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>>94374469
the what bang is all here?

>>94374469
How does the Lower Decks expansion work if you're using the Klingon core book?

>>94374736
Do you mean, like, actual mechanical interactions?

>>94375187
That too, but more along the lines of, is it worthwhile if I wanted to play something akin to Ma'ah's experience on the Che'Ta? Or is the book too federation focused in terms of ships, races and mechanics ?

>>94375553
I mean, mixing and matching them shouldn't be overly difficult, there are bound to be a lot of overlaps with how duties are to be performed and such, the major difference is that on occasion a Klingon will have to kill a superior if that superior is acting without honor and/or jeopardizing the crew's lives needlessly.

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She's gorgeous.

>>94378297
Fucking degenerates.

>>94378297
Who's Frank Lin?

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>>94378347
>he doesn't know

>>94378311
Some people just have no taste

>>94378297
I do not care for the high contrast black and white hulls with red accents.

>>94378631
Well I do

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Double-checking something for an argument I'm in. Is it ever firmly established in Trek that transporter clones or other life created by accidents involving transporters, are not afforded the same rights as ordinary people?

Specifically the argument is over Thomas Riker. Someone is INSISTING that Federation law treats him as having inherently different, fewer rights than Will Riker, that the DS9 episode "Defiant" makes this clear. I've just finished reading through the transcript and haven't found anything remotely suggesting that Tom is treated as anything other than an ordinary person before the law, but is there something in the episode as it aired that contradicts this?

I think the guy I'm arguing with is just fuckin' dumb, but I like to cover my bases.

The broader argument involves Tuvix, naturally, but the guy trotted out Tom Riker as though he were some kind of "gotcha!" to prove that Federation law would treat Tuvix differently from a normal person, but I can't recall anyone ever suggesting that Tom Riker isn't a person with full rights.

>>94380140
Clone Riker is given all the same rights. The only difference between the two is that original Riker had earned promotion to commander in the interim. Although the federation may have owed him its thanks and its allegiance, bet treatment, etc, clone Riker had not proven himself or earned promotion, and so he was still a Lieutenant or whatever he had been.

From the standpoint of status or "the Law" that was the only difference.

The Federation is post-scarcity or something and never deals with the question of personal effects/property so that question isn't even addressed. If anything, neither Riker cared about possessions.

>>94380140
if i remember that DS9 episode correctly there was nothing about being treated poorly. it was more wanting to be something other then just the clone of Riker and doing something to make him stand out.
not because he was discriminated against by the federation.

>>94380175 >>94380161
The guy is specifically saying that the Federation was comfortable handing him over to the Cardassians for trial and imprisonment specifically because he was a clone. Which, setting aside that my damn near eidetic memory for useless stuff didn't recall anything to that effect being said or implied in the episode, just struck me as immediately wrong and antithetical to the Federation's core values. Like I just couldn't imagine even the most insane Starfleet Admiral saying "he's only a clone". Not prior to ST: Insurrection, anyway. And the transcript for the episode over on Chakotaya bears this out. So I just wanted to double-check if anyone remembered something from the actual airing of the episode.

>>94380189
that shit doesn't ring half of a single bell *anywhere* for me

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>>94380189
>Not prior to ST: Insurrection
*Sorry, meant ST: Nemesis. Like I said, "near" eidetic. Not actually eidetic.

>>94380140
The only time clones were treated with less rights was in the season 2 TNG episode where Riker aborted a bunch of premature clones taken from Enterprise crew member DNA without their consent, and that was more about the rights of the individual to their own personal individuality. It's also clearly a case where they were copies of the original, whereas with Thomas and Will they both split off at the same divergence point; neither of the Rikers tried suddenly phasering the other out of existence.

>>94380140
The deal with Tuvix was that both Tuvok and Neelix also had rights and were not, given the technological situation, actually deceased - simply unable to respond according to their wishes.It's not a question of Tuvix having fewer rights any more than it would be if a person underwent a severe personality change during treatment for a brain tumor and subsequently returned to their old personality. The "new" individual is not lost - their specific behaviors (as expressed by their central nervous system for example) may be lost but their potential remains part of the original. But to say to someone who has clearly undergone a significant personality change that that's all fine and they're fully entitled to, say, apply for a divorce or a huge loan or anything else they wouldn't do while not under the influence of that tumor and/or treatment would be to disregard the patient's best interest. We know that they can recover.

So when Janeway makes the decision - which is informed by Kes, among others who knew Tuvok and Neelix - she's not doing so out of spite but out of both the practicality of her crew's need (two bodies better than one) and the rights of her two injured crew (which, yes, do outweigh the needs of the few, a phrase curiously omitted from the episode but likely for brevity) and the emotional impact that Tuvix is having on Kes and others, who can be trusted to know that their loved ones would not want this situation to continue (which is the basis of power of attorney for diminished capacity, though when that's used to end a life it is indeed deeply suspect).

It's a flawed episode but a bold premise and both legally and medically sound, as much as any resolution to that situation could have been. And in practical terms there was no budget for adding Tuvix (even as a guest) but if he'd been popular they'd have brought him back.

>>94380189
>Federation was comfortable handing him over to the Cardassians for trial and imprisonment specifically because he was a clone
just skimming through the episode there is nothing to imply that.
if anyone else did what clone Riker did the situation would play out the same. it's the best possible outcome given the circumstances.

>>94380219
I can't imagine Federation law would say that the rights of Tuvok and Neelix extend to the point where they are able to end the life of a third, distinct person who is specifically stating that he wants to live.

>and were not, given the technological situation, actually deceased
I mean that is not a road I would think anyone should want to go down, because it immediately begs certain questions.

Suppose Q shows up, snaps his fingers, and caused Janeway to cease to exist but from her DNA has resurrected her dead parents as they were at the moment of her conception. Wait are Janesway's parents dead in canon? Whatever, for the sake of argument they are here. The point being that due to Q's abilities he is able to end one distinct life to recreate two others.

Now suppose someone has invented a machine that can do exactly as Q just did. Anyone entering it is killed, but their parents at the moment of their conception are recreated.

The whole argument seems to be based on things that shouldn't actually factor into the decision from a moral standpoint, namely the nature of Tuvix's "birth", and the fact that people were uncomfortable around him.

>>94380140
Nah, I'm sure that's mostly from Tuvix, but Riker did fry a clone in up the Long Ladder

>>94380161
>If anything, neither Riker cared about possessions.
other than the trombone.

>>94380262
Jeri Taylor wrote a novel where Janeway's father takes her and her fiancé on a test flight of his new warship. It breaks up in the atmosphere, the part containing Kathryn lands safeishly, and she watches the part containing the guys sink to the bottom of the ocean. This was partially canonized in Season 3, when an alien shows up pretending to be her dad's ghost.

Her mother's still alive as of late Season 7, because Janeway mentions wanting to contact her.

I know this has nothing to do with your point, I just wanted to mention it because it goes some way towards explaining how Janeway might have ended up so insane.

>>94380400
>warship
Typo or entirely in character for the Janeways?

>>94380400
>and she watches the part containing the guys sink to the bottom of the ocean.
Wasn't she in a position to save one of them but decided to try to technobabble her way into saving both, but fucked that up?
I do have some vague memories reading Star Trek books like 20 years ago...

>>94380400
Fair, and I appreciate the pedantry.

Insert anyone with dead parents here, then - Worf, say. The point is that the ability ior technology may allow us to do things that we couldn’t do before, but the idea that “because there was a way to bring two people who have ceased to exist back, they therefore are not really dead” doesn’t really seem like a line of thought we’d want to follow because Trek is a universe that’s just one Q visit or one crazy scientist away from someone who could kill anyone to bring back their genetic ancestors.

>>94380262
Yeah it's a flawed premise and would have been better used to introduce a new, surprise character, even as a season-long guest, with Tuvok and Neelix restored alongside him.

The DNA machine doesn't really work because half your parents DNA is discarded at conception, so they can't be recreated from you. But morally/ethically? That machine kills you and creates a clone of each of your parents. That's no different to getting onto a transporter, killing yourself, and having an exact duplicate recreated elsewhere (and sometimes two or perhaps more elsewheres).

I agree that Tuvix's ability to speak for himself is disconcerting, but it's not unlike dealing with diseases or chemicals that can induce profound personality changes. If the person who likes being on cocaine likes being on cocaine why is it a problem? It doesn't factor in that the cocaine comes through a murderous supply chain - in theory, it doesn't even have to, we could just end the war on drugs and then... maybe the cartels would stop killing each other and pay taxes like legitimate businesses. But for the end user none of that matters personally and the lives of those others ended to create his fun new personality are collateral. Like the guy with the brain tumor we can only say as observers that this isn't really him. But what if it is? Aren't we dooming these people to oblivion by curing their tumors and cutting the cocaine supply?

Also in Tuvix's specific case, nobody was willing to speak up for him. On a ship that size, when he thought he should live, none of them in weeks had decided he was a real person. A crew more than willing to speak its minds and occasionally mutiny. At that point it becomes a matter of the standards of the community over Janeway's orders. If you want to call it an execution then OK - but if everyone agrees it must happen, that's all that can happen. Without the specific Federation statutes and case law we can't say it was even against Federation law.

>>94381145
>That's no different to getting onto a transporter, killing yourself, and having an exact duplicate recreated elsewhere (and sometimes two or perhaps more elsewheres).

It’s pretty different because *that’s not how transporters work*. Star Trek is not that kind of show and it’s directly stated in-universe that it’s not how transporters work.

Your cocaine and cancer examples are also not good ones because cocaine or a brain tumor cause actual, measurable damage to the body that will kill it eventually. Tuvix is directly stated to be perfectly healthy and viable as an independent organism.

> Without the specific Federation statutes and case law we can't say it was even against Federation law.
We actually can - because if Lower Decks. Freeman and others openly call it murder and no one questions that it was murder, only that the specific circumstances may have left Janeway feeling that she had no choice but to commit murder. But that still leaves it as murder.

No one in Nova Squad was willing to speak up either remember - does that mean a crime wasn’t committed, or does it mean that a conspiracy was?

>>94380161
More to the point they had actually played with the idea of killing off Commander Riker and keeping Lieutenant Riker on the Enterprise. Data would have assumed the role of first officer:

>Ronald D. Moore remembered, "We thought it would be bold and shocking, and something for the fans to chew over. But Rick Berman, and to an extent, Michael Piller, didn't want to make such a big change." (Star Trek: The Next Generation 365, p. 307)
>A major reason for Berman's refusal was the then-tentative plans to bring TNG's cast to the big screen. He recalled, "Basically, you're putting a character on the ship who has not experienced anything of the last six years and doesn't know any of the characters." (Captains' Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages, p. 279)

And Sirtis prefers him!

>Jonathan Frakes described Thomas Riker as being "much less confident than Will. But he's also tender and sweeter. I think I like Tom better!" (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, p. 191) Troi actress Marina Sirtis concurred, "I preferred Thomas Riker. I thought he was cuter than Will." (Star Trek: Communicator issue 113, p. 19)

To that guy's point, it's best to remember that the nature of the transporter duplication is such that you cannot tell which is the original anyway, so it's a moot point. We preference Will because we've known him for so long, but the only reason you could call him the Real Riker is he was lucky enough to get off that planet and continue on with Riker's life. Thomas got the short end of the deal.

>>94381213
>Tuvix is directly stated to be perfectly healthy and viable as an independent organism
Yeah but you have to admit the dude was still cancer.

The only "duplicate" type stories I can think of where someone has less rights or could have committed a crime just by existing would be STD in the 31st century, but in this case it was people from another universe. They actually kept a temporal agent from the Kelvinverse in the prime reality despite the fact that it lead to his painful demise, rather than shunting him back to his own reality. That's pretty fuckin' brutal.

Of course they aren't the same kind of duplicates as the transporter one, and I wasn't trying to say they were. Just mentioning times when we've seen other instances of a person.

Far more in line with this discussion would be the ENT episode with Sim, the "mimetic simbiot" (i.e. clone) of Charles Tucker III. Dude had all the memories of the original but was straight up harvested for spare parts.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Sim

>>94382194
Ironic, really, that Doctor "won't someone please think of the primitive cave people first!" Phlox is perfectly fine creating a sentient duplicate for parts. The irony is compounded by the fact that his arguments over curing those people is that if they had access to FTL tech the primitive people could be allowed to come into their own because space was no longer at a premium once you can settle on other worlds. Hell, they could have even been given a world of their own if they wanted. The two species could have learned to co-exist as equals, but noooo. That's too easy a way out of his ridiculous moral quandary for ol' Phlox.

>>94380140
>>94380206
>>94380270
How does Thomas Riker change Up the Long Ladder? It's weird that Riker is retroactively made into a murderer. I have to assume the logs were purged

>>94382369
In fairness, Sim wasn’t supposed to be sentient or have memories. That was an unexpected result of the creature he was cloned from interacting with human DNA - apparently humans have a “genetic memory” of sorts. Which meshes well with the Kobali from VOY come to think of it, since a new Kobali is supposed to be a blank slate memory-wise but for some reason humans maintain their memory.

Side note: if I die in the delta quadrant, my body is to be immediately vaporized.

In any event, Sim was supposed to just be a vegetable with only rudimentary brain functions (breathing, blinking, swallowing, etc.), not a person. That wasn’t Phlox’s intentionz

>>94382748
>That wasn’t Phlox’s intentionz
That actually feels worse. Fuck around with techniques you don't understand, which were actually banned by the people who created them, and he found out. But then that was the point of the Delphic Expanse. Everyone was supposed to be tested on how far they'd go. Tucker on how far he'd hate. Archer on how far he'd break all the rules and values. T'Pol on getting crunk 420 blazin' on space rocks so she could feel all the feels.

Mirror Lorca was a fine dude. Best character in the show.

>>94383092
Tucker's shrivening in the Delphic Expanse is legendary; the last child of Florida, voluntarily rejecting its creed and single handedly preparing the human race to take its place in the most successful, stable and enlightened interstellar polity of at least the next thousand years.

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>>94383930
You mean by putting his fuel rod into T'Pol's plasma chamber to pave the way for Spock?

>>94384340
while T'Pol moderates the reaction with Trip's dilithium crystal yes

>>94384367
Manual adjustment of dilithium crystals, while dangerous, does aid in proper firing while engaging the primary thruster.

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>>94383907
1. Pike
2. Airiam
3. Reno

I think they did a good job portraying Starbase 80

>>94383907
In the past maybe, 32nd century had a lot of good people

>>94385541
I can't count Airiam. They only gave her a backstory and made her interesting right before they ganked her. Though I'll grant you that's more than most characters in that show had.

>>94385616
>They only gave her a backstory and made her interesting right before they ganked her
And that's more for me besides anyone but Pike, to be honest

>TQ
New group, will need to get to know one another for a while before I can say.

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>>94378297
>>94378347
>>94378361
>none of them know

>>94380140
>Is it ever firmly established in Trek that transporter clones or other life created by accidents involving transporters, are not afforded the same rights as ordinary people?
It seems that way. Imo the Riker that was the last one to be transported out and left there is definitely the original Riker and the Riker transporter clone is programmed to be a Federation slave.

>>94385955
Oh, I know alright...

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I love her. Spinoff when

>>94388015
"A young El-Aurian is just a REGULAR PERSON!"

>>94388046
Seeing a young El-Aurian was nice. Seems like you always see immortal people when they're 300 years old

>>94388015
I like her, but I don't really like her and the others using the really old Enterprise era uniforms.

>>94389108
Strangely, I love TNG but loved the old uniforms. broad shouldered epaulets over uptight choking gorget

>>94389108
I think they look nice here, but it's a bit silly that in 2382 the only uniforms they could get for them are pre Federation

>>94389410
No replicators do that, I guess?

>>94389410
they showed the tailor shop having a variety of uniforms from other eras.

>>94388015
Maybe the liveaction comedy series will be set here

>>94389749
They either have a horrible attrition rate there, or Starfleet just sends all their dead guy clothing to get drycleaned and they just keep it.

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Was it just me or was Chad the Corndog Vendor a reference to Chazzzzz from Disenchantment?

>>94389804
Ha, was this an epic mispost or is 4chan doing the thing where people's images are being swapped during posting? I missed that bug (feature?). It was fun.

I'd love to know a bit more about Starbase 80 and why it's so overlooked by the bureaucracy. Is it in a dead end of the frontier where Starfleet lost its interest in expanding perhaps because of knife wielding cultures "blocking" the way? Or is it in the interior where it winds up looked over due to its extreme age and admirals always thinking there are better places to direct Starfleet resources? Both rather make sense.

>>94390052
Anon got Chazzed. Pity that show sucked so bad. On paper it sounded awesome. Futurama but for fantasy? It was such a slog to watch.

Since we're talking about /co/ shit does anyone know if they're still doing Trek animation after LD and PRO or is it just done?

>>94389804
I felt it was a reference. I also like how Starbase 80 maintained a healthy, Nietzchean wholesomeness. No replicators? Fine, vendors. No combadges. People have to get up and IRL talk to a wall. Their lives are harder but they are not brainrotted.

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>>94390088
>does anyone know if they're still doing Trek animation after LD and PRO or is it just done?
Nothings been announced as of yet

>>94390071
Yea, it seems like one of those deals where they cut funding and the place keeps working as well as it ever did so they cut funding even more. And they send all the retards there, because some people are too good to courtmartial but not good enough that you can actually rely on them, you need a place for those people to go and have a nominal job. After a certain point it becomes self-perpetuating and anyone who tries to improve it is crushed by the logistical and bureaucratic realities.

>>94390071
I'm assuming it was built to monitor the civil unrest on Acamar in case it spilled over to the Federation borders, but when the Federation realized the Gatherers were poorly equipped pirates they didn't bother upgrading Starbase 80 because even outdated TOS-era tech was more than enough to keep them at bay.

>>94390098
I somehow doubt we'll get anything short of more Short Treks for the immediate future. Paramount just got a new partner but even before that they were clearly downsizing. PRO I can believe got screwed over by different studios failing to get their act together together. Not like Netflix isn't ax happy as it is, right? PIC ended, STD was their flagship baby, though, so I'm surprised they ended it. LD is the one that surprises me. Seemed like it was one of the few that, outside of places like /co/, tended to get strong praise. The humor might not be for everyone (it definitely is not) but it does a pretty good job continuing older canon. Definitely not above complaint. I'm still miffed that they did the Voyager episode but had no Voyager cast members, so basically Voyager arrived back on Earth to the tune of LANDING on Starfleet campus and none of the crew were there. I guess there's some irony there given how the series ended. They got Mulgrew, Beltran, Picardo, Russ, Ryan, McNeil and now Wang stepping into the studios and can't just borrow them to do some special guest lines?

>>94389783
I guess we still dont know. But I dont think Starbase 80 screams vacation spot. Risa seems a bit obvious a setting so I hope it isnt there either

>>94389749
I assume they dont have enough for the entire crew, so its more a novelty than anything.

>>94389675
That's a good point

>>94390071
I think that maybe Starfleet is just at the size where some places fall through the cracks. We see people that know about Starbase 80 but I assume many people dont know it's so bad, or treat it as a rumor.

>>94390462
Show got to season 5, where people start negotiating bigger contracts. I think they just didnt have money to make the show more expensive and decided to can it and then give us the same show in spirit through the comedy. Same with Discovery. Got to S5, can it instead of update contracts, make the same show in spirit through Academy.

>>94391036
At some point Starfleet really does show a major indifference, post scarcity be damned. As O'Brien said, without the Dominion there were a shit ton of station upgrades that would never have gotten done. And that was even after it became a major point of scientific and exploration for an entire unexplored quadrant of the galaxy. They really do suck that much.

Starbase 80, though, might also be due to that treaty they fucked up that gave half control to a non-aligned (?) species. Starfleet is pretty tetchy about even way obsolete tech falling into other hands. See the first scavenger episode with Badgey for instance. Hell, I wonder if that's why they haven't updated the tech on the station either. Can't let the stabby people see newfangled tricorders and combadges. I guess.

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So how well does STA 2e work without the d6s?

>>94380219
Total bollocks. The fact it was possible to reverse the effect doesn't negate the fact that at the time of reversal Tuvok and Neelix did not exist and Tuvix did. Janeway committed an act of murder with the complicity of the crew.

Tuvix is not a medical condition afflicting Tuvok and Nelix, it's explicitly laid out in the episode that he is a distinct entity. The very reason for "the effect Tuvix is having on Kes and others" is that they're in emotional turmoil over the fact of his existence as a distinct being who, despite having some memories and even feelings in common, clearly isn't the person they know and care for. That the accident is reversable doesn't mean the act of reversing it isn't a conscious choice to end one life to restore two already deceased people to life, and if you can justify that you can justify any batshit utilitarian atrocity.

I'll bet you'd have been a camp guard.

>>94389675
The entire station is a retarded premise that exists purely for comedic value and wouldn't exist in a real Star Trek show.

>>94392132
I don't know, with Star Trek's post-scarcity you can have all sorts of weird mini-societies cropping up as human creativity and want goes unfettered to spawn places like medieval land or space cowboy land or "national socialism will work this time on this controlled ethnoplanet I swear" land, or as Tasha Yar can attest, rapist land.

>>94392132
They still fly over a hundred year old ships. They could easily still use something that old. It's also, sadly, easy to imagine Starfleet bureaucracy fucking the place over so royally. You seriously can't imagine some Starfleet post scarcity bean counter looking at requisition forms to update a Starbase that old and saying, "PASS!" Okay, maybe not too sadly. This was a time when Starfleet was rebuilding their fleet back up with alarming regularity. The Borg, the Dominion, the Borg again, that shit that went down in Prodigy.

It IS a nice dream to imagine that all of Starfleet across the board is uniformly awesome, that every ship is as up-to-date and pimped out as their flagship down to the most minor couriers vessels. LD was built around exploring the lowest common denominator. Not sure how some people missed it but it isn't JUST the main cast that are the lower decks, their ship and the entire California class is basically the lower decks of the entire fleet. The unsung work horses that do the shit jobs that have to be done.

And if it's about Starfleet being stupid enough to sign a treaty that gave half of the station to an alien power, I mean some asshole in the diplomatic corps signed off on the Treaty of Armens with the Sheliak. It's also a time period when an admiral, for gods sake, cut a deal with goddamn drug runners supplying the DOMINION with ketracel white! During the war! Because he was convinced the Federation was dying and somehow some radioactive shit that made you a bit younger would somehow solve all their problems.

>>94392594
Kind of makes you wonder if those people who became the Maquis had a point getting the fuck away from the Federation and starting colonies on the very extreme of the frontier.

>>94392106
>Janeway committed an act of murder

no, look I know it's fashionable to blithely repeat shit you hear on fox news right now but it's still dumb

an act of murder requires a criminal standard of guilt be met, which requires both mens rea and actus reus (that the act was committed and that it was committed with intent to do the thing that was done)

there are a number of obvious reasons why Janeway could not by any reasonable standard have committed murder

firstly it is false to claim that Tuvix was alive and Tuvok and Neelix were not; the standards of medical care of the starship Voyager are so high that Tuvok and Neelix were restored without issue and were therefore alive

secondly in order for Tuvix to have been considered as a separate being whose life could be ended, this standard of medical care would have to be non-existent; paradoxically it is the existence of this standard of care which means Tuvix cannot have been murdered, because, inter alia, neither Tuvok nor Neelix at any time expressed a desire for Tuvix to be recreated from them, or even alongside them, both Tuvok and Neelix recalled their time as part of the Tuvix entity, longstanding Federation medical practice and law requires the reintegration of original crewmembers (such as James Kirk, the command crew of DS9, B'Elanna Torres) when affected by transporter accidents which cause medical harm to the original transportee(s), etc

>>94392106
>>94392941
thirdly Janeway did not commit an act which resulted in a net loss of life but (per the aforementioned transporter law/guidance) restored her two original crewmembers and, as a result of this act, no criminal complaint was ever made since neither Tuvok nor Neelix, both of whom had been part of the Tuvix entity, considered an act of murder or manslaughter to have taken place nor did any other member of Voyager's crew nor the Federation/Starfleet when contact was reestablished some years later; Neelix might not have known the law but Tuvok certainly did and would not have been intimidated out of making the relevant complaint

fourthly even if the act of reducing the Tuvix entity to its constituent entities was considered to have ended a life under Federation law or Starfleet regulations, it was not Janeway's intent to commit murder as the act was clearly meant to preserve two of her crew at the expense of a third; this is no different to a captain ordering one crewmember to their death to save the lives of others or preserve the ship itself (even a technical specialist, like a chief engineer) which we know is part of command training in Starfleet (and other services irl); without the intent to commit murder, the act of murder is not made and at best it is manslaughter

fifthly as no intent was present there can have been no unlawful killing; Tuvix was not protected by separate statutes (such as war crimes legislation by the wearing of his uniform and membership of Starfleet) and was subject to the command of Voyager; had Tuvix chosen to leave Voyager prior to this incident and resigned whatever commission legally remained (from the Tuvok element of his being) then the situation would have been very different, but Tuvix chose to remain on Voyager and subject, as he would have known, to the captain's orders and interpretation of Federation law, Starfleet regulation and the needs of the crew and ship

>>94392132
The galaxy is very large, the idea that one station could fall by the wayside is easy to believe. Especially if it's in deep space

>>94392941
You are dumb son.
>it's false to claim that tuvix was alive and tuvok and Neelix were not
That's just a material fact, there's nothing to argue. After the accident Tuvix existed and Tuvvy and Nelly didnt, existance is a prerequisite for life.
>to be considered a separate being
It identified itself as a separate being. The idea that self identificiation is suddenly not a thing in Star Trek is nonsense
>Mens Rea
Janeway's personal debate about the issue definitely confirms Mens Rea. It's not enough to think that it's necessary or expedient to avoid Mens Rea, a lack of Men's Rea. Your arguements here might speak to different levels of responsibility (sort of the difference between Manslaughter and murder) but Janeway definitely intentionally destroyed a living sapient being.
>Actus Rea
She definitely did or commanded the action.

it is definitely an interesting case but your arguement focuses on Tuvok and Neelix because it falls apart once you recognize that Tuvix is a living sapient being (with all the duty of care those entail in regular star fleet medicine) it stops being clear at all what should happen. In more or less no regular case will star fleet medicine kill a sapient living creature that they can avoid. If you want to consider what Janeway did an extended emergency fine but you're arguing that Will and Thomas Riker should have been forceably recombined (afterall what if Thomas was some Psychological separation of the prime riker instead of a complete Reflection).

>>94392944
>unlawful killing
Of course not, Janeway was the captain of the boat. Any killing she commands would be lawful due to the state of emergency despite that lasting basically 7 years and there being no obvious threat to janeway except the loss of a close friend.
>Tuvix choose
To act with dignity? Obviously a teleporter aberration worthy of extermination.

I would have liked to see a full access to the wonders of Star Trek Medical deal with the problem the second time around.

>>94393578
To tie in after the 2000 letter nonsense
>Star Fleet has a 72 hour takebacksie rule with Teleporter Accidents
It seems strange. I sort of wonder what they would do if they didn't have a 'monster of the week' format to uphold with weekly resets. I feel like the extent that the lower deck merges attempted to refuse separation only speaks to their sapience and independance from the original beings.

But ultimately that all gets swept away at the end of the episode because the use of teleporters as a medical tool instead of just a contrivance is more or less verbotten in star trek. Given resources, I would probably split all three out myself. I feel like if we can treat fucking holograms respectfully we can do the same to Neelix.

>NooOOooOOoo you can't just use teleporters to reset the aged part of your DNA despite obviously having the ability to do so or in the reverse of the neelix example sorta using it to create infinite backups for Barclay so the sprout can stop being so damn nervous.
I would definitely be in Star Trek prison for illegal Augmentation and offbrand Teleporter use.

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>>94388166
Hence my desire to have a young Douwd recurring NPC if I can ever wrangle together a group.

>>94392941
>firstly it is false to claim that Tuvix was alive and Tuvok and Neelix were not; the standards of medical care of the starship Voyager are so high that Tuvok and Neelix were restored without issue and were therefore alive
Again, by that logic if Q shows up, snaps his fingers, kills Worf but restores his dead Klingon parents to life via his genetic information, it's because Mogh and Unnamed-Wife-of-Mogh were alive the whole time?

>in order for Tuvix to have been considered as a separate being whose life could be ended
I'm going to stop you here because the episode itself does not make any bones about the fact that Tuvix is a separate being whose life is being ended. The episode itself is VERY CLEAR that this is happening, up to and including having a character (The Doctor) directly state it. So this entire paragraph is just fundamentally flawed from the get-go.

>Janeway did not commit an act which resulted in a net loss of life
I don't think any definition of murder ever used by any society has required there be a "net loss of life".

>it was not Janeway's intent to commit murder as the act was clearly meant to preserve two of her crew at the expense of a third
So someone who kills someone for their kidneys or bone marrow in order to save someone else's life, has not committed murder according to you?

>this is no different to a captain ordering one crewmember to their death to save the lives of others or preserve the ship itself
It's very different, given that the ship is not in any actual danger and the two people she's trying to "save" are, by any sane medical definition, dead, unless you think Mogh and Mogh's wife aren't dead.

>Tuvix was not protected by separate statutes
No, just the same statutes that were supposedly protecting Tom Paris, or Janeway herself.

>>94393623
I forgot about the douwd...

>>94392629
That's kind of the thing with Starfleet. They are monumentally wasteful at times. The Stargazer, we saw, was perfectly serviceable enough despite all it had been through. Voyager was still serviceable too but they decided to turn it into a tourist attraction instead. Per STP (yeah, I know, it's dogshit) Starfleet has vast decommissioning yards. Not enough to save everyone on Romulus but a fair number. Geordi and his kids alone frankensteined two Galaxy-Class together and rebuilt the Ent-D.

It's funny when one considers things like Cassidy running her ship on antiquated tech. All those Starfleet ships going to waste in space. Not the first time. There was that ship depot yard in TNG where the Romulans nicked the Vulcan ships they used. There's a lot of good people could do with those ships. But it's Starfleet's proprietary tech and they don't like to share.

>>94394425
I never did, and specifically never forgot that Uxbridge called himself “a” Douwd and made it clear he was one member of a whole species of demigods.

I posted about her a few threads back, and I did some digging and found my original post suggesting her from back in 2019.

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94046071/#94156127

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/65259879/#65293003

The main point with Danica is that she is no threat at all. Any “episode” (or RPG session) with her should be pretty much guaranteed to have a body count of 0.

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>>94374469
Prodigy Season 2 is retarded

>>94395217
I actually like the idea of a godlike being enlisting in Starfleet, sent on a kind of "rumspringa" among the mere mortals to learn what it's like, live as that species did pre-ascension, and basically see if they prefer to live their life concerned with mortal things or to join the rest in secluded "god"hood.

I think I prefer depowered, though I could also like the idea that the person is fully powered... but at that age they basically only have access to Cantrip.

>"Ensign Demigod, security is being devoured by that rampaging snorlax, use your super god magic to help them!"
>the ensign proceeds to wave her hands to call on all her power and produces glowing letters in midair that spell out, "GOOD JOB, TEAM! YOU GOT THIS!"

The problem is if the person is low powered you just know someone will technobabble a means of power boosting the individual. On the other hand even if they are de-powered it is equally possible a lazy writer would technobabble a means of temporarily restoring full power. Using the "phase flux graviton emitter to generate and capture Strange Energy" to saturate the person's dormant "god matrix" thereby achieving a temporary ascension state. "Like attaching jumper cables on a good battery then attaching the leads to someone's nipples!"

Yeah, sure.

>>94395311
What was stupid was breaking all kinds of treaties to create a ship with illegal as fuck mods to throw in a time hole and poke a bunch of psychos who they knew wiped out themselves (nearly) and nearly wiped out Starfleet. Throwing the evidence of said illegal activity into a star was actually the smart thing to do under the circumstances. Smarter would have been to take whoever came up with the scheme in the first place and chuck them into the star.

>>94392629
I dont really buy that the California Class or at the very least the Cerritos is the bottom rung of Starfleet. For starters, no way the Oberth or Miranda is more prestigious, but even beyond that the ship's feats are starting to pile up, and this mission of checking on dimensional rifts doesnt feel like a mission the season 1 Cerritos would still have after learning the rifts are being made on purpose.

IMO the moment this ship successfully negotiated their way out of the diplomatic incident at DS9 it stopped being a nobody ship

>>94395704
That's one of the series' biggest flaws, honestly, the posturing that they're bottom-tier and that nobody cares about a California-class, yadda yadda, and then they're shown to, with increasing regularity, be just as involved in major political shake-ups and 'big events' as Kirk, Picard, Janeway or Sisko. They're not even really "Lower Decks", to be honest, any more than Nog, Wesley or Tom Paris were.

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>>94395704
>>94395750
Nobody said nobody cares about the California-Class. They're clearly still in demand. The point was they get no respect and are left making do with substandard and aging systems because Starfleet prefers to crank out new shinies like the Protostar. It's institutionalized neglect, and it's hardly anything new. All big organizations have it to one degree or another.

And the show does indeed acknowledge the shittiness of other vessels. Doctor T'Ana ranting that she didn't spend "seven fucking years on a goddamn Oberth to get knocked down to station physician." The Cerritos was her coming up in the world from an Oberth.

But then as the show also points out, Lt. JG is still lower decks, it's just slightly less shitty than Ensign work.

Also goddamn dude, Nog was lower decks as fuck. Dude was just a Boimler about doing the work efficiently. Dude once crawled through who knows how much of the station's innards just to find Kira's earring, but that's just being a good Ferengi. It never hurts to suck up to the boss. Meanwhile Wesley was nepo as fuck, and Tom Paris along with Harry Kim were considered senior staff. Voyager was hardly operating under normal conditions, which is why the shit work Tom didn't want to do was stuff like him being the ship's nurse. And while I'm the one who brought him up, you can't tell me Harry wasn't still getting the short end of the stick even when he's putting in all this extra work trying to perfect slipstream and building an astrometrics lab along with crap like trying to make a new EMH and building the Delta Flyer.

>>94395750
They definitely were at the start of the series. Even being at the center of the whole Pakled thing was a complete accident, not deliberate.

We’ve just been watching the Cerritos get promoted alongside her crew, I guess.

>>94395877
Makes sense. The California classes are now outdated and the crews for them largely seen as being of tertiary importance to Starfleet. However, just because a ship is getting along in years, the crew and happenstance can always make a ship better than what its specs or perceived importance are.

>>94391954
Bumping this

>>94391036
>Show got to season 5, where people start negotiating bigger contracts. I think they just didnt have money to make the show more expensive and decided to can it and then give us the same show in spirit through the comedy. Same with Discovery. Got to S5, can it instead of update contracts, make the same show in spirit through Academy.

Wasn't there a similar formalised issue back in the day involving syndication. Where some studio's would can a show before it became valid for it or something?

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>>94395453

>Smarter would have been to take whoever came up with the scheme in the first place and chuck them into the star.

Oh come on, if they started doing that every time someone in starfleet made a blisteringly illegal starship with ethically unsound technology then there soon wouldn't be any Admirals left!

Can you imagine a Starfleet without Admirals?

>>94399095
Starfleet's admiralty board is a baffling thing, because it doesn't make sense that such a society should be able to flourish with such astoundingly incompetent and corrupt leadership. They're either retarded or evil but somehow they're the creme de la creme of a utopian post-scarcity society?

>>94399095
>>94400451
It's fun to poke fun at evil admirals, but it's not something actually supported by the episodes because most flag officers shown are just doing their jobs. Rule of drama means they're only going to be prominent if they're doing something wrong, and it proves itself because you mostly remember the admirals who are doing something wrong and not the others who only pop up to give the main characters the plot of the day.

"The Pegasus" is an obvious example. You remember the evil asshole admiral violating treaties, but you don't remember the other admiral who shows up at the start because she's just doing her job normally with no bullshit.

>>94399095
The weird one was didn't they imply that Admiral Picard signed off on this lunatic scheme? I wonder if ex-Admiral Pressman would laugh of cry.

The bit I hate is that Romulus is gone, the Romulan Empire is defunct, and yet somehow the Treaty of Algernon persists and won't let the Federation use cloaks. That's per-STP, not PRO, which took place before Romulus went up in smoke.

>>94402383
I always figured the Federation tossed that into the treaty because they didn't give a shit about cloaking, since they've developed a dozen different ways to get around cloaking. They want their enemies to know where their big guns are in plain sight for deterrence.

>>94400451

They're not Leadership. The Starfleet Admiralty Board exists as a way for the people actually in charge of Starfleet to promote lunatic captains up and out of the captains chair before they start a war. Something even making them admiral and forcing a desk job onto them doesn't always prevent.

>>94402443

Didn't they use cloaking in Insurrection? So presumably the treaty is only for Starships being cloaked.

>>94402462
I'm not sure Insurrection counts considering how skeezy that whole operation was. But then the whole movie had some bad writing, as far as I'm concerned. The fact that while the Dominion War was still ongoing Riker and Troi didn't know what Ketracel White was and just considered it a narcotic as opposed to that admiral being in bed with Dominion allies.

>>94399082
Disney Channel and Disney TVA specifically would can shows right before they hit 100 episodes, since that was a benchmark where higher residuals kicked in for all episodes. The first Disney channel show to break 100 episodes was That's So Raven, since it was so incredibly popular.

>>94402710
No idea how this plays out with streaming and the modern short season. I figure they're mostly desperate for some kind of material to produce, though I don't think the Tawny Newsome show has been greenlit, it's just in the "idea development" stage - or something like that. Not really a lot to look forward to incoming. A Starfleet Academy show? Not a bad idea. Starfleet Academy in the post Burn future? Fuck that noise, who asked for that!? The less said about that S31 crap the better.

SNW is... something. Hardly as bad as STD, and it has its moments. Still not sure what the fuck they are doing with the vulcan teaser. I hate how over the top effective they're shown to be. I'm hoping it will be revealed that it's some kind of unstable combination of human and vulcan. Effective, perhaps, but breaking down. Somehow I doubt it. Oh maybe the breaking down bit for drama as they race to cure the condition, but such a human/vulcan mishmash flies in the face of them making jokes of rubbing Spock's human "impurity" in his face. Still what bugs me is they SHOULD be suffering because you can't inject logic in a syringe. Vulcans practice their whole lives to suppress their emotions, which burn hotter than a human's.

I suppose we'll find out soon(ish).

>>94392632
Or maybe the Maquis are just one of those "weird mini-societies"? Their gimmick is "we're all rugged individualists who are way better than those communist milksops on Earth and we've all got much, MUCH bigger dicks, too, like WAY bigger!" instead of being cowboys or Nazis or Irish stereotypes.

>>94395443
I vaguely remember there was a novel or potentially a trilogy of novels where one of the characters is like a half-Q or some equally powerful species.

The only part I read was opening it at random to the demigod character in question pulling a lazily written bullshit sequence of using their dormant god powers through sheer will or some shit like that.

>>94403936

So they're all Robert E Howards?

>>94403975
Well, like I’ve said, I see Danica as more of an antagonist, albeit one who is pretty low-stakes. Of course, “low stakes” doesn’t mean no potential for drama. I just mean that she isn’t the type to, for example, send a starship careening thousands of lightyears so that they run into the Borg, resulting in the deaths of over a dozen people. And she hasn’t (and won’t) suffer anything that makes her want to kill with a thought. Her lowest moments will just be self-doubt over her skills as a chameleon or missing being with Starfleet.

>Uhlan Danica: “I can’t believe you saw through this disguise. I don’t even look like I used to.”
>Crewmember: “We didn’t see through the disguise so much as you kept dropping hints that it was you.”
>Danica: “I missed you guys.”
>Crewmember: “Also you didn’t even change your name.”
>Danica: “I thought I wouldn’t have to. ‘Danica’ is a Romulan name too. Ugh…I should just go back to pretending to be a rock. No one ever interrogates rocks. Rocks never have to prove they’re rocks.”
>Crewmember: “Why don’t you just…be you? Why do Douwd even go through all this trouble pretending to be Humans and Romulans and such?”
>Danica: “Because the universe is vast and wonderful and full of so much to see and do…we could stay in the higher planes and just watch like some of the others, but watching isn’t as fulfilling as BEING. Not for us. I spent a million years as a higher-dimensional entity of thought and energy who could forge planes and dissolve black holes…I spent twenty-four years as a human who got a scar on her knee from climbing a tree when she was eight. I know which one was more fulfilling. Even if it did end bad and now I’m pretending to be a Romulan. But that’s fun too.”
>Crewmember: “Although you skipped a bit this time around.”
>Danica: “Look, promise you won’t tell the Subcommander? I really want this to work this time.”
>Crewmember: “Sure.”

>>94404725
They're called Roberts-Howard, like surgeons-general or brothers-in-law. But yes

>>94403975
The New Frontier series with Peter David has a character who is freaky good at math and piloting. Turns out he's descended from Apollo and Carolyn Palamas. As I recall he fucks off in non-corporeal form and dies on the way back to his home planet.

>>94405886
Is that the series with the hermat species as well? I think I read those years ago.

>>94407702
Pretty sure, yeah.

>>94381213
Don't they explicitly say it disassembles then re-assembles you after your atoms go through a wormhole?
That shit kills you, my dude. That's why there are in-universe characters that insist on only using shuttles.

>>94408524
Nope. You can even be conscious in the matter stream.
https://youtu.be/Cqkxd1eRsy0?t=8

>>94408524
People prefer shuttles because this shit can happen. It's rare, sure, but you only need to hear about it once to be extremely iffy about the whole process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro_QpDJX-Sk

>>94408593
How does shit like that happen? Are there actual canon numbers? Shuttles seem equally dangerous from the shows - they go down all the time.

>>94408729
>How does shit like that happen?
I mean, any technology can fail.

>Are there actual canon numbers?
Of accidents? Yeah, actually. In the episode where Barclay talks about his transporter phobia ("Realm of Fear")

>LAFORGE: Reg, how many transporter accidents have there been in the last ten years? Two? Three? There are millions of people who transport safely every day without a problem.

>>94408908
It's funny because there had actually been more transporter accidents than that on the past six years on the Enterprise-D alone.

>>94408908
>I mean, any technology can fail.

Of course, absolutely. Sorry, I mistyped. I meant to say "how often does shit like that happen?"

>>94408914
There's actually only five across TNG: "Rascals", "Realm of Fear", "Second Chances", "Data's Day", and "The Next Phase" (and the one in "Data's Day" wasn't even a real accident, it was faked).

>>94408942
Is stuff like Rascal's even a transporter accident? I feel like having to beam someone out of spatial whackery isn't really the transporters fault. Like some of the stuff on DS9. Quark and Odo crash on a planet because they tried to beam away a bomb and it exploded in the pattern buffer, taking out the shuttle's systems, or the Bashir James Bond ep where they beamed people away while the shuttle was exploding. In many of these instances they're lucky the transporter worked at all. Some might see this as splitting hairs, but I consider the context important. There are instances where the transporter wasn't at fault. Technically even duping Riker and Boimler, the transporter did exactly what it was supposed to do. It's a very weird circumstance but the fact that it was able to materialize both people safely is a miracle, not a mistake.

>>94409209
It's more an "incident" than accident.

>>94409209
>>94408914
LaForge being one of the more competent TNG officers and having spent a lot of time with Data may well have either ignored x-factor incidents (ship exploding, magic shit in the buffer) or simply repeated a statistic he heard Data say which also ignored those types of incidents.

This is a reasonable assumption as the Enterprise-D is far from the only ship or station in the fleet that suffers from transporter problems and even limiting the problem to Federation transporters, and the rate of incidence is clearly high for those non-standard operational reasons. But if you exclude them then two or three in ten years is extremely reasonable - it's not zero, which it could never be because of operator error on functional systems and unforeseeable failures of equipment, even with multiple layers of safeguards, but it's very very low for this safety obsessed culture's main mode of moving personnel around. That's got to be quadrillions of transports with accidents in single figures.

>>94409371
I see what you mean, though I don't personally buy it. LaForge is way too... Well, a lot of things. Studious, experimental, even boastful of the ship's systems and how he has them working the best in the fleet. He may not be up to Scotty's transportertism, but he's no slouch. As a consequence, though, I imagine he would indeed ignore incidents that don't involve the equipment itself as the primary source of the fault. The equipment worked perfectly, it was just employed under conditions that it either wasn't designed to account for or which defy being accounted for.

>>94409371
>>94411712
It's like a plane crashing because it ran into freak unexplained turbulence that nobody was at fault for, versus a plane crashing because Boeing fucked up the software again.

>>94380161
He's not a clone. He is effectively a twin created at the moment of the accident, which is why he retained his rank. I'm sure it created an interesting precedent in Federation law.

>>94413291
I think what’s more interesting is that not once does anyone on the Enterprise seem to think that Tom shouldn’t be treated as an independent person with full rights. Like even before any formal Federation laws or anything were taken into account, everyone just seemed to understand what the Right Thing to Do was.

Anyway, the person I was arguing with has since gone completely silent, so I guess we chalk this up as a win for basic human decency and/or actually doing damn research on an episode before you start to use it as evidence of why it’s okay to murder people.

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>>94412224
Meh, too small. Wake me when S31 reactivates pic related and welds it to a starship to pilot it around.

>>94412224
Love that artist, shame they put their profile on private.

>>94413472
Never speak of S31 again.

>>94413672
What about Section 32?

>>94413699
That old Academy alumnus club for retired Admirals? What about it?

>>94413704
it decompressed before emergency force fields could come online :(

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>>94413672
>blinks sequentially in your direction to make your holo matrix collapse

>>94413704
Anyone else think it's weird how their Sections are right next to each other and there's a revolving door between them?

How many people think Zefram Cochrane faked the first warp flight? Maybe it was a Vulcan plot to take over Earth.

>>94413291
we're discussing him as a "clone" in the sense of "exact duplicate," not "genetically identical individual produced through the process of cloning." i thought that was clear, but it's good to clarify.

>>94414405
I get that. My point is that he's as much the original as Will is. He wasn't created in the accident; they both were.

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>>94414405
As others replied to that up above they don't know who the duplicate is. To each of them the other is the copy, only Will got to continue on with his life while Thomas got to live his hobo dreams humping into a pile of mash potatoes he called Imzadi. I prefer Farscape rules. Both equal and original. A "twinning".

>>94414312
How does a guy even get a PhD in post-apocalyptic rural Montana? it's not like you can have universities without a functional economy and most of the dead would have been in the cities that were nuked no later than ten years before his flight. And I'll tell you this for nothing, building it out of titanium? Impossible. Never mind building an engine that has sufficient power to warp space to permit faster than light travel, you just wouldn't find that much titanium in Montana and the nearest domestic producer is 1700 miles of chuds and junkie soldiers away through irradiated wastelands in suburban Cleveland so it's not like there's going to be a warehouse to raid or a good trade route for it. That's shadow government involvement for sure, and they sold us out to the Vulcans who've been on earth since the 1950s and the Cardassians who've been on earth since the 1890s and the Xindo who've been on earth since the 2000s. He probably wasn't even human, there's no record of him dying and he just kind of disappears one day when nobody's looking and that whole thing of him being "helped" by mysterious super-scientists and engineers who just appeared out of thin air one day is barely even a cover story. Fake PhD, fake history, fake discovery.

The Ferengi paid him to do it.

>>94415725
He won his diploma in a card game, like every self-respecting conman.

>>94415765
A CARD GAME AGAINST A DISGUISED TIME TRAVELLING CARDASSIAN???!?!

This whole Federation was concocted by the Ferengi who knew that if humanity became an interstellar commercial player the Ferengi Alliance would be bought out from under its founders in a matter of a century. Look at the boomers! They had a successful interstellar economy going and could even afford brand-new warp engines but the Ferengi introduced free food and medicine to human culture to prey on our greed via their proxy species the Vulcans.

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>>94415838
I mean let's be honest, no Cardie is going to have the Heart of the Cards.

>>94416100
I’m trying to decide if Cardassians would like games of chance on average. Given their preference for mystery stories to basically already be solved from the start, they don’t strike me as people who like randomness.

I wonder how they’d feel about Candyland. Who wins is completely dependent on a random shuffling of the deck at the start of the game, but once it’s been shuffled the winner is set in stone. Candyland seems like a game Cardassians would love.

>>94417984
Cardassians like dabo and betting on vole fights. I think they like chance as a modifier for demonstrating their own skill or cunning.

>>94417984
Cardassians have a card game which is known as Cardassian pinochle per Tuvok, though why it's called that is a mystery as the game is never expanded on.

Human pinochle is a needlessly complicated game that requires two normal decks of cards to play (but not all the cards from both decks, only 24 from each) and is filled with deliberately confusing terminology and card-worth orders and a points-scoring system separate to the order-values of the cards, as well as an auction system to declare the dominant suit (in case of ties). It is very Cardassian, and emerged sometime in the 19th century when Gul Dukat was masquerading as New Orleans resident Frederick La Roque in his obsessive quest to destroy the Sisko lineage before Joseph Sisko could meet Sarah, as part of a Krenim-backed plot in association with Seska, Sela, Future Guy and Reverse Mirror Universe Daniels, who is from the past and also goes by Berlinghoff Rasmussen, Zephram Cochrane and a variety of other obviously made-up names.

>>94417984
>>94418041
I think that they would prefer games that were hard to predict but nominally deterministic, I think it tickles their intellects, but they would dismiss dice games or normal card games as being too simplistic and beneath them.
>>94418349
Quality post.

>>94418349
Love the lore on this.

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>>94421690
But anon didn't even mention Lore!

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Apparently this was one of the earliest sketches for the Enterprise (or whatever it was to be called at the time) and honestly I kind of like it, maybe not as a Starfleet ship but a fairly early non-governmental warp ship design. Really I just want more warp-capable designs used by civilians, make the universe more fleshed out in general

>>94417984
>Given their preference for mystery stories to basically already be solved from the start
This feels like a joke by Peter Allan Fields given he worked on Columbo

>>94421850
Shut up Lore, no one likes you.

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>>94423639

>>94418391
>likes fixed results
>Dislikes randomness
I think they would love casinos but hate coin flips.

>>94403713
>I figure they're mostly desperate for some kind of material to produce,
Why don't they just hire some decent sci-fi writers and make a 5 season bible and run with it.
>Alternatively pitch your seasons
I would have A human with anger issues, a half vulcan/klingon/star child who is surprisingly well put together and an oddball character (thinking something from the star fleet battles canon, perhaps an old school andorian/tellarite or even something strange like lyrians/tholians/ old school orion ,etc. ). They're in the equivalent of grad school for Teleporter and Hologram mechanics (hapa and strangeling) and a masters in business administration (human) who have been expulsed on threat of imprisonment after a deadly accident but 100% are going to do their best to clear their name (season 1 mystery is identifying what actually happened, probably romulans or unexpected phasic interactions) and take off in a prototype 'holographic' ship that has next to no weapons but 100% star fleet extra fuckery and they must learn to both operate as a crew, solve their own issues (the human having anger issues, the Hapa motivation/fear issues, the strangeling a desire to be accepted/authenticity issues) and deal with the wierdness that is star trek space. They end up on the fringes of federation space and although they begin as staunch feddies/empirists they actually only thrive once they get out of that framework.

>>94425744
>Why don't they just hire some decent sci-fi writers and make a 5 season bible and run with it.
What are you, crazy? You'd never make it in showbiz with this kind of cowboy attitude.

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>>94425744
>Why don't they just hire some decent sci-fi writers and make a 5 season bible and run with it.
5 seasons, you say?

>>94426222
yeah! having an actual cogent storyline and arcs that allows you to know roughly where you are going is CRAZY talk! we need weekly crunch time and panicked random staff writers rotating through a writing room with zero idea of the IP pushing their individual idpol via the IP so that every character comes out looking schizophrenic and no story ever makes any sense in the series! and we have to hire writers by skin colour and by who they bonk. that way our actual episodes will be shittily written by total retards! and anyone complains? we get to scream at them!.

>>94426847
Now you're cooking the Kurtzman way!

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>>94417984
>The deck has already been shuffled, all that remains to be done is deal the cards. You see, doctor, the game is not about seeing who wins. Oh no, the true purpose of playing the game is seeing precisely how everyone loses.

>>94380189
There's nothing that states or implies that anywhere in the episode, though based off what we know of the Cardassian's tender care it's not a huge stretch to say the Federation may not have fought as hard what they view as a clone.
I wish we found out what happened to him during the Dominion War. Was he still just rotting in prison? Did they try to convert him into a double agent since he's identical to Riker? Did the Founders have him executed? There are so many things you could have done with that.

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what are the mainline comics even doing anymore

>>94403713
They arent desperate for material to produce, they're desperate to cast a wide net. I dont even think that's bad, Discovery, Picard, SNW, Lower Decks and Prodigy were a good 5 show combo that cast a wide net while still feeling somewhat cohesive, regardless of what you think of any of them.

But now we have SNW, Starfleet Academy and Untitled Comedy, and that doesnt feel like a group of shows that fits. We'll have to find out about the other two first though.

>>94425744
What's funny is the shows that had the most planned out are the two animated shows they cancelled

>>94395750
Voyager was a prestigious ship but wasnt really special in the eyes of Starfleet until after it got all it's feats. I'd say the Cerritos is on that level, but instead of representing Starfleet in deep space they're in the middle of knows space around everyone else. And you're right that the ship has been at the middle of a lot of political shakeups. Freeman was at the centre of the trial of the destruction of Pakled Planet, assuming people in the Federation like to keep informed, she should be a known entity.

>>94427754
why does James Doohan always look lost in IDW art

>>94427754
>they're desperate to cast a wide net. I dont even think that's bad
That's called quantity over quality, and it's pretty damn bad at least how they've done it. Sure it's no guarantee things'll suck, but odds are good that quality slips when you are cranking out more shit than you have vision and capable people to write that vision. Of course since tastes vary, I'm sure there are people that like them all, just as there are some people who prefer STD and PIC. Regardless the series have certainly been quite divisive.

>>94400451
It's like the Guardians of the Universe in Green Lantern. Lorewise they're these ultra-wise immortals with infallible judgment, practically all they do is create problems for other people to solve and rules for the loose-cannon Earth Lanterns to righteously break.

>>94412224
USS Biggus Dickus

>>94423639
Extremely soulful. The big 2 is interesting, though... even that early it wasn't meant to be the first of its kind.

>>94428043
> and it's pretty damn bad
You’ve never heard the phrase “quantity has a quality all of its own”?

Mel Brooks comedies tend to work on quantity over quality. Blazing Saddles, Men in Tights, Spaceballs, The Producers, they all throw as many jokes at you as possible so that even if one joke doesn’t land we’ve already moved on to the next one. Given that I’ve just named four of the funnies movies to ever come out of Hollywood, I think it shows that sheer volume over careful crafting can work.

>>94428511
>quantity has a quality all of its own
Nobody says that, except perhaps The Kurtz and Co. Also your example is shite. For instance:

The Producers: 1967

Spaceballs: 1987

Men In Tights: 1993

Blazing Saddles: 1974

>>94428511
This kind of thinking gave us the modern MCU.

>>94428511
You're referring to quantity within an individual product, which can work depending on the product. Your examples do not work when it comes to quantity of products overall, as >>94428576 shows. Franchise media budgets are not infinite, therefore throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks can result in there not being enough crap left over for the good sticky crap.

>>94428610
Would that be the modern MCU that just had yet another billion-dollar blockbuster this past summer?

>>94428970
Yes, the modern MCU that needed Ryan Reynolds and Fox to get anyone to give a shit about them. That MCU.

>>94428993
The one that roasted the MCU post-Endgame for being "miss after miss after miss".

>>94428043
Trek has done it far better than say, Star Wars or the MCU. The shows have been divisive but the franchise seemed consistent and healthy before the Paramount Merger and I could point to a fanbase all of the other shows had. Plus, there was a space carved out for traditional trek.

SNW and LD together are a good pairing of traditional trek shows, but SNW by itself cant carry the traditional trek banner by itself. It's seeped in Discovery aesthetics for starters.

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>>94425249

>>94429033
Except MCU post-endgame also has No Way Home as a movie that cleared $1 billion (in fact it nearly got to $2 billion) and has had multiple movies that cleared $750 million (Multiverse of Madness, Love & Thunder, Wakanda Forever, Guardians Vol. 3), so "miss after miss after miss" is clearly not actually true. Even with failures like The Marvels or Quantumania, the MCU is still firmly in the black, and obviously taking steps to remain that way given that they've heard fans disliking the Kang storyline and so have changed direction in favor of Dr. Doom.

>>94429538
you're utterly delusional. SNW and LD are just as fuckawful as STD and Pickle'd. NONE of Nu Trek is anything except a fucking insult to Trek and retarded fucking assholes wiping their asses with the IP.
YOU are full stockholm syndrome, battered wife crazy. total brainwashed NPC.

>>94429606
So your rebuttal is Sony-Man and Ryan Reynolds deploying maximum Fox nostalgia, while downplaying the vastly underperforming box office flicks relative to earlier installments of the MCU and the parade of streaming flops in D+. The cope is real, but also off-topic to a Star Trek thread.

>>94429538
Hard to say it's consistent and healthy. STD was their flagship show but was cancelled. PIC finally had to finally Engage the memberberries after the earlier seasons explicitly tried to avoid the look and feel of earlier Trek. PRO wasn't renewed. LD is cancelled, too. This was all pre-agreement with their new financial partner, btw. SNW will continue, but their only new projects are a god awful Starfleet Academy of the 31st and a Half Century and a monumentally derided Section 31 film, which is diminished form the original intentions for the project to have an episodic format. Tawny Newsome is talking up a potential live action show, but it hasn't been greenlit thus she appears to be trying to drum up fan support, probably hoping it might sway the network.

Oh and maybe JJ will make a new Trek film, this time about the founding of the Federation. Even if it takes place in the Kelvinverse since it predates the Kelvin incident that caused the timelines to diverge it'll be the canon founding for the Federation in the Prime timeline too. Enjoy.

>>94429671
Lower Decks is plainly made by people who love Star Trek. The only way you couldn't pick up on this would be if you hadn't seen it, and if you're not watching it then you can't possibly know what you're talking about.

>>94429918
My rebuttal is that post-endgame MCU still has demonstrably more hits than misses in spite of what /tv/ and /co/ try to tell you, and no amount of memes will change that.

>>94429999
I mean one need only look at the lack of general hype for the MCU, which you'd notice if you did look beyond /tv/ and /co/ (which is basically the same damn thing these days). Even with the pandemic as an excuse the films were under-performing based on pre-Endgame box office tallies. Sequilitus is a hard sell given the number of sequels leading up to their throwdown with super Grimace. The critics no longer love them, and the fan scores have gotten particularly brutal. Even the STUDIO admits it's a problem, with Iger scaling back on the sheer number of MCU films and streaming shows per year.

I swear whatever blinders you are wearing has been money well spent. You even try to handwave away the whole Kang thing which was supposed to be their next big unified event they were building up to, only for them to trot out the return of Robert Downey Jr. as Doom with all the subtlety of Kennedy announcing that somehow Palpatine has returned. These are desperate course corrections ordered by the crew of the Titanic while you sit in a lounge chair sipping a mai tai and claiming icebergs aren't real and if they are they're not significant.

>>94423639
man i was looking at this image of a weird spindle for like 15 seconds before i realized it's actually a space ship

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Speaking of the Kelvinverse this exchange was amusing. Also got to love that shit eating look on PineKirk's face.

>>94430157
It was an amusing issue. Scotty's backhand way of commenting on the number of tubes in the JJ Enterprise's engineering, Crusher telling Urban McCoy his alternate self lived to 125. Tom Paris even gets in a lensflare quip.

>>94429671
The show nicknames dont make you sound smarter

>>94429961
the merger issues are a years long thing though, all of the shows got affected by the fact that Paramount Plus wasnt in trouble. In the end it went on for around 7 years and all the shows basically ended the same time. Prodigy is the only one that seems like an actual failure.

Discovery and Lower Decks ended early but also, 5 seasons is longer than anything else in the mainstream right now.

>>94430157
It's cool that they're playing around with the fact that there's two Scottys

...but this happens before the Hobus exploding right? Meaning this entire crew is going to learn that Spock is trapped in the Kelvin timeline before he even makes it?

>>94430219
The merger with Skydance was only announced July this year. I wouldn't confuse the negotiations process, which was conducted with several different entities interested in either merging with or outright acquiring Paramount, and the deal as inked and signed. This doesn't negate the fact that Paramount+ definitely has the appearance of downsizing right now. What changes the merger brings are unknown quantities right now.

>...but this happens before the Hobus exploding right?
Probably. Time is iffy right now given the nature of events and Sela is, to my knowledge, dealing with the threat to Romulus in the Defiant series. By the time they get back and set right what once went wrong it may be too late, assuming Sisko would even try to use any knowledge he gains anyway. Temporal Prime Directive and all that. I don't think the specifics of how Spock wound up there were fully touched upon.

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>>94430266
The comic is also non-canon as fuck, but that's more or less beside the point given /stg/. Games sure as shit ain't canon no matter how much the GM may try to keep things as canon as possible. I'm all for embracing the crazy, myself, and going all out, like these comics tend to.

>>94430266
Im including the negotiation process with other entities since those probably lead to them needing to make themselves leaner to be more appealing to buyers. The number of shows downsizing was inevitable once that started happening.

>>94430362
True, though I assume that the current Trek Beta canon wants to not contradict main canon too much right now. I think they spun off the books into their own universe and started over because of Picard being so incompatible.

SHAPE WAR!

>>94429961
An Earth-Romulan War movie could be cool if it was made by people who actually cared.

>>94429961
>PIC finally had to finally Engage the memberberries after the earlier seasons explicitly tried to avoid the look and feel of earlier Trek

this same thing happened to ENT and before that to DS9 and TNG; ENT ended up doing more magic mcguffin and starship battles crap instead of the more gentle stories it had been telling, partly because that was what VOY and DS9 had led fans to expect, but also introduced Ferengi, Borg and even some background stuff like Cardassians (in Dead Stop) as well as the near-constant verbal and prop references to things mentioned in previous canon, like Mayweather's Nomad model

DS9 was retooled heavily after two seasons (really mid-second season, but the effects didn't show up properly until S3) because it wasn't a starship show and nobody much enjoyed the broader soap-opera feel of the station compared to the same kind of stories among the smaller Enterprise-D crew, as well as the lack of a focused mission (if George Lucas had been writing it, they'd have done seven seasons of Bajoran subcommittee hearings instead and Jake would have discovered he was magic; if J. Michael Straczynski had been writing, they'd have done seven seasons of Bajoran subcommittee hearings and the most preposterous wooden shock as brief CGI shots of what were probably space battles were intercut with them, but still leaned heavily into the soap); ironically DS9 became the pew-pew show and remained somewhat directionless, lurching from one war arc to the next to disguise the fact it was still soap opera

TNG tried updating TOS with TMP-level aesthetics and memberberried the shit out of the stories for two seasons, but it was bad, and that's the lesson ST learned early and hard