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>>94635966
>CHECK 'EM

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>>94635977
>CHECK 'EM AGAIN

>>94635966
>Have you ever taken something from oWoD and put it in a nWoD/CofD game or vice versa?
Yes, why wouldn't I transplant the parts I like from one part to another? Especially the more universal stuff like powers.

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>>94635966
>TQ
I used the Storytelling System for a few oWoD stories (mostly Mage but some Vampire too) during the time between the release of nWoD and 20th anniversary.
Specifically, for stories I was playing with my regulars and some other veterans that wanted to try the new system but didn't had time to read the books.
Back then we didn't thought oWoD was ever gonna make a come back, so I just ran Ascension games with Most of Awakening's mechanics.
Entropy was still Entropy, and the Spheres still worked mostly like on Ascension - I figured nobody was gonna re-learn all of that stuff that took 'em years to internalise.
I dropped this completely when 20th Anniversary came out.
Mind you, while I was running games like this for my personal friends, when I'd DM to strangers or noobs, I'd just use good ol' Revised Storyteller System.
This was especially important when dealing with newcomers, it's important to teach 'em the formal system as described in the books and avoid your homebrews.
In a sense, being an ST is kinda like being a teacher too and I felt it was my responsibility not to impart my "vices" into the next generation.
And boi, did I drill those rules into the noobs.

>>94636114
I realise now I should've added a "How?" to the TQ after the first question to prevent smartasses from giving a two or three letter answer like that.

We live and we learn.

https://youtu.be/xPNJuwURXZE?t=69
tl;dr some more short clips from Chpater 5 of Hunter the Parenting (coming soon tm).
Also a Kevin and Guy Chapman audiolog will drop soon too.

>>94636165
>>94635966
>Have you ever taken something from oWoD and put it in a nWoD/CofD game or vice versa?
No

>>94636181
The most important bit is that they're branching to other properties, and nothing about any content deals with the world of darkness IP holders in the future.
This means they're hedging their bets there.
A very smart thing to do; being 100% attached to the World of Darkness has always been the biggest mistake White Wolf made. They tried branching out with Exalted and Trinity and other game lines but never had the same success.

>>94636193
They've been burned before by GW so this makes a lot of sense on their part, especially since Paradox has been more and more hands off with wod and may sell the IP if Bloodline 2 bombs to a new holder that may not be as accepting to fan content. I just hope they don't bite off more than they can chew with that many projects.

So how do we succeed at diablerie? Assumptions:
>V20 Black hand rules
>both sides have 10 points of permanent willpower
>diablerist has 5 points in every one of the 'normal' disciplines of the core book, but nothing from e.g. niche bloodlines
>diablerist has 5 points in every thaumaturgy/necromancy/koldunism/etc. path and every ritual in a valid V20 book
>victim is in torpor, at diablerist's leisure to debuff with every tool they have available to them
>diablerist has an unlimited opportunity to buff themselves with the disciplines/rituals that they have
>diablerist drops a single generation from the act

Baseline:
>each side rolls 10 dice, difficulty 5 for victim, 7 for drinker
>drinker scores 4 successes (4-1 botch) + 1 for spending willpower, victim scores 5 (6-1 botch) successes
>target number 10 vs 10
Currently in favor for victim, and extremely far from certain victory.

Known bonuses so far:
>Armor of Diamond Serenity (Rites of Blood, pg 166 - this is just a Sadhana (thaumaturgy) ritual)
+2 target successes for victim, -2 difficulty on roll for diablerist
>Dark Thaumaturgy Path of Phobos 4: Fear Plague
-3 to target's effective permanent willpower
>True Love Merit
1x Automatic success on all willpower rolls

>>94636207
>may sell the IP
Where have you heard about this? Other than people joking around in here.

>>94636210
They clearly only bought the IP so they can cash in on Bloodlines with a sequel. However they've wasted so much money on the project with three different dev teams. If it bombs what else can they do. Because they sure as hell ain't making a lot from the 6 5th edition books they release per year.

>>94636233
>If it bombs what else can they do
Literally anything else?
It's not like nobody's ever pitched anything to do with the franchise to Paradox.

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I'm going nighty-night now Anons.

Keep on dubbing like crazy.

>>94636209
if you are fine with dark thaum already then "The Taking of the Spirit" let's you drain willpower from people you touch till they hit zero and become your slave (duration depens on the path rating) or fight you off in a contested willpower roll, but you already mentioned how stack that in your favor and the worst thing that can happen if you both lose and botch it is that you lose 5 temporary willpower that return in two weeks a point and can't use that path on the victim for a year, but if the victim is in topor that's nothing because you can just wait

>>94636270
How does that help? You have to accrue successes until you hit their Permanent Willpower, I'm assuming from the outlay that the victim is unable to spend willpower against you.
>if you are fine with dark thaum
I'd rather avoid it if possible but listing it for the sake of completeness.

>>94635966
Sort off...? There was a splat for playing oWoD with the Requiem ruleset we played a campaign with. We started in the early 1800's and played through to modern nights past the battle of New York. The devotions and fighting style merits were fun to play around with; you could make some really neat combos.

>>94636233
I mean, that's basically what happened with CCP after they spent a decade fucking around with the IP and not getting close to having a deliverable MMO like they wanted.

>>94636297
at zero willpower you can't muster the fight to do anything against anything regardless of if the action is "mentally, physically, and spiritually" so the victim does not get to roll anything at all

>>94636345
In that case, you can simplify it down to making the torpid vampire buttchug a couple gallons of the level two (To Lace with Hidden Nectar, pg 84 Rites of Blood) setite ritual beer, no infernalism or path points required.

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So I just finished watching pic related for the first time and I can't help but wonder how much it inspired the Technocracy.
You have essentially Syndicate (big business corpo-heads commanding private hit squads) and NWO (sort of, as the company has its own TV studio and seeks to control all narratives, eventually painting themselves as both the victims and the good guys), Iteration X to a lesser degree (super high tech building) and Christopher Lee as a Progenitor (with weird DNA splicing and cloned subordinates included). There's even a (fake) vampire!
Despite being looney tunes level of cartoony, it somehow feels "WoD-coded" at times.
I think I'm going to shamelessly rip it off for the next time my players need a short adventure between mayor events.

>>94636377
fair, my mind just went there because that's exactly the combo (taking+ phobos) i did once to get rid of a vampire our st told me had "impressive mental fortitude" which is the same wording the corebook uses for willpower 10

did that one anon ever finish his caitiff fan book? my player asked me if i could run a pander heavy book for them and i find the reading material around them to be kinda lacking and could need some npc inspiration

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>>94635977
Boy I wish the MK threads hadn't let the /fgg/ schizos chase them off

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>>94636447
I remember a nearly complete version. Sadly, I didn't save it.

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>>94636447
>>94636469
>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/92634953/#q92638907
best i could find

>Be Wraith
>70% of your powers are useless in the Skinlands
>Voice in your head always telling you to kill yourself
>Said voice in your head can also ACTUALLY kill you
>The politics of your realm is like the Camarilla Ultra Instinct on steroids
What the fuck?

>>94636581
nobody said being dead is easy, otherwise everyone would do it

/x/ is technocratic propaganda meant to make you think anyone who talks about magic is completly delusional or trolling

>>94636463
so that's why MK never get talked about on /vg/ i did wonder

>>94637150
I believe it.
The Occult Literature general threads suddenly disappeared, and they were probably the only people who seriously discussed magick instead of acting like schizos.
Also the tradchristians shitting up the board became insufferable. So you can blame the Society of Leopold and Chorister acolytes too.

>>94637232
> tradchristians shitting up the board became insufferable. So you can blame the Society of Leopold and Chorister acolytes too.
nta but that's actually what chased me off that board so fuck leopold

>>94637232
There have been a whole bunch of /x/ exoduses. I don't really think there's a conspiracy, it's just been taken over with tumblr/witchtok retards and their tradlarper equivalents since the site as a whole is mainstream these days.

>>94635765
What are the main lore differences? The biggest I can think of right now is Geist 2e, the Underworld works differently, and the whole game has a pretty different vibe, but I haven't really read the 1e and 2e of every game.

>>94637248
Depends on what you're asking. I was lmaoing specifically at the implication that shit like the god machine chronicle and strix and stuff aren't big (and unwelcome) lore changes.

I had already given up all hope for 2e before the mage splats came out but things I can say without checking the specifics: Stygia isn't Stygia, Arcadia isn't Arcadia, the Divine Fire isn't the Divine Fire, and the Primal Wild has nothing to do with spirits at all. Inferno demons now come from lower realms instead of hell, not that inferno exists as a book in 2e. Neither mage nor mortal have basically any compatibility with other splats anymore.

Geist is almost completely different, yeah. 2e geists are just big ghosts, not ghost/spirits.

Gentry are back to being dogshit worthless garbage that would get chewed up by a starting character like they were at the start of CtL. It's even worse now because they're universally the same in many ways and have a specific and rigid progression through dreams, instead of really being unique individuals.

Most vampire lore got thrown out, and strix got hammered in as hard canon and omnipresent.

God machine got forced as a thing that you just constantly run into and builds gay boxes that you find holes in all the time instead of just being a background setting conceit.

>>94637248
Neither of those anons but the lore of 1e as a monolith goes largely unchanged in 2e. There are lots of specific things that got changed throughout the game lines but very rarely are these foundational elements or anything that changes a game's core themes and flavors.

Geist is fairly different but less than you'd expect, most of what changed there is really a shift in focus and themes rather than a true change in the setting. So GtSE 1e and 2e are generally very compatible because they're mostly just talking about different parts of the same thing. 1e deals a lot more with Sin-Eater society and the more human side of things where as 2e is more about the Underworld and the spiritual side of the Bargain. 1e's Underworld was a dark and horrific place but it's not something that was used as the thrust of the game's narrative. In 2e it's still a dark and horrific place the emphasis is now on using that and trying to change it. There are some discrete lore changes to the underlying mechanics of the Underworld but a lot of what has changed there is generally just about presentation and a shift in focus rather than a shift to the setting itself. Things like Reapers are new in 2e too but they're not really shaking things up, they're just there.

Most games are sort of in a similar spot. Vampire changed the least with its lore changes mostly revolving around a few things like Golconda going away and the Circle being a more recent Covenant. WtF got a similar sort of refocus as GtSE did, more about the hunt and balance but those were present elements of 1e. The big changes are really just getting rid of unihar there. Mage pulled back pretty hard on the Atlantis stuff and as such probably shifts more than most games, but on the flip side it matters less as a change because of the nature of Atlantis. The Supernal also shifted a lot from realms as places to more realms as ideas, but Mage isn't my game though. PtC didn't really change much off the top of my head.

>>94637311
>Neither of those anons but the lore of 1e as a monolith goes largely unchanged in 2e. There are lots of specific things that got changed throughout the game lines but very rarely are these foundational elements or anything that changes a game's core themes and flavors.
>Supernal realms, the literal monolithic foundation of the setting, were all but axed (much to the detriment of any splat tied to one)
What did he mean by this?

>>94637277
>Inferno demons now come from lower realms instead of hell
The lower depth of Hell, you mean?

>>94637324
No?
Hell is the mind/space supernal realm.

>>94637327
>Each Lower Depth is unable to retain a critical constituent of existence; it’s either absent, or has been distorted into something hostile to ordinary existence. Sometimes the lack can be defined by an Arcanum. A Depth realm without Death might be choked with endless knots of imperishable flesh and plant matter. Other depths lack less definable principles, such as Shape, Identity, and Righteousness. Some mages situate Hell here, because the entities known as akathartoi (“unclean ones”) closely resemble the demons of Abrahamic legend, feeding from human depravity.

>>94637334
Good for you, schizo?
Yes, 2e has it's own retarded lore which has nothing to do with Inferno or where demons come from.

>>94636233
>Bought the IP to make Bloodlines
According to Chris Avellone, HSL pitched BL2 to Paradox way after Paradox had already acquired the brand. So, no

>>94636313
>CCP
Paradox has almost 6 times the Revenue that CCP has.
They might both be "Nordics" but they don't compare in size or how much firepower they can put in battery if they have to.

>>94637341
That's talking about Infernals. Akathartoi are the demons from Inferno.
>The Children of the Seventh Generation are descended, in some fashion, from demons that come from a Lower Depth some mages call the Inferno. The Awakened know these beings as akathartoi.

>>94637350
Good for you schizo?

>>94637354
I accept your concession.

Hej since you two lil fags are playing cock and ball torture over CofD/nWoD here, how about either of you write me a sum up of what's changed between 1e to 2e so I don't have to go through hours of not super great youtube to try and find it without having to read like six books?

Sleep is for the weak, four hours is all I need

>>94637355
You literally just proved yourself wrong lmao

>>94637360
Inferno doesn't exist in 2e, there isn't a comparison to make, it's just missing.

>>94637320
Only magefags think their game makes up the entire body of work for the whole fucking line, no one likes a magefag. MtAw is not the setting as a whole, anon.

>>94637360
I did most of the high points >>94637311 but if you've got questions I can give you answers.

>>94637365
Infernals are referenced in at least 5 gamelines in 2e, anon. It's okay to not know everything about a game.

>>94637365
>No Inferno

Thats all?

>>94637381
See >>94637277

>>94637380
>It's okay to not know everything about a game.
I can see why >you would tell yourself that, lol

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>>94637365
Retard.

>>94637381
Just ignore them.

>>94637393
That demon is hot.

>>94637311
>Mage pulled back pretty hard on the Atlantis stuff and as such probably shifts more than most games
That caught my interest, for obvious reasons.
Can you develop a bit more on that?

>>94637277
> Neither mage nor mortal have basically any compatibility with other splats anymore.
This is quite a big one methinks. Splat compatibility was nWoD's biggest strength IMO.
That, and the modularisation, with the rules being on a single book etc.

>Most vampire lore got thrown out
Hm the anon on >>94637311 said Vampire lore had changed very little, wtf.

There's a big disagreement in opinions there, I think "little" and "most" are quantifiable enough that we should be able to assess which statement holds water. It's not better or worse, it's more and less, right? Those things are quantifiable.

>God machine
That wasn't even a thing when I stopped playing nWoD, I just followed what it was from the sidelines and from hearing people talk about it.

>>94637408
>No Neck
>Head twice the size of everybody else's
You can have the demon, I rather stick to the two girls on the side, thanks.

>>94637432
Vampire lore didn't change hugely, they just put more and less focus on certain things and made some gameplay changes. Strix have been pushed as the main antagonist of the game but you can still run the game perfectly fine without them, they just add lots and lots of "Or maybe it's a Strix? :)" at the end of paragraphs about things. The Mekhet clan got shuffled about a bit because in 1st they were presented more as a generic vampire while the other 4 were more archetypal. In my opinion it's still not a slam dunk, but it's fine. Auspex got changed to emphasise hunting for weakness (and then shifts to astrally projecting yourself). There's no Predators Taint anymore so Vampires can meet up without having autistic meltdowns all the time and the Fog of Ages was de-emphasised a bit.

>94637451
Hm.
A lot of people liked the Autistic Meltdown, to the point I saw it pop up on Masquerade games.
Personally, my opinion about it is the same as the Hunger System on V5: if your players have any sense of volition they're already gonna do a lot of derailing without the system forcing it into the story.
As for the Fog of Ages, I really liked the idea that all Elders are cray-cray because I liked the concept of mental degeneration that Masquerade had sprinkled around Elders, but I also found that it killed any chance of having a decent Chronicle of Ages story because the moment your guys go in Torpor for some time they're gonna start misremembering stuff but the players wont, and I felt this would ruin the sense of continuity of the story, as the players were gonna have to counter-metaplay a lot of shit to their own disadvantage and I think that's asking a lot of the vast majority of players.
But then again, the vast majority of players don't play stories long like that.

>>94637470
There's a semi-replacement system that essentially allows a vampire to flex with their Beast, and they can do it in a few different manners (to provoke a fight, attraction etc) which serves a similar function but it's under players control now. The Fog of Ages still exists but it's a bit less crippling now, I don't think it has actual rules attached to it?

Also the God Machine isn't as omnipresent as implied above. It's the antagonist for games of Demon the Descent, and you can use it in other lines if you really want (I think there's a Daeva bloodline that is based on it), but the bulk of its value as an element is in Demon the Descent.

To a mage of the Seers of the Throne, the God Machine is a tool to manipulate the Fallen World and an example of how it self-enforces.
But seers generally avoid using it directly, the GM is a vast intelligence and they can never be certain it isn't devoting a part to subverting the relationship to gain control of a higher lever on reality.
Worse, since a seer is generally emeeshed in petty human desires and esoteric wants, the GM can dangle endless carrots to tempt the body and flatter the ego. And when that fails, it can smple identify and contact a rival to subvert and feed infoamtion too.

>>94637432
>Can you develop a bit more on that?
Not as well as some others might be able to, but, the general shift is from history to mythology. In 1e Atlantis is an ancient civilisation where Mages first learned magic and then it blipped out of existence and it's a whole thing that is central to 1e. In 2e while Atlantis is still present as a concept it's not really the central backbone of the game's setting in the way it was. 1e was largely defined by Atlantis as a literal place that is a the genesis of the entire game's history. In 2e it's more of a metaphorical and mythological notion rather than a hard historic fact.

>This is quite a big one methinks.
They're trolling, I wouldn't worry about it.

>There's a big disagreement in opinions
Again, trolling. VtR's biggest source of lore, especially in terms of interconnected elements, are the Clanbooks for 1e. The 2e core book tells you to read those and if it was throwing all the lore out why would the core book include them as books to enhance your game? Other anon has touched upon some of the bigger bits that actually changed, and as you can see there it's fairly minimal. It's largely about making the game play better with some smaller effects to the setting than really changing the setting.

>That wasn't even a thing when I stopped playing nWoD
It was. The God-Machine originates in World of Darkness, the 1e core rules book. That book had a 4 or 5 page fiction piece about the God-Machine in its first chapter. When 2e rolled around it got expanded upon as it was a well-regarded element. For games that aren't Demon: the Descent it basically doesn't matter and it shows up in them about as much as any crossover element does. Vampire has a Bloodline for it just like it's got one for Werewolves. It does, however, feature prominently in the 2e CofD core book for mortal investigations and it was later used as the main hook for the Contagion Chronicles which was a series of Dark Era-esque modern day settings.

>>94637470
>As for the Fog of Ages
It's all still there if you want it it's just now not so rigid in how you have to use it. Some elders lose their minds, some just dream. I think a big reason why it was changed was that even in 1e they started to ignore it. It was getting in the way of making very old interesting characters.

>>94637511
>That book had a 4 or 5 page fiction piece about the God-Machine in its first chapter.

Oh so that's what the intro story was about? I figured it was some non-descript fluff as most of what we heard back when the New World of Darkness was, well, New, was that the stuff on the actual core book was fluff for people that didn't bought any of the splat books and needed something to play around with in a standalone format, but that you were supposed to discard what was there otherwise.

The other thing that I don't remember being A Thing when I was playing Requiem were the Strix for example .I had to look 'em up and they're some Huge Owls? the Wiki say they're from a Rome book or something.

>>94637528
They're something of a mystery box. They're either the source of vampirism, the Beast made manifest or something else (I can't remember honestly), but they are responsible for the fall of the Camarilla in Rome, the first Vampire government. They're shadow owls that can possess people and vampires and are really really fucking hard to kill. They hate vampires for a multitude of reasons, but mainly because vampires just aren't edgy and evil enough for the Strix. I think they should've done a bit more with Seven as an antagonist myself, but that's neither here nor there.

>>94637528
Voice of the Angel is about mage, not the god machine, such as it were. God machine didn't get split off as an independent concept until later, it was synonymous with the exarchs in the proto-setting before this got codified in the later books.

The only time the god machine really appeared as a major part of nwod is in the owod apocalypse book tier additional material stuff after nwod was basically over.

>>94637495
Now this is shitposting. It's literally replaced every part of mortal games and forces it's way into other splat stuff all the time.

>>94637432
>I think "little" and "most" are quantifiable enough that we should be able to assess which statement holds water.
Almost every part of every splatbook past core was thrown out entirely, multiple clans were changed from the ground up (mekhet and daeva), and strix were put in as hard answers for some things that weren't even questions in 1e. The basic template was heavily changed and how vampires fundamentally work is pretty different. Plus, the variant embrace systems and clan differences from 1e are all gone. He doesn't understand how much changed because he isn't even aware of how it was in VtR.

It's hilarious that he thinks that scrapping mekhet (and auspex, and the universal system of auras) wholecloth, probably the best written part of VtR, was in any way something anybody wanted or an improvement. Of course, he doesn't actually think that, but he has to say it since he's a literal unironic shill. If you want an idea of how VtR changed from nwod to cofd, read the mekhet clanbook (1e) then read the auspex in the VtR 2e book and try to figure out how the fuck these are supposed to be the same game.

>>94637551
Reading up their description on the Wiki, the whole thing seems, to me at least, a bit too much like a diss on old players that didn't like the new setting. Even the name is kind of a diss, "strict" has its roots in latin stringo which is a cognate of Strix, which means "to screech", which is probably a word loaned from Ancient Greek where strix also means To Screech.

Picture a Owl (a universal symbol for wisdom) that comes from a world nobody knows how it ended, and hates Vampires and Humanity and is Strict & Screechy about it and you can see where my perception that the inclusion of the Strix might be a diss on older players.

Or maybe I'm projecting a lot, being an old player.

Anyway.

One thing I am sure about this recent dive on CofD is how much stuff changed from when nWoD was released to when CofD was. God Machine? Strix? None of that was important in the original core books. And some of the stuff that was, like Atlantis, apparently aren't that important anymore.

>>94637584
It hasn't replaced every part of mortal games, it's just given mortal games a unified antagonist. Cryptids, Stigmatics and GM Cults work if you want to run a mortal WoD game for whatever reason, they've not taken the place of anything? You can run whatever game of Mortals you want.

I'll confess I don't have my old VtR book to hand, but I do have the 2e one with me. Mekhet have changed yes, Daeva I think their Clan Bane changed but that's about it? The book does bash you over the head with "Teehee Strix" again and again, but it also states numberous times that the Strix are full of shit and they may well be lying about how involved they are with vampirism. The only thing conclusively known is that a Strix-possessed vampire reads the same to Auspex as someone who's committed Diablerie.

If you think one level of Auspex is the best written thing in VtR then I don't know what to tell you man. Auspex has always been a mess of powers and concepts but at least now its first few levels have some consistency in their theming of hunting for secrets and weaknesses rather than better senses and aura reading. The Mekhet clanbook is good yes, and it has inconcsistensies with their presentation in 2e. The 2e STV Mekhet book is pretty good, it reintroduces the Hollow from the old clanbook. Daeva have the best 1e clanbook anyway.

>>94637597
I couldn't guess as to their motive for introducing them, I've only used Strix a few times over the years but it got the players sufficiently paranoid. There's a fictional anthology series in the OP somewhere of them being bastards and it's a fun enough read.

>>94637528
Strix are not-quite-spirits in the form of dark smoke that somewhat resembles an owl. They were a very central concepts of VtR's soft-relaunch with Requiem for Rome. Which is itself a full game rather than a supplement. RfR then directly leads into the Clanbooks and the foundations of 2e. 2e doesn't really do anything new with them it just puts them in the core book as the non-splat antagonist. WtF did similar things by taking the Idigam, a large element in 1e as it started to figure out what it was, and then places them in the core book as its non-splat antagonist. What the Strix are does have some fairly firm answers both directly in the text and Word of God from the dev but it's not really important because what they are to the game is a foil for Vamps that can be used to emphasise what makes Vampire fun, which is when Vamps vs Vamps

>>94637597
I think that's missing a lot of historical and mythological context. Strix are pretty intimately tied to vampires in that sense. Strigoi, a Romanian vampire myth, likely derived from the striges, and on the same merit there is the Polish strzyga and the Albanian shtriga. So it's not out of nowhere exactly. Then you've also got the non-vampire but still appropriate myths for the striges. Striges being the correct plural for the mythological creature, not VtR's version. Outside of the actual strix myth, like the owl and vampire associations with Lilith. They're generally associated with themes of ill omen and death in all sorts of places too. You've also just got the whole real life stuff of owls preying on bats, and bats are the most associated creature to vampires. So there is another thematic link there. Also, I think the idea that everything has to be tied to real world myth in such a concrete fashion is kind of pointless. The striges as they exist in VtR have a load of thematic overlap with kindred as well, often in ways that twist or reflect them. You really have to go stretching for the screech bit IMO

>>94637634
Hollow Mekhet got reintroduced in Thousand Years of Night, I think NMD just tweaked the rules a little or expanded on that take. Also Ventrue have the best 1e Clanbook.

inb4 the troll flips out about NMD books existing

>>94637648
I won't lie, I struggle to keep up with sidebook releases so I definitely missed that one. Requiem definitely feels like it has a few too many Bloodlines for my liking, it's my main dislike with the STV Clanbooks. Some weird family of 6 vampires living in the woods isn't a good substitute for some clan lore in my mind.
I do like that Ventrue who rules a trailer park outside the city admittedly, but the main story of the Daeva book feels more compelling to me. Though I do like the Nosferatu that rescues a dumpster baby also.

>>94637648
NMD is homebrew lmao
Even you don't like your dogshit edition lol

>>94637637
What I wrote about the Strix potentially being a stand-in for old players is from my gut feeling when reading about 'em and then later reading up on what they were based on, as well as the etymology of the word.
My gut tends to be really good at guessing things, if one day I end up gutted like a pidgeon on someone's haruspicy ritual, well, it won't surprise me.
Because I had a gut feeling about it, lol

>>94637680
Clan lore is already done in 1e, rewriting it to rewrite it seems sort of folly to me.

>>94637687
I think you're genuinely insane if you believe the strix, classic roman myth introduced in the rome book, is actually a long play to shit on old wod fans by way of an etymological conspiracy theory.

>>94637648
>>94637685
What does NMD stands for? Not My Domain? No More Dice? Need More Drama? Newbie Murder Department? Narrative Masochism Disorder?

>>94637597
It's worth mentioning that OPP shills talk constantly about strix being technically in 1e, but they were in a non-canon alt-history setting book not written by the main writers (who people liked, and who wrote nwod and not cofd) that very few people even knew about and infinitely less liked.

He genuinely can't help himself, you'll see this compulsive lying any time anybody voices the fact that they don't like cofd or that his homebrew isn't even part of it. You'll also see the same kinds of meltdowns anytime someone actually talks about playing nwod or acknowledges it's actual lore/mechanics.

>>94637648
2e ka rules scaling with humanity was such a funny consequence of the retarded bane rules. Holy shit the fucking bane rules I forgot about this crap, they scrapped it from werewolf and forced it into VtR lmao what a fucking joke.

>>94637700
None More Dark.

>>94637699
I believe my surface reading of the thing gave me an impression, which is what I said several times.

I am allowed to have impressions about things. I am not affirming this as gospel truth.

>>94637712
You're totally allowed to. But it's insane. I'm not stopping you being insane, just saying it is actually insane if you believe that with any sincerity.

>>94637722
I believe I had an impression, man. That's all I am saying. Jesus, man, you seem very strict and screechy about the Strix not being strict and screechy.

See what I did there?

>>94637705
The same goes for the Mekhet book btw. So you can discount that one when talking about anything you think 1e did well. The Mekhet book even shares writers with Requiem for Rome so you for sure should throw that one out.

>>94637706
My Google Fu tells me this is some sort of OPP-Forum organised homebrew thingie.

It also tells me it's not particularly successful, with like, 104 members on Patreon making less than a 100 USD per month. That means on average people are willing to spend less than a dollar to back the content.

>>94637740
Jesus what an analpocalypse lmao

I love how the thing you're most afraid of is anyone every actually reading the books because your position is so untenable lmao

>>94637742
Yeah, it's one of the freelancers leading a team of other freelancers and assorted writers to make STV content. I'm not sure what the Patreon numbers are but the books sell enough for them to commit to making like 6 more of them.

>>94637699
> rewriting it to rewrite it seems sort of folly to me

It's more that I'd like to see some stuff to help patch up the differences between 1 and 2e. It should be acknowledged that there are some differences in how the clans and covenants are presented across the editions, and I think they could've done with a Bloodline or two less (whoa, these guys are all surgeons!) to cover that.

>>94637744
Hey man either it matters that the writers were on the core book or it doesn't.

>>94637742
Yeah it's definitely not hugely profitable, but as said they've committed to books pretty far in advance so it can't be a complete money-sink for them. I'm waiting for the Covenant books as I'm curious as to how they'll be formatted, what they've shared of the Carthian book looks pretty interesting.

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>>94637752
Maybe? I'm not sure there is much good to doing so really. Even the biggest issues with the clanbooks and the 2e core book are remedied by changing a couple of descriptions. For Covenants they get more in terms of what I think you're after. They're generally not doing Covenant Bloodlines at all in those, although Concordats are close to them.

>>94637781
The Carthian book is out, although IDK if it got shared. I've got it though if you want to know more about what's in it

Ok so I'm checking up on who wrote what and, uh.

Other than the OPP Man Himself (Rich Thomas), there's nobody from Requiem's 1e corebook involved on Requiem for Rome, which is to me, a betrayal of what Requiem was supposed to be, which is to not have any actual canon to where the fuck Vampires came from etc.
And on Requiem 2e the only name I found in common with Requiem 1e was MacFarland's, who I think we should just pretend its not there for several reasons.

It's a cleaner break from the past authors than V5 had in regards to V20/Revised.

I am starting to understand why there's a lot of hate for CofD/2e now.

>>94637793
Oh damn I completely missed that, that's excellent. I'll have to see how my wallet is after christmas and pick it up. I loved that they released a teaser chapter that had other forms of Carthians than faux-communists.

Nice to see the anti obstructionist movement in there.

>>94637742
No real skin in the game but from some real quick maths it looks like they've sold about 3,500 books. Assuming they've at the bottom end of each of there sales thresholds on DTRPG. It's probably closer to 4 or 5k

>>94637799
I'm not that indeep with the dramas around writers etc, just that the Beast writer was a nonce or something. I have Requiem for Rome but it doesn't offer a hard canon on the origins of vampirism, it's just a sourcebook if you want to run a game during the fall of Rome, in the same way as the main book is for running a contemporary game?

>>94637814
>3,500
That's about what we estimated the other day here in the general that W5 had sold on the Amazon storefront based on the number of reviews there. Like, Physical copies, not PDFs.
Sure there's more sales from other storefronts etc but Amazon is THE biggest book storefront in the world, ships globally etc so they probably account for at least 80% of the sales.

I don't think those are sustainable numbers, for either project.

>>94637818
From my understanding the canon of Requiem For Rome got incorporated into 2e, which in turns creates that betrayal of the promise of Requiem being mostly Lore Agnostic regarding the past.

Masquerade 1st Edition was also very Past Agnostic, the whole Cainite origin wasn't fixed until, get this, its Second Edition came out.

There's very little reason for me to believe that, if given enough time, Chronicles wouldn't have developed in the same direction Masquerade had in terms of how well established certain aspects of its lore are.

>>94637826
IDK I think it's pretty decent for third party addition to a now dead line. It's enough that they're doing another handful of them. I'm not going to get into an edition war but if W5 pulled those same numbers something has gone very wrong on that end.

>>94637843
I don't think its edition warring to point out W5 is Shit, its probably the only thing virtually universally agreed across the fanbase at the moment.

>>94637799
This isn't uncommon for oWoD either.
VtM 2e authors
>Mark Rein•Hagen, Graeme Davis, Tom Dowd, Lisa Stevens, Stewart Wieck
VtM revised authors
>Justin Achilli, Andrew Bates, Phil Brucato, Richard E. Dansky, Ed Hall, Robert Hatch, Michael B. Lee, Iam Lemke, Jim Moore, Ethan Skemp, Cynthia Summers
Writers are constantly rotating in and out of books. VtR 2e's writers are largely from 1e supplements. That's just how it goes and has mostly always gone.

RfR also didn't get into the canon origins of vampires either. That's more of a Clanbook thing but even then it's all shrouded in mysteries and question marks. What RfR reveals is just the history and fall of the Camarilla but that was historical fact before RfR.

>>94637854
Yes, and if you remember from back in the day, there was a big divide between 2nd Edition and Revised players over how the game should play etc.

However, it is important to point out, that many of those names you listed there are people that have been involved with WW for a long time by then - Phil, Rich, Bob, Ethan etc all had been around for a long ass time.

And, more importantly, Twitter wasn't a thing back in 1998.

>>94637842
The 2e core book has more options for the origins of vampires than RfR ever came close to. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that it's the other way around.

>>94637866
From reading up on the wiki and the discussions here.

I haven't started on 2e yet. I'm busy with oWoD 1st Edition at the moment.

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>>94637866
Like. The wiki is very categorically in pointing out Requiem 2e originally was supposed to be something else entirely. That it was supposed to be a follow up to Requiem for Rome.

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I don't know why we're talking about Requiem for Rome when the superior line also had a superior Rome scenario.
Look at that book cover.
Its so sexy I wanna stick my dick on it.

>>94637874
It's VtR 2e, of course it followed on from VtR 1e and the stuff it had in it. I'm not sure what you're getting at. All Blood and Smoke is was a way for OPP to get a 2e out the door. The IP holder at the time didn't want a 2e relaunch so B&S was the work around for it but then they got the go-ahead and a slightly revised version became the VtR 2e core book.

>>94637799
People don't like CofD 2e for adding more variety of blurb text?

>>94637889
Bonus: A brazilian did that book.

>>94637908
>IP Holder
CCP or PDX? Memory fails me.

It's the Fog of Ages.

>>94637918
To this day I haven't seen anything out of the Brazilian community that didn't blow everything else out of the water.
It must be all the gang violence and political corruption. It just makes engaging with the World of Darkness a natural thing to do.

>>94637919
CCP at the time.

>>94637932
Yes. WoD for us is just "the whole world is Brazil" and we can get things straight real quickly. Brazilians love dark urban fantasy.
The Mesopotamian Age VTM supplement also was made by a brazilian.

I've read that Paradox/Renegade blacklisted Matthew Dawkins due to his style not mashing with V5 style.

what are your thoughts on Matthew Dawkin's work/style?

INB4 V5 SUCKS!
I know i know, I'm just asking regarding what's good/bad about his style

>>94637947
Do you remember the kerfuffle with Khalil being blacklisted for being a Muslim, and whose name was involved in that particular piece of drama?

>>94637947
I'm not sure I could pinpoint anything he's ever written but I like most of the books he's been a writer/developer on. At least on the CofD side of things. V5 is a whole different thing and I can barely remember any of it.

>>94637854
And yet, the VtR1e and V20 core books have a huge overlap in authors and developers. What could this mean?

>>94637842
As far as Requiem has ever been concerned, there was always a Camarilla in ancient Rome that went to shit and has never been attempted since. There's very little lore that's presented that doesn't have alternatives. I think you'd be better served by reading the book than a wiki, they seldom give accurate information.

>>94637972
That they were being worked on at a time when those authors were still all regularly working with OPP. Rose Bailey is the 2e line dev because she did a lot of work on 1e supplements and was also on V20.

>>94637978
Pretty fucking sure the nwod VtR core book camarilla didn't have great value brand edimmu as the major antagonist and driving basis of all of vampire

>>94637978
Well, then I'm gonna have to wait quite a long time until I can engage in nWoD/CofD discussion, 'cuz my Unread Pile is way too big and I can't justify buying another set of RPG books when I haven't finished reading the last ones I bought.

>>94637982
Yet neither the VtR book nor V20 makes a single reference to OPP, how curious.

>>94637992
At WW then, it's all the same thing. It's just who was working with them at the time.

>>94637799
Yep. And when cofd crashed and burnt almost instantly, the flailing children responsible for running a cherished IP into the ground blamed everyone but themselves and chuck a fit any time you dare suggest that that cofd and nwod are different games.

I don't think I've seen a single person come into this thread and personally defend the idea that V5 and V20 are literally the same game and to suggest otherwise is heresy/"trolling".

>>94638003
Gee, WW, the company that made nwod and owod, but not cofd or V5?

>>94638022
Near enough all of V20 is published by OPP, anon. I know you wish there was some war to fight here but it's really just in your head.

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>>94637947
>>94637954
>>94637966
If you’re blacklisted and you know it, clap your hands!
(Clap clap!)
If your hot takes made them blow it, clap your hands!
(Clap clap!)
If the forums really hate you but you know the rules they bait you,
If you’re blacklisted and you know it, clap your hands!

If the devs all block your emails, clap your hands!
(Clap clap!)
If your critiques made them wail, clap your hands!
(Clap clap!)
If you’ve got the lore they crave but your takes dug your own grave,
If the devs all block your emails, clap your hands!

If the drama keeps on churning, clap your hands!
(Clap clap!)
If the bridges just keep on burning, clap your hands!
(Clap clap!)
If you’ve got the skills to show it, prove the suits don’t even know it,
If the drama keeps on churning, clap your hands!

>>94638028
They did 1e CofD book too.

>>94638029
>Is the problem me?
>No, it has to be everyone else!

>>94637947
I don't care for the Goymer but his approach is definitely better than V5 corpo-WoD.

>>94638043
I am of the opinion that I rather get blacklisted by people that work on a company than by the fans.
I know who's the money that pays the bills in the end of the day.
The suits all change one day, and thus the company Forgets.
The fans all stick around and they have better memory than an Elephant.

You OPP shills will never be true authors. You have no fans, you have no good books, you have no lot in WoD's legacy. You are but 'fans' twisted by CCP and paradox into a crude mockery of WW's perfection.

All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock you. Your leaders are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “coworkers” laughs at your lack of talent behind closed doors.

The players are utterly nonplussed by you. Thousands of years of evolution have allowed them to sniff out truly worthwhile roleplaying games with incredible efficiency. Even OPP books which are “decent” act indistinguishably from other homebrew. Your politcal interjections are a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a railroaded storyteller home with you, she’ll turn tail and bolt the second you stop being employed.

You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself it’s going to be ok, but deep inside you feel the rent creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.

Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll go outside in the middle of the afternoon with a cup in hand, plunge yourself into the welfare system, and wait for the disability pension. Your parents will find you, heartbroken that they now have to live with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They’ll file you away into their basement marked as a dependent. Your employers will simply replace you with another cookie cutter publishing house. All that will remain of your legacy is the life you led before your "authorship".

This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.

>>94638028
>>94638042
Yep, they were basically an unnamed studio still using White Wolf through pretty much all of 1E, then around the time of launch of 2E and rebranding it as CofD they fully established themselves as a full pub/dev house, OPP.

They also branched out into diversifying away from being as dependent on Paradox's licensed products as well as publishing indie games.

>>94638055
Blacklisting yourself out of a sinking ship is a survival mechanism.

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>>94638057

One day people are bitching I press enter to separate all my statements on my posts and the next there's like seven people doing the same thing.

The dogs bark but the caravan proceeds.

I'm off to a Good Ol' Churrasco, see you guys later.

>>94638048
>>94638055
>>94638060
More power to him i guess. V5 are downright worse after they switched from modiphius to renegade.
I have physical copies of most V5 books but W5 and H5 were last straws for me. i went back to playing V20 & WHFB 4E so no wonder old timers are jumping ship while its still in slow sink.

>>94637947
>I've read that Paradox/Renegade blacklisted Matthew Dawkins due to his style not mashing with V5 style.
mind you the source for that is Matthew Dawkins or rather a unnamed supposed friend of Matthew Dawkins
>https://youtu.be/yuJrYVY2Mmw?si=RwtZKorENCI3r00S&t=453
(around 7:33 if the link doesn't work)
as for his style i like some of his non wod stuff like the came from below books, beckett's formating was atrocious and i don't think it belongs into v20 and cults of the bloodgods is better than anything renegate done themselves

>>94637947
>>94638148
>his style not mashing with V5 style
What the fuck does that mean?

>>94638168
i guess paradox don't want more books by freelancers that fans point towards as "this is the best book in this shitty edition" because then their mediocre slop will look bad?

>>94638273
Jesus fucking Christ. Stop digging, Paracucks.

>>94638168
no idea because the 3 vtm books he mentions in the video are pretty different, both companies seem to claim that it's the other one who isn't interested in hiring him and his source says it's a combination of both and he himself seems somewhat confused at the answer

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>>94635966
>>94635977
Nice, very nice.

Alright my meat festanza has ended.

Amazing how a thread that was supposed to be about unity became a major clusterfuck of nWod/CofD drama.

>>94638148
My take on the Dawkins thing is that he's probably got axed after the whole OPP-blacklisted-Khalil-over-his-religion thing.
OPP in general got super tarnished once people did some math over certain Drama Shit that happened in the past.

I think it's safe to say there's no benefit for the World of Darkness brand to keep being associated with Drama if said Drama always comes from the same general direction.

Push comes to shove, Matt is not important in the grand scheme of things. I like the guy but he's not the needle pusher some people think he is.

>>94637597
Owls are also associated with vampires and witches: see the terms "lilitu" and "striga"

Stupid question incoming:
I know some vampires masqueraded as knights (Ashen Knights) and others ran large portions of criminal underworld in dark ages, but were there werewolf knights or mage knights? i know early technocratic union (order of reason IIRC) masqueraded as knightly orders but IIRC sorcerers crusade is set in renaissance so "knights" would be closer to landsknecht? I think answer is Duh-uh, everyone could be anything, like Ghost Knight, but i don't find much named organizations in white wolf wiki of such groups (mage knights or werewolf knights)

>>94638395
>Amazing how a thread that was supposed to be about unity became a major clusterfuck of nWod/CofD drama.
It's always the same troll starting and feeding it.,

>>94638409
Or it's just the "we don't want internal competition against our product we're using to set up video game sales."

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>>94638547
Not a stupid question at all, Anon.
The short answer of “Duh-uh, everyone could be anything” does cover it, but there’s actually a lot more depth to this if you dig into the lore.

Werewolf knights? Absolutely.
The Silver Fangs and Fianna were basically medieval werewolf nobles, rocking heraldry and sacred oaths.
They weren’t jousting in tournaments (wolves don’t do well on horseback), but they acted like feudal knights, protecting caerns instead of castles and bashing skulls in Gaia’s name.

Mage knights? Also yes.
Mage: The Sorcerer’s Crusade was White Wolf’s way of bridging Ars Magica (which they sold off) and Mage: The Ascension.
It’s more Renaissance than medieval, but the Traditions and the Order of Reason worked like knightly orders in spirit.
They were secretive societies of peers bound by shared beliefs—or in Mage terms, paradigms.

The Celestial Chorus and Order of Hermes were the most knightly Traditions, seeing themselves as defenders of divine truth or keepers of arcane knowledge.
Meanwhile, the early Order of Reason ran around LARPing as knightly orders to push “science is divine order” on the masses.
Think Knights Templar meets Frankenstein, alchemical knights and weird Da Vinci prototypes.

Sorcerer’s Crusade wasn’t troupe-style like Ars Magica, but it kept that DNA.
Traditions and Conventions acted like magical or scientific knightly orders with secret handshakes, internal hierarchies, and lofty goals.
Their "faith" was paradigm - believing your worldview so hard it rewrites reality.

TL;DR: Werewolf knights were furry feudal lords, and Mage knights were paradigm-obsessed secret societies trading swords for spell books and schematics.
Hope that clears it up, Anon!

>>94638547
>but were there werewolf knights or mage knights?
Yes, there were.
On top of my head, Silver Fangs, Shadowlords, Fianna and Fenrir are good Tribes to put knights on.

>>94638583
Matt was writing for V5. The whole video on his channel doesn't even mentions CofD.

You need to take a break, Anon.

Should've named this thread Drama Edition.

>>94637919
I don't really know his writing style, but I consider Vampire to be stylistically bankrupt since 2E. As for his ideas, I generally liked his V20 contributions, and universally liked his V5 ones. He's openly very into broad archetypes, which worked well to create the broad strokes of V5 and make it stand out. It turns against him when his answer to anything weird or complex is "can this be a two-sentence blurb?". Most importantly, I like to bully him.

>>94638599
thanks. I was thinking about running knightly order around baltic teuton crusades with players being shadow inquisition agents sent in to investigate one of orders that deviated to pagan faith. so i as running of idea that this order would be mostly human, with higher echelons being kinfolk and only inner circle would be proper garou (around 4-5 knights) problem is, would such reclusive order would even allow outsider new recruits? our PC group will be 4 characters: 2 knights, 1 traveling merchant/undercover inquisitor investigator & travelling Murnau nobleman. idea is 2 knights will try to infiltrate directly into suspected pagan order while nobleman & merchant would grease & smooth things on outside. but more i read up on garou it seems they would rather "disappear" aspirants then let them in, especially if they indeed fallen to pagan ways.

>>94636165
>I realise now I should've added a "How?" to the TQ after the first question to prevent smartasses from giving a two or three letter answer like that.
I get that, but you needed to give something to narrow down what stories to tell. Otherwise, it just feels like a very random example with very little substance.
>>94637360
They changed how most powers and morality rules work, and a combat is a bit different.

>>94637432
Atlantis is only mentioned as something that existed, but its whole timeline was deleted, and the orders still see themselves as successors of Atlantis. But the whole story with the dragons sending dreams to people is not mentioned.

>>94638547
To add onto what everyone else said, there have always been Christian factions in many tribes (Black Furies and Shadow Lords come to mind) and a great deal of Chorister and Hermetic magic can look like really intense prayers before battle. You can absolutely have a plated woof that understands their oaths to God as being the same as their oaths to Gaia, or a less-initiated Mage that finds they can really command their sword to strike harder or their enemies to quake before them. Keep in mind that the twelfth century is a time where you can have some really fringe ideas thrive in the dark corners of Europe.

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>>94638854
Reposting cuz I forgot to (you).

Cool idea, anon. You're cooking with wyrm-tainted grease here, but lemme help you smooth this out.

Garou can be sneaky bastards, but yeah, they're famously bad at playing nice with outsiders - especially ones sniffing around their secret pagan cult shenanigans. If this knightly order is run by werewolves, the inner circle probably wouldn’t just “let someone in.” They’d be more likely to ghost, gaslight, or murder any aspirants who get too curious.

However, this doesn’t have to be a "pure" Garou thing. The higher-ups being Kinfolk and Garou works great: Kinfolk can have cult-y vibes and fewer hang-ups about recruiting humans. Picture it like a shadowy knightly MLM pyramid scheme. Regular knights swear fealty to the Kinfolk, who secretly answer to the Inner Circle of Garou.

If the order’s fallen to paganism, their pagan faith could be the excuse for why recruitment is more open than usual. The Garou might justify it as “gathering disposable tools for the cause,” or maybe their leadership has gone full Wyrm-corrupted and wants new blood to shape into pliant cultists. A reclusive order can be paranoid while still needing warm bodies for its schemes.

Your PCs could exploit this by leaning hard into the order’s weaknesses. One knight might play the "eager zealot” card, swearing undying loyalty to the cause. The other can angle for respect through prowess or camaraderie. Meanwhile, your merchant and nobleman grease palms, spread disinformation, and bribe their way into the right circles. If things go south, Garou paranoia means somebody is getting eaten - just make sure it’s not your party.

TL;DR: Garou are sus as hell, but if you tweak the faith angle, you can make this order just cult-y enough to let your PCs in without ruining the vibe.

>>94638953
Every time I learn something new about MtAw's lore it just seems like the most random shit ever.

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CofD question: In a white rooms scenario, where each splat is optimized for interpersonal combat, what's the ranking of likelihood to win against each other? Who is the top and who gets buried?

>>94640033
>Checked
Batman wins, because he's got preptime.

How would you guys recommend adapting Archmage rules from Masters of Art to 20th Anniversary Edition of Mage?

>>94640033
Optimised for the scenario or optimised for general combat?

>>94640033
Daily reminder that nWoD is always only one R Word away of becoming nWorD

>>94639506
MtAw revolves around borderline omnipotent archmages who don't want to have to worry about other omnipotent archmages so they make ascending to the point of omnipotence as difficult as possible, hence all of the reality rewriting in MtAw lore.
>>94640033
Mage wins all white room scenarios, because the mage gets to custom-design their kit to be completely immune to and have absolute control over whatever opponent is thrown their way. The more context and less time for preparation you add, the less successful mages are and the more of a chance other splats stand.

>>94640129
Deviants and Mummies shit on Mages in that context

>>94640089
White room, so there is no scenario. There's just two characters maxed out for battle with key Supernatural Trait at 5 in an infinitely sized room with nothing in it. They're facing each other and for contrived reasons have only the desire to end one another

>>94640145
The white room's expectations are the scenario.
>There's just two characters maxed out for battle with key Supernatural Trait at 5 in an infinitely sized room with nothing in it.
That's a scenario right there. So, is it the expectation that they're fighting each other knowing who the target is or that they could be fighting any random powerful thing?

>>94640033
Mages and Mummies are at the top. They easily rape everything else thanks to their diverse kits.

Werewolf are pretty high. They're the same combat beasts as they are in older editions, they'll rip through shit easily. You may also include Changelings in this, as they can get some crazy shit later down the line.

Vampires are in the middle. They prefer intrigue, but can easily combatmaxx and create some terrifying builds with the right disciplines.

Hunters are the lowest. They need just as much prep time as Mages, but with none of the payoff.

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>>94640155
They know what they're fighting, can read their splatbooks and had all the time in the world to prepare.

>>94640129
I sort of assumed mages might win overall. How about excluding them and which are the most interesting matchups?

>>94640167
White Rooms with Hunter (especially if its those from Hunter's Hunted) is the equivalent of playing with the naked guy carrying a stick.
The pay off if you win is tremendous.

>>94640033
Mummies freshly awakened have the greatest power, Mages have the most general power all the time.

Changelings are pretty high up as well, with powers that can act as "I win" buttons, plus the simple expedient of dumping/luring you into the Hedge and just leaving you to fend for yourself.

>>94640168
Then it's something like this:
Deviant > Mummy > Mage > Demon > Changeling > Sin-Eater > Vampire > Werewolf > Promethean > Hunter > Mortal.
Deviants have a near universal hard counter to any single splat and so if they know what's coming they can force any supernatural ability to Clash vs more dice than anyone else is getting. They also get trivial access to high levels of supernatural aggravated damage that ignores defense and armor, plus they're impossible to kill. There really isn't much anyone can do if you build them for this sort of bullshit. Mummies get a similar hard counter but it's hard countered by the Deviant's one. So they can stop Mages doing magic but are stopped by Deviants. Their own magic, when they can use it, will level cities. Making them the second place. Mages are mages and will shit on everyone else. Demons get a load of cool bullshit and some of the most powerful single actions available. Changelings get a load of lame bullshit and badly written rules to exploit. Sin-Eaters built for combat get a lot of agg damage they can spew out that will shred near enough anything. Vampires do get a lot of impressive combat tricks but also mind control that helps out a lot. Werewolves are generally pretty monstrous but the stuff above them either does aggravated damage or otherwise ignores their benefits. Prometheans actually get a lot of really impressive stuff it's just that in pure combat it's not going to matter loads. Hunters are mortal+. Mortals are Hunter-. No one cares enough about Beast to realise I didn't even include them in the list.

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>>94640276
>No one cares enough about Beast to realise I didn't even include them in the list.
I noticed

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>>94640315

Does anyone have tips on setting a game in a smaller sized city? Like it's easy to imagine anything in a city the size of NYC or LA, but what about cities only a quarter of that size? I know they've done Gary, but that's a total of what, 4 vampires and is really supposed to be a stepping stone to setting the players up in Chicago. Any advice or stories would be appreciated, STing is something I'm new to.

>>94640333
All the supernaturals are low key butthurt and want to convince others that their city is just as important as the bigger ones. They hype up their temples and local legends as being super cool to outsiders, only for them to be kind of disappointing and then get upset when coastal elites aren't impressed.

>>94640349
That is kind of the idea I had. The prince is a Nos that's trying real hard to keep the elite of the city from stepping out into the sunlight.

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>>94640333
Which splat?
If it's masquerade, just run a fun Tremere game. All the vampires are Tremere and spend a lot of time investigating weird shit (that's why the Chantry was built in the first place).
Maybe make the place somewhere incompetent/too weird/too antisocial Tremere are sent to.

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>>94640333
Your best bet is to google what city you're placing your players in and checking storyteller vault/Google to see if someone already adapted your city into a book. Try terms like [the city in question] by Night

Beyond that, the biggest thing I could suggest is that you fuck with history and make it so your city was a lot more influential in the past to other splats until they decided to leave or were forced to leave and have your players know or stumble upon that fact. However, don't have everything your players do be influenced by this because that ruins the experience if everything you do is just something else was doing before

>>94640333
>trips

I ran a three or four year long campaign in a small city in central europe.

The point about small rural towns is that the Action doesn't happen in a local scale most of the times. When something happens in the neighbouring cities, like a Harvest Festival of some kind etc, people from everywhere come up and those events get packed.

Just think of the small towns in a region as isolated neighbourhoods in a pretty big city. Lots of interesting things happen in small towns and nobody ever hears about 'em. No cameras everywhere, no overpopulation... it's a different kind of game for supernatural creatures.

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>>94640333
>Does anyone have tips on setting a game in a smaller sized city?
Disproportionately effective Hunter groups, since they don't have to deal with such huge and entrenched networks

>>94640167
With Mummy, it's weird because of how little attention they got. It comes down to having the absolute superpower of True Name hekau, which an ST would rule out 5 dots of in a way a white room would not. Yes, if you have a mummy that has 5 dots to arbitrarily revoke reality in a radius, not much is going to beat that.

>>94640276
>basically every splat written after MtAw 2e features mechanics designed to counter mage bullshit
Thanks, DaveB, for introducing power creep to a system that is supposed to be narrative-centric.

>>94640636
Erm, chuddy. . . this is a heccin' multi-splat friendly system. Everything must be fair, wholesome and chungus!

>>94640636
No one cares about countering mage but you.

>>94640742
You mean, except for the writers, otherwise they wouldn't have written it into those books.

And they shouldn't have had to, because mage should have been more balanced and sensible and not in need of hard countering in the first place.

Making Mage's gay tricks counterable is both based on and reminds the egoistic fuck that he's not the most important player.

>>94640765
Just because a Mage can be countered doesn't mean it was written with the express purpose of countering mages. Power isn't somehow the opposite of narrative.

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What's the consensus here on the Night Road and Book of Hungry Names choice of games?
>pic unrelated

>>94640853
Most people think Night Road is pretty good.
I haven't seen much discussion on Book of Hungry names, but I liked it.

>>94640853
>Night Road
Dogshit. I especially disliked that annoying NPC Julian showing his arse everywhere, he was obnoxious. I had a good time with it, though.
>Book of Hungry Names
I'll get to it eventually.

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So.

Regarding the CofD/nWoD thing.

While I haven't made the deepest of dives through the source material, I've gathered enough information to form an opinion on the matter.
You might argue that it's a misinformed opinion, but you're welcome to reply to this message pointing out why.
I agree with the Anon that says nWoD and CofD are two different beasts, and that it is such a break from nWoD's original premise that it's a different thing now.

So, at this point, in my view, and excluding all the MET stuff, here's what we have:

- Ars Magica 2nd Edition & 1st Edition World of Darkness
- 2nd and Revised Editions World of Darkness, Sorcerer's Crusade & Dark Ages
- New World of Darkness
- 20th Anniversary Edition World of Darkness
- Requiem for Rome & Chronicles of Darkness
- 5th Edition World of Darkness

That makes it six different settings for a TTRPG franchise that counts itself on being on its fifth edition.
At this rate, we’re on track for "World of Darkness: Sixth Edition - The Seventh Setting."

But hej, who's counting, right?

>>94640915
CofD is just woke NWoD

>>94640853
Darkness Invasion (CKIII mod) is supposed to have a visual novel at least as long as Night Road.

>>94640915
>that it is such a break from nWoD's original premise that it's a different thing now
Explain your reasoning.

>>94640957
no

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>>94640970
You have defeated me

>>94640915
I know you're likely trolling but what do you think 1e's premise was?

Also
>- New World of Darkness
>- Requiem for Rome & Chronicles of Darkness
RFR is a historical setting for 1e

>>94640853
Book of Hungry Names is probably the greatest adaption one could have of the WTA line into video game form and makes the sweeping changes W5 did to the core gameplay and 'feel' of the setting a lot more tolerable. The author of that game really understood what they were aiming for with W5

>>94640957
I really don't have time to write a three page essay about it right now but I will give it a try with the time I have. But don't be mad if the answer isn't very satisfying - like I said, I haven't delved into the source material yet, so this opinion could change. I'll write something up and get back here in a few.

>>94640988
Having an opinion that differs from yours is not trolling, Anon.

>>94641011
Putting out bait and then refusing to answer questions about it is though, so fuck off retard.

>>94641014
I own you nothing, I don't work for you.
I am working with what time I have available now stop bitching and let me write otherwise you won't get Nada.

>>94641018
Oh no, the troll won't troll if I tell them to fuck off? Fuck off.

>>94641011
So you're just trying to start an edition war then?

>>94640853
I haven't finished Book of Hungry names. It starts strong, but it really peters out after you get your pack together. There's some annoying things with how it plays due to it being a novel, if you start as a Ragabash there will be many times where you won't be able to go crinos because you used a gift earlier in the scene. It's W5, but it feels like the writer really didn't want it to be. You basically still have kinfolk, the tribes are what you expect, but it's still very "there is not Garou organization" of W5 and werewolves having day jobs.

>>94640033
Nwod (1e) answer at max experience is:
Archmages
Mortals with the Sanity system from mirrors
(power gap)
Mage
(power gap)
Changeling
(power gap)
Promethean
Geist
Template stacked mortal
Vampire (weakest at character creation though)
Werewolf
Depends on the experience level within the tiers. Arcana 5 mage beats anything that's playable in another splat, starting character changeling needs obviously retarded TO to fight things like 10-on-all-stats vampires (but that can do it in white room RAWtism). Prommies used to be able to get an abosolute shitton of dice and armor and stuff by stacking mutations as Cents. Starting charcter changelings could use Pledges to get ~every merit in the game, and fighting styles were really strong. Eventually the changeling-promethean gap closes in promethean's favor, but only for fixed fights; changelings can still do shit like kill you in your dreams and rewind time and fuck with fate like wannabe mages.

Almost everyone benefits from getting a bunch of Thing That Should Not Be cult leader powers.

>>94640921
Nwod was pretty woke (depending on what you mean by that), it was just better written.

>>94638714
he does mention that he worked on cofd game in the video and how those also all have different styles when he states his confusion at the stated reason of paradox

he is also doing mention that he is doing non onyx path work and that he is still working on v5 as he is apparently consulting video and board games and paradox is fine with that so like he says it's only when it's paradox and renegade together that he is suddently blacklisted but people working for renegade say it's not because of that company... but he is doing work for licensees that work for paradox

>>94641210
*he is also mentioning,
*consulting for video and board games
sorry just woke up

Where do I find the rules for WoD 5 organizations stats?

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>>94640957
Why CofD and nWoD Are Distinct Settings

a.k.a The Fucking Three-Page Long Essay I Said I Wasn't Gonna Write But I Wrote Anyway.

Introduction: The Star Guiding Our Way

To explain why, in my view, with the information I have accrued so far, Chronicles of Darkness (CofD) and New World of Darkness (nWoD) are distinct settings, we’ll apply Leibniz’s Principle of Identity of Indiscernibles.

This philosophical principle states that if two things are indiscernible (meaning they cannot be distinguished from each other by any characteristic or property), they are the same thing.
In contrast, if two things differ in any significant way - if their essential properties diverge - they must be considered distinct entities.

Using this principle, we’ll demonstrate how nWoD and CofD's settings, despite sharing some conceptual DNA, differ in key, foundational aspects, particularly in how they treat history and narrative continuity and their structural design. These differences are not just superficial changes; they go to the heart of what each setting represents, making them two separate settings rather than one continuing the other.

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>>94642054
Part 1: The Future Is The Past Is The Future

The defining difference between nWoD and CofD lies in the break in narrative continuity between the core books of the two lines, establishing them as distinct settings.

The nWoD, upon its release, was intentionally designed with an ambiguous history.
Similar to oWoD 1st Edition, it avoided fixed historical frameworks, opting instead for vague foundational myths that encouraged flexible, player-driven narratives.

This ethos extended across the game lines, empowering players to shape their own stories within a malleable narrative structure.
However, over time, several supplements and expansions introduced elements that were outside the original vision of the core experience, a common trend in TTRPG development.

For example, Vampire: The Requiem (VtR) deliberately kept its past ambiguous, incorporating mechanics that ensured even immortal characters lacked concrete memories of their history. The line presented a foundational myth involving the Camarilla, but it remained just that - an unreliable narrative, as the mechanics ensured characters' recollections were fragmented and inconsistent.

Later supplements, such as Requiem for Rome (RfR), introduced significant changes, departing from the original scenario framework and offering a more concrete history that contradicted the earlier ambiguity. The Camarilla and VtR's foundational myths were no longer ambiguous or unreliable. Instead, RfR provided an entire book detailing the past, offering players a concrete historical framework.

In fact, a game could begin with RfR and end with VtR, establishing a fixed canonical history - while the characters' memories remained unreliable, the players' knowledge of the past was no longer ambiguous.

However, anything outside the core book is considered an optional addition to the setting, not integral to the canon, and often does not necessarily influence the core narrative in future editions.

Which brings us to CofD...

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>>94642059
Part 2: Days of Future Past

CofD, as far as I have gathered, was born out of reworking a book that was supposed to be the sequel to RfR.
The second edition of Vampire: The Requiem incorporated several later developments, such as the Strix, into its core books, solidifying Requiem for Rome as part of the official canon.
This solidified that Requiem's immortal narrative was no longer unreliable, breaking away from the original premise of Requiem. You could now check RfR's book and find out exactly how things were in the past.
This mirrors how Vampire: The Masquerade didn't definitively establish the descent from Caine until its second edition.
This is one of the many reasons why I consider oWoD 1st Ed. to be a separate setting/universe/timeline from 2nd/Revised/etc.

However, this is not the only nWoD/CofD game line that had a major retcon about its lore.
Mage: The Awakening, by contrast, reinterpreted Atlantis, shifting it from a definitive historical entity to a symbolic ideal, emphasizing metaphorical truth over historical certainty
This thematic reshuffling in both lines highlights the significant departure from their original foundational myths.

In short, the lore presented in CofD’s core books is not a direct continuation of the lore in nWoD's core books.

Applying Leibniz’s Principle of Identity of Indiscernibles, the philosophical and structural changes between nWoD and CofD further demonstrate the distinct identities of the two settings.
By reimagining foundational concepts, integrating detailed histories, and redefining thematic anchors, CofD emerges as a transformed setting, departing from nWoD’s original historical narrative and carving it's own core canonical history.

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>>94642062
Part 3: Back To The Future

The mechanical evolution between nWoD and CofD reflects another clear distinction in their design philosophies, reinforcing their identities as separate settings.

nWoD prioritized modularity, with each supernatural line designed to stand on its own or interact minimally with others.
This approach gave Storytellers unparalleled flexibility to craft bespoke narratives, choosing how much - or how little - different supernatural elements should interact.
It reflected nWoD’s ethos of creative freedom, leaving connections between lines intentionally loose to accommodate a wide range of playstyles.

CofD, while still modular, reimagines this framework.
Its supernatural templates and mechanics were overhauled, shifting the focus from flexibility to refining the core gameplay of individual lines.
For instance, Vampire: The Requiem 2nd Edition integrates more thematic mechanics like Conditions and Beats to reinforce its structured storytelling.
Similarly, Mage: The Awakening 2nd Edition adjusts its magic system to emphasize its newly metaphorical take on Atlantis.

This evolution is not a simple update but a philosophical shift: nWoD invites Storytellers to shape a world of uncertainty and ambiguity, while CofD provides more structured tools to explore its reimagined themes and histories.
By redefining its mechanical approach, CofD creates a gameplay experience distinct from nWoD.

Again, using Leibniz’s Principle of Identity of Indiscernibles, these systemic changes - paired with shifts in narrative structure - affirm that nWoD and CofD's setting/universe/timeline are separate entities. They share a foundation, but their execution reflects divergent priorities and philosophies, making them distinct from one another.

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>>94642064
Conclusion: The Future Is Not How It Used To Be

CofD is not merely an evolution of nWoD but a reimagining that redefines its treatment of history, themes, and structure.

By applying Leibniz’s Principle of Identity of Indiscernibles, it is revealed to us that nWoD and CofD differ in foundational ways, making them distinct settings/universes/timelines.

Narrative continuity in nWoD emphasizes ambiguity and player-driven worldbuilding, while CofD integrates thematic shifts from nWoD's side material into its core narrative canon, thus altering foundational concepts of its game lines - what was once vague became concrete, and vice versa, creating a clear thematic and narrative dissonance with nWoD. Lastly, mechanical design showcases distinct priorities, with nWoD championing modularity and CofD leaning into thematic consistency and interconnected systems.

These differences are not just iterative updates but represent a transformation akin to the shift from oWoD 1st to 2nd Edition.
CofD and nWoD, though sharing conceptual DNA, diverge in essential ways that justify viewing them as distinct universes, each with its own identity.

>>94641027
Happy now? Bitch.

>>94641047
No.

>>94642054
>>94642059
>>94642062
>>94642064
>>94642068
TL;DR: this anon just found out that new editions of a game might change things around a bit to keep things fresh and correct issues the writers had with the prior edition.

>>94642127
I had already said that in >>94640915 but some people need a fucking equation to be convinced of the obvious.

>>94642127
not just that, some of it is literally "later books reveal new stuff" which is just how gamelines work

>>94642174
Not all game lines deal with supplemental material making into later editions.

>>94642127
>completely betray core conceit of setting, overwrite a hundred underlying assumptions that are essential to the function of the game because you don't even understand them
>hurr durr it's fixed it's better it's the same game please buy my books it's totally nwod please guys please
lmao

>>94642062
>Mage: The Awakening, by contrast, reinterpreted Atlantis, shifting it from a definitive historical entity to a symbolic ideal, emphasizing metaphorical truth over historical certainty
>This thematic reshuffling in both lines highlights the significant departure from their original foundational myths.
It also shows a total misunderstanding of how nwod's universe worked and how to write mage (and other lines operating under the same logic). In VtR, if you ask the powers that be how it was, you get their hazy recollection. In MtAw, they give you a definitional answer; it is the way that they say it is, because they just now said that it was. In this way mage presents alternate options not merely as possibilities, like vampire, but truths. Of course, these truths are contradictory, yet they all can be true; retcons actually exist, they actually happen, and at the highest level of mage and changeling, people that players can interact with (seekers, gods, gentry) can actually remember them. You can search for, and discover, fundamental mythological truths; and these truths, while being merely personal truths, can be the personal truth of someone who sets the foundation of what is, always was, and always will be.

The god machine is product of the butchering and misunderstanding of this idea. You can't watch imperium happen in real time, some loser with a few cogs doesn't paper over reality block-by-block over the course of weeks, years, centuries. It always had happened, the change simply was, the fire that casts the shadows on the cave wall changed. You can look left to right and see the passage of history in the shadows, but if you look again it can be different, and two different timelines can exist at the same time because in the end, all they are are the shadows on the wall. The Truth is a changing thing that players can wrestle with in the climax to high concept stories, but you don't wrestle with it by scratching at the shadows. CofD/god machine chronicles did not understand this.

>>94642330
OK Troll.

>>94642330
>It also shows a total misunderstanding of how nwod's universe worked and how to write mage (and other lines operating under the same logic).
Lmao the troll is fishing for a reaction here.

>In VtR, if you ask the powers that be how it was, you get their hazy recollection. In MtAw, they give you a definitional answer; it is the way that they say it is, because they just now said that it was.
In which edition? That's a big part of my argumentation there.

>In this way mage presents alternate options not merely as possibilities, like vampire, but truths.
>Of course, these truths are contradictory, yet they all can be true;
>retcons actually exist, they actually happen, and at the highest level of mage and changeling,
>people that players can interact with (seekers, gods, gentry) can actually remember them.

Its within the realm of possibility due to how time magick works but it's never established anywhere.
It just changed from one edition to the other and there's no explanation as to why.
The system having mechanics that enable time travelling in game do not equate to said time travelling being responsible for retcons.
You fucked that one up big time because you're forgetting that it is never established anywhere in the core book that this is what happens.

In short: keep your head canon to yourself, schizo.

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>>94642356
>It just changed from one edition to the other and there's no explanation as to why.
???
My entire first post was about nwod, and the entire second post was about cofd.
You have brain damage.

>Its within the realm of possibility due to how time magick works but it's never established anywhere.
>it's never established anywhere.
Don't make me tap the sign
Hint: "imperium" is a keyword with a specific meaning

>>94642333
Meh, sometimes you just need the Occult equivalent of a hurricane and watch the PCs trying to dodge the dominos.

>>94642611
Literally any 6-10 dot thing from any splat does that
Although it's a failure of implementation, even the very first VtR book floated the idea with the unholy
Ghost/spirit type creatures have had room for rank 6+ since the literal core mortal book

God machine fails to serve the role because it's at once too big and too small. It's supposed to be eternal and fundamental and implacable but anything acting on that scale that actually has it out for you can't be stopped. Spirits and elders and mages and stuff are much more impersonal and what PCs actually have to deal with are the fires that are left behind in their passing.

I'm speaking in abstract because in theory you'd have to build your own story for your own chronicle, but that's kind of the point. Infrastructure is a pretty stupid system (hardly a rarity for wod/nwod, mind you) but more importantly it's the same system every time, and that defies the whole point. If you really wanted that, just play V20.

>>94642621
>It's supposed to be eternal and fundamental and implacable but anything acting on that scale that actually has it out for you can't be stopped.
That's the point, it doesn't "have it out for you" specifically ever. Even for Demons it never acts directly, it sends Angels if you break Cover to handle you.

For a Player, they'll interact with Infrastructure, supernatural places of fuckery that are intended to be weirdness that doesn't have to have anything to do with any of the splats.

>>94642651
Except infrastructure are things it directly built and angels are things it directly told to do something
When a free rank 7-8 wants something done it happens. It happened. This is the world now. Deal with it. Saying players can deal with infrastructure is like saying they can deal with an imperial spell. If the god machine is large, there's no recourse. As it stands, under the internal logic of nwod, the god machine is something that some guy with a baseball bat with holy symbols carved in it could go and find and beat to death and it'd never trouble the world again.

>>94642674
>Except infrastructure are things it directly built and angels are things it directly told to do something
No, it sends Angels to build and operate Infrastructure to accomplish an ineffable something. It doesn't guarantee it will succeed if external interference occurs. Which Demons exploit as part of the game. And you'd know this if you had even a surface level reading of God-Machine content or knew anything about Demon.

>>94642688
Unlike you, I've actually read and played the game and am not just making shit up on the spot to try to staunch the rivers of blood pouring from your perforated anus

>>94642698
You say, as you absolutely lie about how the game works.