>Do you use starship refueling mechanics in your games?

Generally no, as a regular operating vessel will have years worth of antimatter stored, and deuterium is easy to come by.
For story reasons however it's easy enough to set up. An energy draining field, an alien energy being that feeds off antimatter, Nausicaan pirates stealing it and suddenly fuel does become an issue.
Usually a lack of fuel's only real use is for a ticking clock scenario, but I've been trying to think of other story scenarios where a lack of fuel could be a story beat.

One I've come up with is a ship returning from it's five year mission into deep space with its fuel running out just outside of Federation space, and needing refuelling.
Why they didn't return sooner or fly at a slightly lower warp speed would be part of the plot. And of course other agents are interested in getting their hands on a nearly immobile Federation starship, and whatever knowledge it has collected over its journey.

A second one is 'polluted deuterium' story where some foreign substance in recently gathered deuterium reacts poorly with the warp engine, and the crew ends up having to flush their entire tank.
This'd be for a session in between major events, where you get to split people up into groups doing different things.
Some of them can try to figure out if the pollutant is natural or a deliberate sabotage attempt, others can attempt to aid the scrubbing of the every deuterium tank and fluid pipe in the entire system to turn weeks of cleaning into hours (or find a workaround if they're engineers), and meanwhile a third group can take a shuttlecraft to collect some regular deuterium to jumpstart the engine so they can warp the ship itself to the nearest (clean) deuterium location, as going there on impulse would take way too long.

>>94769743
>Do you use starship refueling mechanics in your games?
Nope, the group goes between starbases frequently because it makes for session plots, so supplies are never a practical concern.

>>94770188
>A second one is 'polluted deuterium' story where some foreign substance in recently gathered deuterium reacts poorly with the warp engine
I like this one, because it's entirely compatible with both sides of the self-sufficiency discussion in the last thread. I prefer the "starbases are for maintenance/transfers, not fuel" thing, as I see little narrative utility in the equivalent of stopping the party at a gas station, but this still works as a hook even if they don't need station refueling.

Could also do this in ways beyond contamination, like have the antimatter swapped to normal matter unexpectedly by passing through a region of space with some kind of "antibaryon inversion field." Now the crew has to cobble together enough power with fusion devices, batteries, and old-fashioned generators to get that tiny bit of antimatter they need to restart the self-sustaining systems. Each false lead or bit of wasted power brings them closer to being completely stranded, and each bit of juice or forgotten battery they find in some Jefferies tube gets them closer to their goal.

Now THAT's the sort of "ticking clock" I prefer, where the players actions or inactions are the things directly moving the hands, and both forwards and backwards. As in, not a clock at all.

As GM I'd also likely have an emergency reserved for one final, high power distress signal (because presumably this would be too far for a regular one to make the whole issue moot - that'd be no fun) - if total power got low enough and they hadn't succeeded, the players would need to choose between gambling survival on sending the distress signal, or gambling survival on trying to restart the drive with that power.

>>94770188
Star trek adventure UTOPIA PLANETIA splat explicitly has respurcing missions and tasks in it to massively expand the engineering side of STA.

Fucking get to it. Its awesome.

Just dont bother BUYING the splat. STA books are printed up in places like Lithuania, and they use cheapass paper and utterly fucked binding and glue. My STA core book is already falling apart despite being practically brand new.

So fuck modiphius. Assholes want to cheap out and STILL charge premium prices, they can just NOT get paid.

>>94771512
I thought cheap book binding was a pretty well solved problem already.

>>94772809
not in the shitholes modiphius prints in. so maybe buy like, the core. and then go right ahead and Yarr Harr Harr the rest.

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Are ressources for dialects of Klingon? I'm trying to reconstruct Proto-Thlingan.
I managed to reduce the alphabet to 16 letters down from 26.

>>94774449
I seriously doubt you'll find much. There's:
https://klingon.wiki/En/Proto-Klingon
...but I assume you've looked at that already.

I feel like refueling can be implied to happen in the background once the ship lands at any sort of base

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>>94776375
In fact I did not. Thank you, the link you've posted helps my working hypothesis. Where do you think I should post my reconstruction attempt?
PS: Look at what I just found.
https://footballbatsandmore.wordpress.com/2024/08/28/klingon-alternative-script/

This isn't the most /tg/ question but I'm curious as to your favourite actors in Trek?
I'll leave out the more one time performances for my own

>Armin Shimerman
I think his performance of quark is one of the more significant contributions to setting the tone for DS9 and reforming the audience perception of the ferengi. he brings a lot of energy and expression and depth to what should have been a bit role, and his acting through excessive makeup is impressive
>Nana Vistor
She brings so much passion and depth to Kira, and delivers maybe a dozen extremely memorable performances and really manages to sell the growth of her character.
>Marc Alaimo
Gul Dukat steals the show every time he's in a scene and becomes the most memorable villain in Trek. He oozes charisma from every pore, he manages to make a slimey space Hitler captivating and compelling, and he delivers some breathtaking performances. Another key element of DS9s success. One of my favourite moments is when DS9 activates the cardassian self destruct sequence. First he plays the smug and gloating superior, reveling in the humiliation of his lessers. then when he tries to beam out and is himself humiliated, he plays the scene with his whole body. he twiddles his thumbs, rocks on the balls of his feet, looks at the ceiling - he adds to what was on the page.
>Robert O'Reilly
What needs to be said about his performance as Gowron. He masters both villainy and acting through makeup, and helps to make the Klingons round out into cunning and political savvy.
>Robert Picardo
He is the bright spot of a bad show, and his performance of what could be a very bland and retreaded idea makes much of voyager watchable. He brings real pathos to the role and the show which frequently lacks that

>>94778775
but anon, all of those characters were actually played by Jeffrey Combs

>>94780368
is it heresy if I say I preferred his performance as Shran to Weyoun?

>>94780405
Why would that be heresy? Shran is certainly his best character, but they're all excellent. The fact we missed out on him becoming a main character in season 5 is an absolute tragedy.

>>94778775
Oh, tough call. Honestly I'm kind of torn between Marina Sirtis (I met her before, she is the NICEST Hollywood actress I've ever met) and Leonard Nimoy (I never met him, sadly, but big fan of Spock and his tasteful nude art featuring rotund women).

>>94778775
Most of them are excellent. It's easier to point out the ones who didn't do so well. Robert Duncan McNeill probably did the worst job of the whole lot, excluding Anthony Montgomery. Garrett Wang, Roxann Dawson, Robert Beltran, and Terry Farrell also struggled most of the time, although unlike the former two they also had good moments and part of their failure can be put down to writing.

>>94780716
It's hard not to feel bad for Robbie B. His character should have been very compelling but between he faux injun magik crap and him immediately becoming the feddiest of the whole crew by pretty much the third episode, he really got done dirty. I think he does well with what he's given
Anthony Montgomery is a good actor - if you need someone to stand wide eyed and unblinking through every line. facial expressions end at the lips, right?

>>94777484
>chud
>people/kin
Qo'nos is rising, billions mus be born.

>watched tuvix again
that episode is a fucking fever dream. he's begging and pleading with everyone not to execute him and no one will stand up for him. what were they thinking

>>94780972
Just shows how charismatic and general great guy ti be around Neelix was.

>>94781303
pretty funny that tuvix was objectively better than either of them at their jobs but he was killed cause kes missed that BTC (big talaxian cock)

>>94780972
and yet in the many years they were on that ship together neither of his constituent parts ever expressed a desire to recreate him

>>94778775
Nana Visitor has grown on me since the show ended its run, I used to see her as the shouty one from the early seasons but now i see her as the catsuit lady one and also, she gets some nice moments

it's also a little weird how chill Kira gets in the last season, but I guess they were playing the together at last angle

>Picardo

Robert Picardo lights up everything he's in

Voyager has a lot of really great performances even in bad episodes (which is more than you can say for early TNG, and VOY is just a remake of TNG with an updated series bible), but honestly the one that holds it together is Kate Mulgrew; she does this really great series of short one-line responses whenever they make contact with home, culminating in "We did it." when they actually see Earth for the final time

compare that to her bombastic "we'll make it" speeches and her occasional suicidal final mission speeches ("You told them. They knew coming in." is a good halfway between each extreme) and it's a very solid long-running choice on Mulgrew's part that Janeway doesn't know and maybe doesn't really believe she'll ever get them home; she's always surprised and always keeps her shit together on the bridge as much as she can, but you can hear that emotion in her performance

really like Connor Trinneer and Dominic Keating's Data n' Geordi double act on Enterprise too

>>94781380
Ocampans give birth through their spine and seem to sweat a lot of secretions so it's unlikely those are mammalian breasts or that she has any orifices hidden away, she's just some gross sub-The Thing species that likes to cuddle

>>94781464
theres no way a tom paris in any timeline would marry a woman without a hole to fuck

>>94769743
>starship refueling mechanics in your games
Yes because making fun of space communism is the best.
I have players make infinite batteries and fuel with replicators and have them dump the warp fuel and empty batteries on savage planets

>>94778775
If we're talking favourite, not best then I have to say that TOS Shatner has grown on me.
Like yes we all know the man is best known for his overacting, but there are also plenty of moments where he delivers a great performance in a serious moment.
There's some genuine moments where you can almost feel the burdens of command weighing on him.

>>94780692
I'm also fond of Marina Sirtis. Her evolution from 'the one with the tits' to 'that's lieutenant commander to you' Troi was great.

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>>94780814
It shows when he was handled an actual character in PRO.

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>>94780870
Haha.

>>94781766
PRO made good use of its cameos. It didn't overuse them, and gave all of them something important to do.

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>>94782213
That's really neat.
Reminds me of the time when I tried learning how to write D'ni after I got obsessed with the Myst games.

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>>94782968
D'ni looks aesthetically pleasing.

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What would a Klingon call a conlanger?
>inb4 smooth head

>>94781450
>chilled out Kira
It's entirely believable to me. Early on, she wears her anger on her sleeve, but keeps other emotions pretty tamped down, because that's how she kept herself going during the occupation. Kira 'mellowing out' feels to me like we're finally seeing the person she would have been in the early seasons if the occupation hadn't happened. Professional, competent - a bit reserved, even. It's less 'together at last' and more 'the wounds are finally closing.'

And it starts earlier than people think - "Duet" is exremely important for solidly setting that in motion for Kira's character and it's in season 1. Goddamn does Visitor sell Kira being apoplectic with righteous fury in that episode, but as soon as she realizes he's not Gul Darhe'el, all of that just vanishes entirely. And Visitor sells that, too - you can see her rage completely deflate the moment she realizes he's Marritza, and realizes she can't allow him to be killed for Darhe'el's crimes. Even if it might give many Bajorans some satisfaction, it wouldn't satisfy the person Kira Nerys actually is underneath.

Her outbursts are usually a response to very specific frustrations or pain she has. This is what is actually happening between her and Dukat - he knows exactly what buttons to press to get those outbursts. Her blowing up at him is because of him deliberately rubbing salt in wounds he knows she has, which is a very Dukat thing to do. He provokes the woman who was a thorn in his side during the occupation and he never could quite control, in any scenario where he knows she can't just shoot him. He knows that's what she wants to do every time she sees his face, so he feels more in control watching her grapple with the fact she can't just vaporize him right there. AND he knows that 'vaporize Cardies on sight' isn't the kind of person Kira Nerys is or ever wanted to be, which to him is another wound of hers to jab at.

And both actors sell that dynamic incredibly well.

>>94781543
ocampans have mouths

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>>94783055
It really does.

>>94781766
>lost his heritage and told he's actually mexican
So someone finally told him it was all made up by a scammer. Total akoochiboohooya moment.

>>94781464
The Caretaker really did a number on them, didn't he. No wonder he felt he could never make up for what he'd done.

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>>94784783

>>94784783
Was the Caretaker actually responsible? Or was it the other Nacene who identified him and his gf as easy mark who could be convinced this was the collective error of their entire exploratory party and those two should stay behind and look after the planet with the destroyed atmosphere, while the rest of them fucked off to keep looking for more neat stuff?

>>94784867
in retrospect it would be a lot funnier if he'd been played by Garrett Wang

>>94778775
For me it's Jolene Blalock. Yeah, you know why.

But after that, it's a tie between Marc Alaimo and Jeffrey Combs.

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>>94784969
Turns out the Caretaker really is the Cletus of his people.
"Yeah, dude, you watch the half-life retards while we all go out for tacos. We'll bring you back some nachos or something."
And he never saw them again.

I dont understand why they did what they did with the femtaker. just a one off episode shes barely in at all and then pisses off? maybe she was supposed to do more with kes and then they wrote kes out for whatever reason.

>>94785294
Because she could solve their problems for them too easily. Basically they just broke even. She wasn't trying to whoop their asses anymore, but she fucked off into her own dimension with Soval leaving them stuck. They may ahve been able to bring her back but apparently they couldn't find the write story that justified it. Similarly how at no point when Q showed up he helped them.

>>94785310
>Similarly how at no point when Q showed up he helped them.
They actively refused help, so he just showed them a shortcut or something.

>>94780972
Probably that their friends also had every right to ask for their own right to exist? If they both agreed that Tuvix had more right to live than they did, they could have easily re-created him.

>>94786210
>they could have easily re-created him
To me, that's the most important part of the dilemma. If separating them out had meant that Tuvix couldn't be reborn, then it would have been a true dilemma because you wouldn't be able to give everyone involved a voice, let alone a choice.

I find it funny that in Twovix (LD episode referencing this one) the mashed together people are further mashed together into one non-sentient organism, so then they're OK with separating all of them out because hey, it's non-sentient, so it's totally more moral than what Janeway did! Meanwhile, they quietly ignore the decision to mash them all together in the first place as if that wasn't the point where all the merged personalities 'died'.

>>94785096
the way she Vulcanspreads in chairs?

>>94785584
>They actively refused help

What was their reason for that?

>>94786448
Among other things.

>>94786210
I mean that's the problem though, the episode doesn't do that. kes has a breakdown because she misses nelix and Janeway confronts Tuvix, who begs everyone to please say a word in his defense and not let her "execute" him. the episode absolutely frames it as an execution, especially the final scene. and then like all voyager episodes there's no coda so neelix just hugs kes and there's no further comment. we don't actually even know if nelix or tuvok are aware of what happened or have any memories of the event, let alone what they think of it. they certainly don't gain any newfound appreciation for each other.

that's such a big problem with voyager in general - so many episodes without a little epilogue. like when the doctor loses his memory at the end of an episode and sings a bit, and it's only addressed slightly a few episodes later with an off hand remark that he's had some memory issues and is slowly recovering. or when kes is possessed and dumps neelix, and they never address that that happened while she was literally possessed by someone else.
imagine if other series were like this, we'd never have garaks "especially the lies" line or Data telling Riker he did the right thing by prosecuting him.

>>94787089
>>94786210
>>94780972
also, a much better version of tuvix as an episode exists, and in the same show: S6E6 Riddles. Tuvok becomes brain damaged and neelix helps him out. its a much better exploration of their characters and the ideas, and has a nice little ending note

>>94785069
They hadn´t planned yet how hard they were to mistreat the character (Kim).

>>94778775
Dwight Schultz. Barclay is a deeply flawed character in a show that was full of paragons, and he could be very uncomfortable to watch on screen. The performance was really emotive and physical, and he managed to make someone who is, frankly, kind of a loser in a world of perfect teachers pets work. it added depth to star trek to have someone who struggled but was treated fairly (in the end) and who had his own strengths, and was both a loser and a kind hearted person.

>>94782968
>>94783055
>>94784144
wish there was something like it for klingon.

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what's your most iconic oneliner in startrek history?
I'll start

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>>94789083
This is the one that comes to mind.

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>>94789083

>>94789083
https://youtu.be/TVgsuLBOHKI?t=349

>>94786697
>What was their reason for that?
"That would be cheating"
Or maybe it was Janeway being a prude and not wanting to put out.
I think it was the Q civil war stuff?
Been a decade or so since I watched VOY.

>>94789612
it was the suicidal q thing. if they'd denied him asylum and mortality Q would have sent voyager back home

>>94789612
Q's entire "humanity on trial" shtick is one huge keikaku to avert a timeline where humanity is completely assimilated. When he discovered the Caretaker had pulled a psychopath into the Delta Quadrant, he realised he could use this to set up a row of dominos that would end with her blowing up the Transwarp hub.

>>94787408
Neelix and Tuvok are a really easy to miss pair, but they were used so well together throughout the run

>>94789612
Q appears in Voyager three times;

on the first appearance, in "Death Wish", the episode ends with Quinn's death and Q's thanks to Janeway and Voyager for showing Q -

>TUVOK: You assisted his suicide?
>Q: Illogical, Tuvok? 1 don't think so. By demanding to end his life, he taught me a little something about my own. He was right when he said the Continuum scared me back in line. I didn't have his courage or his convictions. He called me irrepressible. This was a man who was truly irrepressible. I only hope I make a worthy student.
>JANEWAY: I imagine the Continuum won't be very happy with you, Q.
>Q: I certainly hope not. Au revoir, Madam Captain. We will meet again.

no shortcut is provided (it wouldn't play well with audiences if, tonally speaking, Q rewarded Janeway for allowing him to kill Quinn on her ship, even if that was what Quinn had been asking for all along), but the following episode introduces Denara, who is critical to Voyager escaping Vidiian range with Janeway and Chakotay cured of their otherwise incurable disease

in his second appearance, in "The Q and the Grey", the upheavals caused by Quinn's death cause a Q civil war; Q offers to mate with Janeway but, as scripted (though it may be implied), only briefly offers to return Voyager home if Janeway remains in the Continuum; that episode culminates in the birth of Junior, Q's son, who appears in "Q2" as a young adult (the following episode "Macrocosm" is another sickness episode); no shortcut is provided although Voyager was taught a means of increasing shield strength by a factor of 10 using only Starfleet tech;

in his final appearance, in "Q2" -

>Q: I did a little homework for you. Consider it a thank you for everything you did for Junior.
>JANEWAY: Not that I don't appreciate it, but this will only take a few years off our journey. Why not send us all the way?
>Q: What sort of an example would I be setting for my son if I did all the work for you?

>>94787089
>the episode doesn't do that
I was just responding to why no one "stood up for him": because it wouldn't make sense for anyone to do so.
> the episode absolutely frames it as an execution
Sure? Executing a living being so he'll stop keeping two other living beings from being dead is still an execution, just not a particularly thorny one.

>>94791669
>murder isn't a particularly thorny issue
This is where moral relativism gets you

>>94793735
proving murder requires proving intent, which we went over a few weeks back and you cried about it like mens rea doesn't exist in whatever backwater you're from

but it certainly exists in the Federation (there's a whole show about proving Worf's intentions in firing on a ship, which would prove his guilt if his intention had been as claimed), so at the bare minimum the requirement would be to prove Janeway intended to murder Tuvix

given Tuvix isn't even officially born and was composed of two other beings who at that time couldn't speak for themselves but who had, by your claimed standard of murder, been "murdered" to create him it's questionable whether Federation law covers his rights (it doesn't cover the rights of artificial beings well at all, as Data found out some 20 years after joining Starfleet and you know like for the next 40 years as well, and it doesn't cover the rights of the Doctor despite it "feeling" like he's got person like qualities)

at that point you're arguing that Janeway should be tried for murder without intent to commit murder being proven (because you feel like she's guilty), that her trial should be used to change Federation law on artificial beings without reference to whatever legislative bodies are actually responsible for such changes, and that the two beings who were "murdered" - again, your words - by Tuvix in the act of his own creation should be prevented from testifying the obvious: that they didn't want to be Tuvix, or to have Tuvix created from them, since they never chose to become Tuvix or restore a "copy" of Tuvix to life

in other words the judge would laugh you out of the court

>>94793735
If Janeway ordered Harry to go into a chamber filled with deadly radiation to press the radiation go away button before it ate through the box Tuvok and Neelix are sheltering inside, how would you feel?

>>94793778
I wasn't here a few weeks ago, but I do happen to be a lawyer and also well-read in philosophy and ethics. She definitely committed murder under law, and she also violated the principle of double effect. I'm more interested in the morality of the issue though you definitely seem to care more about the legality of it under a fictional set of laws.
>no intent to commit murder
She definitely intended to and did in fact kill him. Your argument under intention seems to be based on the fact that she didn't believe he was a sentient life form because he wasn't born, and therefore that she couldn't possibly form the intent to kill a sentient life form required to constitute murder. What? Heaps of species in Star Trek aren't born but you can still murder them. Remember when Picard stopped them from blowing up the Crystalline Entity? Hell, Picard stopped them from slaughtering the Borg even though they're created rather than born and have no free will. There's also Changelings, godlike aliens, etc who aren't born.
>comparing Data with Tuvix
Data is a computer program, that is the reason for his being overlooked in the law, which in my view was already dodgy but could be considered to be realistic considering that the law is usually behind technological advances. Nevertheless, he was deemed sufficiently sentient that he could get a Starfleet commission, while you are saying that this is equivalent to Tuvix being literally murdered, let alone wearing a uniform.
>Tuvix murdered Neelix and Tuvok
He didn't exist until after they ceased to exist, nor did he have any agency until after that point in time. Even if he had deliberately murdered them, that does not give rise to a right to murder him in turn.

>>94793816
I would feel good because he wouldn't be in the rest of the show. But the thing with morality and legality is that even tiny differences in circumstance can change things dramatically. In this case, Kim would be fulfilling his duty as a Starfleet officer to follow orders and save lives. Aside from the fact that Tuvix was not a Starfleet officer, his murder did not save lives, but instead created new lives.

Another thing with this view is that it provides the corollary that since there is no harm done by Janeway's actions, you could repeat them ad nauseum with no moral implications. Why not re-enact the accident repeatedly and then fix it the same way every time? Or not fix it, and see which combinations function the most optimally. Fewer crew members would be less of a drain on resources after all.

>>94789612
>>94786697
>>94785584
It's also in the episode with Q Junior. Q claims he can't just whisk them back home because what sort of example would that set for the boy. Huge ass copout to something they couldn't just have happen anyway.

>JANEWAY: Not that I don't appreciate it, but this will only take a few years off our journey. Why not send us all the way?
>Q: What sort of an example would I be setting for my son if I did all the work for you?

This after dropping his dumbass boy on them and running.

>>94794059
There's two arguments I see brought up. The first is that Q can see the entire timeline, so he knows everything will work out alright. This might be refused by times when we see that Janeway dies, such at the episode where the ship is fractured in time and they meet future Naomi and Icheb. However it could be argued that this was a possible timeline that wasn't going to happen once everything was reset anyway. Or it ties into the second reason given, which is that mortals are such fleeting creatures anyway to a Q they figure, "well, it sucks, but next time I blink they'd probably die of old age anyway. No need to be a Douwd about it."

steven universe also had a tuvix thing and they decided killing was bad mkay but maybe if it had have been guaranteed to work they could have gone the other way

>>94794082
this post reminded me that voyager has way too many time travel bullshit episodes, maybe even more than enterprise.

>>94793735
Allow two upstanding members of Starfleet to remain dead when you could restore them to life is murder too, though. There's no way around it: someone has to die for others to live in this scenario. So since murder is happening no matter what, you have think through who gets to live and who doesn't.

>>94794258
>Allow two upstanding members of Starfleet to remain dead when you could restore them to life is murder too, though.
This is false. Not resurrecting someone is not the same as murdering someone. If you truly believe this is equivalent, I encourage you to do literally any reading on morality. Your purely utilitarian moral relativist ethics of "just choose the option in which more people are alive at the end of the episode" ignores the fact that it is asking you to murder someone as opposed to not murder someone. You can start here https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/double-effect/

>>94794168
The worst offender, I think, was the Voyager episode where we first met Braxton. We find out Future Starfleet will send agents back if they discover someone "out of their timezone" (but maybe just around the Earth). But how often do we see THAT happen? Where was the 29th century time cops to arrest the Borg for trying to fuck with Cochrane's warp flight? Which I'll admit is a what if I'd pay to see.

I guess the same rules apply as here >>94794082 where either Daniels and the boys know it'll be solved by someone else so they can't be arsed, or they keep getting wiped out by interference in the past and need someone else to save them first. Only then they can interfere. They really need to invest in some temporal shielding for when someone, say for instance, yanks Archer out of his place in the timeline and turns Earth into a graveyard. You know, so they have bases and ships and personnel who can fix that shit. I mean come on, even Janeway figured temporal shielding in OP's pic related.

>>94794395
>Not resurrecting someone is not the same as murdering someone.
If you have the capability of restoring someone to life and don't, that is no different to letting them die. It's absolutely insane to say "Ah yes, the amalgation creature with no legal status in the Federation at large and have lived all of a month definately has more right to live than two Starfleet officers".
>But he was made a Lieutenant!
Because Janeway made him one because she's the commanding officer of the ship. Would it hold up in the greater Federation? Who knows. All we know is that no one missed the dude when he was gone.

>>94794457
>If you have the capability of restoring someone to life and don't, that is no different to letting them die.
You are totally incorrect. And if you are the anon who was arguing that legality means more than morality and that murder is legal in Starfleet, well not resurrecting someone is certainly legal.
>"Ah yes, the amalgation creature with no legal status in the Federation at large and have lived all of a month definately has more right to live than two Starfleet officers".
What is this "right to live" terminology? It is just twisting words, like abortionists do. You are "pro-choice", wherein you believe someone should have the right to murder other people even when no one's life is at stake (other than the victim's). Neither Tuvok, Neelix, nor Tuvix have any right to live. This does not mean that Janeway has a right to murder any of them.

>>94794448
i assume the rule is that they only fuck with changes to their known timeline, IE the timeline that the Time Cops were aware of when they were able to establish and quantify such a thing. So, from their perspective, that shit that happened Was Canon, and thus preventing previous temporal events was itself temporal interference.

but also, it was gay bullshit that made voyager and ENT worse, because berman was a hack fraud, etc.

Is it just me, or does it always feel a little petty, or even spiteful, when starfleets get anal with bajorans about wearing their earrings in uniform? Theyre usually so tolerant of customs and beliefs and rituals, oftentimes to a fault, so the earring phobia feels pointed.

>>94793778
The fact that you think literally existing doesn't warrant an 'officially born' record is probably why you keep losing these arguments. Janeway got away with a fast one to save her friend way out in the delta quadrant where it falls under captains preference, not because teleporting people apart is approved of.

>>94795281
In the good canon, uniform codes and their enforcement on a ship are the captain's discretion. Being anal about earrings is more a statement on the captain than Starfleet. There'd probably be Starfleet regulations about the kind of things captains can't mandate, though.

>>94794612
Picard maneuver and run over both tracks.

>>94794612
Third track, hit Janeway instead

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>>94795890
Anon, please, you don't have to go to a completely different series for a solution.

>>94795865
Picard (and Riker) sure hated their junior officers.

>>94795842
Oh? So you think that Tuvix should be reborn against the will of his constituent parts?

Tuvix is a state of mind. Just because he smiles and eats chicken doesn't make him an individual.

>>94793859
>She definitely committed murder under law,

In order to commit murder she would have had to have killed (permanently ended the life of) an individual who existed under law. Since Tuvix could theoretically be recreated, it is not technically possible to murder him (this is also true of anybody who has been through a transporter and clearly not part of the corpus of Federation law, but worth bearing in mind).

Assuming for the moment that as a synthetic creation Tuvix has rights - which is not the case under Federation law as explored ad nauseum pre and post Tuvix - those rights do not override the rights of his constituents (Tuvok and Neelix) who have no other advocacy but Janeway. To say turning Tuvix back into his constituents is murder is to say that their deaths in creating him was also murder; Tuvix is guilty of manslaughter at least, since he's well aware of the cause of his existence and at no stage offers any remedy but "I am Tuvix and you will accept me". Remedies exist (transporter cloning, for example). He also makes no allowances for the grief of his constituents' friends or lovers and seeks to take on their belongings, relationships etc as though he were his constituents, which, if he can be murdered by reverting to them, he is not.

Tuvix is therefore far from the innocent he's presented as, and we could be talking about whether Starfleet or the Federation can impose the death penalty and whether this is proportionate for Tuvix' crimes (again, two counts of manslaughter, sexual harassment of Kes, etc etc). But that is an aside.

>>94797272
>>94793859

>Your argument under intention

If you were a criminal lawyer - which you clearly aren't - you'd understand mens rea a little better than skimming wikipedia like this.

Janeway's intention is to recover her missing crewmembers. Tuvix is not a member of her crew; jus sanguis does not apply to transporter malfunctions. Tuvix believes he is a real person - so did the command crew of DS9 when turned into a holodeck program. Recovering them "murdered" the sapient holograms in that program. Nobody is suggesting that Hippacrates Noah be restored to life on the holodeck - he has fewer rights than Moriarty.


You contend that by the fact of Tuvix being restored to his constituent parts he is murdered; his constituents do not even contend this, ever. Janeway does not contend this, and certainly does not intend that it when she ordered Tuvix restored into Tuvok and Neelix. Only Tuvix contended - twice - that it would be murder, once when confronted with the realities of his existence (that he had tried to take up the lives of two deceased crew), as a matter of pathos rather than logos, once when he was taken to be restored into his constituents. At that time he also stated that he forgave the actions of the crew - though in a murder trial this would be irrelevant, it's relevant here since Tuvix could, theoretically, have been restored at any time had his constituents so wished.

Janeway's intention is clear at every step - not to commit murder, but to advocate for the two members of her crew who are not, in fact, dead according to Federation medicine and therefore according to Federation law, but who cannot speak for themselves. She has a great deal of precedent behind her decision - Janice Lester/Jame Kirk became a hybrid and were forcibly restored; James Kirk and his "Other Kirk" who also wanted to live; the Mariposa clones of the Enterprise-D crew; Paradan replicants etc.

>>94797277
>>94797272
>>94793859
Tuvix' stated intention is to keep Tuvok and Neelix from being restored; given that they are clearly not dead under Federation law, there is a significant argument for trying Tuvix for murder. A man who kills to survive may or may not be innocent of murder; it depends on who he kills and why he kills them. Tuvix states that he does not want Tuvok and Neelix restored; he frames this as self-preservation but it is a baser self-interest. He stands to inherit two estates and seeks to inherit the relationships and positions of influence associated with those estates. The concept of transporter duplication should be well known to him - he has all of Tuvok's memories. He never suggests it as a remedy, so that the three of them could exist simultaneously. He understands that those estates and relationships would not be lost on his dissolution.

Therefore Tuvix' own base self-interest is the motivating factor in denying life to Tuvok and Neelix. They are not given a choice and only Janeway can, legally speaking, advocate for them. She is their captain and responsible for their rights being respected. Tuvix chooses not to do so. That alone is not enough to convict him or her of murder, but as medically speaking Tuvix is no more an original being than Ronin/Crusher, Locutus, Graves/Data, Masaka/Ihat/Data, Komar/Tuvok, Kollos/Spock, Remmick et al/Parasite, Spock/Henoch, Ux-Mal/O'Brien/Data/Troi etc etc Janeway has no legal reason to believe Tuvix destruction constitutes murder under Federation law. Her crew, from her perspective, are captives of this interloper. Her intention, as stated, is to advocate for them and, when advocacy met with intransigence, to free them forcibly. That is not murder.

>>94797290
>>94797277
>>94797272
>>94793859
While it is true she could have preserved Tuvix as a third party, her decision not to do so is clearly based on that same intention of meeting her crew's best interest. Tuvix is not alive; the ability to mash two crew members together or to endlessly duplicate them via transporter does not carry with it the right to do those things. Returning the status quo - in the legal rather than fictional sense - is a necessary and just act which does not overstep the boundaries of a captain's authority. Preserving or in this case restoring Tuvix at the expense of Tuvok and Neelix simply because it is possible to do so would be a wild abuse of a captain's authority and the technologies at a Starfleet ship's disposal. Moreover, in Tuvix' specific case it might very well explicitly violate Federation law on genetic manipulation.

>>94797302
>>94797290
>>94797277
>>94797272
>>94793859

In passing, if we were to argue that the restitution of Tuvok and Neelix was a death sentence for Tuvix specifically because it was possible to duplicate him via the transporter and then, assuming both duplicates could agree to which of them was to "die" and not simply assert a further novel right to life and reproduction as a species via transporter duplication, this would raise the question of why any deceased crewmember's last transporter pattern is not simply restored when that crewmember suffers an untimely death - that too raises questions about the rights of the individual, and of transporter clones generally, where we might easily argue that if cloning the deceased is legitimate (as in the purported "fix" for Tuvix/Tuvok/Neelix) then cloning by necessity is also legitimate, leading to captains duplicating, say, a chief engineer in an emergency, and potentially reintegrating them (as the 29th century Federation does with alternate timeline versions of individuals). But if in that scenario an individual has rights whether clone or original then there is no fix for Tuvix/Tuvok/Neelix and nothing to stop, say, a Braxton or Maxwell endlessly duplicating himself without any right of any other being to prevent that, in order to preserve his methods, thinking or politics at the expense of others. Effectively, we would be leglislating for the rights of grey goo.

I think its maybe just a poorly written episode.

>>94797290
Pretty fucking sure transporter duplicates aren't supposed to be a solution in starfleet, and none of the writing of the series holds up at all if you ever do consider them

>>94800236
Cloning is considered illegal/unethical in a sort of broad rule for the sake of storytelling. Also most instances of transporter clones or anomalies aren't just from user error but some extra specific and rare outside circumstances that are not easily replicated.

Picard should have executed Thomas Riker for not being an individual who existed under law.

>>94801133
He more or less did when he first met them and said, "Great, now I have a Number One AND a Number Two." Savage.

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>>94777484
Excuse me responding to your post a second time. Do you think https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Klingonese and/or https://www.frathwiki.com/Klingon/lexicon are good sources?
>>94789026
Seconding.

>>94801386
I do love how Kingon writing looks like it's written by carving a knife into a table.

>>94801534
I like how you capitalize just by making the letter bitter by making it a bigger carving, and also slightly fancier.

>>94797272
>Just because he smiles and eats chicken doesn't make him an individual.
holy jim crowe, batman...

Is harry kim the biggest cuck in trek? even odo eventually gets the girl

>>94803460
Regular character? Most likely. The ones below him were not even deemed worthy of having a love interest (Mayweather).

Jeri Ryan does such a hilarious impression of Picardo in Body and Soul lol. just completely taking the piss

>>94803977
The benefits of inadvertently hiring a good actress.

>>94803983
>The benefits of inadvertently hiring a good actress.
and only letting her act in one episode lol

>>94803989
Hey, hey there! Careful with those ideas. What next, make sure every actor has a defined character?

>>94797997
but anon this sort of existentialist autism is one of the best parts of Trekkie fandom

>>94802340
Now I'm imagining a drunk Klingon, hunched over his bar table.
His hand holding a knife the way a baby holds a spoon.
Biting his tongue in concentration, his nose almost touching the wood.
His picked mind has written such prose insulting his enemies' honor that it deserves capitalization.
>"Oh yeah, oh yes"
He slurs, in that characteristic deep growl Klingons have
>"I'm going to carve the FUCK out of this F"

>>94794612
Quantum clone Tuvok and Neelix

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>>94808063
"Dammit, Captain, now you've just DOUBLED the ethical dilemma!"
"What do you mean?"
"Now there are TWO Tuvix's each with their own unique being! You can't simply murder one person because you have a spare!"
"Fuck it, how is this getting me coffee exactly?"

>>94808217
It worked for Harry Kim

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>>94808217
Archer: "Hold my beer."

>>94808397
Spare Kim replaced one blown out into space.

>>94808551
Similitude is Tuvix properly done. One of my favourite episodes.

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Cardassia did nothing wrong

>>94808551
god i wish we got more shran.

>>94809221
timey wimey Waaaaaaaagh shit wasted so much screen time on ENT and probably is the real reason we lost out on S5. ENT would have been go tier if it was just about the federation FOUNDER races and their coming together to build the federation.

>>94809358
i honestly dont know what was worse for ent, the temporal cold war bullshit or the EXPANSE rehashing the dominion war + voyager in the most boring way possible. how on earth they missed out on the extremely obvious winning formula of more founding races drama and way more shran is beyond me.

also, i dont want to sound like a redditor, but almost every episode feels like it centers around the three white guys, who just dont have very strong personalities besides archer. I think it might have been smart to take a page from later era voyager and from DS9, and slowly introduce new cast members from diverse backgrounds - in ENTs case members of various founding races, but also it would have at least been interesting to have someone from whatever is happening in china, russia, the middle east, africa - anywhere else on earth. trip, malcom and archer just have very boring backgrounds when taken together, and they dont make earth feel like a dynamic place. they make it feel like cornfields and stuff brits.

An arab who references the previous sectarian violence in the middle east when dealing with fractious aliens, a chinese who talks about the importance of individual expression when dealing with an authoritarian, an african who makes an argument that interfering in a pre warp society is not unlike colonialism - these are at least fucking ideas. never mind what you could get with more actual aliens.

but no, we need a fifteenth episode of how malcom is uptight and trip is just a good ol boy. at least archer being a classic american maverick is interesting in a captain.

>>94809358
There's a method behind their madness. Namely they felt that if they did NOT add time travel to ENT, the show being a prequel, nobody would take the drama seriously. For instance how do you sell the Xindi destroying the Earth? We know the Earth survives.

There is, of course, a logical disconnect which evaded them, at least until season 4. This is that it didn't really MATTER. When the Borg went back in time to stop First Contact of course we knew Earth and the Federation would be fine. That was a foregone conclusion. We still wanted to see how our scrappy heroes were going to get the job done. The time travel didn't really matter, the Queen was never going to win. Same with any of it. Voyage Home we knew they'd be fine in the end, but it was amusing to see them running around on (then) modern Earth. They finally realized this by season 4, but too little too late.

>>94809577
and obviously the most interesting How here is the How of the foundation of the federation, which they somehow missed

>>94789083
>Time's up.

It so wonderfully sums up everything wrong with Insurrection, and where Trek was as a series. A story that originally ended with Picard offering the villain mercy, and the villain somberly accepting his fate, was changed to an idiotic pun and F Murray Abraham screaming as he explodes. You could encapsulate the TNG films with just that scene.

>>94809633
Ah, but get to know that the most incompetent human starship captain since Michael Jankowski is there at the signing of the charter giving a speech (while his un-promoted crew is in the peanut gallery), and later gets to high office.

>>94809824
that's a good point, did anyone in ENT ever get a promotion at any point?

>>94810012
The files on the Defiant show Hoshi got promoted up to the dizzying heights of LtCDR.

>>94809358
It didn't help that the show couldn't decide if it wanted to be a show about Humanity's first baby steps into the wider universe, or a show about a bunch of heroes saving the universe.

It'd be like having a show about Columbus' voyage to America, where half the season is spend crossing the Atlantic and then suddenly they time travel to WW2 where Columbus's three vessels have to fight in the Battle of Leyte Gulf to ensure American victory, only to then travel back to the middle of the Atlantic.

The first season of a show, that is so important for it to find its footing and for the actors to get into their roles, was almost entirely wasted on the Temporal Cold War arc.

So we can all agree that ENT is not canon and just a holo novel, right?

>>94813635
Everything from Enterprise onward is a branching timeline caused by the Borg incursion in First Contact.

>>94809221
>>94809358
>>94813481
The thing with ENT is they showed us they could do good Trek, and got cut down right before hitting the stride the whole "early Federation history" plotline was developing towards. The missteps weren't catastrophic in a way that would have prevented them hitting their stride with the war between Earth and Romulus, either, IMO.

ENT arcs are at their Trek best with the storyline dealing with humanity - the new kid on the block - bringing the grizzled, bitter rivals of Sol's neighborhood together. Providing neutral ground that has something in common with every member of the founding species, but no real hatred for any of them.

There is some aspect of 'humanity' as a concept not limited to 'homo sapiens' that one can easily apply to every founding species, which is core to the ideals of the Federation. It would have been great to see that develop on screen from the foundation already built in ENT by the end... but oh well.

I guess that's part of what irks me the most about one of STD's later themes - it tries to do a similar thing, but by first launching itself into the future, destroying a literal utopia that's been there for a literal millennium, and then giving the credit for building the next utopia to one of the most Mary Sues to ever Mary Sue.

>>94813676
Multiverse theory is stupid. Everything is canon. ENT's final episode was a holonovel but the rest of it wasn't, and the final episode actually happened since it wasn't a fictional novel but a historical recording or simulation.

>>94814018
>the rest of it wasn't,
Worse: The rest is the EU of the holo novel based on a true story.
Then it got nukes when a Ferengi consortium acquired the rights and made their own seqprequels

voyager is kinda wonky in that the last two seasons are actually really quite good. it doesnt have many great episodes but the last two seasons has a lot of good episodes. once they finally let go of the idea that voyager had to be constantly on the edge of destruction and drama and let it be trekky, it got pretty good.
>riddles
>pathfinder
>blink of an eye
>memorial
>childs play
>good shepard
>life line
>repression
>critical care
>shattered
>body and soul
>repentance
>the void
>friendship one
a lot of these could have been in earlier seasons too

>>94814193
I just hit season 5 in my rewatch, I'll let you know if I agree. I've seen it countless times and each time I have a favourite season. Seasons 4-6 used to be my favourite just because of Seven, and then later I found I like 1 most, and then later I liked 3, but on this rewatch it's been hard to pick one season that's better than any of the others. I hope you're right because it's been a slog.

>>94814241
i just finished a rewatch and i found the middle to be the most difficult. at the start theyre picking the low hanging fruit, the obvious stuff that comes from their premise. and its a good premise so it works, even if theres some really bad episodes. then the middle for me is a slog of floundering where they dont know what to do with the concept anymore. and then at the end they just go fuck it and do some trek
blink of an eye, childs play, critical care and the void are all, imho, really good
picardo is what makes the series watchable for me, though. hes just fun

>>94813635
Nah man. Just because ENT dropped the ball doesn't make it not Trek.
Enterprise is Trek that failed to live up to its potential, but it's still Trek.
Keep the 'not Trek' label for shows that actually deserve it, like Discovery.
Enterprise tried and failed, Discovery never tried at all. And that difference matters.

>>94814353
I love the Doctor and Picard's performance, but I also think Tuvok is underrated, and once Seven joins we get a nice anti-social trio which is very pleasant to watch. It's a shame the other characters are so far behind these ones that I have been known to fall asleep during their episodes.

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>>94814420
Not being canon doesn't mean it's not Trek.
Is Spock summoning Satan canon?
Maybe not. but it sure is Trek.

I like it? It's canon.
I don't like it? It's not canon.
Simple as.

ENT can't be cannon because the show isn't horny enough and is too perverted. all the hornieness comes from women in compromising situations instead of extremely horny adults consenually being freaks as casually as possible.
It's only trek if the women are horny - so the only real ENT episode is the one where phlox's wife is trying to bang trip and phlox is into it, but only just barely because trip is too repressed to pork her

The best ENT episode is the one where Trip convinces an alien in a government-enforced threesome that she deserves human rights so she kills herself and the government cuts off ties to Earth. Perfect usage of the pre-Prime Directive setting.

>>94814740
Based; therefore, TOS is canon, TAS is canon, TNG is canon, DS9 is canon, VOY is canon outside of "Fury", and ENT is canon outside of "These are the Voyages".

>>94815109
fury sucks so bad why did they do that to Kes

>>94813635
Yes. Thanks to johnathsn frakes being a raving egomaniac, ENT isn't even off in its own AU, its just in-universe fiction. ENT is just Dixon Hill 'novels' tier pulp.

>>94815013
See the thing is though, the people of ENT aren't meant to be the more evolved humans of TOS and beyond. They're normies like you and me, but not in a condescending way like the Ferengi and Section 31 were also meant to be stand-ins for present-day people.
At least not intentionally condescending.

>>94809027
Incorrect: even the great Gul Dukat, in the end, admitted his error: that he was too kind. He was too soft on the Bajorans. His greatest mistakes was not working them harder, not treating them like the vermin they truly are. The entire quadrant would've been better off if Cardassia had mined Bajor to the core and killed every last one of those ridge-nosed earring wearing fucks.

>>94815940
That's the thing I liked about later Trek, which, naturally, some people loathe. There IS no "more evolved" humanity. Principals aren't the same as evolution. They're ideas, ideals. It's a choice to behave enlightened and not everyone can do that. Some people also slip up, fall into bad habits, or just get in over their head. DS9 is all about that. It has one of my favorite lines, "It's easy to be a saint in paradise." During the hard times, the times that try men's souls, when you're living through hell? It's hard to be that better person.

And I get why some people hate that, feel that it's anti-Roddenberry. But to me it's quintessential Trek from the TOS era. There are so many episodes that deal with this. Arena, A Taste of Armageddon, The Savage Curtain, The Omega Glory, and oh hell there's a good half dozen more at least. Kirk knew that there were times when men were little better than savages, and how easy it was to get pushed into that role. The trick was just to tell yourself you won't be that way, and keep doing so. It's certainly not easy, but it can be done. Come to think of it, that's even brought up in Farscape when Harvey reminds Crichton to consider Kirk as he was, "Savage when he had to be!" God, that show was also amazing at exploring the depths (often the very dark depths) of humanity.

>>94815987
I mean he and his people also lost. Hard to say that was done without making any mistakes along the way.Didn't we have a conversation a thread or so ago about Dukat keeps attaching himself to bigger monsters? First the Dominion and when they weren't enough the Pah-Wraith. He keeps thinking somehow he's an equal partner in these relationships too

>>94816016
>>94815987
I for one wait for STO running out of ideas to the point they bring in Super Sayian Pah-Wraith Dukat as the next big bad. Sounds better than the multiverse bullshit.

>>94809425
I would've enjoyed more T'Pol time.

>>94816231
They better get on that shit. Marc's not getting any younger.

>>94816007
For some people, the idea of a utopia made by fallible human hands is impossible to grasp.

>“We’re human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it!"
>"We can admit that we’re killers, but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes… knowing that we’re not going to kill today.”

We look at the Einsteins, Ghandis, Mr Rogers, Bob Rosses and Steve Irwins of today as exceptional human beings, but they are all just human beings just like you or I.
The "evolved humanity" of Trek is a future where humans are essentially the same as we are today but also instead of the rare few, every single human is given the means and opportunity to become their very best selves.
And of these, enough will choose voluntarily to support, maintain, grow and if needed, defend the system that supported them.

>>94815987
Would that realistically have been possible?
The Cardassians sure put up a big spiel about how how easy it was to conquer Bajor and how Cardassian rule was inevitable, but there were plenty of signs to indicate that conquest of Bajor had been a major undertaking that had taken quite a toll on them.

The need for slave labor, the lack of infrastructure development or settling of Cardassian citizens, the immediate strip-mining and frankly, the inability to prevent rebel uprisings and terrorist attacks on a planet where they had full control of both air and space all indicated that while victorious, Cardassia was in desperate need of resources and manpower afterwards.

>>94816333
yeah anon we all like perky tits, it goes without saying

>>94816446
I mean, I think it's entirely possible that the Cardassians could've killed all of the Bajorans. Considering how trivial it is for the Federation I don't imagine that it would be beyond the means of a middling power like the Cardassians.

I don't think there's really any way, even in the turbo-communist space future of Star Trek, that you can stop guerrilla warfare. The Dominion was even more ruthless than Cardassia and they couldn't stop the Cardassians from rising up and using terror tactics while in arguably a stronger position over Cardassia than the Cardassians were over Bajor.

I vaguely recall the Federation being reticent to get into a war with Cardassia not because they feared the spoon, but because they didn't want to get bogged down in a war they'd be fighting for years.

>>94816574
I know some of you are shoot homosexuals and some of you prefer Hoshi.

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>>94789083

>>94816775
>baby yoshi wins the vole fight championship
That, Sisko, is an O'Brien baby!

>>94816874
He was more than a baby. He was a union man.

>>94789083
>mother, get undressed this instant!

>>94816903
Should have served under Sinclair then.

>>94801386
Meant for >>94776375

>>94818795
I'm sorry, that was the only resource I found, a bit into a brief online search. Seemed like it'd be useful to you, but I'm not super familiar with it. I can only suggest doing some more online searches for Klingon language resources and looking more pages in than you're used to (online search has gotten really bad these days).

>>94780405
Not at all; Shran was great, and would have been moved to main cast if Enterprise had gotten another season.

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M'Ress in SNW S3?

Question: if getting Archer´d is getting threatened with being spaced, is full Archer´d actually getting spaced?

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>>94826592
I don't see why not.

>>94826592
Worse, it means having to sit there and listen to him talk more. You'll wish you had been spaced.

I wondered why the thread was so slow, had to check the archive. Woof, that was a mess. Shame we can't talk about certain things, since stories about social issues are Star Trek's bread and butter. Often less than subtle about it, too. Let That Be Your Last Battlefield stands out (love The Riddler's guest appearance!) then ENT did that one with the totally not Taliban suicide bombers. I don't know if they can do stories like that anymore. It used to be charmingly corny.

Has anyone tried to do a Very Special Episode gaming session? I'm just curious. Probably safer to keep to wacky space adventures.

>>94780405
Nah, there are many different flavors of Jeffrey Comb, so if someone prefers one over the other, well, they're still all great! I prefer his Weyoun, but then it's hard to imagine the Dominion without him. He of course wasn't the first Vorta but he really made them what they are. He and Hertzler are like that, building backstories for their characters to help them get into the proper headspace for approaching certain scenes, and sometimes they get it into the script. With Hertzler it was Martok talking about his father in the episode with Kor, to explain why ultimately Martok could honor the warrior sacrifice but not forgive the man. It's funny because up to that moment they writers were focused more on fleshing out the Jem'Hadar and showing the weren't all mindless brutes or drug controlled soldier slaves, but when Weyoun made the scene plans shifted. He didn't just push the focus onto the Vorta, they actually created the idea that Vorta are clones too just to bring him back.

At the same time Combs did this for the Andorians. Got to admit, the Imperial Guard had some STYLE. Nice ships, kind of assholes but still respectable soldiers. Shran had that interesting combination of honor and being uncompromising. The slow earning of respect between him and Archer, and his resistance to being ordered to betray them in the Delphic Expanse but orders are orders, only to still help them in the end. He really is one of the best things the show gave us outside of some of the ship designs! I lament what could have been, what >>94820220 said about him being bumped to full cast member. He would have made an interesting microcosm, his ultra nationalism slowly giving ground to idealism and cooperation with other beings is a great way to frame the way these very disparate groups came together to form the Federation.

>>94832212
shran basically was the andorians

>>94833202
Fair.

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>>94789083
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajsNJtnUb7c

>>94834387
Do you think Khan needed a change of underwear after that?

>>94834423
Those augments didn´t strike me as the underwear-using kind.
And by the time needed one, the toponymical change was on going.