Wow I mangled the everloving shit out of that crop. Glad to see we're hitting bump limit rather than the 7-day autosage more often though.

>>93231798
I read them.

>>93231668

>To CREATE Demigods?
It's because of the BovD hivemind rules. Depending on how many creatures are part of a hivemind, the hivemind itself get a flat intelligence and charisma score. For each point of intelligence bonus, every creaure in the hivemind gets an extra skillpoint PER HD and an extra FEAT. for every point of charisma over 18(not bonus) the hivemind can cast through any member as if it were a sorcerer of a level equal to (charisma - 18).
Dark speech allows you to create hiveminds.
The problem is that the original version was balanced. Only hiveminds of 100 creatures(total, not at a time) of 1 HD each(AKA they're pushovers) can be made using the feat, and that made hiveminds with an INT and CHA of 7(no bonus feats, skills, or spellcasting). The hivemind rules were for DMs.
Unfortunately, nobody actually read the rules and just complained about how OP dark speech was. So they updated the Feat, but not the hivemind rules, in elder evils. For some fucking reason, the elder evils version removes the creature cap and HD cap, now they only have an INT cap of 2(AKA all animals and vermin, plus some aberrations and constructs). So now you can make armies of demigods.

>>93231798
It doesn't help when the previous thread question was 3 posts down.
It still started a conversation, anons just quickly went off on a tangent.

>>93231831
>>93231809
Alright, I'll keep it in then. I feel like I often struggle to have something interesting in mind when the OP needs to get remade but that's a personal problem.

>>93231825
>For some fucking reason
I am actually impressed. I've never seen WotC fail so hard to balance something they make it that overpowered. Normally they nerf shit into the ground for no reason(like Legacy items).

>>93231842
If it help, the thread did steer back onto topic at the end when people were talking about using fiend of possession legacy champions to get +14 worth of free enhancement bonus on any item, including already enhanced items.
And making magic item the have their own class levels, fiends non-withstanding.
And staves that grant 1/day free wishes.
Sometimes that shit you can do with the item rules is fucking wild.

>>93231825
>unlimited bonus feats, skills, and spellcasting
How in the fuck did they screw up that bad? Did they have no Editors?

>>93231825
Linking response from other thread:
>>93231923

>>93231937
Why didn't you just Copy/Paste?
>Note that "establishes a hive mind in any swarm" allows suggestion to affect animal or vermin swarms
Noted. So it only affects creature that comes in the thousands.
>"Hivemind" (one word) is a very different thing that applies sorcerer abilities when creating monsters
That is splitting hairs harder than any rules lawyer.
Especially when a "hivemind"(one word) has no rules, context, or is used as a key-word for an effect anywhere outside of BovD.
I'm sorry but that argument is weak and you know it.

>>93231917
Elder Evils was the last WotC book for 3.5. So probably not.
That feat might have been some author's sneaky gotcha for a DM he didn't like.

>>93232013
The Dark Speech feat from Elder Evils:
>Dark Unity: You can use the Dark Speech to establish a hive mind in any swarm of vermin or animals with an Intelligence score of 2 or lower. Thereafter, you can give the swarm one command as per the suggestion spell (caster level equals your Hit Dice). Whenever you infuse a swarm in this manner, you take 1d4 points of Constitution damage.
The Dark Speech feat from BoVD:
>Benefit:The character can use the Dark Speech to bring loathing and fear to others, to help cast evil spells and create evil magic items, and to weaken physical objects (see Dark Speech in Chapter 2).
The original Dark Speech did not include Dark Unity and therefore could not create hiveminds. The newer version only allowed giving a single command (per use) to a swarm of animals and vermin.
Neither version could create demigods.

>>93232125
>The original Dark Speech did not include Dark Unity and therefore could not create hiveminds.
Anon, what does it say on the left side of page 33 for Dark Speech in Book of Vile Darkness.
no wait, I'll do it for you:
>Dark Unity: The words of the Dark Speech can create a hivemind. Up to one hundred vermin or animals (none of which can have more than 1 HD) form an evil hivemind, as described in the Hivemind section below. The united consciousness of the creatures will take one command from the Dark Speech speaker, as if from the suggestion spell. Pulling creatures under the sway of evil is draining to the speaker, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage each time words of dark unity are uttered.

Funny thing, the original also uses "Hivemind"(one word) and explicitly mentions the Hive Mind section. So "Hivemind" and "Hive Mind" are interchangeable. BovD is also still the only reference for rules on hiveminds.

>>93232242
Once again, the Dark Speech feat from BoVD does not include the ability to use Dark Unity. It only allows "The character can use the Dark Speech to bring loathing and fear to others, to help cast evil spells and create evil magic items, and to weaken physical objects"
Dark Unity in BoVD (the one not granted by Dark Speech) specifically mentions creating a hivemind, whereas the Dark Unity from the Dark Speech feat in Elder Evils says "to establish a hive mind in any swarm of vermin or animals" and "you can give the swarm one command as per the suggestion spell" to specify "swarm".
>explicitly mentions the Hive Mind section.
>So "Hivemind" and "Hive Mind" are interchangeable.
No, it says:
>Dark Unity: The words of the Dark Speech can create a hivemind. Up to one hundred vermin or animals (none of which can have more than 1 HD) form an evil hivemind, as described in the Hivemind section below. The united consciousness of the creatures will take one command from the Dark Speech speaker, as if from the suggestion spell. Pulling creatures under the sway of evil is draining to the speaker, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage each time words of dark unity are uttered.

>>93231937
>>93232125
>>93232397
Anon you seemed to miss the:
>(see Dark Speech in Chapter 2).
both times you read the feat.
Anon, if you don't want demigod swarm creatures, then just don't use them. No one is making you use the feat in your games. The RAW isn't going to change because you hate a rule, that's why rule 0 exists.
This delusional bullshit when anons are providing you the page number and copies of the text is just sad.

>>93232509
>Anon you seemed to miss the: (see Dark Speech in Chapter 2)
You seemed to miss the text of the feat that says "Benefit:The character can use the Dark Speech to bring loathing and fear to others, to help cast evil spells and create evil magic items, and to weaken physical objects"
The benefit section does not mention anything about hiveminds. You can argue that it was *intended* to be included and was cut at the last minute so as to not conflict with the Vermin Lord's final ability, but the BoVD Dark Speech feat does not permit the creation of hiveminds.
The Dark Unity subsection of Elder Evils Dark Speech feat only lets the speaker give a swarm one command at the cost of 1d4 CON.

>>93232634
The "hive mind" mention in Elder Evils "Dark Speech" is in the mechanics of it, "thereafter" commanding it thus denoting these as separate effects. The only game rule anywhere in the system for this is Book Of Vile Darkness, so if you parse according to actual English grammar's separation and are looking at the entire system you'll find there is in fact something being pointed at.

If you are using Book of Vile Darkness, Elder Evils, and the official update guidelines, then this happens. It is perhaps the single most obnoxious class of "Rules As Written", where a term in one book that's clearly supposed to be an intermingling of fluff and crunch accidentally causes unspeakable horrors because it has defined rules somewhere VERY different.

>>93231798
>>93219160 consider the following: you could let them show up to a 3.5 game with a 5e character and just let them be ineffective.

>>93231831
I couldn't think of anything when I made the thread. I thought of something after looking at stuff in the prior thread and catching up on posts. Last thread was just going to be a thread with no TQ.

>>93231842
Yep. Same. That's why the TQ wasn't in the OP last thread. I couldnt think of anything.

>>93232794
After the last two days, I've decided Im either getting him kicked from the group or Im leaving.

Youd think after a year of playing with us that he would have some sort of clue but he asked if he could prestige into Mountebank from Complete Scoundrel one of the prerequisites is being Nonlawful, when I pointed that out he asked to swap to 3 wizard 2 paladin so he could cast 3rd level spells, then he asked if he could add the Petitioner template from the Manual of The Planes. I got him to achknowledge that building wizard paladin was a terrible idea especially since he wants to worship one of the lords of the nine. I suggested swapping paladin out for cleric and going Mystic Theurge or possibly True Necromancer. This morning he texts me and says 'nah Im gonna keep playing the wizard paladin because it has potential'. Somewhere in his babble he said something about "losing the lawful buisness" and Im just sitting there flabbergasted because he specifically chose Tyranny over Slaughter.

He doesnt know what he is doing, he grovels and says he will do better whenever we get on his case, he asks for help only to disregard whatever we say and does whatever sounds nifty to him only to realize too late that he is painfully behind everyone else and is such a hindrance that whoever is DMing doesnt even factor him into combat encounters.

Im sick of him, Im sick of my table tolerating this walking talking cancer, and Im sick of being angry about it, but if no one is going to do something about it then I'd rather be a no games.

>>93233745
>
He doesnt know what he is doing, he grovels and says he will do better whenever we get on his case, he asks for help only to disregard whatever we say and does whatever sounds nifty to him only to realize too late that he is painfully behind everyone else and is such a hindrance that whoever is DMing doesnt even factor him into combat encounters.
I have been in this exact situation dealing with a player who did exactly this before. It fucking sucks and they never get better because they treat the game as their self-expression but they refuse to, you know, actually learn from the piles of examples out there to learn from. That's why we have books. Fuck's sake man.

>>93233745
Is he at least a decent friend or fun player to contrast with being dogshit at the game?

>>93233745
>he is painfully behind everyone else and is such a hindrance that whoever is DMing doesnt even factor him into combat encounters.
Fuck, man. That sounds painful.

>>93233745
>>93233771
>>93233835
At least a fucking sorcerer would have some Cha-in-common. (Though I'd usually give dispensation to make Paladin less MAD and make em a full cha caster)

It baffles me just how shitty and undercooked the Wilder is when the entire idea behind it is explosive barely controllable power, something that's begging for features to attract Timmies with.

As somebody new-ish to the game, I think crafting is so fucking cool in this system.
That said, what are the known pitfalls?

>>93235942
Money, Downtime, Feats, and Levels.
Crafting can take a long time and a lot of GMs can be allergic to giving players large stretches of downtime.
Crafting is also rather feat/skill intensive, which can gimp your combat capabilities and out of combat options when you don't have the right item on hand to make up for your difficiencies. This can be a problem sometimes, as you need a lot of time to make items and you have to make them long before whatever situation you'd need them, ultimately meaning you have to gamble on being able to predict what you'll need in the far future.
Finally, any kind of magic crafting has an XP cost, which means you will always be 1 or more levels behind the other party members. That's part of why custom items are able to be so powerful, they have to make up for the opportunity cost of late spells and class features.

Overall crafting is a high cost/high reward system with a gambling element to it. It's basically like prepared casting, but on steroids.

>>93231870
What level is most of that shit a viable option though? Being able to break the system at level 17+ doesn't mean much when that's where core breaks down anyway

>>93236305
Candle of invocation is viable at any level anon.

>>93236823
>Wish is broken
Tell us something we don't know anon. I think most anons take it as a given that the theoretical GM for their thought experiments isn't so pants-on-head-retarded as to give a low to mid level pc group access to one of the most powerful spells in the game.

>>93233745
If the character doesn't have a CHA bonus, then just plan on going eldritch knight and only take one level of paladin. It really sounds like the player doesn't have a goal in sight for that character. Did he ever mention any sort of inspiration behind this ill-conceived build?

>>93237117
I was about to ask that.
What's his inspiration? In lieu of that, what does he envision his character as?
If what he wants is an "Arcane Paladin" there's ways to do that.
Maybe tell him about
>https://dndtools.net/classes/mystic-fire-knight-paladin/

>>93236919
NTA but people have lost the meaning of Wish. Is not supposed to work as the PC dreams, unless the DM is being pitiful in a dire situation.
I think something about it has been lost in translation (or rather transition) edition after edition.

>>93237207
3.5 has a list of effects that always work and that the dm isn't supposed to fuck with. Making magic items is one of those effects, and unlike mundane items it has no cap(even though 3e originally had a 25k gold value cap).

>>93233817
I wouldnt call him a friend. He has little to nothing in common with the table. He is just a rando our primary DM invited to the table. Usually shit players filter themselves out after a month or two but we speculate he just wants friends which would explain the lack of any sort of improvement after a year of being in the group. My mom actually suggested that when he asks for help with his characters that he really isnt looking for help and he really just wants some reason to shoot the shit. It would explain why any suggestions from me and the other players just falls on deaf ears and isnt actually considered.

We describe him as 'nice' but he has subtle moments of being a venomous little shit. He tried to kill another player once because a unicorn befriended that player instead of him. He tried issuing orders to one of my characters and even refered to her as a useless whore despite the fact I was the only one with any sort of range or mobility to fight the bullywugs throwing spears at us. One game he made an aasimar who just kept using Daylight which blinded another player's kobold PC it got to the point the kobold PC initiated pvp and I had to ask the player not to outright kill him. This was still early on so I was more forgiving of his dipshittery. When we briefly switch to Vampire the Masquerade he tried to diablerize my character when I went into torpor and the ST had to outright declare it didnt happen.

>>93237117
>>93237181
I think his current character has a 17 CHA. But I dont think there was any inspiration/plan with this current character considering he wanted to prestige into Mountebank and "losing the lawful buisness". It really seems like he just skims the books or websites for things that sound nifty considering how often he will link to 5e shit and homebrew options.

>>93237309
>Making magic items is one of those effects,
The magic item involves a calling effect, which is open ended, to elicit a wish spell, which is open ended.

>>93237464
Cripes. Definitely boot him then. I get that some players aren't too invested in the game and just want to spend time with folks (my college campaign had a druid who forgot she could cast spells most of the time), but when it goes from being invested at a below average level to being actively antagonistic to amuse themselves then they're beyond salvaging.

>>93237487
What? Anon, it doesn't matter if it's a candle of invocation, luck blade, or a ring of three wishes, the "wish" aspect of it isn't the open ended part. Wishing for magic items isn't part of the greater effects clause, so a dm isn't allowed to mess with that unless he uses rule zero to rewrite wish entirely.

>>93237562
I hope you are just being intentionally obtuse.
The only thing guaranteed to work is the candle going off. How the gate effect or the wish that the gated creature are going to grant will work is on the dm.
Thinking otherwise is assuming A LOT and basically being accustomed to a pushover DM.

>>93237595
The candle was an example anon. It doesn't need to be a candle of invocation for >>93236823 >>93236919 anons points to be true.
The wish is, again, not open ended. If a DM is fucking with it, then they're using homebrew.

>>93237595
Candle of Invocation applies Gate, with the only restriction being an Alignment limiter:
>In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.

The use of a Wish SLA is quite difficult to argue being outside the Immediate Service clause of Gate:
>Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

Wish's list of explicit no-risk effects includes this:
>Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
>When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

SLAs include this:
>A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost.

It is not "on the DM" unless you insist they habitually wipe their ass with the rules on ANY occasion they output an "undesirable" result, at which point you rapidly stop playing D&D in favor of whatever the DM pleases. You're playing out of a book written with the expectation of paying for it, insisting you're SUPPOSED to ignore what's in there is rather silly.

>>93237705
>>93237712
You are hilarious, but then again something got lost in the edition transition.
I will keep wish dangerous as it used to be, enjoy your broken interpretation then cry about it, clown.

>>93237784
>something got lost in the edition transition.
If you want to play 2e there's a thread for that. This is a 3.5 thread.

>>93237784
Are you dumb? Wish explicitly says it has uses the DM can't fuck with. Who gives a *fuck* about your interpretation?

>>93237784
The break is on the SLA rules negating the cost, there is no "interpretation" creating the break. This is an exploit, something the rules that are in the book quite clearly allow but is obviously silly. Drown-healing is another, as is pointing out the shenanigans of lighting being backwards. Resorting to Rule Zero to paper over them is an insistence that every DM do a sizable chunk of game design work rather than treating them as an end user who ought to be able to use it out of the box just like the players.

>>93237784
>every called outsider with wishes mysteriously has them missing at all times
This is believable and not at all retarded

>>93237487
>The magic item involves a calling effect, which is potentially open ended with several binding stipulations, to elicit a wish spell, which is open ended only if the player elects for an effect not on the list
Fixed that one for you.

>>93236264
There's an option somewhere to have someone else pay the xp (for crafting items for other people), isn't there?

>>93236264
XP costs don't stick unless you're consistently using them. You get more XP while behind.

>>93238580
If you're a magic item crafting focused build, then you will be consistently using xp.

>>93238516
Talismans of tranference anon. They allow you to evenly split the xp loss up to 5 ways, so the party would all end up the same amount of xp behind.
It pretty much negates the leveling issues of crafting.
That's also before we factor in mitigating feats, effects, or associations that net you percentage based reductions. It's entirely possible to stack xp cost negation cost down to 1 xp per item.

>>93238132
You are unable to understand that the outsider will have wish but wishes are not foolproof you fucking retard.

>>93239036
That's not what Wish says. Don't care about your headcanon.

>>93239036
>A wish can produce any one of the following effects
...
>You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

>>93238716
Oh. Neat. I was thinking I remembered one where someone else pays the entire xp cost useful if you're making the fighter a sword, for him to pay for it.

Which feats give you xp cost reductions?

>>93239036
Just joinong the convo now, but: by the book wishes are foolproof if you stick to the things on the safe-list, anon. Reading the [spell] explains the [spell].

>>93239141
>>93239158
>>93239236
No. Thinking that an Efreet is not going to fuck you over is folly.

>>93239451
Wish-haggling is not within the bounds of Immediate Service Gates, sorry. It does the one thing you tell it to, then fucks off.

>>93239451
No. They get to fuck you over if you wish for more than is listed. The entire reason the spell is like this is to prevent the horde of retarded DMs who would go "Okay you wished for gold BUT THE GOLD PIECES APPEARED IN YOUR ESOPHAGUS YOU CHOKE TO DEATH LOL!"

>>93239451
A dominated efreet (IE controlled as per the rules text of the gate spell) has no such free will to fuck you over with. If you're not able to control the efreet, then sure.

Personally I would go with just pointing out "Efreeti can only wish 1/day. Roll me a d100. On 00 they haven't already used it on anything today".

Or just ban candles of invocation.

But just ruling "spells don't work like the book says they do unless I feel like it" out of spite is a great way to burn down any confidence your players have in you as a GM.

>>93239618
This. If you want to ban it or change it, ban it or change it before it hits the table, don't make someone do something stupid after the fact.

>>93239226
it'll be easier to just give a link than to explain in depth: https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1000.0

>>93239792
This list is missing the Talismans of transference.
If we include third party from previous threads, Mongoose's book on magic items has a feat that changes the xp calc of items from (GP value/20) to (GP value/50).
Iron kingdoms allows you to replicate nearly any magic item as a mechanica equivalent that cost less than half as much GP to make, but needs to be charged rather than working forever.
Dragonmech also has giant mechs. That has nothing to do with the subject, but dragonmech has giant fucking mechs.

>>93240328
>That has nothing to do with the subject
Incorrect. Giant mechs are always relevant, especially when we're talking about how to customize equipment more cost effectively.

>>93240354
I wonder how many Fiends of Possession it would take to enhance a City-Mech?

>>93240455
I don't think that would work anon. FoP have a size cap, and dragonmech's teamwork casting rules are only for spells, not spell-likes or supernatural abilities.

>>93240702
>teamwork casting
How does it compare to UA incantations or circle magic?

>>93240702
Don't the City Mechs have smaller emplaced weapons? And I'm reasonably sure there's other areas you can define Colossal or smaller mechanically-relevant parts to enhance.

>>93240721
Dragonmech group casting works by a feat that allows multiple casters casting the same spell to merge the effect into one spell. The caster can each choose to modify one aspect of the spells range, area of effect/target, or duration by the number of casters making the same choice.

So if 5 casters combine-cast and 3 choose range while 2 choose duration, the spell would hit from 3 times farther away and last 2 times as long.

Dragonmech has a size limit for "Target: one creature" spells(which is somewhere around collosal), so a wizard casting shivering touch can't bone an entire city-mech. Combine-casting allows casters to affect 1 size category over the cap for each caster modifying that aspect.

>>93240907
Sure, but a city-mech's weapons are going to be several times colossal in size, far outside the max of any FoP, unless we're talking the hundred of mounted crossbows that are only used to gun down crew members in opposed mechs.

Working on maneuvers and it strikes me just how shit of a feat Improved Overrun is. On top of the combat maneuver sucking itself, a character who wants to get past and isn't concerned about knocking someone prone is objectively worse off for having it because they always have to spend actions to do it now.

>>93240995
Never understood why 3e makes martials need to take a feat to so much as wipe their ass., or why pathfinder kept that in as a feature.

>>93241035
Because for a given level of granularity it's a lot easier to think of cool spells than cool ways to use a weapon, and because Paizo thought the main issue with linear martials and exponential casters was the exponent chosen.

>>93240942
Oh. That's cool. How cleanly could that be applied to a game using the regular magic system? No problem, or no way?

>>93241962
It's a bit fucky on balance outside the host setting's Fuckhuge quota, but as it's almost strictly for raw scale of effect rather than throughput it fits in fine beside the official Circle Magic and Cooperative Spell.

Writing rules for 3.5 is just clause after clause after clause after special exemption, I swear.

Someone mentioned that the original 3E, not 3.5E, was made by a lot of hangers on from TSR who were working on late AD&D 2E, stuff like Skills and Powers.
Are any of the design documents and conversations from the late 90 or early 2000s about how and why they designed 3E the way they did from 2E?

>>93242947
There are bits of it on the old archived version of Sean K Reynolds personal webite. I think there used to be some stuff on Monte Cook's website too. And yeah, they were mostly designers inherited from TSR.

>>93243207 contd
Discussion, that is. I haven't come across any design documents.

File: d&d_art_laziness.png (679 KB, 921x592)

679 KB PNG

So anyone wanna add any feats to the "most powerful / best feats in the game" list I have going? Looked into the discussion of the some of them from last thread and I am not sure how powerful they really are.

Natural Spell
Divine Metamagic
Arcane Thesis
Augment Summoning
Power Attack
Craven
Shock Trooper
Words of Creation
Quicken Spell
Item Familiar
Create Wondrous Item
Greenbound Summoning
Improved Initiative (?)

honorable mentions / tier 2
Knowledge Devotion
Protection Devotion
Ancestral Relic
Travel Devotion

Also has there ever been a count on how many total feats are in the game in all published supplelement books?

File: Feat Tiers v5.pdf (1.24 MB, PDF)

1.24 MB PDF

>>93245930
L
E
A
D
E
R
S
H
I
P
Dragon Cohort probably counts too.
It's not nowhere near s powerful as Leadership, but having a second body on the battlefield is always strong.
Take a look at this PDF, courtesy of some anon many threads ago.
Lovely work.

>>93245930
Dark Speech didn't make the list?

>>93246248
It sounded like it didn't work the way that the other anon said it did.

>>93245930
Able Learner: Human racial feat that makes All skills class skills forever. Want an obscure trained only skill with overpowered implications like reverie, high draconic, or life-shaping? It's yours.

>>93246267
It does, the anon disagreeing with him was essentially making a bad raw argument like the "wish is open ended" guy.
Other anon was wrong about who the feat effects(it only affects animal/vermin swarms), but they weren't wrong that they removed the creature cap for hivemind rules.

>>93246284
I gets even dumber. Them making it swarm-exclusive actually made it more broken. Each swarm is made of thousands of creatures.

>>93246269
Not QUITE class skill. Class skill costs, but cross-class max skillcap remains.

>>93246284
Funnily, virgin dark-speekers still get fucked by Words of Creation chads. The true-name power of words of creation can reliably teleport away their pet demi-gods. The save is Will-based, and hivemind doesn't buff that.

>>93246331
Oh right. Pretty sure there's another feat that fixes that, but I can't remember which one.

>>93246248
It's powerful, but it doesn't make aberration-construct demigods like one anon suggested. There's two versions and the newer one in Elder Evils is the one causing all the problems. Use the one from Book of Vile Darkness and there's no problem. That one looks like you can't even use it to make hiveminds anyway.

>>93246340
>Infinite Cosmic Power, itty-bitty will-save.
Can't most caster wreck those supposed "demi-gods" then?

>>93246284
The problem with Dark Speech is that created Hiveminds are like HYPER MEGA EVIL. And your whole "control" over them is one Suggestion. What do you think a mad genius hivemind is going to make out of your character after initial command runs out? They probably can learn taxidermy in a couple of days before the rot sets in to preserve your body for posterity.

>>93246348
I believe it's "Once a class skill, always a class skill" for skill cap, so if you're multiclassing/prestiging Able Learner negates the downside of skill lists not matching at least.

>>93246362
>There's two versions
3.5's update rules makes the elder evils version an official update of the original. There aren't 2 feats, there's 1 feat with an update.
You can Rule Zero it, but arguing you can pick which version is raw is like other-anon trying to argue their homebrew "wish is open ended" is the raw way to play.
>That one looks like you can't even use it to make hiveminds anyway.
Oh my fucking god don't start with that bullshit again.

>>93246383
Luckily as this anon pointed out: >>93246368 their wisdom and will scores are still garbage, so you could very reliably point the nuke wherever you want. The issue it the classic wizard/middle manager problem, they have humongous intelligence, infinite cosmic power, and low wisdom, they're inevitably going to fuck something up when they're hit by a "Great Idea".

>>93246412
There is also the fact that their whole "loyalty" until someone hits them with a dispel or something similar. At which point we have the classical case of Evil Wizard being eaten by his pet monster that he mistreated.

>>93246368
>>93246412
This is sounding less intimidating as anons keep talking and more like the design for a loony tunes character. It seems like more trouble than its worth trying to steer around the spirit of Wile E Coyote.

>>93246430
I've read the evil overlord handbook anon, I remember point 48:

>I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge.

>>93245930
I'll throw in a vote for fairy mysteries initiate. It allows you to substitute you intelligence for constitution when it comes to extra hitpoints. Throw that on a lich an laugh as his hp exceeds the barbarian's.

>>93246437
It's worse - it's Wile E Coyote with dynamite. A lot of dynamite. Since hiveminds get sorcerer casting. So you get cartoonishly evil henchman, that is not exactly loyal to you without magical control and with wisdom somewhere around the level of Florida Man that is also capable of burning down whole buildings on a whim, or doing something even worse.

>>93245930
Magic In The Blood(dwarf, elf, gnome, and plane-touched only) turns your racial 1/day powers into 3/day.
This can make a number of inherited templates Really powerful.

>>93246500
>wisdom somewhere around the level of Florida Man
Now I want to do this, if only to watch the chaos from a safe distance.

>>93246437
Also going by the Vile Darkness rules for hiveminds requires all the creatures to be within ten feet of each other, so a strong wind could undo the "demi-god".

>>93240942
>>93246383
Wait, couldn't a hivemind use dragonmech cooperative casting with itself?

>>93246368
>>93246538
Christ this is like vampire, a bunch of cool abilities dragged down by a laundry list of stupid weaknesses.

>>93246544
If your DM somehow let your evil party find a way travel to the dragonmech universe. It's probably going to involve a lot of sphere of annihilation getting destroyed though.

>>93246550
Frankly, the ability to pull high level sorcerers out of your ass on a whim is hideously obscene, and their apparent fragility is actually a bonus, since you can just dissolve them after they cast some spells and replace them whenever you want without having to worry about what the old ones are doing.

>>93246544
Depends, how many actions do hiveminds get? Is the group considered a single creature when it comes to spellcasting, or can every creature cast from the group's pool of spells?

>>93246579
The hivemind effect doesn't ever end though, so if any of the component creatures are back within 10 ft of each other, it should re-form. The dark speech user would need to be very thorough to ensure no singular animal escapes or it might reform like kyuss, this time seeking vengeance.

>>93246598
3 years later
Each rat has an eye patch, some have prosthetic limbs.
- I lived, bitch!

>>93246598
Never thought about it by now, but the big bad from age of worms functions exactly like a vermin hivemind that started taking class levels, huh.

>>93246598
>>93246624
Did BovD or the age of worms adventure path come out first? It'd be funny if the designers realized their mistake, only to lean into it for one of the best adventure paths ever written.

>>93245930
Dragonwrought. It makes many DMs screech in furry, but by Raw it makes kobolds qualify for a lot of things intended for D&D's favorite winged quadrupeds.

>>93246696
I second this, it makes kobolds that can qualify for epic feats at low levels.

>>93245930
Leadership, Item Familiar, Greenbound Summoning, Earth Spell, Dragonwrought, Metamorphic Transfer, Assume Supernatural Ability, Reserves of Strength.

>>93246740
>Reserves of Strength
That's my favorite. Combine with enough caster level boosters, you can become a discount incantantrix with one feat.

>>93245930
>>93246740
Don't forget Node Magic, Circle Magic, and Sanctum Spell.

>>93246768
Oh, and that psionic one. Midnight Augmentation, arguably the second best psionic feat (after MT Psionics).

>>93245930
Supernatural Tranformation. It makes any spell-like into a supernatural ability. The way psionics work, you can use it to make your manifester level equal your HD as a minimum, it is The feat for psionic multiclassing or gishes.

>>93246696
>>93246725
How did kobolds accidentally become one of the most overpowered races in D&D? Between this and Sarrukh abuse, Kobolds are only rivaled only by humans in their ability to conquer the world.

>>93246932
There's actually a small number of bonuses for kobolds specifically spattered around. Between those and their lack of LA, kobolds are actually the strongest player race for sorcerers, wizards, or rogues.

>>93246932
It's setting dependent. there aren't any Sarrukh outside of ed greenwood's wild ride. Same reason no one will be talking about humans getting the most overpowered dragonmark outside of eberron.
Elves are in the running for strongest player race if you add in dark chaos shuffle shenanigans though, they end up with 4 extra feats to trade.

Regarding Dark Speech and the dark unity ability, the command functions as per Suggestion and Suggestion is language-dependent so does this ability fail if Speak With Animals, or the like, isn't also active?
There's so many ways to shut this down it's laughable.

>>93247007
Sarrukh are not only setting specific, they're very obscure and probably extinct, so nobody cares about them except for Pun-Pun shenanigans. Kobolds are good because they have a lot of options inherently and then also get to raid the special dragon rules. That is good enough to make them top tier.

>>93246230
That looks awesome I'll look through that.
Leadership is definitely there
Dragon cohort works too.

>>93245930
Have you looked at anon's point buy feats document? I don't have it on my new phone, but it's linked in my index in the OP.

>>93246230
There we go. that one.

>>93247464
Point buy feats is a terrible idea. The power of most feats is context dependent, and there are a number of ways to completely break the game just with the tier 4-6 feats. I like anon feat tiers as a guide for warning GMs which characters to be wary of, and how wary they should be, but they shouldn't tie in to any kind of game mechanic.

>>93247034
>Suggestion is language-dependent
Add it to the pile anon. Maybe the designers weren't doing LSD when they removed to creature cap on Dark Speech, they may have just expected Players and DMs to actually read the damn rules before immediately crying about how broken the game is.

>>93246901
Is it really OP though? The manifester level boost for martial gishes isn't really better than taking all your levels in psionic classes/prestige classes and using pwer combos/psionic items to give yourself stats on par with a martial. Ignoring SR/PR is nice, but not that game-changing.

Does a focus count as a costly material component?

>>93248050
No, foci and material components are separate. A focus remains after casting, but a material component is consumed.

>>93248070
This is for the Archmage's SLA ability, for the record. I know how they operate normally, but I have no idea what it's supposed to do when you have a costly focus.

>>93248077
In the case of a costly focus, nothing changes and the character has to have that focus with him in order to use the ability.

>>93247809
Not by itself no, but it's easy to combo with other theurge boosters to amazing effect. Prime examples are the Psiotheurge feat and the Mind Mage prestige class(which also stack with each other, together you can get manifester level to 3x HD in a limited number psionic disciplines and 2x HD in all others, this also applying in reverse to caster level on the magic side of the theurge's magic schools)

>>93248152
You mean "Psiotheurgist" from dragon magazine?
Freindly reminder that psiotheurgist, mind mage, and psi-spell feats were all released as powers discovered by Illithids. Between that shit and Illithid savant, if DM allows you your cool high-optimization build, then you should fear mind flayers like a vampire fears the sun.
To top it off they have loyal pets called mindwitnesses, and these lovely qualify for all of the above and Beholder Mage.
Fear the children of the greatest empire yet to come anons. They are inevitable.

>>93248152
On the other hand, it requires your psionics are able to be affected by Anti-magic field. If your DM wasn't using transparency, you'll be giving yourself a new host of weaknesses.
>>93248247
>qualify for all of the above and Beholder Mage
Fuck That

>>93248050
A costly material component is consumed each casting and must be replaced. A costly focus is not, but you can't cast the spell without it.

>>93248565
That's for normal spells. SLAs don't use components, foci, or XP costs, but Archmage's SLA ability sticks you with XP costs and makes you pay 10x a costly material component's cost in XP.

>>93248407
>Fuck That
No. I'm not a degenerate anon.

>>93248609
Beholders need loving too anon.

>>93248609
>>93248627
If the illithid savant/beholder mage horror wants loving, then I don't any of us are getting the option of refusing.
10 spells as a free action and a +12-20 on grapple checks render any argument invalid.

>>93231798
Can this also be a 1st edition Pathfinder thread?

>>93248800
No

>>93231798
You are a 20th level wizard, with appropriate gold in magic items. Tell me how you'd solo any encounter. Try to make them challenging.

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>>93248811
pls?

>>93248579
SLA also don't use foci, and Archmage doesn't say that it does either. No focus, regardless of cost.

>>93248824
I mean, I'd say it's adjacent enough as long as it's a mix of 3.5e and PF in one way or another.
What do you want to talk about?

>>93248800
>>93248824
>>93248842
Fuck off. Paizo has a thread.
Pathfinder may be a 3.5 homebrew setting, but it has so many exclusive mechanics and changed rules to be relegated to its own subject. Otherwise we'll have hoard of pathfinder anons giving misinformation whenever someone has a 3.5 question.

>>93248785
I equip my player's handbook and engage the DM in single combat. Roll for initiative bitch.

>>93248800
A few of us mix PF1 stuff in selectively. i like the bestiaries, some of the art, the setting, and some of the base class stuff, while disliking the magic changes, akill changes, and feat changes. But this is primarily a thread that dislikes what Paizo did with the system. Some to the extent of avoiding everything by the company. It's not unlike posting AD&D 2e stuff in the OSR thread for how poorly it's received.

If you make a PF1 only general, I would open it up in addition to this one, though I would be more active here. I stopped going to the Paizo thread because frankly I like 3e better and I give no fucks about Pathfinder 2e. My interest in PF2 could not be lower.

>>93248077
Anon, I fucked up and confused Innate Spell with the archmage's ability. Ignore this >>93248110, no focus is needed.

>>93246486
That's insane. I would put it on a different list since it's from Dragon Magazine but that's still nuts. If a DM allows that he's insane. Good buff for elf wizards though.

>>93246523
Hmm. Any in particular?

>>93246696
>Dragonwrought.
This is because of the dragon subtype right?

>>93246932
Draconic kobolds were a mistake.

>>93247007
>Elves are in the running for strongest player race if you add in dark chaos shuffle shenanigans though, they end up with 4 extra feats to trade.
What's that?

>>93249262
Elf weapon proficiencies are given in the form of feats. You can use the spells Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos to transform any feat to any other feat. Therefore, elves get four free feats.

>>93249262
You infuse the creature touched with raw chaos channeled from the Abyss.
Somehow it looks more fiendish than before.
The subject immediately gains one Abyssal heritor feat for which it qualifies, chosen by you at the time of casting.
If the subject does not qualify for the designated feat, the spell fails.
This Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject's choice that it already possesses.
The replaced feat need not have been an Abyssal heritor feat.
If the lost feat was a prerequisite for other feats or prestige classes, the subject loses access to those feats or prestige class abilities until it once again meets all the prerequisites.
Once the subject has the Abyssal heritor feat, only a miracle,
shun the dark chaos, or wish spell can reverse the change.
XP Cost: 250 XP.

Shun the Dark Chaos is much the same but transforms an Abyssal Heritor feat into any other feat the target qualifies for.

2 eighth level spells with 250xp costs each.

>>93249262
>>93249340
>>93249357
Same thing works for the 4 feats you gain from Heroes of Horror Corruption Rules, so a Corrupted Elf can get more feats at level 1 than a level 20 human. With 15 feats, not including bonus feats from classes, corrupt elves are basically the race for any feat-starved optimization builds(AkA All of them, but some have non-elf racial requirements, like Killer gnome)
Of the top 4 overpowered races in D&D, elves would be a solid case for 4(The others obviously being Illithids, Beholders, and Dragons[including kobolds]).

>>93249525
>bonus feats from classes
Also magic/psionic/extraordinary items and magical locations.

>>93248912
>>93249004
I don't like Pathfinder 2 either, thats why I want to come here.

>>93248912
>>93248842
seriously though, you guys need to come together. there isn't enough of a playerbase to support all these edition wars.

TODD has the right idea, 3.5 and PF1 are almost identical and it says right in PF1 core books that 3.5 books are meant to be compatible.

>>93249609
I mean seriously, its kind of fucking embarrassing how much this indie credit 'cooler than thou' bullshit is getting.

>>93249618
OSR should be BX, 1st ed and 2nd/ original 3rd ed
and 4th and 5th should be nD&D
and 3.5 and PF 1st editions should be its own thing.

>>93249640
Now you've got 3 clubs for like 7 editions. Thats a lot more manageable.

>>93249645
If every edition has its own general there will never be enough of you in one thread to sustain it without having to constantly bump it from page 10.

>>93249640
If Paizo wants its own general thats fine, they can keep Starfinder and PF2 over there; i really don't want to associate with them.

>>93249640
>4E and 5E together
No.

>>93249609
PF has some absolutely retarded decisions. It had years of articles written about the problems of 3.5 and instead of actually dealing with them they in most cases did just a side step and in others actively made it worse. So fuck 'em.

>>93249525
>any feat-starved optimization builds(AkA All of them
Thank you for bringing that up. It has always bothered me whenever someone says "this build is really tight/short on feats" like that doesn't describe every build ever made.

Question. With Divine Earth Mastery it mentions that you can alter any amount of earth or stone as a free action and then specifies some spells you can duplicate. Would that mean you could use Move Earth as a free action and not take the 10 minutes plus needed?

>>93249912
It does, but even if it's exempt due to strange parsing, divine abilities are standard actions.

>>93248609
beauty is literally in its eye bro

>>93249609
Sure. But PF1 has dumbass design choices right in core. Like its martial feats. And CMB/CMD. And random spell nerfs to spells that were fine, like darkness. 3 steps forward 5 steps back. >>93249697 yep. More customizable base classes is nice, but they made a lot of missteps.


>>93249640
OSR is about dungeon crawling and relatively simple characters.

2e and 3.0 are about a mix of dungeon crawling and fantasy sandbox adventuring.

3.5 and PF1 are more obsessive about minis while keeping enough 3.0 for those of us who don't really give a fuck enough about minis to want 3/4 of every session to be combat.

4e is straight up a minis wargame.

5e is more or less 3.0 e9 with 70% of the rules remoced and the gaps papered over with GM Fiat.

For people with experience playing at levels beyond 20, what are some good rules to continue a game past lvl 20 without actually going into epic levels?
Start a parallel gestalt-like advancement?
Or is it better to just use the epic rules and keep it simple?

>>93251943
There's several approaches to take, but it all hinges on what your players want. Here's a few I've used:
1) Lock in at 20HD, parallel gestalt advancement, reroll hitpoints when a character advances in a class with superior hit die (wizard 20 takes a gestalt level of fighter, rolls 19d4+1d10 for hitpoints), but otherwise business as usual.
2) Unlock epic levels, take to the planes for serious experience gains, and prepare to slowly escalate challenges to keep up with the players. Don't be afraid to throw lots of weak enemies at them before blindsiding them with something really nasty to remind them "there's always someone stronger".
3) The party wakes up in another reality with their current base ability scores, hitpoints, and saves, but their class abilities are locked away until they gain levels in new classes. The old abilities come back gestalt style as they level. Basically, new game plus and with a hidden quest of finding out what the hell happened.
4) Open up magical mutation options and negotiate templates to add based on experience gained post-20.

>>93252090
>4) Open up magical mutation options and negotiate templates to add based on experience gained post-20.
Interesting.
Something like, instead of gaining class levels, you use XP to pay for LA.
So enough XP for 2 levels = a template of LA 2, something like that.
I like that. I like that a lot.
Of course, LA is a terribly unbalanced mechanic, but there's a whole series of threads on GitP re-balancing stuff like that, so that's not really an issue at this point.

>>93252124
That's basically how it went except that I had to curate the templates. One example was the rogue dragging everyone through what amounted to a yugoloth bank heist and a few characters picking up half-fiend templates for their trouble.

>>93231798
>Thread Question: Does anyone actually read the thread questions as conversation starters or are they just part of the block of text?
So many of them I just do not care about.
If they were relevant to what I cared about, and I had something to contribute (Sorta like this one) I would absolutely response at least once.
Last thread didn't have one.
And the one before that I simply missed - cause I've been out of town.

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Oh god guys... Help me.
So I've been talking to some younger crowd, most of them started and only played in 5e.

There is this weird culture shift in the new D&D mindset. Back when 3.x days there were kinda two board mindsets.
Either you made your own homebrew and for the people that really got into it? And people though that was great. - Sometimes homebrewing a setting took a lot of work, and players (mostly) appreciated that.
Or you stuck to one of the "old" settings, and if you did that you had to go delving to older oD&D or 2e books boxset, doing a lot of self conversion sometimes, and people also thought that was fun. 3.x had some lore to contribute, but it was all based off the older stuff. 3e built ontop of the older editions, the same way 2e built ontop of the earlier stuff.

Talking to newer crowd these days... If it wasn't printed in 5e, and specifically spelled out? It didn't exist.
>Vecna never ascended to Godhood because when the Vecna dossier came out it states he's just and arch lich
>The REAL Tomb of horrors is on toril, cause the Tomb of Annihilation books don't talk about greyhawk
>What's an Aoskar? didn't exist.
>Oops. Vecna is suddenly a demi god now because Eve of Ruin said so.
If the only setting - Forgotten Realms - doesn't say so. Then it didn't happen, until we get a new book.

Like... Kids. Read the older stuff. All the new stuff is based on the older stuff. I wasn't old enough to be a thinking human in 2e time. I grew up in 3e, but I still went back and read all the old stuff.

/rant

>>93252356
>Talking to newer crowd these days... If it wasn't printed in 5e, and specifically spelled out? It didn't exist.
You just got lucky and dodged the 3.5 ones. I think WoW acted as containment for these types, but more and more of them got into tabletop. I remember an argument that Myrkul never had any official domains until one of the later books listed them.

>>93252214
Last thread it got added in like the second thread reply. Easy to miss, but thinking up the thread question when making the thread is not so easy. I couldn't come up with one when I made the thread, and then got inspiration and added it as an early reply.

>>93252356
How are we supposed to help you fix a generation that likes the new Hasbro law of "every edition has its own canon, regardless of our contractual obligations to the setting creators we're breaking". It can't be fixed. They're fucked. All you can say is ”we're using the continuity as it existed up to 1385DR. Primary sources are the setting books, followed by the novels; the comics, then the videogames, then stuff written by *these* people on Candlekeep or DMs Guild. FR Wiki can be used as a tool so long as you understand its not gospel as it includes many retcons that will not apply. If you act like 4e/5e continuity is canon and get pushy about it you will be asked to leave." and if they start acting up, kick them out.

>>93252780
Pro move: use "modern canon" knowledge as a knowledge, obtained from an unreliable source (modern researcher, some written by theologically inept retard footnotes, fake legends etc), while during actual encounters use original information - "plot twist - this shady fucker, who had told you, that Vecna is merely a lich, was Vecna's follower and had tried to lure you into a trap/to redirect you away from messing with his business".

>>93252356
The room temp IQ crowd was there in every edition anon, you don't see much of it now because they tend to follow the shiny new thing(new edition, new other game, etc).
The latest issue is that everyone is slowly realizing 5e is shit and 5.5e is going to be worse, so they've started escaping containment into other editions and games.
If you want to explain something in a way they'll understand, 1e-3e had one canon, 4e rebooted everything, and 5e rebotted everything again, but tried to take the parts it liked from 4e and 5e. whatever happens in 5e has absolutely nothing to do with 1e-3e and exists in a different parallel universe.

>>93251943
Use the proto-epic rules from the forgotten realms campaign setting. HD is locked at 20, saves don't increase, no new spells/slots, etc. When leveling up 21+, a player get to pick either gaining the class features of a new class(but not any of the above), a +1 to any stat, or a +1 to BaB. The only way to get new feats is via the "Bonus Feat" class feature.
Finally, allow the epic feats from the ELH. They broken if abused, but like the Dark Speech hiveminds discussed above, they aren't nearly as overpowered as people pretend.

>>93252968
Most epic feats actually suck, except the spellcaster ones. They also aren't that bad except Epic Spellcasting, which is broken bullshit. Also, the hivemind discussion ended on two limiting factors that counter-balanced each other perfectly, leaving only the result of "you can create high level spellcasters out of thin air."

>>93252501
Aren't "Domains" a 3e thing to begin with? Pretty sure the term appeared nowhere in the TSR portfolios, as things instead ran off spell spheres that don't translate very well to the 3.X paradigm.

>>93253045
There were called "Spheres", "Spheres of influence" or "Included in their portfolio" previously.
The concept of domains existed previously they just didn't get a codified name until 3e.

>>93253039
>Epic Spellcasting
If you remove the "sacrifice a spell slot" mitigating factor, epic spells instantly become balanced.

>>93252356
You can't imagine how tired I am of explaining to people that the Weave is a FUCKING FAERUN EXCLUSIVE THING! Motherfucking retards!

Like, boy, do people try to shove their mentally challenged god of magic into all the settings where she has no place to be. And in fact will get smacked in the face if she tries to move in.

>>93253039
Infinite Deflection says fuck you, fuck your spell rays, fuck your army and fuck everything else that tries to use a ranged attack. God, it's a cool feat but whoever made it was absolutely retarded.

>>93253063
Yes, I know about the spell spheres, I mentioned them in that very post. But as mentioned, they do not translate very well into the 3.X paradigm, meaning EXACTLY what Domains Myrkul has was in fact undefined prior to Lost Empires of Faerun.

What you are referring to is the Portfolio, not Domains. The Portfolio is the flavor-based list of things the deity has influence over queried by a few Salient Divine abilities, the Domain is the primary mechanic for powers their Clerics get beyond the "standard".

>>93253170
There's also Masque of the Red Death that's predicated on almost exactly the same process, and a lot of the "Forgotten Realms specific Weave rules" had nothing keeping them out of other Planes so anything using the Great Wheel cosmology has to answer for that.

>>93253170
It's technically not "faerun exclusive" in that any setting with gods of magic have a "weave" equivalent, and that every god of magic from every setting is in contact with one another so they can make adjustments to allow travelers the ability to cast spell in their setting. That's a thing that's canon to both spelljammer and planescape.
Granted, "weaves" doesn't allow magic to fucntion, they're a control mechanism build to prevent arcane casters being to powerful or destructive. Prime example of settings without weaves are Dark Sun and Birthright, setting where the gods never existed or are dead and arcane magic wreaks havoc on the world.

>>93253231
So Faerun is, basically, Java magic-wise, whereas worlds without weave are unlimited Assembler with all foot-shooting possibilities?

>>93253269
Pretty much. Gods of magic aren't so much the inventors of magic so much as the admins working to patch exploits or work tech support when a wizard breaks something.

>>93253231
>"weave" equivalent, and that every god of magic from every setting is in contact with one another so they can make adjustments to allow travelers .... That's a thing that's canon to ... planescape.
Nooo at least not in 2e, the old Planescape narrator actively insults the reader for thinking like that and comments how many world can't and don't work like that. Not ever world has a weave, and off handily mentions how Toril spellcaster need to "relearn" how to cast magic quickly without their crutch. It's right in the OG boxset DM guide, not even in some spin off books.
To spelljammer I can't comment, I'm not as familiar.

>>93253313
Maybe it was just spelljammer then.

>>93253296
I like that you have used "when a wizard breaks something" instead of "if". It creates that atmosphere of curiosity and inventiveness leading to bad consequences inevitably on such a scale, that god's intervention is required.

>>93253296
Wait, so the original mystral was a dumbass open-source server owner that handed out dev tools and admin accounts like candy, only to realize this was a bad idea about two minutes into username #1Karsus hacking her account an releasing spaghetti code across the entire network?

>>93253355
Tbh it was quite hard to pull that shit. Karsus was quite a hacker.

>>93253334
>>93253313
It might be due to how you get there. Spelljamming is the "Legit" way with proper customs hand-off so that the home and receiving magic gods can do a clean transplant. Planescaping is the illegal smuggling operation that doesn't involve the gods and thus leaves you on your own to re-learn magic.

>>93253397
But it was still possible, and remember, karsus did this in an era when a intermediate or above deity's stat sheet was "Nope, You Lose" rather than 3e's "Ao has had enough of your shit, mortals get free reign to ass-rape you" stats.

>>93253313
Yeah pretty much this.
>>93253170
Yep. I very much agree. Then you have some damn youtube-explainer altering written context for the sake of their videos and you have some damn player regurgitate it to you.

>Nu huh! Mr.D&DLoreExpert had a video explaining it THIS way
"What? But that's... well not wrong, but very askewed in the wrong direction.
>Well. he knows more than you, cause it's his job
*Go find video, find his sources, find out I'm right. Show the player random ass youtuber is wrong.*

Granted that's probably way, way more effort than I should have bother with... but man that endorphin rush of proving you are right in front of other people.

>>93253431
Fuck, wrong post. Meant to (you) here: >>93253389

>>93253355
>>93253431
Faerun also has a shit ton more dead magic and wild magic zones than other settings, so mystra/mystral is kinda shit at her job in general compared to most other magic gods.

>>93253189
Yeah, knowing which spheres he had in 2e doesn't really tell you which domains to give his clerics in 3e. That's fair. (Spheres were better).

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>>93253397
I like the idea of it metaphorically being Mystra packing your little lunch box. Ok! Have fun out off-world!
Ofcourse it's effectively just Mystra's way of keeping control on you.
I mean for all of 3e there was the ShadowWeave! Something I actually miss. Off-brand Magic (TM).

But anyway, especially when you aren't reading The Realms relate magic. There are just too many examples of the Weave being not required. It's almost propaganda.

>>93252356
I strongly dislike what 5e has done with Faerun.

I understand that Ed wanted it to be a setting where, if it existed in D&D, it had a place in the Realms; however, 5e seems to have turned it into Fantasy Seattle, instead of at least a Ren Faire.

>>93253231
Faerûn has casting via raw magic without the weave. theres Karsus' heavy magic, and there's the adaptations done during the blue fire (Haunted Lands) to adapt to casting without the weave without your spells backfiring. even Szass Tam, who could adapt to the changing paradigm of the nature of magic, was limited to lower level spells.

Faerûn without the weave, and without rare materials, can't support the casting of the higher level spells.

>>93253355
The weave is not just guidelines so you don't blow yourself up. Its a construct necessary for Realmspace to support higher level spell effects. Weaveless casting is much weaker in Faerûn, for whatever reason.

>>93253355
That said, Mystryl's mistake was letting people cast up to like 13th level spells. Mystra cut that back to 9th, with fewer loopholes for godly levels of power.

>>93253483
Dude. Something I can't mention in any of the fucking discord channels I'm in.

Regardless of original reason back in the 70s... Current day Mr. Greenwood?

A ... "friend" of mine regularly hangs out with Ed ... iunno... 2, 3 times a year for a decade now? To play RPGs or Boardgames. The man does NOT like D&D.
He loves his world, he loves his setting, and he loves his story, BUT the things he says- or lack of things he says about D&D the game?
Well, lets just say when you find him out in the wild, He's not playing any version of D&D.

>I know this is a Friend. of a friend, of a friend, saw it on the internet kinda level. But let me vent/gossip damnit!.

>>93253482
>>93253494
Unless you use one of the universal arcane magic practices from unweaved worlds. The current choices are Defiling/preserving, where people drain the life of the planet for full spellcasting, and Scion magic, where you have to murder the inheritor of a dead god so you can "safely" draw arcane magic from natural environments(may or may not come with strange/horrible mutations).

>>93253525
Propaganda.

>>93253439
>That's his job.
And he's fucking terrible at it. That's why I don't watch his slop. He's making shit up and mixing it in with cited sources and presenting it all as equally factual. Jorphdan is not perfect at it, but it's less of a garbage fire.

>>93253453
She's also the god with the lowest K/D ratio in any setting. Mystra/l is the magic god equivalent to that intern that was given a high-level position way too early because the previous supervisor left suddenly.

>>93253453
Faerûn is clearly a world with less innate magic and the weave compensates and ups the magic level.

>>93253545
So the "High Magic" setting in D&D is actually a low-magic setting taking steroid to overcompensate? That's hilarious.

>>93253522
That doesn't surprise me. I imagine what Hasbro did to his baby in 2008 left a very sour taste in his mouth. From his posts I got the impression that if he uses D&D at all its just 2e.

>>93253545
I would buy this, this actually makes a lot of sense. Comparing it to other settings.

>>93253525
>>93253539
Dark Sun and Birthright do in fact lack any weaves and their magic works in any setting, but you don't need to kill the ecosystem or turn into an arcane horror if you use their magic responsibly.

>>93253525
Athas is a world without ancient magic at all, right? So yeah I could see that. Defiling would get your shit pushed in though if people caught you. Nations and epic casters would kill you for the damage you're causing.
But yes, I will grant you some workarounds for casting in dead magic zones/worlds should still work.

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>>93253573
>if wizards use their magic responsibly

>>93253552
>>93253564
Pretty much. if you shut off the weave you'll blow yourself up if you try to cast even mid-level spells unless you're an epic level archmage, and high level spells aren't a thing unless you resort to epic ritual casting like Szass Tam. Faerûn without the weave limits you to 4e powerlevels of magic. You're not casting 9th level spells willy nilly.

>>93253587
* ambient magic, not ancient.

>>93253453
Part of the problem seems to be that most incarnations of Mystra like to be a busybody and insert herself into situations where she has no reason to be really.

Compare to Boccob who doesn't give a fuck. He manages the fundamentals and if someone blows themselves up while experimenting it's not his problem. While Mystra always tries to add training wheels to make sure her wizards don't hurt themselves.

>>93253587
The phaerimm's magic worked the same way defiling did, look how the netherese wizards trying to "push their shit in" worked out for them.
Defiling is kind of a couple tiers above normal magic, and the official mechanics for it reflect that.

>>93253545
>>93253552
>>93253564
Seems to be more low free magic with the Weave acting as either an energy-efficient transmission or something like a tesla coil utility manufacturing "free" magic for public use.

>>93253587
More that the innovators are still around, it's been plenty long enough to be worth calling "ancient" to my awareness. And it's actually Preserving that came first, which ends up provoking improved growth.

>>93253612
You could probably manage it with some combination of Spellpool, Mythal, and Runestaff design work. Would be funny for a spinoff of Shar's cult to crack that just in the nick of time to proceed with laughing in the face of 4e.

>>93253587
>>93253618
No, athas has a shit ton of ambient magic... Or Had anyway. Most of it was eaten by about a baker's dozen spellcaster who're now each slightly more powerful than the average God.

>>93253552
It's specifically high magic because Mystra makes it safer to study and use magic. Where on other worlds initial forays into arcane secrets would see most idiots going extinct on Faerun they actually manage to survive and drag the whole place down.

>>93253618
It seems that the flow of energy from the Planes to Athas is very limited. And if you don't manage your spells properly they start taking the energy whenever they can find it - as in from the Material Plane you are standing on.

>>93253355
>>93253431
>>93253453
>>93253541
>>93253651
So is the general consensus "Fuck Mystra"?

>>93253522
That's a little surprising; I would have assumed he runs some heavily homebrewed version of AD&D at home.

>>93253673
I VOLUNTEER!

>>93253673
>So is the general consensus "Fuck Mystra"?
Was that ever in question? She literally managed to earn a nemesis in Shar. How far up your own ass you need to be as a god of magic to manage that?

>>93253628
Phaerimm don't cast like in dark sun. They eat the ambient magic the weave manipulates, not plantlife. That's why they tried to take Evereska. Plant-Life in Faerûn just gets a lot of nutrition from ambient magic. The desertification of Anauroch was not a side effect of their castings, it was a war strategy against Netheril.

>>93253626
This is part of why I say Realmspace is not a naturally high magic sphere. Mystra is dead-set on increasing the amount of magic in the setting. Christ. She has her chosen seed dungeons with spellbooks so that adventuring wizards will find them. Her whole thing is needing "more wizards!" (for unspecified but definitely self serving reasons).

>>93253643
If Athas has ambient magic why can't you just cast like in Greyhawk there?

>>93253642
The weave as a power plant sounds about right, making the juice you need to cast those 5th+ level spells.

>>93253573
Yes, but the problem with that is you point out the two main setting where it works like that.
Greyhawk, Mystara (and hollowearth which is separate.) or even the newer eberron never had "weaves." Heck places ON Toril like defunk Al-Qadim and Maztica are able to draw magic just fine. And yes, yes i hear you. Before you point out that on Al-Qadim Sha'ir draw their magic from the Elements or Jiin. There are En-Sha'ir who don't, and it's been spelled out how they don't use the Weave either.

Also Planescape even talks about Defilers, specifically using an example of one that learned how to draw magic properly when on different worlds, but they still end up draining life around them because it's (Unexplained and "Probably") innate to where they're from, which is why they aren't welcome some places.

>>93253683
Are anons really out here trying to duel ed greenwood for his roastie wifu?

>>93253702
>If Athas has ambient magic why can't you just cast like in Greyhawk there?
Because the ambient magic is tied directly into the life force of living things. Can't tap into one without the other, so learning to defile/preserve is the requirement to use the available magic. Similar rules in Birthright, shit-tons of ambient magic, but it flat-out refuses to be manipulated by anyone that isn't a god or god-related being.

>>93253673
Ehh. She's necessary to making the setting capable of handling higher powered magics, but she's not benevolent. She's like an engineer who cares about keeping the system running and improving the system for the long-term prosperity of the sphere as a whole, not about the individual peasants who live there. Her chosen care more about the little people, but their job is to keep the power plant running.

>>93253706
Are we talking 2e or 3e lore here, because Vecna fucked up a lot of the multiverse's metaphysics after his stint on sigil.
A lot of things don't work the same way they used to.

>>93253689
Shar wants to destroy all life and is a multi-sphere'd-god of despair and entropy. Whether you care about lives, or you care about growth and pushing back entropy, Shar will hate you. Mystra is an autistic engineer magical growth god obsessed with the growth of her own crystal sphere. that enmity was unavoidable.

>>93253626
>sex changes
>nanny state control over your magic
...Mystra is a fucking lefty. No wonder I never like Mystra much or Forgotten Realms, that makes so much sense now

>>93253765
>lefty nanny state.
She's really not. She gives no fuck how you use the magic, so long as you're not using it to prevent people from learning magic or fucking up her system. Shes a bisexual autistic engineer with a casual sex kink.

>>93253763
>Shar wants to destroy all life and is a multi-sphere'd-god of despair and entropy.
Is Shar secretly a Tharizdun in a dress?

>>93253784
Isn't she a literal pedophile and a groomer?

>>93253797
If she is, that's in a book I haven't read.

>>93253753
That's all 2e compared to 2e. And we have no detailed list of what Vecna actually changed other than "3rd edition happened" so don't pull that, because anything Vecna changed lore wise is pure conjecture.

>>93253797
Definitely a groomer

>>93253814
Er except eberron & Mystara, those go to their respect editions.

>>93253786
Could be. The Erevis Cale series (great books btw) set her (and the Netherese Shades who serve her) up as the series' ultimate antagonist. she's apparently devoured countless crystal spheres into lifeless sunless voids.

>>93253814
Not him, but didn't the Astral get fused with the Ethereal when he turned the multiverse inside out?

>>93253819
What book points that out? is that in Making of a Mage? It's been years since I read it, but I thought he was an adult before she banged him, and they had little contact when he was a youth.

>>93253869
I mean, didn't she turn Elminster into a woman or something?

>>93253878
She did, yeah. I believe it was while he was on the run. But I think he was in his 20s at that point, not a kid. If I misremembered though, feel free to correct me.

>>93253786
She doesn't have any of the elder evil "Fuck your Divine Powers" abilities, so she's a much less powerful tharizdun even if she has her heart in the right place.

>>93253797
>>93253878
She's definitely a degenerate and a number of her actions conveniently lead to her being able to fulfill some perverse fantasy. Like how she had a number of daughters out of the blue that she then groomed to have threesomes with her and her groomed boyfriend.

>>93253045
For what it's worth, and as much as I can remember about that game, that player didn't just specify domains and extended it to include spheres, portfolios, whatever. His reasoning was that since it wasn't printed in a 3.5 book, it couldn't be used mechanically.
The game involved the party plus a few drow retainers raiding some ancient ruin. Among those drow was an albino cleric of Kiaransalee (sound familiar?) that really helped against a Myrkul cleric lich by pilfering his undead minions. The player argued to the DM that the cleric shouldn't be able to command undead so many times, DM explained Undeath's domain power, the player argued that it was impossible to know what domains a deity had in 3.5 until it was officially printed, and DM compromised by swapping out Undeath for Death. The player's PC was also close to the lich and took a death touch the next round that killed the PC.

>>93253902
And then he chose to pick up an elf boyfriend as a woman to experiment and see what life as a woman was like. And then went back to being a man a while later, and seems to prefer being a man banging women. I'm not debating him being polymorphed into a woman. that definitely happened. I just thought he was an adult when that happened.

My main point though >>93253784 she's not an authoritarian controlling lefty imposing her half-baked moral ideas on people and trying to remove them from society (or from magic) if they don't think what her mob wants them to. She has her electric grid. She wants to grow the grid and increase the number of people who can use it (to increase the power of the crystal sphere maybe? I dunno why). so long as you're not destroying her electric grid or killing off all her budding electrical engineers, she doesn't really give a shit what else you do unless you're one of her contractors.

>>93253829
No we still had those basically unchanged.
We're in a 3e thread. We had Ethereal Jaunt & Blink, which don't interact with Astral Projection or Astral Caravan

>>93253902
Well I confirmed groomer, not pedo.

>>93253944
I mean... that's technically correct I guess?

>>93253971
I'm almost sure the DMG or the Manual of the Planes has Astral-only as default, with a sidebar saying that you could use the older cosmology if you prefer.

>>93253959
>(to increase the power of the crystal sphere maybe? I dunno why)
Ever played a crafting game like minecraft anon? A lot of the time, the big resource intensive projects have precisely zero direct benefit to you, but they're a cool enough idea that Autistically focusing on completing it is fun. That's how I imagine the projects of most gods are like, they have unlimited cosmic power and they're going to use all of it to build the giant gold-block penis of their dreams.

>>93253959 contd.
I will grant you, everyone does fuck too indiscriminately in the Forgotten Realms though. Dirty hippie just couldn't keep his swinger habits from leaking into his writing. When I'm running a game with it, that's the part that goes out the door, and my Mystra won't be a bisexual tinder swiping hookup gangbanger, and I'll just keep her as an autistic magic engineering god.

>>93253972
Can one groom an adult? I thought grooming required you to be training kids to be your sex partner, and then Pedo came down to whether or not you acted on it before they were adults.

>>93253984
MotP uses the great wheel. You're misremembering.

>>93254016
Yes, You can also groom mentally handycapped people. To gods, who in terms of stats are in the high double digits for modifiers, All mortals are pretty much mentally handycapped.

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>>93253984
Eh, sorry man that's just not the case.
It's codified into the spell rules even if you discount setting and lore info.

Granted Pic (from MoP) isn't very well explained without the accompanied text, but it's unchanged. The manual of the planes isn't exactly crystal clear. Because right at the start of the book it starts throws a whole bunch of alternate ways you can run "your" Mutliverse, but the default remains the same. The only difference being the Plane of Shadows got promoted (yet again)

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>>93254047
>>93253984
Ed did try and reinvent his cosmology with the World Tree, but that was exclusively to Forgotten Realms during 3.0, and promptly dropped when 3.5 rolled around.
It didn't really talk about Ethereal or astral one way or another.

>>93253990
Ehh, that's mostly gods who don't know what they are doing. Tiamat for example has a very clear purpose and was following through on it even while imprisoned.

>>93253539
Athas needs to stay locked the fuck up, other wise these shits >>93248247 get access to defiler magic and levels in athasian dragon.

>>93254034
>handicapped people
okay fair concession.

>Relative difference between God and mortal stats
Diplomancy mind control isn't really supported in the fiction, it's just a bizarre quirk of badly written 3e skill mechanics. in-fiction, if you aren't using actual compulsion magic you can't just make people think what you want. Do I think the Elminster Mystra relationship is healthy? No. But do I think it was mind control/brainwashing, let alone of a 'handicapped' person? Also No.

>>93254168
>Diplomancy mind control isn't really supported in the fiction
This is the one case where this makes sense though. A od being so good at a mundane skill that it becomes equal to magic is absolutely believable.

>>93254162
>Beholder Mage Athasian Dragon
Athas must die so that the multiverse may live.

>>93254192
Sure. But when she tried to pick up Manshoon, he laughed at her and told her to fuck herself. So, she definitely doesn't have mind-controlling-levels of cosmically good charm skills. to my knowledge there's no hint that Mystra fucks Khelben either, despite him being her chosen as well.

I think the more likely explanation is that Elminster is just a masochistic simp for his booty calling flakey swinger dommy mommy.

>>93254277
>mystra does not have diplomacy as a class skill.
She really is autistic.

>>93254340
She probably has a few ranks, in her epic godlike state. Maybe 4 or 5. But certainly not "maxed class skill" quantities.

>>93253878
It's okay because it was Ed's, excuse me, Elminster's fetish.

>>93254487
Polymorphing you into a woman when you ask for a disguise may be rude, but it's not mind control. It's also a pretty decent disguise.

>>93254340
I certainly read the text that way, yeah.

>>93254016
Ok, I may have used a really loose definition.

>>93254047
>>93254072
So maybe my memory IS fucked up. I don't think I ever cared enough about FR to read about its specific cosmology.
The closest thing I found was a reference to how "the default cosmology doesn't feature a Deep Ethereal", which I'm not sure why.

>>93254594
What did you think it meant? I always thought "grooming" was a very specific crime accusation, morevor less reserved for cult leaders and pedo parents.

>>93254766 *
more or less*

>>93254766
In this case, like "converting" Elminster.

>>93254594
I thought we were just joking about Ed being a hippy boomer coomer; not litigating sexual mores.

>>93254793
Oh. Like missionaries do? Maybe. I'm trying to remember if she actually offered him lies to make him enlist. The only one I can think of is letting him believe he was in a monogamous relationship with her, as a lie of omission. I definitely see manipulative whoring girlfriend, who manipulated him into having an open relationship after the fact rather than break up with her.

I don't think missionary style 'converting' confused Jimmy whose parents just died to JehovahWitnessism is an apt comparison (likewise for the 'actual brainwashing or mind control' angle as already mentioned), for their mess of a relationship, I think he developed his unhealthy Mystra obsession more or less on his own, though I don't think she discouraged it. But I think Elminster is just a spineless submissive to his family mommy rather than having been any kind of brainwashed.

>>93254812
Oh. Ed's a boomer coomer. Sure. I don't think anyone disputes that. I was only disputing specific claims about sexual predator glorification in the novels.

>>93254850
Oh nah I meant "converting" by turning him into a girl.

>>93254861
>>93254812
Eh it's not like I'm trying to cancel Mystra's career but I totally fucking WOULD, fuck FR

>>93254894
I like Forgotten Realms, but the implicit game feels more at home in AD&D than 3.5's mechanics.

I want to like Eberron as THE 3.5 setting, but it vaguely rubs me the wrong way without being able to point to anything specific. Maybe I just need to embrace the 2000s steampunk cringekino.

>>93254929
I dunno I can accept Eberron existing if I take into account all the crazy previous settings, but I wouldn't take it for THE setting either.
It's weird, Greyhawk should be the case but them using the local gods in the PHB doesn't do it for me, either, for some reason. Or maybe it's all the weird tech they include in the PHB equipment. Or all the 2000s-style artwork. I just wanted default generic medieval fantasy for the basics.

>>93254929
>Eberron as THE 3.5 setting
Which is funny because absolutely none of the canon abilities work properly in 3.5 mechanics.

>>93254929
IMO FR makes more sense if you're not using 3.5 books outside of Core + FR books, which is how I always ran it. "Complete ___" was as GM-Discretion as Dragon Magazine or stuff for other settings. But I will grant you, it's still a higher power level than suggested by the novels, in terms of spellcasting staying power, ease of resurrection magic, and a few other things. 3e definitely juiced up the character power level.

>>93254981
Can you elaborate?

>>93254980
I wonder what a setting built around some of the implicit elements of SRD Core (XPH, my beloved) would look like, while still being thematically evocative.