Kharn is a pretty great guy editionPrevious thread: >>93953358 Check out here for useful links and a catalogue of relevant miniatures retailers:>/GROG/ Pastebin: https://pastebin.com/nnNqqFLnOf possible interest though not long left at time of posting: Ral Partha Europe Autumn Sale: Autumn20 for 20% off any order up until Sunday 6th October
Been ragging on Rogue Trader as a system a lot in recent threads and I thought fuck it, I thought I'd try give some examples as to why.A big one is the close combat system. Imagine if you will, an assault marine with a bolt pistol and chainsword.In RT by the main book: you have to declare a charge. If your charging model (not the whole unit) fails to make contact, they can do nothing else the whole turn. A whole unit doesn't have to charge. Models being charged may always turn to face their attacker, and can make a stand and fire or run away reaction to being charged. No Overwatch needed! Multiple weapons: whilst our typical marine here has only 1 attack on his profile, the thing of note here is he makes 1 attack with each weapon. If he had more than 1 base attack, he'd make that with each weapon, so a character with say 3 attacks would make 6 attacks if armed with two close combat weapons. But there's penalties for such a loadout, -1 for offhand and -1 for two weapons at once, and the basic to hit against an opponent of equal WS is a 5+, which is why you don't see lots of low quality troops with a pistol and a hand weapon: it's a shit combo unless you have a WS advantage. Our WS4 marine fighting a typical WS3 Ork or human is at 4 to hit normally, -1 to hit for one hand so on a 5+ for one attack and a 6+ to hit (since the modifiers stack) for the second. If he was charging at least he gets a +1 to hit so a 4+/5+ respectively. And attacking is in initiative order. Which isn't too bad but if he's going up against anyone else of WS4, then well, not so great, back to 5/6s then potentially in second round 6s/7s to hit. There's also pushback for beaten units that don't break and follow-ups retained from WHFB's system, just to add in some extra fuckery. Which is why a lot of those RT era assault marines and characters are kitted out with just a single close combat weapon and a bolter. Close combat is just a huge gamble and often a poor one even for specialists.
>>94081915Even if you have a high skill character with lots of attacks in RT, by the base book they're limited significantly so they can only fight what's directly in front of them. Yep, 90 degree arc of fire to the front even in close combat. That's why those big monsters get all those stomp/tail/bite attacks listed to give them attacks in other arcs. Which is why they came up with the system that became the one used in 2nd edition, which whilst still pretty clunky, was definitely a better close combat system than this.
I saved a few old palm trees (most of them were broken and glued with God knows what). A short and simple project. There's still a few of them left, so when I'm tired of painting minis, I'll have something else to do. And yes, I already have some forest outlines done.
>>94081915having things of equal WS not being odds even of hitting each other is bollocks of the highest order, and just means any additional modifiers also sling it too far to one side. I'd just use a different WS table to be honest.
>>94082088Good stuff, and I'm glad you made the sensible choice to mount them on to something, for some reason over the years I found that people kept trying to use them standalone and those fuckers never balanced properly for that. People too lazy to make a terrain base I guess.>>94082146It's funny in a way because that exactly what they did with revising the system for 4th edition warhammer fantasy because it was slow even for WHFB. Because that system itself isn't completely fucked, it's just not right for the kind of gameplay that RT was doing. and when they wanted 40k to work faster with 3rd edition with more mashing blobs into each other than individuals, they went back to a revised version of it.
Another of RT's not so great rules: Following fire/Sustained Fire.Base rulebook version:Select a target, roll to hit and wound as normal. If you wound, even if it's saved, you can shoot again at the same target or another one within 4 inches. You can keep on rolling as long as you keep wounding.That's not so bad if it's only something fairly basic like a shuriken catapult, heavy stubber, you're gonna need some luck to get more than a couple of shots with an average trooper with an average skill. But a lot of Following Fire weapons are not average. They're wounding most things on 2s because they're heavy bolters, plasma guns or heavy plasma guns on low power mode, all of which are common. And Characters can be equipped with heavy weapons or crew vehicles, ensuring above-average BS to gun with. Unsurprisingly that also feeds back into the problem of getting into close combat, good luck charging something that can just turn towards you and dump a 2+ to hit (since you're up close and in the open) 2+ to wound repeatedly rolling until they roll a 1 weapon at you. Swap the marine's missile launcher for a heavy bolter in the Battle at the Farm scenario to have a lot of opportunities to demonstrate how busted this can be, as the Orks don't have enough terrain on their approach to mitigate.The Battle Manual update would attempt to fix this by adding in some limitations:You get a +1 to hit the same target again, or a -1 for changing target. If you roll a 1 on second or subsequent rolls to hit, that jams the weapon. The jam has to be cleared by rolling a 4+ in a following turn where the model does nothing but fix the weapon.This a least helps limits the amount of shots to capping out as if trying to sweep across a whole squad, to hit mods are going to stack up rapidly even if blasting away with a terminator's assault cannon, and you're chancing a jam the longer you keep rolling.
Finally cracked open this bad boy
>>94084095Reprint I assume?
>>94086635YeahIt's pretty good, you can tell it's scanned kinda though. Some of the pictures seem really bleached out though, bizarrely. Not sure if that's how the original was
>>94087068>YeahI'm still jelly as fuck
Did modern scans of the Realm of Chaos reprints ever start getting passed around?I've only got the 10/15+ year old scans of the originals and in places they are really difficult to read or the scan was misaligned so cropped information. Managed to find a video of someone going through Slaves to Darkness which I used to note down stuff that had gone off the side of the scans.
>>94087382here's newer and better scans of those books, anon:https://gofile.io/d/jwJFoZ
What's your cutoff for grog? 5th edition? First 3 for sure, 4th is on the cusp
>>94087442For me 3rd is the last grog WHFB and RT is the only grog 40k.
>>94087410Oh thank you very much.
>>94087713Nice anon, not too long back I was rummaging through our storage and found some older stuff, inc. my RT copy that was my uncles.Original though, not reprint.
>>94087728Oops, was supposed to reply to>>94084095
>>94087528That's the cut off I had when I still played, with Fantasy 4-5th and 40k 2nd being the middle/second era and Fantasy 6-7th 40k 3-5th being the 3rd era. At which point I stopped playing regularly so my definitions are frozen there.Reading about the first era got me interested in wargaming, I started playing with the second era and played the most in the 3rd era.
>>94087410Am I being dense or is there only a Fantasy champion and retinue generator?I see people rolling up a 40k Realm of Chaos warband and I would love to myself
>>94088163Having a check and there's the sensei adventurer band, but for chaos:Slaves to darkness check page 231-239 for generating a Chaos Renegade (the 40k version) and their followers/The Eye of Terror section of the Lost and the Damned (p162-166) has a small section in it for generating renegade warbands and has technological weapons for them. They otherwise generate up the same as fantasy ones. 40k creatures can be generated from the Universal creatures table in the same book on rolls of 645 and above if you wanted to weight some rolls on the D1000 chart (though daemons come in just before that and you'd probably want to include those).So yeah it's in there, it's kind of buried though.
Legion Imperialis has gotten me thinking about Epic Space Marine(it uses the same rules). Is the ruleset worth learning? Obviously LI is heresy, but Epic Space Marine has lists for 40k and Xenox. My Epic Armageddon armies are actually already mostly GROG, as vintage Epic Space Marine minis are, paradoxically, the easiest to obtain, with Epic 40k in second. The silly RT era designs appeal to me.
>>94088163>>94088318There were also 2 WD articles about RoC published between the two books 1/2
>>940884192/2
>>94078959>Ral Partha Europe Autumn Sale: Autumn20 for 20% off any order up until Sunday 6th OctoberHow big is the Ral Partha Triceratops?
>>94088563Oh thanks, didn't even notice the sale when I checked the site last time.
>>94087528>RT is the only grog 40k>t. zoomie
>>94091375>noooooo you can't exclude my heckin' midhammeriiinooooooooos!!!!>everything I like has to belong in the category I think is the most prestigierino!!!!!!!!!!1>t. mad zoomie
>>94087442This question always just results in the same retarded arguments over 2nd edition so fuck it.Laserburn is the only grog 40k.
You know, we put "retro" and "oldhammer" in the op for a reason, and not just because it makes for a sweet acronym.The only dividing line that matters is 5th edition 40k is Matt Ward heresy era and can fuck right off. that the focus is roughly pre-2000 thanks to the mess where 3rd and 4th 40k blend into each other, and 6th edition Fantasy gets talked about enough elsewhere anyway so doesn't need the love here.
>>94082088Are you me?
>>94093330I keep finding more of these fuckers to use when I go dig through stuff like old bits boxes. An I literally never bought a single one. Never got the 3rd ed. starter set. Never bought them separately. I don't know how I got them. But they keep appearing.
>>94093383They were packed in with a bunch of battleforces.
>>94081915>>94081990You've successfully transcribed the roguetrader close combat system, but you've come to the wrong conclusion - This is a good CC system because fighting someone hand to hand is HARD. Speaking from personal experience having been in a fair number of fights armed and unarmed (several for passion, some for work, many more for sport) I can authoritatively say that fighting is chaotic and terrifying even if you're good at it and it takes tremendous focus (And not a little bit of luck) to deliver a decisive blow. It's very easy for two fighters to attack ferociously and not do very much of anything to eachother >>94082146 ESPECIALLY when they are of equal skill. What's important to remember is that RT is a simulationist system, and as such accurately recreates the tremendous difficulty of attacking another person face to face when they are prepared for you and ready to fight. It is successful in doing exactly what it sets out to do. That said, I too have found it can be frustrating to fight multiple rounds of combat with no damage inflicted by either side. It helps to visualize the fighters as trading blows and fencing back and forth but both successfully defending themselves. Think of how in most cinematic swordfights, the majority of the action is the clash of swords attacking and parrying, with very little blood being shed until the final climactic blow the runs the villain through and ends the fight. Use your imagination a little, RT is meant to be a narrative game on all levels, that includes personal combat not just the scenario you choose before you play.
>>94083444I'm going to argue against this one too, Following Fire can be difficult to deal with, but this is as designed. If a group of soldiers charges against a machinegun emplacement with the intention of engaging them in hand to hand combat, it's safe to assume that they'll all be killed unless they have miraculous luck. So naturally they won't do that, they'll try to circle around behind the machinegunners to flank them, or they'll creep up as close as they can without being seen and lob hand grenades into the pillbox. These are all things you can also do in RT. Additionally, it seems that you've missed the rule that "slow" weapons (which covers heavy bolters and most other following fire weapons) aren't even eligible to shoot against charging units
>>94092234The model is great but the base really fucks it for me>oversized>tactical rock>cut the tab>black rim>mushrooms???
>>94096880bruh what it looks good>oversizedit's a 32mm which all Power Armoured miniatures look good on>cut the tabWhy not?>black rimalso looks goodModern basing approaches can really bring old sculpts to life
>>94096880Golden Daemon entry rather than a tabletop model>>94095800>wrong conclusionI've been in armed fights too. The simulationist design trend of '80s game design only goes so far, and often mistakes detail of the process for accuracy of outcomes. To a ludicrous degree at points; with some taking the idea that more absurdly complex processes being more "accurate" leading to memes about certain historical games to this very day. But from a game design perspective, for something on the scale of 40k where it isn't regiments clashing, inconclusive fights are a bad thing. To quote them directly from White Dwarf 150:"We found that close combats often took several turns to resolve themselves, locking troops in close combat and placing models which specialised in close combat at a disadvantage. This threw too much emphasis onto shooting and lost the sense of close combat being a lightning-fast life and death struggle, something we felt that close combat should be all about".If nothing else you can tell it was bad to have such crap target numbers because the designers in short order got rid of them for both WHFB and 40k, and were very happy with it. There's a very good argument to be made they went far too far into such 'explosive' combats later on down the line, particularly with WHFB's later editions. But this ain't that.
>>94096880>muh goblin green
>>94087068Yeah, same as the original. Do recall that at the time each illustration and pasted up page layout would have been photographed for plates. Color balance was done by eye.At least the spine on my 2nd edition printing has held up over the years.
>>94096896So glad that 28mm bases exist. Perfect for models that hang five (ten) on 25mm but don't leave the model swimming. A patrician solution.
>>94097897You may have noticed that the designers got rid of a LOT of other things from RT as well, that doesn't mean they were right to do so. The whole shift in design philosophy after the management buyout was a mistake, and both the style and substance of the rules and figures suffered as a result.I see that you can find a quote where they defend their actions, but much the same is true of any controversial decision, their ability to find words to defend their choice doesn't make it the right one.My issue is that your breakdown of the RT rules seems bent on proving that is a bad game, when it looks more to me like you haven't actually played the game enough to learn the strategies necessary to get around the sticking points, which are designed to be intentionally difficult. Head to head combat between equally matched opponents should not be easy, it should turn into a slog unless one party can either get very lucky or produce an advantage. In order to break that stalemate you need to find an advantage over your opponent, either by being a significantly more skilled fighter, wielding deadlier weapon, capitalizing on your momentum when you push an opponent back, catching your opponent by surprise, or outnumbering him and attacking from behind, all things which work in a real fight which you can also do in RT to give you a significant advantage in close combat.Trust me, I know how to make Close Combat work in RT, I run Khorne Renegades and nothing else and I play on a regular basis
>>94097897>>94103975To extend an olive branch and keep discussion civil, If you prefer the combat in second edition, that's fine, it's certainly of a different style. I just can't stand by and hear it said that Rogue Trader is a bad system when I know it's not. It just requires you to do the legwork to make it work for you. I personally find that process enjoyable, but I can understand why others might notI'm an Oldhammer purist, I only play 1st edition for 40k and 3rd edition for fantasy, and I love the excessive d100 lists for every different piece of equipment or mutation, I like the granularity and detail.
>>94101697Yeah I need to buy some 28.5mm bases too, and basically work off eye for whether it suits more than a 25mm or 32mm
>>94096896>it's a 32mm which all Power Armoured miniatures look good onI disagree, I think models should be models instead of mini-dioramas with tactical rocks and mushrooms.>Why not?Cutting tabs is a sin against all Oldhammer.>also looks goodThe juxtaposition between the saturated style of the model and the more realistic style of the base draws attention away from the paintjob. I agree that the black rim is the correct choice on your model, which is much more desaturated and realistic looking. I do not agree it looks good on the model posted, where the base looks like it's from a different universe as the rest of the model.>>94098134>posts much more desaturated paintjobs>the base is also more desaturatedWhat did he mean by this???
>>94105423>I disagree, I think models should be models instead of mini-dioramas with tactical rocks and mushrooms.We're never going to agree it seems. But I would like to make you reconsider your position as being unnecessarily reductive and restrictive, and firstly consider as >>94097897 points out that it's a painting competition entry.On this point, nah. The miniatures come before the games, and their basing is a key element of each miniature telling its little story. And these old miniatures particularly, but all miniatures really, deserve their own chance to shine in my opinion. Rather than being reduced to "models" in your forgotten back ranks.>Cutting tabs is a sin against all Oldhammer.Fuck base tabs, who cares about them, you don't see them when the miniature is finished. Trying to make up "rules" like this, eh, that's more of a sin against Oldhammer as it lives and breathes.Oldhammer must flourish and grow and people must create. It's why I love people like Magpie and Old Lead hacking up old sculpts and making amazing new things with them and seeing cool stuff at BOYL.
>>94105502NTA but hacking up old models really does feel wrong when there won't be any more of those models coming and recasts are easily available. It doesn't help how some fags like Goldfish Blue scalps and gauges like no tomorrow. Cutting base tabs does go against the spirit since thats how you can identify the model and its authenticity if needed, since recasts are available. Personally I buy rescue models, those that are shittily painted and damaged, fix them up and try to keep them as original as possible while giving them proper paintjob. I use 3d prints and recasts to substitute missing parts when needed but do slight conversions when it feels appropriate, like adding flags. I removed tabs from old metal sisters seraphims since I thought they looked stupid at first but after trying to ge put them on acryllic rods I realized and regretted what I've done.
>>94105502>We're never going to agree it seems.I never asked for anyone to agree with me, I simply gave my own opinions on a model that was posted here.>it's a painting competition entryAny I critiqued the paintjob of the model, and it's juxtaposition to the base? Do you think this would not be part of the assessment at said painting competition?>The miniatures come before the games, and their basing is a key element of each miniature telling its little story.IN MY OPINION, a model "telling it's little story" takes away from the army looking like a cohesive whole and telling it's story as an army. This is also why I dislike modern GW sculpts with tactical rocks, random bits and debris and dynamic poses; if every model looks like he's posing for the avengers, it looks bad as a squad and worse as an army.>Oldhammer must flourish and growNo, it really doesn't. Not everything needs to change and grow and become popular. Oldhammer can just be enjoyed as it is without trying to achieve mass appeal.
>>94087410Legend, thank you anon.
>>94105502Based and BOYLpilled>>94105943Cringe
>>94106819Post models
>>94105624Couldn't a recaster just make a mould of the whole model, with the tab and everything? I don't see why that's important for identifying a model when you can just look at the old catalogue and identify the model visually. It's not like there are serial numbers on the tabs, right?
>>94108434Recasts will have mould lines where shouldn't be any, once you can spot them you can tell the difference since lot of sellers try to pass recasts as originals to get better price. Some recasters remove the tabs like BMM.
>>94109330Oh, I see. That actually makes a lot of sense, thank you for clarifying, anon. I've been making the mistake of removing the tabs on some older warhammer fantasy models so that I could use them with regular, not-slotted square bases as I never intend to sell them, but this is very useful information! Do you know if websites like Troll Trader and other similar 2nd hand retailers are reliable and don't try to sell recasts as actual models? That's where I've been getting all of my 3rd ed whfb/realm of chaos-era models.
>>94109387Troll Trader has a LOT of recasts on sale, I'm not sure if they do it on purpose since they do advertise themselves as selling only legit models. I follow that site everyday and sometimes you can see the huge wave of rare metal models and upon closer inspection you can see how they have that extra flash in weird places. Some try to pass them by buying legit old bases, applying shitty paintjob and doing paint removal on them to make them look more authentic.
>>94109387>>94109454There was some asshat on ebay trying to profit by selling recasts of johnnys due /wip/ having interest in it. Some bought it even with a huge mark up just to have one.
>>94104033As someone who has played a lot of systems over the years, I'll maintain that RT is a dog's dinner of a game system. It has an absolutely massive amount of charm to it, it was bursting full of ideas, but it was incredibly unrefined and mechanically just messy. It's like an old beater of a car; yeah, you can with work manage to make it do its thing, and it can be fun in doing so, and in many ways that old beater beats the ever-loving shit out of the modern option (because the modern option has really gone to shit in remarkable ways), but it's still ultimately an old beater. As an aside I don't even think the 2nd edition system is particularly good. Or rather it's good for a game on the scale of Necromunda and Gorkamorka where everything is roughly on similar scales of capability, but RT's as a foundation was better for adjustment going forward. 2nd's has problems with stuff like scaling; multiple combats might not drag out so much over turns but they take too much processing time, the criticals/fumbles thing slightly favours fumbles more than criticals with more attacks, the parry rule makes swords and sword types arguably unfairly better for their cost than other weapons and leads to optimal combinations with cheap sword/high strength other weapon which couples with that you can put all your hits onto your one good weapon (fixed in necromunda/gorkamorka but then, not so many power fists there eh)...Also Renegade Scout's to bring it since people might up is only OK, it's quick but it is bland as it lacks that comparative skill thing that I think is still required at the scale, because without that skill being brought into it, there's no sense that the people involved in a fight are matching up and facing off so much as just going at it. I think it's up for revision though.
>>94110581 cont.I think my ideal would look more like:RT's system with overwatch rather than automatic charge reactions and no need for facings (facing in general just lead to problems and fuckery and is more hassle than its worth when not playing on a grid or angular bases (sometimes I wonder what it'd be like if 40k had started out with hex bases as the standard instead of circles, you can do a lot with a good hex base even when off the grid). Also some accounting for when things can't be quite in base contact like fighting across a barrier so maybe a combat radius instead of a hard base-to-base, though that would need controlling and checking because it could lead to unintended consequences like combat characters/monsters being able to fight too many people too well, or getting ganged up on too easy. Without penalties for extra weapons, 4+ to hit equal skill and then scaling from there. Attacks stat goes on one weapon, additional weapons give +1 attack and roll separately, fighting is in initiative order with maybe bonuses/penalties for charging/defending an obstacle/using a heavy weapon and so on. No fussing with pushback.
>>94115714Do you have the Salty Porridge Forever one?
>>94116161
>>94116200Nice, thank you
Asked in WIP and figured I'd ask here.I've got a skeleton king on horseback miniature from Wargames Foundry (sister webstore is Warmongerminiatures which has a lot of oldhammer looking fantasy minis) and I was not expecting it to be broken up like this for assembly: No matter what there will always be gaps.I've decided to have the integrated base be fully connected via superglue and to fill in the gaps at the top of the undead steed.I have greenstuff for the project, and I do have ArmyPainter greenstuff sculpting tools and a jar of water to keep my fingers and tools wet.Is there anything else I should do/have to be ready for this?Does greenstuff have enough of an adhesive nature that it can be trusted to fill in gaps that at most look like they are 1.5mm wide?
>>94121606I wouldn't trust greenstuff. I recommend milliput, its softer and sandable.
>>94121606Anon, yes, green stuff is perfectly fine for the task at hand.
>>94121606Yes.Greenstuff or milliput are both fine for gap filling. Milliput is more granular in texture to work, will set harder and is very good for plugging out big holes in stuff too and helping to add weight to bases. Greenstuff will be more flexible and stretchy and has a longer working time (to the point that it's better to let it sit for a bit first if doing detail work as it can be a bit too soft to start). You can actually mix them together as well to get a bit of the properties of both, which if you're ever trying to clone parts via oyumaru moulds is a very handy thing.It's handy to have both in your tool set anyway to make use of as required. For a horse either way you might want to follow the method of wanting to roll the putty out into a strip, put said strip over the gap, push it down and then cut the excess off, rather than trying to fill the gap then put parts together or push in lots of smaller parts into the gap. You will need a surprisingly small amount.
>>94116200I take these are the evil albioners from McDeath?
>>94078959Why does Kharn have giant mustache?
>>94123543He's Italian.
>>94123509Yes, although really just McDeath and McWrecker are actually particularly evil.
Anons how would you implement some of the newer squad loadouts into 3rd edition 40? mainly stuff like the all flamer basic marine squads or all plasma ones. asking because I'm trying to start a 3rd community in my area and convincing people to replace their new Primaris marines with old firstborn models which are harder to find just to play 3rd isn't really doable,so I'm trying to put new units in 3rd as a stopgap until people are invested enough to buy the proper old stuff
I find recasts extremely useful for spare parts, lot easier to cut up resin for conversion, saves subjecting an original model to my unskilled butchery too. If its just replacing a weapon though that's easy, helps that this Techmarine is so common.
>>94126348>How do I mix oil and water?
>>94123050This is the way. Mixing putties is the best. For filling thin gaps, blending, or filling pinholes, liquid greenstuff (just a hard setting acrylic resin) is also viable. And as much as I hate to support GSW, theirs is better than GW's (clumps too easy) or Vallejo's (too soft, adheres the worst). For wide joins that you are going to superglue, SSG (baking soda and superglue) is quite nice too. Sets super fast and hard. However, takes some practice. Amazeballs for slotta bases and tabs.
>>94128010Add an emulsifier such as dish soap
>>94126348Those would be quite expensive squads. Maybe treat them as Devastator squads with double the points costs and the same limitations. Game was never balanced but having 4-9 flamers or 4-9 plasma in a troops slot is ridiculous. Disclaimer: I know nothing about Primaris. Surely they still have regular bolter squads available.
>>94104033sick banner
Morning lads, any ID on this guyMy hunch says Citadel Lord of the Rings the first time around in the 80s
>>94130740I think you forgot something, anon.
>>94130740>>94130798Bollocks I did
>>94087410Awesome, saved. Thanks anon.
>>94083444>This a least helps limits the amount of shots to capping out as if trying to sweep across a whole squad,So GW always implemented shit OP rules to then over-nerf them.Interesting
>>94130839>>94130740I had a look, I don't think he's GW LotR. You might have to lift him off that penny and check the tab. But being on a blob not a slottabase means if he is Citadel he's dating to about '86 or earlier. He looks pretty good though so I do think mid-80s.
>>94130839Ral Partha.
Hey /grog/s, I'm stopping by from the Mutant Chronicles thread. Do any of your old beards know how much of a competition there was, if any, between Mutant Chronicles Warzone and Warhammer 40,000? I've been playing 1st Ed Mutant Chronicles and 3rd 40K, so I'm curious about whether or not there was history between the two.Thanks guys.
>>94135828There's a mutant chronicles thread?
>>94135909>>94115718
>>94135927neato
>>94135828BattleTech was absolutely obliterating 40k in the US market until about 1996. As in, there was no contest at all on which one was the bigger moneymaker. There was some very active competition between WZ1e and 40k2e, I actually got started in 28mm with Warzone back in the late 1990s. The local stores had pretty much the whole line. Although at the time that was something like 50 SKUs and 4 books for WZ and about 100 SKUs and 6 books for 40k, and stores rarely had all of any given army. GW couldn't force people to have a set amount of shelf space for their shit yet either, so they did a LOT of mail-order sales and special-order to the store. GW spent huge amounts of money and time getting casting set up in the States to avoid duties, while trying to push tournaments with limited success. Both Warzone/MC and GW were trying to emulate the FASA model with integrated video games, fiction, collectible card games, and a hobby magazine. GW made better choices with the video games. They ditched the CCG early before the Pokemon Crash, and managed to avoid getting suckered into TV/Movies . Also they didn't go for a "living timeline" like Legend of the Five Rings or Battletech, which gave them a lot more space to backfill stuff and less pressure to push annual events or justify errata and such with fiction. GW was also a lot more successful pushing the 40k 3e boxed set and system simplification than Heartbreaker was with WZ2. Basically GW lucked the fuck out, and their slightly larger cash reserves and integrated business model got them through a couple of rough patches that killed or severely wounded pretty much everyone else.
>>94135427That reminds me that I need to dig through the Ral Partha Legacy site. A bunch of stuff has been put up and I need more weird old sculpts.
>>94136745> Also they didn't go for a "living timeline" like Legend of the Five Rings or Battletech, which gave them a lot more space to backfill stuff and less pressure to push annual events or justify errata and such with fiction.My my, how the turn tables eh.
>>94121965>>94122028>>94123050>>94128029Thanks anons! I'll give it a shot with greenstuff as that's what I have on hand at the moment.
How many points was the typical game of 4/5th edition fantasy?
>>94139386about 2k
>>94139395Bugger
>>94140343
>>94140346
>>94140352
>>94140357
>>94140360
>>94139386half your points were in your characters though, much smaller model count.
>>941394022000 points could be very small depending on the race and what units you picked. You can spend up to 50% of the points on characters, and after that even traditionally "horde" armies like Orcs and Goblins could just focus on things like boar riders, trolls, ogres, and giants.
>>94136745Thanks for the lesson man
>>94140343I love how everything has been there from the start. Laserburn, Combat 3000, Reaper, the seeds that grew some serious fruit.
I just realize that those Rogue Trader and Realm of Chaos reprint books are printed in China. We all know what chinese people think about copyrights. You guys think it is possible to track down the exact print shop where they where made, and maybe ask them to print them again wihout G-Dubs knowlage and sell at lower price and wider availability?Or maybe the already did that and its on Temu or Aliexpress?
>>94141578I flipped out when I saw the tiny "made in china" on the back of the MTO Rogue Trader reprint. A serious dick move on GW's part. Can't post record profits if we support UK Businesses!Good thing my original copy is still good.
if i wanted a classic dread which one is the best? i wasn't aware that the plastic regular one was older that the black reach one. Also, how does the old metal one compare to the other ones in terms of size?
>>94143673All the classic boxdreads are about the same size. For my money the 4th ed plastic one is the best, since it's more customisable than the black reach one and much less of a pain in the ass to build than the metal one. The metal one does provide the most grog-cred, however.
>>94143673For plastic, the 4th ed one or the Venerable Dread (The only one still being sold by GW)If you can find them though the old FW boxes are amazing.
>>94143711Also the old forgeworld legion-specific boxdreads were peak and I miss them. I'm pretty sure at least some of them have stls floating around though.
>>94143673Metals all the way. All hand sculpted by Jes Goodwin in 1993. More details on the metals.Minor (sometime significant) casting imperfections enhance the charm.Dreadsock.The metals and the plastics are nearly the same size. With the metals being a few mm shorter but thicker all around. They are a bear to keep glued together, pinning is nearly mandatory. and buying them now means you will have to deal with the decades of dings and drop damage on a two pound pewter hand grenade.
They finally came! All the way from the UK in a rigid clamshell with no foam and lol 32mm slottas
>>94144169Some years ago when they had the beastmen 6e metals on MTO I bought a couple sets of the khorngors, every one of their axes was bent or broken because of that. Just dumped in the clamshell insert and shipped, nothing to cushion them.
>>94143757they made a MK IV for every legion?>>94143874metal recasters are fairly common in my country so getting the metal dread is easier and cheaper. But i am not sure how compatible the metal torso is with plastic or resin weapons.
>>94144334Well the arm pegs are on the torso, so widening holes on the arms would be trivial if it came to that.
>>94096880>>cut the tabThe only hipsters that mention this are the exact same ones that keep toys in unopen boxes. they literally don't play* with their models they just collect them for resale value.Absolute scum. *And yes, modelling, converting and painting your models counts as playing with them.
>>94103975The 3d print striations in that castle make it look like ass.
>>94078986Peak warhammer
>>94144334I will be able to answer that once i get home, in something like 6-8 hours
>>94145307Post a lovingly arranged photograph of your fully painted, based and triple-gloss-coated rogue trader era models with several of your painted terrain pieces arranged in the background to provide depth of field and set a characterful scene for the picture, and I will engage with you on an equal level and give your criticism the thought and care that it deserves. Until then, stuff it back behind your teeth
>>94144334>they made a MK IV for every legion?All the chaos legions got one iirc, some but not all loyalists got custom venerable dreads.
>>94146641Le triple gloss meme
>>94146632 anon hereI checked and the plastic arms do have smaller holes(by a mm or so), shouldnt be too much of an issue to enlarge the hole.
>>94146641Gloss varnish is awesome and I'm tired of people saying it's bad. It makes your models shiny and tough as nails.
Thoughts on this weird little guy as a Necromancer?
>>94149582He seems like the type of freak who'd hang out in graveyards doing magic shit
Question on 3rd edition 40K rules, in the rules it says models with 2 weapons get +1 attacks. I take it that just means models with a pistol and chainsword.
>>94150667it also includes models with for example 2 chainswords, 2 pistols, nids with paired scything talons etc.
>>94150681Thanks anon, I also was wondering what the effect of a failed morale was in shooting. While in melee they fall back for shooting it seems, redundant because even if you fail below 50% there’s no effect.
>>94144169Fella needs some viagra for his axe
>>94150692A unit that fails a morale check caused by shooting also falls back. Being below 50% applies a -1 Ld modifier to the test.
>>94149100thanks anon>>94146868All MK IV are venerables? they never made a "blank/simple" one? i am looking at recaster sites and i can only find the chaplain, red scorpion, regular venerable, an iron clad and grey knight one.
>>94149582Looks like early Jes Goodwin. Is it a Citadel mini or Asgard? Or something else entirely?
>>94143711I am perpetually enraged that there's so little love for boxy bois among the STL makers. They'll make random Gundam-inspired bitz for Contemptors or create both flawless duplicates and hyperdetailed modernisations of ancient RT designs, but they continue to avoid the Bestnought like the plague. There's only one good one out there and it's both as monopose as the originals and no longer sold.
>>94150731There was a MkIV body for running as just a plain old Dreadnought, BlackMarket have it on their webstore though you might be able to find it cheaper somewhere else
>>94151002>it's both as monopose as the originals and no longer soldany name or keyword?
Would heroquest minis stand out in a 5th ed army. Specifically the chaos warrior and the orc
>>94151270Tinnut for classic box & chaos versions, Helforged for a loyalist heresy-era version of the FW Chaos style MK4s - I'd forgotten the second existed, but good luck finding it especially after all the telegram groups shat themselves this week.
>>94152041>Tinnuti could only find the chaotic version which seem to be called "Chaotic Evil (G)Olden Days Boxy Boy" any idea how the loyalist one was called?
>>94151562There's pretty good sculpts based on those warriors, add those into the mix along with the old battlemasters warriors
>>94143711Blood Angels box dread was literally the first ever WH miniature I ever saw a picture of. It's shocking how GW has thrown the iconic design into garbage bin.>>94151562All MB -citadel minis are great. I have a particular soft spot for the smug wolf riders from Battlemasters
>>94149582>>94149582based urban camo cloak wearing necromancer
>>94095800Cool stuff. Except we aren't talking about two weekend warriors ponsing about with HEMA replicas or even (at an extreme) two real world combatants trying to shank each other with a bayonet. We're talking about genetically altered sociapaths wielding 4ft energised chainsaws & energised fists designed to rupture bulkheads going up against living nightmares bristling with blades, teeth and venom, eldritch horrors with weapons that can pierce reality etc. All while on a battlefield riven with environmental hazards that would liquefy a regular human in seconds. Safe to say the lethality of that combat is going to be orders of magnitude higher than 2 dudes rolling around on the floor punching each other in the dick.
>>94104033As somebody that played Rogue trader back in the day and noped out around the mid-end of 3rd, RT is a good sytem if you want to play a very crunchy, slightly anarchic skirmish combat game and you have a huge, eclectic range of models or you and your buddies are happy to use your imagination and / or discretion to get through a game (I say that with a lot of love, I have been those guys). But as a scifi combat game designed to allow you to play two strikeforces of yourdudes meeting in pitched battle, RT is objectively worse than 2nd or 3rd (and 3rd is where I fell out of love with the game because they streamlined it too much).
>>94154019>It's shocking how GW has thrown the iconic design into garbage bin.It's worse than that, they've turned it into a kid's action playset version of the original
>>94151000https://forlornhopegames.co.uk/products/0675-necromancer-with-staffBob Naismith apparently.
>>94156352Did a little searching, supposedly its from the 1990 Grenadier wargame Fantasy Warriors.https://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Undead_%28Fantasy_Warriors%29#51007
Did they ever make a SM scout sergeant with sniper rifle in 2E? I can only find pic related from the time
>>94156427Not a sergeant armed with one no
>>94156489I see. That blows, I kinda wanted a full sniper squad. Guess I'll just make a squad with 4 snipers and the normal sergeant.
>>94156625I mean, the 2ed way to solve this problem would be to convert your own sniper sarge.
>>94156679Nah, I want the models to be as true to the box art as possible. No converting for me.
>>94154624Yes and if BOTH parties are enhanced with space age bone liquefying disruptor rays, iron curtain slamlock codpieces, meatgrinder-funnel-swords and child soldier psycho implants, then lethality will level out again and they'll be back at a stalemate. If one of those guys goes up against a squad of real world combatants, he'll mulch them without breaking a sweat, but against his equal he'll have to put in effort again to break past his defenses, avoid his foes own ludicrously overpowered attacks, and survive what's being thrown back at him all at the same time. It's a game and as such equally powered models should have an equally difficult time killing eachother. If you want to annihilate the whole enemy army on turn one and stroke yourself off about how powerful your guys are that's on you, go play one of the newer editions that caters to that. I took my time painting, converting and sculpting my models, when I play a game with them I want it to last longer than ten minutes and I want to know the details of what happened and why. A hateful mutant with an overgrown fluid filled skull and a bionic arm that barely works right until it's twisting someone's leg off finally winning a sword fight after four desperate turns of back and forth hacking and slashing against a beleaguered planetary defense officer who's been bombarding the field with rad-grenades because he's killing slightly more of the enemy than he is of his own men and he lacks the ability for long term planning because his brains have been pounded to jelly by artillery backwash is much more interesting to me than an army of perfectly enhanced supersoldiers without flaws vaporising their foes from across the battlefield as soon as they draw line of sight to themTo be clear, You can achieve the affect you described in RT by sending an overtooled character into combat with a squad of basic troopers. He'll annihilate them. But just like in real combat, you have to fight to your advantage.
>>94154650>RT is a good sytem if you want to play a very crunchy, slightly anarchic skirmish combat game and you have a huge, eclectic range of models or you and your buddies are happy to use your imagination and / or discretion to get through a gameYes that's exactly what I want, that's why I only play Rogue Trader Hahaha.I will argue, that if you have the buddies that are willing to use their patience and discretion RT does work just as well for larger games. But it's certainly an acquired taste, since at 3000pts on an 8' table it effectively becomes three overlapping games with the capacity to influence eachother. Not much fun if you're looking for streamlining but it's a blast if you WANT to be overloaded with chaotic detail.What army did you play back in the day? Any favorite moments from games gone by you'd like to share?
>>94156776It's a good thing they errata'd Iron Curtain Slamlock Codpieces in white dwarf eventually, they were really oppressive RAW.
>>94152732"Builder For Both Diseased Chaotic Evil Boxy Thugs" has the regular boxnought and nurgly variants. If you mean the Helforged one, while the ones that pop up on telegram use the chaos version images the pack does include the loyalist HH era parts as well.
>>94158668yeah, it gets tiring rolling on the penile fortitude d1000 table for every round of close combat, especially when half those rolls call for further roll on the groin permutations chart
>>94156710Cringe, but there's no converting required. Just paint one sniper with sergeant markings.
>>94156710>>94156625My dude you can just put sergeant stripes on a fifth sniper. Also, there's no reason not to have a heavy bolter in a sniper squad, which lets you go back to four snipers. >but I don't want to convert.. What the fuck, man. One of the main appeals of the groggy rules is that they not only enable but straight-up reward conversions. You're kneecapping yourself with that attitude.
>>94156710My dude, miniatures are not static monuments to be preserved in amber. Kitbashing models so they can become /your dudes/ is cool, and good. Monopose models that must be played in a certain way is one of the reasons why modern 40k is SO BORING
>>94162347I do enough converting with my modern 40k stuff. I want my 2E stuff to look like they came straight out of an old white dwarf ad.
>>94151026I want to get one of these and do some extensive work on it to make it generic chaos. I have the old "tickler" dreadnought and I wanted another to go alongside it. Do you think they would fit?
>>94162492What's a tickler dread?
>>94164707I dunno its just what I've heard some people call the one with the power claw thing. I shouldn't have changed the picture I was going to upload at the last second
>>94165136That's the power scourge and it's the same box as the hammer one. If you want generic the 3rd variant should probably be best.
>>94165835What do you mean by 3rd variant?
>>94166047They're all the same box from the catalog page I posted. It came with all 3 guns and 3 melee weapons so you can pick and choose. I meant that if you want a generic-looking chaos dread the 3rd option not pictured in the two official studio photos, i.e. power claw + dual autocannons, is the way to go IMO.
>>94166286Oh I know, I actually have the kit, and all the extra weapons, but I want a second Dreadnought to go alongside it that doesn't look identical (cause I'm ocd like that) but fits the era style... so I'm thinking of getting the generic SM dreadnought and chaos-ifying it
>>94165835What on earth is a Power Scourge
>>94166700A scourge is a type of whip
>>94166738Ohhh, that's neat.
>>94166700Low S but extra attacks IIRC, shitty armor pen, good if you plan to engage MEQ or lower.
Working a Space Hulk project. The big question is 32mm, 28mm, or 25mm bases for the Terminators? I'm leaning towards the 28s.Stealers going on 25mms
>>9416978928 is good, use 28 for the stealers too
>>94170027Can't, would have to buy another overpriced box of bases from a scalper. I'll see how they look, but I guess I could also recast with a simple 1 part mold.
>>94170076Or be a chad and 3d printPrinter is like a tank, beats everything
>>94170155Nah, the bases are the genesis of the project. Printing bases is also total dickbutt. Most of the Genestealers are 3d printed from scans as are some of the Terminator arms and a squad of the 1st ed plastic Terms. Trying to get ahold of some of the glorious metal 4502 Genestealers but I keep missing them. Might do recasts from the recast guy. Even though doesn't appear to have the original arms.
>>94170207Good luck hunting down stuff from 30 years ago when you can just get the files and print it lolAll I'm sayin
>>94170221I'm super confused, the boarding actions bases are a relatively new GW product, and as I said above, I really dislike printing bases. The ones I printed for HeroQuest have already got some chips/cracks and that was with a flex blend. Not to mention that compound bevels print poorly unless you support the shit out of them. I print minis all day long, absolutely love giving goldfishblue and GW the middle finger. Finding scans of ultra niche ranges is not so easy on the other hand.
>>94170267Use telegram for the best scans, I legit have that model saved from there lolIt's not that hard you just need to ask around and get connections with other grogs
>>94169789With the options you have in the pic, 28's going to have the least overhang. 25mm as the second choice. Metal termies kinda swim on a 30mm+ base with the exception of guys like that big Terminator Captain with the power glove and stormbolter. >scalped plastic basesEhhh. I usually use a one-sided texture mold cast in miliput/GS and glued on top of a low-profile round. Easier to trim to size and you can get some decent variation. Too much work for some people though. I'm still debating going Full Retard and getting some Hirst Arts molds to cast up an entire 1e/2e tile set along with some bits and bobs from the Maelstrom's Edge kits. >>94170155>>94170221The value of 3D printing for large projects vs. casting is inversely proportional to the number of identical pieces you need, and the amount of potential wear those pieces will face. Bases are high-wear and generally similar, and worse yet these are going to be under metal models. It's the worst possible use case for 3DP other than "load-bearing clips holding together modular terrain".
>>94170356I've never had any problems with printed bases for years I think it's just about using not such brittle resin
>>94170356>I'm still debating going Full Retard and getting some Hirst Arts molds to cast up an entire 1e/2e tile set along with some bits and bobs from the Maelstrom's Edge kits.I think that'd be rad as fuck, anon, do it!
>>94170356Yeah, the bases were a gift and the impetus for me to get off my ass and get this Space Hulk project finally going. The thought of spending 40 bucks for 20 more 28mm bases (plus 40 more that I don't need) is no bueno. I still have some Jesmonite and silicone left over from a terrain project, I'll just recast them as needed. Glad you agree with me on the 28's, looks the most perfect to me. >>94170341I haven't been on telegram in about a year, time to wade back in.
Understand they're not practical for Space Hulk but Terminators going on 40mm bases just looks nice, regardless of age
>>94170677Gives them a heft
>>94170076Recasting bases yourself is probably one of the easiest possible things that qualifies as recasting.
>>94170677>>94170682Nah, they look tiny on 40mm.
>>94171054Eh I don't see it, I think it gives them prominence.
>>94159381ty very much anon
Painted an old rhino.
>>94172463Very nice as always, is it original?
>>94172653Thanks. Yeah, most of it. Some parts of the chassi had been torn off by the previous owner. I think it was supposed to be a wrecked tank terrain piece. I fixed the holes with greenstuff and sanded it down. Pretty happy with the repairs.
>>94172701Looks great, nice to see decent repairs on old models. Speaking of which, /wip/ hasn't offered any help with this one yet. I'm trying to get superglue off from this old scorcha turret but its causing me troubles, don't want to ruin it. So far IPA, acetone and freezer hasn't gotten the superglue off. I'd really like to make the turret rotateable.
>>94172928I had to soak some parts in 91% Isopropyl for weeks to get superglue pliable enough to easily peel from the surface. Like 2-3 weeks in a jar.
>>94173231Oh damn. Well I guess it's worth a try too
>>94172928I found that acetone freshness matters a lot, if it's still not a pickable/movable jelly after 24 h in industrial-type acetone (as in paint solvent, not nail polish remover) I'm out of ideas.
>>94174320I meant>in freshly-bought industrial-type acetone
>>94162360you are saying it like sculping/converting wasn't a white dwarf thing.
>>94174320Thanks, gonna try that when I get new bottle of acetone, one I used was really old bottoms of the can. I'll keep it soaked in IPA for meanwhile. White metal won't get ruined by IPA and acetone if left for soaking long while, right?
>>94174353Maybe it is an article thing but I said ad. I doubt they put conversions on box sets and adverts.
>>94174436I've forgotten models in acetone for literal months with no adverse effects. Just remember to wash them afterwards, letting solvent dry out on models is not a thing you want.
Have Termies always been on 40's? what about back in 4th?
>>94175994Terms on 25's in 4th, 40s were for big character models. The plastics came out in 2007/8, and marked the jump to big bases. So end of 4th, beginning of 5th.
>>94176378woops 2006/2007 not 07/08. Still on 25s in 4th ed rulebook and codexes. Plastic multiparts and 5th edition was the line then. 2nd edition Space Hulk Terminators came with 25's as well.
>>94156776Alright I'm curious, what miniature is this guy? I assume a conversion but I honestly can't tell. He rules, either way.
>>94172928Get yourself some superglue debonder, it may take a few passes for older glue, but it'll turn it into crusty rubber you can peel off eventually.
Scouts!
>>94178990Some nice looking lads, anon. I've got the rt scout with the bolter and bayonet. Cool model, sadly ha no place in my Iron Snakes army(they don't use scouts, neophytes are mentored by a squad as they are brought in to replace casualties).
>>94178961Pretty sure he said upthread that they are all hand sculpted.
Far too old for /40kg/, too "new" for /GROG/. Alas, to love 5th edition...
>>94181650Oldhammer is about rules and aesthetics not age, so pull yourself up a chair kiddo, grab your brushes and paints and have fun.
>>94178961>>94179422It's true, I sculpt them and cast them entirely by hand.If you're interested in getting ahold of one, you can look up mutopiatoys.bigcartel.com
>>94172463Super clean, very nice anon
>>94078959What is the best old 40K edition to try out? Ive had most experience with 6th and 7th.I was looking for a 7thE Dark Eldar codex but i couldnt find it so i mightaswell ask for older editions. From what i can tell 2ndE is pretty popular.
>>941835312nd is fun but Dark Eldar are not a playable faction until 3rd, unless you want to homebrew.
>>94183634Havent looked into the rules for 2nd and 3rd yet. Prob will do that in a few hours.
>>94183531There is fanmade codex for dark eldars for 2nd edition and with imagination you can make them eldar pirates with just regular eldar codex or use the citadel journal army list for eldar pirates. But yeah, 2nd is great but you need little bit more stuff for it, like templates and dice.
>>94183697If you've played 6th and 7th, then 3rd should be fairly familiar to you.2nd is quite different, a lot more granular and crunchy.
>>94183697If you want to look at stuff for 2nd, here is pretty much all you need aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWdhLm56L2ZvbGRlci9DVGdHaFRBRCNJTzZ6bGYwd2ptQTkzUEI5WkZ1aFFB
>>94183731Sorry im not sure how to use this if i post it after the m it doesnt show anything.
>>94183731>>94184146Eitherway found it in the dropbox
>>94184146You have to be based like nintendo 64 to access it
>>94183531Do you want an experience focused on small armies, powerful tooled up characters, and comparitively crunchy rules? Then 2nd. Do you want something that's a familiar experience as a 6th+ player but with significantly less of the bloat and dumb shit? Then try 4th core rules with mostly 3rd codexes(mostly meaning if it has a 3.5 update use that, use 4th Space Marines, and maybe Black Templars if someone's really into them). Do you want to basically play a gloriously clunky RPG where you spend a weekend fighting out the battle rather than just having the GM narrate it? Rogue Trader.
>>94183731>here is pretty much all you needYou got any of them Dark Millennium templates in usable quality?
>>94186935(not meaning to shit on you btw, lots of good material there, just looking for the templates)
>>94186942I might, let me check
>>94186935They're in the blast templates pdf.
>>94186935I bought used Dark Millennium book but of course it was missing those templates. They are in BLAST TEMPLATES pdf in high quality tho.
>>94178990cool necromunda gangers
>>94187117>>94187120Thanks guys, I assumed "blast" meant just the basic round ones.
>>94181763I meant age of the edition, not myself.Oldhammer enthusiasts want to play 3rd and older, everyone else wants to play 10th(yuck). It had a few problems like deathstar units but I think 5th Ed. was peak rules.
A few years ago I ran The Enemy Within campaign in WFRP 1e for my rpg group, recently they've been asking if we can go back to the system again.Thinking of dropping Castle Drachenfels on them, that'll teach the bastards.
>>94192497Hit them with the Doomstones trilogy, just fuck their shit up.
>>94190501The 5th, 6th, and 7th Editions were more pared down than 3rd and 4th Edition, but had more granularity compared to nuhammer. IMHO 5-7th was just the right balance of granularity and streamlining.
Im glad my favorite chaos character is in 2nd Edition. Just need to find a friend to try it out so i can wreck him with Huron
>>94193455After 4th, they added flyers and superheavies to the main game and everything went to shit
>>94193455The problem with 5+ is that the game made the final translation from being kind of bad, with a lot of fun potential for creativity and flexibility, into a straightjacket with armies being cynically pumped-and-dumped for maximum unit churn. The codexes from those eras are monuments to how to fuck up a game. The focus on ramping the scale of battles ever upwards and ramming in more and more plastic crack exacerbated the existing problems in the engine, and GW's attempts at adding character to individual forces became ever more nakedly "buy these three boxes and get the fourth one free. On the tabletop only, of course." They killed off the Specialist Games team and dumped the Outrider program, began pushing harder and harder for tournaments as the only way to play and subscription-model rules, and generally ripped out three-quarters of what made 40k worth a shit in the first place. That era is the reason most of the people here stopped going along with GW's shit. And it's not something that belongs in the thread.
Pulled out my old 2e Space Hulk set to catalog all the stuff I need to fix. I appear to have given all my Genestealers to my brother at some point, I'm missing a few power fists, one map section and some of the blips delaminated, but all in all it's doing pretty well. I should see if I can get him to print off some replacement parts for me. I also fell down a bit of a rabbithole on the stuff required for 1e, since I have a spare pile of Cult models from an old commission job..
>>94193455>The 5th, 6th, and 7th Editions were more pared down than 3rd and 4th Edition, but had more granularity compared to nuhammer.>more granularityBesides, arguably, Hull Points, I'm not seeing it. If you mean there was a deeper simulation, because of things like the vehicle damage tables and compulsory movement I would agree, but 5-7th was still very much a game of binary states, to the point where weapons would cause either one wound or all of your wounds and nothing in-between. >>94199820>The codexes from those eras are monuments to how to fuck up a game.I feel the need to defend part of the 5th BA codex. Moving Death Company, Assault Marines, and DC dreadnoughts into Troops, and shifting Dreadnoughts into Heavy Support, and Vanguard Veterans into Fast Attack solved a lot of the problems of SM Codices being too Elites-heavy and straight-jacketing players into taking MSU of Scouts for their Troops-tax so they could field units that actually did things. Also, the 5th edition Space Wolf codex was basically perfect. >>94198759This. A D6 system works well enough when nobody's stats are more than 5 higher or lower than the medium, but trying to shoehorn things like Super-Heavies into such a system completely broke it. They needed to move to a larger dice to make those work, since they're still a stress-point even in 8-10th. (it was bad enough trying to play with them in 4th Apocalypse)
>>94202491Honestly, between the inclusion of Primarchs, knights and warlord titans the situation is just cooked. There’s no way to fix 40k without undoing the inclusion of Apocalypse units. Even when GW released their turbocucked nuCombat Patrol, people were bitching about needing knights and shit in there. 4th apocalypse was fine, since everyone playing understood it was a huge mess you did once a year and kinda hated playing.
Gather around friends for I'm about to tell you a tale of Tough Luck Dreadnought. He went against tyranid horde, but due tyranid event table, arrived late to miss critical first turn shooting. When he finally did and prepared to open fire on his assault cannon, the magic happened and rolled three jams on sustained fire dice, blowing up the weapon. Furious, he counter charged nearby hormagaunts but his prey were killstealed by nearby tactical squad. Finally getting into a proper melee against charging genestealers he thought he might get to vent his anger, but to everybodys horror a genestealer managed to hit his leg and knock the mighty dread stumbling backwards, straight outta table edge. While his brothers did narrowly manage to pull off victory against tyranid menace, his massive failure at everything shadowed over the victory. Man I love 2nd edition.
CALLING POLISH ANON, cleanup on aisle "post batrep from the Oldhammer weekend"!
>>94206493>rolled three jams on sustained fire dice, blowing up the weaponHaven't heard that in a long while.
>>94204932>There’s no way to fix 40k without undoing the inclusion of Apocalypse units.Seeing the shit choice in the GW's own online store, I say delete them and good riddance. Won't fuck players any more than GW itself does. Can keep those units "optional for big battles, not really balanced, with opponent's agreement only".
What's /grog/'s general opinion on fielding a themed/fluffy soup in 2ed 40K?Something like CSM+Traitor Guard+Demons or GSC + Cult Guard + Nids?Assuming they're not taken for competitive optimizing (just more variety), properly modeled (e.g. the Guard having all Imperial insignia defaced/removed/replaced) and fluffed as a late-stage planetary rebellion that's stopped pretending to be disenfranchised citizens having a beef with the local government?I'm toying with the idea of assembling an oldhammer force and these come to mind, but I know there's been a period of soupmaxxing in later 40k that's left many players wary of anything resembling mixed faction lists.
>>94209715yeah do it lad
5th edition guard veterans my beloveds.
>>94209715> What's /grog/'s general opinion on the objectively correct way to play 40k?Sounds good to me broski
>>94209715It's fine. Allies are encouraged in 2nd. As in there's a % of the points set aside by default for allies. It's how you include stuff like assassins well, the entire Imperial Agents list really is jsut tehre as an Allies list, in stuff, and there's various restrictions in place so like under CSM list you can have Ork and Chaos Cult stuff without even having to ask, and IG stuff with opponent's permission but you don't get the IG's reserves and pre-game barrage rule. Daemons are just in the CSM list as it is. GSC can get some IG and other imperial bits (not marines) as allies in the list, but doesn't get nids as an ally as Tyranids technically can't ally with anyone but I think for narrative scenarios you could put something together. GSC are kind of an odd list being one of those get-you-by lists only, like Squats, but with enough good bits to them that they're perfectly functional.>>941998205th+ is also very much not retro/oldhammer because it's the era where basically everyone responsible for that was fucking off, either to different chunks of GW or out of the company entirely. The absolute core behind the games was gutted and left with utter mediocrity in successor designers that were nothing but puppets for the marketing department, divorced from sense and understanding, exactly as Priestly feared would eventually happen.
Anyone got some good recipe for 2E era black armor? About to start working on some death company and I want to get as close to the studio art as I can.
>>94212056
>>94212056From the pics, it looks like a chunky, blended dark blue highlight, followed by a sharp bluegrey edge highlight. I'd suggest something like a black/Kantor Blue* mix for the chunky highlight, then add white to it for the sharp highlights*other brands are, of course, available
>>94213557>>94213563Thanks. Will try this and post results later.
How do I tell if a codex is 3 or 3.5ed.? I have a Tau codex and eldar and they are formatted very very differently. GW has always been retarded and doesn't even write the edition on the rulebooks
>>94216553Lexicanum, for once, doesn't lie. This is the covers for the codex volumes by edition.>GW has always been retarded and doesn't even write the edition on the rulebooksI agree, they ARE immensely retared for not doing that.https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codices_(List)
>>94217499Wonder how much money they've made from someone buying wrong rulebooks
>>94217983Given they keep pushing book sales on people even the week before a new edition drop I'd probably say a fucking hug pile of money.
>>94216553>write the edition on the rulebooksI've seen so many ebay listings calling pic related a 2ed codex lmao
>>94218778I've seen enough listings calling anything pretty much everything else to know that the only thing I can really trust is an actual photo of the product and even then it's only 90% certainty until I physically have it in hand.
>>94217499Thanks anon, but this doesn't help me either, which Eldar codex is the the 3 and which is 3.5? What's the difference between Eldar and Craftworld Eldar?
>>94219449There isn't a 3.5ed Eldar codex, Craftworld Eldar is an expansion book that lets you run craftworld-themed variant lists (e.g. Saim Hann windriders, Iyanden ghost army)
>>94219479Just the answer I needed, thanks!! I have the CWE one and I couldn't figure out why it's formatted so differently from the Tau one
>>94216553>GW has always been retarded and doesn't even write the edition on the rulebooksThat's probably a function of a good chunk of the books being held over into the subsequent edition, with replacements being a couple of years down the line. Having your Codex clearly state it's for the previous edition, when it's actually still valid in the current edition alongside all the ones actually labelled as being for it, is just asking to confuse your customers
>>94219673It probably just never occurred to them to care. The current codex is the one in the shops, and they have no reason to care about anything older. It's not like they ever had any incentive or inclination to support older editions.
>>94209392I feel like a bit of a fraud now lol. Been shilling the event for good 2 months abd in the end I didnt go. Got shafted by uni moving my schedule and had to take PE on the day of the event. From 8 people that were supposed to come only 4 did (3 times eldar and 1 Nids player). I will try to get a game with someone from the group and post a batrep after that as compensation.
>>94220790Shame about that
>>94220790Fucking loser, you failed us all
anyone know where I can get carry cases like this nowadays? It seems everywhere people say "just buy a plastic tote and carefully stand each mini side by side and hold em in place with a magnet sheet it totally works bro its totally not obtuse and annoying bro"Even games workshop has that stupid plastic shelf thing where you can only fit like 24 models in one of them.I just want a big suitcase with sheet upon sheet of foam to lay down models in rows and columns, without paying an arm and a leg to battlefoam.
>>94221122KR Multicase.I actually have 2 of those cases that I'm looking to get rid of. If you're in the uk...
How many platoons is too many platoons?
>>94221133'fraid not, britbong friend. Im across the pond in Canada, on the western coast. Ill check out KR Multicase, thanks! I dont much care to have a showcase shelf as I dont have much room to do that, so having case upon case that I can stack in the corner or in a closet would be nice, and just label them.
>>94220790At least I had the excuse of reserving my vacation in the mountains before I knew about the event. Would probably take out my Oldcromunda Scavvies otherwise.Post own painted oldhammer models as penance.>3 times eldarHow horrifying.
>>94206493>>94209414My group back in the day just refereed to them as >jam dice
>>94206493Good lord
>>94221150If you haven't got enough models to stage a Soviet-style parade, then you haven't got enough
>>94221661I was going to collect 3 Platoons with 3 Steel Legion Squads each, and I figured that would be more than enough but I also wanted Cadians. Plus, I was going to collect every Necromunda Gang and run them as Hive Militia.
Working on my Tallarn. For 2nd Edition
Lots of conversions for this force.They're armed with hellguns. I mean hot-shot lasguns. (I think hellgun sounds cooler.)
I'm working on baddies for the desert raiders to splat on the table at the same time.Is there a scene for playing 2e or 3e in the rustbelt? I'm trying to get one going in Pittsburgh.
>>94223076>>94223088I like their cool shades
>>94223226Thanks, I still need to put the white glare on them. I was up til 6 am getting them to a stage where they just need some touch up.
>>94223076Where does the heavy plasma come from?
>>94223386I mean the rules, they didn't have access to one IIRC.
>>94223401They're in the Codex Army Lists before the 2e Guard Codex dropped. Like Land Speeders, for example. They axed both of those, but I put modeling opportunity first.I'm into the older rules for pseudo-simulation and customization.I'll have my illegal Land Speeders and Heavy Plasmaguns. The gunner is blue tacked to the seat, so I can take him off and put him on an Autocannon if I'm playing with someone who isn't fun.Pictured is one of the speeders I'm working on.
>>94223554Ah, the 1.5-ish black booklet. I forgot about that.
I dont think 5th edition is "groghammer", but thought I might as well ask:Does anyone here have the Planetstrike book and could provide a higher quality photo of the Crimson Fists banner from page 69 ?
>>94226279I do have Planetstrike at home, I will be able to take a picture when I leave work anonI don't have Battle Missions or Wargear annoyingly, you can tell they were like a cross-edition series. Wargear was a bit unnecessary as a book of literally weapon lists, since every army in 3rd-5th had roughly analogous weapons.
Finished my first death company guy. Maybe I should add a little more blue to the highlights.
>>94226330where me banner? T_TI beg you...
Hey anons. At the minute I'm having a grand old time with Mutant Chronicles, it's so crunchy and fun. Can anyone here sell me on an older version of 40K? I play 4th Edition Combat Patrol, and it's fun, but I'm feeling like it's about time for an army scale game.
>>94230119OG mutant chronicles was roughly contemporaneous with 2nd edition 40k, so that's probably going to be the closest in terms of neon-coloured 90s crunch
>>94230147Is there any particular reason you draw the comparison? Is it a D20 game?
>>94230158No, but it is crunchy in the sense that it has much more detailed rules for just about everything which would get heavily abstracted and simplified in later editions. For example melee combat is resolved as a series of 1v1 engagements, vehicles all have individual damage tables, there's like 6 different kinds of missile you can put in a launcher, psychic powers are resolved through a dedicated mini-card game etc.
>>94230187That's the kind of crunch I'm looking for anon, thanks for the info. You're a gem.
>>94230244Look up the battle bible, it's a free searchable pdf with all the rules and army lists as well as extra shit published in white dwarf etc.
>>94230264Nice one, thanks again
>>94230244>>94183731
>>94230308Appreciate you!
>>94229155I took a pic from my copy.
>>94226279That's in the back of the 5E Codex too
>>94221150which white dwarf was this in?
>>94230769>>94232583thank you, fist-friends
