SUCC Edition>Old:>>25027217>Recommended reading charts (Look here before asking for vague recs):https://mega.nz/folder/kj5hWI6J#0cyw0-ZdvZKOJW3fPI6RfQ/folder/4rAmSZxb>Archive:https://warosu.org/lit/?task=search2&search_subject=sffg>Goodreads:https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1029811-sffg
>>25037016since you brought it up how is now finished empire of the vampire trilogy?
The No-God
Ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, comrades and friends!Short story collections. You do read them, right?
>>25037160Deathbird Stories is kino
>>25037200I read it last year and did not like it one bit.
>>25037160>Short story collectionsLegally distinct from anthologies?
>>25037257An anthology is something with stories from multiple people, a collection is multiple stories from a single author
Second malazan book is rapidly falling apart and now is much worse than the first, especially the adventures of Deus Ex army. Maybe last 100 pages will fix things but i doubt that.
I keep thinking about how much I'd enjoy reading something, but I can't decide what to read.
>>25037270Well why not read The Bobby Dollar trilogy by Tad Williams?
>>25037276Never heard of those before, are they good? Might check them out.
>>25037267>there are actually people who dislike deadhouse gates
>>25037277>are they good?No, I recommended them to you because I hate you on a deep personal level and wish ill upon you in the form of bad books that are totally lame and gay.Yes they're good, anon. It's Tad Williams, nobody dislikes Tad. 2nd book's adventures in Hell are especially fun.
>>25037279>Dude we are all exhausted and are outnumbered 30 to 1 but this magical thing happens and we win>repeat 4 times
>>25037282Cool, thanks for the rec, will check them out now.
>>25037285This nigga seriously just steals books lmao
>>25037287YEAH BOI, FUCK THE INDUSTRY, I STRAIGHT HATE THEM AUTHORS
>>25037026Not bad, but a bit too much on the DRUGS DUDE side. It's also modern for all the positive and negative that brings. I was surprised to see it has an illustrated edition, though.
>>25037289western books finally catching up to glorious zipang's light novels
Those Bakker passages the schizo was posting in last thread were highly embarrassing. I was never going to read the books, but I assumed they were at least competently written. I somehow think less, now, of Bakkerfags than I did before.
>>25037284What magical thing? Sappers? they all have proper setup before though. you could argue that trygalle guild is bullshit but by that point it doesn't matter anymore since they all die anyway
>>25037279Anon that's most people.
>Malazan, Malazan, Malazan>Bakker, Bakker, BakkerThere must be more to life
>>25037324Most bounce on the first book.
>>25037326Lets talk about Lem instead. Invincible is kino.
>>25037329Lem as in the guy who wrote Solaris?
>>25037319>Our magic works but theirs doesn't >They found a tribe that can use magic but we'll just casually kill their god>Sacrificing one horse gave our army superpowers>That one demon and assassin who accidentally helped them >trygalle guild is bullshitIt reads like a joke. And after that one of the tribes decides to fight for them for no real reason
>>25037331Yes.
>>25037160Three Moments of an Explosion is good
>>25037332It’s funny how your complaints contradict themselves. Enemies’ magic doesn’t work except it very clearly does as you just said lol>They found a tribe that can use magic but we'll just casually kill their godNot all gods are the same. A significant number are just ascended humans and they can absolutely be killed with something as mundane as a knife to the chest if caught vulnerable. power depends on worship. Gods tied to fundamental forces Death, Shadow, Light Sea...are incomparably stronger than the god of an obscure isolated tribeTrygalle Guild stuff explored in later books and that “random tribe” sticks with the Malazan army until the end of the main ten. Honor actually matters in this series shockingly enoughYes most of this is spoilers but given that you clearly aren’t planning to read further, I’ll say it out of spite :)
>>25037364I ain't reading all that, already tired from Deadhouse Gates.
>>25037372you don't need my validation bro. Feel free to drop the series any time
>>25037375>you don't need my validation broNobody asked for it bro.
>>25037364>Enemies’ magic doesn’t work except it very clearly does as you just said lolFor the first two thirds of the book opposing army is led by an extremely powerfull mage who can't use his magic at all because of unrelated fuckeryAnd i will read the next book, dunno who that other fag you are talking to is
>>25037312They are actually very well written
>>25037400Meds
Red Rising
>>25037467Sun Eater
>>25037026I read them all a few months ago. They are enjoyable enough slop but I think the ending will be very divisive. I like the vampires in it though. They are powerful, weird, otherworldly and interesting. Lots of unnecessary sex scenes too but they can be funny.
>>25037467Horse!
>>25037505... is going to get impregnated by her brother's clone to carry on their golden bloodline!
>>25037394Kamist Reloe did use magic at the start of the rebellion i think, the part where Duiker met Gesler, Stormy, and Truth, I’m not sure whether he used magic when the rebels were chasing Coltaine. But the setup in Deadhouse Gates is that the warrens were kind of… busy because of the Soletaken/Divers dog and cat fight. So it comes down to either using non-traditional magic not warren-based like the Wickan warlocks or being backed by a god like the Semk
>>25037372>>25037379Embarrassing. Get back to outer /lit/.
>>25037505Lysander!
>>25037480Correct. Where the FUCK is my Chantry War sequel series>>25037505Victra best girl
Just finished The Thousandfold Though.Why is Esmenet such a whore bakker bros
>>25037279Norwood V ahh looking unc
>>25037467PIERCE BROWN YOU PAKI WHERE THE FUCK IS RED GOD
>>25036997Thanks for this reply. For some reason I thought he tried using magic again at the end.When he said "It didnt understand, It didnt understand" and then later "Any price old teacher" I thought he was going to do something, like some final clever ploy for Achaiman to realize what happened. But he just kills himself I guess?The only reasoning I can come to here, is that he assumed he'd be tortured to reveal the secrets of the Gnosis otherwise.I just didnt know the Consult sought after the Gnosis so it didnt even cross my mind till now.It was funny and interesting in a sad way for him to realize that all his faith was a lie and that infact, the magicians he has formerly been inducted by were actually correct along. Sadder because he clearly has a disposition for the former, and even sadder that he does, because hes mentally weak
>>25037312>the schizowhats the deal with just calling everything you don't understand "schizo"
>>25037751ESL? He's calling the poster a schizo (he is), not the passages of text.
>>25037806yes i am aware of that.
>>25037636 death to pissander
Pierce Brown holds his appearances in cities where the tumblr girls are likely to be thicker
Books where its like a history book for the world or an encyclopedia?
>>25037860Sounds so boring that no one would ever write that
>>25037862Sounds so awesome that everyone should write that
>>25037860Always Coming Home by Le GuinFire and Blood by MartinFirst and Last Men by Stapledon
>>25037860fire and blood
Mushoku Tensei is the Japanese equivalent of the Thomas Covenant books. Prove me wrong.
>>25037701She's literally introduced as a literal, actual whore.
>>25037860The SilmarillionThe Gods of Pegana
>>25037873>First and Last Men by StapledonI love how Brits were writing these masterworks in 1930s while Americans could only write pulp.
>>25037026A few years ago I found the first book randomly in a library and picked it up because the cover looked really cool and I liked the sound of goth vampire fantasy shit, I guess I actually liked the story itself since I finished the entire book while retaining most of the plot in my memory, but I wasn't a huge fan of the writing style and it turned me off from continuing to read the rest. It felt so unnecessarily try-hard edgy with how much redundant cursing there was and etc. Very meanspirited and unpleasant characters too. Wasn't my thing in the end.>>25037289This was the version I found, the illustrations are absolutely lovely I'll admit.
>>25037934You're wrong because you think superficial similarities make two series alike when they couldn't be more different substantively.
>>25037957this
>>25037701She is a whore.Bakker basically has three archetypes for women in the second apocalypse, which is a deeply patriarchal society and cultureThe Waif, the Harlot and the HarridanHe is saying that in such a society women will for the most part end up being one of these three.
>>25037742No prob, enjoy. I just finished the trilogy myself here a couple days ago so it's very fresh in my mind right now. I hope you are enjoying it, personally I loved it.
>>25037751Newfags who came here around the year 2016 label everything they don't like or understand "schizo". It is not the only newfag buzzword that 2016ers specifically spam.
>>25037701Because author has a cuck fetish
>>25037160I've read some Algernon Blackwood this year, good stuff.
>>25038146"schizo" really started taking off during the 2020s in the midst of covidits ironic that normies gravitate to it so, after the freak outs that were had about calling people "retarded" but "schizo", "psycho", "narcissist", "BPDemon" are fine. Its part of the reason I dont treat normies as humans. They have no real values or principles. Its not even about whether theyre "right". You cant even enter the question of whether youre wrong or right, if you dont actually value anything.if youre just a pure unadulterated reflection of languages changes reflecting changing sweeping predilections for social enforcement
>>25037934Nothing japanese can be as beautiful as thomas covenant
>>25037160i've read so many lately that i'm a bit fed up with them. from best to worse:exhalation - fantasticcathedral - fantastic, although it's not sffge pluribus unicorn - fantasticthe golden apples of the sun - greatthe king in yellow - good but teatro grottesco does it better betterexpedition to earth - mostly shit
Started reading Viriconium
>>25037267>Deus Ex army.The only thing that's really off is the scale of the 7th. No way they were only a few thousand dudes most of the time, that's silly.
>>25037332>>25037364They don't even kill the Semk god anons. It comes back and fucks them up.
>>25038355checked. I always hear about Harrison and I get the sense he's a bit more "literary" and "weird" and "difficult" - is that true? how are you liking the book so far?
>>25037751Not him, but what's not to understand? It's all very simple when you get down to it. Bakker is a nihilist who only cares about gratifying his base and hedonistic desires and thinks that all deities must be anthropomorphic and by extension sinister because, well, all humans are sinister and stupid.
>>25037731imagine not having access to the advanced readesr copy lmao
>>25038070Is there supposed to be a point being made here? Something about patriarchy reducing women to whores, wives and whatnot? I know leftists really hate community and tradition, but still, this is pretty silly.
>>25037860To piggyback off this, any books that are framed as a biography of the protagonist?
My takes on the commonly recommended /sff/ I've read recently:>Farseer TrilogyVery good. I see why people call it miseryporn, but I can't really empathize with the misery because Fitz is given absolutely every possible opportunity to avoid it but refuses literally all of the advice he's ever given and insists upon the misery. I read it more of a tragic commentary on the way that we're all doomed to be ourselves, and if we were given the opportunity to go back and relive our lives with all of the wisdom of age it probably wouldn't go any better the second time.>Second ApocalypseGood, Judging Eye is exceptional. Throughout the story Bakker loses sight of his characters and too often drifts into dreary recitals of which heroic non-character performed which deed I don't care about in this or that imaginary battle. It reads like nonfiction and I don't see the point of reading a history of imaginary events. When he can stay on topic it's very good, and even what might seem at first glance to be a direct retelling of Tolkein comes across as fresh and interesting thanks to a compelling cast of characters. Unfortunately, Kelhus falls into the classic trap of being impossible to write a character smarter than the author. Thankfully he's not a primary character for the first couple of Aspect Emperor books.>BelgariadOnce upon a time, it was probably funslop, but after reading decades worth of slop downstream of it, it's utterly forgettable and aged like milk. Not everything needs to be an enduring work of art, but I'd rather have read a Cosmere or Sun Eater novel instead.>Solar CycleVery good, Short Sun is exceptional. Too often I see people try to read way too much into shallow works, but it's clear that Wolfe is a very intentional writer and there's deeper meanings to be found. I get why people with a sensitivity towards cringy edgelord characters dislike New Sun, although I personally enjoyed it immensely. Long Sun I felt was two books too long; the pacing is far slower than anything else Wolfe has written but it does a good job of setting up Short Sun, which is probably now my favorite work of fiction of all time. Horn is a painfully relatable character. He's not a good guy, and he knows it, but he's trying to be better, but it's hard, but ultimately he succeeds. And in particular I like the subtle shifts in perspective between Horn and Silkhorn and Silkhorn relating his perceptions of events as Horn in the past. It's a wonderfully layered narrative with deft and intricate development even for minor characters.>Titus GroanDidn't do it for me, at all. Dropped after one book. It feels almost like two books, really. The first half is a slice of life comedy about how silly English people act, where nothing of note happens. The story actually starts almost exactly halfway through, and not only is there a shift to a much darker tone, there's also a rapid shift in the narrative style as well. (1/2)
>>25038718>Farseer Trilogyyou poor bastard
>>25038355I just bought a complete viriconium book. It's just shy of 500 pages. Found it when looking for things Conan/cugel/sword and sorcery adjacent.Planning on starting it sometime later this month
Do you guys think there's any fantasy or SF which could be considered high literature?
>>25038755Anyone who says fantasy/sci-fi can't be high literature but regular fiction can is just masturbating. That said "high (media)" is generally a masturbation game anyway.
>>25038718(2/2)It feels strange to slog through the first half with Nannie Slagg constantly berating Fuchsia for imaginary slights, and then get to the second half where it practically says straight out "Nannie Slagg constantly berates Fuchsia for imaginary slights." I don't care enough to go look up the exact phrasing, but there's a few examples of this exact thing. It's like the author knew everyone skipped through the first half of book and he's trying to get everyone caught up to speed with these little "tell not show" reminders. Absolutely bizarre. If I'd skipped to the actual plot I might have had the will to keep going and I certainly wouldn't have missed anything important that didn't come with a reminder.>Elric of MelniboneFirst book was good, the next two not so much. I probably won't continue. In the first book, the titular character is presented as an unusually keen and thoughtful man, with a great deal of book learning from his sickly childhood but with relatively little direct knowledge of the greater world (certainly none outside of his court), and it's his earnest and thoughtful nature that has him ultimately prevail over his brash and spiteful cousin. But then the next two books flip a hard 180, where he's now a rugged traveler of the world after having spent a few weeks away from home, but presented with a variety of alternate planes of (sur)reality that he should be conceptually familiar with from his training in sorcery and personal experience with the elemental planes and plane of chaos, he keeps doggedly insisting that the thing he's experiencing right now is impossible and demanding explanations from everyone around him. Those explanations are inevitably freely given but he willfully refuses to understand them. I don't think I've ever seen a character so actively undermined.
>>25038766>in the first bookWhich book is the first?
>>25037992>picked it up because the cover looked really coolThis is subjective, but i absolutely hate when something with a cool cover or label isn't good. Whether that be a book, a video game, food, beer. I hate when they don't synchronize. Cool looking things should be good.
>>25037326Yes, the Elderling series.
>>25038755Very little, and certainly not the trash people on /lit/ will reccomend you.
>>25038766Revenge of the Rose is real good. I think it's the 8th or 9th book.I'm glad I read all of Elric. Sure it varies in quality but the writing is pretty solid and I'm a sucker for sword and sorcery.
>>25037160Currently reading the Best of Frederik Pohl.Read Beyond the Beyond by Poul Anderson (5 "novellas") earlier this year and liked it a lot.I think Sci-fi works best with short stories.
eden paradox - 8/10sad micah got cucked by chad vince then beaner ramires.
>>25037957>>25038070>>25037701Either you guys are retarded by thinking its just her "whore brain" or you genuinly can't appreciate what Bakker is doing here.Esmenet is essentialy selling of what remains of herself to Kellhus. All while knowing what he really is because it actually IS the best choice she can make. Regardless if she loves Akka she cannot go back to him knowing what she now knows about what is coming. It's either go back to your old whore life or ascend as empress and wife to the prophet so you actually gain power and respect for the first time ever. It's a fucking no brainer.>>25038674Bakker is making the point that women have historically been forced to marry men they don't truly love or are abusive towards them etc for security. As the series goes on you will note how female characters gain more agency. It's honestly pretty hard for this stuff to fly over the readers head. He is very explicit about it.
>>25038839>The wisdom of a man>The heart of a childI fail to see how this is a bad thing.
>>25038883Ignore him and anyone who posts that image. They're too raped to say anything of value.
>>25038690>Guy who thinks Bakker cant write characters smarter than him thinks Short Sun is the best thing since sliced breadkek
Is The Darkness that Comes Before the worst book of the trilogy? Still like it, but its starting to drag for me especially around the part of Calememunis or whatever, being inexplicably stupidly stubborn, against all possible logic in wanting to start the Holy War earlier...when they clearly have a better chance by waiting, and literally have ZERO reason to not wait. And no amount of "faith" could possibly explain this irrationality. My mom is an irrational religious and spiritual person, but even she would never say "Throw yourself infront of a train, God will save you".I've already been spoiled a bit, so I know this is out of spite for Proyas, but it still doesnt explain why so many follow along. Yes the book makes sure to tell you about the retards that sold their entire family to slavery so they could go to shimeh, or drowned his two sons to send them to shimeh (I guess they think of Shimeh as a literal heaven on earth?) But behaviours like this dont make sense for anybody but the most mentally ill and unironically schizophrenic.I have disdain for religious people (not all), and even I cant see them as this comically irrational.
>>25038780Elric of Melnibone, as the first book in The Elric Saga.https://moorcography.org/the-elric-saga-part-one/If there's a better order to read them I may be open to suggestions, but honestly it would take some convincing for me to keep going. I've got Poul Anderson's Broken Sword up next.
>>25038917It's explained later on at some point in Aspect Emperor: the pope is actually a plant from Kelhus's father who forsaw his coming and set the seeds for the holy war to line up with Kelhus's arrival.
>>25038906No author can write a character vastly more intelligent than himself. You can write a character that thinks on the same level as you do but faster, but hyperintelligence is fundamentally ineffable to the merely intelligent.I don't see what this has to do with Short Sun, there are no all-knowing hypergeniuses in that story.
>>25038941>I don't see what this has to do with Short Sun, there are no all-knowing hypergeniuses in that story.Kellhus isnt really all knowing, more like "all-learning" or "all-understanding" also the problem we're coming across, I think is a problem of language. Kellhus isnt a character "smarter than the author" the same way just because chatgpt can make mathematical calculations faster than any human, doesn't mean its smarter than Albert Einstein was, or fuck even than some more "normal" humans. If you have any substantive experience with AI, you'll understand why its not "intelligence" you don't even need to understand its programming, just have a strong critical thinking capacity. What I mean to say is that you're framing things poorly imo because of the shallow nature of language and the brazen way we use words like "smart" and "intelligent". I thought you were going to make the more typical argument, that Kellhus is always so "right" that it narrows the framework of understanding. In science, and even philosophy and disciplines concerned with truth not mere knowledge. A theory is often right, simply because "there isnt anything better/more useful/opposing yet". That's what Kellhus is like, a flawed scientific theory that simply hasn't yet encountered special relativity. "Truth" is found through interaction to me. This criticism mostly applies to prince of nothing trilogy kellhus though
>>25038933But that doesnt explain Calmenmunis' actions or whatever, and the rabid stupity of those who followed him. Maithanet or whatever literally tried to stop him multiple times, in multiple ways, from marching the Holy War early before the main soldiers actually got there
>>25038881>Esmenet is essentialy selling of what remains of herself to KellhusThis is called whoring and doesn't contradict my point.
>>25038917>And no amount of "faith" could possibly explain this irrationality.It can. That's literally what's happened during the First Crusade: a bunch of peasants and poorfags listened to a schizo preacher and tried to conquer the Holy Land on their own without waiting for the main force.>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Crusade>Calling for a crusade at the Council of Clermont in 1095, Pope Urban II planned the departure of the crusade for 15 August 1096. Nevertheless, a number of unexpected bands of peasants and low-ranking knights organized and set off for Jerusalem on their own. >A charismatic monk and powerful orator named Peter the Hermit of Amiens was the spiritual leader of the movement. He was known for riding a donkey and dressing in simple clothing. He had vigorously preached the crusade throughout northern France and Flanders. He claimed to have been appointed to preach by Christ himself (and supposedly had a divine letter to prove it), and it is likely that some of his followers thought he, not Urban, was the true originator of the crusading idea. >In any case, it is known that Alexius warned Peter not to engage the Turks, whom he believed to be superior to Peter's motley army, and to wait for the main body of crusaders, which was still on the way.[25]
>>25039140Nigga the crusade parallels are obvious. You have to be fucking joking if you think what happened with Calamenunis or whatever and random peasants drowning their children so they could be sent to the "holy land" is what happened during the crusades, you cant be serious. I KNOW religious people have done crazy, insane abd delusional stuff. There is always a rational underlying reason for the irrational. Schizophrenics here literal fucking voices and see things that are not there, they arent making shit up and being retarded for fun.You understand my point now?Even with the irrational, theres a rational explanation for their behaviour that can be concocted. There is no rational reason to storm a "forsaken holy land" early without your full army force, unless you and everyone following you are literally crazy. And you've yet to explain that fact im contending with
Even the Wikipedia article you linked, I can dismiss as crazy and random and retarded. But a book is distinct from reality in the very fact that we can be made aware of facts and reasons we would not have direct access to from our narrow first person perspectives. Even in a book of first person perspectives, multiple can be shown. Important ones can be highlighted over some random no name peasant. It just doesnt make sense.I dont know why the retarded people's crusade happened but that doesnt give excuse for the book to not have a reason
Proyas' cousin has just been shamed and now wants to redeem himself and win great glory because of his wounded pride. Believing the threat of the Fanim to be vastly overstated he marches on Shimeh pre-emptively.This is all according to the Emperor's gambit of getting the lords to sign his indenture in exchange for his nephew Conphas to lead the Holy War
>>25039312This is I guess, atleast somewhat of a reason. Still unbelievably retarded what he did. It would honestly be more convincing if he was suicidal, or playing for the enemy. But I guess shame can make one do things even against their very own interets (Assuming he actually wants to see the Holy War succeed)I'm not saying its bad, everything else about the book has been good, its just been the most droning aspect of the book so far because its so senseless and expedient. You see all these efforts to make him stop doing something retarded that he shouldnt even want to do, and nothing happens, you just have to watch a retard march on.Its very tiring having to read stupidity that is a waste of time when you know absolutely what the conclusion can be, and the process itself isnt even that interesting because like I said, its led by stupid people, doing stupid things, for very weak and shallow reasons.Like you couldnt imagine winning glory alongside the actual bigger army? Proving yourself among so many? If you couldnt imagine overwhelming success WITH a great army, what makes you think you have the capacity for overwhelming success on your own? Its just stupid. Its one of the stupidest characters I've ever had the displeasure of reading in a long time.
>>25038917>Is The Darkness that Comes Before the worst book of the trilogy?It's the best by a mile.
>>25039140I think what the anon's means here is that Bakker takes his historical inspirations, finds them not interesting or striking enough, and makes them a few orders of magnitude more severe. And the results are really, really hit or miss. Like the aforementioned Vulgar Holy War. Or Scylvendi being Scythians but more Death Metal to the point of absurdity. Or the battle of Kiyuth being started with mass public homosexual rape. Or Mengedda plains being some Backrooms Blops VII ahh flashbackothron 9000. Or the Ikurei dynasty's decadence being portrayed through it's infantile title-holders competing for their (grand)mother's wrinkled cunny. Doing things from history or like in history is never enough for him and it does raise a brow. If my guy found the historical events that he transparently references too pedestrian without a few tankers worth of of black seed poured over them, then perhaps he should've referenced something more interesting to him. Does come out as some edgy anime in many cases.
>>25039320so its only downhill from here...
>>25038690Farmer did that with Tarzan and Doc Savage. Haven't read them, I read a review that said they're good pastiches but Tarzan Alive is a lil rambly and that the Doc Savage is even better than the original novels. They're both part of the "Wold Newton family."
>>25039327Its not really what I mean, because Im simply not far enough in the book to find it a pattern. Also I swear I just read the battle at Kiyuth Conphas won, when was their huge homosexual rape? I guess somebody fights there again.The book does like to exaggerate, or make fun of some things, like the Ikurei internal power struggle. Like neither of these characters are human, but what makes them readable, is how they read and intepret others, its kind of what makes Kellhus interesting, there is a character reflected in their thoughts trying to figure somebody or something else out, and how they do that.Theres a lot I can tolerate and excuse. Make a ridiculous character, but so long as his actions are mostly consistent and make sense given what you've established of them, and aslong as they dont do anything contrived our outside their scope, Ill accept them.Make them do something with such a poor explanation, or little explanation that it feels like a forced event to drive the story forward, and it becomes a stupid contrivance. Maybe the book will save itself later down the line, but as of now, its killed my interest in any further event, because if something like this could pass with little question, then I worry of whats to come, and what other ridiculousness Ill have to swallow.I'll keep reading because of the reasons I laid above about the characters trying to figure stuff out. Reminds me of somebody from a very popular 2000s TV show and how his character is reflected in how he interprets the actions and non actions of the people who he comes to deal with day to day. Especially because it proves that character wasnt interesting just because he was smart, as Xerius proves.
I really love the Traditional Medieval Themed fantasy books and worlds, like a Fantasy world set in not! Medieval times with magic and wizards? Yes please
reading Niven-Pournelle (TMIGE)why do they randomly rape things as a curse lololnot that I mind, I wish you could write like these guys did today
>>25039454seriously it's used thrice in the first one and there's a whole plot point around the phrase "rape my lizard" in the second which is like their "skibidi epstein"
Finished the Empire of the Vampire trilogy. You could tell Kristoff was over this story by the middle of the second book. Celene was a disgusting character, the Ashdrinker thing made me seethe.
>>25039364Does it have to be fantasy? Because you can always read something like the White Company.
>>25038718Belgariad is very much stock fantasy, but with more emphasis on character. More people probably know who Polgara is without having read the series, though.
>>25039551is this related to that cook guy's book by any chance
>>25039599Nope.
>[The Dying Earth] was retitled Mazirian the Magician in the Vance Integral Edition (2005),[1] according to Jack Vance's expressed preference.Why would Vance want to take a very descriptive and evocative title and change it to the name of a minor character? Was he stupid?
>>25039320Warrior Prophet is better imo
>>25038592>how are you liking the book so far?I'm not that far into it yet, but it's promising and a good read so far. Setting is interesting
>reason to join /sffg/, "Red Rising">Well, that's going to be a reject >check profile >See the books in their profile>consider commenting on their book choices>"If I speak I'm in big trouble" >accepted for reasons unrelated to join message
Serkis or Ingles for the lotr audiobooks?
>>25039724I thought the /sffg/ goodreads group got deleted. Did I just get kicked out because I wasn't replying to the admins fucking constant xbox live M2AF tier notifications?
>>25038755I really don't give a shit, the fart huffers will never accept it as such and I don't care to impress them anyway.
>>25037267Well, some things got better in the end, but ending the assassination storyline with:>I dindu nuffin'>Well fug :DDWas dumb. Also, am i supposed to root for empire? Because i don't. They are scum.
>>25039827>Also, am i supposed to root for empire? Because i don't. They are scum.I didn't understand this either. You can't just spend the whole first book showing the Empire is shit and how they're actively killing the MCs then go "actually it was a ruse :^)". Kellenved seems like a cheeky fucker too.
>>25039743The last time I removed anyone was six years ago.
>>25039827>>25039837Laseen is kind of dumb, but that’s a topic for later.>Am I supposed to root for the Empire? Because I don’t. They’re scum.If you think so then it must be so. You’re not supposed to see the entire Malazan Empire as one monolithic thing since you can love the soldiers themselves without loving the Empire as a whole. Especially when that Empire is in a pretty messy state right now since Surly usurped Kellanved and became its Empress.And sometimes accidents just kind of...happen. The siege of pale is pretty messy. This topic will expand right after in the next book so don't worry
>>25038755Yeah, pretty much everything in that manchildcore chart that someone posts every thread.
>>25037026Women hate it almost unanimously on Goodreads so it’s probably pretty entertaining
>>25038690The 13 1/2 Lives of Captain Bluebear. Awesome read, imo. Really most things by Walter Moers is good
Did the Holy War of Shimeh early charge ever get settled yet
Why aren't publishers banking on nostalgia again? It worked well in the 1970s and this decade is as screwed.
>>25039955Publishers follow trends, they don't create them. There would need to a successful nostalgia laden book first they would all then look to copy.
>>25039955What nostalgia is present right now to bank on?
>>25039870>accidentsWas all the emperial cruelty shown in the beginning of the book(especially the mines) an "accident"? Honestly, at this point i'm only interested in Jaghut lore
>>25039998This contains MOI heavy spoilers. You’ve been warnedThe Bridgeburners got the job of digging into the city because Taytay thought they would be safer there. Fighting on the plain was going to be extremely risky since there were too many high mage convergences outside Pale. Tay thought he was hot shit and got cocky believing he could handle Rake. Unfortunately Rake just reflected his attacks and in turn he deflected them away because he kinda doesn't want to be fried by his own magic. That ended up causing a lot of friendly fire. Many Malazan infantry soldiers and mage cadres died as you can see in the prologue, and it turned out that being underground wasn’t as safe as he thought.As for the High Mages, Nightchill wanted Rake’s sword and had her own ulterior motives. A’Karonys knew this and reported it to Tayschrenn. Laseen dun like this. In the heat of the battle Nightchill suddenly ambushed and killed A’Karonys. Tayschrenn then slew her in turn, causing his plan to bring down Moon’s Spawn to faileither reading this if you are curious or being a good boy trusting the author
>>25037016am I the only one who likes them more than the main books?
>>25040052Walk in Shadow will be finished this spring, or so I've heard
>>25040052If WiS somehow ends up being better than those two books I’d rate this trilogy higher than the main ten without a doubt. He’s already had plenty of time to cooki am still unsure how he is going to handle the war against death. Is this just going to turn out to be some metaphorical bullshit or are there actual battles to be fought
>>25040045Obvious retcon
>>25039333Bakker fans never gunna live this down huh?
>>25040082well you could just reread that part any time. This was exactly what happened
Thoughts?
>>25037026I should pick this back up. Liked what I read aside from the protag being an edgelord.
>>25037695>Victra best girl
>>25037016Any dark fantasy recs? Something Wicked This Way Comes was neat but I need something a little more mature
>>25040125Garbage
>>25039314NTA but should I even read this series when stuff like this passes as writing? Or am I missing something?
>>25037934MT is a NPD cope fantasy while TCOTC are just cope fantasy
>>25040144When you think a dark fantasy story book that is both good and isn't about the author making sure you know people get RAPED in his story because he's so god damn edgy, make sure to let me know.
>>25039724Hey man can you add me in? My goodreads spammed out but it said I attempted. Only answered the question that was asked.
>>25040171It seems Donaldson has once again ruffled some jimmies.
>>25040181https://www.goodreads.com/group/invite/1029811-sffg?invite_token=NjhjYTRlMjktYTE5MC00ZmEwLTg0MTUtODE4NjhlN2FlNjY3
>>25040189And rustled some feathers!
>Somehow palpatine has returnedThere cant seriously be people telling me Calmemunis starting the Holy War early, isn't a bit silly, or weirdly (poorly) written. This entire chapter has been so weird, you know exactly whats going to happen in the end even without spoilers, so its just been rushing through like a months journey, not even bothering to explain it well. So that this part of the story can get on already, since its an important part of the story for a bunch of different things to work. But theres nothing interesting to understand about it, because there isnt even any smart political maneuvering or strategy from Calmemunis, and Maithanet and nobody else can really stop him...so youre just watching stupidity unfold with seemingly no point other than the meta point of serving its purpose in pushing the story a certain way.I guess nobody cares clearly since I've never heard this pointed out before. But it feels sloppy, especially considering the standard the book has established until this point.
Here's another, why not.https://www.goodreads.com/group/invite/1029811-sffg?invite_token=YzY4YzkyZmQtMjYxNC00ZTYwLThlYzMtYWUzZjhiOWExM2U1&utm_medium=email&utm_source=copypastegroup
>>25040212>Somehow palpatine has returnedcmon now
Honestly it would better be explained if Calmemunis and the Vulgar Holy War had all been cast under a spell. At the point of the story I'm at.
Like dude, youve got lepers eagerly climbing mountains for this shitty "war"? I just cannot fathom this level of delusion. Its just too much for me. I believe human beings can be stupid, shallow, base. But nothing about this is within natural human instinct, they must be convinced of this retardation, due to their capacity for retardation. I've got to do more research on that Peoples Crusade and how the fuck it happened in real life. I doubt it was as stupid and extreme as the Vulgar War, but still it has to have an explanation.
>>25040236>low IQ squalid lepers living in filth and extreme poverty and has nothing in life has a fire in their soul lit because of the prospect of paradise, glory for god and a great lord is saying that everything is going to be awesome and they will crush the Fanim because they're weaklings and the pope himself ordered the holy war and they're going to be the first!
>>25040209You mean RAPED some feathers.
>>25040241I've been thinking about this, and then thought about mob mentalityAnd apparently for the Peoples Crusade it was a bunch of poor retards that thought they could claim money and influence through the Crusade.In that case, I can sort of imagine, a hundred thousand retards, all desperate, and delusional, explicitly because theyre surrounded by so many fellow thousands of retards, who feel "invincible" just because of how many people theyre surrounded by, even if little training, theyre so fundamentally ignorant and stupid that they cannot comprehend that numbers alone is not enough, and our fueled by the equally ignorant fervor of everybody else. It wouldnt help, if their looting and massacring along the way, gave the a false sense of power.I guess unfortunately I just have to treat the unnamed masses as fundamentally stupid and devoid of any capacity for critical thought.That leaves us with Calmemunis though. None of them were moving forward without him and the other retards like CUMrezzer. At the very least for those dudes, who arents poor and retarded, and who are part of "Great Faction". There NEEDS to be some sort of magic spell explanation for why they kept marching on. Delusion cant be enough. To be fair I know Tharschilka or whatever his name is was starting to have doubts, but ill just conclude hes a lower level "leader" so just barely different from the peasants, since Calmemunis swiftly convinced him to keep going cuz a supply train they could loot was sign of blessings.At the end of the day, this is all on Calmemunis. Either he is a sick bastard trying to commit mass suicide. Or he is under a spell.
>>25040236Even today you have Muslims blowing themselves up because their lives are shit and they're convinced they'll go to paradise if they do, how is this hard to believe?
>>25040256Nigga do you know how Isis formed? They didnt suicide for fun, they suicided because it was the only way they could fuck with America and Western Hegemonies enough, to get them to fuck off from the Middle East.Do you not understand the clear difference between desperate war tactics with a purpose vs delusion? They didnt actually think they were taking down america. Its called terrorism for a reason. Theyre trying to scare the people and governments into fucking off.No matter how "extreme" it is. Its practical. My problem isnt a set of actions or behaviours being "extreme or risky" its making decisions that dont make sense to accomplishing your goals.The peasants I can excuse because they are probably GENUINELY stupid. They probably literally think that Calmemunis' army is the entire holy war.Look its basic logic:You want to win a war? Preparation, Trained Soldiers, and as much numbers, supplies, food, etc. As possible is the best chance to win.The fucking retards stormed before they had the entire army formed, with untrained retards, no knowledge of the enemy, and dwindling fucking supplies, but they kept going on.Thats fucking stupid on a level beyond suicide bombing.Noticed how I said that Calmemunis being on a suicide mission would make more sense than anything hes doing? Yeah theres a reason why.
>>25040255I think it's entirely in character for Calmemunis and his motivation has been previously established.There is no smart political maneuvering from Calmemunis because he is not smart. He just has a big ego and his pride has been wounded so he's going to fix that to make himself feel better.Calmemunius sincerely and genuinely believes that the Fanim are just some pathetic desert dogs that he can easily put down.And he was spiritually beaten down earlier establishing his motivation for getting a headstart on the march.In Calmemunis mind this thing is not going to be some super challenge that must be thought smartly about.Nobody stops it because the people that could stop it doesn't actually want to, the emperor actively wants him to go and you don't know enough about Maithanet yet. No one is really pushing back on Calmemunis and the other great names that could maybe convince Calmemunis aren't there yet to start the march, and if they were there'd be no reason in the first place since they'd all be marching as one army..
>>25040261>and you don't know enough about Maithanet yet.Sure but the multiple edicts to dwindle their supplies cant possible be reverse psychology. Why waste the time, effort, and resources if you want them to march early to their deaths? The only way it could make sense, is so that I guess it looks like you were reasonable enough to try and stop it, but secretly you actually want Xerius' plan to be fulfilled for some reason unknown to me yet.>In Calmemunis mind this thing is not going to be some super challenge that must be thought smartly about.I guess the delusion just has to be really well explained to me then. I can give the peasant mob a pass, because mobs CAN genuinely be that fucking stupid, human beings just remind the world why theyre animals in situations like that. But Calmemunis should be educated at the very least even if not smart. Why was he sent off early in the first place then? Just doesn't make sense why hed have that much power, while being that stupid. Unless its deliberate and deception.
>>25040151The strength of the book is the prose, and a couple characters. The plot itself is contrived, kind of stupid, and at parts totally unbelievable.It's important to note that there at some points a through line of "our Christian analogue is just better than the Muslim analog" so the books attract *that* type. There are for instance in the second book, multiple battles that are won despite being tactical disasters just because the men of the tusk(cross) just "le fight better and believe"In my opinion the books worst sin is the sheer length of inner monologue amongst the characters (especially esmet), but the prose remains immaculate at times, if boring at others.
this is a good book
>>25039556MOMMY POLGARA
>>25040151Try reading the prologue. If you don't like it don't read it.
>>25040305A part of that ties into the mythologizing of Kellhus as the Warrior-Prophet and him seemingly performing actual miracles, but still ambiguous enough for the reader to think "what is actually going on here? Did that happen for real?"And then there are also other parts that are too spoilery
>>25037016>>25037026Are there any other vampire novels published recently? That aren't YA shlock, I mean.
>>25040305>There are for instance in the second book, multiple battles that are won despite being tactical disasters just because the men of the tusk(cross) just "le fight better and believe"Oh god. I am not going to survive this trilogy am i. Oh god. I had this very very very worrisome intuition I pushed down, that this book was going to feel like an anime, because Kellhus seems like exactly the type of character a mangaka would think up. But I pushed those thoughts down, because the uniqueness of the medium of novels, to give direct access to his thoughts made the character slightly more interesting than an anime counterpart I could imagine, because his ignorance directly leads to a poking and proding to understand, and that understanding reveals latent depth in characters we would normally have little access to if any other character were interacting, without needing to peer directly to their POV. Lewith is a perfect example, because even if we had direct access to his perspective, it wouldn't actually reveal any further depth on its own, because he was lying to himself from the get go, so he had no real "awareness" of his true feelings, which Kellhus wrung out of him.But...Kellhus is only one part of the story, and also arguably the most delicate part of the story because of how much raw potential for influence and power he has, that can possibly fuel ridiculous events I would bet I havent even come close to yet.God. I don't want to ever experience the disappointment I find with anime and manga again, this is exactly why I am trying to flee to novels.
>>25040350Anon I don't really get you. You needed the Inrau scene explained to you, and now you've since written multiple pages of critique on the series. Maybe just read it? And reread if you don't get something? Or drop it and read some other thing?It just feels like you're searching for stuff to get offended by at this point, instead of trying to enjoy reading
>>25040370I am reading. I came across a problem. I wanted to have that problem resolved through the understanding of another, so that I could procede with no further doubts that I would be wasting my time or come up across another problem equally as concerning, or even more.A Book establishes a certain level of trust and the reader reciprocates with a certain level of buy in. Contrivance breaks the degree with which a book can be trusted to be deep, or even for that depth to have any sensibility. I really hope I dont have to explain the problem of contrivance and how it can break an entire story.I'm not even that strict about contirvances. Theres a lot I can tolerate. A lot I can accept. But often when I accept something that has triggered "something is wrong" in my brain, I later come to find only disappointment and regret at wasting my time and distrusting myself so as to maintain trust with the offer.I have sung the praises of this book so far. Infact I was having such a problem with the Vulgar Holy War, that I went back to read Xerius explaining his plan to Conphas and Isitrya (or whatever her name is) so as to find out if they explained why Calmemunis would be so delusional. They dont, they basically just explain the surface level, that he thinks himself invincible, and doesnt want to give up power, or be merely a lieutenant when the rest of the army arrives. Thats not a why though. And when almost every other character, with as much importance as Calmemunis happens to have to the plot, has done something, it has been explained or given sufficient context.Like Xerius, who is also not that smart, yet every single on of his actions make sense. And his plan is honestly so well considered and explained, that that dialogue, and how everything was revealed was nearly the highlight of the book so far on a reread.Bakker is very good at character interactions and how the slowly reveal more about the characters, relations, and that which moves the "world".
>>25040350Just drop it, this kino is not for you unfortunately.
>>25040144Shadowland by Peter Straub
>>25040390he's right y'know
>>25040091Well yeah, that's the retarded explanation because that's the retcon. But anybody who knows anything about anything involving tunnels knows that the tunnels are the most dangerous place to be during the huge fuckoff magic battle.Pretty much every military decision made by the Malazans after the siege of Capustan by the supposed military geniuses is the most retarded decision possible.
How is it that master writers who know everything about their story happen to produce plot problems that only you critics seem to notice hmm?
>>25040489Do you think criticism can't be valid because its not commonly shared then?
>>25040489The darkness that came before was Bakker's first novel.>>25040390If contrivances irk you then you should certainly stop here. The Holy War is a series of contrivances, and it gets worse when the characters themselves fall head over heels for Kelhaus' nonsense. If you're looking for a book with a good inner monologue and splendid prose look into The Book of the New Sun.
>>25040052no, Kharkanas is the greatest fiction ever written but too bad only like 12 people read it.
>>25040609>The darkness that came before was Bakker's first novel.Hes not saying what you think hes saying, hes trying to say that the Writer by definition knows and understands more about their own story and world, so more often than not, any criticism of the Plot, especially if its only seemingly brought up or noticed by a small minority, is more than likely essentially seeing smokes and mirrors>If contrivances irk you then you should certainly stop here.I really hope we're understanding contrivance the same way or the way I've explained. I really dont want to make a mistake when this has been like the first novel in a long time to have me so captivated so quickly and easily.>and it gets worse when the characters themselves fall head over heels for Kelhaus' nonsense.I think this is one criticism I've hesrd even fans of the trilogy outline, but I rationalized it because apparently its addressed in the Aspect Emporer trilogy, so I assumed there was a point, or purpose to Kellhus getting away with everything, contrary to how it seemed and that it would eventually justified.Ill probably keep reading until the "contrivance" truly gets egregious. I have no problem with Kellhus himself yet, I could see myself having a problem with him, but people can also exaggerate. I remember when I watched House, if you hear people talk about the show, they act as if he always gets everything right, is never wrong, never makes mistakes, and gets away with everything. Yes he gets away with stuff that normal people would suffer the consequences of, but he also suffers consequences and pains that the show constantly makes sure to show, infact almost every season finale is about that, in a different way. So Ill give Kellhus the benefit of the doubt.I appreciate your response. I just didnt want somebody to dismiss me and treat my criticism as unreasonable without showing me why, theres a lot of people just saying "heheh you just cant understand kino" despite the praise ive heaped for the writing otherwise. Ill just have to give this instance of what feels like contrivance a pass I guess, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me three times, fuck the peace sign, load the chopper, let it rain on you.>If you're looking for a book with a good inner monologue and splendid prose look into The Book of the New Sun.I've been recommended this one. I guess I should put my reservations aside of the classic dostoy meme of sinning your way to Jesus, and hope its deeper than that.
Holy shit, boys. Found this guy in the /sffg/ group. He read 107 books, almost 99% slop. Just remind yourself, before replying to people, that these are the absolute morons you are arguing with. Unbelievable. Whoever you are, you should be ashamed and never ever post here. Fucking hell.
>>25040758You know you can troll with way less words than that, right?
>>25040758THESE ARE THE KIND OF PEOPLE DEFENDING MALAZAN
>>25040758Whoever this is is pretty based and content with life-pilled.
>>25040758>REH>Kane>Blame>Berserk>Transmetropolitan>Acts of CaineBasedEverything else sucks.
>>25040758your face when you go into the /sffg/ goodreads BOOK DISCUSSION discord and witness some bitch complaining about her relationship problems to an active live audience of white knights in a BOOK DISCUSSION discordoh wait no that was MY FACE when
>>25040766I couldn't bring myself to even acknowledge the comics because I feel they just shit up my Goodreads. I wish they'd ban comics, graphic novels, and manga from Goodreads.The Conan and Kane was the only thing I saw that was redeemable, although I probably missed something else.
>>25040758If you want people to discuss the books you like, you can just bring them up in this thread instead of falseflagging and pretending this image is someone other than yourself.>Academy of OutcastsBased.
>>25040764>>25040790OMG BASED YOU BODIED THAT LOSER IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE THREAD :DDDD
>>25040794shut the fuck up you retarded losereven the guy spamming walls of text about prince of nothing is contributing more meaningfully to the thread than you
>>25040315Yes it is
>>25040828why?
>>25040831I was agreeing with the statement. Anyway because the Demon Princes series is a lot of fun. Revenge in space with lots of Vancian problem solving.
>>25040826>basedshut the fuck up you retarded losereven the guy spamming walls of text about prince of nothing is contributing more meaningfully to the thread than you
Has anyone read any novels from Substack authors and were they any good?
I left the Goodreads group when I saw that there were far too many who unironically read romantasy. The women don't know better and it's expected of them. The numales doing so? I'd revoke their man card, but they never had it ever.
>>25040758Most of this looks like fun slop. Fantasy and sci fi is for children anyway, the "my slop is better than yours" mentality is just funny. I wish I could post the picture people use to say Bakker is god, which is entire paragraphs of made up names, people and place with barely any prose in between. None of this shit is real literature, you should get off your high horses.
What's the best philosophically rich (for those who have actually read and therefore understand that philosophy isnt just "erm are good things actually bad, and bad things actually good?" but instead some principle, concept, or idea appealed to and tested.) book in this silly genre? That doesn't feel like every element of the story exists to force an idea down your throat, but instead is explored organically. Think: What if a thought experiment was an entire story? (for those who know what a thought experiment is)
>>25040856They must be closeted.
>>25040858>which is entire paragraphs of made up names, people and place with barely any prose in between.WOAH there now thats SERIOUS and MATURE literature, its just like old greek stories of yonder, so its GOOD and SERIOUS and MATURE because its like how "REAL" life was, its like RAW and doesn't hold back that this is about a DIFFERENT more DARKER and GENUINE time.
>>25040858Bakker also has TDS.Not exactly a god worthy of worship.
>>25040856>>25040780>unironically having a goodreads accountgrim
>>25040869>Bakker also has TDS.kek please dont tell me this is "Trump Derangement Syndrome" I thought this place was too smart for /pol/ to infest and invade? kek!
>>25040873this place (/sffg/; /lit/; 4chan) is newfaggotry:(D:
>>25040860just go ask AI that kind of bullshit
>>25039893went to check and apparently the last time a Moers book came out in English was 2012, and it's been over 6 years since John Brownjohn (the english translator of all of Moers' books so far) died.but everyone, no matter if speaking german, english or otherwise, is still waiting for Castle Of Dreaming Books.. Germany's Winds Of Winter, i tell ya.
>>25040873One of the current threads is a /pol/ thread where antiporn homos bitch.And yes, Bakker has made several tl:dr blogposts on Trump, unfortunately.That's how you know Bakkerfag is a shitposter.
>>25040882>nigga thinks AI understands philosophy, quite possibly the subject AI is least inclined towards, or has the least capacity for understanding, unlike the raw shallowness of math because math doesnt mean anything its just a tool, so theres nothing to understand, just replicate and apply like a skill of which even an animal, void of intelligence is capable of due to instinct, like ants building stuffhe should ask a philosophy professor instead
>>25040893>That's how you know Bakkerfag is a shitposter.So hes trolling and doesnt really hate God Emperor Trump? Whew, my indentity which rests on artists and creators alike, aligning with and confirming my biases and preconceptions, is safe.
>>25040869TDS is chudspeak for common sense, thoughbeit
>>25040255>I guess unfortunately I just have to treat the unnamed masses as fundamentally stupid and devoid of any capacity for critical thought.Art imitates life.
>>25040730Schizos come and go but Baynefag remains.
>>25040790Redpill me on Academy of Outcasts. I liked Saga of the Forgotten Warrior but progression fantasy with guns doesn't tickle my fancy at first glance.
>>25040906Yeah, but part of the appeal of art, is that I can be shown the aspects of the world, people, relationships, etc. That were often not privy too. How many people we exclude, ignore, dismiss, lash out at, attack, just because we never have access to their perspective, and never even let them express their perspective in the first place, but thats just the first level, theres the next level, how many people we heap praise for, glorfy, validate, affirm, coddle, because we have access to a very narrow curated perspective, and make sure that takes precedent over any other perspective, so were blinded to what they truly are?In that latter example, I think of the type of people, who are family members, or family friends, or business partners, where when told that the person they "know" did something wrong, they cant believe it, because they only really have one narrow biased understanding of them.I know truly shallow, and thoughtless people exist where even if perspective were given nothing would be learned. But isnt that obviously uninteresting, and a limited use of the medium's unique power for detail and focused attention?
>>25040917He had one word to describe a book he enjoyed and all he could think of was based.Lol.
>>25040917Yeah, I prefer my fantasy guns with gun-fu/gunkata, but that doesn't sound like Larry's style.
>>25040923why this nigga spittin?
>>25040860Long Sun Short Sun.Anybody disgaree?
>>25039556FUCK I love Pol.
>>25040923If you're looking to explore this concept, I need to know what your views are so I can recommend something from someone you may naturaly write off.
>>25040858what are some real serious literatures discussing serious topics for serious people like me brother? Would you mind recommend some?
>>25041078>If you're looking to explore this conceptIts not what I'm looking to explore so much as what I hope to find in all writing. I dont know if I explained it well because I'm definitely not a "bad guy is actually good because he has a tragic backstory" im more of a "bad guy was never bad, he was just a guy on the opposite end of the protagonists story, a guy who had just as valid reasons for his actions as the "good" guy, and the meat of the conflict is the engagement of both ideas, where preconceptions are truly challenged, both ideas tested, and an organic conclusion arises"Part of the reason anti heroes have become so much more "popular" is how much intimate aspect to their perspectives is given, they could even have, invalid reasons, stupid reasons, flawed reasons, reasons easily shot down, but people will attach themselves to them anyway because of the closeness, that touches a bit on what I talked about.This doesnt mean I dont believe in "good and bad" I just dont think of them in that sort of binary.When youre a child, you think in black and white. When youre a teenager you start to love the "greys" because teenhood is about going against the grain, not by escaping it, but creating a new binary: black/white vs grey. When youre an adult. You realize that all these categorization, black, white, grey are like signals, theyre like indicators, theyre like wearing the jersey of a team. And what actually matters, where the complexity arises, isnt in black, white or grey. But in the interaction of all of them.Often people will talk about "grey" as a Mix of black and white. But as I got older. To me. What Grey does, is it hides the distinction. Its not that any complexity has actually arisen, how can one colour be more complex than two? Its that both simplicities are combined, into a super simplicity.One example I think about a lot is this:A CEO donates to charity, as he profits off of slave labour. Is this a "complex" character? I know people who will ultimately defend and rationalize his actions because hes "helping people" atleast. "Stop thinking in black and white its not as simple to say hes bad". But to me it is that "simple".What youve done is seperate the black and white, but contained them within one "thing". The problem here is a lack of interaction and engagement between the two aspects. To me the value of perspective is "awareness". The CEO never has to consciously consider the bad they do, because its a part of the "good". So theres an ironic disconnect in their fundamental relation. Was going to say more but it would get too complicated. The point for me, is that perspectives should serve almost like premises of an argument, and the progression, is the connection to the conclusion, but the true conclusion should be a clash of the conclusions of said perspectives resolved. Where they must be made aware of eachother, to truly be validated.
The scope and focus of the later Second Apocalypse series is so different from the earlier ones I can't even follow this discussion. Like Xerius and Calmemunis? Fucking who?All I will say is that Bakker is at his best when describing subterranean ruins and almost all of those scenes are in the second quadrilogy.
>>25041157>I can't even follow this discussion. Like Xerius and Calmemunis? Fucking who?kek
>>25041157So the quadrology is better?
>>25039551Those are good too, I just really enjoy the traditional medieval fantasy worlds and stuff
>>25041172Depends on the person
Far as I'm concerned, the fantasy version of Hard Sci-Fi would be... Magical Realism.Think about it—both genres are effectively about grounding a "fake" world into our real one by using the genre's conceits to anchor it to the "real world".In Hard Sci-Fi, the anchor is the Law of Physics. The writer creates a "closed system" where every miracle must be paid for in joules and decimals. In Magical Realism, the anchor is societal changes. The extraordinary—a man with wings, a trail of blood that seeks out a mother, or a girl who floats—is treated with the same weary, matter-of-fact observation as a rainstorm or a broken fence.Both genres reject the "secondary world" trope of high fantasy and space opera. They refuse to take you to Middle-earth or a galaxy far, far away; they insist on staying right here. By embedding the impossible into a world of laundry, politics, and physical grit, they strip away the "wonder" of the spectacle and replace it with the weight of consequence.In "soft" genres, the magic or tech is often the solution to the plot. But in Hard Sci-Fi and Magical Realism, the miracle is usually the complication. If a Hard Sci-Fi protagonist deals with the grueling, technical reality of lunar gravity, the Magical Realist protagonist deals with the grueling, social reality of a ghost who won’t stop sitting at the dinner table.
are there any books like terry prachett terry pratchett but with sci-fi?can't remember ever reading a sci-fi comedy
>>25041393Douglas Adams, who Pratchett was clearly trying to emulate in his early books.
>>25041393Will Save the Galaxy for Food by Yahtzee Croshaw
>>25041369Sanderson tries this and it doesn't work. You can't try to put hard science to magic because, surprise surprise, fantasy magic isn't real and so trying to put numbers to it just makes holes in your story eventually.
>>25040923>I know truly shallow, and thoughtless people exist where even if perspective were given nothing would be learned. But isnt that obviously uninteresting, and a limited use of the medium's unique power for detail and focused attention?No? And that is for those exact reasons you outlined in the first paragraph. How can you say at first that one of the appeals of art is deeper explorations of people we tend to dismiss, yet then go on to yourself dismiss focused attention on a whole group of people as "obviously uninteresting"? It's contradictory.Now in regards to the book specifically, I find it funny that these are basically the exact themes that will get explored heavily in books two and three. I do think this "autistic" focus on the details about the Vulgar Holy War is a little bit silly, however, because it really is missing the forest for the trees. To me there are three things he is doing here that I can see, which are: 1. Obviously setting this up as an important event in the narrative, 2. A historical reference to the People's Crusade, 3. This is an early introduction of the central theme of the whole series. The reason they lose is because they were certain they wouldn't, and certainty, as we will come to find out, is very, very bad.
As far as recently-published fantasy novels about overcoming trauma by talking to your friends about it? Way better than what Sanderson put out last year.
Certainly the wrong thread, but I don't this this question deserves its own, and the pulp fiction general isn't up: I'm looking for hard-boiled novels/stories about sociopaths? I've been reading a lot of Jim Thompson and love his anti-heroes. A secondary question now that I think of it: what are some of the best fantasy novels featuring evil main characters? Or fantasy novels that could be described as "psychological"
>>25041463>It's contradictory.No its not. "Contradiction" is just misunderstanding. A focused deeper dive strictly into a group of vegetable people's thoughts would yield nothing. Even in the case where we assume they had the capacity for thought it might yield something but would remain uninteresting, they could interact with no other person, which is the basis of human identity, they could do nothing on their own, every "act" of theirs would be inextricably dependent on the whims of another. You'd have to introduce another perspective to make it interesting, and youd have to stretch the bounds of what can be considered realistic of a vegetable persons thoughts without just ending up not actually writing a story about a vegetable person in the end, but instead, your retarded personal fantasy of somebody who has been a vegetable their whole life, but somehow has the sensibilities of a person who has grown up normally, been talked to socially as if they could reciprocate, taught and learned as if they could demonstrate understanding etc.And this is all with the assumption that merely "showing" a perspective is "deep" in and of itself. That's just the surface level. I only gave this analogy. Because the type of person that misunderstands what I'm saying, often gets fooled by faux demonstrations of "depth", because they lack critical thought and accept everything as is given to them.
>>25041463>The reason they lose is because they were certain they wouldn't, and certainty, as we will come to find out, is very, very bad.Also. I dont know how you can dismiss my contention, when if you actually understand what Im contending with, then the very fact that you revealed what is the ultimate point of the story, or at the very least a very important one, is necessarily undermined by the holes my problem with that part of the story implies. Maybe not ENTIRELY undermined, if I assume no "things just happen because they do, even if it doesnt really make sense that it happens when you question basic implications" of a similar manner or degree. Then writing a story about fate or determinism becomes very contrived, and at that point if your determinism is contrived...then who cares? Its as fantastical as a bible story, where things happen, because you have to accept God exists to read the Bible, and God can make anything happen, even without reason. That doesn't say anything about the world if you simply dont accept the obvious implication that anything can just happen because one wants it to happen, like that one story where God burns some city or something and tells the guy to take his wife and kids out and dont look back and when one of them looks back they get turned to stone or something. I dont remember the details, but the point is that when God can do such retarded and arbitrary things like that, anything about "fate" and determinism that could be applied to the real world doesnt mean anything, its just a belief at that point. Its not philosophical, or even metaphysical, or even physical (physics cant prove determinism either way, science cant answer such questions)And if you understand all this. Youd understand why such a story problem, is a problem. Because things need to be as organic as real life is, to mean anything, not because of any reason, but because real life is the only "life" unproduced by man. It is the only thing expected to have no reason. Why is the Sky blue instead of green "because X photon of light is absorbed by blah blah" But why does that have to result in blue? Why not a different colour? Why need colour at all. To be fair its more than likely that colour is "imposed" by the human mind than anything, but the point stands regardless. Because thats just how the world works.That "justification" doesn't pass for something produced by "man" because it inherently contradicts reality, or at the very least the way we can understand it. When reality precedes understanding, and all understanding is almost post hoc. I dont know if you understand what I mean.
>>25041468I haven't read anything from Jimmy after Codex Alera and the weird NTR slave collars.
>>25041458But Magical Realism isn't making magic fit the laws of physics, or even some manmade magic system. It's about adding magic into the real world to explore complex political, social, and cultural themes—such as identity and post-colonialism—by making the extraordinary feel mundane, thereby allowing authors to address painful truths through a surreal lens.
>>25039980Fantasy written before 2001, of course.
>>25040315>Parker in SpaceIt's alright.
>>25041406Adams plagiarized Sheckley's Dimension of Miracles.
Is the 2nd Sun Eater book more original or is it still a plagiarism fiesta?
I was posting these chapters in here as I was writing this last year, but now I published it via Kindle Direct, so it's on yer Amazons. I took it down from my Substack, but there's still the other stuff up there. (substack.com/@marenovum)
>>25041813It's more its own thing. EoS was edited to read like Name of the Wind, Ruocchio had more latitude with HD onward.It's also a lot more interesting, introducing some horror and metaphysical elements and clarifying the main conflict. The book's villain is one of the series' best side characters.
>>25041826I'll give it a read then, but that first book was grim. I don't get how it was published at all.
Looking for non-warhammer /m/ or mil sci Fi with a focus on vehicle related stuff Recs?
>>25040917It's not really progression fantasy except in the vague sense that the protag is working towards getting better at magic through the book. It's not one of those "MMO literally translated into book form" books where the protag activates a cheat code to get to level 25 and learn the world destroying technique. It's more like a coming-of-age adventure. Pretty much everything Larry has written is solid, well-paced, and fun. This one feels a little more YA than his other works, but it's still enjoyable.
>>25041831Enjoy, anon. EoS dragged for me but HD sold me on the series.
>>25041854>not one of those "MMO literally translated to book for"That's good. I've got a big backlog of old pulp to read though, probably won't get to it for a while.
>>25038917But thats literally what happened with the Peoples Crusade
>>25041854Knew it was just a marketing gimmick. Larry doesn't strike me as the type that'd be up-to-date with webnovel trends or webnovels in general.
>>25040350Except the battle hes referring to is based on the Siege of Antioch in the First Crusade where that literally happened. The crusaders were beseiged, starving, outnumbered, till some charlatan claimed to have a dream leading him to the Holy Lance, dug there and found a splinter of wood, and the Crusaders promptly marched out and somehow won.Honestly Bakkers version is more believable than what actually happened since in his army their spurred on by a literal miracle and not a bit of wood.
>>25041647I can understand that you find it contrived, but you should also be able to recognize that this is REALLY just primarily a historical reference to the People's Crusade and that it just isn't that deep. Its function within the story is about establishing tone more than anything else. You can of course criticize it and say that this reference makes the overall story weaker as much as you like because you find it inorganic, but at least do so with the understanding of what the author's intent is with its inclusion. I think when you over-analyze like this you just ultimately end up missing the point. Though I find your contentions with the story interesting.When it comes divine intervention making stories arbitrary, I can't say much without giving you spoilers for the later books, but I'd push back on the comparison to biblical arbitrariness. Yes, Eärwa is not naturalistic and it does have metaphysical forces at work, but that doesn't make it philosophically meaningless in the that way you're suggesting. The presence of gods or fate doesn't automatically equal "anything can happen for no reason." What matters to me when it comes to stories that feature godlike forces is whether those forces operate according to consistent internal logic within the story. Whether Bakker achieves this in the end however can be discussed.Also, since you brought up the turned-to-stone story where God turns someone to stone for looking, it is actually SALT, which if you are paying attention you will note as being what happens to a sorcerer when they are touched by a Chorae.
>>25041647Hitler thought he could win two wars in opposite directions. Leaders have made tons of terrible blunders out of overconfidence in history, especially when it's not proper generals calling the shots. I think you're overestimating the rationality of people with inherited positions of power.
>>25041494>Or fantasy novels that could be described as "psychological"bumping this guy due to equal interest
>>25040860bump
>over-emotive_brownoid_pepe.png>wall of text about Bakker>samefaggingFuck off.
>>25041897I appreciate you actually responding to everything I said and not taking my aggression as an attack. I think youre likely overall right. Unfortunately no story is perfect, and one of my favourite TV shows ever, I've tolerated arguably even more ridiculous or poor instances of writing that didnt ruin it (although to be fair, its an episodic show, so its less vulnerable to contrivance breaking things) until the final seasons.When it comes to problems like these, I basically just want to think them out loud to see if im being reasonable or if the story is being reasonable Its not that I cant tolerate a problem like this. Its that I need to make sure I understand it enough, to trust the story moving forward.I like that you were honest about whether Bakker achieves the organic internally consistent logic to be something to be discussed. Fans of some art, or book, or show, or movie that are more open to discussion, instill more confidence in me of their appreciation for that art.Ill keep reading. Thanks.>it is actually SALT, which if you are paying attention you will note as being what happens to a sorcerer when they are touched by a Chorae.Interesting, I "read" that story when I was a child, and not even directly through the bible (because I was a child) but through what was essentially a collection of the stories of the bible for kids. So my memory of it isnt precise. Its interesting that thats what happens to a sorcerer when touched by Chorae, I thought they simply burst into flames or melted away flesh like some demon being exorcised or something.
need fantasy recs similar to mistborn, it's not that they are specially good but it's just what i'm craving rn, interesting worldbuilding and magic systems, good side chars, decent story and entertaining fights. I already tried red rising, dungeon crawler carl and i'm reading six of crows rn and doing alright. A trilogy would be good not a 15 book saga.
>>25042066Just read Sandon Branderson's other stuff. It's more YAslop with hard magic. Should scratch the same itch.
>>25041888I havent even gotten to that part of the Book yet. But I did some research because unlike you guys, I simply don't believe reality is as stupid as you guys imply. There is ALWAYS a reason for something, there is always some relation of understanding that leads to certain behaviours and actions. Even the stupid fanatical Christians of the past, weren't stupid enough to not understand their enemy, to not make the appropriate decisions, and to not SUCCEED ON MERIT and taking due advantage of circumstance.I think you guys are just reading my criticism wrong. I saw some dude say "Hitler thought hed win two sides of a war so that means stupid things happen in real life!"What are you talking about? The war lasted like nearly a decade. Russia suffered the heaviest losses. Part of the entire reason the UK is a shell of itself in the modern day and a shit, weak irrelevant country now is because of the losses they suffered against the Germans. Germany never would have been able to invade England (and never intended to) but it almost "won" multiple times.Even stupid decisions have reasons. The entire point of my criticism, is that Calmemunis has such bad reasons for doing what he did, that it GOES AGAINST HIS OWN GOALS. There have been emperors in the past with far more grand and "delusional" goals than Hitlers desire to win a war on two fronts, who actually succeded. The problem isnt the goal, or the desire. It is the way in which it is approached and the attempts at it being realized.Calmemunis acted in a way that had no reason, no strategy behind it.I just read about the first Crusade and Siege of Antioch and I have no idea what youre talking about. They did the opposite of Calmemunis, they waited for reinforcements, anticipated enemy army reinforcements and ambushed them, they even fucking punished themseleves with fasting for pillaging, because earthquakes made them think God was mad at them.Calmemunis never showed any principle belief to God to actually starve his own troops in repentance, its like a shallow superficial belief of his Gods, with none of the rituals and actions that God fearing people actually fulfill. Atleast I have more reason to believe the Crusaders were actually doing the things they did with some semblance of consistent values.And what you said about them "Starving" was remedied in spring when they pushed back and army reinforcement from Seljuk, who came across one of the garrisons during their retreat, holding a town to deprive the Crusaders of supplies, and once they saw that their reinforcements retreated, they retreated themselves. All of this was very clearly sensible and understandable. The progression of how the prevailed isnt dictated by the one arbitrary action of a Stupid man, somehow given enough power to fuck shit up.Seriously go read it yourself, its astonishing how smart the Crusaders were in taking advantage of every situation presented to them
Look, I've already accepted a bit of contrivance. You guys arent going to win on this one. You cant just appeal to vague details of history going in a way you percieve as "stupid" to counter my point lol. I will seriously read an entire history book if I have to.I dont expect a random fantasy author to include the depth of detail contained in the annals of history book. I just expect a basic justification for the actions and events that take place in a story, ones that cant easily be picked about by a modicum of critical thought applied.We'll see if the "Holy War is on the brink of defeat, and then anime battle cry, where they just believe, saves them" actually happens lol. Even something like that, I could accept, if the magic of the universe is a sufficient explanation that doesnt feel like a retarded cop out. But yeah, I like the characters and the dialogue, so i really hope it doesnt end up that stupid.
>>25042066Stormlight by Sanderson.
>>25041835The Bolos series by Keith Laumer
>>25042082>>25042145I'm currently reading stormlight but it's nothing like mistborn desu it's great but it's very different. And the thing with other Sanderson books is that they all are interconnected and have to read everything that came before to "understand it" as its fans say
>>25041711That would make it more like the equivalent of new wave sci-fi. Exploring real world themes with fictional sci-fi trappings as the vehicle. Trying to find the fantasy equivalent of "hard science fiction" is kind of an exercise in futility. Hard SF only exists because, ostensibly, science fiction is about science, and hard SF is supposed to be the subgenre that takes this idea actually seriously.Fantasy, in contrast, isn't "about" anything. It's just any fiction that rejects any notion of being based in the real world. Thus, it's conceptually the opposite of hard science fiction.
>>25042210>nd the thing with other Sanderson books is that they all are interconnected and have to read everything that came before to "understand it" as its fans sayNot really. They're all standalone but there are references. I read Stormlight before Mistborn and it didn't lessen my enjoyment of the series.
>>25042111The problem with you is that you are so focused on this without reading further first. In this series there are literal skinwalkers that kill and replace people.Calmemunis may have been one of these which would explain why he makes bad decisions to make sure the holy war fails.
>>25042127>"Holy War is on the brink of defeat, and then anime battle cry, where they just believe, saves them"Oh no no no *giggle* Though atleast this occurs after an actual miracle
Favorite 'New Wave of Science Fiction' writers/novels?
>>25042226>Calmemunis may have been one of these which would explain why he makes bad decisions to make sure the holy war fails.Yeah. Which is exactly one of the possible valid reasons I gave. But I know its not the case, because I've already spoiled myself a bit, and I deliberately inquired about it so that somebody could explain that away. Even if that did end up being true, it would still be one of those awkward bouts of writing, where the explanation seems like convenient post hoc handwaving, because in the moment, the event made no sense, but was revealed to actually totally make sense due to information one couldnt possibly have access to otherwise.I think there should be some hint or suggestion that hes a skin walker, especially since Sarcellus already opened us up to that possibility. The problem, is, that would require very delicate writing to not feel like a different kind of contrived.
>>25042243I mean its a taste thing if you like that kind of writing or not but he does do that a lot in this series.
>>25042261I just feel like it can be done better. He was already incredibly smart and particular with the conversation that literally precedes Calmemunis starting the Holy War early, when Xerius explains how he will use that to his political and strategic advantage. I just dont really understand why something equivalent couldnt be done. Seriously Calmemunis just rushes into things so quickly right after, theres barely any character interaction or dialogue, theres zero depth to be reaped from the entire event, its abundantly boring, aswell as being poorly set up. It almost feels like it only exists, so that Xerius CAN have some legitimate leverage on the Holy War.This isnt something that makes the entire book and everything preceding it bad. Its just something that wavers my confidence in the future of the book, and series as a whole.I didnt know tolerating contrivance was a "preference" but I guess it makes sense considering how netflix and TV shows progress in some of the most contrived ways possible. Its just that I fled from TV/Anime/Manga etc to novels to escape that pattern. But I should have figured itd be inherent to all writing. I still think the advantages the novel overall provides for character depth is worth it nonetheless though.
Can you quit it with the verbal diarrhea about Bakker?
>>25041835The Amtrak Wars series by Patrick Tilley.
>>25042280I didnt mean tolerating contrivance. I meant tolerating writing where things are going to happen first and you arent going to be able to understand it with the currently known information as it happens but it will be explained further down the line. Or atleast you will be given the "tools" to interpet it when you understand more.
>>25042238Moorcock, Aldiss, and Ballard are the New Wave Holy Trinity.
>>25042238
>>25037858I'm not saying Pierce Brown went to Brandon Sanderson's con because he knew he could soak with some blonde mormon chicks, but he certainly COULD have
>>25042327Yeah I made a mistake by generalizing with contrivance. I consider what you described to be a different kind of "contrivance" potentially.Just think about it. If in a story, you can set it up in a way where an event occurs that intiitally doesnt make sense, is later explained to make sense due to information you never had access to, or was never established beyond the mere mention of its broad possibility (not its applied or specialized possibility) then how is that any different than the thousands of anime ive watched where the protagonist gets back up but, because super secretly on the night of a blue moon when they were born, they were instilled with special chosen one powers, to revive them with new powers when theyre about to die.Thats why I said it has to be written very delicately to not just destroy the trust in the story.I could have used the "somehow, palpatine returned" example of that type of contrivance too, but i thought against it, as its too cheap a shot, and too desrespectful to how much better written i think Bakker is, even with his possible contrivances.
>>25042285whats the problem with discussing the actual writing of books in depth?
When does A Deadly Education get good?
>>25042208>>25042326Thanks anons!
>>25041494>Psychopathic MCsObviously, Thomas Cov.
>>25042375At the part where she kills the big monster or something, idk
>>25042375If the MC doesn't catch you straight away, I'd probably give up on it. She's basically the same the whole way through only a little less standoffish.
>>25042330>Aldissunderrated writer imho
>>25040860Uh somebody answer this brah
>>25041078Whyd this guys never recommend someone?
>>25042492Ursula le guinea books are often in the "thought experiment" style
>>25042519Does that sacrifice Character Writing? When I say thought experiment, I definitely dont want trash like the 3 body problem. Thanks for the recc nonetheless, Ursala Le Guinea sounds oddly familar and yet Im pretty sure i have no idea what it is.
>>25042487Quite. No matter what the times demanded, he always could write good stories.
>>25042515I know of a little free library that has this book. I'll check it tomorrow.
Recently read Raising the Stones by Sheri S. Tepper. It was OK but it's clearly a book about religion written by someone without any real curiosity about the subject so it comes off glib. It's about a telepathic alien fungus that causes the settlers on a colony world to become more peaceful, it would have been better if the book ever seriously entertained any downside to this. Octavia Butler's Lilith's Brood trilogy is a better execution of a similar idea of a benevolent alien intervention, because it grapples with ideas of self determination in the aftermath.
>>25042560How is Grass? I usually see it recommended everywhere.
>>25042567Haven't read it, I picked this up at the library and heard it was basically self contained even though it's part of a trilogy.
>>25039892That was honestly the best endorsement I've heard for it so far. I'm going to pick up the first book and see how I like it.
>>25042350I get what you mean but no you wont find any of that slop in Bakker. The whole thing is written with the ending in mind. To me Bakker actually somewhat manages to introduce a kind of reverse contrivance. Where scenes that already work on a human level but arent exactly "explanied" as in you kinda just have to take your best guess as to why it went down that way. And lets say you land on an interesting conclusion. Well now with the later elements you are instead invited to think "ah maybe it was "divine" influence" which I fucking hate because it is such boring explanation when I already had a far more interesting one cooked up. (Book 2 Cnaiur and Kellhus scene im looking at you)Now he doesnt say that it's literally that, but it opens that up as an acceptable maybe even likely take instead of it being a character choice. Which is bad writing because it discourages trying to work out the subtle motivations behind characters actions and choices. Which you know feels like kind of the concept here to some degree.
>>25038881Men were also often forced to marry women. Though the religion at the time stressed marriage for love, older custom saw marriage as an affair that involved the whole community. Regardless, I don't see how that explains the whole patriarchy makes women either whores or something else. I doubt it actually means anything.
>>25042650>Which is bad writing because it discourages trying to work out the subtle motivations behind characters actions and choices. Which you know feels like kind of the concept here to some degree.I understand, which is my exact problem with contrivance. It often wastes away an opportunity for depth, or greater reveals/understandings. And reframes characters as mere and pure tools of the plot/themes/whatever underlying thing an author wants to appeal to.Anyway I just hope his reverse contrivance or whatever is all worth it for the greater theme or point, if it seems hes going to retroactively overshadow character interactions and their meanings like this.
Before you make a new thread, thoughts on the Books of Babel series? is it as biblical as Second Apocalypse?
I fail too see what people see in Bakker. I don't find pretty basic nihilism with some givens about damnation as being default to be very interesting philosophocally speaking. It is more likely that Bakker is actually just a standard, non-epicurean hedonist who thinks that the only thing that matters in life is to gratify one's base and meaningless desires.
>>25042757I only read like 1/5 of the first book, I liked a lot but had to postpone the full reading, there is too much on my list now. So far I don't see any parallel with the Bible or Bakker, but seems to be a nice book.
>>25042783you don't know what nihilism means.
>>25042783I think you are mixing Bakker with his characters. People in the SA are indeed insanely basic in their desires and their ways to achieve them, the few with a little compassion feel doomed in that world. It falls to Kellhus to make order from that chaos. There are other works like that, the comic book Watchmen is the best example: chaotic word, a few try to change things, fall into despair, it takes a superior mind to try to change things.
>>25042783The reason you don't get it is probably because you think its nihilistic when it actually isn't. Damnation is also not default. Not for the humans atleast.
>>25042817>Damnation is also not default. Not for the humans atleast.wait i thought it was. every single soul is a grain of wheat to be harvested in the afterlife.
>>25042783I think the setting is incredibly interesting and Kellhus is a pageturner.
>>25042809I do, actually.>>25042815No. I've read his blogposts too. I am also not stupid enough to have the point of the series, that Kellhus is just a compromised megalomaniac and that reason does not lead to salvation, all gods are parasitistic because domination is inherent to all consciousness and domination is bad because suffering, fly over my head. It doesn't take a superior mind to change things, and Kellhus gets damned because he was a meat puppet of Ajokli.>>25042817It is nihilistic. damnation is default. Salvation is not earned via any moral means. Bakkers whole schtick is that meaning is just a meaningless metabolic process and the gods are parasitistic predators who, like humans, are driven by hunger. Don't ask me why hell is default. To bakker, it just seems that way given what he posits about his universe and, to some degree, ours.
>>25042847Explain Mimara then.
>>25042846I mean, grimdark does often awaken some morbid fascination, I do not lie. But to me, it just becomes depressing after a certain point and when people try to mix some dark determinism into it. Hits too close to home, I guess. Or maybe I just become insecure about my own intelligence. I don't really see anything in Kellhus but Bakker making a point about determinism and being super smart makes you a god, even though there's more going on he's unaware of and the whole 'darkness that comes before' stuff.I just realized I spoiled in my previous post.
>>25042847>I do, actually.Brilliant use of languge. The most ironic thing ever about "grrr nihilism!" damners is the fact that they are always always always ALWAYS with zero self awareness whatsoever, the exact people that fundamentally destroy the capacity for "meaning" that inadvertently affirm "nihilism".I don't really want or care to deal with somebody like this. They are never saying anything, and they will never possess the self awareness to want to say something. Because thats not what animals are for.
>>25042870Don't forget Kellhus true Dunyain son (who is potentially better than him) sniffing nonman PEDs and then immediately killing himself upon realizing some ultimate truth.
>>25042815You also do not get it. Kellhus is just as fucking dumb as everyone else he just lacks the instruments to realise it. Where as normal humans are blinded by a lack of intelligence he is blinded by an excess of intelligence and the price for that intellect is not free. There is a trade off.If Kellhus is "special" it is not because of himself or his mind because he is the same as other dunyain. It is because of what happens on the circumfix. That burning heart was LITERAL. It is Serwe that makes Kellhus truly special. Though of course only someone with my Kellhus like level of intellect can comprehend why that is.>>25042836In the metaphysics of Eärwa the soul is ETERNAL. So if you are destined for damnation then that means your soul is already burning in hell before you are even born. So the reason you cannot redeem yourself or avoid damnation is because it's your souls destiny to end up there by I guess either later acts if you are currently innocent or you get unlucky and your soul gets "caught" then eaten / tormented by a god when you die. Pretty sure this isn't really explained (yet)
>>25042896>Pretty sure this isn't really explained (yet)The series is not done?
>>25042867The Eye does commit Bakker to some moral structure in his world and I guess it shows things that might not entirely be reducible to appetite, but i don't recall tge standard ever actually being described. It was more opaque, was it not? Also, what Mimara sees ultimately doesn't change anything and it offers no guidence, which I think is the main purpose of morality.I feel like I need to read Wolfe after this. It's a very solid series, but it just wasn't for me.
>>25042894>then immediately killing himself upon realizing some ultimate truth.Yeah. Tgere's a Ligotti story where something similar happens. Forget the name. Think it was Anima mundi.
>>25042896>You also do not get it. Kellhus is just as fucking dumb as everyone elseI agree with this to a point, because we don't have the end yet - and probably we'll never have. But in my comparisson, Ozymandias from Watchmen clearly get fucked in the end, his grand plan is doomed. I don't know if Bakker will ever write the last trilogy and bring Kellhus back, smiling "keikaku" to everyone, but it's very possible that it will end like you described.
>>25042911Next books are probably about the surviving twin son of Mimara (aka Ma Mari, aka Mother Mary).He will save humanity from the Whirlwind right?
>>25042922>offers no guidence,And again, this is because Bakker is a hard determinist
>>25042926>surviving twin son of Mimarateaming up with crab hand boy maybe?
>>25042238Dying Inside by Robert Silverberg. Also his other New Wave stuff is generally pretty good.
Somebody posted this on a previous thread, is it from a book? Can't find the source
>>25043290Gives me This Immortal (Zelazny) vibes but idk
>>25043290Against the Demon World by D.M. Ritzlin.
>>25042891Your flippant reply begot a flippant response. Get over yourself.
>>25043313>>25043321That's it. Many thanks!
>>25037016>Decided to read picrel out of interest for older and forgotten epic famfasy. >Female MC's arc is solely revolved around the cruel man mentally and physically beating her into submission and sex with him. But of course.
>>25037636did literally nothing wrong
>>25041468honestly didn't care for this one since I never liked Murphy and she was an annoying character so having half the book dedicated to Dresden just moping about her death wasn't for me. also the book itself is also kind of middling, basically no actual plotline felt more like a connection of short stories. only engaging part was with Dracula's dad.
>>25041468I liked the book overall, it was a great character growth book and gave a lot of characters needed time to breathe. I think it works best if you take peace talks, battle grounds and 12 months as a whole book think warmup, action, recovery.With that being said it also felt like a collection of short stories rather than his normal novel Style. I think that had something to do with the frequent time skips. Dresden was down on himself pretty hard throughout the book but I think we forget that most of the books take place about a year or so apart and this is the first time we've seen his immediate after action recovery stuff. It also goes into the fact that his Soul took a extra hard beeting because of how he raised mabs spiritual flag for her army and felt all of the deaths. I actually didn't like the last fight in the book I don't think it had enough build up-he didn't really do enough detective work it just kind of happened. It was a decent enough fight though.Also James Marsters gave a truly fantastic emotional performance in the audiobook.Given some things butcher has said an interviews and the thank you Paige at the beginning of the book I get the feeling that a lot Harry's depression is actually butchers depression bleeding through. I also wonder how much writing Harry as depressed fed into butcher's depression kind of like a vicious cycle.Was Murphy based off butcher's wife? I get the sinking suspicion that she was because he finally has them get together, then butcher goes through a messy divorce, can't write Dresden because of copyright reasons for a few years, and when he finally writes another book he kills Murphy. I also wonder how long he was planning on killing Murphy or if it was a spur of the moment thing kind of like butcher deciding to bring back Maggie. He has said in interviews that Maggie was supposed to disappear and never be seen again but he changed his mind because that would be very out of character for Dresden not to want to be in his daughter's life. It's too bad that Mouse became Maggie's defecto protector it was nice having him on the front lines all the time I wonder what the plan was with mouse initially that got abandoned because it would make character sense to have him guard Maggie.
>>25041468Also- how I pictured bear every time she showed up
>>25043481it seemed kind of selfish for Dresden to demand Maggie be with him in his castle or whatever. she's perfectly safe in Michael's house with angels watching her and it's not as if he can't constantly visit her. seems irresponsible for him to move her knowing how dangerous it is
>>25042475I don't dislike the protagonist, it just feels like a bunch of random events that have no relevance. Very monster-of-the-week like. I assume this is building up to some grander story given that it's a trilogy but I'm not really seeing it yet.
>>25043607In that case definitely stick with it, there's lots of plot threads and setup in the early books that pay off really well and tie together really neatly thematically. The narrative voice is very matter of fact all the way through. "I did this, I went there, I said that" and so on and so forth.
Start a new damn thread before I piss myself
>>25037326embrace the slop
>>25038158the author has a gay anal sex fetish in case you weren't paying attention>>250377011. she is a woman2. she is a literal whore from the start
>>25038917>Still like it, but its starting to drag for me especially around the part of Calememunis or whatever, being inexplicably stupidly stubborn, against all possible logic in wanting to start the Holy War earlier...when they clearly have a better chance by waiting, and literally have ZERO reason to not wait. And no amount of "faith" could possibly explain this irrationality. My mom is an irrational religious and spiritual person, but even she would never say "Throw yourself infront of a train, God will save you".bro it's a fucking barely fictionalized retelling of the first crusade for the most partlike even the retarded "siege within a siege" arc with a LITERAL deus ex machina resolution happened IRL
new thread for you mulignans>>25044072
>>25042803Just tell us you got filtered. It's okay.
>>25042330>>25042487>>25042547what books by him do you recommend?
>>25042911>Achamian/Mimara/Serwa are alive at the end of the battle and teleport away, Cnaiur is still alive>Zeum's army was not devastated by the Great Ordeal and never bought into Kellhus' bullshit>There exists a weapon, whose location is possibly known to the Scylvendi, which killed the No-God before>We know that Kellhus has been to Hell, swaps his head with those of demons from time to time, and has some kind of treaty with Hell, so even he isn't fully out of the pictureThe series is not over. It's just that we don't know if Bakker actually intends to finish it.
>>25042847Second Apocalypse posits a world where meaning and purpose are objective and real, but horrific. Then it has eruptions of nihilism from within (Dunyain) and without (Inchoroi) which turn out to be even worse than the horrific-but-meaningful base state.
