FRIEDRICH GULDA EDITIONhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkzQKxlml1AThis thread is for the discussion of music in the Western (European) classical tradition, as well as classical instrument-playing.>How do I get into classical?This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:https://rentry.org/classicalgenprev: >>129035144
It's timehttps://files.catbox.moe/75qlz8.flacI'm so excited. I've no doubts it will live up to the hype.
playing instruments is a mechanical skill, you act like a machine, just following the instructions of the sheet mindlessly, that's why there are good pianists like Martha Argerich and Mitsuko Uchida.composing is an intellectual skill, you don't see good female composers in the same way you don't see good female mathematicians or engineers.
Schnittkehttps://youtube.com/watch?v=6mJ4-ChAVnM
What are some works possessed of a primitive, elemental vitality, similar to Rite of Spring and Carmina Burana?
now playing, time to finally try this setstart of Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 1 in G Minor, Op. 13, "Winter Dreams"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8U2W_3x2Y4&list=OLAK5uy_nYrKx4PreFjeZP1Qj9cl5thYfC5i5TKTU&index=2start of Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 2 in C Minor, Op. 17, TH 25 "Little Russian"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W3wd6T17Tw&list=OLAK5uy_nYrKx4PreFjeZP1Qj9cl5thYfC5i5TKTU&index=6start of Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 3 in D Major, Op. 29, TH 26 "Polish"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QnJIJM0w-E&list=OLAK5uy_nYrKx4PreFjeZP1Qj9cl5thYfC5i5TKTU&index=9https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nYrKx4PreFjeZP1Qj9cl5thYfC5i5TKTUI think I sampled this once before and the sound quality was shockingly subpar. If it ends up being no good, I don't know, I'll switch to the Rostropovich or V. Petrenko sets. But hopefully I can listen to all six symphonies from this cycle, least to just have done it once since it is Bernstein.
>>129044425Geirr Tveitt - Baldurs draumar
>>129044416This is what plays when you're walking down the winding stone staircase into hell. In a good way, of course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0canLobyboWhy the fuck is this playing barefoot? How is that allowed? Do any other female pianists engage in similar shameless attention-drawing behaviour, besides dressing like streetwalkers (e.g. Yuja and Khatia)?
Huh, Klemperer recorded Tchaikovsky 4/5/6, I did not know that. I'll save that and the boxset it comes in for another day, but that's certainly intriguing, and I'm sure the interpretation is just as idiosyncratic as the overall quality and dramatic power of the performance is wonderful. If someone else is in the mood to try it:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpXsQjQlBmU&list=OLAK5uy_nELbxYo-eL1bDtj-kF4VXgjMJoLlrZlTk&index=68The boxset also contains a plenitude of other goodies, eg Schumann, Berlioz, Mendelssohn, and more.
>>129044470I remember having a similar discussion about a different woman pianist over a year ago, so it's definitely a thing to add to their overall sex appeal and marketing, and it works.feet sexo
>>129044470>>129044483>female performerNot listening!
Mozart - GoetheBeethoven - Shakespeare Wagner - Proust Xenakis - BorgesMahler - DostoevskySchoenberg - JoyceWebern - Beckett
>>129044623>Fagner is a homosexual and died of AIDsCorrect.
>>129044633Wagner raped your mind.
>>129044470>>129044483lots of pianists play barefoot. you have a better feel for the pedals.
>>129044623bizarrely inaccurate
>>129044649Adam Kalmbach.
was Reger an alcoholic?
>>129044651Yeah just like organists.... SHIIIIIEEEEEET
>Following his return to Vienna after his second season in New York in the summer of 1909, Mahler found himself surrounded by a group of young admirers, including Schoenberg and Zemlinsky, and asked them their opinion of Dostoevsky, only to discover that they knew the writer merely by name. Mahler is then said to have turned to Schoenberg and exclaimed: ‘But Schoenberg, what’s all this? Let the young people who are studying with you read Dostoevsky – that’s more important than counterpoint.’>The American pianist Olga Samaroff, who married the conductor Leopold Stokowski, once sat next to Mahler at a dinner held by the Steinways in New York. Her attempts to engage him in conversation proved unsuccessful and seemed even to make him more uncivil than ever until she remembered that prior to the meal she had seen him take down a copy of The Brothers Karamazov from his hosts’ bookcase. Very fond of the novel herself, she none the less wanted to provoke Mahler and, feigning innocence, asked him whether he did not think that the book was much overrated. That saved the evening, at least for Mahler and Olga Samaroff, as he spent the next few hours convincing her of the novel’s merits.
Kill all quotefags
Reposting from yesterday. Does anyone know where this melody is from? Its been stuck in my head and none of the music identifying apps are any help. https://vocaroo.com/1cVkXqmdpw7i
>>129045059>read Dostoevsky – that’s more important than counterpoint.’No. Just no.
>>129044400>he can’t perceive artistic expressionpleb outs himself
>>129045259Brainlet
>>129045334Absolute music is a higher artistic peak than fairy tales written in broken language.
>>129045334>t. can't even compose a minuetImbecile.
Philosophy (real)=Mathematics>Absolute music>Physics>>>History>Programmatic music>>>>Fairy tales (fiction)=Philosophy (fake)=Psychology=Dogshit>>>Cinema=4chan
Can I get some recs for albums/recordings of medieval music?
>>129045520
>>129044483sex
>>129044623Incredibly retarded post.
>>129044623>Wagner - ProustCorrect. Finally someone gets it.
>schoenberg played modernistically:/>schoenberg played romantically:D
what song is thishttps://www.youtube.com/shorts/HOldBjHd_Qk
F to Bela Tarr. Listening to some of Víg's music that was used in his filmshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad5alnTNGBU
>>129046110Correct, that's the way Schoenberg wanted it.
Why was Wagner such a Chad?>Wagner had already seduced Bülow's sister, when he got tired decided to try with his wife, who was known to be an easy woman. Then Cosima had two daughters from him which Bülow had to cover up with his surname, to save his image. Bülow kept conducing Wagner's works, until Wagner fired him and run away with his wife. Liszt later called this "a moral homicide".
>>129046465More like a psychopath with no musical talent
>baroque chamber triosAbsolute peak, string quartets can fuck themselves
>>129046575Both are, quite frankly, garbage. An orchestra is far superior, and there is no valid, logical reason to bother with chamber ensambles in the current day, you can listen to orchestra everywhere and anytime. Facts don't care about your feelings.
If a composer can't write great string quartets, then they are not great, period. String quartets should be the final criteria by which composers are judged on their skill.By this criteria the greatest of all time are:1. mozart2. beethoven3. schoenberg4. carter5. janacek6. berg7. bartok8. schubert9. haydn10. ives11. webern12. debussy13. smetana14. shostakovich15. ravel16. mendellsohn17. szymanowski18. schumann19. brahms20. ligeti21. zemlinsky22. verdi23. ferneyhough24. sibelius25. fauré...91. britten...9001. feldman
>>129046613>bigger=better, more=better, louder=greaterThank you firetrucker.
>>129046613insanely retarded
>>129046636>3. schoenberg>4. carter>5. janacek>10. ives>11. webernLol.Kek.Rofl.LMAO.Didn't even bother reading past that.
>>129046676Filteredhttps://youtu.be/FOSFulkl4o0?si=e5dAe9ewtYomtFtD
>>129046465Wagner didn’t fit into masculine norms: in the privacy of his own home, he liked to wear, touch, smell and see things—very soft things—that he associated with the feminine, particularly when composing.As Dreyfus wrote in his book,“...the composer seems to have experienced a sensuous harmony, erotic arousal, and a creative surge when both wearing and touching women’s satin garments in the privacy of his personal grottos, always enhanced by the pronounced sent of roses.”At each of his homes, he developed a sanctuary of femininity for inspiration. I described that lair in the last post. His seamstress Bertha Goldwag adds details, recounting one such room in her reminisces in 1906:A single room about the size of a closest was decorated with extravagant splendor in keeping with Wagner’s most detailed instructions. The walls were lined with silk, with relievo garlands all the way around. From the ceiling hung a wonderful lamp with a gentle beam. The whole of the floor was covered in heavy and exceptionally soft rugs in which your feet literally sank....No one was allowed to enter this room. Wagner always remained there alone.Wagner believed that “love was the eternal feminine itself,” and his music was always centered on love. Therefore, he wanted to be in touch with the feminine as he wrote, to be both man and woman at the same time. From all evidence—his autobiography, letters, prose and music—he was personally very comfortable with his feminine side, and considered it a crucial part of his sensitivity and of necessity for this work. That said, he was well aware of societal attitudes about it and that his compositional methods would lead to public scorn, so he did his best to hide his penchants. Normally, that meant others—people close to him who understood his needs—were dispatched to buy his silk and satin, his perfumes, his negligées and silk panties.
>>129046777Among his couriers was Nietzsche, according to this account from a friend of his:Nietzsche asked me in the most concerned manner where he might find a good silk shop in Basel. Eventually he admitted he had undertaken to shop for a pair of silk underpants for Wagner, and this important matter filled him with anxiety; for—added the smiling iconoclast—“once you’ve chosen a God, you’ve got to adorn him."
>>129046676Schoenberg is too hight at 3 but he should indeed be in the top 10
>>129046643>>bigger=better, more=better, louder=greaterCorrect. Objectively speaking, that is better.
>>129046636>Schumann's and Brahms string quartets ahead of Faure's>Carter's set anywhere near the top 10 let alone top 25>>129046613opinion discarded
>>129046904>Objectively speakingBased retard.
>>129046636This, except maximalist (in every aspect) symphonies which only leaves who? Oh right. Lo and behold, the one and only great composer.
most people here seem very young in the way they speak. what do you think the average age here is?
>>1290474989, mostly dragged down by BABIAA and /metal/ posters, who are intellectualy not even out of their mother's wombs.
>>129047498I sincerely hope no one is still on this website over the age of 27 right?
Webernhttps://youtu.be/eQ0nqtsbWHs
>>129047498>>12904752135 years on tranime incel website awardWalking coffin awardHitting retirement age awardLow T awardUgly old hag awardStuck here forever award
>>129047498>>129047521>>129047547>t. neurotics
>>129047579>>129047587>BABIAA and /metal/ poster called out>instant seething commenceslel. children.
>>129047616>calls others children>"lel">"seething"Imagine being 55 years old still stuck on this website speaking like you, Loving Every Laugh.
Who has the highest quality/output ratio?
>>129047689Chopin and Mahler, without a doubt.
>>129047689No one wants to admit it, but Mozart was a slop merchant.
>>129047689BachBrahmsBoulez
>>129047689I'm a bit surprised Schumann and Debussy have as much as they have, and Satie and Scriabin so little>>129047769Any honest man can admit that.
>>129047689Mozart, Beethoven and Liszt
>>129047769The greatest slop merchant of all time however
>>12904749836 with two kids. Pray for them please its not easy being the sons of a guy who likes opera unironically
>>129044433Tried several movements and the sound is missing some frequencies for sure, brass sounds really flat. Didn't hear anything particularly interesting in terms of interpretation so dropped. Bernstein is a Mahler guy, which is an opposite of Tchaikovsky in some ways, so dunno why you insist on completing this cycle.
Everyone knows Boulez is an amazing conductor regardless if you like him as a composer or not. To be a conductor you have to know the music you conduct intimately, so his opinions should be taken seriously.Boulez on other composers:>He accused Schoenberg, after his death, of the “most ostentatious and obsolete romanticism.”>Webern was “too simple.”>Berg suffered from “bad taste”>Ravel suffered from “affectation.”>Twelve-tone music in its extant form was overrun by “number-fanatics” who engaged in “frenetic arithmetic masturbation.”>Boulez’s teacher, Olivier Messiaen, produced “brothel music.”>John Cage, who was at one time an ally of Boulez, became a “performing monkey”>Karlheinz Stockhausen became a “hippie.”>The American minimalists displayed a “supermarket aesthetic”>the American serialists had a “cashier’s point of view.”>Brahms was a “bore”>Tchaikovsky was “abominable”>Verdi was “stupid, stupid, stupid!”>"Well, Shostakovich plays with clichés most of the time, I find. It's like olive oil, when you have a second and even third pressing, and I think of Shostakovich as the second, or even third, pressing of Mahler."
>>129048582I quite like Bernstein's conducting is why. Thanks for giving it a try.
>>129047791Debussy and Schumann were prolific songwriters, which a lot of people seem to overlook
>>129047791>I'm a bit surprised Schumann and Debussy have as much as they haveSchumann's complete solo piano music usually occupies ~12 or discs. He's got secular choral music which adds up to 4 hours. All the chamber works. Then the songs. Oh and don't forget the oratorios. It adds up.
>Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Handel, and Rebel's trio sonatasChamber music just seems pointless after these guys, I feel like Haydn, Franck, Ravel, Beethoven(late), and Debussy only seem to come close
compare these two openings of Chopin's Preludesfirsthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ3CdN-4aac&list=OLAK5uy_n7BHMuZElIUH0hV1oah8od6LN47MbpGWk&index=1thenhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngBKxndnkgg&list=OLAK5uy_nYfG9rnn2c0NuDlx-ibuHI-Am6AaLYhYI&index=1oh Pletnev, always the contrarian
now playinghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQqRFRB7Yos
Brahms feels like an ending.Wagner feels like a beginning.Comparing the two of them, it's just too flawed in approach.
Ludwig has been playing nothing but classical on his streams lately. Are zoomers finally getting into classical
>>129049518>zoomersspeak of them not.
>>129049518Schlatt introduced the Tannhauser overture to millions of zoomers.
The Tannhäuser overture is practically a trans hymn
>>129046465Melatonin enriched behaviour
more like Trannhauser
>>129047689A lot of the stuff counted isn't exactly stuff released to the public. Mozart wrote a ton of pot boilers which obviously weren't his best work
>>129049208>le the first guys did it best memeI mean like you wanna like but c'mon
>tfw if opera didn't exist, we could have hundreds of more symphonies and oratorios, dozens of them masterpiecessad, like Joyce wasting almost two decades of his life on Finnegans Wake
>>129050289>wasted two decades creating the magnum opus of modern lit (imo mogged by woolf but come on)
>>129050613I didn't say he wasted his time writing Ulysses.
>>129046110+1
>>129050267its the truth
>>129050657is this the part where you tell me >actually Haydn perfected the string quartet and symphony
Water Music is the greatest orchestral baroque set ever composed, you can disagree with me, but its the truth, only Vivaldi and Corelli come close.
>>129050641truly entry level take
>>129050669Nope, but came damn close, that would be Beethoven(late), specifically Symphony Nos. 3, 6 and 7, and String Quartets Nos. 7, 13, 14, and 15
Were there cello suites and solo violin sonatas and partitas before Bach? Surely he didn't create those forms?
>>129050684>no Rossini>no Verdi>no WagnerAnother midwit filtered by the greatest art form of all.
It's time (again)https://files.catbox.moe/1vhs3p.flac
>>129050835Opera haters are so dumb they listen to hours of Handel and Mahler and don't realise they're enjoying opera singing.
>>129050684only one of those composers is white. the rest are wogs.
>>129052363All of them are white. Even Mahler, who's a jew, is still obviously 'white'. Take your meds.
>>129052376factually incorrect. only English Protestants are white.
>>129052391>factually incorrect.Correct, what you said is factually incorrect.
>>129052398classic non-WASP cope.
>>129052413You mean non-dysgenicRetard? Thank the gods!
>>129049208You forgot the greatest Baroque chamber music composer of all time, silly!
>>129049208>>129052540Dummy!
Which composer is literally you?
>>129052701Mozart
>>129052701Chopin
Has anybody recorded opera with normal singing? I think there's some good music under the bleating goat noises they used to make before they had microphones and I'd like to hear it.
>>129052829>normal singingWhat's that?
>>129052858It's the kind of thing people say when they think they don't have an accent.
>>129052858Using the full range of expressive vocal technique as permitted by modern recording technology and as is standard practice in all other genres.
>>129052865You've described the exact opposite. "Normal" doesn't mean "using the full range of technique" and microphones aren't why opera singing sounds the way it does.You've managed to redefine "normal", misattribute opera technique to recording tech, and drag in unrelated genres, all to avoid answering a simple question.
>>129052862>>129052872You know exactly what is meant by "normal singing". Operatic singing intentionally sacrifices expression and individuality in service of maximizing loudness, which no longer makes sense now that we have microphones. Even the ridiculous vibrato serves to increase the perceived loudness. I don't care how loud a singer can sing. I want to hear more variety of vocal timbre and shallower vibrato used selectively for emphasis instead of a constant warbling.
>>129052829>>129052865Do you think your shitty pop/rock singers are using the FULL expressive range of all available vocal techniques? Classical singing is deliberately unnatural and specialized, that's the point, which is precisely why it filters plebs.
>>129052878It's specialized for a purpose that no longer makes sense. Praising operatic singing over pop singing is like praising chiptune over real piano. The technical limitations that motivated it no longer exist.
>>129052877Now instead of answering the question (badly, like a dilettante), you're falling back on the "you know what I mean" cope. That's not an argument.Singing isn't "normal" by default. There's no neutral baseline. Pop and rock singers routinely fake accents and adopt highly artificial vocal mannerisms. They don't sing the way they talk either. Singing isn't a natural human behavior in the way birdsong is; it's always stylized and trained.>sacrifices expression and individuality in service of maximizing loudnessPure nonsense and a misunderstanding of classical singing. Projection, vibrato, timbre, etc., aren't crude volume tricks. >>129052881This is the same mistake again: confusing technique and aesthetics with technological constraints.Operatic singing isn't a workaround for missing technology, it's a deliberate aesthetic choice. It wasn't invented because microphones didn't exist, any more than counterpoint was invented because recording tape didn't exist.Your chiptune analogy completely misses the point. Chiptune is defined by technical limitation. Classical vocal technique is defined by timbre, resonance, line, and projection as aesthetic values, not by some failed attempt to do pop singing louder.The assumption that specialization only "makes sense" if it solves a technical problem is pure techfag thinking. Art doesn't obsolete itself just because new tools exist. By that logic, oil painting, acoustic instruments, unamplified theatre, and handwritten literature should all have been retired.You clearly have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about and have shit taste.
>>129052881This. 100%.>>129052893>Pop and rock singers routinely fake accents and adopt highly artificial vocal mannerismsPop/rock singers are closer to folk singing, now of course there are outliers, but on average it's true. Folk music, which is usually speech-like (but melodious) is what's natural. It's what I and many others prefer and why we don't like opera.
>>129052893"Normal" obviously means culturally normal, which opera singing is not.>Pop and rock singers routinely fake accents and adopt highly artificial vocal mannerismsThis is a good thing, because it increases expression.>Projection, vibrato, timbre, etc., aren't crude volume tricks.They clearly are, because they reduce the range of vocal expression. If I listen to a random selection of popular music singers I will hear a far greater range of vocal technique than if I do the same with opera singers. Operatic technique does not use nasality/breathiness/distortion/proximity effect/varied vibrato/glides/varied accents/vocal sound effects/etc. Opera singing is objectively less expressive than popular music singing.
>>129052930Not only is it less expressive, but irritating too. If classical musicians actually realized that they're worshipping ashes instead of preserving the fire, classical music would begin to heal and attract larger audience. Which is of course a good thing, more recordings, more people to discuss with, less garbage in radios and TV, what's not to love? We already have more than enough of the old, why not make something new for once?
>>129052254While you're not entirely wrong, Handel and Mahler (generally) are closer to choral singing. Something like Haydn's The Creation is at the halfway point, as well as Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde -- but again, not quite opera.
>>129052977No, a great deal of the singing in Handel and Mahler is musically indistinguishable from the opera singing of their eras. A lot hinges on your 'generally', but the fact remains that retarded opera haters have listened to their vocal music at its most operatic and enjoyed it.
>>129052998>and enjoyed itBold of you to assume we (or me anyway) enjoy singing in Mahler more than orchestra. I'm not a huge fan of 8th, I almost exclusively listen to the instrumental symphonies(1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10 and 3rd, which is mostly instrumental, which covers most of Mahler), and I don't care about Das Lied.
>>129052998The 8th is a choral symphony, the singing in the 5th is choral and lieder, and the 2nd and 4th are like lieder. Lieder singing isn't 1:1 with opera singing. It's close, but not exact.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIBCiE_7Uk4&list=OLAK5uy_l5HZEYRg2a1ZgU5NdnxeZw9Db7ZcK3csw&index=1okay this does sound like opera but it doesn't have recitatives which is the part i hate most about opera
>>129053091>the singing in the 5thwut
>>1290531013rd*, sorry, just woke upliederhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hARQYCFk_cY&list=OLAK5uy_kOkJc_FQfuDWPs7FBLnhspQ5h6LtxsX94&index=18choralhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jQYrczpMwQ&list=OLAK5uy_kOkJc_FQfuDWPs7FBLnhspQ5h6LtxsX94&index=21BIMM BAMM
>>129053107Yeah there's something instantly appealing about the 'lieder' part in Mahler 3 that usually does not happen in operas. It's hard to describe what it is. It's not 'urgent', 'plot-driven babble', but a 'melodic accompaniment', music is mainly driven by orchestra still, and it is preceded by 3 instrumental movements. Also, as much as I love the 3rd, that bim bam part always makes me cringe. lol. It's a very nice melody though, but in the beginning especially it sounds ridiculous. I'm not sure if it means something in German.
Bachhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65vxSbQzmN4
>>129053142Right, it's all melodic. A lot of opera is talk-singing, which, unless you're following the libretto, isn't really enjoyable on its own.
Beethoven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5NsPOgyALI
>>129053091>>129053142So you're telling me you like opera singing you just dislike recitatives? Then you don't dislike opera. Most 'opera fans' just listen to the aria excerpts.
>>129053218Well, like I said, there's a lot of talk-singing in opera too. Are there some good parts which are just like lieder? Sure. But there's a whole bunch of other stuff too. All I know is when I put on an opera recording, there's plenty of it which is not enjoyable.
>>129053225YOU'RE FUCKING RETARDED YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU WANT.
>>129053225just make a playlist of the arias, man. besides Wagner and some other exceptions that resist this kind of structure, there's nothing wrong with starting with the popular arias.
>>129053230>>129053230I never said I hated operas wholesale, obviously there are some good parts for me. But there's enough I don't like which makes me inevitably turn it off at some point (some in the first movement!).>>129053232Not my style. At most I would try a highlights recording.
>>129053218I'm telling you what I said here >>129053018A few minutes of singing I can tolerate, it's even pleasant just for the sake of contrast (and not much else). It's when the entire music is just non-stop opera that it becomes unbearable.>Most 'opera fans' just listen to the aria excerpts.Do they, though? What I like about Mahler is the gigantic musical architecture. I don't listen to Mahler's excerpts, I listen to symphonies from start to finish, as it's meant to be listened and enjoyed.
>>129053230example,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfOPtSXPaIY&list=OLAK5uy_mDmzT1m2PV8qhwK4FYPxR9uI6Io_pB6K8&index=2does this sound kinda good? yeah. but it's way different than the singing parts in Mahler.
For today's opera performance, we listen to Mozart's Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) conducted by Solti.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOAPyZ8RFyY&list=OLAK5uy_l_HJ2y9aK4eTxYDQpP34juG3CdeDuyvz0&index=5>>129053230This part is very lieder-esque, and thus great, but again the entire opera isn't like this.
>>129053237then you'll never get into operas. years ago, when hadn't listened to much opera, i didn't get into Figaro because i just randomly put it on, but because i liked Voi che sapete already. if you're too constrained by habits to listen to the arias first, then maybe just change your habits?>>129053250>Do they, though?yes. bluntly speaking most operas that aren't Wagner don't contain such interdependent musical architecture that the recitatives are load-bearing to the same extent as sections of a symphony. of course you'll go back to favourite recordings and listen/watch the whole thing when it calls you, but more frequently you're going to listen to favourite arias more often than the entire work.
now playingstart of Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 6 in E Minorhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7VszLv9lgo&list=OLAK5uy_n9t5s66YpwzOtwahuxMNELq2Ou_K7QbuU&index=2start of Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 8 in D Minorhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rOuIi8pH7U&list=OLAK5uy_n9t5s66YpwzOtwahuxMNELq2Ou_K7QbuU&index=9Vaughan Williams: England, My Englandhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqTsGOT9xPo&list=OLAK5uy_n9t5s66YpwzOtwahuxMNELq2Ou_K7QbuU&index=12https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_n9t5s66YpwzOtwahuxMNELq2Ou_K7QbuU>This is another very welcome instalment in Martyn Brabbins’ Vaughan Williams symphony cycle. The performances are both authoritative and excellent. ---- John Quinn, MusicWeb
Why is he so goodhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXfkDLQT3q4
>>129053362https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_DJcBMERxk&list=OLAK5uy_nS8QBfnaN3qxknnIz_i62Ch1WoNeubI64&index=3yes :)chopin mastered composing for the piano
>>129053369Boring! Please listen to better performances:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KLU_P3rUm0
>>129044372Let's start by stating some facts:Mozart: Overrated and unsubtle, devoid of real feeling.Haydn: Mozart, but worse.Beethoven: IV IV IV DUM DUM DUM.Vivaldi: 500 terrible concertos that are all the same.Bach: Unfeeling, soulless, mathematical—robot music.Tchaikovsky: A gay lover boy who writes overly sentimental melodies that want you to think they’re good but actually aren’t.Mendelssohn: Melodies are all too fast and whimsical—they bewilder instead of affecting the soul.Debussy: Orchestral works are all trash; piano works are even worse. Couldn't write a melody to save his forehead.Liszt: A pianist pushed into becoming a mediocre show-off by his fans. His works consist of broken octaves in both hands and flashy scales to hide the fact that he is terrible and unimaginative— all effect, no substance. Can only steal melodies from Paganini.Chopin: Couldn't write for orchestra or anything but the piano. Abused his skill as a pianist to create works that are impressive at first but actually dull once the virtuosity wears off.Paganini: So terrible at form that all his works are either completely capricious and fantastical or basic theme-and-variations, which anybody can do.Who’s TiVo ich: Too edgy and depressed for anybody to like him. A heartthrob when young but ugly/average at any other time in his life. Makes theoryfags cream their pants for some reason.Schubert: A Beethoven copy with nothing original to say. MUH LIEDER.Telemann: Vivaldi and Bach, but worse.Rachmaninov: Piano concertos are just symphonies with big piano chords at every opportunity. All passion, no emotion or subtlety. Terrible and unlistenable.Stravinsky: Bad and a hack, but at least he tries to hide it.Schönberg: Bad and a hack.Cage: Bad and barely even tries to hide the fact that he’s a hack.Reich: Literally not even a composer.
>>129053521Thank you for the cliquespam.
now playingBrahms: Tragic Overture in D Minor, Op. 81www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy5CxkMrOgs&list=OLAK5uy_lB7Uf3ekl1Cno-RpE27p47TUdPs_AU03I&index=1start of Brahms: Symphony No. 1 in C Minor, Op. 68https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g41XxDoQQH8&list=OLAK5uy_lB7Uf3ekl1Cno-RpE27p47TUdPs_AU03I&index=2https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lB7Uf3ekl1Cno-RpE27p47TUdPs_AU03IThe first installment in a new Brahms cycle by Kirill Petrenko and the Berlin Philharmonic. Figured it's worth a try. Released this past November, so get it while it's hot.>This is a terrific account of the Brahms First Symphony. I enjoyed the way Petrenko plays it; for me, he doesn’t put a foot wrong. The playing is simply marvellous. Goodness knows how often this orchestra has played the work, yet there’s no hint of routine; the conductor and orchestra bring the music vividly to life. It’s great to hear such a staple of the repertoire played so magnificently by a world-class orchestra led by a conductor with whom they have an evident rapport. ---- John Quinn, MusicWeb>Is he as good as Furtwangler, Szell, Toscanini et al? Well no, they have a blazing, ferocious energy and attack that remain inimitable, but this is excellent, more modern Brahms. ---- theclassicsourceGotta love that BPO sound. Under K. Petrenko, it has gone back to that lush, chromium Karajanized sonority. Lovely. Pure pleasure for the ears. The weak link in their recordings is Petrenko's conducting itself. So let's see how he does here. The reviews seem quite promising.
>>129052391Correct.
>>129053362What is it that draws you to this HISS slop so much, over someone like Horowitz or any other pianist? I know hes a famous teacher, but for actual skills I don't see it being so far above that the HISS would ever be worth putting up with. >le verticalGive me a section to compare at least norseposter, what details are different?
>>129045428the autistic creed of the bachsperg
>>129048634Me on Boulez and his compositions (direction quotation):>Man this guy is a fucking awful hack, only Webern and Cage have him beat. Any opinions he has about anyone else's music are utterly void of value when this is what he produces himself.
>>129053521>no Wagner Wagnerbros, we won
the next Beethoven piano sonatas cycle we will try is... HJ Lim's. The order of the set is custom and not chronological, so as always, we listen to and post whatever is the performer's intent.No. 29 in B-Flat Major, Op. 106 "Hammerklavier"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3xTaoAyf_A&list=OLAK5uy_n4A0CR8JxZd5-sdnW8p1fCLTGiGQpLq2M&index=2No. 11 in B-Flat Major, Op. 22:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XvaEB2PSU0&list=OLAK5uy_n4A0CR8JxZd5-sdnW8p1fCLTGiGQpLq2M&index=6No. 4 in E-Flat Major, Op. 7https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCjxsoqAEVg&list=OLAK5uy_n4A0CR8JxZd5-sdnW8p1fCLTGiGQpLq2M&index=12excerpt from a community review,>HJ Lim at 24 years-old, proved that she is a deep thinker, and brings not only nearly miraculous techniques but also well-thought-out musical understanding and more importantly, she brings unique feelings and interpretative abilities in her performances.>She inspired me, bringing out Beethoven's passion, tenderness, stormy, dynamic musical forces. I felt the presence of Beethoven's soul. I was jolted, shaken, and inspired. HJ Lim magically connected Beethoven's musical soul to mine, as an excellent pianist would.
>>129053830more from the same insightful review,>Listening to Arrau's [cycle], it feels like sailing across smooth sea, enjoying pleasant seascapes. HJ Lim's [cycle], crackles fire and stormy passions as well as calm pastoral pastures.>I do not agree with opinions of some, that insists on performing music with a preconceived notion of experts, such as musicologists and historians. They seem to believe, there is only one way to interpret music according to historical context. Some also insists on going by the period of music written, or emphasizing the composer's style and idiosyncrasies. That leaves not much room for individual artists, pianists to contribute their personal musical feelings and inspirations.>I remember reading an article on Ravel and Toscanini. Toscanini conducted Ravel's Bolero. Ravel was on hand at rehearsal. He told Toscanini, Bolero should be played in a slower tempo. Toscanini dismissed Ravel and said, "Young man, you don't know your own music." I know why Toscanini preferred a faster tempo. In Bolero, the same theme is over and over again repeated on different instruments. Toscanini may have felt, slower tempo would make the music ponderous, given the repetitive presentation of the same melody.>The point I am trying to make, is not the incident itself. I believe, composers' intentions deserve respect. But, composers may not understand what they wrote comprehensively. There may be more musical dimensions to explore, with fresh insight. Performers bring their own feelings and perform according to their inspirations. That is the beauty of compositions and interpretations by different artists, composers and performers. To insist on preconceived notions and fixations of period and writers of music, do not serve audiences. Composers and writes both collaborate with each other and must allow fresh musical infusion of individual artists' inspirations in performances. Otherwise, the emperor would be naked or wear the same costumes always.
>>129053830>female performer Not listening!
>>129053848sigh, your loss. I can only hope you'll change your mind, or at least make an exception this time. The Hammerklavier sounds marvelous so far -- though I am a bit anxious to hear the Adagio, as it totals to a brisk 12:51! I usually like mind a lot slower than that. We'll see if it works.
>>129053844Aside from that closing sentence which I don't really think makes their point (plenty of other things they could and should have said in conclusion), this is very well said on the creative license and aesthetic responsibility of the performer.
>>129053637>for actual skills I don't see it being so far aboveIt is so far above that other pianists are basically pop-slop. Horowitz is an exception actually, since he's of the old tradition and plays with a free, singing tone.>Give me a section to compare at least norseposter, what details are different?Just pick any modern recording and compare it to Hofmann, Cortot, Koczalski, students of some of the greatest 19th century pianists. Koczalski specifically, studied with Mikuli, who was Chopin's favorite pupil. This is how he plays Chopin 9/2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW-VRsOeIwMVs Lisieckihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoeRkBZ52LwNotice the subtle differences in voicing, in articulation, for example at 0:06 Koczalski delays a note (he does it before too but it's easier to notice here, and constantly keeps delaying the right hand, deliberately), then the trill right after that is so expressive, compared to Lisiecki who plays the exact same way as everyone else, right on beat, like midi. Then at 0:21 as the melody ascends, Koczalski makes a diminuendo, clearly imitating singing(from chest to head voice), whereas Lisiecki rarely, if ever does that. In fact nowdays they play cresendo.If you don't trust Chopin's own pupils, then here is Rachmaninoff playing it in exactly the same tradition, here's a comparison I made earlier of Trifonov/Seguin (modern interpreters) vs Rachmaninoff(19th century tradition)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0GaOpJl6dM&list=OLAK5uy_k_mhGHGL70PYnbn1DPuGbY_DQV0qpQAyc&index=1Trifonov plays with brute force, monotonically, 1:50 of 1st mov. Orchestra likewise plays inauthentically, see:https://youtu.be/2QRIrdiVS08?feature=shared&t=122The smooth melody in strings, the slide from G to CThere is so much more detail that I can't fit in one post, some play metronomically, with chords(vertically), others plays freely, with polyphony, imitating bel canto singing. These explain it well:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osdiIVaqg_M
>>129053892based
>>129053637>>1290538922/2Koczalski also adds embellishments, Hofmann sometimes does it too. They weren't just pianists, they were great improvisers and understood both performance and music better than modern musicians.And the biggest blackpill for me was Hofmann's rendition of the 4th ballade, where he brings out inner melodies I never knew were there:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqPN4gXy834It sounds more polyphonic than what you usually hear. I went on to search for such a high quality interpretation, I couldn't find any. Horowitz is close. Katsaris is known for bringing out inner lines but even he missed quite a few. I could go on and timestamp each one, but for an example, just listen to 02:38 - 02:46 and 07:40 - just beautiful.Here is the full recital with perhaps the best Waldstein ever recorded:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lH6H4ksPnc
now playingstart of Haydn: String Quartet in G Major, Op. 76 No. 1, Hob. III:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgfBl59KlGI&list=OLAK5uy_ktXbjAI_a5gJes6insG1lJjGjkiwa_u50&index=2start of Haydn: String Quartet in D Minor, Op. 76 No. 2, Hob. III: 76, "Quinten"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbLUZC5QYgE&list=OLAK5uy_ktXbjAI_a5gJes6insG1lJjGjkiwa_u50&index=6start of Haydn: String Quartet in C Major, Op. 76 No. 3, Hob. III: 77, "Kaiser"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjHf45IHMGs&list=OLAK5uy_ktXbjAI_a5gJes6insG1lJjGjkiwa_u50&index=9https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ktXbjAI_a5gJes6insG1lJjGjkiwa_u50>This release is the second volume by the Doric String Quartet in the sequence dedicated to Haydns String Quartets. Franz Joseph Haydns (1732-1809) Op. 76, featured here, was the last full set of string quartets that he composed. Published in 1799, they were commissioned by Count Joseph Erdody. The Doric String Quartet is known for their sensitivity in slow movements in particular. Gramophone wrote of Vol. 1, Allied to precision in articulation is a flexibility in the scansion and shaping of phrases, of notes timed through a remarkable understanding of rubato, of a range of expressive resilience that gives even the smalles of episodes in a long line their own characterand this is Vol 1. Hold your breath for the rest.
>>129053950Also that coda is DIABOLICAL. Hofmann was truly the GOAT. Tempo is another thing the older tradition gets right. They play faster, even if at the cost of mistakes here and there.
How's Levine's Wagner?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgHey333zyI&list=OLAK5uy_kzSmwn1uwTwFuoE5Jnb3ckAMaY1FTLJnU&index=2
Casals conducting Beethoven & Schuberthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5isMvrW0MFascinating.
Annie Fischer's Beethoven, yay or nay?
>>129054293yay. She's pretty good. I should listen to more of her Beethoven.
>>1290542939.5-10/10 set
>>129053892>>129053950>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osdiIVaqg_MI had a feeling most of your obsession stemmed from this video after you linked it to me that one time.I appreciate the write up, now at least I understand what your issues are, and what you want or are being picky about; essentially you are interested in the ornate and embellishment of delayed notes (notes inégales, swing, rubato etc - whatever you wish to call it.). Personally I'm surprised you aren't more into baroque with this kind of attitude, since half beat delays and such are very common there in the french keyboard tradition, and improvisational playing is their shtick. However, they are not of the same sentimentality that you usually enjoy, plus harpsicord is a meme. Fair.Personally I would still take proper recording quality over some slight note delays that really affect the composition in no meaningful manner, but I suppose that this is just composition vs performer lens. Maybe tomorrow or later on I will check out your twitter podcast video on delayed note playing, but probably not.>best Waldstein ever recorded:You are totally out to lunch on this, I mean how can you even enjoy this when the recording is literally having random dynamics to it? Cutting things quieter or louder without reason. It absolutely ruins it. Its not even something just irritating like HISS, but you are fundamentally changing the feeling of the rhythms like that.Anyways, its too fast, Brautigam does the same and it sounds worse for it. Pretty sure there are many mistakes here too, and some of his delays clash hard with the actual feeling of the piece. What is wrong with his rhythms? Sounds like he can't even keep in time. Although sometimes I can't tell because the dynamics are all so fucking over the place with this shit recording. This isn't better than giLELs, and certainly there is a zero percent chance this is magically so much better than giLELs that its worth putting up with this RNG recording.
>>129044372Celebrity Series of Boston has been rebranded as Vivo Performing Arts. They could not have chosen a more generic name if they tried. Probably spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on that. https://issuu.com/celebrityseries.org/docs/vivo_rebrand_brochure_2026
>>129054562I had obsession with Hofmann way before I saw that video, which just reaffirmed my stance.>you aren't more into baroque with this kind of attitudeIt's not different. The attitude was the same even in classical era, we know that from Mozart. Playing hands seperately, with rubato, has always been essential.>over some slight note delaysIt's not just delayed notes, it's proper legato phrasing, pedalling, dynamics (see Rachmaninoff's recording of Chopin sonata no.2, finale, no one comes even close), voicing, contrast and color, tempo etc etc. Everything old school does is far superior to what the new school does.>Sir András Schiff: "If I compare today's pianists with Cortot, Josef Hofmann, Ignaz Friedman or Schnabel, they are far, far away. Although all of these people, perhaps with the exception of Josef Hofmann, would not win a competition today. They would not even let Alfred Cortot in the first round, but that says more about competitions than about Cortot.">when the recording is literally having random dynamics to it?These aren't random, but obviously deliberate, giving the piece more color and depth. There's no other great recording of the piece, certainly a lot of mediocrity.
>>129054730>These aren't randomMy brother in Finland, the recording is literally (literally) cutting volume in and out randomly as it struggles to pick up his sound. Unless you mean to say the major theme of the piece is meant to randomly jump dynamics constantly in the middle of the repetitive left hand, in which case Hofman is the worst hack on planet earth and possibly the worst recorded pianist of all time. However, he is not (although I think this playing was not very good quality regardless), the recording is what is the issue. Your total disregard for the recording quality honestly just makes me think you are ideologically stuck in "old good new bad", because as I said: this isn't just HISS, missing frequencies, shrill notes, or muddy low end, its a fundamental altering of the piece's dynamics. >It's not different. Incorrect; the harpsicord is a meme, but because of the lack of dynamics it really does have a tenancy to push people into loads of swing and ornamental trills, much more commonly than in other eras. Most recordings of classical and romantic era are played very, very similarly, yet Baroque players all add their own random trills and ornaments wherever they want, at least the harpsichordists do. I assume this is the main reason they chose it over the piano.
>>129054915>My brother in FinlandWhat?>in which case Hofman is the worst hack on planet earth and possibly the worst recorded pianist of all time.Mind-bogglingly imbecilic.>harpsicordNo one was talking about the harpsichord.
>>129053995good overallsome bad singers but no nearly as many as other modern sets. Behrens is a great Brunnhilde for the most part (save for the very end unfortunately) and Levine has a really good handling of Wagnerian texture and tempo in the climaxes. unfortunately outside of the climaxes he has a tendency to be too slow for no reason (why the hell is the entrance of the Giants in Rheingold so slow)as far as modern studio stereo sets go, you could do much worse
I regret to inform you that Lohengrin is going to turn me into a raving Wagner fanatic
>>129048634I mean this is basically how every composer talks about 90% of other composers. Really when we pop off in these threads were just imitating the greats
I am in a world, where I am taking a stroll in a beautiful park built by the divine, suddenly my legs feel tired and request to stop. Cordially I went on ahead to sit under the shade of a chestnut tree. My fatigue washes away from me as I slip into my imaginative daydreaming, I can hear the melancholic chirping of the sparrows and the water flowing from the creeks, feel the gust of a chilly wind approaching my face, smell the rejuvenating fragrance of the good earth. But then I realize I was just listening to the start of Lohengrin. I a poor soul, venerate the gods for creating such beauty and allowing an inferior soul like me to experience it!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG53S27HI5k
>>129055130That's how he gets you!
>>129054958Ebin, simply ebin.
An open minded classical historian only exists if they are medically trepanated. Elitism is the natural conclusion of music history and criticism.
>>129055462Correct. And that is why we neither respect Opera, nor Wagner here.
Wagner.
Wagner? More like CHADner?
>>129056054was gay and died of AIDS.
>>129056054We love that guy around here
W.
>>129056112This, but in regards to the complete opposite.
>>129046465There seems to be a misconception that Wagner was a "bad person" in his life, where nothing could be further from the truth. He was a vegetarian after all, and developed morality philosophically to the extent little do.>Only the love that springs from pity, and carries its compassion to the utmost breaking of self-will, is the redeeming Christian Love, in which Faith and Hope are both included of a—Faith as the unwavering consciousness of that moral meaning of the world, confirmed by the most divine exemplar; Hope as the blessed sense of the impossibility of any cheating of this consciousness.>AFTER recognising the necessity of a regeneration of the human race, if we follow up the possibilities of its ennoblement we light on little else than obstacles. In our attempt to explain its downfall by a physical perversion we had the support of the noblest sages of all time, who believed they found the cause of degeneration in the substituting of animal for vegetable food; thus we necessarily were led to the assumption of a change in the fundamental substance of our body, and to a corrupted blood we traced the depravation of temperaments and of moral qualities proceeding from them..... We cannot withhold our acknowledgment that the human family consists of irremediably disparate races, whereof the noblest well might rule the more ignoble, yet never raise them to their level by commixture, but simply sin to theirs. Indeed this one relation might suffice to explain our fall; even its cheerlessness should not blind us to it: if it is reasonable to assume that the dissolution of our earthly globe is purely a question of time, we probably shall have to accustom ourselves to the idea of the human species dying out. On the other hand there is such a matter as life beyond all time and space, and the question whether the world has a moral meaning we here will try to answer by asking ourselves if we mean to go to ground as beasts or gods.
>>129056139>He was a vegetarianHEIL.
Wagner raped the world.
i am the only real wagnersister in this thread
Brahms gave Wagner AIDS after he sodomized him thoroughly.
why are you idiots always trying so hard to be funny and quirky
>>129046385Nice and bonus points for being Hungarian, but I think this would be regarded as popslop here and not classical.>>129047689Satie definitely.>>129047791And I think most of that would be just the Vexations played 840 times, which he meant as a joke.
Gotta love Hurwitz. KEKhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WsdUH6ecqs
>>129056865>eceleb midwitzNot watching!
Is Wagner the first (and only) good opera composer? Like, he just makes it work.
>>129056899That would be Verdi. Fagner only wrote meandering OST schlock
>>129056910Translate to non-reddit speak?
>[Wagner] invariably chooses, unnecessarily, the untrodden path, attempting to fly where a rational person would walk with better results.
>>129056928>Translate to non-reddit speak?TOP KEK FAGNER TRANNIES BE SEETHING LEL, WHAT DID HE MEAN BY THIS? BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASED AND VERDIPILLED. IS COFFEE GOOD FOR ME?!?!? CRINGE BASED CRINGE
>can't decide if I should listen to Mahler 3 or Bruckner 8Mmmm, maybe let's try Karajan's Bruckner for now. His adagios are something else, especially the 7th's, but currently I can't get 01:30 section out of my headhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPfRwzOPTbsHow can a man compose something so magnificent? Who needs anything else, when we have Mahler and Bruckner
>>129056948Thanks for the gay blogpost you pissdtinking mongoloid.
>>129056964Whoops meant to reply to >>129056865
>>129056929>Towards the end of his long and successful life, Verdi could afford to admit to Felix Philippi: ‘The work which always arouses my greatest admiration is Tristan. This gigantic structure fills me time and time again with astonishment and awe, and I still cannot quite comprehend that it was conceived and written by a human being. I consider the second act, in its wealth of musical invention, its tenderness and sensuality of musical expression and inspired orchestration, to be one of the finest creations that has ever issued from a human mind.
>>129056968Even Hurljizz is more intersting than you posting about your gay life.
>>129056978He had Alzheimer's and dementia at that point, which is the only state in which Wagner could be appreciated.
>>129056998Heard he sometimes ate his own poop while listening to Fagner's awful muzak. The absolute state of Wagnerfags.
>>129056980Thank you eceleb lover.
>>129057009We would prefer you keep the cliquery to >>>/metal/
>>129056899Figaro
brahms
webern
opus 29
I'm going to have a chance to play a pipe organ in a cathedral, what should I play?
>>129057488Wagner
>>129057488Franck
>>129057488Play some Burzum but disguise it at Bach
>>129057488Durufle's Alain fugue. https://youtu.be/FJpG1Qyv6e8?t=395
Quick round of late Scriabin sonatas.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO9WtS9y8Io&list=PL76wKgafiz0E-yeonj4MOcxMDaIW0wM_j&index=14
>>129054647It does sound more modern
>>129055130>>129055306Which recording do you guys recommend?>pic: how I dress
It will never cease to impress me just how particular opera fans are about recordings, and I mean that sincerely, I always appreciate those who know what they like and can articulate why they don't>The real problem w/ Wagner is finding a tenor who can sing Siegfried/Siegmund/Lohengrin et alwith Beauty. Wagner adored Bellini and such, and I see no meaning in this desire for grainy, strained tenor vocalism foisted on us by Melchior, Windgassen and the rest. If only Bjoerling had recorded Lohengrin the way he had planned! (sigh) I mean, Vickers had such an ugly, forcced sound! Poor Birgit! She must have been so happy to sing w/ King in the live Walkure! King has a beautiful,lyric tenor sound. I love listening to his lines...his voice creates this sound-image of idealized, masculine perfection, both spiritual and physical. You can 'see' the gleaming silver of his character's armour in the sound of his voice.Listening to Windgassen in Solti's Gotterdammerung makes me cringe. If only Solti had used King! Unfortunately, the women in this recording are baaaad. Buy this set to hear a truly beautiful, on- pitch, unforced, tenor-wth-a-ping, lyrical reading of this fairy tale knight. If only we could splice the different singers from the various sets to create one great set! It doesn't exist.>King was the greatest Wagner tenor of the second half of the 20th century, and under-rated. Honor him.PS--the singing in the new Met Ring 2011 is overall, umm, well, shall we say, underwhelming. Not a real Siegfried/Brunhilde in sight. Voight? Really?Maybe someday I'll be on this level.
>>129055043thanks
>>129058082wutMelchior, Windgassen, and Vickers all have very pleasant voices to listen to, and "strained" is the last thing you could say about Melchior. Guy barely broke a sweat singing Siegfried.
>>129058131Beats me. All I can say is this is why we have a variety of performances and performers to suit every taste.
>>129057488Reger - Op 135bhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYsqBDoIkW4it's a shame that Reger only lived to the age of 43. imo he was Bach's only worthy successor.
now playinghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnLbTqZ2jAc
The opening of Puccini's Madama Butterfly is insane.
For tonight's opera performance, we listen to Verdi's Il Trovatore conducted by Sir Colin Davis.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcpOzy5SkAI&list=OLAK5uy_kPq70SXmKQRjpRx9KbUEA6669nMQAYCi4&index=2
I watched Amadeus 2 weeks ago and have been on a classical music sprint for a while. One thing I noticed is that I like almost all of the music especially if I am wagecuckingI like Dmitri so farhttps://youtu.be/mmCnQDUSO4Iand funnily the babby music from Brahmshttps://youtu.be/pREtP6YRMR8
>>129058444>and funnily the babby music from BrahmslolYou should listen to it in its proper form as part of his second symphony.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR3T2sfV5QQI think he used it or something similar in a couple other pieces, I forget, but this is the original, primary source.
>>129058444Very blessed phase. Start learning german and italian if you dont know them lol
I'm gonna be repeating "the babby music from Brahms" in my head the rest of the night. The anti-Brahms brigade is gonna have a field day with it.
>>129058444Did you want recs or were you just sharing?
>>129058486>>129058466>>129058460Yeah I would love recs. I am going through the sticky now. Before watching Amadeus I was a legendary fan of Uematso so would like something heart breaking like Aeriths theme
>>129058444kill yourself.
>>129058508never post here again.
>>129058444>>129058508my usual copypasta:Try Beethoven's 3rd and 7th and then 9th symphonies. Mozart 39, 40, 41. Tchaikovsky 4 and 6. Dvorak 8 and 9. Schumann's and Brahms' symphonies, Haydn's Paris Symphonies, Bruckner's 5th and 7th and 8th, Mendelssohn's 3rd, 4th, and 5th.Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto no. 1. Beethoven piano concerto 4 and 5. Mozart piano concertos 19 through 27. Bach's Keyboard Concertos (I prefer the versions with piano, look up the ones performed by Schiff). Schumann's Piano Concerto. Rachmaninoff's other piano concertos (1, 3, 4).Beethoven and Brahms' and Tchaikovsky's and Dvorak's and Mendelssohn's violin concerto. Bach's violin concertos and double concerto.Beethoven's violin sonata 7, 8, 9, and 10. Bach's violin sonatas and partitas (1, 2, and 3 for both). Mozart's violin sonatas. Brahms' violin sonatas.Dvorak's cello concerto. Schumann's. Haydns'. Beethoven's cello sonata 3 and 4. Brahms' cello sonatas. Bach's cello suites. Prokofiev cello sonata. Mendelssohn cello sonata 2.Beethoven's piano sonatas, all of the ones that have a named title (eg Pathetique, Waldstein, Moonlight, Les Adiuex, Tempest). some Mozart piano sonatas. Bach's Well Tempered Clavier, both books. Schubert's piano sonatas D.960 and 959 and 958(?). Prokofiev piano sonata 6. Chopin Ballades and Etudes 10 and 25.Beethoven's string quartets 12-16, then 1-11. Mozart's 'Haydn' string quartets and string quintets. Brahms' string quintets. Dvorak's string quartet 12. Mendelssohn string quartet 6.Bach's cantatas, 51 and 140.Try a couple from each and keep exploring whichever form you like the most at that moment. Feel free to come back and ask whenever you can't decide and/or need help deciding on recordings (the recording, as in the interpretation and performance, matters a ton, as it can change the sound, power, and emotions of the music dramatically). Come back when you've listened to it all. Enjoy!
>>129058509??
>>129058508>I was a legendary fan of Uematso so would like something heart breaking like Aeriths themeI don't know what any of that is and won't be responding to it.oh and if you like Shostakovich already, then check out his 5th Symphony.
>>129058520fuck off.
>>129058516I should amend this to suggest Bruckner's 4th symphony. God only knows why I would suggest the 5th to newcomers but w/e
>>129058408Italian operas are basically musicals, huh?
>>129058082>Melchior>strained tenor vocalismNo tenor with a voice as powerful as Melchior's is strained.
>>129058548oddly, his 5th was the only one i loved on first listen
Listen to Franz Schrekerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVkBdGRUBJU&list=OLAK5uy_nPX73laCek959xBNqEBHDKH3unyh3qiGs&index=1
>>129058530why so angry. what did i do
>>129058716Don't mind them, they're just hazing.
>>129058590and Wagner operas are marvel cape shit but the dialogue is all sung in German.
>>129058842I'm talking about form. I suppose my point is more there's no reason to listen to Italian opera isolated from the visual performance and libretto, whereas with German opera (and I'm sure some others), the music holds up on its own.Listening to that Verdi recording is like listening to a radio drama in a foreign language lol.
Upon reconsideration, this recording is in fact superb, and ranks among the greatest Goldberg Variations.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3kK8w3kEQU&list=OLAK5uy_k2er6VZFwCAEa1zJPHWVY5vYAG8-TEM5w&index=14
Strausshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmFNSc3n9Dk&list=OLAK5uy_k_XWEHhrjWxsyEh9xKifBgZ4z1j-wRRtA&index=1
>>129058613yeah I have no clue what that guy is talking about
>>129058460>babby music from Brahms>proper form as part of his second symphony>this is the original, primary sourceWhat are you even talking about. Look at the dates.
>>129058859The point of most Italian opera is the beautiful singing and vocal melodies. You can listen to it without knowing the lyrics or watching a performance. I'm pretty sure most opera fans are just fans of Italian opera singing.
>>129059253yeah I shouldn't have used the word original but it is the most fleshed out version of it
>>129059260Hmm. Fine, I'll try another one.
>>129058700But I already do!https://youtu.be/Y45q9r7T6PA
>>129059278Go to Bellini or Rossini if you want the classic bel canto melodies, not Verdi.
>>129059296I will, thank you.>BelliniI thought that was the sculptor...? ;o
Handelhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMucwNlfYog&list=OLAK5uy_k6OXLIADuUxuQwAhHcwdVKMI9JAfc6Ai8&index=33
>>129058082My personal problem with trying to evaluate singers is I always defer to their success and position, meaning when I hear one I don't particularly care for, my response is "well, they were good enough for X conductor/Y production company to hire, so maybe the problem is with me, and I should give them another chance until it clicks". Who am I to argue with Karajan, Solti, Barenboim, Sinopoli, Levine, or Kubelik about which performer is good?
>>129059575https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HapyOVnpy_I&list=OLAK5uy_k6OXLIADuUxuQwAhHcwdVKMI9JAfc6Ai8&index=12Holy shit. This is what they play in Heaven as you enter for the first time.
>>129059298>I thought that was the sculptor...? ;oNo, you're confusing the Renaissance painter Bellini with the Baroque sculptor Bernini with the composer Bellini :3
>>129059575>>129059727I don't get it, is this conducted by Beecham or Griffith?
>>129059727Then I hope I never enter h*aven.
>>129060326fortunately for you, you aren't white.
>>129060362>muh hwyteWhatever makes you sleep at night, mutt.
>>129060370enjoy Hell.
>>129060390Hell is the only place for high T, high IQ Europeans. Mutts go to Jesóysus gay orgy.
>>129060409those flames just got hotter.
>>129060418Based. I like it hot. Hope they play real music (Scriabin) there, or I'm fucking off from there as well.
>>129060211I think it's a Goosens+Beechum modified score. So it's Messiah by Handel-Goosens-Beechum conducted by Griffith.
>>129060168thanks :D
>>129059602>I always defer to their success and position>Who am I to argueBased normalslave cattle.
>>129060671It's a flaw of mine, I admit, though it has its upside -- you'll never, ever see me make one of those stupid "I don't understand [acclaimed X] -- is it actually fraudulent and everyone is pretending???" type posts.
>>129060671He's right tho. We are not experienced listeners, singers or conductors. What we like on surface might be just the tip of the iceberg of what we can truly enjoy and appreciate, given enough effort. We don't hear like the great composers did, it's only reasonable to assume that conductors and experienced musicians alike hear more nuance than us too. Normalcattle slave think the opposite, they appeal to their primal urges, which leads them to listen to pop music.
Medtner concerto from some literally who pianist, so far both the pianist and orchestra managed to utterly ruin the beginning opener of the first, which credit due, is a heroic task for the greatest opener of all time (listen to Tozer). Feeling pretty fucking lifeless, might not even make it the next concerto at this rate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxP8yX7iBpU&list=PL4D14bmfCxVUk3qXKEfCgtZU_Ph3PhwVO>>129060688We prefer those posts here, nothing is scared and we assume everyone is under the spell of hysterics, conventionality, and submitting to other authority. Until proven (by ourselves) otherwise. >>129060745You are a complete fool. If you have not the mind and ear to discern good from the opposite, then how can you have the ability to discern good opinion from the opposite? Is it not that you can find all manners of opinions from conductors and composers, which often contradict each other? Have you never been knowledgeable about anything and found your own opinions contradict with the others who you felt had the knowledge, but lacked the correct ideas?The normalcattle defers to whatever his masters tell him to think, which is currently pop music, and should he be told to listen to classical he would listen to whatever he was told to for there, probably Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. Yet he could and would never understand why he listens to them, only that they were the "best", because others told him they were the best. If you are fine with such a life, then you would also be fine listening to pop music if you were told so, since you think nothing for yourself, just manipulated putty for another sculptor.
Nevermind, I couldn't even make it through the second movement of Scherbakov's valiant attempt to ruin Medtner's first piano concerto. Putting on Alexeev instead.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTfBwHpYX4&list=OLAK5uy_mwgPaMdSvKrzR3eYEURCQmJeyRrl5fj7ANow that is how you ought to open Medtner's first. Have to put your back into it!
>>129060783>then how can you have the ability to discern good opinion from the opposite?All I'm saying, is that the ability to discern better among the highest quality is harder than you're giving it credit for. When two conductors disagree, it's not (usually) because one is wrong and the other is right, but because of their subjective aesthetic preferences. Both are still better informed than an average listener, and they hear the music differently. It's okay to dislike something upon first hearing it, only to undersand it after giving it more chance. If it's truly bad, you'll know after thouroughly listening and giving it more listens than required (which varies from person to person).
>>129060783>>129060783>>129060839don't you dare insult Scherbakov again, his Shostakovich Op. 87 is one of the best couple
>>129060848>it's not (usually) because one is wrong and the other is right, but because of their subjective aesthetic preferencesIf you had no ability to discern their capacity for right or wrong, then how could you know if they are indeed usually or not usually wrong or right? You have supplanted your own judgement for authority, replaced thought and knowledge with deference and slavery. We would prefer if you learned to learn; instead of doing what you are told, thinking what you are told, and being what you are told. >>129060860Anyone who butchers Medtner's op. 33 like that will be insulted as he deserves.
>>129060883>then how could you know if they are indeed usually or not usually wrong or right?Experience.
>>129060905I hope for your sake you mean yours, and not theirs.
>>129060908Of course, I meant mine
>>129060974We love that here.
>>129058842Correct.
>>129060982samefag
>>129060992>in my mind, it was realFagner was gay and died of AIDS.
>>129060999Checked. Correct.
>>129061150Your loss. >>>/tv/
>>129061180We're all incels or homosexuals here.
>>129061201Yeah, he said high IQ chads for a reason. We don't tolerate women here.
Somepony bake
the vagner meme
The Hammerklavier is of course incredible but it's not good for anytime listening
I don't understand how not all modern musicians, pianists especially, are massively prolific. How long does it take to learn a piece, flesh out your interpretation, then record it (the easy part) anyhow? Look at Stephen Hough and Steven Osbourne and Angela Hewitt and Andras Schiff, they're recorded almost everything under the sun. How hard can it be? Even if you crank out a new recording every, oh, 6 months, you'd have the entire standard repertoire by the midpoint of your career. Yet most of these modern pianists only have like 10 recordings covering 20-30 opuses total, it's bizarre. Do they really spend that much time focusing on live performances? Is that it? That's what they spend most of their time doing?
>>129059602While people like agonise over Furtwängler's politics, Karajan is so well-known for being a striver that even in our Nazi-obsessed age, no one really questions the fact that he was a Nazi because it's so obvious he only joined the party out of careerism. While he has his good recordings, it's not unreasonable nor due to some mistaken belief in his fraudulence that the majority of listeners come to the conclusion that one has to be selective with especially these celebrity performers. Conductors with relatively few bad recordings, like Monteux or Munch, are also well-known, but they are not so famous as Karajan or Bernstein. If you judge it reasonable to accept as a truism that renown does not come without some just cause, it is just as reasonable to accept the commonplace that fame is a cause in itself to many people, even at the expense of better work or in this case, a less diffuse discography. Karajan specifically is better in more modern or late Romantic composers, but through his tireless recording and self-promotion, projected himself as first choice in the Viennese classics. But his regular, smoothed-over style is unsympathetic to composers like Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven with their emphasis on drama. This judgement on Karajan's particular capabilities, which you have no doubt heard before, is so commonplace among listeners that it cannot be dismissed as a superficial dismissal of his abilities by the same logic that defers to fame. This in itself makes the point that there is really no substitute for deferring not to fame nor to received wisdom but to your own judgement.
>>129061413re your second paragraph: except those flaws are well-known to everyone. They're already built-in caveats.To relate this to the original post, this is not so much like saying "oh X singer sucks, why does he/she get hired all the time?" and more like "X singer is no good in Y repertoire" which is fair more understandable.
>my favourite pianists? fischer, ney, backhaus, gieseking, kempff, you know, the classicsWhat type of person do you imagine?
>>129060783>We prefer those posts here, nothing is scared and we assume everyone is under the spell of hysterics, conventionality, and submitting to other authority. Until proven (by ourselves) otherwise.There's nothing wrong with criticism of course, but like I've said on many occasions, I detest uncharitability, which "because I don't like or get X, that must mean no one genuinely likes or gets X, and they're all pretending and it's actually fraudulent" most certainly falls under. There's no mass psychosis, there's no mass deception, there's no mass affectation. If something is highly acclaimed and popular, people genuinely like it for genuine reasons.I guess what I'm saying is it's the difference between something like "Schubert isn't as good as everyone claims" and "are you supposed classical fans are faking it because you're pretentious"But again, I admitted it's a flaw of mine, the deference, the supreme, blank check benefit-of-the-doubt. When I hear an acclaimed recording I don't like, my first response is almost always, "oh I just didn't get it, I'll try it again later" instead of "wow people were wrong, that sucked". So yes, sometimes things do just suck. But I think we should be careful about those kinds of judgments is all, and even when we do, try to maybe soften it with reservations like "it's bad for me, for my personal criteria".
>>129061489a beta but nice nerd
new>>129061513>>129061513>>129061513
>>129061390too much time browsing 4chan.
>>129046465This was written by a redditor btw and it's not even true.
>>129052925>This. 100%.Samefag.Anyway, this isn't really an argument.A speech-like singing form already exists. It's called a recitative. And it's part of (older) operas. Always has been.Like I said, there's no such thing as "natural" singing. All singing is stylized, learned and coded. Folk styles included. There is no biological baseline that exists.You dislike opera because you don't understand the style and your ear isn't acclimatized to it. That's fine, but stop pretending it's a universal or objective fact.
>>129052930"Culturally normal" is more vague nonsense that just means dominant at the moment, not neutral, superior or more expressive. Opera was culturally normal for centuries in large parts of Europe. Pop styles are culturally normal now because of mass media, not because they're closer to some human default.You're also smuggling in a very crude definition of "expression". Listing surface effects doesn't prove greater expressivity; it just proves stylistic variety within a narrow expressive bandwidth. Many of those effects exist exactly because the singing itself is technically weak and needs coloration.Operatic technique doesn't "reduce expression" it reallocates it. Expression in opera happens through pitch control, sustained line, harmonic tension, timbral shading within a stable tone, diction, dynamic architecture over long spans and interaction with orchestral harmony. You're mistaking restraint and discipline for absence. You're a retarded dilettante.Saying operatic singing is just "volume tricks" is like saying counterpoint is just "playing more notes". It's a personal failure to perceive structure. Opera singers avoid breathiness and random distortion for the same reason violinists avoid buzzing strings = because it limits control, intonation and endurance.And no, randomly sampling pop singers does not give you "more technique", it gives you less standardization. Opera sounds consistent because it’s a codified high technique. Pop sounds diverse because there is no baseline and almost no technical floor."Objectively less expressive" is just a baseless assertion. Opera has conveyed grief, eroticism, irony, rage, tenderness, hysteria, transcendence, despair, etc., for 400 years without microphones. If you can't hear that, that's a limitation of your ear, not of the art form. You're a retarded dilettante faggot who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Consider killing yourself.
