get used to it it gets better. It will take a lot longer than hexameter. Maybe try some elegiacs then iambic trimeters to slowly work towards new meters.
If you read Latin Horace and Catullus are good for several poems in 'unconventional' meters. Catullus has about 40 hendecasyllables if I remember correctly.
Dramatic meters are a pain and have dozens of minor variations which makes learning them a slog in the beginning.

>>24011107
dumb

>>24008824
>today
>tomorrow
>yesterday
>tonight
>afternoon
>midnight
?

>>24009005
Today is the literal equivalent. You are right about the frogs tho. What kind of abomination is that

>>24011532
Hui is the French reflex for hodie (same as Catalan hui, Spanish hoy...) but sound changes made it too similar to words such as oui, so "aujourd'hui" emerged in the Middle French period as an unambiguous alternative.

In the modern language, some people will use "au jour d'aujourd'hui", sometimes sarcastically while aware of the pleonasm.

>In the aorist middle (unlike the imperfect), the sigma in -σο is dropped, and contraction has occurred in ἔθου, from *ἔθε(σ)ο, and ἔδου, from *ἔδο(σ)ο, where the vowel preceding the sigma is short.
Couldn't the Greeks be consistent just this once

I hope it is not too offtopic, but how many and which classical languages do you want to learn? Do you just want to keep it at one for the rest of your life?
Im personally interested in old norse and classical chinese, but I wont start on chinese for a long time.

>>24007391
English orthography is defective in the sense that it doesn't have a way of marking all the phonemic distinctions of English. In particular, <th> can stand for either the voiced or voiceless dental fricative (which have minimal pairs, like thy/thigh, ether/either, mouth(noun)/mouth(verb)...), and there's no spelling associated primarily with the FOOT vowel as it 'borrows' spellings that are associated by default with the STRUT or GOOSE vowels.

>>24009061
>jīnrì
Mandarin pronunciation is pretty different from that of ancient times. You could at least go with Taiwanese (kim-jit) or Cantonese (gāmyaht) which are much closer.

>>24011635
For the sake of clarity, all is forgiven. I retract my statement and humbly apologize ranis.

>>24009564
When you're acquainted with the characters you don't think of them in terms of a mess of a dozen strokes, you think of them in terms of components. 景 is just 日 over 京. 問 is just 口 in 門. And so on.

>>24008204
>>24008735
Here's the response I got
>I'm sorry to hear that you are not enjoying your Latin class with [teacher]. Unfortunately, as per our withdrawal and refund policy, we only offer a 50% refund if you notify us and the Instructor before the second session, and we are now going into the final week of the Semester.
>I will also note that [teacher] has been teaching for us, and in particular his Introductory Intensives for many years, and we have full confidence in his abilities, and have only gotten positive reviews in the past.
For anyone coming here from the archive: reconsider taking a class from the Paideia Institute. Total waste of money, only worth the cost of the textbook.

>>24012129
>unlike the imperfect
That is fairly standard in the imperfect and sigma is often dropped resulting in vowel contraction. Consistency all around.

>>24009564
Learn the basic rules for stroke order. Top to bottom, left to right, outside before inside, etc.
Then practice by learning the radicals. Individual characters are composed of several parts. once you know them and a couple variations you will not have trouble writing characters again.
The big problem is not writing, it is memorizing thousands of more or less similar characters and their assorted meanings.

>>24013016
Not for athematics though.

>>24013046
My understanding is the aorists of athematic verbs take thematic forms and therefore contract while imperfect middles remain athematic and thereby don't. It is confusing though and feels inconsistent.

>>24013095
Yes, that's what the post was about.

>>24012440
after Latin and Greek I doubt I will be able to add another one in my spare time, also because there's much to read for both and it takes me time and also I would like to cultivate some other modern languages too; but otherwise, I'd probably choose Sanskrit as the next one

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Is it worth it? Costs about US$ 30.

>>24014599
Some red flags there. Check the publisher, who is it, when were they founded, how are their other books reviewed. Can't be certain from that pic but smells like a cheap reprint.

>>24014599
>>24014631
I looked it up and the guy seems at least semi-legit. He prints a ton of biblical readers. At $30 it's worth a shot though I would go for Nestle-Aland, twice the languages for double the price

What are the best resources for biblical Hebrew that you've personally tried?

>>24014599
It seems the guy is legit but the fact that he self-publishes a 'ton of biblical readers' makes me suspect that it's likely a lazy cashgrab
Maybe this guy runs public domain texts through an AI as a way to supplement his income
I really fucking doubt that his guy is spending hundreds of hours producing good editions of all the texts he publishes, a PHD student just doesn't have the time

>>24009061
I forgot to mention in this post that I'm trans (Male to Female) BTW, not sure if that matters.

>>24009075
>Does anyone know of a good etymology dictionary for old norse?
Fritzner's dictionary is the thinking man's dictionary, but Cleasby-Vígfusson suffices too.

>>24015745
Addendum: Do note that this (C-V) is an Old Icelandic dictionary, as is the one by Geir T. Zoëga (which is also fine), and functions for the Classical period western corpus (what most people mean by "Old Norse"). It's outdated in parts, but exhaustive.

>>24012454
You phrase this as if the orthpgraphy needed to have these. It does not. It functions without, and can perfectly express speach as it currently stands. Maybe in a few hundred years, English will develop such sound changes that the orthography must be reformed, but we are absolutely not there right now.

>>24015757
>orthpgraphy
>speach
jesus christ
orthography*, speech*

𐌐𐌌𐌖𐌁

>>24012957
Anyone else know anything about the Paideia Institute? I had a similar bad experience

>>24017301
I don't know anything about the Paideia Institute, but I do have something to say on this general subject. No one is going to give you a high quality education in the ancient languages for free. Some resources have been made available online but if you want a living breathing person to give you their time, you're going to have to consider their needs as well. Most if not all of us who know classical languages learned in school, which costs about $100,000 and 4 years, give or take. This is the best way to learn. I imagine that the Paideia Institute was much cheaper than that.

I think for many the very act of paying for someone to teach them something is motivating insofar as they are putting money into it and unless they are rich that alone boosts their willpower even if they could just pick a book and learn by themselves and the teacher isn't doing anything special.

>>24017797
In that case the person accepting the money is performing the most valuable service there could be, that of motivation.

I would like to write about the Balkans but am finding it difficult to get a truly grounded perspective by just reading about how much of a shithole Kosovo and the other states/substates/pseudostates are. What do I need to keep in mind should I decide to travel to the region myself? Basically, how does one avoid getting shot or stabbed?

>>24015757
I'm not saying English orthography doesn't work; empirically it does, since we're having this conversation in it. "Defective" is a technical term in this context, meaning "not representing all phonemic distinctions in a language". (It is harder to learn than most languages' orthographies, but that's another issue.)

>>24018003
Would, say, Hiragana be an example of a writing system that is not defective?

>>24018038
NTA, but no. There is no way to signify vowel syncope in kana despite its abundant usage in Japanese.

Can the modern day Greek understand Ancient & Koine Greek without much difficulty?

>>24018045
Are there any writing systems that are not defective?

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Are there any other people like Geoffrey Steadman putting out physical readers in this style of text+vocab+grammatical commentary on each page?

I'm currently having great success reading Plato's Phaedo this way.

>>24018038
It doesn't represent pitch accent by default.
>>24018045
Can you give an example of a minimal pair?

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>>24018655
>然 (しか)
>私家 (しか)
Minimal pairs aren't a good way to demonstrate it, though. It crops up much more often in poetry, music, pronunciation of loanwords, and colloquial speech; only there isn't a way to notate it as we would [over > o'er], [hastening > hast'ning], [ravishéd > ravish'd], [derivéd > deriv'd], etc. Pronunciation changes like these: [一 (i.chi) > ich], [三日 (mi.kka) > mik], [プレイ (pu.re.i) > pre.i], [食欲 (sho.ku.yo.ku) > sho.ku.yok], [震わす (fu.ru.wa.su) > fu.ru.was], [散す (chi.ra.su) > chi.ras] [白く (shi.ra.ku) > shi.rak], [衾 (fu.su.ma) > fsu.ma], [草笛 (ku.sa.bu.e) > ksa.bu.e], [起こる (o.ko.ru) > o.kor] can't be differentiated in kana. Only changes which affect the 五母音 can be reflected properly, as in [書いておく (かいておく) > かいとく]. 子音と母音の組み合わせを形成する音節の場合には到底出来ないことです。

>>24018891
>>然 (しか)
>>私家 (しか)
Are you suggesting that systematically only one of these has a devoiced vowel? I've never heard of such a notion, where can I read more about it?
>Minimal pairs aren't a good way to demonstrate it, though.
They're the main thing that's relevant to a writing system. A writing system can't write every articulatory detail, just those that affect meaning.

>>24018228
I asked a native Greek math professor this once. He told me that the grammar has changed, but the words are still understandable. However, many of them have different definitions. Some of this is due to Christianity levying a "GOOD IS BAD, BAD IS GOOD" effect upon the Greeks, but some of it is just due to how words change over time (a word meaning "courageous" has shifted to meaning "stupid")

>>24018897
My Greek professor told me an anecdote about a Greek student who took it because he thought it would be an easy A and put in no effort, and at one point confidently translated οὐ φοβούμαι τὴν κολάσιν as "I do not fear hell"

>>24018907
What does it mean?

>>24019600
κόλασις in ancient Greek just means punishment in a neutral sense

If every writing system is defective to some degree why complain about it in any particular language?

I have never formally studied Greek but I read and reread sentences from some of the books I own to get a feeling of it and to eventually learn what the words mean. I pronounce it phonetically entirely based on a book of the greek alphabet I read as a kid. Here is my translation of a sentence of Plotinus

“A-pollon apothasei ten pollon”

Not many arises from the many.

Ie the One is what the many originate from.

It is from the Enneads and it is on the etymology of Apollo’s name (A-pollon= not many).

Ton thronein brotous odosanta

(The) (sacred one) (who points us) (to wisdom?)

>>24018228
Koine with relatively little effort, attic and the dialects, though some are very near to ancient dialects, like Tsaconik to Dorean, rather difficultly. The vocabularly is largely the same, yes, a few hundred words like andras, gynaika, polis, ego etc. are unchanged since homeric times. Dative though is missing in modern Greek and a lot of words have changed meanings drastically like kairos meaning weather nowadays, although it is fascinating and sweet telling someone the grander meaning of this everyday word and making them reflect. Greek is after all a very conservative language, the pontiac dialect for example is very near to medieval greek spoken by the lower classes.
The alphabet is the same and a Greek has a huge benefit when starting to learn ancient greek. The main reason Greeks don't know the ancient language though is mainly due to the horrible education system which makes every Greek hate the ancients and their language. A symptom of our decadence is the very modern hellenic mishellenism, Greeks hating on the Greeks, going as far as to deny any relation of the moderns to the ancients, even facts that are objectively true, but that's also a reaction to nationalists claiming that ancients and moderns are absolutely and objectively the same, they will even argue you into believing the ancients were monotheists, (because Plato or something, thought they haven't read him and can't, but it's still 100% teh same langugae unchanged, you can thank the byzantine-jews for that). One can read about the language question if interested in that story.
Nowadays it's absolutely disgusting and depressing hearing the americanisation of the language, the rape of the most noble of languages by the news, commercials and niggermusic.

>>24020803
there's a joke which I don't remember if it was a real story, though it isn't really that unlikely.
A Chinese company makes a congress in Greece and a Chinese businessman recites a text in Ancient Greek, then a modern Greek interpretation and at last an English translation. The Greeks in the audience thought the first text was in Chinese, the second in Ancient Greek and finally understoood the English translation.

What would Phoenecian->Greek-> Latin alphabet look like if it was based on writing on soft paper using pillows loveliness of serenity and aesthetic joy instead of carving in stone

>>24019755
Recency bias

1ἵπποι ταί με φέρουσιν, ὅσον τ᾽ ἐπὶ θυμὸς ἱκάνοι,

Ippoi tai me theroudin, odon tay epi thumos ikanoi

πέμπον, ἐπεί μ᾽ ἐς ὁδὸν βῆσαν πολύφημον ἄγουσαι

Pempon epei me es odon bedan poluthemon ayoudai


The horses that draw me by will to the road of knowledge and guides the man who knows down the road of many cities.

I had a little help translating that from the book and wouldn’t have figured most of it on my own.

>>24022066
Wow you're smart I wish I was all up ons the Greek stuff.

>>24022079
Give me pointers. Was I actually close to what it means? I searched the Burnett translation of Parm and realized how free some translations are. It turns Hippoi into “carts.”

>>24022079
This is what Burnett has and I know it’s not right because it doesn’t have mares in it.

>The car that bears me carried me as far as ever my heart desired, when it had brought me and set me on the renowned way of the goddess, which leads the man who knows through all the towns.[2]

Does the Greek NT, as a very easy text to read, make for good extensive reading material if your overall goal with Greek is to read Homer and the Attic authors?

>>24022772
It won't hurt. Better would be to read Attic but anything better than nothing

>>24022793
As far as I'm aware there's nothing in Attic as easy as the NT

>>24022796
That is true yet the point still stands.
If you want something easy to start with NT won't hurt.
If you really want to read Attic you should read as much Attic as possible.

>>24014599
Go to churchlatin
It's more expensive but it's actually quality. I can vouch for them, use mine every day

>>24019755
Not strictly true, some do represent every phonemic distinction. But also just because all are defective to some extent doesn't mean they're all equally so.

I want to learn Ancient Greek

>>24023394
Why?

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>κρείσσων παρ᾽ Ἅιδᾳ κεύθων ὁ νοσῶν μάταν,
>ὃς ἐκ πατρῴας ἥκων γενεᾶς ἄριστος
>πολυπόνων Ἀχαιῶν,
>οὐκέτι συντρόφοις
>ὀργαῖς ἔμπεδος, ἀλλ᾽ ἐκτὸς ὁμιλεῖ.

>>24023425
Sorry did I say something wrong

Genuinely find Xenophon quite difficult...why is he regarded as the Caesar equivalent in Greek?

>>24023615
Not at all, it's just a good question to think about whenever we want to do things.

>>24023615
He's trying to bump his own thread. Don't mind him.

>>24023707
I don't think so

>>24023676
he isn't too difficult but if you are jumping to it from a textbook I share your feeling, it's still kind of a shock and I remember finding the dialogues of the Anabasis challenging to read as well

>>24009061
kefu>kyou>jinri

new Iliad reading dropped, wadda y'all think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1KkZH6hWyU
I do like the pronunciation, not sure I like the imho overtly "solemn" or idk how to call it recitation/style

>>24014599
If you want to read the vulgate Bible, just go here: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0060%3Abook%3DGenesis

>>24024188
Why did he say θ as 't' instead of 'th'?

>>24024299
φθχ were originally aspirated stops before shifting to fricatives. φ, π and β would have had the sound of the P in "pin", the P in "spin", and the B in "about" respectively.

>>24024299
Theta is paired with other consonant sounds sometimes and the rules change.

Caesar is such a jackass and writing in 3rd person is so cheesy. I can't believe people bought into his bullshit lmao. All of De Bello Gallico is like
>Caesar, because he is a fair and kind and excellent leader, made all the perfectly correct decisions that led to the greatest possible outcome in every situation he found himself in. Everyone loved and celebrated him because he was so awesome in every way. We killed over 200,000 enemy soldiers with just a group of 10 roman children and a couple of stones and then everyone bowed down and said Caesar is the greatest.

>>24024307
>φθχ were originally aspirated stops before shifting to fricatives

What makes you think so? I thought IE languages would have had to start off with the reverse situation?

>>24024313
The square of stops only applies when theta falls in second position. If it precedes a letter it should not change.

>>24024367
Well, the fact that the Romans transliterated them as PH, TH, CH is one obvious sign- if φ had been pronounced the same as F, they probably would have transcribed it as such. The fact that πτκ often become φθκ before a rough breathing is another clue. Not to mention the writings from Greek grammarians grouping them as stops. That's just what I know off the top of my head; I'm not an expert in Greek historical phonology or anything.

>>24024374
>they probably would have transcribed it as such

Which Romans? Where did they transliterate this way? The Romans lack a θ and a x sound, so they would have had to transcribe them that way regardless if they're fricative. The only area where this would make sense is the f = ph situation, but even then it's not obvious that this would be one way or the other, or merely a way of showing that it is Greek. If they did that at all, but again, could you show where this is done?

>Not to mention the writings from Greek grammarians grouping them as stops

Who? Where?

>>24024364
It is literally propaganda for borderline illiterate farmers and workers to read. The only reason anyone cares about it is because how easy it is to read. It is an easy entry to Latin because of that. It isn’t loved for its actual content or anything.

>>24024383
>Which Romans? Where did they transliterate this way?
In the spelling of Greek loanwords in Latin? Theologia, philosophia, etc.
>The Romans lack a θ and a x sound, so they would have had to transcribe them that way regardless if they're fricative
Or they'd borrow the letters like they did with Y and Z. Or approximate them as S and H or something.
>Who? Where?
I could go hunt down a specific citation if you really want but do you really think assuming you know more than the people who have dedicated their lives to studying this is the best use of your time?

>>24024387
>It is literally propaganda for borderline illiterate farmers and workers to read.
His aristocratic simplicity was even praised by Cicero, his political enemy. Retards man.

>>24024397
Almost all discussion of Caesar’s book is just mechanics of Latin if you search about it online. No one actually much cares about the actual content besides using it to learn to read Latin. It is literally “I am awesome and Germans are STUPID AND MEAN!!!” for several hundred pages

>>24024404
I wonder if there's some kind of reason why modern conceptions of ancient history differ from contemporary accounts..... Hmmmmmm.....

>>24024396
>Theologia
Which one?
>philosophia
Which one?
>etc
I can't tell if you're joking at this point.

>Or they'd borrow the letters like they did with Y and Z. Or approximate them as S and H or something.

I'm beginning to think you're an idiot, making stuff up as it strikes the fingers. The Latins did borrow letters from Greek. The whole reason they cannot borrow X from Attic is because they already borrowed X from Doric, where the X makes a 'ks' sound like ξ / Ξ.

If anything, this is evidence against fricative theory.

>I could go hunt down a specific citation

Yes, obviously, and this should have been your very first move. Really you should just have dropped the source and not wasted time blabbering because now you sound like a moron.

>I could go hunt down a specific citation

Everyone with a correct idea is just someone. Besides, they're not here arguing- you are. And you're not doing very well.

>"I have noticed that Greeks often try to argue against the reconstructed pronunciation, especially wrt φ θ χ which are fricatives in their view just as in modern Greek."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AncientGreek/comments/u6gdsj/pronunciation_of_%CF%86_%CE%B8_%CF%87/

Every fricative assumer is just a modern Greek with employing their natural Turko-Arab predilection. I can't help but imagine that you are also a hairy, smelly, swarthy little psuedo-Turk.

>>24024404
>It is wise counsel to start with a survey of more or less contemporary testimonia when approaching an ancient author’s style. In Caesar’s case, they highlight his “faultless” Latinity, ascribed to instilled practice, diligent studies, and careful word choice.
>Cognizance of these pronouncements is all the more appropriate as they have, to this day, determined later views, and possibly none more than Cicero’s polysemous praise of them as nudi . . . recti et venusti, omni ornatu orationis tamquam veste detracta
You think in reddit memes.

>>24024415
>Which one?
...the words "theologia" and "philosophia", which transcribe θ and φ as "th" and "ph"? Surely you don't dispute that's how those words are spelled in Latin?
>The Latins did borrow letters from Greek. The whole reason they cannot borrow X from Attic is because they already borrowed X from Doric, where the X makes a 'ks' sound like ξ / Ξ.
So find some other way to work around the issue. Add an extra stroke to one, like they did with C and G.
>Every fricative assumer is just a modern Greek with employing their natural Turko-Arab predilection.
Aspirated stops shifting to fricatives is not that uncommon a development, you don't need to appeal to foreign influence to explain it. And it pretty clearly happened a pretty long time ago. Hell, Doric probably had fricative θ in Classical times, since we have Attic plays transcribing Doric words with θ in them with σ in their eye dialect.

>>24024430
>...the words
I asked for a text and you showed me spelling of standard Latin. Yeah, your IQ matches my expectations and those typically holding fricative theories.

>Surely you don't dispute that's how those words are spelled in Latin?

I'm still wondering why you think I would. As has been mentioned, the Latins already pulled what they found useful for themselves from Greek. What you're really doing is introducing Latinisms into Greek by assuming that Greek must sound like Latin if the Latins spelled foreign words their native way. That's obviously absurd and there's no retort you could come up with to explain how that makes a lick of sense so save yourself time and don't bother.

So find some other way to work around the issue. Add an extra stroke to one, like they did with C and G.

If we had a time machine you could take that up with them.

>Aspirated stops shifting to fricatives is not that uncommon a development

You were quick to assume what they were, but didn't present a real reason for thinking it. Your logic was "Latins spelled foreign words this way, so that must be how the foreigners meant it".

>And it pretty clearly happened a pretty long time ago

That's my beef: we would expect soft f, the th, and a breathy kh out of the three based on IE developments.

>since we have Attic plays transcribing Doric words with θ in them with σ in their eye dialect.

....Okay you know I'm going to ask. Which one? Link it with the line items.

>Hell, Doric probably had fricative θ in Classical times, since we have Attic plays transcribing Doric words with θ in them with σ in their eye dialect.

And this is back to square one. Basically you're saying:
>Latin did not have a th sound
>therefore Greek when written in Latin did not have a th sound
>therefore it did not exist in Attic Greek
>which means that Dorics did not have it either

So you're getting your Attic from Latin, and then using that incorrect Attic to extrapolate Doric.

Also, I think you meant tau, not theta.
glossa = glotta, thalassa = thalatta

The use of sigma's were used in Koine and Ionic too. In Doric that letter is called "san", not sigma.

But now that I know this thread is for wrong information I know what to expect.

>>24024437
>I asked for a text and you showed me spelling of standard Latin.
Yes, because those are instances of those transcriptions in Latin. Do you want me to cite a specific text that uses those words? You can take your pick.
>Yeah, your IQ matches my expectations and those typically holding fricative theories.
I think we got confused somewhere along the line, I'm not the one who thinks they were always fricatives. I agree they were aspirated stops to begin with.

>>24024444
>because those are instances of those transcriptions in Latin

You missed the point. You're using Latin pronunciation to judge how Greek is pronounced and blaming the Latins for not adopting more Greek letters. All that tells us is that the Latins did not use those letters. The fact they put an 'h' in the spelling probably indicates they intended to mimic the Greek accent and not impose their own. In fact, the use of the rough breathing when spelling rho probably indicates that rhoticity was used and the Greeks did not roll or trill their r's.

>I think we got confused somewhere

I could have said anti-fricative. Either way we both have theories about fricatives and aspirate developments.

I'm still working through Familia Romana but how much of a vocabulary climb should I expect if I manage to complete the Caesar reader and then wish to read the full Commentarii de Bello Gallico?

>>24024453
>In fact, the use of the rough breathing when spelling rho probably indicates that rhoticity was used and the Greeks did not roll or trill their r's.
Eh? How do you figure?
>Either way we both have theories about fricatives and aspirate developments.
What exactly is your theory?

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>Patientia cum sensu: Latinitas classica non te "buttfuckat" nisi eam tamquam inimicam spectes. Potest fieri amica, sed tempore et labore indiget.

chatGPT made a verb out of buttfuck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfwCaZsZp5Q

Are there any good books out there for verse composition (for either Latin or Greek)?

Particularly interested in ones that focus on epic hexameter, but other metres are fine too.

>>24024188
>2 hours of theater fag hamming and emoting
Good pronunciation maybe but no thanks

>>24024853
Califf - A Guide to Latin Meter and Verse Composition
An introduction to Greek verse composition, with exercises, by A. Sidgwick and F.D. Morice
also see
http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/vc/
I have the Califf book, it is quite thorough. Would supplement all verse composition with Halporn, Otswald and Rosenmeyer - The Meters of Greek and Latin Poetry. Excellent handbook covering virtually all metrical forms you will encounter. Highly recommended.

how much do I have to learn if I wanna study ancient greek? I don't think I will have problems with grammar, but Im afraid of learning an enormous amount of words + different aspects.

>>24024188
I like it. I hate the drone-like recitations that are so common.

>>24024188
Damn this video blew up. I wonder if some classics influencer shouted it out. He usually doesn't get this many views, especially this quickly.

>>24025233
lexicon is the always, for any language, the real wall to climb to go from dabbling to fluency or close to fluency, so....

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>>24025271
>2.2k views
>blew up
classics, kek

>>24025329
at least when you learn english you don't have to memorize 6 forms of every verb

>>24025419
believe it or not verb forms are only an issue at the beginning, you quickly get the hang of them. like the other guy said lexicon will be the eternal issue

>>24024893
>Halporn, Otswald and Rosenmeyer - The Meters of Greek and Latin Poetry

Is this an introductory glance, or a definitive resource for anyone interested in Greek and Latin verse?

>>24025233
Seeing a word used in context repeatedly can help to internalize it. There's also Anki or similar programs if a word just won't stick.

Dropping my Sanskrit reader here in case anyone finds any use out of it.
https://archive.org/details/nalopakhyanam-i-v-reader

>>24025948
How do you know which words to gloss and which to not or do you gloss them all?
Is there a frequency list available for Sanskrit?

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Goddamn it I want to learn Classical Chinese again
I decided to do some reading on the Zuo Zhuan edition I downloaded and I didn't realise it was bilingual and seeing the text that I couldn't understand on the page made me want to study it again

>>24025972
All first-time vocab is glossed.

>>24025331
May far-shooting Apollo forever keep the rabble away

>>24026288
Hey, he is A-pollon. May he live up to his name!

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>>24025725
Somewhere in the middle. It is available through the usual channels and fairly small though dense. Here is a sample from the section on Greek hexameter.

>>24026411
get off the Persian herbs Plato

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>moder Latin translator of the Greek counterpart uses -ier infinite ending

I'm struggling to understand why incipio is in the subjunctive here:

si immensum imperii corpus stare ac librari sine rectore posset, dignus eram a quo res publica inciperet.

>>24028003
because posset is; it's an hypothetic construction, usually both protasis and apodosis have the same mood and tense; imperfect subjunctive because it's, I forget the exact term, less than real i.e not a realistic hypothesis
the meaning though seems clear enough, if a huge imperial body could be sustained and stand without an autocrat, (at least) I was a worthy person from which the republic would've took off

>>24028003
Because it's a hypothetical.

>>24028079
>>24028113
thanks, what threw me was thinking the eram must be the apodosis with inciperet being subordinate to that because of the relative pronoun.

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Mr. heavy American accent wants to teach us about languages again

>>24028232
If we had to put all of the language Youtubers in an arena and have them talk/duke it out, this guy would be near the top. Baldy and that pajeet that keeps saying 'noble ones' would be near the bottom.

>>24028244
Crawford's pronunciation is so inauthentic. You can tell it requires all of his mental capacities to produce a drilled r sound. I prefer Baldy and Simon Roper

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hello noble ones!

>>24028250
His r is fine. I think baldy over does his. It should be a trill, not a roll.

>>24028259
Both can't even do the retracted s

>>24028274
There was no retracted s in IE languages. It's incidental when it comes at the back of a word and you shift the tongue too early. It's a semitic thing exclusively.

>>24028277
sauce? Icelandic, Spanish, Greek, Dutch, very likely Old High German too, all have it

>>24028283
It's incidental to accents. Technically, none of them have it standard. It's just something that happens when a word ends in 's' but you're speaking to quickly and you have to make a closed sound, occasionally. Most Germans never make the sound at all, as they shift toward more sibilant sounds altogether. The Germans love sibilance so much they have two letters for two different sibilant sounds, though most Germans only hear the one nowadays.

I'm not sure why you're asking for sauce. You're asking me to prove a negative.

>>24028301
>too*

But to add, the German s and eszett were probably like the difference in the s and c sound in pinyin, where the sz was actually a ts. Keep in mind the actual retracted 's' no one really makes. Hebrew and Arab speakers don't even pull their tongues back far enough to suppress the sibilance.

>>24028301
It's definitely standard in Dutch, Icelandic and Greek. Those people can often barely pronounce the English s

>>24028307
In modern Greek they come the closest. It's certainly an innovation. There's no indication ancient Greek had it, because if they did they would have developed a letter around it.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Icelandic has a retracted 's'. It's only sibilant. Both Dutch and Icelandic actually use sibilant 'z' sounds as well. Are you picking the worst examples as bait or something?

>>24028318
I doubt you can hear the difference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75WFTHpOw8Y
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_phonology
Definitely retracted.

>>24028330
The first retracted 's' she made was in "bacause". Notice her normal 's' are super-sibilant, to the point she's making something like the ts sound.

The reason you think that's a retracted 's' is because she's actually trying to make the "th" sound. That's integral to the transformation of Germanic languages, where s and th were replaced. Tolkien actually mimics that in his language development system, where Sauron used to be called Thauron.

What you're witnessing isn't an intentional thing in her Icelandic, it's an accidental thing in her English. She was training herself to anticipate an older Germanic phoneme that had been replaced in English much later.

>>24028343
It might sound weaker word-initial, but it is still apical/retracted https://youtu.be/A2h87p-AQnM?si=lJfOqzfSa_aIPRH4
About German: Why do you think Swabians use a sh sound for /s/? And why do you think Standard German pronounces Stein with an [ʃ] too? It used to be apical in medieval times, and it still is in Dutch https://youtu.be/t3H5D-XxPrI?si=WPgJt4NomMtA9dh5&t=99

>>24028258
>t. Sicilian moor

>>24028353
I can't watch your first video because it says it's blocked in my country on copyright grounds.

If you're talking about her mis-predicting an 's' for a 'th', this was just covered. If you took a Goth or a Saxon from the day they would make the same mistake based on anticipating a pattern that changed. It's not a retracted 's' she was going for- it was something else entirely. You can even hear her catch herself.

>About German: Why do you think Swabians use a sh sound for /s/?

"Sh" is unrelated and different. If you look at Semitic languages that have a retracted 's' like semkat, they also have letters for the 'sh', as in shin.

You're really trying to force this thing and I don't know why.

>>24028304
>like the difference in the s and c sound in pinyin, where the sz was actually a ts
I'm not sure what distinction you're making here, since pinyin <c> is /t͡sʰ/.

>>24028442
>since pinyin <c> is /t͡sʰ/.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLVbpfZDuqE

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tc2YAh00AXQ

I even posted "ts" above. Are you trying to sound like you're in the conversation for the sake of it?

>>24028410
I don’t get it, maybe you can’t hear it properly. Just know that it’s ‘mainstream’ consensus that retracted apical s was or is standard in Dutch, Icelandic, Old High German, Middle High German Central/Northern Spanish and Greek. It’s the reason why German and English have Ship/Schiff, and why Swabian has isch instead of is. Afaik, it also helps explaining rhotacism of apical z to r in Germanic and Latin

>>24028453
...I'm sorry, I misread your "where" as "whereas" and also somehow forgot "eszett" was called that because it was literally a ligature of s+z. I'm a dumbass.

>>24028455
I can hear the sounds they're making just fine. You're the one with the problem. I asked you for a retracted s and you gave me a 'th' and a 'sh'. You have no idea what you're talking about and you showed me two dudes in their living room making up shit about classical Greek off the cuff as they went.

Maybe this whole internet thing was a mistake because it seems to propagate stupidity.

>is standard in Dutch, Icelandic, Old High German, Middle High German Central/Northern Spanish and Greek

Of these, it only appears in Greek and dialects of Spanish. It is not in Germanic whatsoever and this has already been proven above. What you're calling a retracted 's' is either a th or sh sound-completely different thing.

>It’s the reason why German and English have Ship/Schiff, and why Swabian has isch instead of is

Again, the "sh" sound is not a retracted 's'. Even languages that explicitly identify the retracted 's', in the semitic family, do not confuse the two. Repeating this point: languages with a retracted 's' also have a separate letter for 'sh'.

Do you have money riding on this or something?

>>24028491
Not that anon but there's an unsourced claim that it's in Scandinavian languages and Icelandic on wikipedia so maybe it is a normal claim to make on the internet
Idk even know what a retracted s is though

>>24028491
I don’t think you ever heard somebody speaking Icelandic or Dutch before, but in case you have, you might have trouble identifying the apical s sound. Scholars agree with me btw

>>24028499
>Idk even know what a retracted s is though
If you take your tongue and pull it to the back of your throat while making an 's' sound: you're retracting your tongue back to make the sound. It's actually extremely rare. Even languages that formally have it don't always use it. Arabs most of the time will just make a softer 's' sound instead. Practically no one uses it.

>>24028491
I never claimed Swabian or German have a retracted s lol. But an older retracted s in medieval times explains quite well why some varieties end up with the laminal s and others with a sh sound…

>>24028501
When you say "apical s" four different things come to mind. Apical just means tipped. Explain where you think the tongue is going with this version of 's'. Scholars can't agree with you if you don't even know what you're talking about.

>>24028507
You just claimed it was the reason for Germans having the "sh" sound. Don't blame you for backing out of that claim since it undermined your own credibility entirely.

>But an older retracted s in medieval times explains quite well

It actually doesn't. It's not like you evolve a retracted s before making sibilant s or a sh sound. It's the other way around: you have to go out of your way to make the retracted 's'. It's not something natural to most anyone. Even languages that call for it don't use it in practice.

>>24028519
It is the reason for the German sh sound in ‘Schule’, ‘Stein’ or ‘Stuhl’. Correct. I’m talking about the apical or retracted s sound, that everyone seems to agree about except you. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_fricative#Voiceless_alveolar_sibilant

>>24028541
>It is the reason for the German sh sound

No it isn't. The two sounds are not related. You're confusing yourself because sh is non-sibilant. In your mind these things are close, but they are not, and while many languages have the sh sound, very few have the retracted s.

You say "correct"- but then failed to explain where the tongue goes in your version, as instructed. You did not understand the assignment. This can only be taken to mean that you do not actually know where it goes, as apical could imply several different things.

I'm not sure why you posted a Wikipedia link. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and don't have any actual evidence to support your claims. My advice is to find an academic you trust, send them an email with our conversation in excerpt, and have them explain it to you. You, for whatever reason, seem to think we're somewhere near equal footing on this idea. Let us be clear: you are totally ignorant of the facts and it's painfully obvious.

A retracted s is not a th. It is not a sh. It does not need to exist in order to create a sibilant s or a sh sound. It is incredibly rare in practice. Few people make it intentionally even in languages that formally designate it.

If you want more information on the retracted 's', look into Semitic languages such as Syriac, Hebrew, or Aramaic. If you're interested more in the development of the Germanic th and sh, going down the old English to Gothic pipeline will do you some good. Plenty of 19th century scholars have reams dedicated to both subjects. Adieu.

>>24028591
I’m not a linguist, but I’m interested in dead languages. I’ve heard about the retracted s sound many times, often in relation to Germanic and Romance languages. Wikipedia confirms everything I claimed so far, and so did my book on Old High German. To my ears, it’s obvious that Icelandic and Dutch have that exact sound (not just for th). You’re the first person I met who says the opposite

I wish I could study a dead language under someone. I wish I could go somewhere to learn these things

>>24028621
I am a dutch speaker, what is the retracted s supposed to sound like and do you know a word in dutch which would have this sound? I can't really follow the discussion. I'm not choosing a side in this discussion, but I did however find a paper that claimed it exists (or at least a bit of a retraction) in dutch dialects https://dspace.library.uu.nl/bitstream/handle/1874/390945/s3.pdf?sequence=1.

>>24028817
If you don't have the self-drive to study them yourself then you will never succeed even if you had a teacher

>>24028858
from your paper
>We hypothesized that there is regional variation in the pronunciation of /s/
within the Dutch language area. Based on the original observation of Collins
& Mees (2003), we expected speakers from South Holland (Randstad)
to show a more retracted [s] (i.e. a more [ʃ]-like pronunciation of /s/)
than speakers from other regions, here West Flanders, Flemish Brabant,
Netherlands Limburg, and Groningen. [...] The analyses revealed that CoG values were significantly lower (consistent with more retraction) in the regions in the Netherlands (South Holland,
Limburg and Groningen) than in the Flemish regions (West Flanders and
Flemish Brabant)
That means your average /s/ in the Netherlands is retracted. I can confirm it, since I remember talking to a Dutch girl whose s sound felt weird to me as a German

>>24028877
I just don't think thats fair to say. I'm so desperate.

>>24028879
I know I can read. I looked at polymathy's video on the retracted s and I think that sound is indeed present in dutch dialects (certainly not all). Again take what i say with a grain of salt I dont understand the true retracted s sound and maybe that other anon has a more "strict" definition of what it is supposed to be.

is this the powerlifting general of /lit?/

>another 40 replies about retracted s
go read classics you fucking losers

>>24029061
>another
based

>>24028978
Yeah pretty much except without the tripfags who actually lift / translate

>>24028886
well get a tutor then, even just spending the money should motivate you, unless you are rich and can throw it away

>>24029113
I don't know how to do that and I have no money

hodie ego legi capitulum tertiumdecimum in quo sunt dies et menses et anni nam de tempore ordinando tractat, quamobrem iniucundum lectu. Quintus etiam in lecto aegrotus iacet dum mater Aemilia quando sol altissimus sit vel quando dies sint longissimi et cetera disserit. amplius scribere nolo.

>>24029071
Translate? This is a thread for learning classical languages, not producing translations from them, why translate?

>>24029188
ut in utraque lingua te exerceas sicut Cicero admonuit

>>24029133
>I don't know how to do that
You aren't cut out for this. It's over.

>>24029416
Come on man. Please.

>>24029133
I never employed tutors myself so I don't know where I'd look for, if you have no money as I didn't myself, then pirate yourself some book and git gut son

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>>24028258
salvē

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>>24029157
ne praeterieris, adhuc ipse cum opus sit verba de temporibus reddere linguam haud in promptu habeo; si legam, facile teneo, si scribendum sit, aporior admodum

>>24030065
I can't learn from a computer I just don't work that way. I need a teacher

>>24030347
>spoonfeed me wahhhhh!

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>>24030347
>I need a teacher
>but I ain't got no money
well, shit

>>24030396
Its not that. I just can't do the whole computer autodidact thing. It just doesn't sink in

How difficult is the transition from attic to homeric greek? Supposing that I have enough attic knowledge to read e.g. Aristotle smoothly, will I need to pick up a grammar to understand Homer or should I just jump in?

>>24031038
not too hard imho, biggest obstacle to drudge through will be the lexicon, the grammar novelties aren't too difficult to get used to due to how repetitive Homer is in terms of constructions anyway
if you don't mind getting spoiled ahead, JACT has a book with a section on Homer that guides you through book 22 of the Iliad and that should set you straight to proceed by yourself

Apparently in Old Chinese they'd have suffixes to determine word classes
Would that have made reading Classical Chinese a lot easier?

I finished Familia Romana and Fabulae Faciles. I want to read real Latin now, debating between Caesar and the Vulgate Bible. Thoughts? I gather that Caesar will be easier, but the Vulgate will be more engaging, plus I've already read the Bible in English.

>>24031622
The Vulgate is easier than Caesar, though the latter is more pared down. DBG is written by several authors so you have to get used to more than one style.

>>24031639
>DBG is written by several authors
???

>>24031758
Caesar dictated his text to several scribes. He didn't pen it himself.

>>24031831
Scribes aren't writers. The bible also has way more writers (even if you reject some critical scholarship).

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What do you guys think about the Ecclesia Catholica, and of their efforts (or lack thereof, depending on your thoughts) to preserve and teach the classical languages?

>>24032084
The Catholic church butchered the classical world. That's all I have to say about the matter.

>>24031639
quanto maxime novi, est Commentarii de Bello Civili neque de Bello Gallico qui est per multibus scriptum auctoribus .

>>24029244
What text/passage are you referring to?

χαχα μιλάω νέα ελληνικά

>>24030347
So get a physical book. Your local library probably has some.

>>24031132
A lot of the suffixes in question were not explicitly written. For example 數 is either *sroʔ "to count" or *sros "number" (or *sroːɡ "often") by context, and then those suffixes left behind differences in tone, so in modern Mandarin pronunciation it's pronounced shǔ when it means "count" and shù when it means "number" (and shuò when it means "often").

>>24031622
I recommend the vulgate. Specifically I'd recommend starting with Mark; It's the shortest gospel. You'll encounter a few unfamiliar words and phrases. But once you know them, it will make translating other books a lot easier.

>>24032166
And preserved its works through the tireless efforts of thousands of monks

>>24032084
What a hideous goblin, completely dysgenic

>>24032884
*selectively preserved

Do you prefer to buy new or used books (either in good or like new condition) when it comes to some classics you plan on keeping forever? I'm just getting started and this adds up quite fast, much faster than I anticipated, but I have a weird issue where I must buy new and get raped for it. If it was modern or generic fiction, then I'd buy the most beaten up books.

>>24032166
How?

>>24032912
i couldn't care less. if it isn't utterly sexfucked it's good enough for me.
>what if it doesn't last that long
buy a new copy for 7 cents, but usually not being a monkey should prevent you from even getting into that situation

>>24032909
Nope but I'm sure your high-school teacher thinks you're smart

>>24032912
Used. For Classics the best quality books were printed in the past and it's significantly cheaper. Lots of titles are out of print; if you only buy new you'll be missing out on a ton of great writing.

Why is the roman alphabet so ugly and brutalist
I wish some kind of Asian style alphabet took over instead or at least that English had something better...
Like a Boustrophedon one

>>24034043
Gothic and carolingian script are peak aesthetic, especially with medieval Germanic languages.

>>24032308
Haha something of Greek

How close was I?

>>24031639
>>24032633
Thanks friends.

>>24034043
pleb taste

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>>24034043
>West BAD
>East GOOD
tard

>>24034184
I just think its looks nice I don't understand.

>>24034191
it what

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>>24034043
>Roman alphabet is ugly and brutalist
>Boustrophedon isn't

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Where might Latin and Ancient Greek fall on these charts?

>>24034468
Don't you just prove my point there?

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>>24032308
ὢ πόποι

>>24035360
No because that text isn't Roman, it is Greek
What boustrophedon did you have in mind? Do you know what boustrophedon means?

Well /clg/ bros after about a year and a half of studying Latin I've finally realized that... there's just nothing I really want to read in Latin. I was more interested in the learning process than anything else I guess, but now I'm over it. It was fun and gave me something to do while. Probably could've done something more productive but it is what it is.

>>24035853
Have you read Aeneid before? In any language? I feel like the only reason someone wouldn't enjoy it is if they didn't have a soul

>>24007943
I know this general is dedicated to classical languages, but do you guys know a mega with Russian or Amharic?

>>24035752
Well I'm not going to talk to you if you're just going to be a dick about it

>>24036129
have you tried on /int/'s /lang/

>>24037082
now ask each one why with a brief explanation

>oh hey /clg/ huh, been a long while since i last went there, let me take a peek
>its still full of retards arguing about pronuncation

>>24035356
jeez wtf is with Italian
hard so say about those ancient languages, I don't even see a comparable highly synthetic IE language on the list

>>24036709
i totally forgot about /lang/. Thanks Anon!

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>>24007943
Good day anons, I would greatly appreciate advice, particularly from Australian anons (or those that know the situation here).

My official academic background is a BA(Hons) in Psychology, and subsequent research work therein. However, I have been a writer, and reading with particular interest in Ancient Civilisations (phil/hist/poetry etc.) about my whole life. All translations.

My interests, and the understanding I desire, necessitate a pursuit of Classical Languages, Philology, and such no matter what my primary vocation is. Why not kill two birds with one stones and pursue as a career?

Would I be looking at doing a full BA or a more customised program (one professor seemed to think this might be more appropriate but their faculty is currently on break). Postgrad? Nationally or internationally? Studying internationally would certainly be of great interest, if I could financially manage it.

If any of you gentlemen can offer any guidance, I'm all ears.

>>24035356
Bits per second probably has most to do with the number of possible syllables, or possibly morphemes.
So Ancient Greek, with many possible consonant clusters and diphthongs and a pitch accent besides, would be very high. Latin would be lower.

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Any of you studying Classics as postgrads?

I'm coming to the end of my undergrad Classics degree and I don't feel like I've satiated my desire to study. I know there's no money in it, but all I really desire is to have enough money to feel secure with sensible spending.

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>>24035853
You’ll most likely get interested in reading something in Latin at some point. Latin is by far the most important language to know if you are interested in reading any Western primary sources from the Roman Era through the enlightenment.

>>24039493
What do you want to do for a living? With an MA and a willingness to travel you can teach Latin at the high school level.
Bear in mind you can always continue studying on your own. The foundation you have received in getting an undergrad degree gives you a great advantage.

Koine Greek and Pictographic Hebrew are the best biblical language (s). Aramaic can get dunked on ngl

>>24011107
Room temperature IQ.

Does anyone know if there's any greek theatre productions of greek classics like this
https://youtu.be/mdv3vkECqXA

>>24028244
Who is Baldy? Luke Ranieri?

>>24031622
Start with John. It is the easiest book in both the Vulgate and the Greek original.

>>24039493
I’m an Oxbridge Byzantinist at doctoral level. Worst decision I ever made.

>>24039657
calvus capillatus

>>24039686
Is this a languagetuber? Because ‘Bald Hairy’ isn’t helping me otherwise.

>>24039622
How? He's right

>>24007943
hoc tua

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I mean I don't even know why I care but I had corrected the obvious mistake in https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%91%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82

i.e ΑΙΑΣ being reported as the actor speaking, who has already fucking died already at that point of the tragedy, can't be the one speaking, but it's rather part of the previous speech by ΤΕΚΜΗΣΣΑ, not to mention it doesn't even make sense otherwise
I confirmed it looking at other sources(e.g https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0011.tlg003.perseus-grc2:940-972) but some clown resetted it to pic related again

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>>24039773
this is how it should be, but I don't feel like even arguing in modern greek with some retard who doesn't even know the text

>>24039725
No he isn’t. He assumes that there was ever a moment in time when ancient Greek texts could not be understood. Greek is not Akkadian.

>>24028250
Who is Baldy? ScorpioMartianus? Simon Roper is the OE guy right?

>>24007943
Anyone else here learning Grabar? Thomson is so difficult to use and Mondon isn’t much better. How so you get extensive reading practice? Using the Zohrab bible? Are there any Enflish-Classical Armenian bilingual texts?

Redpill me on Syriac literature, is it worth learning over Arabic?

>>24039806
correct

join /lang/ on /int/. we need more anons

>>24040648
No way, /lang/ is a circlejerk. Most of you won't even discuss grammar even when asked.

>>24040472
Depends on what you are interested in. There is very little historiography, but a lot of hagiography, liturgy, poetry. Some philosophy and a lot of theology.

I personally went for Arabic - plenty of history written in it (my chief interest). Much larger textual corpus, lets you look at both Islamic and Christian perspectives (there were plenty of Christians who wrote in Arabic) and then if you learn it, you have a strong base for Syriac and Hebrew.

>>24028244
Terrible take. For Latin and Greek, Ranieri should be near the top. Rumak, Alcor, Found in Antiquity, Satura Lanx - all top tier too. Agreed on Metatron or whatever he calls himself though. Megapseud.

>>24039679
>Byzantinist

yeah, there's your problem.

>>24040739
>Ranieri should be near the top
He's damn near the worst. I thought for years his Latin accent was a joke he was putting on, like a meme he thought was funny and no one else did. Don't get me started on Greek. He clearly has no idea what he's doing but he's going to make shit up on the fly anyways. The clown had the nerve to make up his own pronunciation system (lol) after a year of study.

>>24040771
prove it and give examples

>>24040776
Prove what? I get you're trying to bump your thread but come on now. Don't be a lazy ass

>>24040780
>>24040771
what part about his historical pronunciation is a joke? give examples and name a more likely alternative

I think this guy just has a beef with Ranieri, not the first time I see him seething about his purported errors in pronunciation without explaining them. I don't give a shit about Ranieri's own idiosyncratic stuff or boasting, he constantly references where he is getting this stuff from, i.e, Sydney Allen et al. , if there's an error, you have to rather reproach the latter's work.

>>24040771
I spent a year at the Vivarium Novum and Miraglia + Magisters Gerardus, Eusebius, Julianus and Aemilius all think highly of Ranieri and his efforts. If Miraglia praises your Latin and Gerardus your Greek, you're doing things right.

Sure, he self-promotes - but that's part and parcel of the way he earns his living. It's not a problem with his command of Latin or Greek.

Your posts read like those of a hat-tipping Redditor who has read ten chapters of LLPSI and would rather argue _about_ Latin and Greek than actually learn them, and who hates to see his special 'intellectual' pursuits popularised and made more accessible. Ranieri may be bald, but you are malding.

>>24040922
Agreed. He references Allen, Adams, Chahoud etc. etc. I don't think for any of his pronunciation schemes he has done anything more than synthesise existing scholarship and summarise it in a way usable for those learning the languages.

>>24040770
Byzantine studies aren't the problem - I'd rather do the Grundlagenforschung on rarely studied texts than gobble 5th C BC Athenian knob for the millionth time. Academia itself was the mistake.

>>24040978
>Magisters Gerardus, Eusebius, Julianus and Aemilius
kek larp

>>24041010
Stay jealous you fag. You'll never have lived at the Villa Falconieri.

>>24041032
>t. Discipulus Cicero

Old norse has the dutch g pronunciation for some words like "dags", I feel vindicated!

>>24039695
you're an oxymoron

>>24040648
I sometimes do when there's challenges and they aren't too modern-ish to work with.
Maybe we should have challenges here too sometimes.

>>24042205
There used to be, I did several and at least one other anon did as well. Few if any bothered to reply and half the time it was to bitch about the challenge

>>24040978
>Magisters
bruh

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trying to get Grok to generate some ancient Greek vase styled pictures and some of the results are hilarious

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>>24035853
Now learn Medieval and Neo-Latin, since that's where all the interesting stuff is.

Κύων θηρευτικὸς λαγωὸν συλλαβών, τοῦτον ποτὲ μὲν ἔδακνε, ποτὲ δὲ αυ̣τοῦ τὰ χείλη περιέλειχεν. Ὁ δὲ ἀπαυδήσας ἔφη πρὸς αὐτόν· «Ἀλλ’, ὦ οὗτος, παῦσαί με καταδάκνων ἢ καταφιλῶν, ἵνα γνῶ πότερον ἐχθρὸς ἢ φίλος μου καθέστηκας.»

Πρὸς ἄνδρα ἀμφίβολον ὁ λόγος εὔκαιρος.

ad verbum:
A hunting dog, having caught a hare, alternately bit it and licked its lips over it. The hare, exasperated, said to him: "Enough of this! Stop either biting me or kissing me, so that I may know whether you are my enemy or my friend."

This story is aptly directed to the ambiguous man.

ad sensum:
A Hound having started a Hare on the hill-side, pursued her for some distance: at one time biting her with his teeth as if he would take her life, and at another time fawning upon her, as if in play with another dog. The Hare said to him, "I wish you would act sincerely by me, and show yourself in your true colours. If you are a friend, why do you bite me so hard? if an enemy, why do you fawn on me?"

They are no friends whom you know not whether to trust or to distrust.

Which translation style do you like more?

>>24043373
second one I think pushes it too far for my own tastes, I prefer a translation that doesn't go too far ad verbum as to sound clunky in the target language by trying to imitate the original too strictly, some leeway is good, but at the same time tries to stay as close as possible to the original
but that's me

>>24043373
Wow that second one is very liberal

>>24007943
What are the best books for drilling grammar or best ways? I've been struggling with subjunctives and the perfect passive when reading. I'm also struggling with vocabulary, but I think that will always be an issue. Syntax is okay. I've starting doing all the exercises in the Intensive course, but I'm not sure what else I should do.

>>24043589
you mean the forms themselves or how they are used? for the forms, I did enjoy using some online drilling tools, albeit you could do it even on pen and paper
e.g https://magistrula.herokuapp.com/latin
for the use, well, I think just more reading is needed generally

>>24043589
The Familia Romana exercises book has a lot of content for drilling.

>>24042227
Sī Latīne scrībere voluissem, ‘magistrī’ scrībissem.

>>24043339
Niger mī.

>>24043373
The second I’d say is too far removed from the Greek to really qualify as a translation, IMO. If I was reading a translation and went back to check the text, I’d feel very misled and wouldn’t use the translation again.

>>24043589
Are you using LLPSI? Read and re-read every chapter until you know them backwards, ideally with audio to shadow/listen to. Do the Exercitia Latina (like the other anon suggests) and Carfagni’s Nova Exercitia (these are designed to drill explicitly grammar points left implicit by Familia Romana and not covered by Orberg’s Exercitia). It gets quite boring but it is a good way to solidify your grasp. You could also go through something like Bradley’s Arnold after finishing LLPSI - really good way to build your mental representation of the language.

>>24044182
Ut scienter latine scripsisti nomina, ita constat tibi non seponenda grammaticae latinitatis praecepta ubi minime fit, anglice vel aliter.

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>>24044283
Contemerābō tamen praecepta grammaticae Latīnae quemadmodum volō, sī Latīne Anglīceque vel aliter scrībam. Nōn decet mihi mē iustificāre tibi. Remanē īrātus.

>>24044521
Sane, non potest se temerando continere qui temeratus sit.

>>24044182
>>24044283
>>24044521
>>24044553
How do I into composition?

>>24035356
Wasn't this study flawed because it used fairly literal translations of the same text instead of more natural ways of expressing the same thoughts in the various languages?

>>24039603
What do you mean, Pictographic Hebrew?

>>24044559
I wouldn't know, sorry. I haven't practiced composition at all; I just read. My written Latin is likely mediocre.

>>24044559
Follow a composition course like Bradley’s Arnold. Do the Pēnsa in LLPSI especially Pēnsum C and in the Exercitia Latīna any exercises that take the form of questions to be answered - use them as writing prompts. Join a Latin chatroom - discord has plenty. Trying to speak, even if just by yourself really helps.

>>24044563
>flawed
Maybe. I just saw it on xitter, blindly accepted it's truth and posted it here.

>>24044583
>Do the Pēnsa in LLPSI especially Pēnsum C and in the Exercitia Latīna any exercises that take the form of questions to be answered
do NOT do that
complete waste of time

>>24044596
Not at all. It encourages you to summarise in your own Latin sentences what you have read. This gives you something to practice writing about for which you should already have ingested the vocabulary.

But for the anon who asked’s benefit, what would you suggest they do that isn’t a waste of time?

>>24044597
- follow a course on composition
- read a lot of real Latin: increasing your vocabulary by reading and getting a feel of the language the way it is naturally meant to be written is more efficient than anything the pensae in LLPSI can offer

>>24044553
>Praecepta grammaticae Latīnae pārenda.
>Hās nūgās scrīpsit.

>>24044601
I agree with this but don’t see how the additional practice of doing the pēnsa (pēnsum, ī btw) is a waste of time for a beginner. Any and all avenues for output and input are worth taking.

>>24044613
>doing the pēnsa (pēnsum, ī btw)
see >>24044521

>>24044616
Quae patriciō sunt, nōn plebī.

>>24044616
Gottem lol

>>24044622
Samefag.

>>24044627
>he says as he cries out loud

>>24044631
I think I can live with the poor Latinity of some hypocrite on a Mongolian trugg-making imageboard.

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Which has a more interesting medieval literature - classical Armenian or Georgian?

>>24039629
I love this production. Sadly I don't know of any similar productions.

>>24043746
Honestly, I think LLPSI is bad for autodidacts. For adults, cracking open Wheelock and throwing yourself into more advanced Latin works better. My experience with LLPSI was a lot of rereading as I wasn't forcing myself to do enough paradigm memorization.

>>24044746
I think the best approach is to memorize the paradigms as you read LLPSI. Get Neumann’s College Companion alongside to read after you’ve first read a chapter for explicit grammar explanations.

Grammar translation works for only a tiny fraction of people - SLA studies are conclusive on this point. Moreover, enjoyment is essential as an autodidact - LLPSI has a pretty boring story but it has a story and keeps you in the target language at all times. Wheelock’s disjointed sentences and occasional scraps from Latin classics bore to tears. I’d put money on it that the number of people Wheelock has caused to give up the study of Latin is far greater than that of LLPSI users.

I agree with Carla Hurt (Found in Antiquity) that there is no ‘one true textbook’ and that we shouldn’t see LLPSI as this untouchable work of pedagogical perfecfion - it has plenty of issues (although her upset at the depiction of slavery is, I think, pretty retarded). But it is probably the best thing out there at the moment.

how do I into medieval/old french? I do not know french but I speak Portuguese and written French is no big deal. I am interested in it because of all the medieval BANGERS in french.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hg-Js9yggw

new
>>24045090
>>24045090

>>24044825
Maybe that's the case, but in my experience as an undergrad, wheelock got me ready to read authors quickly, whereas I spent years getting nowhere with LLPSI. Maybe it was just the motivation (I had done some Greek, and skipped to the 200 level Latin classes since I knew the professor)