>>94745240
Want to contribute to the thread but don't know where to start? Use this table.
>1. Make a spell
>2. Make a monster
>3, Make a dungeon special
>4 Make a wilderness location
>5. Make an urban set piece
>6. Make a magic item
>7. Make a class, race, or race-as-class
>8, Make a 4-10 room lair.
>9. Make a trap
>10. Roll 2D10 and combine

>>94745240
Nothing.

And I don't mean that to say that my OSR system of choice isn't good - but that I use my OSR system of choice as an avenue to play TSR D&D without paying WotC for it.

System of choice: OSE - but with a solid dose of Iron Falcon, as I've been tinkering with 0e a fair bit lately.

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>2 years ago a PC got Void'd during a session I was guest DMing
>his body was then fed to merrow who were threatening the Party's boat by the panicked captain while they were dungeon-delving
>1 year ago a friendly neighborhood devil just gave the party that PC's soul stuck in a small marble, and a way to reach him should they need his help in this predicament
>this Saturday, the devil popped once again, mainly as set dressing, didn't really do anything but heckle the party and loudly advise them to make dumb decisions while in a liminal realm
>party flips out and decides to attempt multiple dispels and attacks, fortunately he wasn't serious and didn't kill anybody before Death told everybody to calm the fuck down
>at least one party member has stated he wants the destruction of this devil
I guess I've accidentally made a BBEG lol

>>94743797
>cag fags insist that adnd is the best way to play the game
>look at adnd combat rules
>It's more complex than fucking dogshit ass 4e

Well, first off please don't associate FAG with CAG. The second one are bunch of pretentious tryhards.
That being said, it's your own fault for not starting with BX.

>>94745604
>>94745604
>Void'd PC
lol
>then I destroyed his body off screen
Kind of a dick move
>Year later, return his soul
Redemption for the DM?

>>94745606
or od&d

>>94745604
>demonic_soyjak.png

>>94745696
For me I think it should go bx>odd>1eAdv

>>94745650
>>94745697
I imagined the guest DM making this jak face the whole time, exulted over his perceived victory.

>>94744914
>there is often barely a difference either way
Thanks for sharing. Do notice that Weapon Speed Factors go up to 13, though. There is a substantial difference if you compare a dagger or tooth/claw to a 2H sword.

That guy who posts book screenshots in inverted colors, is probably one of the most abrasive posters we have that isn't a namefag

>>94745240
>TQ
Swords and Wizardry has the best take on Fighters I think. The attack per level against enemies of one hit die or less gives them more of a class identity and niche than other systems. I also really like that Fighters can add their STR modifiers to ranged attacks as it represents a buff fighter being able to use a bow with a higher draw weight.

I prefer the B/X and OSE version of race-as-class to S&W's weird racial multi-classing, though.

>>94746208
>The attack per level against enemies of one hit die or less
That's OD&D, not Swords & Wizardry.

>Fighters can add their STR modifiers to ranged attacks
Also not from S&W.

>>94746240
Swords and Wizardry is a re-write of OD&D with a few changes.

>>94746208
>>94746240
>>94746288
There are like 8 different S&Ws

>>94746382
I'm referring to the Complete:Revised Edition. I don't personally know anyone that plays other editions.

>>94746240
Holy shit dude do you just go around saying ignorant nonsense like this all of the time?

are there any drawfags who can give me tips for making art in the osr style?

players found a town that had been submerged under dirt for 3000 years but had been recently unearthed during an earthquake only to find the population believes it has been roughly a day spent under the rubble, are starving, their kingdom is long lost, nothing of the world is familiar to them.
Also they found a giant killer bee hive the size of a large greenhouse and set it aflame by throwing lamp oil on it, using torches to make the bees hazy near them, and then throwing them on the hive as soon as it was oiled up.
Necromancer nearly died to the queen bee but rolled a 20 on his save so he only went unconscious from damage. they burnt down that entire hive and i really played up the images of effectively an organic assembly line full of half formed larvae being fried to a crisp. they now have the loyalty of the ancient people.

>>94746653
It's realistically just gitting gud with pen and ink. Watch some tutorials for comic inking and then draw the most 1980s fantasy characters that you can think of. It's gotta be traditionally done, though, doing it digitally doesn't let you put your SOVL into it and you loose some of the little imperfections that give it character.

>>94746608
Nothing ignorant about it, it was pointing out a fact. The TQ is
>What does your OSR system of choice do differently or, iyho, better than any of the others?
And it's not different in any regard.

>>94746992
Except it's not doing those things "differently" at all, it does them the exact same as ODD

>>94747025
So you're agreeing with him?

Are there any fully written up OSR playthoughs anywhere?
I'm thinking of doing one using Homebrewery & want to see how others write things up.

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>>94746992
>>94747025
It's not different because it's a re-write of ODnD. Pic related explains it pretty well in the intro of the book. Honestly I don't think it's really something worth arguing over unless you really want to (I don't).

>>94747203
There is this http://www.peldor.com/. I am not sure if it counts as OSR as it predates the OSR movement.

>>94745240
A clarification for AD&D rules, say that a PC MU finds another MU book, uses read magic on that, would you allow the PC to prepare the spells found in that book? Or do they need to roll on the chance to learn those new spells?

>>94747409
>they need to roll on the chance to learn those new spells
This of course. And they don't get to check again for spells they've already checked for. Inability to learn a spell holds for all future versions of it you may find.

>>94747409
>>94747473
Also he needs to copy the spells he's able to learn onto HIS spell book to be able to memorise them. Another MU's book won't do.

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Has no one yet made a digital version of Green Devil Face #6?

>>94747149
>>94747252
The question is
>what does your system do "differently or better"?
His reply about s&w is neither different, nor better than odnd.

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>>94745240
My ruleset stays in the background so as to not take from the greater glory properly due to First decAde dunGeons & draGons.

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What effect does armor have of fall damage?

Would it protect you or cause greater injury?

>>94747647
Im not an rpg guy, but this is the stuff id want to try. Any ideas on a good solo book like this or just in general?

>>94746653
Put some paper over cool pictures you like and trace them. Also doodle or copy (copying is different from tracing) simple stuff without too much worry in your spare time.

>>94748032
google "how make zine"

>>94748008
None RAW, D&D does strive to model that level of realism.

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>>94748071
i appreciate the advice but i think i am past that point. that being said...
>>94746713
going traditional for accurate osr inking will definitely fuck me up. i don't think i could manage it in a reasonable timeframe

>>94748171
Give it a shot, anon. Sakura Microns are cheap and you may end up liking it. I'm primarily a digital artist, but I've been messing around with pen drawings to try to get an old DnD look and I've absolutely fallen in love with it.

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>>94748426

>>94748426
Thanks for being proactive but the problem is already solved! Gavin took my suggestion and won't be putting an OSR logo on Dolmenwood!

>Poison: Causes death (save versus poison). Even if the save succeeds, the victim is paralysed and convulsing for 1d8–1 rounds.
What the fuck

>>94745262
Scorched Handgonne- A great blackened bronze beast of .75 caliber barrel made of scorched bronze, attached on a 4 foot long piece of scorched wood. when this weapon is fired, those hit by its blast begin to vomit profusely and on a failed death save, suffer the effects of the Contagion spell. However, for every 30 days the scorched Handgonne is in the users possession, they must roll a 1d6. On a 3-in-6 chance, they lose 1d3 points of constitution. If they rid themselves of the handgun, or only have it in their possession for 10 days out of every 30, they regain constitution points at 1 point per month.

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Has anyone actually run a good "zero-to-hero" "adventurer-to-king" game where PCs started out level 1, got to domain level, and actually conquered territory hex by hex? Or is this an unattainable fantasy of game I am wasting my time pursuing? Please greentext said games in as much detail as possible. I've played B/X and I am closing in on name level with the goal of domain play but I want to know if it's been done before. B/X, ACKS, any OSR rules set.

>>94749289
No, nobody in the entire history of D&D has ever gotten to name level, everybody lied to you.

>>94747647
No.
I had a guy about 3 years ago saying he had it and was going to send a scan so I could get it to our pretty pdf-makers. Obviously, nothing came of that. That was probably the closest we've come to getting it archived.

>>94749289
Yep. Fighter and Cleric made it all the way from Level 1. They teamed up to build a combination castle-monastary and then launched a crusade to go fuck up some evil Magic User that killed two player characters and a bunch of hirelings back at level 3. I'd kinda forgotten about him since he was just supposed to be a random dungeon boss. The players decided that those characters' arcs were done afterwards and retired them as NPC The Local Lords.

>>94746129
>NOOOOOO you can't just read and share OSR material in the OSR thread of all places!
>how obnoxious people can be...

>>94748032
>good solo book like this
The 1979 DMG Appendices A, B, and C are still the unbested solo material for D&D.

>>94749941
>NPC The Local Lords.
Have they hired the party to do anything for them yet?
What is their tax policy?
How many men-at-arms in full harness do they employ?
Do they retain experienced scouts and trackers as henchmen or do they hire them ad-hoc as needed?
Have they bothered to spend a spare language proficiency to learn the otherwise unintelligible dialect of the next settlement over?
Since one of them is a Cleric, does he enforce the eypected persecution of women as witches himself, or does he delegate that task to a henchman or hireling?

>>94746049
i did check those as well, unfortunately it doesnt make a difference. at that high/slow weapon speed its already high enough that it still loses regardless. it would only matter in theory with spells with higher casting time, but those spells auto lose the initial initiative check so it bypasses the system entirely
its because there are only a certain number of legal "losing" initiative dies, because of casting times etc so the weapon speed can never really be reduced by such a great result and once its too high, extra slowness doesnt make a difference
all in all i kind of think you are better off just ignoring it entirely. taking a look at the results suggests that the system mostly works to shuffle tie odds into either outright sword or spell wins. i personally like ties so its not appealing to me now that i realise what it does

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>>94752248

>>94745240
TQ:
>What does your OSR system of choice do differently or, iyho, better than any of the others?
Since i run AD&D 1e I have access to the best of the best and can modify virtually anything to work with it on the fly.

>>94746240
And AD&D, really

>>94752266
>those spells auto lose the initial initiative check
Ah, this is where we've implemented the rule differently. The way I did it, casting time never makes the MU "lose initiative" in the algorithm's sense. So that explains both the discrepancy and your earlier remark on using WSF making weapons better than monsters.

Not sure who of us right, but here's a screenshot of one possible combo (top) and overall stats (bottom) using my interpretation of the algorithm. Happy to share the code if you want to look at it.

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>>94752266
>>94752317
>here's a screenshot
And of course.

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>FUCK ME WRONG FILE

>>94752266
>>94752317
>>94752327
Some annotations to clarify what I mean. But either way, I kinda agree with your comment:
>you are better off just ignoring it entirely
I think I'm leaning always using the "Monster rules", and use WSF to disambiguate ties between attInit and (castInit+CT) exactly like in the weapon vs weapon case.

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>>94752317
>>94752327
this is my calc system (B and D1 can be manually changed and it calcs everything downwards). i just manually calculated for each possibility
its definitely not displayed the same way as yours so it might be hard to compare directly where it differs

>>94752488
>i just manually calculated for each possibility
madlad.

I've just redone the calculation with your interpretation, and I believe your interpretation must be wrong because it would make the first example on DMG page 67 moot: Longsword with WSF=5 losing initiative with a roll of 4 or 5 can only happen if you use MY comparison rule rather than yours. Even though your interpretation is more natural and mine is a bit crazy, I suspect that's what Gygax meant.

Here's he code if you anybody wants to run it.

https://smalldev.tools/share-bin/kvaMwqnj

it's in typescript compatible with Google Sheets, so if you create an Apps Script in your spreadsheet, you can just invoke the functions.

>>94750811
-New party hasn't been over in their direction since that area has been largely pacified and cleared of monsters at this point
-Tax policy is the standard 10g per peasant per year. Adventuring parties they send out pay between 10 to 25% of their haul to the stronghold going off of some sliding scale that I'm not autistic enough to understand.
-They had a combined 380 followers that they attracted when they first established their stronghold. Of those, I'd say a third are melee dudes in FULL HARNESS, though the players made a point of spending a ton of money on quality follower equipment.
-They have a few trusted retainer scouts that they keep in personal service for important mission, but will outsource for smaller jobs if needed. They have good relations with a local Ranger order that they employ semi-frequently (the actual party Ranger died at Level 7)
-They have a translator to help them understand the Local Dialects
-Cleric is a follower of Not-Jesus it's Jesus and shows grace and forgiveness whenever possible. This is made easier by Detect Evil and such. Demons and their followers are on-sight as it turned out that that Magic User they crusaded against was actually in service of Not-Satan (the same as regular Satan).

I know it was just a meme question, but it was fun watching them work all of this stuff out. Now there's a cool Gothic Cathedral/Fortress on the map that'll probably end up becoming a major settlement down the line.

>>94752648
>it would make the first example on DMG page 67 moot: Longsword with WSF=5 losing initiative with a roll of 4 or 5 can only happen if
true, it wouldnt be the first time an example was wrong however..
its also possible the first initiative check only goes for base d6vs, ignoring the casting time so as to not create a double penalty
alternately we have put more thought into it now than was ever done when the system was devised

Has anyone present ever managed to get far enough into an ACKS campaign to reach domain level?
If so, how does it handle itself? Good? Bad? Spreadsheety?

>>94752796
>it wouldnt be the first time an example was wrong however
That's a fair point. My general idea is that Gygax was shit at explaining rules but reasobably good at maths, accounting, and statistics, so I don't think it's the most likely hypothesis but it's definitely a possibility.

Either way, we agree that both versions are bad, so it's ultimately a moot point.

>alternately we have put more thought into it now than was ever done when the system was devised
That's a guarantee.

>>94752580
What was confusing? I dont play rpgs but im interested in them? I like old school presentations?
>>94750787
Neat. Thanks, ill look into these.

>>94753282
Be nice to him anon. Everyone starts out as a newfag.

>>94749289
Not to "adventurer-king" but "adventurer lord" from level 1 to level 6 as of now. Using BX plus some AD&D or OD&D rules, ACKS for domains.
It is very close to the book, it took us around 2 years of weekly games lasting 2.5 hours, with some breaks in the summer.
I didn't give them exp on a whim, only what they gained from treasure or monsters, those were defined mostly going by what the book (BX) says, I've read some online and found out that my progression is similar to that of other groups.
I don't really feel like greentexting, but they gained their land when they killed a necromancer that had it under control far away (8 or so hex) from civilization, they then attracted followers, even if they are not name level, I simply gave the fighter that became the lord some malus in attracting peasants, taxes etc.
Personally I recommend you study up on ACKS (1st edition is what I'm familiar) and comprehend the process of attracting new peasants, dealing with merchants etc. Personally I've found it a bit long and complex so I made my own python programs to generate some of the stuff there (like what you can buy or which mercenary are there).

>>94749289
I'm currently in an ongoing ACKS game where we're going from cult-to-conquest if that counts.
We're just about to call up our own personal Messiah and after that we're going to settle down and start building a community out in the wilderness.

>>94749354
I mean like beyond that. I want the kind of campaign that runs ad nauseam. I'm sick of running a campaign for 2 years then restarting because everyone reached epic level and can kill Tiamat in 1 round, and there's not even any point rolling up and playing as your old characters' kids because they all became immortal demigods. Just reaching name level isn't enough. I've almost done that in my current game, which has lasted around 45 sessions so far.

>>94749941
That is cool. I like the story there. That said if they retired afterward as local lords then it isn't quite the same. I'm curious if anyone has gone full on Alexander the Great or Hannibal and conquered huge swaths of territory, particularly if they were actually really good wargame players IRL and could consistently "beat" the DM.

>>94753430
What did you do to get to being a lord at level 6? Not saying you have to wait til level 9 but I figured that that was one of the conceits of the game.
> don't really feel like greentexting, but they gained their land when they killed a necromancer that had it under control far away (8 or so hex) from civilization, they then attracted followers, even if they are not name level
Oh I see. That's good enough actually, I didn't expect any greentexts.
>Personally I recommend you study up on ACKS (1st edition is what I'm familiar) and comprehend the process of attracting new peasants, dealing with merchants etc.
I got myself ACKS 1e a while back since it was a cheap hard copy. The domain rules make a decent amount of sense. I was just wondering if anyone had ever used them.

>>94753450
What level? Being a messiah and his disciples sounds like an awesome campaign.

>>94754769
Our High Priest is ~level 7.
But thanks to passing a theology roll I know something most the group don't, that calling up our godling is going to require a human sacrifice, the more powerful the better and I strongly suspect he started a few levels higher for a reason beyond just 'Oh, since it's your first ever ACKS campaign I'll let someone start at Conqueror level to help smooth things in'.

>>94753430
>made my own python programs to generate some of the stuff there
Care to share? Been wanting to give ACKS a go and I love anything that would help remove some of the tedious legwork

>>94754816
Shut up newfag troll.

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>>94753430
>Personally I've found it a bit long and complex so I made my own python programs to generate some of the stuff there (like what you can buy or which mercenary are there).
My brother. I'm currently setting up a database to handle a bunch of bullshit with python to roll stuff out. One of the things is instead of rolling henches as needed I just roll out every leveled character in a domain and see who's where.

Over the last 4 years I've run two sets of games with 3 groups in the 1st one "Season 0" and 2 groups in the 2nd one "Season 1", currently setting up for Season 2. We did a character reset because I changed enough after learning how to run the game that it wouldn't map well so all the previous PCs became NPCs and we time skipped 20 years. The highest level from the next group was level 7, gonna let those characters continue on. Getting into the domain stuff is the next step so I'll probably be doing a Season 1.5 outside of session for people to set up their domains so we can learn the system.

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I've been away for a long while, preoccupied with world and real life crap. What're the popular retroclones these days?

hey guys, i'm going to run an ad&d 1e campaign (first time GMing ad&d 1e) for 4 guys who have only played d&d 5e relatively soon, and i want to start ideally from level 1 with a module to see if the system's to our liking
i've had a look at N1 - Against the Cult of the Reptile God, but having to rely on Ramne, a deus ex machina NPC assistant, to ensure they don't get utterly wiped out by the final boss naga is a total turnoff for me. any selling points/quick rundowns of other low level modules? need not be TSR only

>>94755153
Keep on the Borderlands. In a lot of ways, it's the quintessential low-level experience for OSR-style D&D.

>>94755153
>rely on Ramne
I've run N1 about a dozen times without using that jerk. Just put a scroll or 1-charge wand with the globe of invulnerability and telegraph the naga's presence and charm ability. I like to put the scroll with the lieutenants (saving it in case they want to go AWOL) and have the prisoners or a cowardly guard rat out the naga.
My favorite group captured and convinced the harpy in 16 to help them if they spared her, her stuff, and let her be boss of the place after killing Explicita.

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can someone explain what this is and how its difference from s&w complete or even just white box?

>>94755153
You should be playing BX instead. If you don't play ad&d with a firm understanding of bx, your game is going to fall apart quickly.

>>94755730
This is untrue. AD&D is a self-contained game and needs nothing from B/X.

>>94754836
You got to start above level 1?

>>94755730
nah i've read ad&d 1e pretty thoroughly and a cursory glance at B/X, B/X doesn't interest me and nothing about ad&d 1e's completely comprehensive rules even mildly suggest i would ever have to play a whole different system to understand it

>>94755888
>>94755775
Have fun! Are you employing all of the rules as stated in the main three, or are you cherry picking?

>>94756165
I'm this guy. >>94755775
I don't play AD&D anymore. I play Labyrinth Lord revised.

>>94755144
As always, just play AD&D. Once you have a character at name level, skim ACKS.

>>94755144
>What're the popular retroclones these days?
reject popularity, return to Delving Deeper

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>>94756270
>As always, just play AD&D.
No, for a few reasons.
1- it's hard to get the original books here, at least for prices that aren't ridiculous.
2- I don't want to give WotC money for reprints
3- I don't need the training wheels that AD&D provides in the form of subsystems for minutiae.

That's the real thing that AD&D's subsystems and specifics are there to cure, by the way. They're training wheels to keep bad DMs from fucking the game up with fucked up rulings on edge cases. If you aren't a bad DM, you don't need them.

No shade on anyone that wants them or that just prefers AD&D, but that's what they are meant for.

I know AD&D is supposed to just be a toolset but every time I try to mine the DMG for ideas I end up hating it and just doing my own thing anyway
Like somebody recommended using the DMG's advice for Training Costs to deal with the problem of players having too much money. So then I read it and it's some nonsense where I'm supposed to give every player a letter grade based on how well I think they're playing their class, and it takes multiple weeks depending on their grade at a cost of 1,500 GP per week, so most first-level characters won't actually be able to afford to level up unless I just give everybody the best rating

>>94755702
Reading the image explains the image.

>>94755144
'fraid it's OSE
Mayhaps OSRIC 2 will shake things up

>>94756335
>it's hard to get the original books here, at least for prices that aren't ridiculous.
Printers exist.

>3- I don't need the training wheels that AD&D provides in the form of subsystems for minutiae.
>That's the real thing that AD&D's subsystems and specifics are there to cure, by the way. They're training wheels to keep bad DMs from fucking the game up with fucked up rulings on edge cases. If you aren't a bad DM, you don't need them.
This is B/Xtard cope + projection.

>>94756476
Have tried actually playing it instead of reading it?

>>94756165
i'm playing with all the rules except for psionics
i'm iffy on unarmed combat (the grapple/overbear/pummel system) but i'll reserve judgements until i've actually played with it
initiative with all the fixings (weapon speed factor, WSF vs spellcasters, etc) doesn't honestly seem anywhere near as complicated as people have implied to me in the past and i'm excited to give them a try

I'm having trouble figuring out how BROSR games actually work in practice. Like, let's give them that the intended AD&D experience is a PVP wargame hybrid and hirelings are meant to be used from very early on (a style of play I find compelling, actually), running down the numbers of how much it costs to keep an army running, without even counting monthly upkeep, even a force of a handful footmen+cavalry can eat up more than 2,000gp thanks to high level serjeants and the specialized dudes you also need working for the army (armorers, leatherworkers, etc). While this quantity isn't on itself lethal, there's very few endeavors that will allow a low or even mid level pc to keep a non-insignificant force going unless the GM just showers the players with gold, which runs against the advice in the DMG itself to device ways to take money away from the players.

If we go with the natural assumption that low level pcs will spend their time clearing dungeons then with are seemingly at odds with the BROSR tendency to disfavor "get along gangs", given that dungeon crawling as an activity tends to require a lot of cooperation. GP as an early objective is also disencouraged by some members. Clarity isn't helped, also, because people inside the BROSR writes very little about how their games are actually run in practice, specially domains: Do they give hundreds of thousands of gp to their patrons for free at the start? What's the nitty gritty of paying those big monster armies? What's the monthly upkeep of the characters?

It would be benefitial to write more about the mechanical side of their games, because I am really not seeing it. From the get go AD&D domain rules aren't the clearest.

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>>94756506
>Have tried actually playing it instead of reading it?
No, it's a complete non-starter for me because I'm not going to go back and retroactively assign letter grades for every previous session like pic related says to do. Maybe it'd be okay if I'd been doing it from the start, but I doubt it.
Since you brought it up though, how do your players react to you handing them a report card every week? Or did you not tell them, and let it be a nasty surprise when they finally tried to level up? Do your players mostly average around the "Fair" level, or are you pretty generous with handing out role-playing points?

>>94745240
>TQ
You can't beat BFRPG. Perfect blend of modern and old school rules. I prefer the bit more hard-core game provided by the treasure tables.

>>94755775
Sure, except by definition, Advanced is significantly more complicated than basic, with the additional complications of having significant amounts of the books that are difficult to parse for people who have not used them extensively.
>>94755888
Enjoy! You're going to have a significantly uphill battle getting 5e babbies (including yourself) acclimated.

>>94756335
>it's hard to get the original books here, at least for prices that aren't ridiculous
Just download a pdf and print it out, what the fuck is wrong with you?
>Ad&d is training wheels
Another phenomenal ESL post

>>94756790
Honestly the entirety of this movement isn't anything that you should be interested in, or be concerned about.
If you want to understand how these games are supposed to be properly played, I recommend looking more into the FAG movement.

>>94757138
Not really a game that's well received around here, pretty much completely out of favor and borderline off topic

>>94757314
If only your condescending advice could be collected into a PDF and first-posted in each thread.

>>94757365
No problem, if you want I can put together a compilation of things you need to know ahead of time!
Just let me know

>>94756335
the LBBs are perfect for home printing, even if you don't have a laser printer and a bigass stapler you can probably get it done at a print shop if they have those in your country

>>94757344
>the FAG movement
is this just a funny name for CAG (classic adventure gaming) or is it its own thing

>>94757352
Only by you.

>>94752696
>but it was fun watching them work all of this stuff out.
Agreed.
I'm going to steal the idea of yours of having it become a growing frontier settlement and plop it down into my own home game.
Do you want it to have a particular name or any other details so that you may perhaps recognize it one day?

>>94756335
>That's the real thing that AD&D's subsystems and specifics are there to cure, by the way. They're training wheels to keep bad DMs from fucking the game up with fucked up rulings on edge cases.
Yes.
>If you aren't a bad DM, you don't need them.
You most likely aren't as good of a DM as you think you are. You are welcome to prove me wrong by giving examples of how you would rule the "edge cases" that AD&D adresses through codified
procedures and subsystems.

>>94757478
Why, it's an acronym for Fantasy Adventure Gaming of course. That's what we play here in /osrg/, says it right there on the cover of B/X!

>>94757478
>CAG
A bunch of tryhard posers who are afraid to even talk about the rules lest they get called out.
D&D is known as a Fantasy Adventure Game, which was even more important to its branding than "role playing game".
FAG seeks to return to the trve roots without any sanctimonious assumptions

>>94756607
>i'm playing with all the rules except for psionics
Enlightened and TRVE AD&D™ pilled
>i'm iffy on unarmed combat (the grapple/overbear/pummel system)
I recommend you follow your gut feeling on this one. There is a chance you might get a powergamer in your group who will "build" a character designed to abuse this subsystem.
if you do, greentext the result here sometime, please, thank you in advance

>>94757540
Haha, well meme'd!

>>94756965
>No
Concession accepted.
>retroactively
Retard alert! Just because you change a rule for the future doesn't mean you have to retcon the past.
>how do your players react to you handing them a report card every week?
Unfortunately I play OSE but fortunately we don't have the problems you have like bad roleplayers with infinite bank inventory or being a bitchmode DM.

>>94756790
>Clarity isn't helped, also, because people inside the BROSR writes very little about how their games are actually run in practice, specially domains:
I played for 9 months in a what I would call "we have BROSR at home" game. Then I took over from the burnt out DM because the group was nice and phased out most of the typical BROSR vestments over the following year.
"Patrons" were basically in charge of monster lairs or individual settlements, personally I ran an "Elf Lair" close to the edge of the campaign millieu.
>Do they give hundreds of thousands of gp to their patrons for free at the start?
You started with whatever treasure was rolled up for your lair, including magic items for your leader types (we had some input on who should reasonably have what) settlements had fixed expenses and incomes in the neighbourhood of 1'000gp net income per month.
>What's the nitty gritty of paying (playing?) those big monster armies?
As nitty gritty as the patrons wanted it to be. The Elves basically all had individual names because there were so few and had to write down everyone's memorized spells. The Orcs just kept conquering neighbouring tribes and only cared for their (sub)chiefs. The humans had so many officers in the city garrison they rarely knew who would be where at all.
>paying
Lairs basically had no upkeep, but also no income at first (numbers were given, but amounted to net 0).
>What's the monthly upkeep of the characters?
For PCs we went with 100 gp/level/month.

>>94757352
He's trolling with that "more hard-core" bit, ignore him.
Also, it's not off-topic, it's just kind of a shitty system for the OSR playstyle

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>>94756790
>which runs against the advice in the DMG itself to device ways to take money away from the players.
Only what the DM deems in excess of what he intends for the characters to have.
If he wants PCs to have loadsacash to build strongholds and build armies, taxes will be low to nonexistent.
If he wants PCs to stay in rusty shanktown all game at the mercy of The Local Lord, there are constant taxes and fees (enforced and collected by limitless and high level men-at-arms in full harness guided by experienced scouts and trackers to hunt down any and all tax evaders).

>>94757725
Thank you anon, this clarifies things much more.

In regards to non-monster settlements, are we taking here about individual towns and villages, or full domains? Also, the income and expenses were calculated as player domains (7sp per person), or your group used a different method? They got their armies the old way (paying for the troops), or you guys gave them some numbers at the start?

In regards to PCs, what was the role of conventional level 1 dudes in your campaign? How they interacted with the patron side of things? You had the same players for both levels, or different ones?

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Just for the hell of it I decided to lay out all the math for the bare minimum training costs. I am not impressed. Even one extra day of training can set you back.

>>94757899
Minor mistake with the chart, thieves should be red at levels 4 and 5 as well. You get the idea.

>>94757899
This looks like one of those things that was designed based on what happened at Gygax and co's tables

>>94757955
Most likely. I'm sure you're intended to trade magic items, take out loans, exchange favors, and so on. I'm still not sure I see any room for hiring henchmen and experts, paying for sages, clerical services if needed, you can just eke by on living expenses at early levels, taxes are brutal...

Having double-checked my math I've realized more classes have it even worse at early levels; everyone is red at level 3. No matter, not gonna repost it in this particular thread because I think the point is more or less made.

I dont think training is inherently bad; Gary's justification for why you should be made to train for longer periods is sensible, the idea that merely acquiring the gold isn't enough helps to fix the """realism""" """problem""" of GP = XP. Switching the training costs to silver makes the entire thing trivial but might be worthy of consideration anyway.

>>94757899
Yeah but have you tried it???

>>94748008
Armor doesn't stand by itself, it's just added weight on your body.
My guess based on intuition is that it would protect you from scratching and a nasty rock but would aggravate gravity damage.

>>94756965
>how do your players react to you handing them a report card every week
He thinks characters level up every week. That's cute. Make it more like once every two months.

Besides, most characters played by non-retarded players tend to get the best rating unless they do shit like a Fighter refusing to engage with enemies or a Magic-User trying to melee every fight (while somehow surviving).

>>94757138
>BFRPG.
Ew, no. The way Gonnerman fucked up the XP rules, treasure tables, and encounter tables literally ruins the game.

>>94757657
>There is a chance you might get a powergamer in your group who will "build" a character designed to abuse this subsystem.
He'd be lucky if he did. System mastery is to be praised and encouraged. We're not play acting here.

>>94757899
Your chart colours assume that a character will have as much gold as his experience points, and that characters will not be lending money to each other. In practice, both assumptions are wrong. Characters rarely hit the minimum XP for a level, often it's a big haul taking them halfway to the next one. Every time a character dies in a dungeon, that's a buttload of money not worth any XP for his party makes unless you play with inheritance rules, which also address the problem by having characters start with much more money. Not having much money and having to find ways to get it to train makes the game deeper, by giving you problems to address. Once the campaign starts going and each player has multiple PCs of different levels, lending each other money for training is a non-issue.

Last but not least, the side effects of forced downtime from training with 1:1 between sessions make the game extremely more interesting by forcing more character rotation.

TL;DR You should try playing AD&D rather than theorycrafting the rulebooks.

>>94758021
>Switching the training costs to silver
Play the fucking game before fixing it, Anon.

>>94758171
>He thinks characters level up every week. That's cute. Make it more like once every two months.
No, reread the passage. You're supposed to score them every week. Then you calculate the average of their weekly scores when they finally level up.
It doesn't say if you're supposed to keep them updated on their weekly scores though. I would prefer to give them reports so they have time to correct their behavior, instead of waiting until levelup time to tell them that they're screwed, which is what you apparently do?

>most characters played by non-retarded players tend to get the best rating
I'd be more inclined to read it this way if he just gave them an A/B/C/D letter grade, but he decided to call the top rank "Exceptional" and the third rank "Fair", which makes it sound like rank 3 should be pretty much the default and 1 for exceptional players only. Plus if I'm expected to give mostly E ranks anyway then I'd rather not hand out participation trophies and just go with a flat training cost per level.

>>94753430
>Personally I've found it a bit long and complex so I made my own python programs to generate some of the stuff there
That's my problem with ACKS: at a certain point you need external support (spreadsheets and so on) for handling all the domain stuff and world economy....

>>94756335
>1- it's hard to get the original books here, at least for prices that aren't ridiculous.
>2- I don't want to give WotC money for reprints
There are "available" pdf online, also printers, and online printing stores like LULU exists.

>>94758245
>doesn't say if you're supposed to keep them updated on their weekly scores
Correct.

>would prefer to give them reports so they have time to correct their behavior
You need to take into account that this was written in 1979, when nobody really had any idea how D&D worked, so Gygax was talking to an audience that, presumably, had no idea how to play D&D and was also dealing with players who had no idea either.

Now granted, WotCfags and 2etards today have lots of wrong ideas about how to play the game, but those self-correct by simply applying the procedures, starting from XP for gold.

What they DON'T have an issue with is the idea that different character classes have different roles in the party to play, because that notion is hammered to them not only by Hickmanfagging D&D, but also by MMORPGs. And if you read again the examples in the DMG, that's what you're supposed to be rating: Fighters not fighting, Clerics not using their spells correctly, Magic-Users going into melee. Meaning that, in practice, you'll almost always rate them as Excellent (1).

So what you should do is, if ever you get a Cleric that doesn't Cleric, is you can warn the player that, if he keeps doing that, he'll need more time and money for training if and when he gets enough XP to level up.

So (1) that ain't happening, and (2) even if it does, worst case scenario is he gets some time out as Cleric and has to play a different character for some time.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

>he decided to call the top rank "Exceptional" and the third rank "Fair"
Again, 1979. Players had zero notion of what D&D and RPGs were like. It was an esoteric thing that only a select few had had access to through the LBBs, which were largely incomprehensible for most.

1979 Exceptional is the expected rating for the average non-retarded OSR player in 2025.

>>94758355
I found a cleaned-up scan of the first printing (with explicit references to Hobbits, Nazgul, Balrogs and so on) that I'm very happy with for home printing
The only problem is now that I know how easy it is I'm addicted to printing RPG booklets. I'm even thinking of splitting B/X up and printing it off that way

Is Gunderholfen any good?

>>94757842
>In regards to non-monster settlements, are we taking here about individual towns and villages, or full domains?
Towns as part of a larger (DM-only) domain, "the Empire". The major towns had patrons who took the role of the appointed governors (level 0 dudes as civilian governors with a 7th level fighter as the military commander). One patron was the province's (the settled region of the millieu, an overseas territory conquered from semi-barbarian natives, quite unimportant and off-map ressources need months to arrive if available at all) actual governor and got a list of priorities from the DM that he was free to pursue. One was "exterminate that big underground goblin faction, special request from the emperor" and to encourage him he started with a small troop of gnomish engineers and tunne fighters. He was in charge of the biggest town of course.
>Also, the income and expenses were calculated as player domains (7sp per person), or your group used a different method?
After I took over, I found no documentation of how the original DM came up with the numbers. I assumed he made them up within reason so far and I kept doing that.

>>94757842
>They got their armies the old way (paying for the troops), or you guys gave them some numbers at the start?
Most troops were present at the start. Imperial army detachements ("Urban Cohorts"), 33% in, 33% patrolling, 33% off duty, as well as "militia" who gathered at a rate of so and so many each day when called up. If I had to make a new army detachment, I'd go with the "Men" entry from the Monster Manual, specifically Bandits as they are closest to "some human troops". Max numbers for the capital, median die rolls for outlying towns.
I later added additional patrols (DMG) who are random (road )encounters. The governors could call on their assigned patrol, but those have their priorities like escorting shipments of McGuffinite to the homeland.
Anything beyond that has to be hired, we use the DMG table for mercenary soldiers (expert hirelings), 3-5 rolls per week per town depending on size. The expensive part is always providing equipment, especially warhorses.
Most governors opted to instead train fresh troops from conscripts (unpopular) or volunteers (slow). 2 months for infantry and non-archers, 3 months for cavalry, 4 months for archers. Costs beyond equipment were always made up within reason.

>>94757842
>In regards to PCs, what was the role of conventional level 1 dudes in your campaign?
Normal weekly sessions. Eventually the consensus became "patron/faction play is cool and enriches the world, but the DM focus is mainly on the PCs".
Level 1 dudes join the mid-level party and if they survive they are mid-level themselves in a month or two.
How they interacted with the patron side of things?
Nobody could figure out how to bring together the drawn out long-term patron play and the player motivations for given evenings.
The patrons mostly created situations that the PCs were at best tangentially related. The biggest it got was that the Orc faction attacked the Elf faction (Orc and former DM got super busy, so they already had a "Horde" of 4 orc lairs unified through intensive patron play over a single weekend). This happened 8 weeks into a 3+ year game, btw. The most aggressive patrons picked fights immediately and were eventually put down by one of their would-be victims. The rest lost interest over time. The PC-only players were pretty much oblivious to all of this and just played the game normally

>You had the same players for both levels, or different ones?
Both. Former DM and I allowed (and still do) players to take a look somewhat "behind the scenes" if (one of their) PCs warranted that, but we had dedicated patron-only participants at the beginning. Before I could no longer handle the bookkeeping and could no longer provide consistent weekly updates or even content/events, we even had players both control a faction as well as PCs, associated with eachother or not.
"Associated PC" went a bit like:
>Your elf PC is actually from the elf village? The chieftess there (literally your Mom, on special request from that player who also played the faction) looks out for you and warns you of dangers known to her, but she also expects you to spy and follow orders.
>Your PC joined the thieves guild? They now offer more services and thief-y items than before, if you are high enough level they assign you some territory to run. Sometimes you have to mess with the guild's rivals, but they have it out for you anyway now.
>You are a Paladin (or just a good aligned fighter)? Due to your reputation, authorities (the governor patrons) want you on their side as a popular figurehead, they even trust you to go collect taxes from the town that the thieves' guild all but took over.
>You are a CE Cleric? Once you're strong and infamous the CE cult contacts you to include you in their schemes, or to have you steer "nosy adventurers" away from them.
>The higher level the PC, the more serious the relevant faction takes him.
At some point the first PCs will reach name-level and their previous actions over their carreer will determine how the current leaders in the area will react to them.

>>94757842
>>94758530
>>94758534
>>94758548
The main issue with this is that this requires many patron players to stay active and involved. If they only check in once every 4 sessions, their faction is pretty much doomed to fall into obscurity and the DM would have to spread his focus even more to pick up the slack. I think this is the reason the former DM burned out and I therefore phased out the week-to-week patron play after I took over.
Nowadays I only allow access to the inner workings of the faction if the player's PC would get that, no more patron players (they all got eliminated or lost interest).
Factions are still around, but they are ultimately DM controlled with players giving input or suggestions. The faction leaders also serve as appropriate trainers for mid-level PCs.

Hope that helped.

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>>94754929
Where did you take the data for that "personality" and "beliefs" tables?
Regarding databases, I originally had my program in java, had it connected to an Oracle DB, but running all that stuff was a chore, so switched to python, unfortunately I'm more used to hibernate so if I were to do this thing I would have to study up an equivalent in python.
>>94754842
I could share, but it generates everything in italian. I mean I used a system where the python program takes data from a CSV file, so if I switch that up it should generate stuff in english (or any language if you translate it). Regarding ACKS I have a generator of: mercenaries, retainers (it only tells you how many are here), specialized labor, mercants and what they sell, the price for each item in a city. All given the market size.
For characters I worked more for my Carcosa generator, for that I also made the weapon, shub spawn and robot generators.
I mean I did all of this shit for myself, if I get paid I'll do it for others I guess ahah.
Picrelated is how the file from which the program takes the data appears.

>>94758512
It's very meh. Extremely linear and not Jelqed at all (although it might look like it is at first sight), which is a huge deal breaker. You're much better off with one of the classics: Stonehell, Castle Xyntillan, Barrowmaze, Caverns of Thracia.

>>94756506
>This is B/Xtard cope + projection.
This is "babby needs training wheels" cope. I used to play AD&D, but like Gary himself, I've just gravitated toward a lighter rules set over time.

>>94757321
>Another phenomenal ESL post
You don't know what ESL means, do you, newfriend?

If it makes you both feel better, call the subsystems guard rails against bad DMs instead. Either way, the fact that they're there to stop tards from ruining games with bad rulings remains. Incidentally, this is the same thing that 3.x and later have tried to do, but to an even more ridiculous degree.

>>94758564
>Hope that helped.

It did anon, quite a lot.

You comment in regards to how long term patron play would hardly ever get to interact with the adventurer level is one of my fears, and makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more useful to just have the level 1 dudes be agents of name-level characters from the get go as to get them involved and potentially antagonistic from the start. I am surprised by how your game seemingly reached very similar rulings and situations as my own experiment with patron play.

The more I look into it, the more I suspect that just straight up having a wargame setup (players controlling factions with a wide range of characters from level 1 to name level, using them as pawns) would be more conductive to this specific type of play.

Once you take away all the bullshit and shit-flinging, which style of play actually represents the intended classic D&D experience the most? The bros? CAG? Some obscure campaign in a 60yo GM basement?

>>94756965
If your dumbass isn't willing to actually play the game we're not willing to talk about it

>>94755826
We as a group all agreed to him starting slightly above level and being our only link to the greater cult (Sort of a cell system) so that we had more flexibility.
It's worked out remarkably well honestly since it gave us a chance to all develop from 1st while still having someone high enough rank that they were sent by head office as it were.

>>94759583
FAG, clearly. It represents the most accurate portrayal of this general, and is the more accurate term for D&D over role-playing game

>>94759583
Probably a mix of all.

>>94759651
What are the practical differences betweem CAG and FAG, besides one having an absurdly more fun acronym?

>>94759583
>Some obscure campaign in a 60yo GM basement?
it's this one and the competition is not even slightly close

>>94759757
They're the same thing. They called it FAG at first for fun as they were settling their ideas, and then when a group realised they liked what they were doing and agreed a fair amount and wanted to set up a formal group to discuss it, they chose an acronym that people would actually use / be willing to join a group over.

>>94759830
Not even close, I'm not sure where you get this made up nonsense from, so please don't speak for others.
>>94759757
FAG or fantasy Adventure gaming, is actually linked to the original roots of D&D. "CAG/classic adventure gaming" it's just something that some group came up with, whereas FAG is actually more important to the origins of D&D than "roleplaying", and has been embraced as a return to form, rather than a reinterpretation.

>>94759850
My question was more in terms of: What are the practices that distinguish FAG from other playstyles? What this return to form actually entails on the table? How the games look like?

>>94759880
its literally just original osr, with explicitly kicking out the nusr

any thoughts on U1 - Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh?

>>94759880
Most FAG is directly tied to:
-BX with ad&d added on as necessary
-"patron influence" not patron play
-Adherance to procedure over fiat
-No inclusion of practices and principles of NUSR
-emphasis on gygaxian style gaming with its wargame roots
-strict record keeping and 1:1 downtime, but no time jail
-Open table but only for curated applicants
No drama, no pretense, no claiming to be "the trve way". Just good old school gaming with none of the hangups.

>>94759850
>F
Fantasy! Not entirely referring to the genre but also imagination, whimsy, and fantastical situations. A rejection of mudcore.
>A
Adventure! Even mundane things like securing taxes or buying a building should be an adventure in themselves and lead to more adventures.
>G
Games! All the whinging about labels and what is or isn't a roleplaying game or wargame or boardgame or OSR is just semantics bullshit. Touch dice, play games.

>>94759981
>patron influence" not patron play
Meaning, the GM plays the patrons, right?

>>94760077
I play in four different BX tables a week.
I'm not sure why it makes you feel good to tear down the things that other people enjoy.
FAGs are good gamers and good people.

>>94756965
A startling and saddening discovery. Brace for replies with epic levels of butthurt and seething.

>>94760085
Yes, the GM plays the "patrons" but will frequently informally assign those patrons to other people outside of the games, to help them spitball and make snap decisions.
Ex: DM Bob has several factions working behind the scenes. One of them is going to be interacting with the players soon, so Bob wants to know more about what the pninja are doing, without directly basing the decision on his own presupposition, so he goes to his cousin bill who isn't in the game, whenever he has questions about the ninjas. Bill tells him his cool ideas, potential motivations, and potential weaknesses of the ninjas. Bill comes up with ideas and DM Bob takes these ideas and absorbs them into the game, on a case-by-case basis.
In this way you get the zigzagging and persistent looming presents of powerful factions actively working in your game, without making players submit to "patron players" or to simply shoe horn in all of your own personal ideas.

>>94760123
All right well I'm going to give you a thumbs up then, because that's also how I like to run things. FAGs are okay (for now)

>>94754769
>What did you do to get to being a lord at level 6? Not saying you have to wait til level 9 but I figured that that was one of the conceits of the game.
They killed the necromancer, spent money on the tower he had to make it functional for them, a tower whose value is within values for a valid stronghold ACKS suggests given a small (4-5 hexes) barony in the borderlands, then they cleared the hex where the tower is and the adjacent hexes, I used ACKS rules to determine how many lairs of monsters, rolled them and placed them on my map.
Pretty simple no?
The only special detail is that the neighboring kingdom doesn't really recognize them that much and is looking for a chance to make them submit as vassals, besides this the Lord of the land, due to not being an actual Baron/Lord as in of high level, has some debuffs to tax income and peasants loyalty, so he spends some more of his gp on his barony than standard.

>>94759830
>they chose an acronym that people would actually use / be willing to join a group over
Fuck it, I'm doing it. I'm a Fantasy Adventure Gamer and I'm proud.

Invite link to the Fantasy Adventure Gaming discord:
https://discord.gg/9swJ5cWk

The topic will be the same as the one here on /osrg/: First decade D&D. I will keep things extremely minimalist, with as few channels as possible, because I actually detest Discord's interface.

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>>94758867
I cribbed it from Dwarf Fortress and tweaked the numbers around to give a distribution I wanted for the beliefs. Eventually I actually want to take those into account when selected a class for the stat line, or maybe have the class affect the beliefs? I'm not sure. Right now it just takes into account the stats, so a high STR stat line has a higher chance of being a Paladin over a Wizard. There's also the base line weight of the class so Fighters are the most common, things like Barbarians less so.

>>94760508
>The only special detail is that the neighboring kingdom doesn't really recognize them that much and is looking for a chance to make them submit as vassals, besides this the Lord of the land, due to not being an actual Baron/Lord as in of high level, has some debuffs to tax income and peasants loyalty, so he spends some more of his gp on his barony than standard.
Based, that's the exact way it should be. The fun thing about ACKS is that once you start earning cash that way you start to level up towards actually being a Lord of appropriate level.
You just have to hold on tight until the Big Man Juice kicks in.

>>94761022
hmm I see, I'll steal from DF as well. Which ORM/persistency system are you using for python to connect to a DB?
>>94761077
Thanks, nothing special really, I simply applied the rules up to where they existed and inferred the rest, after all the fighter could theoretically start a castle at level 1.

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>>94761098
Right now I just have a local DB I access with SQLite directly. I don't really know much about SQL, I pester my friends who actually have comp sci degrees about it every so often. I think one of my friends suggested SQLAlchemy at some point to make things easier but I wanted to learn SQL better so I just write the queries and everything myself.

Still need to hook the NPC generation into the main DB, that project predates the DB so I just have it going to a .csv file that I have another spreadsheet analyze.

>>94761241
oh... oh no anon... well good luck.

>>94756965
Don't play with players who you'd give less than 'E'
Problem solved.

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>>94761273
It helps me learn which is nice, that's what most of these projects are for when it comes down to it. From looking at it it does seem easier but then I'd just be learning more python and not the SQL, which is certainly simpler but I just don't think I have a good enough understanding to skip straight to the easier version for now. Maybe in the future. I don't have a programming background, the character generation is how I started to learn python aside from a single class in college. I'm sure the code itself is sloppy as fuck but I got to make it so that's neat. This is the result of the stat weighting so different classes on average will have their Prime Requisites higher.

Do you think the Beliefs should influence the Class or the class influence the Beliefs? I want to leave room for the weirdos, Fighters that hate war and Thieves who have a strong sense of justice but I'm not sure how it'd go about that. Flat modifiers of like +10 to Justice would make the -3 hates justice Paladin impossible but the weighting is a pain in the ass to figure out. I've been leaning to the class influencing the Beliefs because I don't want to muddy up the selection criteria too much while still have Fighters who generally like to Fight.

>>94761365
Dope. If I had an hour for every time, while running for name level players, that I found myself wishing I could code, I probably could have learned to code by now.

>>94761456
I was very similar, I did a ton of stuff in Excel and Google Sheets, truly asinine levels of bullshit that my friends would constantly tell me would be better if I picked up programming. That went on for probably 7-8 years until I finally took a single class which gave me enough of a push to start doing it myself. Now I just have various projects I want to do that I learn what I need to to do. Made this character generator, made a discord bot, working on the database, just slowly adding things to it.

>>94760954
Okay, now THIS is epic

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>>94760954
>>94761827
We even have a logo. If /osrg/ has an Obese Sedentary Raccoon, we have a Fat-Ass Gorilla.

>Welcome to Fantasy Adventure Gaming, the discord dedicated to the first decade of TSR-era D&D, derived systems, and compatible content.

>Broadly, Fantasy Adventure Gaming encourages a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons as played in the game's first decade—less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agency.

>>94761858
>We even have a logo.
Or rather a mascot. Or a totem animal.

>>94761948
I prefer to call it an ornamental henchman

>>94759757
CAG is just the version of FAG that doesn't have an unfortunate acronym, it literally means the same thing. "Roleplaying" beat out "Fantastic Adventure Gaming" in the old days in the first place because "RPG" is a harmless acronym, so when people decided to revived the concept and stop using the "roleplaying" misnomer, they decided to say Classic instead of Fantastic to fix the acronym issue.

Then this thread started meming about it, I'm not sure why exactly a couple actual fags here find it so funny.

>>94761858
>dedicated to the first decade of TSR-era D&D
Why was this removed from the /osrg/ OP anyway?

>>94762083
It's not a meme, FAGing probably gets more games weekly then most people get monthly

>>94761365
>Do you think the Beliefs should influence the Class or the class influence the Beliefs?
Half and half? One informs the other honsetly, roll a 50% for which prevails.

>>94762122
Well that's what happens when you know a good public toilet and own a half decent pair of wellies.

Do you really have to keep trying to split these threads into ever more absurd and narrow definitions? /todd/ couldn't survive on its own, what makes you think /fag/ could?
Besides, if you really want to go in: Gygaxian Arnesonian Yesteryear Fantasy Adventure Games is far superior.

>>94762167
>GAYFAG
Yeah that's pretty based.
Nobody's trying to split anything, there have been no alternative threads made, and no contention with /osrg/. We are just fellow gamers here to enjoy ourselves :)

>>94762083
CAG also has fart-huffing e-celebs who insist they've discovered TRVE AD&D.
roleplaying" is not a misnomer, as it is an essential metric to determine training costs, times, and mentor requirements, and was even a metric used for scoring in tournaments.

>>94762167
chill out haha there's no need to be rude

>>94762167
Too narrow and easily prone to misinterpretations. I much prefer playing FAGWADs with my friends when we get together. Fantastical Arnesonian Gygaxian Wargaming Adventure Dungeoncrawlers. If it doesn't have domain play, it isn't a true FAGWAD!

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>>94762083
>Then this thread started meming about it
FAG has been around for at least 7 years

>>94762094
That'll be the 2nd ed troll trying to topic shift the general.

>>94762187
This. CAG is dog shit and EOTB is an absolute buffoon.
The great thing about FAG is that they aren't pretentious and are just a bunch of good guys that like to have fun.

>>94762167
/todd/ died because there wasn't anyone who could actively sustain 2nd ed, nusr and all the off-topic shit they were open to.

Very nice. Let's see Paul Allen's acronym.

>>94762249
mwahaha and there's nothing you can do to stop me!
>:3

>>94762252
Just some chill guys playing some chill FAGs
>>94762213
No Wesley? Disrespectful

>>94762252
Fantasy Adventure Gaming is the ultimate coal mine canary. Anyone not willing to PROUDLY identify with the title is either pretentious or a vile nasty person that hates a good time. Tells you all you need to know before they've even said anything.

>>94762321
I am partial to Fantasy Adventure Roleplay Tabletop, personally

is the guy who is running isle of dread still posting? i had some questions

whats the best way to play b/x solo? i tried using a dungeon generation method but it just felt very cumbersome.

>>94762491
That depends on if you are interested in steering your own story, or are looking to be challenged. In the case of the ladder, it will address both your skill as a player, and as a writer. See even using a simple Oracle of your choice (a lot of people like mythic), will present you with prompts and challenges that will help your game develop naturally.
Personally I play solo as a means of testing my dungeons for playability. There's nothing that's really preventing you from playing through certain modules yourself with a whole party under your single command, but you might lose out a lot on the wow factor, when it comes to surprises and traps.
That being said, I recommend you check out the flash game "dungeon robber" it is presented as an OD&D text based solo dungeon crawling game, you could probably get a lot of mileage out of that especially since the game itself is based on an art project that is the engine the game runs on

>>94762477
Yes I am 3 weeks behind on our play reports but we are still going strong, session 11 I think so far. Party cleared out a pirate cove and did a wonky metaphysical adventure that determined the effects of the raise dead spell for our campaign

>>94762491
>whats the best way to play b/x solo?
Appendices A, B, and C from the DMG. If you don't like the dungeon generation method from the DMG, you can use Dyson Logos' dungeonmorphs.

https://davesmapper.com/

https://dysonlogos.blog/tag/dungeon-geomorphs/

>>94762152
Beliefs informing classes would be very cool but it might muddy things too much and wash out the stat weighting which is a pain because it took forever to match the ratio that ACKS has set up. Maybe I just take the L and say no, Thieves can't have max Justice, they can at best have +2 or something. Or maybe I can have a roll of how much it's modified. Fighters get +3d6 to War Is Cool which means on average that'll bump them up a level but then sometimes it doesn't change much. Honestly I could probably go with a tighter distribution and have the classes responsible for people getting to the -3/+3 level since those are very extreme.

The Peace Belief has a -3 of "thinks that the world should be engaged in perpetual warfare" vs a +3 of "believes the idea of war is utterly repellent and would have peace at all costs" which are pretty extreme views most people don't have. Having those extreme be shockingly rare without a class involvement makes sense to me.

>>94762167
When I most recently restarted the FAG meme (kind of by accident), it was an attempt to remind everyone not to take themselves so seriously. Nevertheless here you are taking yourself seriously like a fag instead of a FAG. Shameful.

>>94762491
Scarlet Heroes.

>>94762946
Pretty sure I started it but it'll be neat to see if anyone is actively brave enough to start public facing social media about it.

>>94758999
Isn't barrowmaze also an extremely linear dungeon?

>>94763170
The opposite, it has a dozen different entrances.

>>94758999
But none of these are compatible with 1e AD&D. Gunderholfen is

>>94763163
>>94762946
Stolen valor.

>>94763328
>But none of these are compatible with 1e AD&D.
Don't be retarded. Xyntillan, Thracia, and Barrowmaze are for AD&D, and Stonehell is for B/X, meaning it's compatible with extremely minimal changes you can make on the fly.

>>94763328
You got to be kidding. Are you this dense or are you trolling?

>>94763331
No I am fagicus.

>>94763532
Xyntillian and Thracia are for OD&D, while Barrowmaze seems pretty B/X to me. It's like claiming b2 ad&d compatible when the keep on the borderlands doesn't include trainers, taxes, tithes or the same services as 1e

>>94763585
Gunderholfen doesn't include any of that shit either

>>94763328
>OSR founded on the principle of compatibility between all Gygaxian editions, total interchangeability of monster statlines with minimal, easily-memorized conversion if you even bother to care at all
>Niggers nevertheless complaining that OSR products are made for the wrong edition and refusing to use them
I really wish this was the first time I'd seen this phenomenon.

>>94763688
Almost a reverse purity spiral if you will

>>94763585
Modules don't have those, it's already in the book. You're an obvious troll.

>>94764047
>You're an obvious troll
So how dumb does it make you that you had to reply to him anyway and tell everyone something they all know already?

Is Traveller a FAG? (Don't forget that science fiction and Fantasy were once under the same umbrella)

>>94764500
No, but surely metamorphosis alpha counts as a FAG

>>94764174
Nou.

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>>94764500
No. Wanderer is FATSS though.

>>94764770
Oh wow I didn't know this was a thing

>>94764793
It's not, really, it was a mockup somebody made. But there was an attempt to make it into a real thing at one point. I don't think they got past book 1.
Sword of Cepheus is probably the closest thing to this being a real, finished game.

>>94764812
>It's not, really, it was a mockup somebody made.
but... now I want it

>>94763585
>Xyntillian and Thracia are for OD&D, while Barrowmaze seems pretty B/X to me
Not sure if retarded or trolling.

>>94764812
>Sword of Cepheus is probably the closest thing to this being a real, finished game.
Except it's a 2d6 game, which besides being a retarded choice makes it incompatible with D&D.

>>94765430
Context: discussion of Wanderer, an imaginary fantasy version of Classic Traveller, a 2d6 game.

>>94765461
Context:
>Is it a FAG?
If you redo Traveller with a 3d6/d20 system, the six D&D stats, AC, HP, a levelling system, and something equivalent to XP for gold, it might be. We're on /osrg/ and the topic is always the extent to which something is compatible with TSR D&D. If you want to discuss Traveller on its own and without any reference to D&D, guess what, it has its own sub.

>>94765492
>>94765492
>The implication.

>>94762946
>Taking yourself seriously
>He said to a post where someone suggests that they instead call themselves GAYFAG
You must have been adopted by clowns at a young age, because you think jokes are serious business.

>>94765492
There is no Traveller "sub" anymore, offboard scum. I stopped making the general ages ago when it turned into a ghost town thanks to a shitposting jackoff

>>94764047
Arden Vul does tbf. But arden vul is 1100 pages long

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WIP

>>94767560
Is this a lair or a dungeon? Where are the hallways?

>>94767573
Dungeon. It's more a side level though: or might work on its own in a "back to base at the end of the session" game.

More so, it's an exploration of verticality - up and down - within a singular small space.

>>94765633
thats a shame, i always considered travellers osr anyway, and thats with me also trveosr'ing

>>94767682
>i always considered travellers osr anyway
>and thats with me also trveosr'ing
have a (you)

>>94767676
>less than 20 rooms
>dungeon
No, that's a liar.
>"back to base at the end of the session" game
You can do this with any size, the players have to figure out when to stop and head back. You're thinking something retarded like
>"clear the dungeon like its a videogame level or some wotcshit in a session" game
Towers are legitimately hard to make into interesting exploration dungeons. They tend to at best be a straight line with a few unlinked options. Verticality is best served in a larger scale where the joins are at different points for both player character tactical movement and explaining various wandering monsters.

>>94767747
>liar
pun intended?

>>94767747
Not really a tower - but I hear you. Making a tower jaquayed, in the past, has required me to have sub-levels, like tower basement levels: or maybe magic pocket dimensions accessible, Door to Saturn style.

Won't argue about the semantics of the word "dungeon."

>>94767771
Happy accident.
>>94767812
I accept your concession.

>>94767747
>less than 20 rooms
>dungeon
How many rooms would constitute a dungeon, anon? Versus halls, levels, and so on.

>>94748008
Chain wouldn't offer any protection and would actually make matters worse by making you heavier and increasing your inertia.

Any armour including substantial padding or large rigid plates would make very short falls slightly less dangerous by slowing you down a bit (padding) and distributing the impact on a larger surface (plate), but the effect would be modest and obviously depend on what body part you land on.

That's IRL. In the game they offer no benefit, nor should they.

>>94767919
I accept your concession.

erm ackshually, and true veteran FAGs know this, what is today called a "megadungeon" is more properly a dungeon, and today's dungeons, by inverse relationship, is effectively a microdungeon, and the alleged "mini-/micro-dungeons" of today are picodungeons.

>>94762273
I miss /todd/ nobody on here will want to hear about my C&C game. It's well into the Forge of Fury at this point.

>>94768083
But has anyone ever encountered the legendary attodungeon?
Or did someone put down the map for it and we lost it again?

>>94767964
Chain includes heavy padding, just like plate does. Derp

>>94761365
>Do you think the Beliefs should influence the Class or the class influence the Beliefs?
I’d go with class the belief mostly, I go by the assumption that most classed npc’s either were born into the profession of their father, taken in as an apprentice at an early age or just plain got forced into a class by life (fighters got conscripted, thieves grew up poor and joined the guild etc)

>>94767919
>>94768055
That's not an answer. Legit curious.
Do you have a number in mind - or any design standards at all, as pertaining to dungeons, lairs, or adventure sites?

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>>94768083
Three wars back we called sauerkraut "liberty cabbage," and we called liberty cabbage "super slaw!"

And back then, a suitcase was known as a Swedish lunchbox.

'Course, nobody knew that but me.

>>94768221
Lairs should be ~5 rooms
Dungeons should be ~20 room, but with the assumption that there is also plenty of hallways, and rooms which are quite large.
A mega dungeon floor should a 2x2 of ~20 room dungeons, a la stonehell

>>94768221
NTA, and he seems to be shitposting, but 30 rooms per floor is a good baseline, though you really want to get closer to 40. Without space for empty rooms you cut off a lot of exploration, retreat, and maneuvering.

>>94768221
40 rooms per dungeon level is a pretty good target number. A lair would be about half of that.

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>>94768101
Post the play report anyway and let them cry about it.

Does anyone have any good injury tables? I wanted there to be a chance characters received a serious injury instead of dying when they reached 0 HP.

>>94768101
Todd died because no one gives a shit about it.
>>94768538
Oh yes let's just troll the thread, that will make todd come back!

>>94768568
ACKS

>>94768569
Play reports are more on-topic than meta-discussion about a defunct general

what are some undead custom enemies you guys have cooked up or your favorite more obscure undead? need to give a large and fitting army to a mad necromancer

>>94768807
Then maybe he should post the play reports instead of crying about how todd doesn't exist anymore!

>>94768809
I'm a fan of slapping gimmicks onto existing undead, and if you're willing to convert, 3.5 has a pretty extensive undead stuff.
That being said, I'm a big fan of bloody skeletons that regenerate, and bloated zombies that explode for poison gas when you damage them with a blade.
Bone golems are also very powerful and deadly and already look like a skeleton so you can just say they are undead instead of a golem.
I also wanted a thing where there was a vampire lord with a bunch of thralls as his soldiers, they were full vampires but he intentionally removed all of their eyes so they couldn't charm, but heightened there sense of smell so they had the ability to sniff blood within 120 ft, but had blindsight 30 ft as well.
If you're looking for more special undead types, check out the special infected from Left4Dead, they can all be very easily converted, and would create a myriad of interesting situations

>>94768809
>custom enemies you guys have cooked up
I can't tell you because my players are in this very thread on occasion.

>your favorite more obscure undead
I got good use out of a Barrow Mummy and Black Skeletons from Barrowmaze. 2e had a series of "lords" for each of the major types of undead. There was also an issue of Dragon that dealt with undead giants that spawned more if they killed giants so an adventure hook was presented with giants asking the party for aid.

>>94768538
/tg/ is dying anyways because of the discord hate groups. I don't need to hasten it's demise by intentionally stirring up shit with a "non-approved" OSR system. /osrg/ has turned to shit without me annoying people because of the retarded purity spiral. I remember coming here pre-covid and it was a lot nicer and more welcoming.

Exhibit A >>94768818

>>94768886
ive got an idea for an invisible skeletal giant that only becomes visible within 5 feet.
>i cant tell you this because my players are in this thread on occaison
jack and mikey if you're here fuck off
>>94768857
fuck i still have a ton of pathfinder bestiarys lying around i might try those out

>>94767919
More than 20. I've found 30-40 works well for various groups I've had. I tend to count longer halls as rooms though and roll to key them also.

>>94768055
(you)'re not me and your bait is shit

>>94769103
liar

>>94759565
>The more I look into it, the more I suspect that just straight up having a wargame setup (players controlling factions with a wide range of characters from level 1 to name level, using them as pawns) would be more conductive to this specific type of play.
Having factions like the Orc Horde and Bandit Gang shake things up initially and establish conflicts and agendas helped get the otherwise brand new setting off the ground imo.
Having a big 'ole wargame starting out, with the D&D game beginning after the big battles have been fought, towns have been ruined and populations have been culled could also serve as an interesting setup. Don't anons in these threads occasionally mention that they want post-apoc vibes in their settings?

>>94762616
Sorry I got very busy and I didn't notice that you replied. Okay so if I am stocking the map with lairs, should I be pre-rolling where they are, or pre-construct them and then wait until the party randomly finds one via wandering encounter?

>>94763585
>when the keep on the borderlands doesn't include trainers, taxes, tithes or the same services as 1e
Lmao, this faggot is too shy to ask the corporal of the guard to train him to level two without the written permission of Gary Gygax!

>>94769300
stop hitting (you)rself

speaking of keep on the borderlands, i'm going to run it soon with an AD&D 1e conversion i found on Dragonsfoot as a first time OSR GM (3 years experience 5e) for 3 players
i'm happy with the trainer rules, i'll probably provide a thief NPC trainer, subclasses might have some trouble but indulging a quest to go and find a tutor should they fail a grade that allows them to teach themselves is no skin off my back
the keep has the following services
>bank (money changing, loans and cash storage)
>jeweller (appraisal)
>regular shops + smith
would adding any other services be wise?
additionally, it seems i must provide, some kind of setting or pantheon to provide context to the evil chaos clerics, and
faction dynamics:
>it seems to be orcs + gnolls vs goblins + hobgoblins, though the hobgoblins are quite treacherous and likely to frustrate the goblins at some point
>the evil clerics are by far the strongest and probably enforce stability to prevent all factions, who are admittedly very close to each other, from breaking out into all out conflict
any advice on handling the faction play, running the module or adding needed customisations is very much welcome

>>94770511
i'm also aware the module is for 6 players, i'm going to follow the module's advice in terms of generous hirelings and maybe a starting magic item or two

>>94768575
Isn't that the system written by the guy who wrote an essay about niggers needing to be exterminated?

Decided for 2025 to work on a B/X OSE homebrew. Wish me luck, still not sure which way I will be going with it outside of designing it around Race-Class and level 14 as the limit of power.

must haves for an OSR-themed playlist to write adventures and stock dungeons too?

>>94768101
go ahead and post it

>>94771285
Holy fuck I hope so

>>94771345
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_gObHt1uZA
Put on some Tim Follin and jam.

>>94770511
>would adding any other services be wise?
Not preemptively, only as the need arises, using the buildings with unspecified residents (numbered 7, I believe).

>it seems i must provide, some kind of setting or pantheon to provide context to the evil chaos clerics, and
No, you mustn't.

>adding needed customisations
The Dungeon Under the Keep is a very nice fan-made expansion for going into the sewers below the Keep, but I would only consider it after a few sessions. For the moment, you could only say that the lower part of the Keep has sanitation and the locals pride themselves for it.

>>94770515
Remember Hirelings don't go into dungeons. They might be enticed with a pay that it at least 30 times the normal one, and even then it's not a given they'll accept, and they won't be proactive adventurers and won't do anything that isn't strictly on their job description, that is fighting in formation for mercenaries. No searching, listening, looking for traps, leading the way, and so on. Also they need to be hired in batches and have the appropriate number of officers along.

If it's junior adventurers they want, they'll need henchmen and offer them shares.

Starting magic items: I really wouldn't cheapen them that way.

>>94771285
I've already told you I'm buying it, no need to insist.

>>94771863
I was assuming you make the distinction then between henchman and hireling?

>>94771285
Unfortunately he didn't do anything even close to that.

>>94771923
That's what the comment is saying, not sure what you're asking.

About the factions part, I would improvise it based on player actions and reaction rolls.

>>94771863
>Starting magic items: I really wouldn't cheapen them that way.
Also, magic items are important gateways to be able to defeat certain monsters. You are breaking the game's natural progression by handing them out. Not to mention it suggests an excessive preoccupation for how successful the party will be. Defeat and realising they need more henchmen can be a perfectly successful first session. Better to fail early and learn early than learn nothing and get unduly attached to characters they haven't learnt how to keep alive.

>>94771973
My reply was clearly asking to make sure for personal reassurance that you were doing what I was assuming you were doing, instead of me just taking that for granted. Don't get offended at clarifications.

>>94771863
>Remember Hirelings don't go into dungeons
i really think this is more of a bx thing

>>94770515
>and maybe a starting magic item or two
If I were you, I'd base those on the final party composition:
>no cleric
1 or more healing potions
>no thief
(Nearly depleted) Wand of Trap Detection
>few fighters
DMPC Fighter (level 1) joins on the road. Could be as simple as them being the self-proclaimed "Goblinoid Slayer" in the case of the caves of chaos.

>>94772193
You should try not talking about things you don't understand.

>>94772197
>DMPC Fighter
Fuck off, tourist.

>>94771345
This is a pretty good YouTube channel for that https://www.youtube.com/@dungeonmastersynth

>>94772205
maybe read the dmg then

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>>94772205
Neither PHB nor DMG explicitly forbid hirelings from going into dungeons, as far as I found.
They will instead constantly be subject to morale/loyalty checks, hope you have 18 Charisma.

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>>94771863
>>94772193
>>94772205
>>94772222
>>94772266

>>94772291
literally doesnt say they wont go into dungeons - the only topic of discussion

>>94772266
thanks for backing me up by the way. i would also like to add
>Men-at-arms will only accompany characters encountered on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level of the dungeon. On the 4th or deeper level, all others will be henchmen.
as proof you are meant to be able to hire people full time and then bring them with you

>>94772300
Not the Anon who made the claim, but it's saying functionally the same thing, unless you are willing to argue the point that dungeon's aren't "hazardous duty". If that's the case, go ahead.

>>94772313
>as proof you are meant to be able to hire people full time and then bring them with you
If you pay them 30× the normal wage, there will be a strictly limited and likely irreplaceable number of hirelings willing to go along.

>>94772318
>but it's saying functionally the same thing
no it simply isnt

>Remember Hirelings don't go into dungeons
>unless you pay them
direct opposites

>The supply of men-at-arms willing to work day-to-day is strictly limited, so if the PCs lose them adventuring, more will not be likely to be found
i dont have a hire attrition rate to begin with, but this sentence clearly talks of those who do work day-to-day. As the paragraph talks of daily employment - of PCs trying to cheap out - and not hire people as permanent vassals. Such people willing to work are few and far between, actual men-at-arms want to be hired on a permanent or semi-permanent basis.
"Expert hirelings are generally not available for periods of less than one or more months"
a crossbowmans monthly wage is 2 gold, it is inconsequential to give them such a minor bonus every time you take them to the dungeon even as a first level character

>>94760954
So you got scared and decided to delete the server after 2 days? That's pretty fucking funny.
@neko_____

>>94772378
You think we cannot read? He said:
>Remember Hirelings don't go into dungeons. They might be enticed with a pay that it at least 30 times the normal one [...]
That's what the DMG screenshot I attached above says.

>>94772473
it seems you dont understand sentence structure

HENCHMEN (that includes level zero torch bearers and men at arms) will go into a dungeon, but torch bearers demand hazard pay, and men at arms demand a half share.

HIRELINGS include all of the other sort such as camp followers, mercenaries, and specialists, and will categorically refuse to enter dungeons.

>>94772488
What are you quoting from?

>>94772496
Due to my own prescient abilities, I am quoting from the akashic record

>>94772483
He's got a point, the way it's worded, giving them that 2gp a day only means you as the DM might consider letting them roll to convince the guys to go in there. If you just let them hand the guys 2gp and they charge into the dungeon, that's not consistent with what Gygax is saying. They should at least need a roll, and may request even more money than that, or refuse completely.
>They might be enticed
>might be
>with a pay that it at least 30 times the normal one
>at least

>>94772534
Except they don't charge in, they take a subservient secondary role and will only help when necessary such as in combat, but will not test for traps etc etc

>>94772544
"charge in" was just a colloqualism for "agree to risk their necks without hesitation"

>>94772548
This seems like more of a comment, really

I always wondered what's the point of linkboys and torchbearers if you can't bring them in the dungeon, so I decided you could in fact bring them. Nice to know I've been doing it right after all.

>>94772563
Yeah I'm not sure what the other guys are talking about. Pack boys and torch bearers will definitely come into a dungeon, but they are strictly non-combat.
Men at arms will come into a dungeon but are just zero level fighters.
There are also your special leveled henchmen.

>>94772563
>>94772569
exactly. if NPC parties can bring men-at-arms into the dungeon, how can you sit there and say that for some reason its only the players they wont join
certainly, if you sacrifice your men to personally escape, no one will trust you again, but we are talking about good faith feudalism here

>>94772563
>>94772569
>>94772601
There's no such thing as a "torch bearer" in OD&D, B/X, Holmes, or AD&D, it's a NuSR thing.

If you'd learnt D&D on actual D&D manuals instead of whatever the fuck else you zoomer retards been doing, you wouldn't be having these idiotic notions about normal men risking their lives going into dungeons they have no business being anywhere close to to hold a fucking torch for you so you can have a free hand for 1gp.

>>94772634
>AD&D
Explicitly has porters, link boys, pack bearers, and valets.
I'm sorry if the term torch bearer offends your delicate sensibilities, but that doesn't mean it is somehow an alien concept.

>>94772634
>Linkboy: A linkboy is a torch or lantern bearer. They are often youngsters. but mature men also will so serve.
come on now. i know /toddler/ is gone, but that doesnt mean you have to troll here as well

>>94772692
>UHM OKAY IT HAS TORCHBEARERS FOR HIRE, BUT NOT LIKE I WAS THINKING!!!

>>94772213
>t. level 2 mayor of Rusty Shanktown furiously defending the right of his level 1 constituency to die in 1 round to 40 goblins

>>94760954
>>94760954
This creep is trying to do another Honeypot server, be careful about accepting any discord invites in this thread for a while in this thread for a while

>>94772812
Discord and creepy people go hand-in-hand

>>94772812
He's a bad name to all FAGs