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>>94638174
Starbase 80 could take DS9 in a fight

seriously not even as a joke, that thing is huge, it's got to mass like 40x what DS9 does and it's probably older

why did Cardassia ever go to war with the Federation the first time

>>94639731
also I never even clocked that runabout on the other pylon before

that's a special little in-joke treat about scaling arguments if ever I saw one

>>94639731
Arrogance can make otherwise smart people do absolutely boneheaded things. Consider Japan's decision to go to war with America in 1941, for example.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

>>94639731
Starbase 80 is bigger but is the Cerritos scaled correctly here? Ships seem regularly mis-scaled when next to the station so Im always skeptical of sizes

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>>94639731
>>94640016
It's scaling. The Cerritos would be miniscule if they hadn't scaled it up for that shot. I wouldn't take LD scales too seriously.

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>>94639844
That’s a Karemman cruiser.

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>>94638174
>How do you incorporate static Starbases into your games or story?
Places for the crew to go back and forth between missions. Depending on what exactly is going on, they can be a source of downtime, and sources of plot hooks by themselves. At the minimum, I prefer to have the players start at a starbase when receiving their orders for the upcoming plot, so they can requisition anything they think they'll need.
>Any iconic ones?
DS9 shows up regularly because our campaign is post-war Alpha Quadrant, but I refrain from having any major show characters show up. However, it's not the main base the ship is stationed out of Spacedock-class that was brought over as the main Starfleet post so DS9 could focus on supporting Bajor and its immediate surroundings.
>Alternatively, what is your favorite starbase design.
Magic Mushroom.

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>>94640387
I wouldn't take DS9 scales too seriously quite honestly

>>94640514
they should be embarrassed for that Danbue shot how could they get away with making THAT so big.

>At the minimum, I prefer to have the players start at a starbase when receiving their orders for the upcoming plot
I really like this idea.

Also I guess there arent really that many super iconic starbases other than DS9. There's Yorktown, K-7, OG Spacedock, and then a bunch in Lower Decks more or less.

>>94641017
Second half was for >>94640510

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>>94640514
Fair, I think they change it a lot whenever something is docked to one of the pylons because it's a hard design to make that look right (i.e. show both the station and the docked ship clearly, AND not take up the entire space between the pylons - because inward-facing docking pylons are retarded).

All that said...
>>94640510
>>94639731
>>94638174
...Federation stations post-TOS can get GARGANTUAN, especially if they're re-scaling things for larger ships. Spacedock One could very likely fit DS9 inside its internal docking bay multiple times over with the scale given to it in this TNG episode.

Even the explicit canon sources have Spacedock One be nearly six kilometers tall.

>>94639731
>why did Cardassia ever go to war with the Federation the first time
Because the Federation expanded towards Cardassia's historic territory, and their Pah Wrath given right to lord over Bajor. Launch the Hutet, fill those labor camps!

Ensign Olly is canon GMs; how do you handle the PC who can Hadouken a Klingon Battle Cruiser?

>>94641563
Technically all she did was make a really giant version of her floppy lightning bolts, she just managed to time it perfectly so it stuck on the Klingons' shields at the exact moment it was firing a torpedo, so it literally blew up in their faces.

>>94641563
You may store up to 3 dice to spend to invoke divine powers.

1 die is replenished each time you shapeshift into an animal and rape someone.

You or another player may attempt to create a sufficiently convincing hologram to serve as victim. This is a Computers + Medicine task with +2 difficulty. Failure will prevent the generation of any more divine dice for the remainder of the mission.

>>94641654
But what do the dice gods need with a starship?

How do Vulcan ships handle pon farr? Say you've got a ship of 700 vulcans. That's 100 pon farrs per years or one every 3.65 days, if they were evenly/randomly distributed. Does every Vulcan ship remain within 3 days of Vulcan? Is there a Pon Ferry? Do all Vulcans aboard ships have to be married?

>>94642023
I can't think of a canon explanation anywhere I've read but you have to remember that the Vulcan Science Academy just doesn't run nearly as many ships and they tend to be bigger. I'm presuming there's a pon ferry and relatively relaxed leave to make it happen. If you had 2 months leave around your pon far it would make it much easier to schedule.

Although I do like the idea of the science ships being relatively full of married couples. Althought if it tickles your sea ivory no doubt there's two emergency human on each ship to be used as pon sluts in case of emergency.
>I mean it's only logical.

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>>94642319
>Althought if it tickles your sea ivory
Please explain further; I have never encountered this phrase before and I wish to know more. Language/region of origin?
> two emergency humans
The real reason the Vulcans helped create the Federation is finally revealed. North Florida's finest export; the disposable human.

>>94642319
> Althought if it tickles your sea ivory

I'm also curious about this idiom.

I've heard tickling the ivories in reference to playing the piano from when piano keys were made of ivory.

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>>94642481
That's what I was thinking too. Perhaps "sea ivory" is a reference to scrimshawing (a solitary two-handed pursuit in a bunk during long sea voyages)? It's an interesting phrase.

>>94641654
Zeus often had willing partners for his shapechanging sexual adventures, it need not be rape.

>She is super popular in navigation

>>94642023
didn't Voyager establish that Pon Farr can be resolved using the holodeck?

>>94642625
Indeed it did.

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Presumably that's an emergency backup option instead of something you build an entire culture around. Worf had to do his rituals on the holodeck because he was a) stuck in Starfleet, b) a huge QI'yaHboo, c) far from the homeworld. Hopefully Vulcans are a bit more logical about their arrangements.

>>94642625
I don’t think it worked either time though. Tuvok found the idea of nutting in a holo simulacrum of his wife offensive, and instead turned to rigorous meditation. And Vorik just pretended it worked so he could go pursue Be’lanna.

>>94643242
>>94642625
there was at least one other Vulcan on Voyager during its journey; she was present in the Maquis group in "Repression" wearing a command uniform but may also have been the science branch Vulcan seen in "Caretaker"; either way, since she wasn't part of the Equinox crew (and we can guess the possible ways that Ransom might have dealt with that problem, given that he had no Vulcans in his surviving crew), she must have experienced pon farr at least once between 48315.6 (the date Voyager discovered Neelix and Kes, corresponding to about late April 2071) and 54973.4 (the date Voyager begins outfitting the future tech in Endgame, corresponding to late December 2378); if she were Maquis, then we must add at least a few weeks between the ValJean's disappearance and Voyager setting off from DS9, as the ValJean was lost one week before Janeway visited Paris in New Zealand and arranged his release

since her pon farr is never mentioned, it was clearly dealt with an alternative way; we can only speculate as to how

>>94642023
>Do all Vulcans aboard ships have to be married?

This would be unlikely to resolve the problem as even on a Vulcan ship there would be casualties.

>>94642319
Ships to send horny Vulcans home makes a fair amount of sense, but it's likely - given that Vulcans were clearly excising any information in the Starfleet medical database given how little seemed to have been accrued by the Doctor's programming - that Vulcans have a hypospray that'll do for the short term, or they have a very weird couple of days in the holodeck fighting to the death and then a sudden marriage on board.

>>94643517
Both Tuvok and Vorik insist that it can be managed in seclusion with concentrated meditation. Tuvok was successful, where Vorik was not. So either lady Vulcan took a couple days to zen her way out of it, or she had a relationship with another member of the crew and could get it out of her system the old fashioned way.

>>94643517
Janeway killed her, explaining why she's not around in S5

Janeway later performed necromancy for some reason, allowing her to return in S7

>>94643649
Alternatively:
Remember when they put the entire crew except 7 into stasis pods for the episode plot?
They just forgot to get her out because the pod was in the corner the cargo bay with the broken lights.

>>94643649
>>94643883
She's Deck 15 mid watch. Her shifts are spent performing maintenance duties and correcting Crewman Telfer's theorems, which, mindful of his human emotions, she does without telling him in order to preserve his pride in his poor mathematical skills.

>>94643517
Doylian explanation is that Voyager was created before Enterprise introduced the concept of a female Vulcan undergoing pon farr; previously it was only the men.

>>94643561
>or she had a relationship with another member of the crew and could get it out of her system the old fashioned way.
This is, in all seriousness, the most logical way to handle things.

>>94644031
>"Hey, wouldn't it be, haha, funny if, haaaaah, the sexy vulcan character, hehee, was suddenly hopelessly horny!?"
>t. berman
Yeah, I'm pretty sure prior to them them deciding the above the deal is that pon farr was male only, akin to going into heat. Which already flips the gender script, but it doesn't work with vulcans if females only become especially receptive at certain times while men are always hornydogs ready to hump a leg at any opportunity. Although I'm sure some people might prefer it this way...

>>94645133
something similar does happen with eg elephants

males go into musth, females go into heat, but the effects are highly similar for both in terms of randiness and danger to non-elephants

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>>94645133
>Which already flips the gender script
There are tons of species where the males rut and compete for dominance to secure the best mates. I assumed Amok Time was a reference to that.

>>94645133
Did Vulcans even have the pon'farr before they embraced logic and repressed their emotions?

I have this weird idea that might just be some jackoff's headcanon that the pon'farr is just a byproduct of the current Vulcan lifestyle/culture and in the before times when they were turbo emotional they were more like other species and just fucked whenever they felt the urge.

>>94645826
Amok Time implies that's the case. It's brought up that Vulcans pre-logic fought each other to the death to mate, and McCoy theorized that the embrace of logic and ritual is what bottled it all up to a 7 year explosion.
That being said, Vulcans do still fuck whenever they get the urge and don't suppress the emotions behind it (the actress for Spock's wife in Amok Time played her character as if she was hiding an affair pregnancy), it's just the 7 year pon farr where they go nuts and have to fuck or die.

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>>94645826
Per TOS? I think it's unclear. It seems unlikely that certain biological urges wouldn't have existed prior (they're aliens though so who can tell). Logically (ha!) it seems more as if the suppression of emotions simply causes a, shall we say, buildup. Putting up a dam in front of a call to nature but eventually the flood waters will break through if they have to. What's amazing is that it can be fatal, but perhaps it's because they felt the episode needed more drama. Plus I guess it justifies the episode premise a bit more than simply, "Warp factor fuck yeah, let's go get Spock laid!"

>>94645743
Another instance of HFY, though I would point out that there are many factors that contribute to rutting behavior including females becoming receptive.

>>94645934
Oddly not the first time /stg/ has had a conversation along these lines. I remember a couple of discussions about whether Romulans go through pon farr. It typically comes with discussions about why Romulans can't mind meld and whether that ability comes from the discipline of logic - and why Romulans haven't developed their own version to weaponize logic. Thought police to read people and determine loyalty sounds right up their alley, but instead they're left with clunky, sometimes unreliable mind probe devices.

It IS odd because on the one hand we're told that Romulans and Vulcans have drifted so far apart biologically that a damn KLINGON was more compatible than any of the Vulcan crewmembers of the Ent-D to help save a Romulan's life, but per ENT the split between the two is only a ~2000 years ago. Hardly enough time for any major evolutionary divergence, but then they are aliens and atomic war was at play so radiation and all that? Why not. Remans being telepathic is interesting. I love the dumbass theory that Romulans and Remans got sexy with each other when they first met. Romulans wound up with bumpy foreheads, Remans got telepathy. Really rolled the dice and nat 1ed on that one, Rommies.

>>94646113
Romulans have limited telepathy. They gets a strange tingling feeling when someone nearby is plotting to betray them. Unfortunately, since this happens all time, Romulans are not aware they are telepathic.

>>94646113
>discussions about why Romulans can't mind meld and whether that ability comes from the discipline of logic

This is very possibly the case, it would be a very Gene thing to have the enlightened Vulcans become psychic and sense things happening light-years away (clearly on the path to becoming omniscient and then on to true godhood from there, as with so many other species) while the Dastardly Romulans can't do it because the universal harmony is for Enlightened Fellows only.

>instead they're left with clunky, sometimes unreliable mind probe devices

In-universe as depicted to date I'd suggest that's more a stylistic choice; even the first time we saw Romulans they were underhand and devious and many in positions of power clearly revelled in fear, despite the honorable conduct of some.

That leaves open the possibility that they can do mind-melds but either lost the knowledge (as the pre-Enterprise Vulcans mostly had) or choose not to do them because of a social or cultural taboo - the thought police victory.

>- and why Romulans haven't developed their own version to weaponize logic.

That I can answer. They enjoy intrigue too much. Vulcans like puzzles, Romulans like politics.

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>>94646526
"But wouldn't the constant whispers of betrayal drive you insane?"
"Yes. And in my madness, I plot betrayal."

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>>94642319
>Althought if it tickles your sea ivory
>>94642353
>>94642481
>>94642561
I still want to learn more about sea ivory.

>>94646113
My head canon is that Romulans can mind meld (with sufficient training), they choose not to because it repulses them to risk their own mind being influenced in the first place. There's so much paranoia running through the species that they'd rather use mind probes where there's no risk to the interrogator, only the victim.

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>>94646558
>Vulcans like puzzles, Romulans like politics.
That's the thing, it doesn't need to be a cross species thing, simply the creation of the Romulan Meld Corp. A question then becomes would the Romulans be able to trust their own version of the thought police? Yet what about the Remans? Hard to imagine they could be such formidable telepaths and still wind up enslaved so thoroughly. Hard to tell whether they suck that hard, or Romulans are just that good at betrayal.

>>94646673
>romulans and remans agree to share a world and will seal the treaty with a sexy union with their species
>per >>94646113 remans wind up with telepathy and romulans get fucky foreheads
>not only did the remans get the better end of the deal but they can sense the romulans are going to betray and enslave them
>reman points out how their new powers mean they will rule instead
>romulan just smiles and points out the reman is still cuffed to the bed
Sure there's an obvious logical problem in this scenario, but I enjoy it.

>>94646673
Oh but where's the intrigue when you can simply know what another mind knows? Where's the power when you lack a device to terrorize the non-compliant with? You just know those mind scans are dangerous not because they have to be or because of a limitation of the technology, but because the Romulan mind-probe technicians enjoy a little risk.

>>94646673
>>94646766
I think the best explanation for such a scenario is that the Romulans didn't really "fight" the powerfully telepathic Remans - they sowed distrust within existing Reman power structures and convinced the Remans to constantly both read and doubt each other's thoughts.

One of the easiest things the Romulans could have done is spread rumors that some Remans had discovered a way to hide clandestine thoughts, but not completely, so every random intrusive thought a telepath sees looks like the tip of a clandestine iceberg.

Then you'd have Remans genuinely trying to hide their thoughts from each other, and if they pull it off, now there really ARE clandestine icebergs. Internal Reman trust collapses, Romulans swoop in and clamp down hard on telepaths (make it benevolent, too - justify it by saying it's preventing a Reman civil war, for example). Remans no longer have enough agency to unseat their new overlords, even with telepathy, and the advantage they had is now meaningless because they're all corralled into mines.

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>>94646113
I'm not sure if I stole this from a beta-canon source or if I just invented it for my game, but in our adventure I introduced the possibility that Remans and Romulans used to be the same species. The Remans were the psionic elements of the Romulans, and over their journey to the new homeworld they were beaten down into a subordinate caste so they couldn't repeat the telepathic tactics common during and before the time of awakening. Over a dozen generations of mutation on Remus / the interference of genetic engineering by the Romulans, the telepathic Romulans became Remans.

>>94643531
Casualties on a science ship would be few and far between and no doubt that the ferry bringing new crew can take back widows/ers just as well.>>94645934

>artifact of cultural represion
You know I take back all the bad things I said about early human Vulcan relations. If the can gold the baddest need to nut, a need to absolutely get ruined by the baddest bitch with the hottest body, and hold it stone cold dead inside for 7 years and then die. I'm sure they were doing their best with early humans.

The kind of funny thing about this is that the founding races of the federation largely gravitate to the wrong roles. The strange cultural needs vulcans should be the logical applied science engineers, the argumentative tellerites science theory. The hot blooded [kek] andorians in war and exploration and the humans filling in the corners.
>I also want renegade andorian clans to join the klingon empire both being mighty and naturally hating vulcanoids. My Sto alien dead cannon must be ome real cannon.

So what exactly was Freeman doing at Starbase 80 during the Mars attacks

>>94647598
I'm not sure I would want to get on a shuttle with a grieving, horny Vulcan

also few casualties is not no casualties, clearly there's a non-disruptive, non-bullshitting-the-non-vulcan-cmo way of dealing with it

it probably is just a hypospray, but it's a super embarrassing thing to ask for even though any ship could replicate it

>>94642023
Do you think that if Vulcans are around each other for long enough, their Pon Farrs sync up?

>>94647868
>I'm not sure I would want to get on a shuttle with a grieving, horny Vulcan
>Vulcan, singing drunkenly, mascara running.
>Pon near, pon farr, wherever you are
>I believe that the heart does go on

>>94647909
Vulcans have been shown to inflict their emotional state on nearby people repeatedly.
>there is probably records of the Vulcan science ship Omaewa listing it destroyed all hands on deck lost with a single note _
- Pon Farr Sync

>>94646931
If you don't know the answer to those questions, you're thought policing wrong.

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>>94647277
>>94647429
I don't think all remans are telepathic, or at least not to the extent Subcommander Rape was. Also it probably helped that Troi is telepathically receptive. She tagged him the same way he tagged her.

>>94647920
>not "I believe that the katra goes on"
it was right there anon

>>94647653
That day was her anniversary, her and her husband spent most of the day together without combadges active.

I still resent the fact that the only attempt to even pretend to be real Star Trek in an entire generation has been a comedy cartoon inspired by Rick & Morty. I still think it was largely incredibly cringe, neither being funny when it was trying to be or pulling off most of its serious moments without undermining them with forced levity & quips. I still would rather all of nuTrek blinked out of existence and everyone involved in its creation had to spend eternity trapped in a hell dimension having their genitals rearranged with hot pokers.

But.

Lower Decks was, in the end, a good thing in the context of nuTrek existing because with one blink-and-you-miss-it scene they basically decanonised every other part of nuTrek. I have no idea how they got that Shitscovery Klingon quantum-transform scene past the higher ups, but I salute them for making at least one single solitary positive contribution to Star Trek. Well maybe two, that "engage the core" joke right at the end was actually bretty gud.

>>94647653
Day One of the attack? Mourn (possibly with Morn). Day Two when the Federation Council outlaws all synthetic life she coordinates with other like-minded individuals in Starfleet to open an Interstellar Underground Railroad to help hunted synthetics to escape to other realities that haven't been infested by Kurtzman.

>>94649207
Prodigy was also good. "All The World's A Stage" and "Time Amok" rank among the best Trek episodes of their type ever written.

Strange New Worlds is also not terrible. Not great, but much better than Discovery or Picard. But at the end of the day, it's a silly thing to get angry about.

>>94649319
More like Day 1-117: business as usual as the long range comms array has been down ever since Lieutenant Edgefield tried to boost the subspace signal to pick up Andorian hockey and accidentally summoned those clicky bastards who abducted Riker that one time. Nobody had their blood turned into yogurt, at least, since the clickies were eaten by the bats. Good news is the bats are now some other dimensions problem. Bad news is the array needs to be reset before they can risk powering it up again. It's on the repair schedule, so it should be another 20-50 days, tops.

>>94649355
It'd be funny if those clicky guys had no idea huamns were sapient and keep turning up to apologize to Riker in deeply weird extradimensional ways. He goes to sickbay to fix a toothache; when he returns to his quarters, they're knee-deep in perfect cloned teeth. He gets stranded on a planet; the aliens return him to the Enterprise one organ at a time, then reassemble him. You know, helpful things. They're really sorry.

>>94649350
I sometimes wonder how I'd feel about SNW if it had been the first of the live action shows to come out. It's different, definitely pushes the envelope in expanding TOS to be higher tech and the Enterprise to be much more roomy and impressive. I mean Pike's quarters have a goddamn fireplace! The transporter in sickbay is an interesting idea and definitely not bad for that era when intership beaming is the fever dream of madmen. Pad to pad, however, makes perfect sense.

Young Uhura is surprisingly good. I was iffy about the concept but it's worked out. I mean she's not dating Spock at least. Scotty looks like he'll stick around as a transporter chief, which isn't a bad place for him at this time. Robert April being black does seem to irk certain people.

There's also a lot of weird design choices. Why the Gorn? And why are they basically if a xenomoroph fucked a Halo Elite? Then they've done a musical episode and coming up will be a genetic engineering episode where they turn several of the cast into Vulcans. The previews were a tad controversial.

My point is, I can't determine if starting out with SNW would mean I'd hate the show more, or accept it as, "Eh, could be worse."

>>94649440
>The previews were a tad controversial.
And then you think of any given ToS episode, such as the one where the crew wander around a haunted castle with a giant cat, or the one where Spock's brain gets kidnapped, and you stop worrying so much... right?

>>94649449
Every series has its Sub Rosa moments BUT you have to take into account the shortness of the modern season. This magnifies every misstep.

Right now the notion that a genetic cocktail can turn a human into a vulcan AND somehow instill logic? I can see why this bothers people. Of course the trailer might be misleading, in this case being a trailer adds the hope that is cope to this dope. We'll have to see what happens when the actual episode comes out.

>>94649207
Except it didn't decanonize anything, the creators affirmed that the other day

>>94649350
I'd have watched the shit out of SNW if they hadn't redesigned the entire aesthetic of the era, but they did, so I shan't. Some people - very very stupid people - will try to argue it doesn't matter, but to me it's indicative of their entire approach to the franchise; what came before is mere fodder for their superior modern sensibilities to mold into the show *they* want to make, not the one fans want to watch. The contrast with the approach taken by the original team back in TNG/DS9 days is stark and unflattering to the newer material. Other people - even more monumentally retarded ones - will insist the real TOS aesthetic and technology are "too outdated", but for my money if you don't want it to look or sound or behave like TOS, just don't make a TOS show. After they "updated" everything and sprinked holograms everywhere you can barely tell the difference between SNW or Picard sets anyway, they've erased all sense of progression and time passing between eras because their tiny brains can't grasp the truly genius design work done for TOS and need everything to look flashy and CGI'd out the arse. The same mentality infests all modernist creative fields, architecture is another perfect example of people who think their bland, samey, place-less slop designs are genius and classic designs that people actually like and want are "outdated".

And I don't buy the "make TOS higher tech" thing >>94649440, the genius of original TOS was that it was *purposefully* obtuse and simplistic in how things looked and worked in order to imply the workings were so advanced we postindustrial barbarians just can't comprehend it. Now it's just Modern Scifi Tech 101, nice and dumbed down so Steve in accounting can understand what everything is at a glance.

>>94651503
They can do whatever damage control they like, the scene is unequivocal proof that Shitscovery klinks are from a separate quantum reality than the TOS/TNG varieties, and so by extension any part of nuTrek that uses them and associated designs is also not part of the "original" reality of classic Trek.

>>94649569
>right now the notion that a genetic cocktail can turn a human into a vulcan AND somehow instill logic?
Bev. Crusher turned Barclay into a spider and a cat into an iguana accidentally! With a flu shot! I'm sure it'll be fine.

>>94651585
Except not, just that that specific ship and crew was quantum entangled with disco klingons. In case you missed it, another klingon ship turned into a barge of the dead but most were just barely changed.

>>94651585
what's it like to get angry about fiction instead of just not consuming it

>>94651574
>And I don't buy the "make TOS higher tech" thing
It helps to remember that Federation aesthetics were apparently shifting quite dramatically at that period, shifting from TOS to TPM to Wrath. However once they hit the general look of Wrath they more or less stuck with that for nearly a hundred years. Guess they finally found something that looked.

And this basically is the problem. If someone says, "You're trying to make sense of movie styles," well, yeah, just as we're trying to make sense of TOS' style. It's the same thing: accounting for it in-universe. Similarly how the later films were reusing TNG assets, explaining why things look so familiar. Of course TNG had this as well. The ENT-D had a VERY definite look. LD hints on that with the wood paneling on the bridge. It was the flagship, basically a flying city in space, complete with civilian population. I guess they felt they had to go all out. Sovereign is more of a straightforward approach, a ship to work in not admire the aesthetics, and that fits the time it existed which did have a lot of upheaval due to Borg invasions, Romulan incursions, Klingon civil wars, Klingon invasions, Dominion invasions.

What I DO respect from SNW is that they do use elements from TOS. The trial of Number One, especially, involved not just the same computer sounds but the data diskettes from TOS. Of course they make them translucent plastic with a more technological flair instead of the painted wooden blocks, but that's the point. I can accept that Pike has a bangin' bachelors pad for his quarters as they make allowances for being able to make larger sets. They aren't on the Desilu tight pursestrings that saw them cranking out episodes using props from other series. "Here's another Earth but it just happens to still be the 1960s for them. Here's Roman world. Here's Nazi world. Here's castle world. Here's gangster world."

Just my 2 strips of latinum anyway.

>>94651629
Yeah, but Crusher was either incompetent or sadistically causing medical fuckups for fun. Though few things beat McCoy not knowing basic Vulcan physiology. Motherfucker you may be a good ol' country doctor, but that's no excuse for you not to know how to treat species you know will be assigned to your ship! And what about all the unknown you're supposed to be helping to explore? Don't they teach xenobiology as a required course at Starfleet Medical?

Still back to Crusher, perhaps it's just a fluke of the prohibition against genetic engineering that every time they do even low key manipulation they fuck up royal. If they still allowed it to be properly researched maybe they'd know how to handle and account for it better.

>>94649350
"All The World's A Stage" is a 10/10 Star Trek episode. It's up there with all my other favorite episodes.

>>94651503
As far as I'm concerned, Everything Burnham did exists in one quantum bubble, and Lower Decks and its entire universe exists in a separate quantum bubble.
And hey, maybe there's a third quantum bubble where both exist together. I don't care for that bubble, because I want the crew of the Cerritos to have bright future ahead of them for the next millennium.

>>94652869
Please understand, Vulcans only joined the Federation recently and they're dicks about sharing information.

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>>94653247
>the vulcans are no longer founding members of the Federation but now recent joinees
Goddammit, Daniels, what did you do now!

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>>94653247
"One of my ancestors married a human female."
Do you mean your dad, Spock? Your dad, who married your mom?

It's like getting medical info out of Johnny Tight-Lips. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATs2IDJJ73I

>>94653261
Seriously, go back and rewatch TOS. With the notable exception of >>94653356 from the very first episode, most of what's said makes far more sense if you assume that First Contact happened and Sarek and Amanda started boinking immediately after as opposed to the later canon of "Been in a political union for 100 years, and first met 100 years before that."

>>94653399
It's a shame he has to rely on Spock for a detailed anatomical makeup of his own species and that there aren't other, more direct sources from Vulcan itself which could be taught in Feddie medical school.

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>>94653399
>>94653526
Reminder that M'Benga wasn't invented by SNW but was in TOS. He interned on Vulcan where he mastered their advanced medical techniques such as slaptometry.

>>94653576
It's kind of weird that he goes from chief medical officer to just an on-call doctor under Bones. I suppose these things don't quite matter as much in the medical profession, gives him more time on the recreation deck working on his backswing.

>>94653631
>It's kind of weird that he goes from chief medical officer to just an on-call doctor under Bones.
Are you kidding? A much more chill position, fewer dangerous away missions, and nobody cares if you take the afternoon off. It's the ideal job for a doctor who's been to war, tried experimental combat drugs, lost a daughter to a nebula, and needs a stiff drink.

>>94654119
>Are you kidding?
This is why it's so important to read an entire post before responding.

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>>94649319
>she coordinates with other like-minded individuals in Starfleet to open an Interstellar Underground Railroad to help hunted synthetics to escape to other realities
I completely believe this. Prodigy S2 made me realize there's definitely pockets of Starfleet keeping the positive dream alive while everything goes grimdark.

The Cerritos would be swamped with what I assume is a 24/7 schedule of delivering supplies to planets desperate for resources though. But I'd like to assume that as the "Enterprise" of the fleet it's delegating that to different people and more going on peacekeeping missions or something.

>>94649355
>>94648977
I also believe this.

>>94649440
I think Lower Decks, Prodigy and Strange New Worlds had an inherently harder time gaining traction due to the existence of Discovery and Picard. People had no hope. Lower Decks had the hardest job so the fact that it's come out the other end being the most love is actually really fucking impressive. SNW having the easiest time coming after two great shows and still dropping the ball is comparatively a shame. Prodigy also didnt catch on but that's more an indictment on the Star Trek fanbase than the show itself

>>94649449
>>94651629
It's not about the quality, it's people saying the show doesnt get Vulcans, and it's compounding on the problems the show has with that topic before. That bad episodes exist doesnt mean people cant be upset if they think SNW isnt good with Vulcans.

There's a subset of the fanbase that do nothing but read hundreds of Spirk stories and live and breath TOS era Trek. If the Spock portrayal is 1% off they'll be angrier than anyone else by far, and so far they seem not pleased.

>>94654472
>The Cerritos would be swamped with what I assume is a 24/7 schedule of delivering supplies to planets desperate for resources though. But I'd like to assume that as the "Enterprise" of the fleet it's delegating that to different people and more going on peacekeeping missions or something.
Considering the other problems of a similar scale that Starfleet has solved with time travel, universe hopping, Q-baiting, or some new technobabble of the week, I can't imagine that they'd let this latest major crisis with logistics instead of shenanigans. But that's up to the writers.

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>>94654487
It's hard to get Vulcans right.

>>94654472
I mean you can imagine Freeman calling up her daughter and asking for a totally zany plan that breaks all the rules and would piss the admirals off if they ever found out about it. "P.S. Don't tell your father."

>>94651574
>After they "updated" everything and sprinked holograms everywhere you can barely tell the difference between SNW or Picard sets anyway, they've erased all sense of progression and time passing between eras
Enterprise already did that

>>94654656
>Considering the other problems of a similar scale that Starfleet has solved with time travel, universe hopping, Q-baiting, or some new technobabble of the week, I can't imagine that they'd let this latest major crisis with logistics instead of shenanigans. But that's up to the writers.
Is it bad that I'd have my Time and Reality hopping self-insert deliberately prevent the Synth Attack on Mars?

>>94655055
I considered mentioning that ENT was hugely controversial in the fandom at the time (for a number of reasons), but figured the conversation was already zesty enough.

Personally... I didn't mind it much. The tech level in ENT was passably low enough that you could see the broad strokes of development, and it, again in my opinion, had way worse issues with the time travel crap. Their first major course correction wasn't to start showing the birth of the Federation, no, it was a divergence into the never before scene Delphic Expanse. By the time they remembered to start building up the Federation it was too late to avoid cancellation.

Tech wise, it's harder to pin down what was too much or shouldn't have been included at all. Obviously they didn't do shields, just shields by another name. Still I've seen some people liking that polarizing the hull plating was just renamed the "structural integrity field". fwiw there have been instances of polarizing the hull in chronologically later series). Phase cannons and photonic torpedoes were probably too much. Phase cannons might not be too bad if they were maybe locked in a forward mounted position. Transporters? Definitely could have been skipped. Perhaps added in later seasons, but even then only able to send between dedicated pads.

The one that really got me? I wish they'd stuck with the EM pistols far longer. Turns out Braga wished they had too.

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>>94655059
It's a sign that you need to touch grass, but then again, this isn't the board for grass-touchers. Run a game for actual humans instead of wasting your life maladaptive dayreaming.

>>94655307
>Personally... I didn't mind it much. The tech level in ENT was passably low enough that you could see the broad strokes of development
The bridge has FUCKING LCDS ON IT

LCDS WHEN THE ENTERPRISE WAS USING CATHODE RAY TUBES

I mean seriously wha the FUCK were they saying with the fucking LCDs
That the Federation were retards that forgot how to make them? Did Earth get nuked a second time?????

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>>94655657
>>94655653
Sometimes, only a Doylist explanation will do. What the future looks like changes; any series that wants to portray a future, instead of a retrofuture, has to adapt.

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>>94655657
>>94655653
Consider; TNG and beyond use touchscreen controls, because they're futuristic and didn't exist (outside of a few very buggy demos) at the time.
But now we have touchscreen controls for vehicles, and everyone agrees that they suck. They'd be insane to use on a starship that's constantly rattling around. Buttons, ToS style, make a lot more sense, but they're not futuristic.

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>>94655691
>Implying that something sucking worse than technology used half a century ago ever prevented a fleet from making it standard issue for optics reasons

>>94639731
DS9 is an mineral processing and shipping facility turned open port/diplomatic facility that is later hastily converted to a military base within the span of a single year. They're not really comparable.

>>94655711
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERFe6Tmzf8
Sometimes, you've got to build it at full scale to prove that it sucks, and to find out all the unexpected ways that it sucks, and to measure exactly how much it sucks. And sometimes you get the added bonus of your enemies making the same expensive mistakes (Space Shuttle Buran).

>>94646113
For a paranoid authoritarian society, literal thought police would be terrifying concept. Sure, you can read a mind, but it would also mean they could easily alter a mind. Any telepath would be a major threat to the State just by existing and telepathic security forces would be an invitation to getting overthrown by said security force. To use another show as an example, Babylon 5 had a running background plot that Psi-Corps was planning on overthrowing humanity in favor of a telepath controlled social and government order.

>>94655711
In all fairness the LCS got the triple whammy of unreasonable design parameters, mission creep, and being testbeds for unproven concepts. Then they decided there needed to be two separate designs.

But more on topic, from a use function the controls on TOS are terrible. Rows upon rows of unlabeled buttons that flash randomly, have no rhyme or reason to their color scheme, unprotected from accidental presses, and seemingly all of them are used in ordinary operations.

>>94655718
True, but it also housed the Cardassian governor of Bajor. Makes you wonder why there were no other facilities, given that DS9 was at least 20 years old when the Federation took it over and the occupation had been going on for 50 years. It paints a picture of a Cardassian Union with extreme problems with infrastructure and corruption, which is weird because they have replicators and fusion and antimatter reactors.

>>94651668
It's explicitly stated that the effect of the field is to change objects from that quantum reality into equivalent objects from a different quantum reality. Ipso fatso wotsit Shitscovery klingons are from a different quantum reality.
>>94651944
>No u guise you don't get it, it's a GOOD thing that I uncritically guzzle down every steaming heap of shit placed in front of me and have never had a strong opinion about anything in my life

>>94655055
A hugely ironic post, given that A; Enterprise was widely derided at the time for the same reasons and B; Enterprise's sins in this regard were significantly smaller than nuTrek's in general and SNW's in particular, and they at least had the good grace to make an effort to explain away their laziness and feel a bit embarassed by it, rather than trying to insist WHy tHAt's A GooD ThINg like nuTrek shills do.

>>94655676
>adapt
Which it should do by continuing to advance its internal chronology. Putting aside that there's nothing wrong with retrofuture, if you want to continue exploring an already defined period within that internal chronology, you should continue to depict it in the same manner it was previously depicted because otherwise what's the fucking point of using established IP with established depictions at all. Apply any of their justifications to historical fictions that involve our own reality and they fall apart immediately - if you depict Renaissance Italy with 1980's technology and social mores, you're not actually depicting Renaissance Italy; yeah well if you depict TOS with TNG+ tech and Current Year writing then you're not depicting TOS. End of.

Which is what the real problem is in the end: modern hacks who want the veneer of respectability and safety of an existing IP, but don't have any respect for nor real desire to work with that IP, and who only value it as a vehicle for their own ideas and expressing their own supposed-talents.

>>94655877
The Ceritos changed into a whole bunch of different classes from other realities.
Guess they don't have shit like the Freedom or Sovereign in their universe...

>>94655889
>A hugely ironic post,
Fuck you you goddamn LCD apologist. I fucking love technological regression because that's what Star Trek is ALL ABOUT, am I fucking right? Because Kacynzski was right and people who strive to push back the frontiers of knowledge through science are in fact greater monsters than Stalin and Hitler could ever be. That's an ideal Star Trek can and should stand behind!

>>94655915
Kurtzman at least has the good grace to stab you in the face. Enterprise pays lip service to Star Trek and seduces you into believing that's enough, while the GODDAMN LCD MONITORS are around you, behind you, watching you all the time, in every single episode. Yeah, this is still Star Trek, pay no attention to these LCD MONITORS! The LCD MONITORS aren't important! Not important at all! Why are you so obsessed with these LCD MONITORS? It's your fault that you have an issue with these LCD MONITORS, not the show's fault!

And it goes on through dozens of episodes, and the LCD MONITORS in the background work their way into your mind through the corners of your eyes. Until there's nothing left, the LCD MONITORS are Star Trek now. And by then it's already too late. LCD MONITORS happened ages ago, that means they're right! Fuck you and fuck every one of those cocksuckers, because everything happening now is terrible, that means that what happened before must be less terrible right? Because the LCD monitors had nothing to do with it! It's because of some totally unrelated and modern reason, and not the fact that you should have smashed every LCD monitor to pieces when you had the chance, instead of letting them corrupt everything.

>>94655877
Cerritos turned into a Galaxy, Sovereign, Oberth and Freedom class. All ships classes from the prime timeline. This we can say that things from alternate realities are not exclusive to those realities. A Klingon turning into a disco orc doesn't preclude them also existing in that same timeline. You know this but are being willfully dense.

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>>94656344
>Kurtzman
Raise

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>>94655764
They probably already did, just using Reman slave enforcers. Imagine how brutal the training process would be before you'd trust them into hopping into minds.

>>94655718
What does SB80 have on DS9 other than size?

>>94658180
Reliable Starfleet-sourced parts instead of Cardassian tech. Without access to nearby Cardassian derelicts, DS9 would probably fall apart in a few months.

>>94658180
Live pythian bat fights. Much better than vole fights that Quark isn't allowed to host, only in this case it's not really organized, there's no bettering, and the thing they'll be fighting is you and every other living thing around then with a shrieking vengeance like some blood-thirsty banshee from hell.

>>94658411
The entire concept of SB80 is that they dont have reliable Starfleet parts

>>94656344
>>94656829
It's impressive that Star Trek has survived despite having awful people running it so consistently

>>94660087
>It's impressive that Star Trek has survived despite having awful people running it so consistently
Roddenberry and Desilu managed to hire enough people who believed in it back for the original series. Once that happened, cultural inertia did the rest. The kids who grew up loving the original series ended up working on TNG and DS9, and the kids who grew up loving TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT are now working on the new shows. Yes it sucks that shitty producers and executives have been a constant, but the nature of Star Trek means there will be enough actors and lower level creatives who legitimately want to do something good with it that it will shine through, even if only in bits and pieces against the executives' wills. Eventually the people growing up on today's Star Trek will mentally filter out the shit and only remember the stuff that was relatively decent, and carry that forward a few decades from now.

>>94658180
A very stabby underclass. Seriously, I'm surprised those guys allowed the place to be moved like that. You think they'd want to remain closer to their territory, unless it wasn't very far away.

>>94660133
>mentally filter out the shit
RIP seasons 1-5 of Star Trek: Discovery
RIP seasons 1 and 2 of Star Trek: Picard (and probably the 3rd season as collateral memoryhole damage).

>>94654472
>Prodigy also didnt catch on but that's more an indictment on the Star Trek fanbase than the show itself
Not liking something is never, ever an indictment on a fanbase. Prodigy didn't get over the "kids show" barrier, and that's bare minimum for catching on - it's not a barrier the fanbase is obligated to pull the work across with word-of-mouth evangelizing. If the work couldn't do it, it couldn't do enough to catch on, simple as.

>>94654472
Strange new worlds was great to me because I watched it right after bailing on discovery and that set a low bar. I'll always rate it higher than it deserved because if it came out before DIS or PIC it would have been seen as mediocre but not a disaster.

>>94660451
I feel like Saru ended up pretty much being the only thing from Discovery universally well liked, so I can see the Kelpians being a mainstay. Managed to get a few Denobulans in the cartoons and SNW because Phlox was liked.

>>94660451
NTA but i don't really even view the 'kids show' aspect as being the nail in the coffin. To me the nail in the coffin was another case of them having a massive gap between the first and second halves of the first season. Besides invincible, I don't know any other cartoons that have survived the fall off that comes with it.

Then the whole up in the air fate of season 2; Prodigy never stood a chance

>>94660451
I do wonder what the future will think about these shows. It doesnt help that what we think about the Berman era shows isnt consistent, it isnt a niche take that Voyager and or Enterprise suck, and LD was regularly called the first good thing since DS9 as much as it was called the first good thing from ENT.

Will PIC S3 be seen as good, or get buried with the other two seasons like it deserves because it was shit? Are people going to split Discovery into the past seasons and future seasons and choose to like one of them? Is it gonna end up like Enterprise where people say it ended when it got good? Ive already seen that take. Im curious. LD and SNW will obviously be the most popular but it sounds easier to get inspiration from LD to make new stories

>>94660451
>Not liking something is never, ever an indictment on a fanbase.
I dont fully agree with this. I put a lot of the blame on Paramount, the marketing was terrible and the big gap in S1 hurt it. They insist on calling Prodigy a kids show and Lower Decks a teen show, but Lower Decks was established enough for people to ignore that. It killed Prodigy interest.

But at the same time, Star Trek fans seem hostile to animation in a way Star Wars fans arent, and it's to the detriment of the franchise.

The new Star Wars 'kids show' seems to be doing quite well
If it keeps it up I wonder if Paramount will take another look at Prodigy or something like it.

I still think a tv series set during the Iconian War would do pretty well, it was a solid story

I forget that as per Discovery the Iconians come back between now and the 32nd century

>>94663019
It was a solid story, but it was also a solid buildup. They played it close to their chests for years sprinkling hints in. I'll never forget that "Unidentified Ship" (back when it was just a glowing purple ribcage) that just appeared and vanished in one of the Romulan missions for that moment of "holy shit, what the fuck is that?" There are so many different plotlines the breadcrumbs are sprinkled into without it feeling like it takes over everything... until suddenly it becomes clear that it had been hovering over everything in the background from the beginning. There were some retcons to make it work IIRC, but any mission where an Iconian gateway showed up had an extra bit of 'cool factor' to it.

I think what most impressed me at the time was the fact the Romulan faction release gave you a bunch of new hooks into the Iconian plotline... without actually giving the game away. We knew they were coming, but not where, how, when, or even why. It was great.

The player character being essentially like the "Emissary" for the Iconians was, I think, a really cool twist for the conflict to end on, especially if you'd played through all the breadcrumbs over the years.

Though I really wish we got some followups with the surviving Iconians.

>>94661058
>Star Trek fans seem hostile to animation
Nah, this is just you trying to find something to blame the fans for because you like Prodigy. Relax.

TAS was quite well liked by fans when it released, warts and all, and "animation hostility" didn't really exist for LD - LD got hit at the beginning by a) crossfire from DIS being god fucking awful and b) the pilot being rough and a little too Rick and Morty. If people disliked the animation it was generally because they thought the animation style was too close to Rick and Morty... not because it was animated. But it found its footing within the first season, which most Trek shows do not, and people really like it now that they have more than the rough start to go on.

>>94655875
>It paints a picture of a Cardassian Union with extreme problems with infrastructure and corruption

I dunno, seems legit to me. Nothing about the Cardassian Union really painted them as anything other than a second rate power - their planet was either so resource poor or tapped out that they had to sell their culture to keep the lights on until they started doing expansionist stuff like occupying Bajor to pull their society out of collapse.

>>94660087
>The entire concept of SB80 is that they dont have reliable Starfleet parts

I've only seen it in LD and I got the impression its concept was as a dumping ground for personnel who were just problematic enough to be a nuisance but not problematic enough to drum out of Starfleet, and that SB 80 itself wouldn't be so bad on a technical level if it wasn't undersupplied and understaffed. The tech's just old Starfleet stuff that's been well beyond the point where it should've been replaced.

I appreciate Lower Deck for what it is.
The only "Western Animation" I try to keep u with is Wakfu, so I don't know what a Rick and Morty is and I honestly don't care

>>94664860
I often think of that interview with Cillian Murphy where he asks “what’s a meme?” and I wonder what peace must feel like.

>>94664409
>Relax.
I dont say this with hostility, I like Prodigy but Lower Decks is my jam and that got 5 seasons and a great reputation, I won. But I do think that it was an uphill battle. Could argue that Prodigy not overcoming it is a knock against it and the promotion, but I wouldnt say the challenge wasnt there

>>94664622
The vibe I got from the station is that a lot of the fixes were easy but was just too low priority to get those fixes. With Freeman there I suspect a lot of the worst aspects will be ironed out and it will be just a normal TOS era base rather than one that's falling apart.

>>94664378
they were suggested as a possibility, if they had survived, for the weird shit that was happening

it's not like that time Kahless came back and they made him Emperor, or the time his magic sword made people crazy

>>94667512
Nice

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>>94667652

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To keep continuity, Captain Archer should have been a huge Christfag. I want to see him beating a Suliban to death with a crucifix.

>>94655307
I agree with all of this. The transporters were the most glaring misstep to me. They could have really made things interesting by not relying on them, but they literally use a transporter on a human in the first episode.
I wasn't a fan of the pistols having a stun setting. At least it should have been a separate little attachment module so it's like somebody attached a dedicated stunner under an existing pistol.
I did like the aesthetic. I wished the Malcolm and Hoshi interactions where he is training her to be more skilled in space adventuring had continued. Mayweather should have been transferred off the ship- I want to keep seeing him but he'd have had more to do as a guest star on a non-Starfleet ship than he ended up getting in the later seasons.

>>94655653
Chill the fug out. It's hard to do believably futuristic while constrained by having to hold TOS as the literal pinnacle. ENT captured the spirit decently, any problems it did in that regard have were not because of LCD screens. Lower tech should have and did focus on Trek specific tech and tech abilities, I don't really care what kind of screens and buttons they have. We see later with STD what true hackery looks like.

>>94655653
Prove that they are, in-universe, cathode ray tubes.

>>94669384
>I wasn't a fan of the pistols having a stun setting. At least it should have been a separate little attachment module so it's like somebody attached a dedicated stunner under an existing pistol.
most of the other factions use Disruptors, rather than Phasers, so Phasers essentially are the less-lethal option already, not just regular guns with a stun setting

DISCOsisters... how are we holding up knowing that LOW confirmed it only exists in a parallel universe?

>>94669796
I mean... isn't that ideal for everybody, including DIS fans? Its inconsistencies with other Trek don't hurt other Trek, and those same inconsistencies don't hurt DIS.

I mean, clearly if you're still a fan of what DIS does to Trek you're not a fan of other Trek (or you're deluding yourself because you were so desperate for the new Trek to be good when DIS was the only thing we had - trust me, I... I know the feeling).

>>94669796
>DISCOsisters
These people exist?

>>94655676
I rather like the explanation that the 2260s were having a massive crush on the 1960s, going back to the aesthetic for their decor and even their hairstyles. SNW does keep to this a bit. And given the dramatic shift in style between TOS and TPM there's time yet for the Enterprise to be made more retro-sixties furturetastic.

>>94671056
Yeah. Not sure if they're here but same with the JJ movies it has fans. As I understand it they are often more fans of the new stuff and haven't seen the old, but that's not uniform across the board either. I imagine there aren't many here. Probably reddit. Is tumblr still a thing? I'm not one to do the "you need to go back" bit, I simply mean there are places where discussions are more apt to take place. 4chan I don't see as one of them, and of course it has subs for the older series too, no doubt. If there is any newer place the cool kids hang out to discuss shit, I'm too old to pick up on it yet. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell a skibbidy toilet is.

>>94669616
They're dogthode ray tubes, much more advanced and a gift from the noble furries of Canis Major. Screw you, Caitian lovers!

>>94655059
what synth attack on mars? now you're just being silly.

after the hobus supernova destabilised and ended the romulan star empire, the entire alpha and beta quadrants go to shit. there is no retarded slave army of robots. starfleet isn't fascist psychotics. only demented retards would write such hate / anti-fan fiction.

>>94653576
I am HORRIFIED what they did to his character. fucking strange new worlds turned him into the niggest of niggers who ever niggered. they made him a rediculously psychotic murdering nutbar druggie scum.

like how the fuck is that all 'inclusive' and shit? his character was AWESOME already. he was a calm, smart, black MAN, who easily stood up alongside the main cast. a consummate professional. WE loved M'benga. this Nu kang bengi is just a disgusting insult.

HOW is what they did to M'benga's character NOT the most racist fucking shit ever?

>>94653631
the enterprise has a crew of 400+.
bones is CMO yes, but he and m'benga have the same rank.
while bones has a more generalised focus, m'benga has specialties. he's a cutter.

>>94653526
>>94653399
in the OG lore before the bevy of retcons, the constitution class was a 'nation building' exercise for the federation, moving from space ships, to a class of vessel so superior , with such massively improved capabilities, that it needed a new name, the Star Ship. the federation initially built 12. and they were mostly mono crewed. enterprise is the exception, with spock serving because of his friendship. there was at least one andorian only, and one vulcan only. so the enterprise's computers were loaded for Earthers. the fact they had an oversight of not including vulcan data, just shows what a 'frontier' and 'out of contact with shore installations' type thing the early federation had. hell, most of the federation colones and such the enterprise even visited were tiny little places way out on the fringes, since they were doing a 5 year mission.

>>94653165
as does picard, prodigy and strange new derps. hell. lower decks makes more sense as a fucking MIRROR UNIVERSE series than as prime universe. at least that way everyone being insane, psychotic and incompetent would fit. boimler being such a demented pathetic worm would fit if he's lived most of his life in the pain booths for being a pussy.

>>94654119
and being soft benched for being a murderous faggot.

>>94654472
Chance to condeem STD's and picards writing to a shitty alt universe
>muh replicants
people like you are literally why you can't have nice things.

>>94655657
>>94655653
LCDs were conceptualized during the run of TOS, if it had lasted the ship would have upgraded (as it was for TMP)

either way TNG retconned "cathode ray tube" trek in Encounter at Farpoint -

https://youtu.be/BRymGSc3MZY?t=136

(reminder that this entire bizarre culture with the Chinaboos and the crunk soldiers springs up in the post-Atomic Horror, a period of not more than 10 years before First Contact with the Vulcans on april 5 2063 per Star Trek: First Contact, meaning the furries are probably the only freak culture that dies in the wars as they are not represented here)

in any case TOS has the three-sided monitors that could not possibly use CRT projection (and in any case have flat screens, uncharacteristic of 20thC CRT), large flat panels which are clearly not CRT abound in TOS (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbENViWbu3w), the TMP Enterprise (no later than 2271) was using touchscreen flat panels on the con and other stations and the viewscreens, including the original TOS viewscreen which was ~70" x ~40", would require extraordinarily tough glass (tougher than the external windows of the ship), would have messed-up problems with their anodes and would (in the TOS case) be enormously bulky and heavy - a TOS CRT viewscreen would weigh like four tonnes and extend back half the width of the bridge, and it would have shit resolution and a terrible refresh rate

>>94654487
>even 1% off
Secret sister is not 1% off, they wanted burnham to be more spock then spock and when that failed flat slamming nose directly into the ground flat, they kicked it so far in the future they thought it could do no damage but that just let them claim to be the only canon source for that time and they proceeded to make it dumb and gay as they went. No one is going to miss post menopausal self inserts crying and shouting yum yum at each other.

>>94660206
When your 'partner and ally' drag a few dozen thousand of your clanmates into orbit of a new natural resources.

>>94673792
Only one gets to be CMO. The other has to be his subordinate.You can spin it however you want but it's still a downgrade from when he was CMO.

>>94655875
Why would they need other facilities? Bajor was a resource extraction colony and the Bajorans had little to no spaceflight capacity, sticking the governor in a space station means he's almost entirely safe from Bajoran reprisal for no extra cost in security measures.

>>94673938
CMO is the JOB, you ninny. not a RANK.

julian retard bashir wanted to get top spot so he could be a lowly medic on an excelsior going exploring. and since he is a retard, he got huffy that a mere leftenant, a newly minted one at that, got to be CMO of DS9, a job that by rights should have gone to someone far more seasoned and experienced.

>>94673967
the bajorans were building their own raiders throughout the occupation, what are you talking about

>>94673969
... And how did you miss that that's the point? I mean even Bashir made it a point that he was offered a civilian medical position that would see him rise to Chief of Surgery in rapid order. Guess what, doesn't matter if everyone else is "ranked" doctor around you, you're still the chief. You tell all the other doctors what to do.

Your version of Bashir makes no sense. He WANTED the posting at DS9, not the ship. Why would he get huffy that he himself got to be the CMO?

>>94669796
>LOW
Explain, as you would to a child.

>>94674141
>>94673969
Star Trek does this quite a bit. O'Brien as Chief of Operations can even order officers, because title trumps rank. He's senior staff, which makes him The Boss. Similarly there's multiple times when someone of lower rank is left in command of the ship, regardless of whether more senior officers are, for instance, stationed in Engineering. Being a bridge officer has its perks. Chief Medical Officer is The boss of medical, giving everyone else their assignments and being the person everyone else in medical is answerable to.

It's a downgrade, but there's many reasons why someone would accept it. There's obviously a lot of pressure that comes with the job. I can see him saying that he's already done his bit and doesn't need to again. It would give him more time for other pursuits, such as medical projects. Bones was a different animal. As he said in TMP, he prefers a competent nurse, not another doctor who will second guess all his decisions. He's probably just being cranky when he said it, though. He loves being cranky.

>>94674157
LOWer decks MAY have briefly insinuated that disco happened in another universe, though it doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen in the prime one either.

>>94674218
Is it the way the STD Klingons show up? Because we know that wasn't all about alt-universe but also temporal components as well since the proto-Klingons showed up again. If someone wants to play the card that obviously proto-Klingons existed in other dimensions, the same card can apply to them briefly having a period where they looked like STD abomination Klingons. Don't even get me started on the JJ shit. That universe just split off during the Kelvin incident, why are their Klingons so different?

>>94674199
I believe O'Brien was also in a senior department position with Captain Maxwell. While memory alpha notes that it's unusual for a non-officer it make sense during the war with the Cardassians. Maxwell appointed someone he trusted to do the job, rank be damned.

>>94674233
>temporal components

Or there's a quantum reality where Proto-Klingons never evolved into Klingons, whether the Discovery double-dongers or the ones we're accustomed to from every other show in the franchise.

>>94674233
>why are their Klingons so different?

because they're not manufactured boy-bands looking identical even though the current ones weren't born when the previous ones split up

neither are they reused props and redressed sets from nearly-concurrent productions set 100 years apart

>>94674332
Or simply hadn't evolved into the klingons we know YET. But that post touched on potential alternates and why that can't be used as an elimination factor regardless.

I wanted to run some STA and read through the 2nd edition manual these last few days, only to pick up the adventure guide today and find out it's written for 1st ed. Looking online it seems like converting npcs is simple enough, but I'm seeing a starfleet delta symbol around certain things, for example "4 *delta* Intense" in the description of a machine gun for the drone in the "Plato's cave" adventure, and I don't remember reading about that in the 2nd ed manual. What's that supposed to be?

>>94674233
>since the proto-Klingons showed up again
I mean that could just be an alternate universe where the Klingons never evolved past that point, or an alternate universe where the Augment plague devolved the Empire instead, or such.

>>94676351
That's the symbol for the challenge dice. In 1e, you roll d6s to determine damage and activation of effects during combat. So in your example, damage from the machine gun would roll 4 d6s, with "intense" as an added damage modifier.

>>94676351
1/2

you roll up to 5 d20's for successes at tasks, using 2 for the characters discipline + attribute for the task, assisted by a d20 from, maybe another character, or from the ship's department + attribute, and you can use 6 momentum to buy up to three more d20's. but 5 d20's is the max you can roll.

then certain things have steress dice. d6's. some faces are blank, some have 1 success, some have 2 successes. and one face has an 'effect' which counts as 1 stress + activating an effect.

for example, a sovereign class enterprise E shoots a borg cube with its phaser arrays.

the leftenant hawk, or worf, are making the attack, at difficulty 2, using their security + control, assisted by the ships security + weapons.

IF the character scores 2 successes on the three dice by rolling equal to or under the totals of those scores, that attack is successful.

then you roll stress dice. and since phasers are versatile 2, you gain two momentum. assuming you roll at least two successes, you activate the ARRAY special effect of SPREAD / AREA. decalred before attack, and since worf / hawk aren't retarded and only have a single target, they use spread to represent they're pouring the fire on as fast as the array strips can cycle.
say 7 stress dice? so you roll your 7 special dice, lets say you get 9 stress and 4 effects, you then roll 4 more stress dice seperately for each of the extra 3 attacks from arrays.
so say you get 4, 6, 8 stress.

thats 4 hits.
but the cube has soooo much RESISTANCE from being so massive, decentralised and madeout of redundancies. etc you take that OFF the top right away.
9 -8
4 -8
6 -8
8 -8

wiping out your three other hits and reducing the first hit to a mere ONE damage to the cube's shields. clearly its time for a quantum torpedo SALVO attack.

>>94676351

PLAY 1 e. 2 e is simple simon retarded. and 1 e has the entire shackleton campaign already. LOTS of quadrant splats and shit. as well as the entire KDF side splats.

don't worry about buying though. modiphius have the books printed in shitholes like lithuania and the bindings are really fucking cheap and glue sucks, so the books fall apart WAY too fast and easy. they really do NOT reflect their prices. so ste- i mean, yarr harr harr me hearties them

3/2
also not that momentum (immediate) spends can include buying extra stress dice.
which iswhy phasers rule, despite not being the flashiest weapons. you can generate SO muc momentum in combat shooting phasers, that you really can farm a pool of momentum to use throughout the scene.
have your tactical and security officers use their turns to shoot the enemy, then your ops or engineer can spend that extra momentum on their turn on regenerating power.
sure, other weapons have flashier effects, like high yield, piercing etc. but that versatile is so fucking useful.

goddammit. 4/2

take something non combat. Oh No! asteroids are going to fall on that colony and wipe them out! the galaxy class enterprise D warps in and worf starts popping rocks with AREA attack set phaser arrays. tasha yar shoots photons into the big ones. meanwhile geordi uses change position minor action to run and turbolift from main engineering to deflector control. where HE spends all the momentum from worf's attacks, on reinforcing and modifying the ships deflector into a super-tractor beam temporarily so he can slow and stop the hugest rock until it stops falling and settles into orbit instead.

the day is saved!

VERSATILE is your best fucking friend.


OR. take the adventures of the galileo 7! crashed on murasaki ? fog all around, attacked by unseen enemies with massive primitive weapons, spock DIRECTS his redshirts to fire their phasers at set targets, which gives him the momentum to spend on Creating an Advantage, his acute senses... he can sense the giants through the fog, letting HIM finally directly attack them, scaring them off.

even the common hand phaser is more tool than weapon!

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Rewatching ENT. I actually like it (yes even season 1 and 2), but it would be greatly improved by the sound effect of a beer cracking open whenever somebody proposes a terrible idea.

>>94676371
It's far worse than that. Running into STD Klinks from another universe means the stink of that show spreads across the multiverse.

>>94677934
>Captain, I must warn you that Lieutenant Reed's suggestion of a three way sexual encounter between us is likely an excuse for a two-way sexual encounter between yourself and Lieutenant Reed.

>>94678833
>T'Pol: The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that threesomes do not exist, and this is merely an overture towards a twosome masquerading as a threesome.
>Archer: I...see. Well I'd hate to disAPPOINT the Vulcans. All power to the hull plating, I'm go-ing IN.

>>94678170
That was already the case since season 1 of Discovery, seeing as they had Klingons in the mirror universe looking like shit too.

>>94679038
>pSHHHttt

>>94679747
Yeah but that's the Mirror Universe. If it's crass and/or tacky you expect they'll be all over it. Besides, who cares if they get shit up? They're already shit.

>>94679801
later
>Phlox: "The human vigor for, shall we say, exploration hmhm is quite commendable, but perhaps in the future you should explore with more temperament. Now. Take two of these thilianian scrote eels each, and get some bed rest. Trust me you'll know when they've finished.

>>94676468
>>94677573
>>94677635
>>94677724
Thanks for the in-depth explanation. I was gonna look for conversion guides but if what anon says here >>94677578 is true I might as well not bother and just read first ed instead. is it really that much better of a system? on a surface level the changes seem minimal, so running 1st over 2nd would just be a matter of not having to convert the existing material.

>>94681208
its not that it's better per se. it just has some more granularity and all the mission briefs in the 1e splats already, to give you ready made missions made to order.

>>94681208 1/ something
another really great example is EXTENDED TASKS. i should have lead with that one. in 1e your stress dice also help you in extended tasks.

Oh no! voyager has been ambushed by a kazon fleet! hiding in a nebula to make repairs, the ship's warpcore is totally offline and damaged!

b'lanna, harry and chakotay start udertaking an Extended Task to repair the core. now, since EPS plasma and bioneural packs are out all over the ship, and the warp core itself is damaged, this is going to be a difficulty 4 repair!
now. Extended tasks have a HARD TIME LIMIT, or "Time units" that pass as tasks are attempted. for each part of the task, each time someone attempts a d4 task as part of the extended task, some time units pass. 15 minutes here, 2 hours there, depending on the sub'task. so repairing the warp core, the big job, that's going to take a few hours at least.

b'lanna and harry get to work, meanwhile chokotay is running around like a blue arsed fly all over the ship directing damage control parties, repair crews.

you have work, magnitude and resistance. WORK is where your d6's come in. degrees of success at your sub tasks generate WORK, (what you roll on your d6's) that count to the sum total of work needed to complete the whole extended task. so fixing the warp core itself, takes hours, is difficulty 4 repair, and needs say, 25 work.

so. difficulty 4 repair. magnitude, 3 you need 3 successes at the task to repair, it. that's your three hours time to get the work done sucessfully. so you roll your three difficulty 4 repair tasks on the warp core, with an hour of time elapsing per. and you need to get at least 3 successes. MORE successes also let you generate MORE work, AND there are talents that help too.

your stress dice are usually 2, + the discipline. so a genius engineer with an engineering of 5 would be rolling 7 stress dice, which if you do the math, melts them generate QUITE a lot of 'work' towards the total.

>>94674157
>Explain, as you would to a child.
I get it, Jack

>>94681208
2/ something

so, for every 5 work you can score a breakthrough, if you go over the work for that sub-task, you score a breakthrough.

so, it urns out, since b'lanna is such a genius engineer used to fixing utter junk and crap, fixing a starfleet premiere top of the line warp core is a sinch! and she scores 3 breakthroughs in just 2 attempts, fills up all the work!

and all the momentum she and harry generated, is carried over into the other parts of the extended task, just like a 'scene'
and the stress dice effects, can help your TALENTED crew out by effects on the stress die for work letting you
score extra breakthroughs,
>b'lanna and harry repaired the core so fast they were able to pitch in with the repair crews on the EPS grid!
ignore some resistance to the task
>harry is able to help shunt plasma venting and eps shorts away from damaged areas safely so the crews can get in and fix them!
extra work, score an additional work for every effect rolled

momentum can be spent buying stress dice for work rolls. ignoring resistance, and rerolling any stress dice for the current work.

all in all, it makes even boring things like 'fix the ship' dynamic and flowing, success building upon success, a crew working together to achieve, despite the odds, racing time.

and when you indtroduce complications and disasters, even a simple 'fix the warp core' can be super hard AND nailbiting challenges...

B'lanna had to jury rig the dilithium intermix chamber!

scotty crosswired his so you have warp drive, for now! but it won't last!


or sudden changes can drastically alter the time you have to work with, some kazon ships have found voyager and you have to get that warp core NOW, under fire!

>>94681208
3/ something

1e is just FUN. exciting. the stress dice are exactly that, STRESS, the variability. JUST using challange dice for a binary pass / fail system sucks all of the penises. stress dice gives you DEGREES of success or failure. its all about that granularity, giving the players more information and more feedback, nuance to inform their play.

plus, how boring would the 'bomb' scene' in a movie be if it just either blew up, or didn't. in every bomb scene ever, there's people working at it, while the timer counts down... there is STRESS, there is character drama!

star trek adventures without stress dice is bland boring.

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>>94684077
No, Daniel, you don't. It's a CHILD. And I'm going to abduct it and love it and name it Charlie.

>>94674316
E-4 mafia always wins.

>>94664378
Who mogs: t'kon or iconians?

>>94660451
>Prodigy didn't get over the "kids show" barrier,
From a writing perspective, it punched above its weight class and could easily fit a "whole family" role similar to Dr Who. The animation style however is exclusively used for kidslop and that's hard to overcome.

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>>94658180
>What does SB80 have on DS9 other than size?
the best corn dogs in ANY quantum reality

>>94684212
What happens when an E-4 gets promoted or demoted?

>>94674316
Common fanon is it was a wartime field commission that wasn't permanent. He was entitled to keep the Lt pips until the peace treaty was officially ratified. Why wasn't it permanent? Given how proud he was to be a non-com, he probably preferred it.

>>94684226
>Who son of mogs
ftfy

>>94674316
tactical officer on the Rutledge, yes

there's no actual reason why a pay-less society would hold to paygrade ranks doing different jobs; O'Brien and other non-commissioned officers are recognised on the basis that they didn't graduate from Starfleet Academy, which makes the error here not of making the Chief an NCO doing a CO's role but of eg making Wesley an "acting ensign" instead of a petty officer until he had graduated from Starfleet, though that approach would also cause problems, in particular with the Maquis on Voyager, some of whom were Academy graduates and others of whom were not

ultimately even drawing the distinction is a legacy of Nicholas Mayer wanting to make a Das Raumboot instead of a sensible and thought-out rank structure; the lowliest Starfleet NCO's education makes most modern college professors look like middle schoolers

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>>94684396
Might be a verb, might be a noun.

>>94684551
It's not about paygrades, it's about what you've earned, and how you're vetted. We saw that during the Drumhead when a guy didn't want to wait to get through the full academy to be an officer so he went through the academy's adjacent training program so he could enlist. There is certainly no reason why an NCO can't be just as good as an officer. O'Brien has consistently been an example of that, and Voyager has a number of Maquis who never finished the Academy either.

Actual Starfleet Academy is far more rounded, intensive, and longer training for officers. An NCO can get by with a super focused technical program for the job they want. Again, they can both be just as qualified, but, again, the NCO will almost certainly be laser focused to a single duty. I'm sure outliers apply. The episode of DS9 with Worf's trial makes it clear that O'Brien is qualified, by his decades of experience, to command a ship (at least in combat). He also commanded a trip to Empok Nor. Of course everybody but himself, Garak, and Nog died horribly, but they got the air filters or whatever they needed.

>>94684737
>>94684551

its all about era's. actually. archer's starfleet had an 'academy' that was more of an examination place that merely vetted people for positions. and had like, very short courses. such as survival training in the australian outback.

then by kirk's time. the 400 + crew of the connie class enterprise crewed mostly by earthers, had a whole mess of enlisted, crewmen, yeomen etc. and officers who had actually trained extensively at the academy. to the point that kirk, as an advanced physics professor, even TAUGHT there during his time. probably as part of his own command track training.

then by tng era, starships are SO advanced, so sophisticated, that starfleet suffers the chairforce problem. EVERYONE's a fucking officer, due to their polymath multidisciplinarians. academy graduates of starfleet medical aren't just A doctor. they're internal medecine trained. and opthamologists. they're also endocrhine specialists. for like 50 + species simultaneously.

for a human doctor in OUR world, to be a polymath at multiple medical disciplines and sciences would be insane. like, someone THAT smart would pretty much run the whole fucking planet

and it goes for everyone in starfleet by that stage. so obrien being 'enlisted' just one of the normies, not one of those lofty officers... is mere affectation.

>>94684926
To be fair Starfleet in those early days of Archer wasn't even the interstellar force it would become. They had, what, a couple of warp four vessels at most? Their warp 5 ship can barely do warp 5 for any length of time. It took three seasons for the NX-02 to show up. It's hard to compare Starfleet then with what Starfleet would become. It's not just a matter of scale, their roles are much better defined. They also have vital experience as explorers facing the unknown to pass on to cadets. In Archer's day it was largely theoretical what they'd encounter beyond the few colonies they maintained, and over reliance on the parts of their database the Vulcans were willing to share, which it turns out had a lot of glaring assumptions of things they refused to believe existed and also tried to shape what they felt humanity should be focused on. The actual exploration part, it turns out, wasn't something the Vulcans are keen on. They do probes and long range scanning. Humans like to put boots on the ground and, if at all possible, stick their dick in the locals.

>>94685074
yea. its just the trend of increasing complexity. captain kirk couldn't even serve as ensign on the D, its just too far beyond. and archer, he couldn't even BE in starfleet of tng's time.

>>94685141
I forget, did Scotty prove himself worthwhile in the end in that one episode of TNG he showed up in? All I really remember is Geordi getting tetchy at Scotty for trying to perform some task that was routine in Scotty's day that the advance of technology had not only made unnecessary but counterproductive by Geordi's time.

>>94669796
I'm honestly surprised Paramount had the guts to do that.

>>94685074
Weren't there more Warp 4 capable ships in UESPA?

>>94685141
Kirk might find it a tad more uncomfortable for his tastes due to his brand of cowboy diplomacy and "fuck the Prime Directive, I've got the moral highground, Admiral Obi-Wan!" perhaps not being so readily tolerated. Hard to say, because Starfleet can still be ridiculously understanding at times insofar as you still did something they wanted and there's no political fallout. Picard did a few times but definitely Sisko got away with ignoring direct orders. Not evacuating the station and letting The Circle (and Cardassians) claim the wormhole, going on a rescue mission that allowed them to note the fate of the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar fleet. Janeway gets a pass because of her extreme circumstances and not having to run things by Starfleet, but even then we call her Insaneway for a reason.

Archer, though, has become a meme that he's not fit to serve as a captain even in his own era, let alone anyone else's. Sure he was taking the first steps on the long road from there to here, but he stepped in a lot of shit along the way, and I don't mean just what Porthos was leaving on the deck plating.

>>94685544
I'm still trying to figure out why the third JJ Trek made a big deal out of Idris Elba as an ex-Mako captaining the first warp 4 vessel when that makes zero sense for the timeline. I guess he got a hand-me-down ship instead of a new warp 5 or beyond (har har) vessel. Makes you wonder who he pissed off. Also how his Prime Universe counterpart is doing since he should still have become Krall due to the point of divergence being the Kelvin incident.

>>94685716
This gets a bit weird. Per m-a:

>Regarding the vessel's origins, Dylan Highsmith said, "If you want the official explanation on the Franklin and its warp factor: it was a MACO ship (or a United Earth Starfleet ship that housed MACO personnel at times) that predates the NX-01. When the UFP Starfleet is formed, MACO was disbanded and the ship was reclassified as a Starfleet ship [with the 'USS' identifier]. The ship is then 'lost' in the early 2160s. It was important to everyone that the ship, like Edison, predate the Federation; that thematically, the ship mirrored an earlier time in history and served as a bridge in design between then and the NX-01. Doug and Simon may have worked up something [on an official launch date], but if they did it never made it to script or screen. Either way it predates the NX-01, and was reclassified after the UFP is formed."

So MACO had their own ships! First I'd heard of it, but it does make a certain sense given the MACO were part of the United Earth military. It makes sense that they'd use their own ships for defense/offense/troop transport. Starfleet was still the exploration wing, largely.

>>94685544
I just remember how few vessels Earth managed to pull together to defend Earth after the Xindi attacked. I'm also reminded of the episode with the Nausicans attacking the Fortunate. If United Earth was fielding its own military they still weren't doing much if anything to secure their own shipping routes.

>>94685772
Did they have subspace communications in ENT, or were they using com torpedoes for long-range messaging? Part of it might had been very well due to the fact individual fleets were scattered across United Earth's holdings and would only figure out what happened weeks after.

>>94685772
because of how retardedly egregious they fucked with canon you have to take ent and smoosh it to make it fit with tos +, and kelvin verse has to be entirely its own alternate dimension, like the mirror univoerse. because even before the timey wimey shit, the tech is so different and advanced it has to be considered some entire reality accidently assfucked into existence as a aside effect of the timey wimey bullshit. some kind of temporal paradox kaboom exploding back and forwards through the timeline splitting the whole thing off into its own entire universe.

you really have to throw kelvin into the bin or it just wrecks all of trek.

>>94685851
basically. they were shitting out lines of comm buoys everywhere they went.

>>94685851
>Did they have subspace communications in ENT
They used long range comm buoys as relays to keep in touch with Earth (except when they went to the Delphic Expanse because the barrier disrupted thier comms). The episode with the weird ayys who bad touched their crew and forced them to install phase cannons involved these. The ayys blew up the buoys forcing them to have to launch new ones.

>>94685716
The Loracus system where the Franklin disappeared is ~90ly from Earth; Enterprise has been moving "for two weeks" as of "Fight or Flight" on May 6 and "three weeks" as of the unstated date of "Strange New World". Kronos is ~90ly from Earth and - although Enterprise clearly makes it there in a couple of days in "Broken Bow" - at the NX-class speeds stated in "Broken Bow" it should take much longer to reach Kronos, a year at "thirty million kilometres a second"; 780 days at "Neptune and back in six minutes" (also descriped as warp 4.5).

The NX doesn't even formally reach warp 5 until February the following year, so, Kronos trip notwithstanding, a warp 4 ship is still impressive (given the terms of reference expressed in "Broken Bow", it seems likely that the Freedom and NX classes are produced within a very short time of one another and significant technical accomplishments in their own rights).

The problem (which is not to do with Beyond) is that warp factors are notoriously inconsistent, so the only canon measurement of warp 4 that we have is significantly faster than the only canon measurement of warp 4.5 that we have, and warp 5 is used so wildly inconsistently across ENT that it's not a good measure either. But as warp factor is generally thought of as a log scale we might assume reasonably that the Franklin (and other warp 4 ships) did what the larger and more resource-intensive warp 5 ships did, only slower and with less glory.

Giving Edison/Krall the less impressive ship is a quiet way of justifying his anger at Starfleet; he's the kind of guy who gets pissed off at that stuff. In Edison's position, Archer might have become 'Krall'.

>>94685884
>kelvin verse has to be entirely its own alternate dimension
Kelvin being its own universe is at least baked in. The excuse for why pre-Kelvin Incident moments can be divergent, however, is oddly enough thanks to ENT. Temporal War is basically the new "A wizard did it" for Trek.

>>94685916
warp scale and time / distances can be laid entirely NOT on 'inconsistent warp factors' etc, but instead, the fault lies entirely upon fucktarded writers and trek not having a 'trek bible' after roddenberry got older and eventually pushed out and then died.

>>94685946
>and trek not having a 'trek bible' after roddenberry got older and eventually pushed out and then died
Not even that, since TOS ran on "speed of plot" as much as the other shows did. Gene was spitballing as much everyone else did, because the minutia of the tech wasn't important to him.

>>94685946
>>94686094
My favorite of the warp speed inconsistencies is the VOY episode where they travel 0.6 lightyears in less than 5 seconds.

At warp 7.

This would have made the 70,000 lightyear journey back to Earth take... less than a week. 6.75 days at most.

At warp 7.

>>94686750
When the Enterprise-D travels "seven thousand light years" in "Q Who?", Data gives the travel time back as

>At maximum warp, in two years, seven months, three days, eighteen hours we would reach Starbase one eight five.

giving a 28 year trip for 75000ly; the Intrepid is notably faster than the Galaxy, with a higher sustainable cruising speed

(this is better than Data's estimate of subspace radio speeds, which apparently no longer require relay stations even though the Federation still uses manned relay stations, when trapped in M-33 of "fifty-one years, ten months nine weeks, sixteen days" to cross "two million seven hundred thousand light years" and LaForge's estimate of "over three hundred years" to make that return journey in the Enterprise-D; Data we can explain as a software glitch when dealing with very large numbers verbally, but at the speeds Geordi proposes the Enterprise-D could have made Voyager's trip in 8 years; it's possible that despite having a lower top speed, a Galaxy class can maintain it for longer, though this is not consistent with the stated cruising speeds of the Galaxy/Intrepid classes or on-screen evidence of the Galaxy at maximum warp)

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>>94686881
My understanding is that by TNG their tech has reached the point where the relay for comms could be much wider spaced. Communication arrays are much more powerful and penetrate deeper into subspace to travel further, or technobabble to that effect. However it's noted that communicating with Cestus III which is on the opposite end of the Federation from DS9 a subspace message would still take 2 weeks.

The most famous TNG era array is probably the Hirogen's given the amount of territory it spans. It's weird, when I watched VOY I never really considered it was really THEIR tech. I figured it was just another kind of trophy, as in something they laid claim to. I suppose this is because it's considered very old, and yet only recently have they become so widespread that it threatens the integrity of their species. Thus while they might have an interest in maintaining communication to the rest of their species, I'm not sure it's really born out since they seem to have lost all interest in social cohesion. They just keep expanding to hunt new species, acquire new and exotic trophies. They're like Elmer Fudd levels of huntistic. And when you consider the degree of sophistication of building such arrays, it seems odd that the hunters would put the time and resources into building a new node. Still that doesn't necessarily preclude it being their technology. It's something that struck me while watching the series. At least I'm not the only one. I'm seeing that memory-alpha notes that it's not necessarily firm who built it. Janeway calls it an archaeological puzzle and while one Hirogen claimed it was their technology, they'd say that anyway if they just claimed it as a trophy. I mean they own it, therefore it's their technology. But a reference book does give them credit for building it. Please don't mind my trektism, I just like the Hirogen. Dudes don't even use shields, just pure armor, and can hunt on the neutronium surface of a collapsed star. They're nuts!

>>94685447
Him and Geordi had to save the Enterprise by quick fixing up Scotty's old ship. Of course Scotty knew the old systems and was able to fix something Geordi wouldn't have.
Scotty was also much more willing to push some components beyond their safety ratings because he knew what they could actually handle rather than just always staying within the safety buffer on the manual.

>>94685682
In a cynical reading, the Prime Directive is sort of a trap. Basically any captain that's doing anything at the edges of Federation space is going to violate it at some point (remember it also applies to warp species not just prewarp). So, essentially Starfleet has built in dirt on every notable captain that they can pull out or hang over their head at a moments notice. If the captain isn't a problem, they don't, but if politics ever require quickly pushing them out it's a violation that's ready to go.

>>94669318
It is always nice to remind the enlightened atheists of the fandom that the TOS crew was a bunch of Christchuds and they even found a planet of aliens that were too.

>>94686881
my favorite is still probably the USS Valiant "circumnavigating" the Federation in three months, a Federation already described as "spread across 8000 light years" which, while Picard doesn't express it as area or volume or diameter, still indicates a vast space to traverse in three months; if taken literally as diameter, it would mean Voyager could make it home in under two and a half years, but if taken literally as volume then, as a sphere, its circumference would be as little as 78 light years, which is clearly wrong since in "Tin Man" the Vega probe has explored just 23 parsecs beyond the Federation's furthest manned explorations and in any case the diameter of that sphere would be a mere 25ly, trivial when Vulcan and Earth are separated by 16ly, so Picard probably does mean some kind of diameter or maximum extent on an axis

it's mad enough as a plan isolation that you've got to figure it's one of those crazed admiral schemes gone wrong, particularly given the hand-picked crew of morons, but yeah per >>94687043 DS9 does say that the Federation from Bajor to Cestus III (which is not even its full extent) must be around 12 weeks at maximum warp for a Galaxy class per "Where No-one Has Gone Before" unless relays significantly increase subspace transmission speeds (interestingly it's only 8 weeks at maximum warp for the Xhosa)

>>94687231
I think a cynical approach is largely warranted. I hate to say it, but Starfleet, as LD said, has a policy of SOME intervention. The some is the magic word. When Sisko played loose with his orders of having O'Brien remove every scrap of Federation tech from DS9 as an excuse for some of his people (minus their uniforms) to remain behind, buying time for Kira and Dax to get the evidence of Cardassian involvement to the Provisional Government? Well the Cardassians lost and were humiliated, Starfleet kept the wormhole, and the Provisional Government won so technically owed them a favor (but I seriously doubt they every stopped being a constant PITA). Everything worked out, except for the Cardies, so the admiralty just let it slide. Trying to save Odo and Garak was breaking orders but they brought back valuable intel (the Founders had moved their homeworld, the joint fleet failed, and they saw some of what the Dominion could muster), and they didn't suffer any casualties. In all it was a boon for Starfleet, but as the admiral said next time Sisko will either get reprimanded or promoted, and either way he'd be in a lot of trouble. The PD is one of those things where you can get away with it if you can justify it, and the consequences aren't too terrible. The proto-vulcans? It's true that Picard revealed himself to the Mintakans but this was to clean up existing cultural contamination. It was an isolated group who, despite what they learned, agreed that they had to develop on their own path. Not the worst. You can see why Starfleet hushed it up, though. Data's pen pal? They answered a cry for help and saved a world, but the people will never know.

Honestly it's good Starfleet makes allowances and takes circumstances into account, but ultimately? If shit goes bad they will throw the book at you. Breaking the rules works when it works. If you fail they have plausible deniability. You were breaking the rules. You pay the price. Their hands are clean.

>>94687411
The usual excuse I see for circumnavigating the Federation is that it's a misnomer. Federation space isn't a sphere, it's very irregularly shaped. SO the part they were circumnavigating, based on where they ran into trouble, was likely a little nubbin along the Cardassian border, like a big ol' Feddie cock poking towards Cardassia Prime. This makes some sense if they were doing so for security purposes. A tour of the extreme frontier with a not very friendly people. Dominion War breaks out in earnest, they get caught by a Cardassian nutshot right in the nub.

>>94687562
It's also just how people speak. Yes, you can unambiguously circumnavigate the globe, but if someone said they were going to "circumnavigate the United States", you might imagine they'd hit up Seattle, San Diego, Miami, and New York, not that they'd literally follow the coastlines and borders. You hit the major players/worlds, not the weird colonies and listening posts.

>>94685716
Blame Simon Pegg

>>94687784
I don't have much of a problem with it being the first warp 4 ship. Sure, why not. The explanation which was someone copied from the wiki (not sure of the original source) makes enough sense. I do have a problem with it somehow arriving in time and lasting longer than 2 seconds in a fight that saw the Enterprise chewed up and spat out. Also the "let's play loud music and cause the enemy to spontaneously combust!" I thought it was meant to disrupt them, not set their auto-destruct. I guess they really don't like the Beastie Boys.

>>94687918
I always read that scene as "the drones are flying in such tight formation that the disruption is causing them to crash into each other and explode"

>>94687918
I really wanted to like those movies but at a certain point you have to admit that showing up killing your enemy by blasting your ghetto blaster loud just isn't star trek.

>>94685923
Not even just the TCW. Just think of every time a Trek show has its crew fuck with 20th century earth. All of those interactions are changed or didn’t even happen. So so the earlier history of the Kelvin timeline might have similarities but it’s certainly not the same.

>>94688164
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Swarm_(episode)
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Best_of_Both_Worlds,_Part_II_(episode)

>>94688164
Ayys being put down by something humans consider mundane and innocuous is one of the oldest science fiction tropes there is. The PRESENTATION is much more Hollywood than Roddenberry, I'll agree, clearly they worked backwards from "we need an epic action sequence with some boomer ass music the audience will recognize," but the premise is right at home in a TOS episode.

>>94688164
I mean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sDF9JvDXAA

>>94685916
To be fair, "neptune and back" could easily refer to the whole journey - accel, decel, turnaround in real time, accel, decel again - rather than a straight X distance at warp Y. But year Enterprise is fuckywucky with timescales for travel.

>>94688340
ST4 is the best ST movie and anyone who thinks different is either a pretentious pseud or a soulless husk. The probe is conceptually fantastic and solving its mystery with a time travel jaunt to the 80's to abduct whales and steal energy from nuklear wessels is unironic genius. To pretend this is equivalent to "we need an excuse to put in a kickass licensed piece of pop music for the trailers" is so dishonest it verges on gaslighting. Shame on you sir, shame.

>>94688364
and yet the probe's entire MO is to turn up blasting Enya at planets until they explode or a very specific type of whale that evolved less than 900,000 years ago and which has at least one long-isolated population in a region that doesn't allow whaling says hey no don't do that in just the right way

>>94687317
an several planets that were OG republicans and constitutional absolutists.

>>94687540
star trek is clearly not for you. its a utopian ideal where people HAVE made themselves better, they aren't the scummy fucks of today. which is why all of lower dreks has to be discarded as willfully ignorant hatefiction from anti-fans who just despise star trek and its entire ETHOS.
double for picard, prodigy, discovery and snw.

ALL the new trek is just made by jealous hateful shitheads who cannotstand an IP being made of ideas, ideals, and characters who ARE actually better than us.

all the nu trek is made by spiteful assholes who want to drag the IP and characters down into the mud and muck and shit all over them.

>>94685716
the kelvin incident isn't the point of divergence. its the epicentre of the temporal shockwave that detonated kelvin-verse off into its own AU. since even before the kelvin incident, THAT universe has wildly diverged already. its all time paradox-y

>>94690665
What a crazy thing to say when TNG is absolutely nightmarish from start to finish and TOS has a nonstop show of corruption.

>>94690665
Oh, so you wanted the admiralty to have a zero tolerance policy on PD violations that don't allow for exceptional circumstances where it's okay to bend the rules to save primitive people? Your concept of utopia fucking sucks and you should feel bad.

>>94690713
>>94690731

lol. whatever. hater. just admit you despise star trek and have done.

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>>94690766

>>94690777
yep. that's it. post the most obscene inversion of Cap ever to prove MY point. you are an anti-fan who insists NO ONE can have NICE things. because YOU demand everything be a crapsack world of shit.

>>94690711
You wish. It ruined everything by killing Kirk's dad but also the Kelvn black box had sensor logs that let them study the future tech so the Enterprise now had stupid amounts of pew pew laser bolts and also the engine room is a brewery now, you're welcome, Scotty. Also we heard you like flip communicators, well good news the phasers are flippy too, now. Enjoy.

>>94690794
not to mention every ship is a tardis now with approximately 70 million miles of turbolift tubes.

>>94638174
Star Trek is basically a group of xenophobic useless people that use their power to exploit.

>>94690858
oh i get it. you're an insane person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgOZFny7F50&t=0s

the first Star Trek we have received in YEARS

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>>94690912
UHHHH sweaty, the jury has ruled on *that* one

>>94691003
I don't know who that is, but they're right.

>>94690912
Grim

>>94691041
>>94691003
wronger than two boys fucking on the steps of st peters during mass.

you just hate star trek. and so do they.

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>>94691218
>t. fanwanking slopcoomer NPConsoomer

>>94690847
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZYRv-L8GuY

>>94690912
"Yor" there is from DIS too, which is nice; he starts out in the JJVerse's TNG era, crosses over to the Prime TOS era to retrieve "Spock's Kirk" (a distinction with meaning even if Spock had become close to the JJKirk) and gives them time to say goodbye (these events must occur shortly before the first scene of Star Trek Beyond). Notably, Yor doesn't cross back into that timeline with Kirk (as he's later used by Daniels/Kovich as an example of what will happen to Mirror Georgiou if she stays in the Prime 3200s, and by extension as proof that those 3200s are part of the same universe Discovery originated in, which per the events of SNW "Those Old Scientists" included both the familiar Cerritos crew and portions of the original NX class Enterprise). This likely means that *Kirk* doesn't cross back into the Prime universe either - it's a one-way trip. He goes to the JJverse and stays with Spock; he could show up, Generations-style, in the next JJverse movie or (more likely, if they can clear everybody working together) in an animated Short Trek with the JJverse crew. Which means that the Kirk who was rescued from the Nexus by Prime Picard was not Prime Kirk, but an echo of Prime Kirk which was trapped in the Nexus, in effect a very special transporter clone.

It's a lot of fun for a short about pathos and very well crafted on all fronts.

>>94691370
those words don't mean what you think they mean CBS tard. stop drinking the paramount coolaid. it has fucking cyanide in it, dumbass.

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>>94692311
>t. Butthurt maldingpilled seethecel

>>94691370
don't listen to >>94692311
Cyanide is good for you

>>94690665
>which is why all of lower dreks has to be discarded as willfully ignorant hatefiction
Weird, my watching of Lower Decks makes it seem like the show that has gone the most out of its way to show that the Federation is fundamentally a force for good in the universe.

>>94692473
it singlehandedly resulted in a power shift in ferengi and Orion politics toward glasnost with federation

>>94691003
This guy loves Discovery and says Lower Decks isnt good and wishes it was more like Deadpool btw

>>94692473
Don't bother replying to someone who obviously hasn't watched the shows he supposedly likes, let alone the ones he doesn't.

>>94692092
thinking about Yor some more

there's no reason he can't be Future Guy, manipulating the ENT timeline during the TCW because the JJverse is already experimenting with timeships by the mid 2300s

that actually feels weirdly good

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>>94692772
It's funny how a "Yor: Hunter from the Future" reference has become crucial to canon.

>>94692772
Not to stoke the argument over cynicism versus optimism, but is there anything more cynical than Archer giving the big speech at the founding of the Federation only to become Future Guy trying to disrupt everything? What the hell happens to him that he becomes so deadset against his own mission, creating a vast proxy army to torment his past self and his own crew? And yet if any of the main captains is going to snap, the odds are heavily skewed in his direction. Janeway might make some sense here since her bending time backwards and reaming it out while Captain Braxton weeps is thematically fitting, and you could imagine a version of her that becomes so twisted up by the idea of getting her crew home she realizes if there is no Federation then they never get lost in the first place. The problem is she'd be too damn effective. No Suliban catspaws, just her riding a temporal doomsday device like Slim Pickens on the bomb as she falls in the heart of the galaxy and unravels all creations. No half measures with Insaneway.

>>94693158
>No Suliban catspaws, just her riding a temporal doomsday device like Slim Pickens on the bomb as she falls in the heart of the galaxy and unravels all creations. No half measures with Insaneway.
It would be like this, except that the one on the bomb would be an alternate timeline janeway or a hologram janeway, the real Janeway will always be fine. Like Cher.

>>94693138
>Not called "Days of Yor"

>>94693158
Personally I've always assumed Future Guy was a Romulan. It makes a lot of sense given the timeframe of ENT plus it would help explain why the Romulans already have cloaking tech, a hundred years early.

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>>94693451
Personally I suspect Future Guy is a time traveling universe hopping Kurtzman trying to ruin Star Trek from within but unraveling the very foundations, getting rid of everything that makes it special and turning it into a generic scifi setting.

It makes a surprising amount of sense.

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>>94693158
Here's one I've never heard floated: What if Future Guy is Trip?
He gets killed pointlessly, losing everything and becoming less than a footnote in history. I'm sure a version of him that sees that can be turned evil

actually, yes. >>94692390 is correct.
eat all the cyanide>>94692389. enjoy your cyanide smoothies

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>>94693829
His legend lives on - as a series of tubes!

>>94692473
no. Lower Drek's federation is a hodgepodge of total fucking retards. selfish, stupid, short sighted morons abusing power, position for their own gains. in ACTUAL star trek, a starbase 80 wouldn't happen.

not to mention, Lower Drek's starfleet are giant fucking neurotic lunatics who would ONLY be able to be in REAL trek asylum's. they're just so dangerously delusional from objective reality that in REAL Trek they'd live in an asylum.

>>94693845
But then how do we explain this bit of time fucker!?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqa2STJXvXE

>>94692731
eat all the shit, fucker. I seen all of tOS, most of animated tOS. all the movies, voy, tng and ds9.

NU trek just cannot compare, not even.

>>94693857
>in ACTUAL star trek, a starbase 80 wouldn't happen.
Didn't the Federation fuck up a colony so bad that it had rape gangs wandering around?

>>94693867
Saar you must understand they were doing the needful

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>>94693845
My chief engineer is...a series of tubes?

>>94693867
blame the B's for that shit. all of TNG they kept trying to slide in grimdarkness shit. everyone agrees tasha yar's backstory is utterly bullshit nonsense from writers who hate trek. everyone says rapegang planet is just fucking retarded story writing. next you'll nitpick shit like gangster planet from tOS or western planet from ENT.

parts of trek fall down and make for bad trek.

but ALL of nu trek is clearly, and obviously made entirely by spiteful, hating assholes you just despise trek as an IP and ideal. nu trek clearly comes from people who despise the very notion that the future could hold anything GOOD ever. the humans might EVER improve themselves and BE better people, as a species. so they HAVE to drag it down and shit it up.

>>94693867
Turkana did that itself when it told the Federation to pack up and GTFO. You have to understand, it is Federation policy to respect the duly recognized government of a world, even if it is the Council of Rape and Rape Related Services. True they weren't exactly elected into power, but in a rapeocracy the winner isn't the one with the most votes but the one who tags the most holes. The Federation Council's hands, like many of the citizens left behind, were tied.

>>94693902
I mean would that really be any weirder than the time he got himself knocked up? Or tied to Malcolm in a Risan basement without his uniform or wallet?

>>94693904
>gangster planet from tOS or western planet from ENT

Those actually made sense (or enough sense as Trek goes). The explanations for both were passable. Tasha Yar's grimdark backstory was so over the top I actually laugh at the flashback of it. Just absurdity.

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>>94693920
>the time he got himself knocked up
You know what they say: No glove, no love

>>94693867
ayup and their dilithium mining colonies are always old west whoretowns or literal slave mines

>>94693912
which is an example of a part of trek falling down. because in a sane and logical federation, that would never happen, the federation would have moved in troops to protect its citizens and so on. the whole situation would never happen. its just silly. the utopian ideal of the federation and starfleet wouldn't allow it to happen.

even if the federation council got its knickers in a twist being all touchy feely hands off muh laws, muh diplomacy...
at least a fleet's worth of ship's would have 'accidentally' found themselves wandering off course, into orbit over the planet, desperately needing "shore leave" while 'maintenance' goes on aboard ship.

>>94693921
exactly! tasha yar rape planet just is so NOT trek you have to discount it out of hand.
but trying to use rape planet as an example of why nu trek is evil vile shit that is made by cunts who hate real trek is a totally egregious strawman

>>94693950
Oh I'm a different anon than has been arguing. But yes, I do hate when people who defend nu Trek cherry pick certain elements from old Trek to justify their bad taste. "Oh classic Trek show had [one kind of weird and probably not well liked episode] and you like that show, so the nutrek show that has 1000x more of that element is good or you're a hypocrite."
It's tiresome. It's people trying to browbeat others into liking something as if you can just plug in a formula. I believe some people like SNW and Lower Decks- you may or may not like them but there is at least arguable appeal. Anyone would claims to like Discovery or Picard I just can't believe. Those shows are the peak of "we got the rights to the thing you love and we're going to break it and force you to like it."

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>>94693904
>blame the B's for that shit
It was established in Season 1, which is the season of Star Trek that Roddenberry had the most control over. It wouldn't have been there if Roddenberry wasn't okay with it. Braga wasn't even part of TNG yet and Berman was merely one of several producers.

>everyone agrees tasha yar's backstory is utterly bullshit nonsense from writers who hate trek
It was established in TNG S1E3 "The Naked Now", which was written by D.C. Fontana, who'd been writing episodes of Trek since the Original Series and whose credits include classic episodes like "This Side of Paradise", "Journey to Babel", and "The Enterprise Incident" in TOS.

Who do you think you're fooling here, exactly?

>everyone says rapegang planet is just fucking retarded story writing
Sure, but it's canon. It is canon that the Federation fucked up a colony so badly that it descended into anarchy and roving rape gangs. Next to that, Starbase 80 doesn't seem so bad.

>next you'll nitpick shit like gangster planet from tOS
What? No. The Iotians weren't part of the Federation, were contacted pre-Federation and pre-Prime Directive, and Kirk's entire reason for going there is to make sure any cultural damage caused by the ECS Horizon is repaired, and he accomplishes that goal. The screwup had nothing to do with the Federation, while the solution was pretty good given the circumstances; honestly the episode could have been nearly line-for-line repurposed as a Lower Decks episode and fit in perfectly.

Also it's legit my favorite TOS episode.
Also-also I wish that more episodes played with the idea that a ship's phasers can be set to stun just like the handheld ones can be.

>>94693941
Look, anon, the people clearly wanted the rape. You didn't hear them begging for help through their official cadre issued civil defense ballgags, did you? Even the universal translator can't prase, "MWWA-WHHM-MUHHR-FFFKR." Even Hoshi's talented tongue couldn't! The simple yet absolute fact of the matter is that every member of the Federation must be free to stay or leave as they choose. If they do not, if the Federation instead acts to pacify and force a world to remain, then they betray everything they stand for and become no better than the Klingons.

No sir, no ridges on these foreheads! Some bumps, at least. Some ridged noses here and there. The occasional antennae. Spots that go all the way down. But that's all!

>>94693982
and yet no matter how many times you present a cogent argument of WHY nu Trek is a completely different thing, they will never cease demanding you accept and like it. they insist you can't actually hate it and still be a trek fan.

>>94693988
>written by D.C. Fontana
Just a side point, but I'm not sure how much I'd blame her for season 1 of Trek. She makes it clear that the Roddenberry process is that a script is handed down a line of people, and once it leaves your hot little hands that's basically the end of your influence on the plot. He's also known for sticking in the vast majority of sexualized content. Truly Our Guy™.

>>94693997
except rape is a crime. as is murder etc. so of course the federation would move in to secure its own planet

>>94694012
>Just a side point, but I'm not sure how much I'd blame her for season 1 of Trek
I'm not blaming her at all. I'm pointing out that she's got a long history of writing for Trek going all the way back to the original series. She clearly did not hate Trek despite Anon's claims.

>>94693988
>honestly the episode could have been nearly line-for-line repurposed as a Lower Decks episode and fit in perfectly.
lol you're totally right.
Also, christ, so many problems could be solved by a ship's phaser set to stun.

hell, rape planet wouldn't even actually happen. because the federations humans actually ARE better, they're beyond such things.

I just want to point out Tasha says she comes from "A rape planet". Not "the rape planet".

Apparently rape planets were so common they were their own category.

>>94693982
>Anyone would claims to like Discovery or Picard I just can't believe.
My mom loves Discovery, and she didn't even like TNG until 4 or 5 years ago, she used to say that it wasn't really Star Trek. You're just really up your own ass here, you need to get out more and listen to more points of view.

>>94694024
>rape planet wouldn't even actually happen
Except it did. It's canon that it did. It's mentioned in multiple episodes including a frist-season episode in a script written by a seasoned TOS writer and personally approved of by Gene Roddenberry himself.

No matter how stupid it is, it's canon.
No matter how wrong it seems, it's canon.
No matter how much you hate it, it's canon.

Which means that every time you bring up how perfect the Federation is and thus Starbase 80 could never happen, I'm gonna bring up Turkana and remind you that it DID happen and all your salty tears won't change that fact. So what makes you think that Starbase 80 couldn't also happen?

>>94694022
except wide dispersal area effect heavy stun from the ship's phasers would effectively turn the targets hit into braindead. such heavy stun has long term, if not permanent effects. there's a reason why we see starfleeters using stun settings as low as possible. and then moving up to heavier stun settings if the lighter options prove ineffective. remember, the energy beam is dumping particles into a sentient being of sufficient levels to disrupt the central nervous systems. you start turning that up and even on "STUN" you start getting lethal effects. the phaser is still a weapon. its just less-than-lethal* TM.

>>94694041
Nah

>>94694043
bad faith, obvious strawman.

no. lower decks, picard, prodigy, SNW and disco are clearly just NOT trek.

>>94694048
>except wide dispersal area effect heavy stun from the ship's phasers would effectively turn the targets hit into braindead
Except no it wouldn't, because it didn't when it was used.

>>94694043
actually it was Turkana IV

we aren't allowed to talk about what happened on Turkanas I-III, because it's actionable

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>>94694056
I gots me a title card says different.

>>94694064
I bet you think New Doctor Who is Doctor Who too. I bet you think daniel craig james bond is james bond still. i bet you think disney star wars is still star wars.

Of course Starbase 80 would happen, it's Starfleet's greatest physical allegory for any fuck-up that figures it out.
It's a starbase full of old misbehaving tech that doesn't work properly, and there's a ton of weird goofy problems with it, but it still does its job and isn't just straight up decommissioned or replaced because Starfleet still believes it can be fixed if you put in the time and effort to it. That's why it's the last resort for fuckups, because it's Starfleet telling them that, yeah, you have a bunch of weird goofy problems and are misbehaving, but Starfleet isn't kicking you out yet because it still believes you can be fixed if you put the effort into it.
You could not get a more "Trek" disciplinary facility. Sure if you actually get someone killed then you go to a New Zealand penal colony, but for everyone else going to Starbase 80 is far more productive than getting Tuvok to go boot camp on your ass.

>>94694057
>>94694048
It's something a modern character might say to explain why modern phasers can't stun. Also later scientists might have determined that Kirk was putting the Icotians in greater risk than he realized (he was playing with cutting-edge technology) and that might be why they stopped doing shipstuns in the first place. For all we know half of them got brain cancer 10 years later. But still it would be really cool to see the federation having some sort of weapon of mass nonlethality and using it whenever smallfries try to take hostages.

>>94694017
Look, man, you can't judge people by how they choose to live. It's a big galaxy with all kinds of different aliens, only most of which look roughly indistinguishable from humanity. Some weirdos want to wander off and live in a luddite society and refuse basic healthcare like waving a light over a wound to cure simple infections, that's their biz. If they want to live the frontier experience, huddling with their children for warmth until they rediscover how to make fire, that's fine too. If they're a genetically engineered masterpiece society that can't handle the odd natural disaster, disease, or industrial accident wiping out a portion of their society? That's okay too.

Turkana IV has pioneered a true marvel. The first rapeocracy and rapeconomy all in one go. Rapes for the people, by the people. A penis forced in every pot. And the most amazing thing is it's entirely consensual, because you don't like it they'll MAKE you like it!

So breathtaking. The entire Federation can learn a thing or two from these enlightened rape gangs!

>>94694073
>i bet you think disney star wars is still star wars.
I think that nothing Disney has done yet has been worse than the Yuuzhan Vong, so I still prefer Disney canon to the old EU.

>I bet you think
What I think is that your fan fiction isn't canon. I've got no problem with fan fiction in principle, I've written fan fiction myself for numerous franchises for over 25 years now, ever since I was a little kid who liked Animorphs. But I never once had the arrogance to say, "my fan fiction trumps the actual franchise", unlike you.

>>94693941
>>94693941
you're going to tell the Bynars and the Evora that they have to send peacekeepers to *a* rape planet, which is just one of a whole category of planets in the Federation, in order to secure it against a hostile domestic populace who just really enjoy raping stuff and will happily rape Bynars and Evora?

oh wait wait you thought the VULCANS and the ANDORIANS were going to do it because they have historical combat capabilities? you're introducing racial profiling and a caste system into utopia in order to conceal the rape planet problem that's baked into the weak federal government system? you're going to go full Leyton on Turkana IV, a planet which only two people have ever left with regrets, and send in the racially charged troops to control the breakdown of civil order with a military junta? and it's not like you can send majority humans to police a majority human colony, how's THAT going to play out on Risa? you'll make humans look like rapists and really bed in that racial profiling shit you were trying to introduce

face it anon, you just cannot into international diplomacy

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>>94694098
>Yuuzhan Vong

ugh don't remind me

did you know Yuuzhan Vong is Yuuzhan Vong for huge horse dong?

>>94694101
>international diplomacy
>multiplanet, multicivilisational polity's INTERNAL security
you can only pick one, dumbass.

>>94694024
have you ever sat down and read about TOS Kirk's backstory? because uh I really don't think that you have

>>94694117
Journey to Babel is non-canon now? what?

>>94694119
i watched it. conscience of the king. a govenor on a fringe in the frontier wild wild west did A bad thing.

you are doing exactly what you fucking NuTrek drug pushers always do. that we just got done with lampooning you for. NITPICKING parts of Real trek, in order to pretend its somehow a defence of ALL of NuTrek being suckass moronic.

>>94694121
journey to babel is a meeting bewtween member world civilisations. its entirely moot to the point you have yet to actually make. keep swinging wide.

It's worth noting that the federation has very complicated ideas about the sovereignty of its colonies.

>>94694137
But I'm not discussing all of NuTrek, I'm talking specifically about Starbase 80 and how it's perfectly viable for it to exist given waht we know of the Federation, and how Lower Decks is still overall one of the most Federation-positive Trek shows in years.

I mean, let's not forget that even if the first episode - arguably Lower Deck's worst episode - we see Mariner is "breaking the rules" by delivering farming equipment to local farmers, and not even hyper-advanced farming equipment, just the stuff that the farmers would be given anyway but without having to wait for it to go through red tape, with the intention of improving those farmers' lives now.