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>>94607730
>TQ
I think the Autumn People could've worked well as a cross-splat group of antagonists. They're not bad as is in Changeling, but the concept of People Who Take The Joy Out Of Things And Have No Imagination feels like the ultimate villain for any RPG.

Once you kill imagination, the game dies. Fantasy dies.

>My player with the worst comprehension of the rules for Mage spellcasting after weeks of explaining and three months of playing is complaining that Mages are underpowered.
I don't really like Mage even, but his inability to read the rules (literally, he can't afford new glasses so he just can't read because he's so farsighted) is absolutely killing my enjoyment of running this game.

>>94607768
How *does* he think it works?

The story behind the World of Darkness MMO is absolutely hilarious.

>Most of the sources spoken to for this piece identified the same problematic CCP manager, who had little vision for what the finished game would look like.

>“Not once could he answer any question about moment-to-moment gameplay or areas of focus,” says one source. “Instead, he preferred to deliver buzzword-laden rambles… It was not uncommon for him to communicate in onomatopoeia.

>"I once saw him looking over the shoulder of a programmer at some bit of User Interface the poor guy had hacked together. He straightened up, put fingers to lips and said, ‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’ He hissed on his fucking fingertips, like the air coming out of a bicycle tire, and then just walked away.”

What is it with WoD/CofD fans being pretentious pieces of shit?

>>94607768
>I don't really like Mage even, but his inability to read the rules (literally, he can't afford new glasses so he just can't read because he's so farsighted) is absolutely killing my enjoyment of running this game.

Text-to-speech-to-the-rescue!

>>94607844
I had a girlfriend from my college years that studied architecture, one of her teachers once told her to rework one of her projects and "make the space... saltier, not sweet like that".

Neither of us had any idea what the fuck the old hag meant by that, at least at the time.

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>>94607730
>tq
this might be a bit reaching because as written they really only have their name going for them...
there is a faction in the dream speakers called "The Spirit Smiths" who make "awakened items" aka they make handcrafted items till they are so good that the item's spirit awakens and that makes the item slightly better and let's you talk to it... so yeah they get overshadowed hard by other crafting factions especially house verditius but more on that later. their page in their revised t-book only talks about craftmansons who are you know former hermetics and how they stopped being spirit smiths when they joined the order of reasons and in dead magic 2 in the second about rune smithing which should be their jam they get a total of 1 line at the very end of their traditions section
>Spirit Smiths blend the arts of sei›r with those of smithcraft.
while house verditius get's
>Much of the Norse magic undertaken by the Order is the work of House Verditus. Smithwork is the House’s forte, and many learn the secrets of the runes and the arts of Weyland so that they might incorporate them into everything from classic gold bracelets to modern rune-carved handguns.
these guys have nothing going for them beside the name but i really think the name is awesome! and could have been used for a really interesting sub faction like spirit smiths could be the guys who make custom vessels for spirits and wraiths to willingly inhabit or they could be the guys who to try understand the spirit world more want to literally build their own spirits instead they are just guys with items that have a really minior enchantment that they also need to entertain
> the owner of an awakened device decreases the difficulty of all rolls to use it by one. In contrast, anyone whom the device dislikes receives a +1 increase in difficulty to all rolls involving the device.
> Dreamspeakers who abuse or neglect their own awakened devices may find that their possessions have turned against them

Have you made any custom Edges for Imbued hunters?
I recently came across a list and while some look very powerful, I think there's room to make more anti-supernatural powers in the setting.

Annunaki & their scelesti are mad undercooked. It's a shame because almost everything else about the abyss is so well done, but they damn near kill it. They need to be presented as more mid tier "this is a threat but it's not the fundamental cause of events", and then the abyss itself as the real 'big thing'. They're just too incongruous with what mage is otherwise.

I don't think anything from PtC/WtF/GtSE2 really had much potential to not live up to.

>>94607906
>Have you made any custom Edges for Imbued hunters?
Not really, I dislike the template.

might not be exactly the right place to ask but anyone knows what the fuck is going with mark rhein hagens new game fangknight (i am pretty sure it was previously called lostlorn but that is now the name of the company)? i looked it up a a year ago when it was in play test and it looked interesting however the play test was awfully formated so i didn't pitch it to my group and i just now remembered it existed and looked it up but well he posted last month that there is a "Lostlorn revival" (which has 1 like on twitter) and asks people to sign up to the play test again and again while he(or whoever runs the game's twitter) posts pictures of single pages on the games twitter with the headline of "New page revealed!" and i am pretty sure at least some of them i have seen before

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>>94607892
>Spirit Smiths

>I was looking for an object
>And then I found an object
>And Heeeeeeeavens knows its Magickal now

>>94607803
>When I'm trying to figure out what I can do, I get answers about doing almost anything
>When I'm actually playing the game every idea I suggest gets shot down
We only figured out after twelve sessions that he didn't know what quint was.

>>94607844
>It was not uncommon for him to communicate in onomatopoeia.
> He straightened up, put fingers to lips and said, ‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’ He hissed on his fucking fingertips, like the air coming out of a bicycle tire, and then just walked away.”
Was it autism?

>>94607926
So you also dislike WtA Gifts? Because that’s the format Edges basically use.

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>>94608010
>What do you mean autism, Anon.
>What is it about making things more psssssshhh that you don't understand?
>Seems clear to me!

>>94608010
No, it's just artistic pretension, typically found in academic spaces but occasionally they worm their way into creative, design and directing roles in entertainment corporations.

>>94607730
>TQ
Toss-up between WTA Changing Breeds or Changeling: The Dreaming. Both of them suffer the worst from White Wolf's bizarre love of filling in every tiny detail of the setting in the shittest way possible - they can't just make some offhand comment about nobody being sure what Changelings are like in Russia, no they've got to declare that they all left because it's so shit there. Werewolf stuff is full of random throwaway paragraphs like "There were once Were-Eagles. They were probably pretty cool. But they are all dead." The Ananasi book alone suddenly introduces the concept of Weaver-Aligned Were-Insects, only to immediately state "and there will be no rules for them in this book, because the Ananasi killed them all at the dawn of time. God forbid anything interesting happen."

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>>94607984
>mike nina hagen
>fagnight

lelz.

Read the picture attached.

Lostlorn is the scenario name, Fangknight is a game set in the scenario.

Kinda like how the World of Darkness has multiple games like Vampire, Mage etc, I think he's planning on making multiple games with different names for Lostlorn.

>>94608018
>Because that’s the format Edges basically use.
No it isn't. Edges have their weird cap based on the Virtues that means you basically get fuck all of them ever, and the Gambling mechanic means Conviction is all over the place so you can't really rely on having access to it (especially since you get Hunter Sadness™ if you run out).

>>94608004
Are you sure he's not doing it on purpose?

>PCs flirt among each other
>End up derailing the session to have a threesome
>And I just have to sit in the STcuck chair until they're done
I should've listened to people when they told me these games were for freaks

>>94607848
He one of those people who can't follow verbal instructions, just stares at you placidly remembering only that you said
>Some things

>>94608200
honestly at that point just throw him out

>>94608200
Have you considered not inviting literal retards to your TTRPG group?

>>94608093
No he's just... He's not dumb, but he's got that hyperfocused 'tism where if it's not the two things he's good at he's totally incompetent. He can assemble a mother board by hand but he can't figure out how to do his own taxes.
>>94608164
>His players throw him his own personalized porno
>Still, he bitches.
Then jump in and make it a foursome.

>>94608204
>>94608205
We're roommates. I do want very badly to kick him at this point but the games only got four more sessions in it. I didn't realize the levels of his retardation until I was actually trying to get him through character creation. For a long time I couldn't tell for sure if the problem was him, or just how badly designed the Arete system is.

>>94608018
>So you also dislike WtA Gifts?
No, at least those have interesting ideas every once in a while. Most edges are just... meh. like they were written for a very bland audience like a chirstian movie.

>>94607984
I have a copy of it that I can upload in a while but, honestly, it's a mess. You know how people complain that Mork Borgs style gets in the way of its substance? Imagine that but the style is different every other page.

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>>94608068
>Were-Eagles
Apparently the Fianna killed them all (fucking kek?).
Fuck it, they're making a come back in my campaign now. Premise was already going to involve "Bunyip found new kinfolk, came back, and he's still very fucking mad" so other weres coming back will fit nicely.
>Hispo is basically a roc
>Glabro is basically a harpy
Should Crinos resemble picrel or should I go with something else?

>>94608673
I think just like the Corax, the wings and hands would be on the same limb, instead of having 6 limbs

>>94608762
Noted.
Preliminary thoughts:
>Forms: Homid, Harpy, Crinos, Roc, Aquila
>Thinking they use the same ritual as Corax for their young. So no metis, only homid and aquila breeds.
>Meant to serve a similar function to Gaoru, but they're Helios' contribution rather than Luna's. Solar auspices as a result, vulnerable to gold instead of silver.
>All have Eagle as totem, like how Corax all have Raven. Birds of prey are generally common totems however.
>Might use Silver Fangs as a rough template for both culture and gifts, splashing in some Get gifts where appropriate.
>They refer to their Crinos as a 'killing form' rather than a war form. Gaoru are the shock troops, these guys are meant to pick off higher priority threats.
>Unsure on whether they have tribes, as that's extra work for me if yes. Might not even come up in campaign, so a moot point. At the very least geographic distinctions, such as a bald eagle shifter vs. a golden eagle shifter exist.
>Fought in the War of Rage. Though their involvement's largely forgotten. Definitely Corax pulling favours on that.
>Maybe Gaoru attacked them for using Whippoorwill as a totem when they had a ghost problem? Unsure if that works, Owl exists as well and causes fewer problems.
>Seems to be a lot of names for thunderbirds depending what language you look at. Animikii is the one that sounds coolest to me, might call them that.
I'm literally making this shit up as I type here and now if any of it's shit, but I think I like where this is going.

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>>94608854
Are they a "untainted/original wyrm is okay, we should worship the original triad" type or are they more like garou's "wyld only, fuck the weaver/wyrm"? I'm guessing the latter?
>I'm literally making this shit up as I type here and now if any of it's shit
Only criticism would be having them use Whip. I think that no matter who you ask, he's been fully cooked for at least as long as the wyrm has, and possibly actually fell before it did.

>Fought in the War of Rage.
On which side?

>>94608164
I agree with >>94608213. Just go ahead and make it a foursome.

>TQ
>VTM
True Black Hand, always. Also, they introduced since the beggining cults between vampires and I know they tried to do that again in V5, but making them a bit more important would be interesting. At least they tried to do that with Groundkeepers cult.
>WTA
Just like some said, Were-Insects. Not even in 20th anniversary they delivered us that. Instead we got... Turtle-people and Werepanda...

>>94607765
Well, one of their powers is basicaly summoning into physical world a powerful Weaver-spider to do whatever it wants, so this already could cause a problem for everyone.
Also their power to fry other supernatural's powers is handy as well.

>>94608888
>Quads
>Opinions on Wyrm
>Using Whip
Actually, your question solves that issue for me, so I'm dropping that idea entirely (and Owl exists).
I'm thinking they're more in keeping with the original triad, I know it's more of a WtF thing to have Helios's nature as being obstinate and unchanging, but would still fit here. A theological schism splits them from the Gaoru. Given that Eagle is a war totem obsessed with leadership and justice, they'd also have the issue of being competition to the Silver Fangs in an unwelcome way.
>War of Rage
I'm not married to this idea, this just made sense to me here and how:
Technically they were on their own side, as their holier-than-thou attitude would lead them in that direction. While they did have skirmishes against Fera (notably when they brought the fight to the Cearns or did some other violation against Gaia), in practice this meant they were on the Fera's side as the Gaoru were the more proactive belligerent. Would be consistent with the Corax playing all sides during the war, only the Corax managed to pull it off.
The rationale springing to mind is that they didn't wanna lead a pile of viscera when the war was done, so while they shared the Gaoru's frustration with the Fera's apparent abdication of duty, they didn't wanna rule a pile of viscera when it was all done. Idea being they agreed with Fenris' rationale about why the Fera should help the Gaoru, and saw the Fera's refusal as an act of treason. They just disagreed with *who* 'Gaia's strongest children' were in Fenris' argument.
The other Fera, when they're even aware of them, largely leave them be for services rendered, but the sentiment doesn't extend past that because the were-eagles could have just as easily been on the other side.
tl;dr: No one likes a sanctimonious 'peacekeeper', especially when they have eyes on the throne.

>>94608992
>repeated myself mid way through with the viscera thing.
Goddamn it, I thought I edited that sentence.

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>>94608992
>>94609001
They didn't wanna lead a pile of viscera when it was done so the rationale springing to mind is that they didn't wanna lead a pile of viscera when the war was done, so while they shared the Gaoru's frustration they didn't wanna lead a pile of viscera after the war, so despite the Fera's apparent abdication of duty, they didn't wanna rule a pile of viscera when it was all done?

>>94609043
Please understand, bane got into my head mid sentence. He liked that phrase a little too much.

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>>94608955
>Were-Insects. Not even in 20th anniversary they delivered us that.
Book of the Wyrm did add Samsa, were-cockroaches made by Pentex. The funniest part is that Cockroach (the totem) thinks they're neat.

>>94607730
>Which faction do you believe had the most wasted potential - one that could've been way cooler than what White Wolf delivered?
Changing Breeds. I honestly believe Hengeyokai should've been the base game, with the different species of Fera in place of the Tribes. And, as many people said, White Wolf decided a dozen cool species all went extinct before the game even started.

>>94609057
Yes, I know about Samsa, but they are mockery breeds, not real Insect Fera from older times.

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>>94607730
i know i am being greedy here because wolves of the sea is already norse culture + vampires but a mixed norse splat book could have been amazing given that white wolf hinted at relations between the splats in the area back in the good old days without ever really going into them

>>94609246
Maybe they shouldn't have apologized for WoD: Gypsies but release books like WoD: Vikings or WoD: Jews as well.

>>94609334
>Jews: The Shekeling
Sounds like a boring game, you'd be forced to max out your socials and economics so you can scam people all the time in chronicle. Backgrounds would probably include calling for IDF to deal with your problems and measuring the potency of King Solomon's blood in your veins, which allows you to use his secret Christo-Molochian sorcery.

>>94609334
they were planning on doing something similair with a Dark Ages: Italy book, but it got canceled because white wolf thought that having (new) world of darkness and dark age around at the same time was too confusing for customers

in general the direction dark age was about to go in just before it's death was hard into crossover books darkening sky was also written around the same time and also canceled and then released a decade alter

>>94609360
>Dark Ages: Italy
That one would have been closer to DA: British Isles. Aside from Wolves of the Sea, there's also Veil of Night and Wind from the East.
Aside from the Clan Guides and Road books, most DA:V books also included stuff for the Mages, Inquisitors and Werewolves.

>>94609246
I wish Wolves of the Sea could have been a bluebook for Dark Ages instead of being a vampire one.

>>94609360
It always annoyed me that Italy did get a write up in Dark Ages... In the Three Pillars book for vampire. Just a little under 30 pages but it's still something.

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>>94609360
>>94609435
>>94609524
>Be me
>Ventrue Ancillae
>Move to Italy, land of "culture" and "tradition"
>Everyone’s wearing fedoras and gesturing aggressively
>Try to embrace local customs
>Grow a mustache, start wearing a hat
>End up fighting Giovanni over the family tomato sauce recipe
>“It’sa me, your cousin! Let’s talk abouta business, capisce?”
>Can’t tell if I’m brokering deals or starring in a mafia movie
>Diablerise a Toreador; their blood tastes like marinara
>Realize Italians don’t have vitae, they have tomato sauce for blood
>Every Giovanni elder secretly a 400-year-old pizza chef
>Coterie won’t stop calling me “Don Ventrue”
>Mfw I just wanted to open a bank and now I’m Il Capo di Pasta

>>94607730
>Which faction do you believe had the most wasted potential - one that could've been way cooler than what White Wolf delivered?
Sorcerers. They were originally an independant splat like mummy and kote, with the unique twist that they have ties to every gameline, but Mrev onward the writers keep tying them more to Mage and nerfing their abilities.
Sorcerer could have easily been the basis for a series One-WoD crossover chronicles, but keep getting kicked into the same spot as ghouls and kinfolk(despite the fact even in revised era, a freshly created sorcerer could easily be able to stand in the same leagues as many ancillae vampires).
S20 is a travesty and deserves to be forgotten.

>>94609703
>S20 is a travesty and deserves to be forgotten.
I like how they tried to nerf sorcerers by saying "You can only have max dots in a Path equal to half of your total Willpower".
However, they didn't realise this would lead same problem as a Tremere player: Just spend your freebies into Willpower 10 and call it a day, which is way worse than a sorcerer/psychic having lots of Path 5 and poor Willpower.

>>94609901
>I like how they tried to nerf sorcerers by saying "You can only have max dots in a Path equal to half of your total Willpower".
>However, they didn't realise this would lead same problem as a Tremere player: Just spend your freebies into Willpower 10 and call it a day, which is way worse than a sorcerer/psychic having lots of Path 5 and poor Willpower.
Willpower in general is a travesty, considering how much you need it to resist stuff, how (relatively) easy it is to recover, and how it can go in virtually *all* rolls unless the ST decides to curtail with, but my experience has been that STs don't like to enforce their "discretion" in general because when they're playing they don't want it enforced against them.

>>94609703
I really like Sorcerer. My solution to not liking Mage but still wanting a larger presence of mortals that can do magic was to just give Sorcerer the full splat treatment.

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>... And The Great Bane Totem said: "And now I am become death, destroyer of worlds. With or without you this day, the Gaians arrayed in opposition to me shall fall into the Wyrm, and cease to exist."
>"Therefore, arise and attain glory. Conquer your foes and dance the Spiral eternal. These warriors stand already slain by Me. You will only be an instrument of My work. You, my great, and lowly, bastard."

>>94609968
Willpower is awesome.

Every single thing that is in the character sheet should be leveraged by the player to their advantage.

Even Humanity can be powergammed if you know what the fuck you're doing, if the score is too low you can literally get away with murder and if the score is high you can blend in with mortals with ease and leverage those connections.

Trying to change the systems so they're unexploitable is stupid because its impossible, just play the damn game the way it was made.

>>94609968
>how (relatively) easy it is to recover
I wish all my players had the RPing ability to roleplay their Nature every session so they could recover Willpower easier. And yes, I give them opportunities to do so.
Instead, I see they complaining "we should add Demeanour into WP recovery!". No, you dumbass. The whole conflict between Nature vs. Demeanour is trying to show who you really are without getting caught and still preserve that social mask you created for yourself. That's why the game rewards you with not only one, but up to three willpower points if you roleplay right and do something good while acting towards your Nature.
Also, I should blame many STs who are stingy towards willpower recovery and no matter what players do, they always recover one point.
In the reverse, I see many players saying "Vice&Virtue CofD system is way better because you can recover WP with both aspects", but when I ST to these people, they also have same issues with not RPing their Vice or Virtue. Bunch of dumbasses.

>>94610036
>"Vice and Virtue is better"
A retarded take anyway, and this is coming from someone who prefers that system. Vice restores ONE (1) if you follow that vice into a situation that's going to fuck your character in one way or another. It's literally not worth the exchange rate.
Virtues restore the full pool, sure, but you have to legitimately suffer in the expression of the virtue. Giving money to a hobo is not enough for a virtue restore on a charitable character.

>>94610036
I think there's an issue with the "RP to recover will" system in both games. Sometimes good RP is subtle. Other times you just don't get an opportunity to "show" your character's traits in action. Worse still it can create a perverse reward structure where PCs can act out of character to showcase their nature/demeanor/virtue/vice. In all cases it feels like you have to make an argument for why you did the good RP and should get a will back.

>>94609990
>>94610036
Had a player (farsighted autist from upthread) tell me that he's been playing vampire since first edition masquerade came out, and he never new Nature and Demeanor did anything, because he's never had an ST even use willpower as a system before.
I don't like people who make RPGs into wargames, but I can't understand people who just do freeform with the sound of clattering dice in the background

>>94610111
The only three things I have never managed to figure out a way to use to my advantage in a Storyteller game are the Name, Player, and Concept parts of the character sheet.

Its not a question of minmaxing or breaking immersion, its a question of having the tool in your toolbelt, remembering to use it, and using it to its full potential.

>>94609971
>wanting a larger presence of mortals that can do magic
Mortals have the most diverse magical factions. Between Shih, Sorcerers, Psychics, Imbued, Demon Hunter X, and True Faith/Inquisitors, there are enough factions of supernatural mortals that you could play a lifetime of MtA, with all the same technocracy/trafitipn/etc, without ever seeing an actual Mage.

>>94610284
>Mage works fine in crossover as long as you use every other splat Except mages
Do you not see the problem here anon?

>>94607844
That isn't a fan of anything, that's a business major.

>>94610284
>Mortals have the most diverse magical factions.
And unlike the various splats/half-splats, they can crossover into multiple.
The only thing stopping humanity ascending into a race of methusela-level superbeings, and curb-stomping every other faction, is the combined efforts of every supernatural desperately doing everything in their power to hide the truth and keep humanity divided.
The deep lore of Old WoD is very gnostic when you get down to it, and the player is on the side of the archons.

>>94608072
>Bteh!

>>94609972
Look at his whole mouth zone, there; pretty Wyrmish.

>>94609972
I cannot possibly stress enough how many dead woofs

>>94610107
>In all cases it feels like you have to make an argument for why you did the good RP and should get a will back.
Pretty much. Nwod's system is better about this (vice is a lot more tangible, which is why people prefer it) but it still suffers the same issue where you're going to be faced with either explicitly pointing out that you're making overtures of some kind (taking yourself out of what should be an actual character moment) or just risk the ST not paying attention/rewarding it.

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>>94609057
>>94609223

Did White Wolf really name a Changing Breed of cockroaches after Gregor Samsa, the character from Kafka's Metamorphosis, whose transformation into a repugnant insect is supposed to be a metaphor for the overnight change in popular opinion and the later persecution of the Jewish people by the Nazi regime?

Megalolz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV5l-Nt18o4

>>94610971
Kafka died about 10 years before the Nazis came to power, how was he supposed to write an allegory for the Holocaust.
And the Jews were persecuted for centuries before that, though it could be argued that there was a shift from anti-judaism to anti-semitism in the 19th century.

>>94610971
Metamorphosis was written because Kafka thought it would be really funny if a dude woke up as a giant beetle for no reason.

>>94611159
Yeah I Googled it later to double check when the book came out, but by then the post was already posted - turns out, my high school teacher from like 30 years ago was wrong about her timing of the novel.

I think my point about the jew allegory thing still stands, though.

>>94610971
>Did White Wolf really name a Changing Breed of cockroaches
No.
It's a mockery breed

>>94611180
Ah I get it. They don't change, they just mock.

>>94611176
Maybe, he was a Jew.
Worth noting that all of his stuff was about how bureaucracy is literal hell on earth, which is a theme WtA fucking beats you over the head with when it gets the opportunity. Moreover, the Samsa themselves are probably the most unfairly mistreated of all the shapechangers. I'd say the name was a form of homage.

>>94610642
Yeah, no one actually believes that the Camarilla, Garou Nation, Traditions and Un/seelie Courts would change the world for the better if they won, even if they're the closest thing to the good guys for each splat.

In almost every case, their ideal vision of the world involves blasting humanity back into the dark ages, into an era of magic and superstition and fearing the darkness and the beings that hunt them and/or rule over them from the shadows.

>>94611176
>my high school teacher from like 30 years
Why the fuck do you put any stock into what high-school teachers have to say? Access to google taught me they were all retarded by the midpoint of my freshman year.

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>>94611254
>they're the closest thing to the good guys for each splat

>>94610107
>In all cases it feels like you have to make an argument for why you did the good RP and should get a will back.
It's not that bad. Just say at end of session "Hey, I think my character recovered WP due to this action". And this happens just when a ST isn't paying attention or - if you're like me - when you have to remember him WP recovery at end's session.
It isn't an argument, just pointing out something.
I don't know which games people are playing, but there was never a necessity of making "an argument" for this type of stuff.

>>94610962
I think CofD's system is way worse than WoD because all games I played (as ST and player), everyone started before an action by saying "I'm gonna do this to refill my Virtue/Vice" or everytime after an action conclusion they judged would be worthy refilling WP.

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>>94611254
>Camarilla
>Garou that aren't Glassies
>The Fucking Traditions
>Any Fae at fucking all
>The Good Guys

Vampire Elites are not good, basically no Vamp is. The good Vamps ash themselves or are schizos working for the Vatican like that one roided out nutjob. Every Garou that isn't a Glass (and even then) are sociopathic retarded manchildred with anger issues, that's the point of the Garou. The Traditions are so hilariously terrible in basically every single thing that letting them rule basically anything means you reset worldly progress to square zero. Fae are terrible psionic vampires.

No.

>>94611435
It's always some freak microfaction that are the actual good guys
>Inconnu or Tal'Mahe'Ra if you want to be edgy
>Stargazers
>literally no one for Mage, too nietzschepilled of a game
>House Liam is borderline Autumned to death

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>>94611435
>>94611464
The Verbana are the good guys though

>>94611435
But they're still the protagonists of their respective splats, good guys from the perspective of the players, as 90% of the time, they are what the players are playing. The fact that they're monsters who would curse humanity to a miserable existence if they "won" only proves the point that I was making.

>>94611506
>when a Verbena dabbles in Prime and Correspondence

>World of Darkness: Poland

>>94611435
A reminder that the mummies are literally the Good Guys of WoD and everyone else is either inadequate to be the custodians of reality or want human beings to stay ignorant of their true potential.

>>94611543
Entirely acceptable.
>>94611506
Spirit dicksucking really hasn't done anyone any favors.
>>94611464
There's rarely a good faction in WoD. You can try and pinpoint some better ones, but everyone is *generally*, at best, net neutral with good intentions or entirely high off their own supply retards with very little inbetween short of shit like Mummies who are legitimately just good dudes as a whole. Ghosts vamps woofs demons, vast majority of mages, they're all selfish retarded cunts with delusions of grandiosity willing to squash everyone. Which is why the Technocracy, as a whole, is the closest to the Mage Good Guys despite their flaws.
>>94611512
Nah, belonging to the protags doesn't make you the good dudes when you are playing in a setting called the world of darkness.

>>94611435
Listen, if you're gonna start pointing out how incompetent the Factions on the World of Darkness are at Anything, you're gonna have to list all of 'em, and every single thing they have tried to do. Even the stuff that worked out for them in the short term ends up biting 'em in the ass in the long run.

This is the World of Darkness, my dude. It didn't end up as a super fucked up version of our own world (which is already super fucked up to begin with) because things were going historically as good as they could be. Its the other way around. Things are always tense and in the edge of the precipice.

>>94611582
I am an avid mummyposter, but even they have bad eggs (including Horus himself)

>>94611435
>The Traditions

You speak about that which you do not know.

The Traditions are the only viable vehicle for collective Ascension.

The Technocracy seeks Ascension through perfect order, stagnation, and equality.
Which is the Diet Coke version of what the Nephandi seek - Death and Destruction bringing the ultimate perfect order, stagnation, and equality.

And the Marauders are just cray-cray.

Thus, by virtue of Exclusion by Association, we can infer that the Traditions are the Least Worst Of The Guys (as there are no Good Guys in the World of Darkness).

Later 20th Anniversary introduced the Disparate Alliance but they're just Diet Traditions, and essentially changed Squat in the grand scheme of things.

>>94611653
Marauders are objectively the only people with a chance at ascension (neph bullshit notwithstanding)

>>94611653
Disparate Alliance are a joke, indeed.

>>94609334
They did release a jew book for wraith

>>94611671
Arguably, considering they don't suffer paradox and have changed in a permanent and inexplicable way, they have already ascended, and simply project that ascension outwards instead of inwards.

This, however, makes it a problem for literally anyone else in their vicinity, which makes it an absolutely terrible method of ascension.

>>94611435
To be fair to the Traditions, the idea is for none of them to "reign" and instead become guides or at the very least keep each other in check.

>>94611653
>The Technocracy seeks Ascension through perfect order, stagnation, and equality.
Which is what has led to the golden age of equality and luxury and information and everything today, at least according to WoD.

So, why exactly are they the bad guys again?

>>94611733
They don't have real magic unless they've already been exiled to a paradox realm or whatever it's called, terrestrial marauders are unambiguously not ascended. Being ejected from reality into your private dreamscape is arguably ascension, though.
>considering they don't suffer paradox
RAW, they still do though, just less.
>have changed in a permanent and inexplicable way
They're just Wyld flavored, seems perfectly explicable to me.

>>94611752
See that's materialist thinking, you've fallen for the technocrat bait hook, line and sinker.
Your "equality" means nothing because nobody's spirit is allowed to get ahead.
Your "luxury" is purely material obsession with consumerism.
And your "information" is merely what the Technocracy deems safe for you to know.
If you want to be a cog in someone else's machine, a slave that serves a master that will never set you free, if you wish to never spread your wings and bask in the glory that is your birthright, then yes the Technocracy are good guys.

>>94611813
That's just a bunch of Evola style bullshit, you got psyopped by a game to become an "esoteric fascist".

>>94611534
So... normal Poland?
>>94611543
Not really, they're just super sorcerers who failed to have any impact on the setting outside of ancient Egypt.

>>94611871
Not only that, he got metapilled into believing the gospel truth that the Avatar is a good entity. People don't understand enough that magick really shouldn't be intuitive. Unless you're surrounded by kind, supportive mages guiding you (impossible), you should be asking yourself if you're touching some real eldritch nonsense.

>>94611871
See at first I considered myself an "esoteric activist" promoting Ascension for everyone, including your materialist ilk.
But now I'm an "esoteric chauvinist/darwinist." If you refuse to abandon the technocratic-imposed paradigm for your own good then who am I to deny you your doom?

Do you prefer batshit crazy Marauders manifesting Manticores in Manhattan?
Or are you more of a Malkavian-mannered Marauders maligned by man's madness?

>>94611752
>Which is what has led to the golden age of equality and luxury and information and everything today
First and foremost: luxury to whom?
Second: Equality how? And again, who is equal to whom?
And third, and most important: How are any of those things going to lead the world to a mass Ascension?

>>94611752
In the game itself? It comes down to two things.
Firstly, the spirit world, and secondly, supernatural creatures.

Enforcing materialism cuts off the spirit world even more from the real world, this will result in the destruction of the soul of the planet. Their pursuit of perfect order and safety denies individuality, and hence the human condition. What is the purpose of utility without celebration? What is the purpose of money without happiness and wonder? What is the purpose of reason if you deny the possibility of the impossible? They teach the people to disbelieve, and wonder why the masses stay ignorant of their true potential. Maybe the Order of Reason had nobler goals, but such things have been lost to time in just a short 500 years.

Secondly, the existence of supernatural creatures which persist in spite of the masses not believing in them points to there being an objective reality which they cannot influence via consensus. Their response to this is destruction, instead of understanding. Arguably, this is the safer option to take, but to know that the supernatural can exist without the influence of paradox and to not take the time to learn seems just a little short sighted.

>>94611671
>>94611733

You can't achieve the ultimate enlightenment and reality bending capabilities if you're yeeted from it from sneezing too hard, and whenever you're able to Be on it, you do so by imposing your own individual view on everyone else until you sneeze hard enough and get yeeted again.

Remind me again, how many Oracles exist that AREN'T from the Traditions?

The wiki lists two names but neither are Real Oracles - one is an Oracle-Level Marauder (because of her Arete level), and the other is listed on the Wiki as an Oracle of the QLIPPOTHIC Spheres.

I am asking a legitimate question here, btw. I really don't know if there were others listed anywhere else.

I think if there are no real, normal Oracles from outside the Traditions, it's essentially Check Mate when it comes to which faction is more likely to be pushing its members towards Ascension.

>>94611813
>>94611978
>>94611980
If living a comfortable, happy live and making sure that the people I love are able to live comfortable, happy lives is bad, then I don't want to be right. Sign me up for that hardcore materialism, senpai.

>>94611988
>ejected from material constraints, freed from the prison to attain your intrinsic divinity
That is literally ascension

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>>94612031
Have fun forever trapped in Samsara, Anon.

>>94612031
Being serious now.

This is the World of Darkness, buddy.

There is no Luxury and Happy Lives and the people you love are all gonna be Vampire Food or Worst.

Touch some grass buddy, you're confusing Real Life with an RPG scenario.

>No, the hypertech does not allow for massively great conditions, you simply must eat shit to become a Mage!
>Except the plenty of people that still never ever became Mages with shit conditions so ignore that part
>But also becoming massively rich impedes your progress as a Mage and also stops you!
>Except for every rich guy like the Syndicate and shit which already lived really well and also was very rich and with luxury and fairly happy for it
>But also the tech is so very limiting when you could do X with Y Tradition!
>Except also the whole point is that tech is available to everyone and the Technocracy wants to massively allow a ton of it for Sleepers they just don't buy it yet
>Also trust me the massive ammount of free information and general safety and quality of life is lessening the ammount of Mages around for fucking sure bro
>Just ignore projects like that one hermetic Harry Potter school that makes like 1 hermetic a century tops, that's not indicative of anything
>And trust me basic quality of life is totally bad for anything
>And trust me dragons and demons and hansel and gretel every tuesday was great for everyone
>And trust me it was imperative to never share healing potions or surgical anything to any sleepers
>And trust me it was simply required to kill 12 virgins so the spirits of the woods wouldn't literally murder rape your kids to death
>Just trust me, hyper tech, money utopia and Sleeper QoL is the doom of all Mages, we build our Ascencion on pure rarefied human suffering because its how it works!
>Except when it doesnt!
>Which is very often actually but just trust us, We Merlins/Drug Cultists/Murderers/Cogwankers/ERP Specialists/Spirit Dicksuckers know best!

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>>94611534
>Be me
>Brujah anarch on the run
>End up in Poland, because who the hell goes to Poland?
>City names look like someone smashed a keyboard
>“Welcome to Wrocław, it’s pronounced *Vrotz-wav*”
>Locals are either suspiciously kind or look like they want to fight me
>Local Tremere chantry uses borscht for ritual components
>Diablerize a Gangrel, get flashbacks of potato fields and freezing winters
>Meet Nosferatu named Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz
>Not even a Noddist Scholar knows how to say his name
>Everyone eats pierogi like it’s a blood bond ritual
>Try one; black out from carb overload before I can run to the bathroom to puke it out
>Wake up at someone's Babcia’s kitchen table
>“You’re too skinny, eat more pierogi!”
>She slaps my hand with a wooden spoon when I refuse
>Realize I’m losing health levels every time she does it
>Babcia is a 6th gen elder, spoon is some cursed relic of Caine
>Last thing I see is her glaring at me and muttering, “No one leaves hungry.”

>>94612012
I'm pretty sure that there aren't Oracles from the Technocrats because of how they mind control their own on top of their paradigm.
That and no one gives a shit about having non traditional Oracles, for the same reasons you don't see stable people.

>>94612056
>Except the plenty of people that still never ever became Mages with shit conditions so ignore that part

Time is an ocean, not a Garden Hose.

By no means Mass Ascension means everyone will Ascend together in the same time-and-space continuum.

Time is a wibbly-wobbly timey-whimey thing and everything happens at the same time because there is no future and there is no past, there is only Now.

If you actually bothered to read the books you'd know that Ascension is defined, for the last 30 fucking years, as THE FULFILMENT OF THE KARMIC DESTINY OF YOUR CHARACTER.

Page 239 of the 1st Edition Core book, baby.

When and how that happens is not up for the fucking Technocracy or the Traditions or Paradigm or anything else to decide.

Apply yourself Anon.

>>94612131
Except the argument is that magically having good sleeper conditions would mean nobody would ever ascend when that's demonstrably false and people still do so its not bad conditions. Temporal instability only reinforces the point that yeah, good conditions don't stop it. You slamming the enter key 12 times per post is just helping me Anon.

>>94612103
>Brujah
>anarch
>End up in Poland
Just kill yourself already.

>>94612148
>You slamming the enter key 12 times per post
I'm not the one that writes my posts, it's your mom and she does it one-handed, one hand on the keyboard and the other one on my dick.

Now.

>Good Sleeper conditions.
In the World of Darkness?
The Motherfucking World of DARKNESS?
Anon, go touch some grass.
As in go outside, not smoke more weed, clearly you could do with a tolerance break.
You're letting your views of the real world get on the way of your interpretation of how a scenario made for personal horror is like.
There's warnings on the first pages of every single World of Darkness book specifically made for people like you.

The funniest thing about the awakening is that mages start with 5 willpower and according to that bare minimum roughly 2/3rds of all human beings lack the will needed to awaken. That other third? They need the exact conditions to push their avatar awake through a moment of enlightenment or personal understanding. To be a mage is to be an individual, first and foremost. Someone different from the faceless masses. Restrictive paradigms (like the Tremere's) result in poor awakenings and their ability to perform magic dies. This means all mages who want to control reality in their one image fail at understanding how magic works in the first place. The Ascension War is literally pointless on that foundation alone.

>>94612056
If you want an idea of what most of WW thinks a Tradition hegemony would be like read about Exalted.

>>94612163
So! The Ascension War.

On 1st Edition the War made Sense because Ascension As A Collective Thing is hammered multiple times, thus being able to guide humanity in one direction or another had some semblance of sense.

On 2nd Edition this changed to be a war over the control of the dominant Paradigm on Earth, as means to acquire more political power on the physical world.

On Revised people realised the Ascension War had nothing to do with Ascension anymore and it went away in a puff of smoke.

My take on all of this is that the Ascension War is cool because playing Cowboys & Indians with the Technocracy is a lot of fun.

That's it. Where you expecting something deep?

>>94612160
Average Virtual Adept behaviour desu. Ok listen Anon I understand you have difficulty understanding very basic concepts so allow me to mimic your strategy so you don't have an embolism reading this without 12 enter spaces.

Technocracy want good conditions

Technocracy win means better conditions

Every other Tradition makes life hell besides Aetherites and even then, not great

Currently the Tellurian is pretty shitty but the Technos do want it better

Technos winning is hypothetical as is the vast majority of shit in a tabletop setting

More than half of us would absolutely sell out to a corpo for a great pay and decent workload so frankly the Syndicate and the majority of the Technocracy just works since we already live in the Technocracy irl and it beats being in Romania

Do you want to live in Romania?

No you don't

Go Team Technocracy

>>94612199
Better conditions to whom do what, Anon?
That's like saying Trust The Billionaires, Capitalism Was The Best Thing Ever.

>Romania
Of course! They're part of the EU, with a decent remote job there you can live like a king! Because that's how the very same things you are defending work, Anon.

>>94612163
If you're not a marauder you haven't fully awakened yet tbd (to be desu)

>>94612199
The thing you fail to understand, Anon, is that the Technocracy is Full Of Shit, just like every single other faction in the World of Darkness.

They don't want better conditions for humanity, they want more power for themselves and if that happens to be good for the humans that's a bonus.

Your extremely romanticised views of how the scientific community works (which, spoilers, is almost exactly like how I described above, with every researcher looking for more funding for their projects and whatnot, but on a much smaller scale because, very obviously, scientists aren't capable of bending reality) are getting on the way of your understanding of how a tabletop RPG scenario works.

>>94612199
You are very, very naïve.

>>94612199
>Another promise, another scene
>Another PACKAGED LIE to keep us TRAPPED IN GREED

>f you could flick the switch and open your third eye
>You'd see that we should never be afraid to die

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4R6k8_iIkE

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>>94612199
Anon is incapable of seeing the FNORDs.

>>94612224
Its incredibly difficult to work on Romania with that aspect as it stands because it resists Technocratic progress. Once it begins to stabilize, yes, then the abilities and comfort of the Technocracy permit it all to be better. Once it begins to modernize to a good standard its fine.
>>94612257
Except yknow, the vast majority of people who still invent, create and conceptualize, who improve lives constantly, who destroy the tyrant shit of other Traditions, abolish garbage contrary to the interests of Humanity, who defend Humanity constantly from shit in "outer space", who put themselves in the front lines, who were entirely willing to sacrifice their spot at the top of the paradigm to stop a certain Antedeluvian and in fact risked it all to save Humanity.

Its a corpo state that actually wants to do good. Its a flawed one, with out of touch leadership that bickers and conflicts with itself. But it is a bright torch amidst the darkness, a much brighter one than the fucking hermetics, the pleasure cultists, the backwater vodoo slingers or worse, the murder cults, the ERP sessionists and Cultivationists. 20 flavours of hellish existence with only one of those fuckers around.

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>>94612199
Anon either works in Marketing or HR IRL.
Or lives off NEETbux.

There's no other explanation for this level of appreciation for licking boot.

>>94612338
We get it, Anon.

You like to watch other men sleep with your wife.

>>94612053
The World of Darkness is just the real world with monsters hiding in the shadows though. 99% of humanity lives ordinary, realistic lives with zero contact with the supernatural, even unknowingly.

>>94612355
>>94612355
>The World of Darkness is just the real world with monsters hiding in the shadows though

How to tell the entire thread you have never once in your entire life engaged with the scenario outside of reading memes in a single message.

Side note of the small conversation we're having here: /WoDg/ is dubbing like crazy again.

>total meltdown over someone daring to choose the faction that's done the least wrong
I'm fairly convinced these people are the same ones that have a meltdown when you talk about nwod

>>94612366
You could prove me wrong instead of doing mental gymnastics straight into hyperbole.

>>94612380
Pick up any of the core books and open up on the part that describes what the World of Darkness is.

Any one of 'em.

>>94612380
>>94612387

Go ahead.

They're all there on Mega. I recommend the stuff from 2nd Edition onwards as the jump in quality from 1st to 2nd Edition is tremendous.

Educate yourself.

>>94612353
Anon, if you want to enter on a level of attaching cuckoldry to magical traditions, I hate to tell you this but every tradition is even worse. The Hermetics defend a world where you have to sell your wife into infernal sex slavery to appease fey dragons and beasts, nevermind when the kind wizards come into town or the society of warring and shit like it used to happen. The Cult of Ecstasy has a name that already implies enough but would be even worse. Choiresters and their 2000 cults all have shit like the leader banging everyones wives and daughters and even sons, don't go there. The Akashics are chinese, they engage in hyper capitalism spirituality to steal eachothers wives and mega cripple you 24/7, its just asian hermetics but with more cruelty. Dreamspeakers are just the essence of let your wife get fucked by wolves because the forests wants to do it. Euthanatos will just kill your wife in front of you because reasons but they'll probably murder rape her because they have 0 morals or ethics. Verbena will straight up just shift into wolves and fuck her because they want to. Virtuals will just trap her in an erp game.

Hand to The One, you guys all act as if the Technocracy isn't the winning play. Get me my shades and bulletproof suit, I'm ready to NWO and secure the Sleepers from the threats of the Umbra. Spirits had it coming a long time ago.

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>>94612421
Gonna need those shades, with that level of glowing.

>>94612377
Listen if you're not gonna join in the fun just go have your wank and come back later.

Where are all the non-retarded-asshole stable marauders, anyway? By stable I mean people who clearly understand that their paradigm is not the same as the universal paradigm. The zooterrorists clearly realize this, for example, but they decide that what to do with that is summon unicorns in the bank to mess with the technocracy, instead of anything that would actually advance their own position.

On a related note, has the Wyld ever done anything wrong?

>>94612461
(you)

>>94612523
>On a related note, has the Wyld ever done anything wrong?
Killing people by Retconing them into other people besides that it is to irrelevant to be antagonistic.

>>94612053
I think this is exactly the issue with Mage's core conflict, in a world full of monsters, we're supposed to think the guys who want to kill them are the bad guys, because modernity is not sufficiently spiritual.
And I do believe these talking points, especially in the first edition, are ripped from Evola, he also wrote about Hermeticism, the writers probably read his stuff.

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>>94612584
The core conflict of the Mage thing is just that you let the Technocracy do its thing and let the Traditions do their thing but the Traditions are mega retarded and cannot fathom that you can't do X or that they're not the biggest kids in the sandbox tellurian. The conflict is entirely something the Traditions do because they are the bad guys and cannot just contain themselves to their cults and hideouts, they simply have to turn everything into their paradigm so they have an easier time at the detriment of everyone else while not contributing anything to the defense of humanity. They hate humanity as a whole and bypass reason and logic to achieve their results, damn consequences causality time and more.

But this is fine because the exact same way that Werewolf is about you being a brainwashed murderpuppy retard who wants to wage war to save the world, Mage is usually about you being a complete retard savant who fights humanity too. You're a tool for someone else much more powerful, indocrinated on bullshit, to fight the structures that are holding the barest of basic quality of life for humanity on the basis of... what exactly? A triad of social constructs so vaporous nobody can really define it correctly? Or a circle of out of their mind robe and wizard hats, sex pests, druggies, murderers and worse trying to make a paradigm of mudcore sex dungeon boof parties snuff films?

It works. You're some self aggrandized retard with too much power letting yourself be high off your own supply and to execute your ideological war on society. Except yknow, when you kill a mining team you're not hurting The Man, you only hurt it by not being violent, changing minds and actually putting the knife down to execute practice. And likewise the life of society is flawed but it allows for comfort, stories, sharing of memories and information despite its many issues. Its boring. And you could help, but won't.

>>94612131
You know, that'd be a funny way to hack mass ascension by materialism
>Correspondence 10, Mind 10, Time 10
>Dam the River of Maya: Remove the illusion of space-time from reality
>Everyone ascends

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>>94612649
Ahm?

Anon, you miss all the fundamentals about what is the core conflict on all of the World of Darkness games.
The same goes for Chronicles of Darkness too, btw.

>“Can you play Wednesday?”
>“Oh, Greg can’t. How about Thursday?”
>“I’ve got Pilates.”
>“Sunday?”
>“Can’t, we’re visiting my in-laws.”
>Ok fine, next week?
>“I’ll let you know.”
>Fast forward two months, haven’t played a single session

The only conflict that really matters in the World of Darkness are scheduling conflicts.
Adulthood gets on the way of your capacity to use your imagination and when you can't do that, the instance of the World of Darkness where your Chronicle exists essentially doesn't manifest itself and stay stagnant - the Technocracy wins. And if you stop playing or your group falls apart, it's a Nephandic victory.

If you people cannot grasp the true form by which your characters are under attack, you have much to learn in the ways of The Tism.

>>94612421
Here is your great world of amenities, CuckAnon: >>94612717

You are free to engage with it as much as you want. You don't even need to read the core book for that, which is perfect for you, since you seem to be allergic to that.

The rest of us that can read subtext however and are interested in playing the World of Darkness will keep on fending off the Technocracy, kicking the Pentex's teeth in, keeping the Dream alive, and last but not least, flirting with big tiddy goth girls.

>>94612257
>>94612338
As someone in the scientific community, as long as The Syndicate is the quintessence generator for the Technocracy, there's no way that the Progenitors or Iteration X are doing any good. The real scientific community already has major problems with misrepresenting results for the sake of funding to the extent that study results are unreplicatable. When The Syndicate controls if your grav-repulsors on your floating city will work, there's no way anything coming out of The Technocracy contributes to Consensus or Ascension.

>>94612798
Thank you for speaking out.

>>94612747
Anon if you can't get a group that wishes to play that's not the Technocracies fault, that's just fucking hilarious. That such is your worries, solvable by obtaining a better ttrpg group, then that's heaven. I dunno what you're on about but you're so media literate you're ignoring the whole point of the splats and their commentary which, I mean kudos to you, you're larping as one of the Traditions plenty.
>>94612798
I'm part of it too. We still do good research and have things going on, slower and underfunded but we make it work. The Syndicate is not a monolithic thing which controls every dollar euro rupee and copper wire transacted, and there's still paradigm and consensus work being done on a base level without the Syndicate funding it completely, and doubly so as a lot of work for the application of tech already developed is just a matter of making it credible and palatable for Sleepers.

You're a defeatist.

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>>94612811
>you're ignoring the whole point of the splats and their commentary which
The Mega is there, it's free, you're ignorant because you're lazy and that's why people make fun of you.

> I dunno what you're on about
You don't need to say that, Captain Obvious, the entire thread has realised you don't know what we're talking about here, because you don't read the fucking books.

>I'm part of it too
Truly, humanity is in capable hands.

>>94612811
You do Romanian Science, I do American Science. I know which one I'd trust more, and it's not from the country that The Syndicate has its attention on.

>>94612851
You mean, he has actually read the books and you're reduced to aimless shitposting because you have no counterpoints?

>>94612872
Back your fucking assertions about the game with the citations, then.

Also, nice job white knighting for your friend, do you suck his cock too?

>I'm a scientist!
>No I don't have to provide any evidence of my assertions.
>Just listen and believe.

Yeah that's exactly how the scientifical method works. You're a goddamn Genious, Anon.

>>94612851
I would destroy dreams too if I could. They have granted me nothing of value, have never granted me any inspiration and have endlessly funded a thousand penny dreadfuls of pseudo psychology mysticism explaining why teeth falling means you need to do this innane ritual. Dreams are nonsense, useless and effectively garbage, and waking hopes and internal cognitions are much more interesting than dreams ever will be. You can have aspirations goals and more without them being dreams, because a dream job is simply a true aspiration you have.

The Technocracy is a dream itself but it can rebrand itself as an aspiration. Such is a meaningless cost.

Your anger is the usual response of someone who doesn't understand that the games have a meta aspect to them and all somewhat have some level of meta message. And the simple truth is that the Technocracy, flawed as it is, still beats everyone else tenfold and that your anger just shows off the average person who still think the Garou are somehow correct quoting things such as the Weaver when the paradigm is one of endless inovation, possibility and creation.

>>94612883
You're the one making the assertions which aren't held up by the books, faglord

>>94612903
Bla bla bla bla bla citation needed.

Either shit or leave the pot, fuckface.

>>94612905
I'm sorry are you the farsighted autist from the other Anon's group that can't read the fucking screenshot attached in >>94612851?

>>94612912
Average Traditions poster really. Guess you do want to prove me wrong.

>>94612921
The screenshot is a tradition mage accusing the technomancers of doing something completely harmless and beneficial, which they're so earnest in believing is helpful that they're willing to test methods on themselves before inflicting incomplete methods on sleepers.

Maybe you should read the books, faglord.

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>>94612945
Megalolz

This idiot genuinely can’t grasp the difference between clear instructions explaining how the game works and prose written to evoke a fictional situation.

Imagine being so dense you think the rules are having a conversation with you

We're done here, Simple Jack.

Traditions Falseflagging or Sincere Retardation, pick one.

Some people would rather be pets than realize their true potential.
It's sad how hard the technocrats have fucked this anon's brain.

>>94612851
Yeah, everyone understands that they designated the Technocracy as the bad guys, so they do bad shit. But the reason they're designated as such is gay, just before that part it's saying it's bad that the printing press was invented, that people are empowered by technology and are no longer ruled by the mage elite. The Traditions are not about accepting different cultures or whatever platitudes, they're just old school aristocrats butthurt that the bourgeoisie replaced them.

>>94613369
Anon people aren't "empowered by technology." That's the VA and Etherite paradigm.
If anything, the Technocracy simply made a microscopic amount of magical effects so coincidental they became ingrained in the general zeitgeist. They made you DEPENDENT on technology to do the most basic stuff. You condemn the "old aristocrats" while siding with the new aristocrats.
Were Tradition leaders evil fucks who deviated from their goal? Yes. Are some of them still the same? Also yes. But mages are, at the end of the day, individuals and act as such. Compare that to the Convention leadership who are all collectivists happy to justify mass atrocities if it fits their goals.

>>94613465
>That's the VA and Etherite paradigm.
Which is why they're elitist assholes that wanted to keep their advanced tech all for themselves...
wait...

>>94613465
>They made you DEPENDENT on technology to do the most basic stuff.
Because humanity wasn't already? Anon, humanity has been dependent on technology since the invention of farming. The real difference is that the old tech was garbage and we were using it to barely survive dragon attacks, while post-technocratic technology is awsome and all the dragons are dead now.

Marauders are right, and the only reason they're not the protagonists is because it's impractical to play as one.

>>94613669
Is it? Wouldn't it just be like a multiplayer session of cultist simulator, where you're trying to stay relatively sane enough to progress towards having enough actual power that your delusions won't be delusions?

>>94613682
>you're trying to stay relatively sane
Can you even call yourself a marauder at that point? Marauders by definition are not aware their delusions are delusions.

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>>94613369
>But the reason they're designated as such is gay
Extremely descriptive, wow, 10/10 Anon.
You have the eloquence of an equine.

>Traditions are not about accepting different cultures or whatever platitudes
You gotta be pretty fucking obtuse to ignore that the Traditions are composed of essentially everybody that doesn't fit into the Technocracy's idea of what Culture is supposed to be.
Understanding other people's different cultures was such an important aspect of the game that Culture was literally a Knowledge on 1st Edition that helped you roll for that type of shit.
Oh and before you go with "any culture that is part of their background", please read Pic Related which is literally the first thing said in the chapter about character creation.

Just read the fucking books, man.
Save yourself some time.
And some face, too.

>>94613590
>Humanity has been dependent on technology since the invention of farming.
Farming was canonically invented either by Adam or by Caine in the World of Darkness.

>>94613693
>Can you even call yourself a marauder at that point?
Yes, you're just below the irretrievable point of quiet. In the M20 book you become an NPC if it goes too high but staying in the range where you're only mildly delusional and know that it spikes and wavers while you try to make it to archmastery is an explicitly supported playstyle.

>>94613732
You literally haven't substantiated a single one of your arguments from the books lol

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>>94611871
>>94612584
>Evola

Go ahead. Find me where's Evola here.

The core problem of the Tradions and the Technocracy is that they were attempting to crowbar punk Hermatic Orders vs modern science as a theme, then tried filling in with all the other new age woo woo from the 1970s forward.
Since occultism is bullshit, the writers need to contort themselves to make the Therese and worldbuilding line up.

>>94613806
*Themes not Therese’s

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>>94613788
>>94612584
>>94611871
>Evola

How to be completely retarded and tell everyone you're allergic to literacy in a single strike.

There's a goddamn half-a-page dedicatory to Robert M. Pirsig and his Quality Metaphysics as the biggest, most important influence on the creation of Mage the Ascension.

Pirsig is top-tier stuff btw, if you've never read his stuff you're missing out.

>>94613465
>people aren't empowered by technology
Jesus fucking christ the Tradition shills are seriously going at it today huh.

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>>94613953
>It’s called the Traditions, Tone.
>You break free from the Consensus, realize reality’s just a buncha lies, and then boom - ya toss fireballs at Technocrats like it’s nothin’.

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>>94613953
I didn't wrote the rules, man.
Or the lore, in this case.

>>94614025
>"Only the Tradition mages can hope to guide humanity toward harmonious ascension" -Said by the Traditions
Forgive me if I don't take their word on it. Especially when their propaganda pieces also completely fail at painting the technocracy as the bad guys.

>>94614050
>The core book is propaganda.
Bruh.

>>94613953
You need a train to do what a Correspondence 3 Mage can do better.
You need a phone to do what a Mind 3 Mage can do better.
And the worst part? That technology was invented over a hundred years before it was made available to you because daddy Technocracy thinks you're not worthy of being empowered.
Meanwhile, the Etherites and VA would make flying space trains and AI powered waifu smartphones available to everyone as soon as they're ready to be manufactured.
Again, you're not being empowered by technology. You're being dripfed the scraps to keep you docile.

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>>94614070
Trains are pretty based though.
Choo-choo, motherlovers.

>>94614062
Anon half the fucking books on vamps and woofs are internal propaganda, its a theme.

>>94614062
>Still doesn't know why the core books are written from the perspective of someone speaking to you most of the time.
Kek

>>94614125
Now imagine how much better they'd be if we had them a hundred years prior.

>>94614172
>>94614297

The both of you are applying lore from 2nd Edition to 1st Edition, which is why you're both misunderstanding the material.

There is absolutely nothing in Mage's 1st Edition Core Book that suggests its lore is written with any bias or as propaganda. The book itself doesn't have a disclaimer, and to my knowledge, no supplementary material challenges the lore presented on it.

You’re misunderstanding the lore by trying to mesh the views of different editions together. There’s a reason we have 1st and 2nd Editions, and why the "Revised" edition is called Revised and not 3rd Edition - it’s a REVISION of 2nd Edition.

If you need more clarity, remember how much of the lore was changed when 5th Edition came out.

That amazing edition that is universally loved by all of us and holds such a big space in our hearts is living proof that the lore of one edition doesn't necessarily needs to make any fucking sense when compared to the previous ones.

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>>94614372
>if we had them a hundred years prior.

If we had them a hundred years prior, that would place us in the 1700s.
For trains to have emerged this much earlier, a number of things would need to have occurred much earlier to bring about an earlier Industrial Revolution.

In my opinion, the most significant factor would be an earlier end to chattel slavery - or perhaps its complete absence.
While not the only cause of the Industrial Revolution, it's likely one of the most important contributors. The specialization of labour is often credited with driving industrialization, but it was the availability of free labour (as opposed to slave labour), on a large scale, that truly made it possible.

So, to get trains earlier in this alternate reality, we'd likely need the abolition of slavery on a global scale, which would drastically change the course of history. How this would affect the colonization of the Americas and the broader trajectory of the Industrial Revolution, though, is hard to say.

Still, it's an intriguing concept. Could make for a fascinating story or game scenario.

Now, back to the World of Darkness.
By the 1700s, the Traditions had already been ousted by the Order of Reason for over 200 years. It wasn’t the Traditions sustaining chattel slavery, it was the Order. They didn’t care much about the working class; the Ind. Rev. was a breeding ground for child labor and horrific conditions. Their "progress" was just a new form of oppression, not a solution.

Blaming the Traditions for everything while the Order sat on their hands for centuries is just an excuse for incompetence. The Order had all the time in the world to solve these problems, yet many still persist today.

In the end, the Order isn’t so different from the Traditions. The rules for those in power stay the same: keep the status quo and exploit what you can. The world doesn’t change just because the faction in charge does.

Anyway, trains are awesome.

>>94610284
>>94610642
>Shih, Sorcerers, Psychics, Imbued, Demon Hunter X, and True Faith/Inquisitors
>And unlike the various splats/half-splats, they can crossover into multiple.
What would a theoretical ascended super-hunter look like anyway? How the systems interact is up in the air.
Are hunter virtues the same thing as "Superior Virtues" in Inquisition? Do Hunter Virtues/Superior Virtues allow you to draw/store more than 5 Ki if you use Quao? Does Mana allow a Shih to burn something other than their own health to power their abilities?
Our guy would be confusing as hell to stat out, and that's before getting into how he'd be throwing around handfuls of dice like a fucking Exalted.

>>94614778
>What would a theoretical ascended super-hunter look like anyway? How the systems interact is up in the air. Are hunter virtues the same thing as "Superior Virtues" in Inquisition? Do Hunter Virtues/Superior Virtues allow you to draw/store more than 5 Ki if you use Quao? Does Mana allow a Shih to burn something other than their own health to power their abilities?

well we can make some guesses: imbued+ inqusitor should work because inqusitors are powered by true faith + insane training and true faith is the one out of splat power imbued are explictly allowed to have
imbued + sorcerer or psychics does not work as the spellbound books says they can't at all into spell linear or not
inquisitor +sorcerer should work because their book mentions that theurgy are watered down inquisitor abilities
for shi + sorcerer we only have the statment that Yi their founder was both but somehow never realized it
>Yi never truly understood that he was a sorcerer, and those who worked with him never suspected he was anything other than a man touched by the heavens
still that means it should be possible and chi is another word for quint so the power interaction should also work

as for true faith and shih we are only told that they are already extremly close
>The philosophies of Shih resemble True Faith,but they differ slightly. [skip] they see proof of their beliefs and contemplate the implications during meditation every day. For Shih, their beliefs are as solid and necessary as the need to breathe air or consume food and water; it’s as much a part of their existence as their fight against demons. This strength of purpose allows the Shih to access their Chi in ways beyond mere control over their bodies.

so they probably can't get true faith on top of that, but it would be interesting to see if they could be imbued, sadly the asian sub setting was already dead when htr came out so they don't interact at all

>>94615036
Have you seen the Trumpet of Meru section of Time of Judgment? The Shih can get their powers a bit past five dots, and also they have Chi pools that rival the mote pools of the Exalted.

>>94615153
i know, i remember a few years ago someone on here or in the exalted thread did the math of a shih vs a abyssal exalted and it was suprsingly even with exalted only having a slight edge because he was less self destructive

Can a genetically engineered in vitro born human Awaken?
Mind you, the engineering isn't anything crazy like animal-human genesplicing or something like that. More like just a soup of DNA from different people.

>>94615184
etherite frankenstein monsters (including the original one) can awaken sometimes and the union has awakened clone backup bodies and awakened clone members, it's not even a flaw to be a clone

>>94615190
Fascinating. Thanks anon.

>>94615261
Yeah clones, vat growns and frankensteins can be. Lot of fun in mage

There is one character in one of the etherite tradition boosk who mentions that he used to be in the union and to this day a group of respawning loyalist clones of himself are trying to kill him, but they can’t impersonate him anymore because they can’t copy his new etherite identificator without becoming etherites themselves

>>94611697
It was less about Jews and more about the Shoah.

>>94615329
Huh. I was asking because my character backstory is very similar to that.

>>94614297
>people forget the stuff in the pages was all meant to be a dude’s opinions.
I was annoyed when 20th went the route of having an ‘objective’ narrator, but I am fucking livid that 5th also did away with the Stereotypes sections as well.
>”but stereotypes are le bad”
They taught you through in-universe interactions how the different groups treated each other and sometimes even why, and they did it in a way that let brand new players get into the swing of things quickly.
The lack of that section is half the reason 5th feels like everything is just different shades of the same vanilla.

In Requiem, can non-clan Bloodlines like Neglatu induction other clansinto the bloodline or is it meant to be "Daeva Neglatu, Nosglatu" etc and they're all flavours of the bloodline but through their clans filter?

>>94614025
Even if they intended this as a fact, it's not some indisputable objective thing, just a vague promise. So the issue here is not "media literacy", just that we don't have to buy into these spiritual ideas.

>>94615613
Depends on the bloodline.
Negaltu is homebrew, so just decide whatever yourself

>>94616057
I thought it was from an official blog? Thanks either way.

>>94607768

I do feel like as GM, you're partly responsible for trying to put a square peg in a round hole here. Even if the peg whined and pleaded to try to fit.

>>94616348
the onyx path blog is not a canon source itself even if the same writers as the books wrote it so it's as canon as their stv books

>>94615036
Don't forget the section in sorcerer revised that explains taking more than 1 conflicting numina. The only requirement is that the character pay twice as much for the first dot in the foreign magic.
So despit everything, shih should be able to take true faith if they pay the 14 freebies(or 42 xp), which that alone explains why it's sp unheard of.
I'm pretty sure being imbued isn't a numina though. They're a splat in denial.

>>94612056
White Wolf built Mage around the premise that the Technocracy are Black Hats and the Traditions are Lily White Hats, and anything that diverges from that is either a Lone Wolf mage or something the Sleepers did (vaccines? Sleepers did it. Sexism among native peoples? Sleepers did it.).

It was fun and hip and cool when the first Matrix movie came out, but we've all grown up since then, and now it's all as dated as the Hollow Ones. And that's before you even touch the metaphysical stupidity of the game itself, which people have been arguing for decades until they realize the game itself is just kind of dumb.

The developers never gave the writers proper consistent guidelines on how the mechanics were supposed to work, and didn't really understand what the hell they wanted the game to be beyond "Good Trads holding hands against Evil Technos". All that stuff about -some- Technocrats working to make the world a better place and all that was a much later addition after players got tired of thinking the people making their medicines and crop yields and HVAC were Mustache Twirling Evil. And even then White Wolf kept a faction of Technos in reserve as Villains for the sake of Villainy.

It's a dumb, dated game, made so by design.

>>94614778
Weirdly enough, Mummy also throws its hat in the ring. Sorcerer Revised allows sorcerers to learn Hekau and MtR player's guide allows sorcerers to modify their Mana rating to also function as a Balance rating.
Given Mummy already makes true faith and balance equivalent, an inquisitor with sorcery is probably how people get true faith ratings of 5+ without relics.

>>94616514
It's official material

>>94616579
>probably how people get true faith ratings of 5+ without relics.
Catholic bishops wearing egyptian ahnks suddenly makes a lot more sense

>>94615036
Shih Sorcerers should probably be required to take the "Flow of Chi" sorcerer merit. For flavor if nothing else.

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>ananasi
>the forbidden spidussy
This shouldn't have awakened something in me but it did

>>94616538
Given what happens in ToJ, conviction and Ki are most likely the same thing, but external vs internal given how inquisitors/imbued don't kill themselves.
The pools should probably stack(max 20 total points)
>>94616579
Then mana and conviction probably take up the same "slot", so an inquisitor with the mana background would have the ability to recharge conviction more easily, spend more per turn, and has more uses for it, but his max remains 10.

>>94616614
>This shouldn't have awakened something in me
That's the ananasi's whole thing. They're basically the original template for vampire in WoD cosmology. The spidussy was optimized for this, anon.

>>94615699
What you mean is you don't have to play the damn game as intended.

Which is true, but you also don't come and discuss your stupid make-believe head canon as a fact, retard.

>>94616558
>It's a dumb, dated game, made so by design.

lmao Vampirefag is butthurt his game line tanked

Go sink the Curseborne ship and fuck off, asshat.

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>>94616614
Lesbian Scissoring is (pejoratively) called spider-fighting in some Latin American countries.

>>94616614
Funny thing about the ananasi, there shpuld be more of then than humanity even if the war of rage wiped out 99.99999% of them.
The spider population has never been healthier in human cities, they spawn thousands of spider-kinfolk per breeding partner, and ananasi are the only fera with multiple bodies in animal-form, meaning they're the only fera able to bypass the 1 fera-per-litter rule by having thousands of litters at once.
Ananasi are also on of the breeds that produce healthy metis rather than inbred freaks, so they have no taboos against mating with eachbother for guarannteed shifters.

>>94616758
>>94616758
lol that's hilarious. Source?

>>94616812
>Weaver just can't stop winning.
How is the wyrm even a threat? Assuming its not part of the weaver's master plan anyway...

>>94616832
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spider%20fight

>>94616864
If you go by One World of Darkness cosmology instead of separate-splat cosmology, then a good chunck of end times scenarios result in the apocolyptic forces of decay getting a few days to go crazy before the guantlet suddenly becomes impervious, hunters/shih are buffed to Exalted levels and initiate supernatural genocide on all splats, and a cosmic event starts withering all blood-god vampires into dust.
It's seriously likely that the wyrm isn't actually the threat the garou think it is.

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>>94616832
>I climbed on my backyard wall
>And saw some fucking
>That wasn't normal
>And nobody will believe me
>I saw two women
>spiders fighting in a pit

>A pair of spiders, A pair of spiders
>A pair of spiders, A pair of spiders
>C'mon girl, don't be a hider
>My snake
>Wants to eat your spider

>My whole body got into to a shook
>And not even my snake understood
>How can it be
>Two spiders a-rubbing
>It is my understanding
>That there's something that they're snubbing

>It's my snake, a tricky snake
>It's my snake, a tricky snake
>C'mon girl, don't be a hider
>My snake
>Wants to eat your spider

>There must be a good reason
>For what those spiders
>Are doing in this position
>One above, one below
>And my snake wondering
>Where do I fit, where do I go?

>It's my snake, a tricky snake
>It's my snake, a tricky snake
>C'mon girl, don't be a hider
>My snake
>Wants to eat your spider

>I set my snake loose
>And it went on full run
>To between the spiders
>To show 'em how its done
>Snake and spider
>That's how things are
>Spider with Spider
>Just ends in a wrestling spar

>It's my snake,
>Snake with spider
>It's my snake,
>Snake with spider
>C'mon girl, don't be a hider
>My snake
>Wants to eat your spider

>It's the spider rock
>It's the spider rock
>It's the spider rock
>It's the spider rock
>C'mon girl, don't be a hider
>My snake
>Wants to eat your spider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcEfm7wJnUk

>>94616988
Mind you, those lyrics are essentially a Musical Shitpost made by the author to piss off the government censors back in the day.

>>94616812
>even if the war of rage wiped out 99.99999% of them.
Assuming it wiped out any of them. Ananasi already fought and won a war against an opponent with the same kind of swarm tactics the garou were using to decimate during the WoR.

>>94616707
We're talking about Mage. I know vampire lives rent free in your mind like it does all magefags but vampire has no bearing on the discussion here.

>>94617293
The whole of the world of darkness lives rent free in the heads of the fanbase, retard, that's literally how fanbases work.

Trying to make something you're a fan off pay rent is how you turn into a shill.

>>94616922
>withering all blood-god vampires into dust
The funniest part of that scenario is the writers not realizing they accidentally made several vampires capable of surviving it, including at least one Antedeluvian.
The "kills you anywhere in the unverse" line doesn't matter when a vampire-god travels to the future After the withering is already over instead of standing in the poison fog like a dumbass.

>>94616558
>>94617293
>hmmm yessss hmm
>tasty, tasty shoe sole
>stained with a bit of mud
>hmmm yes delicious
>hmmmm its not mud it's dog shit
>my favourite
>gods, I love licking boot
>please stomp my face harder corpodaddy

>>94614778
>What would a theoretical ascended super-hunter look like anyway?
Depends, how the fuck are you getting enough xp to get anywhere? You'd need more training than a fucking navy seal and the life of an action movie protagonist before you could be useful.

>>94617492
>how the fuck are you getting enough xp to get anywhere?
It's easier than you'd think.
Inquisitor powers and virtues are bought with conviction rather than xp(like HtR), so you only need the True Faith merit to begin. Beyond that, you could largely get awa with just being straight Shih with the Mana background for easy conviction gain and a ki source that doesn't kill you.
On top of that, not all paths, quao, or psychic powers are made equal.
For paths, Summoning stands head and shoulders above everything else, Then Mana manipulation as a closed second, and rounded off with Alchemy and Enchantment competing for third place. Everything else is cool, even powerful, but nowhere near the top 3-4. If you include Hekau here, then they all fall between the top 4 and the rest.
Quao are headed by pheonix(healing and immortality), followed by mirror(ignore/reverse life/magic-draining), devil-fighter(bigger dice pools), and dreams(free therapy+refresh willpower). Like paths, the rest are a tier below.
Psychic powers are lead by psychic vampirism(Unlimited Willpower), Soul Stealing (same thing worse, but also let you gain gnosis), synergism(combine powers for new effects, depends on the power of friendship), Mind shields, and then the rest.

>>94617492
The infernalist anon from 2 threads back pointed out an infinite easy xp source. The fomori power Brain Eater doesn't require human targets.
A funny thing about inquisitors is that they only lose their powers if they take a demon pact, they get to keep their powers if they're possessed and then have the demon/spirit exorcised. So you could have an inquisitor go through a parody of the "Final Test" from dragon age origin. Have them be temporarily possessed by a weak "demon"(bane), have them take the "Brain Eater" power Only(resisting any temptations from the "demon" for other powers), exclusively use brain eater to make some local farm animals more docile(hundreds-to-thousands of xp easily), and the exorcise the "demon" with their own faith.
Bam! New super-hunter with a massive pool of banked xp, ready to be spent on any training the org can provide.
(Ignoring the number of potentials that'd fail and become horrible monsters anyway. Luckily neither Shih or Inquisitor powers are usable during possession).

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>>94617946
>Ignoring the number of potentials that'd fail and become horrible monsters anyway.

>“Zir, zee subjects vill likely die horribly or mutate into abominations!”
>“Bah! Zat is irrelevant! Vee haf zee numbers!”
>“Zey vill destroy our enemies first, ja? For zee glory of zee Union!”
>“But, zir—”
>“NO BUTS! Zink of zee potential, Doctor! Zee GLORRY! Zee innovation! Zee SUPER SOLDIERS!”
>“And Doctor... if you fail, YOU vill be zee next subject!”

>>94617946
Considering the setting, at least one branch of this org would have the "failures" shipped to a pentex subsidiary under the pretence of "curing" them.

>>94614577
God, I wish for a train fucking planet

>>94617991
>>94618029
Remember kids, infernalism is Bad. The devil's offer might be tempting, but he can't* offer you anything you couldn't have gotten yourself(eventually... at least given you master the pheonix quao and become immortal first anyway).

>*please ignore all the awesome demon powers that are actually impossible to get otherwise.

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>>94618065
Sorry Anon.
Best I can do is a train fucking a tunnel.

>>94618145
Busted that crust

>>94618169
The tunnussy.

>>94616662
Hmm, I will integrate this idea into my ideal vampire. How do we harmonize vampires with the Triat and the Balance Wyrm? How do we restore Life (not being alive) to dead creatures? Maybe there is room for werespider magic.

>>94616922
The long-term issue is that the resolution to the supernatural question always involves turning the Gauntlet to lead, which will slowly kill reality. Is the idea that it's like an antibiotic you time perfectly? Or is that part of the plan?

>>94618194
>How do we restore Life (not being alive) to dead creatures?
This is answered in gehenna: lilith's blood. It turns anyone who drinks it into a living beings with all their vampire powers and then some.

>>94618194
There is always room for more spidussy

>>94618230
Yeah, but that's the lamest possible answer

>>94618203
Depends who does it appearantly. If the Weaver does it? reality dies. If the Amenti or Jade Emporer does it? Then supernatural creatures are fucked, but the rest of humanity/earth is fine.

>>94618230
I haven't read Gehenna in like 20 years.

Do you mind refreshing my memory on how this works? Or just point me in the general direction of where I can find this in the book.

I'm quite curious as to what is the in-game explanation as to why someone else's blood can essentially cure Vampirism.

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You DO have your character ready for tonight's session, right anon?

>>94618076
>*please ignore all the awesome demon powers that are actually impossible to get otherwise.
How does a theoretical hunter super-super compare next to a the theoretical competent infernalist from 2 threads back?

>>94618269
It's in the endings of the "Fair is Foul" scenarion Vampires Time of Judgement: Gehenna supplement.

>>94614386
Werewolf between the editions more or less is the exact same, so I disagree with your reasoning here. Though every game's first edition core book presents a very different take compared to what comes in even the books released immediately after.

>>94618302
Have you checked W5?

>>94618273
Nigga I’m the storyteller.

>>94618303
Shut the fuck up don't remind me. WtA to WtF is less of a jump than to W5.

>>94618269
Lilith dindu nuffin she a good gal. Reject the evil caine and join with her and you get to be a super vampire with no drawbacks.

Gehenna was awful.

>>94618287
The hunter gets his shit rocked unless we're in the ToH scenario where hunters get a boosted to exhaulted levels.
In the latter case it's basically even.

>>94618332
>Shut the fuck up don't remind me.
I feel you, bro.

>WtA to WtF is less of a jump than to W5.
I know.

>>94618336
I remember that end scenario now, its the one where Abel shows up and whatnot. I think this was the one I liked the least, because of how out of the curve it is compared to what I was expecting. I didn't hate it I just thought it was so weird it might belong in a different game line altogether.

I liked Wormwood because it was easier to run, and Nightshade because it was more in terms of what I was expecting the ending to be.

>>94618340
>In the latter case it's basically even.
So it takes hundreds of years of training and fucking Divine Intervention for a hunter to equal what a competent infernalist could do in their lifetime?
Team Good just can't stop losing can they...

>>94617311
Ravnos and at least one his infernalist Methusela have the ability to survive as well. There's hindu-bullshit version of chimerstry advvanced powers that lets them stop existing for set periods of time.

Have you guys ever played child characters?
I want to try playing one, either a Mage or a Changeling. More inclined to playing the former because learning CtD lore looks genuinely intimidating.

>>94618371
>Team Good just can't stop losing can they...
One of the weirdest deep lore pointsbin WoD is it'd actually be the morally superior option for "team good" to stop struggling because they only make shit worse.
One of the "Win" scenarios for the amenti permanently separate the material and umbra, one of werewolf's "wins" is putting the fucking Wyld in charge, for vampire all of its "win" scenarios allow the leeches to continue existing, etc.

>>94618401
>infernalist Methusela
Didn't that guy become a yama king?

>>94618440
I've played with one in a Vampire game. It went alright, the player managed to keep it believably child-like without becoming either burden or nuisance. Unofortunately most pople in the hobby can't really be trusted to do the same.

>>94618440
There is a book about that. Look into Innocents book for CofD and the Child Flaw for vampire.
>>94618313
I was about to make the same joke.
>>94616864
>How is the wyrm even a threat?
Nuclear Armageddon and pollution. The problem is that life finds a way even if humanity doesn't.

>>94618440
I once made a Sailor Saturn Euthanatos. I'm not proud if it. She even had a Scythe talisman of sorts.

>>94618788
So, given that assigning each Sailor to a planet is obvious, is Tuxedo Mask a Hollow One?

>>94617067
And you can always throw a 5 dot ritual for them to diverge into another changing breed like the Red Talons have.

Honest question, how many separate instances of magical eugenics are there in WoD?

>>94618479
Wormwood literally ends with the destruction of all vampires or God purifying them.

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>>94618440
I once ran a Dark Ages: Mortal campaign where half the characters were pre-teens and the rest were teenagers. Each had a unique arc that intertwined with the story’s larger themes of growth and power. I had just started playing Crusader Kings (the original one) back in College and was in love with the theme of Crusades, so the story was set during the march for the 1st Crusade.

One child trained as a physician and was on the cusp of Awakening under the mentorship of a Hermetic mage. Another struck a demonic pact to survive the Black Plague, setting him on a path to both Awakening and becoming a demonologist. Among the older characters, one was a blacksmith and staunch man of science. I had plans for him to eventually play a pivotal role in founding the Proto Order of Reason.

The final character was the group’s de facto protagonist, a Folk Hero. He had a unique mechanic tailored to the player’s personality and style. Whenever he performed heroic feats, he could add a relevant Virtue score to his rolls. For example, his usual Strength of 3 would rise to 7 for extraordinary acts like leaping a chasm to save his friends or wrestling a Jotunn and winning. This mechanic wasn’t just a game rule, it reflected the character’s heroic essence.

What made this chronicle truly special (to me, the ST, at least) was that the players never had access to their own character sheets. They described their concepts, and I created the character sheets for them. The Folk Hero’s player, for instance, didn’t even realize his abilities were tied to virtuous actions - it just happened that in this particular chronicle, his choices were always naturally virtuous. He only noticed that sometimes he’d roll 3 dice for Strength and sometimes 7, but never pieced together the reason. Watching that authenticity unfold at the table made the campaign unforgettable.

>>94618371
If Good were consistently winning in the World of Darkness, it wouldn’t be the World of Darkness. The whole point is that Good only wins enough to keep the world barely resembling our own - where Good doesn’t always prevail but still triumphs more often than in the Wold of Darkness.

It’s a horror setting by design: things are bleak, violent, and corrupt so that players can either make their light shine brighter against the darkness or fall into it without much repercussions.

>>94618937
There's literally all Fera, Revenants, the various Half-Splats, and Gypsies
Since so many halfies are Merits, you can technically build a character that's a Nephilim, both kinds of Dhampir/Dhampyr, Kinfolk, Kinian, and Romani all at once(if you can somehow cough up that many freebie points).

>>94619256
Don't forget stacking them has extra benefits. The now-extinct family of shadowlord kinfolk that the tzimisce turned into Revenants were able to use gifts up to level 3 despite kinfolk normally being stuck to level 1.
If you template-stack like you just suggested, the resulting crime against nature could potentially be on par with full splats.

>>94607892
>the craftmasons abandoned the spiritual, man!
Meanwhile the Void Engineers are over here doing actual science to spiritual crafting, often by using computers to automate thought processes responsible for shaping spiritual essence

>>94619392
You can tell the Void Engineers are dope and that there's a lot of potential for a WoD Sci Fi adventures by the fact even the most staunch Traditionalist defenders fucking love the Void Engineers.

>>94619340
I mean, if you somehow make a KotE Dhampyr into a ghoul, despite that normally being impossible, then you've just made a half-splat whose discipline limits(but not resource pool) are increased by Age into an immortal. Ghoul's resource limits(but not discipline limits) are also increased by age...

>>94619413
Even if you ignore the scifi adventure stuff, they're also the only faction doing *actual* science to try to figure out how Magick works.

>>94619600
My opinion on the subject is that everyone born during or after the 1960s has Space Blue Balls
.
We were promised the cosmos and we're still stuck on this fucking flying spinning rock bickering over frankly stupid stuff.

And we're closer to locking ourselves in here forever via filling our Lower Earth Orbit with trash, than of ever getting out of it.

That'd make for an interesting Werewolf story methinks: sending Captain-Planet-with-a-body-count OUT of the Planet.

>>94619446
you could maybe use the Elixir of Eternal Life(chinese spell of life) on them
the chinese mummies are from the revised edition and the mummies with the new spell of life are alive and can be ghouled unlike the old versions

so a dhampir or revenants might get to keep their side splat

>>94619778
Unfortunately no. The abomination rules from 2e still carry over, so mummification "Purifies" the subject of whatever they had before(unless you're fera, they you get 2 lifecycles before you're lost in the umbra forever).

>>94619647
Already a thing.

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>>94619917
>A-thing
God bless you, Anon.

You mean the Weewoos-in-Space STV book?

>>94619913
>unless you're fera, they you get 2 lifecycles before you're lost in the umbra forever
to be fair that´s something owl did to wepauwet but yeah as of w20 he seems to have died and turned into a spirit

i wonder what would happen with something like a capacocha were-serpent mummy because even most spirits think they are extinct and the capacocha have rituals that allow their cultists to bring them back

might be worth to try if only for horus' face when he sees a serpent mummy

>>94616583
>OPP shitposters literally calling their homebrew official
lmao
Welfare line lifestyle hitting your willpower hard on that Vice: Pride?

>>94619340
>Don't forget stacking them has extra benefits.
How the fuck do you rule/calculate that bullshit though?
Why are revenant kinfolk able to use gifts up to third level anyway? Nothing about gifts or caine's curse make sense to combine like that.

>>94619340
>>94620265
>Why are revenant kinfolk able to use gifts up to third level anyway? Nothing about gifts or caine's curse make sense to combine like that.
it's not something inherent they asked grandfather thunder and his crows for tools to rebel against the tzimisce, build shrines for him etc

the only inherent benefit the family had was the strange ability to power gifts with vitae

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>>94620134
Why the Ow-Pee-Pee hate?

4 strength v5 tremere ask me anything

>>94620324
It's a troll.

>>94620349
https://youtu.be/u1f0MWuX55g?si=FZdieZChQAiPzQ4k&t=11

>>94620324
What's not to hate?
It'd be like if the V5/W5 authors were in this thread, shitting it up at every opportunity. They're also lying to people about what is and isn't part of their abortion.

>>94620285
>power gifts with vitae
Not that strange. DAV20 Book of Secrets reveals that the old pre-sabbat Tzimisce can do the same thing. Old-Style Koldunism apparently allows them to use a kind of gift system.
This also goes to show how retarded their degenerate modern offspring are considering that's on top of forgetting how to use Roads and Kraina after the anarch revolt.

>>94620285
>they asked grandfather thunder and his crows for tools to rebel against the tzimisce
Wait, so this entire time kinfolk have been 100% capable of using higher level gifts if the spirits would just let them? Their limits are almost entirely social rather than practical?
Jesus Christ, that changes the context of a lot of things.

>>94620414
That's always been true

>>94620374
>What's not to hate?
I'm no fan of OPP, and I’ve got my criticisms of them, but mocking someone for being on welfare isn’t exactly a clever insult. It boils down to saying, "Hahaha, I used to support you by buying your work, but now I support you through my taxes so you can chill and play vidya all day". It’s just needlessly mean and counterproductive. And kind of a self-own, honestly.

>It'd be like if the V5/W5 authors were in this thread,
At this point, ragging on Fifth Edition feels like making fun of a kid with a broken leg who insists on running races and then trips over their own shoelaces. Like, yeah, it’s cringeworthy, but is it really worth your time to keep dunking on it? Let it stumble around, it’s doing a fine job embarrassing itself without any help.

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>>94620414
>Wait, so this entire time kinfolk have been 100% capable of using higher level gifts if the spirits would just let them? Their limits are almost entirely social rather than practical?
yeah
>The father of their family often ventured into the dark woods to pray for deliverance from the cruel Tzimisce that bred his family like animals. Spirits of the night answered his call of distress. He learned to distinguish the many occult forces waiting to aid him by means of his vampiric sight. Many had sworn fealty to an even more powerful force — Grandfather Thunder himself. By the mid-14th century, the Danislavs will use Thunder’s Dark Gifts to overthrow Count Florescu. The count’s mansion will be shattered by thunder and lightning from the heavens, and the Danislavs will claim his fiefdom as their own. Their triumph will be short-lived. In 1399, several Tzimisce will unite to destroy them
the part describing their disciplines also says that some of them know the protean wolf form so Count Florescu should be a 5th gen and they got enough power from grandfather thunder and friends to kill him

they also don't need renown they just need to pay out of discipline exp cost and make a pact with the spirit i guess to make sure they don't fall to the wyrm

>>94620391
ah okay i didn't knew that, that's nice

>>94620371
goratrix

>>94620391
acording to the same book mortals sorcerers can also learn koldunism as blood sorcery (meaning every spell costs them a damage step to cast) so someone born a complete normie could learn gifts if they put in the effort

>>94620550
good answer

>>94620555
Damn look at those trips.

>>94620550
>Gayratrix

>>94620552
That's stupid, blood and vitae are different things. The magical focus is what's special about vitae.

>>94620617
yeah tome of secrets is a silly book. it's the same book that says you only need 5 dots in dark thaumaturgy to bind a maejin, you know the banes who are stronger than most gods and slightly stronger than baba yaga who had thaumaturgy 9

>>94620617
It's not that stupid. For example: tremere thaumaturgy is just normal path magic that's been adapted to vampiric principles of blood magic so they could keep using it. It's not too weird for mortal sorcerers to reverse engineer it the opposite way.

>>94620617
you still need to spend willpower as a mortal sorcerer and if the spell needs more than 1 blood point you also need a extra round and a extra wound for each blood point over 1 to cast it

tome of secret actually makes it harder than other books to be a mortal blood sorcerer however as sorcerer revised and m20 have the damage of mortal blood magic be lethal while tome of secret says that mortal blood sorcerers take aggravated damage so it's close to impossible to be one if you don't also know healing

>>94620798
>aggravated damage
Aggravated and Lethal damage are the same thing for mortals. It'd be an issue if they were a Mage, but a weird immunity to the worst effects of aggravated damage until they become one of the full splats.

>>94620837
oh i thought sorcerers would soak the same as mages

>>94620844
Given how they start talking about pillars in the same section, the aggravated damage "nerf" was probably to keep Mages from trying to get easy magic that doesn't cause scourge/paradox. It does fuck-all to sorcerers.