What's the best/coolest gaze attack from a monster? I know 3.x/PF best but any valid system for the thread is welcome. Sell me on something nutty and not just 'it looked at you and you got scared'.

>>93942352
I haven't used a lot of those, beyond beholders and beholderkin eye beams. I bet there are some spells that would make for fun gaze attacks and the like.

>>93942352
The antimagic cone on beholders eye
It's probably the only time you actually pay attention to what direction a monster is facing in 3e
One of the most dynamic antimagic effects, and antimagic is kind of rare in general
It's just so fun and unique

>>93942352
Homebrew, but at one point I was planning on using a monster who had Cloud Mind as an effect on gaze.

I saw guidelines a couple months back but I forgot what they were, I'm hoping one of you guys can help me out. Converting GURPS Damage to 3.x d20. Someone had a clear ratio with reasons behind it, and it made sense. I want to port over a GURPS subsystem to improve my d20 games (inventing) and I'm not clear on how I should be practically converting 2d damage for an explosion or accident with the prototype. I assume 2d = 2d6 is not the right conversion ratio from GURPS >> D&D math scaling.

Hopefully the guy familiar with both who made that post (or someone like him) sees this and is able to repeat the conversion number

Thread-Game Idea:
We make a class (base class or PrC).
We use Eclipse to rough out a chassis and estimate the class balance.
Could be PF1 based or 3.5 compatible. Whatever people prefer.

I dunno what theme the class should be, I'm open to suggestions.

Would that be fun? Or no.

>>93942352
I remember this one guy who stacked metamagic on a permanent detect magic with the help of an incantatrix to use as a head cannon. It's not technically a gaze attack, and isn't an out-of-the-box option, but it was certainly nutty.

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>>93946342
It's a cool idea but be warned

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>>93947385
>There will be blood
What's so contentious about building a class?

>>93947645
>>93947385
>>93946342
What do you guys want to make?

> T3 Ninja?
> a T3 'Magus' based on Ancient Magus bride?
> T3 Fighter / Ranger / Paladin?
> Something Else entirely?

>>93947645
>What's so contentious about [3.5/PF1e]?
EVERYTHING
>>93947886
My vote is on a T3 Ninja but anything goes

T3 ninja would just be 3e ninja with UMaD and maybe tying Ki to something more generous than /day
>>93946342
I don't understand the idea. Are you making the class in eclipse, or making a class in 3e and then trying to break it down in a point buy system, or what?

Make a T3 spellfire class

>>93947983
If we want to do Ninja, we have some good shit to start with. The author reverse engineered 4 different takes on Ninja and then spitballed some ideas on what he would do to make it catch up better.

>>93942002

For people looking to join in, you wouldn't need volume 2, volume 2 is all example builds and whatnot. So just the shareware book should do it.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/51255/eclipse-the-codex-persona-shareware

Looking at outside influences, I always thought FFT had some fun stuff in a similar vein.
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Ninja_(Tactics)
> Dual Wields
> Shuriken and magic bombs
> A reaction ability where they become invisible
>A Walk-on-water ability.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Monk_(Tactics)
> Unarmed-focus.
> Some wuxia-esque martial arts techniques. Wave Fist might be a bit too monk-like, but Secret Fist could be good.
>Hamedo is good too. A counter-attqack where you make your attack first and can prevent your opponent from attacking.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Assassin_(Tactics)
>Paralysis
>Petrify
>Save or Die
Could have this be pressure point techniques or poisons or similar.

>>93948030
>I don't understand the idea
>Are you making the class in eclipse, or making a class in 3e and then trying to break it down in a point buy system, or what?
Eclipse is a point buy system, designed to also work alongside classes. The default isn't freeform point buy like GURPS, but for the player to build-a-class. All the WotC and Paizo base-classes have been deconstructed, so you have per-level and 20-level point budgets if you're trying to match either 3.5 or PF1, with PF1 having an additional template on top that gives a point break on skills to your budget. Not saying it's perfect, but it would be a way to eyeball the right power level before testing it, and not get a chumpy T5 class by accident.

>T3 spellfire class
I've never seen anyone use Spellfire Adept. Terrible?

How would you stat a Plasma Elemental?

>>93948107
>https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Monk_(Tactics)
I don't get what you want from these

>>93948107
Spellfire Wielder (the feat) is pretty strong. It gives you a permanent Rod of Absorption effect, so you're borderline completely immune to single target spells.
Spellfire Channeler (the PrC) is ass until level 5 and to make it really function you need to scum custom magic items, at which point just UMaD the magic items.

The twofold reasons nobody takes Spellfire Wielder are because it's a
>Acquiring this feat requires the approval of the DM.
and because it's a reactive defense that doesn't work on the actually dangerous magics that target an area.

>>93948374
I tried to specialize in Spellfire Wielder at one time. It looks strong on paper but you have to ready an action to capture the energy in combat, which could be spend doing anything else and if the enemy doesn't cast a spell at you then you wasted a turn.

>>93948432
Exactly why readied actions suck so much. If it's too exacting, you hand control over to whoever you readied against.

>>93948446
I will say that it's super funny to put on a character you wouldn't expect to have any blasting potential. There's no limit on how many levels you can spend in one shot, and you can store as many levels as your Con score, not Con modifier. So if a tanked up Barbarian takes it, you can get a pretty silly "finger gun" moment.

Spellfire's cool to have in your character's back pocket as a wildcard, but only really if you've got party members to charge you up on a regular basis and aren't relying on it as your main thing.

>>93948432
Does the action count as a counterspell? Because if so, there are ways to get countespell feat you use without preparing.

>Reactive Counterspell [General] (Magic of Faerûn)
>You can react quickly to counterspells cast by opponents.
>Prerequisites: Improved Initiative (PH) , Improved Counterspell,
>Benefit: Once per round, you can counterspell an opponent's spell even if you have not readied an action to do so. This counterspell action takes the place of your regular action for the round. You can't use this feat when flatfooted.
.Normal: Without this feat, you must ready an action each round you wish to use a counterspell (see the Player's Handbook, page 152).

>>93948572
It's not a counterspell. It operates as though the character were a living Rod of Absorbtion.

"Persons gifted with the spellfire ability can do amazing things, dependent upon their skill, talent, and the amount of magical energy they have within them at the time. In general, spellfire can be used to heal, create blasts of destructive fire, or absorb magical effects it contacts, although the exact effects vary by circumstance and user. Talented wielders can release multiple blasts at once or even fly using the ability.

A spellfire wielder can ready an action to absorb spells targeted at her as if she were a rod of absorption. She gets one level of spellfire energy for every spell level absorbed and can store a number of spellfire energy levels equal to her Constitution score.

As a standard action, she may expend these spellfire energy levels as a ranged touch attack (maximum range 400 feet), dealing 1d6 points of spellfire damage per level expended (Reflex half DC 20). Spellfire damage is half fire damage and half raw magical power, just like the damage of a flame strike spell is half fire and half divine energy. Creatures with immunity, resistance, or protection against fire apply these effects to half the damage.

A spellfire wielder can also heal a target by touch, restoring 2 hit points per spellfire energy level expended for this purpose.

Unlike most supernatural abilities, spellfire is affected by spells and magic items that affect spell-like abilities, such as a rod of absorption or a rod of negation (if pointed at the manifestation rather than the wielder). It can be thwarted or counterspelled by dispel magic, and theoretically a spellfire wielder could counterspell another's spellfire. However, spellfire is a supernatural ability and does not provoke an attack of opportunity when used, nor is it subject to spell resistance."

Rod of Absorbtion rules: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rod_of_Absorption

>>93948242
Inspiration for the sorts of combat abilities might be appropriate for a ninja class. That's it.

>>93948374
>>93948432
I see. So overhauling Spellfire Channeler into something worth using would be a bit of an ordeal. I read the Spellfire novel, years ago. IIRC having it as a natural ability got in the way of her learning normal magic. Meanwhile the Chosen of Mystra could learn to wield spellfire, but it took a lot of effort in some way or another. I don't remember much more about it than that though.

>>93948673
I don't know about Spellfire Channeler, but Spellfire Wielder can be 80% shaped up with just a few changes to buff out the early 3e jank.

1) You can still ready an action to absorb, but you can alternatively take an Immediate action to intercept an incoming spell as it's cast.
2) It's a primal fundamental underlying magic, so it should explicitly work on spells, warlock incantations, psionic powers, Supernatural Abilities, everything with a CL/ML.
3) Your maximum levels stored is your Con score plus half your Hit Die, so it doesn't remain a shallow puddle for non-meatheads.
4) The damage is pure magical instead of half cut with fire. Maybe say it ignites a target on crit or something. Fire is too common a resist.
5) The attack currently requires a ranged touch attack but also offers a save to halve. Remove the save. Simple ranged touch attack.
6) The range is currently 400' flat for some reason. Improve it to standardized Long range (400' + 40' per level).

>>93948794
You'd probably want to remove the 18d6 nukes at level 1 in some way, as well.

>>93948840
I actually don't mind it. It's a single pocket nuke that you have to max out Con for that unlike every other feature in the entire game does not recharge on its own. You only get one shot with it, hit or miss, and it can only effect a single target even if you do everything right.

There's some fun to be had for a low level player to be carrying around a Noisy Cricket, so long as they can't rely on it consistently.

>>93948870
I agree with this anon >>93948840
It should be capped to something like thrice the level + 1d6, or level +4d6 or something (which is a greatsword or greataxe crit approximately).

>>93947886
>>93947983
>>93948107
>T3 Ninja

A Modular T2 Xianxia cultivator class would be pretty awesome.
>core chassis of upgrading cultivation level.
>Modular combat and utility packages.
>Cultivator Spells that run on channeled chi (which can be recovered passively / actively, not overnight)
>Pill Refining
>Forging
>Formations
>Body Cultivation
>Sword Cultivation
>etc.

A bit outside the box for D&D but it would be cool.

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More characters around a table.

>>93950066
Sounds almost like a mix between swordsage and artificer
Would you do the flying sword stuff as dancing weapons or as something closer to bloodstorm throwing?

>>93949382
[1/5]
If you can only regain its energy from non infinite sources (So only spell slots or daily use Spell-Likes) then an uncapped limit should be fine. If you add a warlock or someone with at will spell likes into the mix, it becomes silly real quickly.

My two cents would be that if it is a invorn thing using it as a bloodline would be neat something like this (Shamelessly stolen from the Complete Shadowcaster by Peacenlove)


Character Level | Minor | Intermediate | Major
1st | – | – | Spellfire (Absorb) (Su)^2
2nd | – | Spellfire (Absorb) (Su)^2 | +2 Spellcraft
3rd | – | – | Constitution +1
4th | Spellfire (Absorb) (Su)^2 | +2 Spellcraft | Increased Storage x2 (Ex)^3
5th | – | – | Spellfire Wielder Affinity +2^1
6th | – | Constitution +1 | Endurance (PHB 93)
7th | – | – | +2 on Knowledge (Arcana) checks
8th | +2 Spellcraft | Increased Storage x2 (Ex)^3 | Increased Storage x3 (Ex)^3
9th | – | – | Charisma +1
10th | – | Spellfire Wielder Affinity +2^1 | Spellfire (healing) (Su)^4
11th | – | – | Spellfire Wielder Affinity +4^1
12th | Constitution +1 | Endurance (PHB 93) | Drain Item (Sp)^5
13th | – | – | Weapon Focus (Spellfire) (PHB 102)
14th | – | +2 on Knowledge (Arcana) checks | Increased Storage x4 (Ex)^3
15th | – | – | Intelligence +1
16th | Increased Storage x2 (Ex)^3 | Increased Storage x3 (Ex)^3 | Drain permanent Item (Sp)^6
17th | – | – | Spellfire Wielder Affinity +6^1
18th | – | Charisma +1 | Increased Storage x5 (Ex)^3
19th | – | – | +2 on Concentration checks
20th | Spellfire Wielder Affinity +2^1 | Spellfire (healing) (Su)^4 | Spellfire Burst (Su)^7

1: You gain the indicated bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform checks made to interact with spellfire wielders.

>>93954259
>doing it as a bloodline
I kneel, what a brilliant idea
It's so obvious in retrospect

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>>93948840
>>93948870
>>93949382
>>93954259
The pocket nuke problem might be solvable while retaining the "Noisy Cricket" option by increasing the action cost of using Spellfire as an attack depending on how many more dice of it you're trying to deal than your own character level.

For example, the Spellfire Channeler PrC gives you the ability to use Spellfire for your iterative attacks. I think that could be built out in the base mechanics of Spellfire Wielder, with smaller doses coming out fast and big shots taking time to 'wind up'. Sort of like the Channeled Pyroburst spell. Image related.

1d4 damage - Immediate Action, Short range, costs no Spellfire Levels, but must have at least 1 stored. Cantrip equivalent.
Up to 1d6 per 3 or 4 character levels (min 1d6) - Usable as iterative attacks.
Up to 1d6 up to user's Hit Die - Standard action. More or less default behavior.
1d6 per user's Hit Die plus Con Mod - Full Round Action
Add Con mod another time per extra turn taken channeling - Additional whole-round action, can be stacked multiple times.

This makes Spellfire versatile enough to fit into the combat style of nearly any player while also making space for either desperate defenses while the party Spellfire Wielder charges their big gun or meticulously planned sniper ambushes.

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>>93954259
I am apperantly retarded and forgot i could just post a file. Ignore all of this shit here is a PDF of the whole thing

>>93953153
Hmm. Dancing weapons is *closer*.

But the low level ones are typically described as being you attune to you so you can control them telekinetically; and the high level ones are basically always intelligent flying weapons.

And the *really* strong sword cultivators sometimes learn a "sword art" where they can wield a *set* of flying swords at the same time, as a sword array. (I've seen one with a set of flying poisoned needles too).

I think the main class would need to just be the base cultivation progression, and all the spell and crafting and formation and body cultivation and whatever else would be better off as a series of abilities with a knowledge skill attached to them and a minimum number of ranks to learn the techniques.

The techniques themselves - IMO make them like spells. You get a couple baked in and if you want more go buy them or study them.

It would end up being a class that could be built many different ways - or a couple different base classes for the stats with a shared pool of class features or something.

That's my two spirit stones, anyways.

>>93954259
Do you have a not-dead link so I can see that shadowcaster?
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?60676-The-Homebrewer-s-Extended-Signature/page7&p=14190270#post14190270

>>93954259
>Spellfire Bloodline
Interesting idea.
>Bloodline
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm
So... If I understand this correctly, it's essentially a LA that you buy in stages, and get growing benefits each time? How does it play at the table? Is it okay? Is it shit?

> t. d20 PHB-Replacing Anon
What makes it so expensive to copy spellbooks in 3.5 exactly? I can understand how /learning/ spells could be expensive, and you might do a ton of arcane math to make sense of how it works so you can learn to prepare the spells (though, then it should also apply to borrowed spellbooks full of spells you've never prepared before) - but if you have a spellbook yours or not) logically it should not be hard to make a copy. Similarly, unless you are trying to copy a feature like vanishing ink, or you want the ink to be glow in the dark or some shit - regular ink should be fine. It's not a magic scroll with magic contained inside it, it's an instruction manual for a mage who has their own magic.

Is there a logical in-setting justification anyone has come across, or is it purely a game design thing?

What in-world-reason is there that a mage's academy wouldn't carve some wood blocks for 'basic spells' and mass-produce the textbooks for 1st-year wizards they want to train up, to reduce production costs?

>>93957235
It isn't.
The original text for the price of copying a spell in the 3.5 PHB is
>In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp, though many wizards jealously guard their higher level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them altogether.
It's just intellectual property laws, since you technically invent the spells you level up with.

>>93956161
Sure here you go

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7pX5JzphJ4ya3YxNl91anlmLTQ/edit?usp=sharing

>>93957235
Given there's always a Spellcraft check to decipher it and it's halved for coming from an existing spellbook, it seems that there's intermediary note-taking. This could be as little as three ounces of ink, provided there's a color-code and the cost for non-black being doubled includes the vial.

>>93957416
No, that's to match up these:
>Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.
>Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.

>>93957438
>Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell (special quills, inks, and other supplies) cost 100 gp per page
Guess it's the special quills, inks, and other supplies.

>>93956210
>So... If I understand this correctly, it's essentially a LA that you buy in stages, and get growing benefits each time?
No, it's an LA that you gain in stages (at any time that you want, you don't have to get it as early as possible nor are you required to wait; infact, you're heavily encourged to get them early) and immediately buy off when you get it.
You don't "keep the LA" at any time. You spend XP to gain a bloodline level instead of leveling up, which doesn't change your ECL. You are now a lower level character than the rest of your party, and thus gain more XP. Broadly speaking, bloodline levels are free in the long term, you'll just be some levels behind at whatever level you choose to buy them all at.
>How does it play at the table? Is it okay? Is it shit?
If properly abused it's one of the stronger things in 3.5. Particular attention should be paid to the line
>If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.
Bloodlines are instrumental to abusing two main things: one level dips into many classes with level scaling abilities, and extending short prestige classes beyond their limits.
For an example of the former, consider:
A character with four bloodline levels takes a level in rogue and a level in assassin. Since sneak attack is based on class level ("This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter"), they get the sneak attack of a level 1+4 rogue and a level 1+4 assassin - 6d6 sneak attack from two levels of dips.
For the later, and the most popular usage of bloodlines, consider Hellfire Warlock:

>>93956210
>>93957516
>A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damageplus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level
Unfortunately, this class only has 3 levels and thus only goes to 6d6. Fortunately, you can take bloodline levels, which extend this. The same four bloodline levels would give you 2d6 more blast damage and 8d6 more hellfire blast damage.

In higher CO, bloodline levels can be used like orange ioun stones for caster level shenanigans.*
>Okay, but what about for low-op tables
Naively, bloodlines are still pretty good. Being that they are essentially free, they are really good. In theory, a (custom) bloodline give you an extra feat (or equivalent) every two levels, as well as the other minor bonuses like some atributes or whatever. This would be worth it even if it was actually 3 LA for many characters. The printed bloodlines are less generous, giving you random spell-likes you didn't ask for, but many of them give either good feats (e.g. Improved Initiative, Power Attack) or feats useful for meeting prereqs (e.g. Iron Will, Alertness). A monoclass rogue with three levels in genie at 3/6/12 will generally be better than a monoclass rogue without them. Keep in mind, though he doesn't get more skill points, the bloodline rogue gets more maximum skill ranks as well.

*Objectively speaking, bloodline levels are crack for initators. Initator level works like ur-priest casterlevel (but for all classes), so your IL shoots up. And "what maneuver you can take" is a direct function of IL. This is multiclass iniators with PrC levels on luhix. There's also no orange ioun stones, so if you want to do it this is how.

>>93957511
>Guess it's the special quills, inks, and other supplies.
Yeah, that was my thought - but we have the costs for regular writing supplies. If all you're doing is copying it over, and you're not trying to camouflage your spells or make them glow in the dark, I just don't see a logical in-world reason it would be so difficult to copy.

I think I will be making it cheaper to make duplicates, and then figure out a way to price out extra for learning it.

The only reason I can see for the high price is to prevent them from running a printing press to flood the market with spellbooks, so it makes sure they are copied for the sell price - and I think I can probably come up with another way to prevent that.

I also want to add special wuxia-esque (no flying sword cultivator stuff, >>93955805) martial arts martials, and handle learning & inventing martial arts techniques through a similar mechanism. I haven't figured out exactly how I want to handle that yet, but it's an idea I'll work out once I finish up the magic section.

>>93957425
Thank you, anon. Appreciate it.

>>93957516
>which doesn't change your ECL
Ah. Thats the part I missed. I though it did, and that's why it increased your CL and whatnot.

>>93957516
That does sound pretty effective. But not so cheesy that you disallow them when you DM? It's not Persistent DMM Cleric Nightstick "all my buffs all the time forever" shenanigan levels of unreasonable?

>>93957955
>But not so cheesy that you disallow them when you DM?
Depends on the game? What the fuck are you asking?
Bloodline levels are like magic item crafting. It costs XP, which means that it doesn't cost anything, which means that there's no reason not to take them. In the time it takes a level 6 character to get to level 14, he could be level 6 and 37.5 bloodline levels instead. He could have an initiator level of 133. I don't have a problem with this in general, but it's not hard to imagine that some people might.
>It's not Persistent DMM Cleric Nightstick "all my buffs all the time forever" shenanigan levels of unreasonable?
Nothing about that is unreasonable, besides specific buffs and cleric itself.
The persistent (lol) whining about DMM persist is the biggest nogames redditor take possible. Divine power is just not that big a deal. Spells that are a big deal, like polymorph, don't need persist to be a big deal. Clerics are a pain in my ass because either we have to sit down and write up a spell list or they are broken, with no meaningful inbetween.

I'm almost certain that I've been trolled but I do salute the quality of the bait.

>>93957955
If i run them i usualy just say no to them counting for advancing class features and max skill ranks. You already gain enough from them without going full cheese with them.

>>93957416
>spell’s level × 50 gpthis is so fuck8nd dumb. Spell levels aren't linear.

>>93960041
>>spell’s level × 50 gp
this is so fuck8nd dumb. Spell levels aren't linear.
Fucked the post

When your players meet a princess or other respectable lady and their characters kiss her hand are you supposed to offer your own hand to the players as a prop? Are there any official rulings on this?

>>93960778
AFAIK you kiss noble women's hand. In devotion you kiss a churching ring and the ring of the liege for official recognitions of his power while you bow.
The woman should curtsey to salute you back.

>>93961076
*churchman not churching

>>93960043
It literally says that they usually charge more than that for higher level spells.

>>93960043
that you for making that point. I will reformulate the prices for my thing as quadratic.

So
t. Revised PHB Guy.

I'm doing away with WBL. The WBL-stuff, players will have a budget of points they can allocate to a pool that should keep up. Probably just going to use the point costs of the similar benefits from Eclipse for consistency, and then apply a corruption to make it not-stackable, and have it be an enhancement bonus, or whatever the item would have granted. I'll price it based on the assumption that 80% of your WBL is going into that.

I was thinking for mundane goods I would just lift the prices from GURPS; and consult https://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm or other medieval / renaissance prices for anything missing.
Per GURPS, $1 is the price of a loaf of bread or similarly filling food staple, so (assuming I keep the price of bread the same) that gives a clean conversion rate. $1 = 2cp. Some stuff, I will obviously have to reprice. Services and magic items.

That said: With WBL taken care of, is there anything you guys can think of that I should keep in mind for redoing the base prices of stuff?

>>93962350
I did the same.
This guy >>93961481
Raises a valid point but it's still not enough because the implication is that if you allow it, that's the price.
That would be like paying an ice-cream as an ice-cream, but a car as a laptop.

>>93962913
What did you do about the actual transcribing costs of 100 per level, did you leave them the same, because it takes 1 page per level? Or did you have it also quadratically increase in page count?

I think I probably won't make them pay that cost to access the guild (or church's) library if they're a member of the organization in good standing, but what they can access would be grouped by level, and access to the higher level libraries would be restricted for non-senior members of the organization, and doled out as rewards for exemplary deeds.
Like how sects restrict access to their libraries in Cultivation novels.

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>>93962941
Okay guys. Tell me what you think.
The words per page and ink costs were based on actual manuscripts, page costs in gurps low tech ($1 = 2cp), and the ink per page was calculated by looking up how many words people get out of calligraphy ink bottles. The ink cost is negligible, the paper cost is negligible, and all the meaningful costs are therefore in the:

Rental Fee;
Learning Cost (where you are experimenting and whatnot and probably doing many calculations as well). Casting service and item stuff just because I was already calculating them out.

Final column is my replacement for the eternal wand. More charges, but recharges slower. DMG Math + Eclipse's "Difficult" corruption for spellcasting where if it takes 1-2 weeks to come back to recover that's worth half-price. LMK if you think that's too high.

Rental fee is
=ROUNDUP(((MAX(SL,1/2)^1.75)*50)/5)*5

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>>93963632
Update
So, as mentioned, a char's "Mandatory Spending" that you need to spend on gear to keep up, I'm baking into character advancement to make life easier.

Anyways. Because of that, I estimated a 'spending money' per level table. I don't expect I will stick to it as I would for 3.5/PF1 for WBL, But I wanted to be able to eyeball "how affordable would this item be in a D&D 3.5 campaign at this level" for big ticket items like high level magics, where I can't easily lift the cost from a historical document or GURPS like I can for mundane items. I extended the table into the epic levels just to see how sensible the values look, and they do look alright. So it looks like the WBL formula I found on google was close, especially when I added rounding.

I will probably end up handing out more spending money than that per level and having fewer levelups; and encourage players to spend their money on things like training armies and fortresses and genetically engineer new magical beasts and whatnot rather than spending it all on trinkets (seems more fun to me, personally).

Per the spending money of a level 17 character in a PF1 game, they can afford to invent one brand-new 9th level spell by level 18 + rent+learn 1 more; or rent+Learn ~9 of them on the free market (if they can find them to buy). (Vs the usual D&D 3.5 price where you could afford ~76,725gp / 1350 = ~57 new 9th level spells before level 18, without dipping into your 'essential gear' funds)

Which seems more sane, at least. Updooted tables. Gonna go work on something else.

New Formulae:
Avg Inventing Price is =MAX(1/2,SL)*MinCL*6.75*65
Rental Price is =IF(MinCL<=14,(MAX(1/2,SL))*CL*0.5*100,"—")

I'll post my spending money table next in case anyone might have a use for it - it's ~ based on the PF1 WBL Table.

[I found an error in my Spending Money math and it was giving me wrong (low) vals, so my formulae for inventing and rentals were too cheap. Should be fixed]

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>>93964608
PF1-Based WBL by Formulae with Detailed Breakdown. (Polynomial Best Fit)
Formula: =MAX(100,ROUNDDOWN((-2.30392 + (2.27682*LV) - (0.6582*LV^2) + (0.20743*LV^3) - (0.01659*LV^4) + (0.000654*LV^5)) * 103*10/500)*500)
Google led me to some guy on reddit who had reverse engineered a formula
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/5cagnp/wealth_by_level_formula/

Plugged it in and compared it with the actual table, was very close. Added rounding, even closer.

Anyone here seen an attempt at converting the splatbook subsystems to Eclipse, or a pass compensating for the differentials behind Tiering given the developers' opinion was "sounds like a dumbass or asshole issue" and stuck to reverse-engineering the official content?

>>93967205
>Sybsystems
Which subsystems in particular?

>Tiers
The developer stuck to backwards compatibility with 3.5, which makes sense given what the project was and that it came out in '07. But even in that context, the worse tiered classes *mostly* come to lower point values, giving you a whole bunch of leftover points. Fighter comes out with another 53 points leftover (451 / 504). That 53 points could be spent efficiently to boost the Fighter's tier.

On the wizard side specifically - in a conversation about why he views sorcerer as having better casting than Wizard, he talks about wizards needing to pay for multiple spellbooks and safe storage and that their spellvookb are a target for theft and making them not a target is choosing choosing to houserule-buff wizards. IE a very AD&D take.

If you want to rebuild unfocused grab-bag classes like monk to suck less, you can do like his newer Ninja revision where the powers are built using Mana + Reality Editing. You might also convert wlternate ability arrays to Eclipse from GURPS to some stuff. If you're not allowing 3.5 classes, bumping up the cost of spell progressions (or slots) is also an option.

I've been referencing it a lot for my revised PHB, though I'm moving away from hard classes towards starting packages and themed buffets of abilities the players will pick from via point buy.

It's not quite what you asked for but hopefully should point you in the right direction. Is that helpful at all?

>>93967447
>Which subsystems in particular?
Pretty much any of them, though Meldshaping and Initiating would likely be especially good targets given the OGL conversions to PF1e. It's rather important if you want to work with such given how many pile on lists of options, hot-swaps that don't seem to have clear Eclipse functions for, and an abundance of actual no-daily-limit abilities.

>The developer stuck to backwards compatibility with 3.5, which makes sense given what the project was and that it came out in '07
Emphasis on "differentials behind". The casters still scale every slot they have by CL while gaining more of higher levels, meaning you pay a linear amount of CP for the same slots*CL*SL daily output where most of the Special Abilities require you pay separately for an exponential cost for similarly exponential effect.

>>93968071
>Slots.
>Linear
Oh. He actually broke down how spell progressions are built on his blog recently. It's not linear. It's based on adding up all of the spell levels, And then adding up all the CLs, and then it gets a cost break because you have to follow a rigid progression and another cost break for the ones with a wimpy list (like Ranger). And CL also gets a coat break for being locked to that one progression rather than being just "CL" for any list.
https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2022/10/28/eclipse-building-spell-progressions/

He pays attention to how much a class costs over 20 levels and doesn't pay so much attention to what the cost at each level is, because Wizards didn't when they made them. a couple of 1st level spells and cantrips is much less good than a new 9th level slot. But if you're freeforming it you can make players buy slots a la carte. That's what I'm doing.

>Initiating.
I'll dig around a bit later and see if I can find them pre-statted.
But taking a crack at it now, Initiating is probably some more expensive variant on Mana + Rite of Chi with limited Reality Editing. Making them recover so fast is the part I don't know exactly how to do at the moment. His Ninja build shows how to do mana powers though. Then like with the spell levels you would give it the maneuvers a price cut for being in rigid slots. Build it as one big package, and divide the cost evenly over 20 levels, same as a spell progression.

I'm not big on initiating personally. I don't like encounter powers. But it should be doable.

https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2018/12/06/d20-ninja-and-eclipse-part-ii-the-complete-adventurer-and-pathfinder-ninjas/

>Meldshaping
Not sure about Meldshaping. I'll look into it later.

>>93968071
>>93969796
Actually, instead of limited reality editing, you could build it as a spell progression. Main thing you'll need to do is figure out how to map the maneuvers to spell levels. I would use the PF1 Ultimate Magic spell design rules for that, but the guidelines in Tome and Blood could work too. I think he uses his magic book Practical Enchanter to assign them to levels, but IMO it's a bit too rough around the edges.

Again its making it have such a high refresh rate on the slots I'm not sure how to price out. I'd have to look for an example of him building encounter powers.

>>93967447
>>93969796
Encounter Powers
https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2019/03/23/eclipse-d20-power-packages-the-skirmisher-ranger-and-the-nightmare-kingdom/
https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2018/06/11/literary-world-laws-in-eclipse-part-two-empowering-tropes/


And here's one where he mentions tome of battle specifically.
https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2024/05/09/eclipse-d20-kartikeya-level-six-vedic-warrior/

I'll dig more later when I can access my PC. But Initiator maneuvers should be very doable, and his blog is very helpful for figuring out how to use the main book, which can be a little obtuse / byzantine.

>>93968071
>Most of the Special Abilities require you pay separately for an exponential cost for similarly exponential effect.
I've noticed that on his blog he uses Mana for basically every pool of abilities, rather than the a LA carte conversions of stuff like rage, especially when they're presented as some kind of array of limited use abilities. You can definitely build things a bit more points efficiently different ways, and Mana is up there.

In a few builds he uses a gimmick with innate magic items, and that works out to be too cheesy IMO.

This conversation about pricing casting reminds me of the AD&D UA where the point buy you were spending was xp cost per level

>>93962832
Keep in mind you will probably have to change all the treasure rewards based on EL, as well as the tax that are the standard items (Ring of Protection, Vest of Resistance, Amulet of Natural Armor, Magic Weapons, Magic Armor, and Stat Boosting gear), are you using the rules for items in the Magic Item Compendium or just base 3.5 by the way?

>>93975967
>Treasure Rewards by EL
Yeah, cut them to 25%, realistically. But I think I will be doing more of a Shadowrun style "you're hired to do a job here's what it pays" alongside also giving a bunch of stuff to spend money on that are not combat adventuring items they can carry. Also, PCs won't have the staying power they do in normal 3.5. A bit fewer uses, and they'll take several days to recover, not a short nap (so there's less pressure for me to shoehorn in lots of encounters per day).

>Tax items
Remove the essential enchantments, make them more rare, yeah. Magic items will end up being more of the "fun jank, utility, and spell in a can item" variety.

>MIC
Just a subset of the DMG to start. Other stuff will get added on a case by case basis. Charges per day will also take a nerf across the board.

>>93976679
That's part of why I want to move the "tax" items into something you advance like as you gain HD. I'd like to shift the focus a bit to more exploration / monster ranching / upgrading their home base / vehicles / equipping armies, and away from being all about grid combat, for more varied gameplay. So taking all the expensive combat staples out of the magic item economy should free them up to branch out into other stuff (and thus I'll likely end up paying out more than the 25%, but the 25% will be the minimum I aim for).

I've been reading some of the d20 Conan books for the lore and class features. Is there a big jump between 1st and 2nd edition? And are any of the adventure modules particularly good?

>>93981364
As far as I remember, the second edition is 1:1 compatible with the first. The 2e core book has some features from the 1e sourcebooks added, but otherwise it's the same game.

>>93981364
Its a compilation + errata. Fewer changes than 3.0 to 3.5.

>>93940576
>What's something you wish(ed) 3.x d20 had, from another system, and have you tried converting it over?
armor as DR, like fantasycraft
and no, its too big a change

>>93942352
PF has a spell that grants a burning gaze; it ignites enemies

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Link
Elf Fighter (Hit & Run) 12
Str 12, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, cha 8
Balance 5, Climb 15, Handle Animal 12, Jump 15, Ride 13, Swim 15
Weapon Finesse, Longsword Focus, Quick Draw, Dodge, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Longsword Specialization, Longsword Mastery, Longsword Grandmastery, Bow Focus, Pointblank Shot, Rapid Shot

quick change shield from heavy to buckler or back
drop sword and it teleports to scabbard (bow too?)
pegasus boots (expeditious retreat when running)
gloves (+4 str + large when lifting/pushing/dragging)
-mitt (+8 str + huge?)
pendant of courage (aura of courage? prot from fear?)

>made with my houserules, so most feats are a bit different
>also he can finesse a longsword, because he can

>>93982338
>PF has a spell that grants a burning gaze; it ignites enemies
This reminds me that 3.5 FR has a cast in stone druid spell.
It's level 9 tho

>>93982359
>>also he can finesse a longsword, because he can
Dungeon #128, page 44. Also, Pathfinder has an item called the effortless lace you may wish to backport; it's a relatively cheap magic ribbon that makes a weapon act as though it were a light weapon for accounting penalties and allows you to wield it with finesse.

>>93982338
>armor as DR, like fantasycraft
>and no, its too big a change
Me too. I consider it from time to time, and then I end up not doing it. Though my point of Reference for it being good is Conan, not FC.

What would be the appeal of armor-as-DR? To make it useless at higher levels?

>>93991961
It makes it far better for holding up against "underleveled" enemies if you do it properly by having the DR value be per-AC. Though I'd split the difference with it being a gradual defense versus "Touch" AC as hard miss, burning Power Attack into the basic attack dynamics.

>>93991961
Its useful at all levels. DR/—.
and then Dodge & Parry scores per class.
It works great in Conan.
its just too much work to add to 3.0/5/PF.

>>93992019
>It makes it far better for holding up against "underleveled" enemies if you do it properly by having the DR value be per-AC.
So what's the explicit goal then, just to mitigate autohit-on-20s?
You could make DR a function of how much your flatfooted overshoots to-hit+20 without needing to worry about it meaningfully changing normal combat dynamics.

>>93992068
Is conan a vitality point system like the other d20s that have build-in base-AC-bonuses?
>Its useful at all levels. DR/—.
I don't see how it can be. Damage is too high and too variable in 3e, there isn't really a point where any appreciable amount of damage reduction against people with high damage per hit isn't going to make you completely immune to everyone else. AC has the same problem but to-hit tends to vary less than damage per hit, especially within the same level.
Compare Pit Fiend/Ancient Green Dragon/Titan:
>highest average damage 22, mostly lower, CR 20
>highest average damage 28.5, mostly lower, CR21
>highest average damage 41, same damage on every attack, CR21
This is aside from the fact that armor-as-DR isn't realistic

>>93992192
Conan is not a vitality point system, but IIRC (its been a decade since I played it) HP cap out at level 10, and you make death by massive damage fort save or die rolls if a hit does 20+, not 50+.
(there are probably also ways in Conan to bypass the DR. Maybe on Critsvor something - as mentioned it's been a long time. But I recall it working well, and we all liked its combat.

>not realistic
>That's bait.

For my blood, I'd rather have a system where AC works as it is but armor also gives some stacking DR on top, probably scaling with the total effective enhancement bonus.
So a +3 Blurring, Greater full plate (total enhn bonus 5) would give some base DR/- from being a full plate + (2+3) * 2 or something of the sort.
Or hell, have the multiplier per enhancement bonus be the scaling factor for each type of armor.
Light gives DR 1 + (1 * enh bonus), medium gives DR 3 + (2 * enh bonus), heavy gives DR 5 + (3 * enh bonus), or whatever. I'm sure the numbers can be tweaked to make sense throught all the 20 levels, or to at least be relevant and worth investing in.

>>93992068
>its just too much work to add to 3.0/5/PF.
It is tho?

>>93992552
I am thinking about something similar. I think in fact it could be way less, even a base like yours (with a few exceptions +/- 1 in the same category) plus the enhancement., or twice it!
It does add up nicely during the adventure, as people noticed with the barbarian sometimes - in fact, the first thing I would ask is wether the above is supposed to stack with the barbarian DR.

>>93993468
>>93992552
Forgot - the biggest issue I would observe would be to implement the same system on monsters, because shortly people would wonder why the scales of a dragon don't do the same.
There was an Epic feat (3/- stackable) in the Draconomicon (3.5) exactly for this reason.

>>93992354
>That's bait.
It's not. Damaging someone in full plate with a slashing weapon would mostly be about finding gaps in the armor just like it is irl and the difficulty of scoring clean blows to the head and other extremities with clear angles where you can actually produce some damage on the person is represented well by AC. Keep in mind that the armor never fails and doesn't suffer damage in the course of protecting you, and for the most part it's magical armor made of supermetals. Injuring frodo would be more about hitting him somewhere not covered by a mithril stabvest rather than pushing through the mithril, which is poorly modeled by either system.

>>93992552
Thoughts on making it Hardness instead or something similar so that it conditionally works on energy damage?
I feel like there are many convergent factors proclaiming the general superiority of mithral and am not opposed to structural improvements to heavier options since as it is "get medium armor and make it light" is pretty dominant outside of mounted characters.

>>93993482
Draconomicon epic feats are just reprints.
Monster DR/Regen/weapon effects could use a second pass though, yes, the way they are now has some odd consequences (pit fiend's nonmagical claws, for example).

>>93993231
I don't think it would be so hard on the player side. But I think I think it would be a hassle to adapt the monsters.

>>93994318
>Finding gaps
which will not be where their vitals are, limiting how much you can harm them
>Clean blows to the head
shouldn't they have a helmet on?
>Never fails.
A polearm will puncture plate. but yes, for magical super-metals I see your point.

I think the right armor as DR setup could work to model normal armor, but I take your point about adamantine plate and similar.

What would you suggest instead?

>>93995366
>shouldn't they have a helmet on?
Anon, do you think that being hit in the head is completely safe just because you have a helmet?
>which will not be where their vitals are, limiting how much you can harm them
Adventurers naturally twist and contort to prevent vital damage anyway. CdG is a critical, afterall.
Armour and/or helmets giving fortification is a pretty old idea in 3.0 anyway. But it's a non-sequitur because D&D creatures/characters are fleshblobs for the most part.
>What would you suggest instead?
I would suggest not changing it because AC is a better system with regards to how attacks/damage work in 3e.

>>93996044
>AC is better for 3e attacks / damage.
I liked the way Conan did it better, so I disagree with you there. But I do think it's too big of a change to implement easily, so I haven't bothered trying to port it over.

>>93994318
>Thoughts on making it Hardness instead
DR/Ar
Armor DR that also protects from energy attacks and can only be partially pierced by war picks pollaxes, rondels, monsters with natural weapons with similar properties

>>93991961
realism for one
makes armor better because it always does something
one of the reasons we said its too big of a change to bother with is that in 3.x damage scales pretty wildly; if we implemented armor as DR we'd have to tone down damage

>>93999375
>Realism
This Anon has never heard of an Estoc. What's the DR on a chainmail bikini Anon? After all, armor always reduces damage linearly, and no one ever targets gaps, weak points, or the flat out unarmored areas. Therefore the bikini should have just as much DR as normal chainmail I think.

>>93994318
>pit fiend's nonmagical claws
This is another reason why I miss the old 3.0 DR
"30/+3", or maybe just make it "20/+3, good or silver" - so its natural attacks are considered +3 (they are already considered evil, because it has the evil subtype).
I would make it "20/+3, good and silver" but people would sperg hard

>>94000284
>This Anon has never heard of an Estoc
Estocs, rondels, warhammer didn't penetrate 100%. An unarmored guy would be skewered by an Estoc, way more than an armored one.
Giving these weapons a penetrative power would be cool tho, while fiddly in an already fiddly game.

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>>93996044
>do you think that being hit in the head is completely safe just because you have a helmet?
With a mace or a hammer or something? No.

From a slashing weapon? Pretty much, yeah.

>>94000284
Well *OBVIOUSLY* We should implement some kind of basic hit location system to go with Armor as DR, or include a 'Gaps and Unarmored Locations' score of some kind. Maybe a d%.

So the Chainmail bikini is comparable to chainmaille (with no padding underneath), but only if you get hit in the nipple or the crotch, and otherwise it's no armor at all.

>>93992552
>Light gives DR 1 + (1 * enh bonus), medium gives DR 3 + (2 * enh bonus), heavy gives DR 5 + (3 * enh bonus), or whatever. I'm sure the numbers can be tweaked to make sense throught all the 20 levels, or to at least be relevant and worth investing in.
Probably I will do
Light: 1/-
Medium: 2/-
Heavy: 3/-
Special materials improve it, proportionally (say adamantine heavy is 6/-, adamantine medium is 4/-).
Some masterwork secret adds another 1/- stackable with above.
Then add 1x enh bonus, max 12/-

>>94002165
Do you think you'll be able to explain the fine points of distinction between a polehammer and a poleaxe after I hit you in the head with the latter?

>>94003713
NTA, but if it's the axe side then usually yes. There is of course cases of exceptional strength and poor angles, but generally speaking the transfer of energy between the axe-head and helmet are rather poor, hence it having the hammer-head on the other side.