>>96882430
troll slide thread

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>>96882395
WTF is this even?
retarded conversions for nitpick nofun autists

What's your preferred dungeon? I absolutely adore Borshak's Lair personally.

>>96882520
stonehell

>>96882520
uncle bad touch's basement bonanza

Fishfag's ban expired, huh.

>>96882395
>What's your favourite monster from the Fiend Folio? How did you use it?
I kinda want to meme that I like the Stair Stalker or something but the truth is I think the Fiend Folio is an extremely underwhelming monster book. I have a copy but I never use it.

>>96882494
Where is it from?

>>96882520
Stonehell, by far. Nothing comes close to it, in my book.

>>96882520
Borshak is only really notable for being thoroughly jaquayed IMO. Khosura is probably my favorite published dungeon, although I like the City of Vultures material as well.

>>96882395
>>96882596
>I think the Fiend Folio is an extremely underwhelming monster book
I think it's better thought of as a mixed bag. It has a few good monsters, like dark stalkers/creepers, bullywugs, death knights, hook horrors, meenlocks, poltergeists, sons of kyuss, variant trolls, and so on.

>>96882642
>Khosura is probably my favorite published dungeon
Is it really that good? I've only read the upper city part and I found it just okay. Didn't dive into the dungeon yet.

>>96882652
I don't really like any of those t bh. The undead in particular strike me as just "it's a zombie but with 4 HD", "it's a ghost but I don't like how the MM ghost has a fuckload of HD" and so on.

The only monsters with any real claim to fame are the gith races, but even there, I don't really care for that kind of planar-travel creatures which imply there's a whole extradimensional ecology, or how to put it. It's too much of an intrusion on the cosmology of a setting. It's a matter of taste, obviously, I can see them having their place in a very different style of game.

>>96882660
I mean, it's a matter of personal preference, right? Anon adores Borshak's Lair and I don't see that there's much worthy of adoration in that; I really like Khosura and you might not see the value in it and so on.

But yes, it's the dungeon that makes it good, of course. The city is only described fairly schematically; anyone expecting a CSIO type of thing is going to be disappointed. I do think the integration of the city and the underworld is top notch, though, with the various entrances to the dungeons scattered over it and various doings above reflecting the contents of the underworld.

>>96882652
Agreedo: it's much like MMII in that regard. Some iconic stuff, and a ton of chaff. But that's fine.

>>96882521
>>96882621
What makes Stonehell peak in your eyes? It looked pretty generic and bland to me, but I only read the first two levels. Does it get stronger later? The one thing I did like was the Tree of Life area, that was clever.

>>96882395
I like this thread/s OP better, what's the problem and why was there so much trolling last thread about it?

>>96882520
Really like Curse of Cragbridge and Tomb Robbers on the Crystal Frontier. Both have a great distinct tone and well thought out dungeon around the themes and enough meat to get a campaign going. Arty without getting to far away from core loops, neat monsters.

>>96883184
If you don't like the first two levels it's unlikely you'll be a fan of the deeper ones. I think its main qualities are its presentation, with the two-page spread and minimal keying augmented by a few special features per quadrant described in detail in a more traditional way, the way it's jelqed, and it just plays great at the table.

Can't say I agree it's generic, though, there's a ton of stuff like arcanitech, gamma world (mutant future) areas, and whole levels that are just very weird. The new monsters are good, the factions are interesting, and so on. I think a great dungeon does need a generic core to stay familiar and have the new and creative elements stand out as such.

If everything is weird just for the sake of weirdness, nothing is.

The GLOG, and in particular it's magic system, does it hold any value for 1974-1983 era D&D or is more Nusr appropriate?

>>96883543
We've had one guy who's been obsessed with trying to destroy or highjack /osrg/ for years. The other thread is just his latest attempt, for a period he tried to "steal" regulars from this general by creating a new general called /todd/. When that failed, he came back to /osrg/ trying to shit up the thread. Expect more of the same with their hijacking thread.

It's not like he wants anything positive either. He has a few obsessions that he always starts shouting against (/osrg/, the Night Lands, ACKS, anything he perceives to be chuddery), but he's never shown any positive interest in anything. He seems to be fuelled 100% by anger and resentment.

AD&D 2e and Hickman/Dragonlance are just an excuse, from many discussions in the past it's clear he's not very familiar with those and he doesn't actually play them.

He's just a little goblin, full of hate and nothingness. The kind of nihilist that might one day just shoot up a school because he hates people who have fun.

>>96883670
>The GLOG, and in particular it's magic system, does it hold any value for 1974-1983 era D&D
None whatsoever.

>or is more Nusr appropriate?
Yeah, you can definitely try there. Better fit. Have luck.

>>96883670
GLOG is essentially just a restatement of Basic, it deliberately doesn't go past level 4. So it's always going to be a low-level, low-power game. Now, again, that's intentional, but it does call into question why you'd want to play D&D at all if all you want is a low-powered, "realistic" game. There are tons of systems like that, that are designed for it from the ground up instead of awkwardly hacking away 80% of D&D.

The magic system in particular is memey. It's one of the big draws for content creators because it's so simple to create new spellcaster variants, but A, that's because it too is extremely limited, so you can make "a slime wizard" or "a shadow wizard" where in D&D proper those would just be a handful of spells, not ostensibly a whole class, and B, if there's anything we should have collectively learned from 3e it's that new-style saves are bad. But if there's another thing we should have learned it's that more spellcasting classes isn't actually better. Going Fighter, Thief, <endless liteany of douchebags with spells> both cheapens magic and further increases the sense that "martials" are a defective exception in a game all about magic.

TL;DR most of the "creativity" of GLOG is a sleight of hand through severe limitation of PCs.

>>96884054
Very detailed answer thank you.
Let me ask another then.

What are your thoughts on Target20?
Is it a great way to entice newbies with easy math?

>>96884226
>Target20
Is that the ACKS to-hit roll? Seems pointless to me, I doubt even most ACKS players use it. Just use ascending AC, IMO.

>>96884226
NTA. Target20 is just an alternative way to do arithmetic, not a different rule. If it works at your table, go for it. Be aware that it's not the only option: For example, OSE goes naturally with Target19 if you use its native attack bonus column with descending AC, not target 20.

>>96884233
>Is that the ACKS to-hit roll?
No. It's
> AB + (desc) AC + d20 >= 20 to hit
Where AB = Attack Bonus = (20-THAC0). See here:
https://www.oedgames.com/target20/

If you want, you can instead do Target19
> AB' + (desc) AC + d20 >= 19 to hit
Where AB' = Attack Bonus' = (19-THAC0).

or Target21
> AB'' + (desc) AC + d20 >= 21 to hit
Where AB'' = Attack Bonus'' = (21-THAC0).

There's (very minor) pros and cons to each of these.

>Just use ascending AC
Ascending AC may be functionally the same but aesthetically really rather disgusting.

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>>96884257
Oh no, 2etard is sad again!

>>96884267
>Boogeytroll tries to make his boogeyman
I don't get why you'd think your psychosis makes you look less crazy.

Do you even understand how lame you sound, boogeytroll?

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What's your favourite Jack Vance novel, novella, or short story? Dying Earth or Lyonesse?

>>96884308
>Dying Earth or Lyonesse?
Of course it HAS to be Dying Earth, given the deep influence it's had on Gygax and D&D.

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>>96884274
>muh boogeyman

>>96884337
>muh shitposting
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/image/P4T67jsh5ZuPFIgtxARukA/

>>96884308
Planet of Adventure for me.

>>96884331
>https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2022/10/blog-osr-module-o5-2e-is-still-not-old.html
Go ahead. Read it.

>N-no, you're the hateful one.
Meanwhile in reality;
>Retard, you're the faggot trying to say everyone who tells you that your shit book is shit is a single person, so quit it with the hypocritical accusation that I'm the one trying to play a numbers game when that's the only card you're able to play.
>I can admit to having said that Night Lands is shit in the past, however, this was alongside other people, and I actually find it pretty amusing that you've been run out of /lit/, a board I never visit, because even the people there immediately recognize the book is shit. And, I've seen from you the same defensive attempt all the worst posters on this board try to do; they leap to try and create a circus of inventing a boogeyman, because apparently you run on the logic that an opinion's validity is determined by the conventions of a popularity contest, and you're hoping to brute force your way to minimize the appearance of the other side as much as possible, likely under the hope that if you can accuse the opposing side of being a single person, outside observers will think "Well, even if it's not just one person, it must be a small number."
>This is abhorrent behavior, which is why you're the singular and only person to do it on this board. You are the boogeyman of /tg/, responsible for all the shittiest opinions, combined with the shittiest attempts to defend those positions: complete with hysterical theatrics, nothing even close to resembling a coherent argument, and copious (emphasis on the word "cope") amounts of same-fagging to try and pretend you are not a singular boogeyman.

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94619506/#94700272

Isn't it funny how everyone except you apparently is the worst person since HitLucifer.
Once? Sure, maybe it's us.
Twice? It's most certainly you.
And yet it's not even just twice, time and again you run into some small niche and they come out of it hating your fucking guts

You are the problem
No one else

>>96884342
>he doesn't realize that the extension downloads images with filenames intact

>>96884353
>read my bullshit blog
Why. Who made you an authority.

>>96884358
>first several posts are you raging about 2e

>>96884358
Given it was hypothesized last thread that he was falseflagging with other peoples images just so he could make deranged posts then point to them as proof he's totes right?
I wouldn't put it past him.

>>96884359
I only wish I had Melan's design chops. No, it's not my blog, it belongs to one of the founders (precursors, even) of the OSR, who came up with the "Melan diagrams" of dungeons, wrote a bunch of 3e-era Wilderlands content etc. That's what makes him an authority, that he as much as anybody created this thing you're trying to shit all over and he's so good at what he does that even people who hate him for being a Hungarian chud respect his skills. He's the Petrarch of the old school renaissance.

>>96884375
>He's the Petrarch of the old school renaissance.
hear! hear!

>>96884353
People are even disagreeing with that guy in the comments of his own blog.
And his argument is mostly incoherent rambling where he's trying to pretend his subjective emotions and bizarre interpretations (like trying to pretend that 2e isn't based on the same books 1e was) have some semblance of objective truth, when they're mostly just nonsense.
He wasn't even able to convince all the people who actually read his blog, why would you imagine it could persuade everyone else?

>>96884375
>That's what makes him an authority,
...so, absolutely nothing?

>>96884375
>it belongs to one of the founders (precursors, even) of the OSR,
You're just 100% bullshitting at this point, because that's not how the OSR formed or even how the OSR could form. It was never "founded", and anyone who would try to claim to be a founder or to have any special kind of authority would be laughed at because the very notion is ridiculous.

>>96884388
>>96884390
>>96884396
>local samefag blisteringly assmangled
Touched a nerve, eh?

>>96884353
Just finished reading it.
This is the dumbest thing ever written.

Every time he tries to make a point, he has to go and try to pre-empt any criticism by trying to dismiss all the evidence that contradicts him.

2e whitewashed the game! How? By removing half-orcs! Sure, they still added half-orcs in a different book, but that doesn't count!
2e is bad because it doesn't give advice in the DMG! Sure, it actually does, but it's not the same advice in 1e! And that advice is objectively better... because trust me!

The guy is just tossing out word salads without any dressing, and you're just hoping to do the same and pretend an argument was made.

>>96884408
You're just immediately going for Umadding when your Appeal to Authority failed spectacularly?

>>96884408
Calling out your personal hero blogger as a nobody is just spitting facts. No one's going to suck his dick just because you insist they should, especially when he's making such dumb posts.

>>96884428
I feel like he made that post to try and get some attention. Looking through his blog, it does not seem to be a particularly popular one, with less than a dozen commentors.

>>96884466
It's a blog in 2025.

>this dumb motherfucker trying to pretend Melan is a nobody
kek, stinks of his desperation

>this retard thinks a nobody is an authority

>>96884598
You didn't do a very good job with the whole "this blogger is super important because...." part of your Appeal to Authority. AtA is already a weak fallacy, but not even coming up with a reason to respect his opinions beyond he also wrote other stuff no one cares about is where I don't even know why you're bothering to try that approach.

>>96884408
>nono, its every 2 minutes, can't possibly be me.

>>96882395
I have actually never used a monster from the FF in any form of osr. I know, I'm fucking up.

>Create an alternative "osrg" thread under the pretence that they want to be able to discuss 2e. >>96881801
>Still come back to troll / spam / flood / brigade the real /osrg/.
In case anybody still believed that the trolls / spammers / flooders / brigaders actually ever cared about 2e.

They're only here to disrupt the real /osrg/.

And this is also why janitors should either
>(1) Delete these shitposts, ban the trolls / spammers / flooders / brigaders from here, and let them shitpost in their own separatist thread,
-or-
>(2) Delete their "alternative" thread, since it serves no REAL purpose.

>>96884802
>And this is also why janitors should either
>(1) Delete these shitposts, ban the trolls / spammers / flooders / brigaders from here, and let them shitpost in their own separatist thread,
-or-
>(2) Delete their "alternative" thread, since it serves no REAL purpose.
¿Porque no los dos?

>>96884807
>¿Porque no los dos?
If they do (1) we get (2) for free anyway, that thread is not going to last, just like /todd/ and /2eg/ before it.

>>96884802
This is not the "real" /osrg/.

This is the /BroSRg/.
https://www.enworld.org/threads/brosr.691184/

You have your own idea of what OSR is that's completely different from what most people think it is, and you keep trying to impose your ideas instead of accepting that people will not play the way you do. Your hangup is 2e, the hangup with you is you having your hangups.

>>96884817
>that thread is not going to last
It's going to be fun when that UNAVOIDABLY eventually happens, because it'll show without any shadow of a doubt that this is the consensus thread where the actual constructive discussion takes place, despite their "best" efforts to distract and hijack.

I say let the fake "osrg" stand, it'll only come back to bite them in the ass. In fact, I might even keep creating it for them if they don't.

The truth will set you free.

>>96884825
>This is the /BroSRg/.
Nice try, but there's no BrOSR bros here, as you already know. Now go back to your containment thread >>96881801 since you like it so much, and stop brigading this one.

>>96884825
>the BrOSR continues to live rent free in this anon's brain
Buddy it's been like two decades since Jeffro died of old age, give it a rest already.

>Anyone who disagrees with me is /BroSR/
Oh fuck off retard.

>>96884858
He uses it as an insult, and he's not even completely wrong, but I'd MUCH rather be a BrOSR fag than a 2etard or whatever the fuck it is that he actually plays spoiler: nothing.

>>96884825
no its not, retard. brosr only plays
"btb raw 1e".
Meanwhile, we play ODD, BX, AD&D1e, LotFP, ACKS, etc. The only grey-area games off topic is stuff like 2e and DCC, both of which belong in other threads.

>you arent conforming to the public's (my) perception of OSR, you gotta be 4chan.org/r/OSR!!!
"No!"

>>96884802
You are fundamentally wrong.
You've had this explained to you hundreds of times now. But you keep doing shit like lying about their being a consensus over the OP you made and trying your hardest to pretend there are not multiple people who disagree with you and challenge you, which is extremely concerning considering your own opinions only belong to a minority within the OSR.
You try to browbeat/bully/brigade/bullshit your way past a few simple facts, and all because you have severe autism regarding your personal opinions.
That's all you have. Opinions. Do you understand that? You may really, really believe in them, but they are subjective opinions and you need to learn how to tolerate people discussing something you may not like and may disagree with.
2e is an OSR game. The /osrg/ is for discussing OSR games. That is the fundamental truth.
You can believe it is not a good OSR game. You can hate people discussing it as much as you want if you do it privately. And, if you keep your autism in check, you will likely only see the occassional post specifically about 2e, just like we saw in the past. Instead, you keep throwing tantrums and trying to restructure the entire concept of OSR because of a mix of ego, sunk-cost fallacies, and what appears to be a genuine love for trolling.

>>96884881
>2e is an OSR game.
It really isn't. It's against the spirit of OSR.
And there's no amount of coping or seething you can do that'll change that.

>>96884858
>Buddy it's been like two decades since Jeffro died of old age, give it a rest already.
The spirit of being really dumb and trying to police the OSR lives on though. The basic idea of "I get to decide for everyone what OSR means" is the core of "BrOSR", and that's exactly what you're trying to do.
Instead of going "Okay, let's agree to disagree", as most OSR people do, the BrOSR are all about "Everything I like is OSR, everything I dislike is not" and then trying to gatekeep all the way up until they ended up finding themselves in a little BrOSR camp, with the OSR growing and expanding away from them.

>>96884892
It's "OSR" the way Shadowdark is (read: not at all).
But some people (read: secondary normies) come here with a distorted perception that this is the all-encompassing "OSR" thread, the way reddit allows basically *anything* that calls itself osr regardless of content or tone.

>>96884892
You're not the guy who defines what the "spirit of OSR" is.

Spoiler: there is no single guy who does.

There's not even a group of people who do, because the OSR is not some cult with a central authority of any kind.

>>96884881
>you're not the guy who defines what osr is
>you are fundamentally wrong
lmao try again
Actually don't, it sucks and you're fucking up the board, but get your head together. Its clearly non-functional.

>>96884892
It is. It's a pre-WotC D&D. And, it's also compatible with most OSR content.
Trying to say the changes made by 2e were so important that they launched the OSR would mean the OSR started in 1984.
It did not start in 1984. In fact, the majority of 1e players switched over to 2e, and there wasn't any revival or renaissance or resurrection movement for 1e.
The OSR started as a post-3e response. That's why it started not long after 3e's release.

>>96884912
right, which is why people make threads with specific scope, to keep the focus on particular games, and excluding others, per their prerogative.
Dont like it? Make your own thread, ezpz! :)

>>96884902
See, Shadowdark can at least follow OSR methodologies.
It wouldn't be a good OSR game, but an attempt could be made.
The problem with 2e is that no attempt was made at any point, it actively rejects the foundational concepts of OSR gameplay and was, in turn, rejected by later games that are OSR as a "This is what I don't like in a game".
5e is the heir to the 2e bloodline and no one would claim 5e is designed to be an OSR game, so why would anyone accept its grandfather is?

>>96884912
>You can't say what the spirit of OSR i-
Yeah but I can say what it isn't, unfortunately for you, no amount of smuckling about how a man is a two legged beast without feathers is going to stop me holding up the chicken.
The fact you're trying to define OSR out of existence as if that has ever worked in any situation ever tells me you're not a sincere actor.
You're a faggot trying to pull a fast one and the only thing you're upset about is being called out.

>>96884939
>make a thread that I'm going to harass and say is a troll thread and try to have deleted

>>96884942
You really suck at banter.

>>96884956
>Can't address the point, better turn to insults
Diogenes was your superior in every measurable way. Cope.

>>96884934
>The OSR started as a post-3e response
The OSR started as a response to WotC, not to 3e specifically.

The original discussion around the Old School Revival was over fear that WotC would not release pre-3e editions anymore since those might compete against 3e. It wasn't an anti-3e movement, it was a pro-pre-WotC-editions movement. Some of the first activities of the OSR was trying to set up petitions to get WotC to reprint older books.

It's not about hating editions or mechanics in those editions, it's about celebrating the good parts of older editions that might be forgotten if not preserved.

>>96884946
>im gonna quit before starting and then blame others!
Wow. So youd rather just stay here and complain that actually talk about games?

Now, someone please post their current 2e char sheet and Ill post my current acks sheet.

>>96884946
eternal victim-brain, sad.

>>96884934
>>96884975
Then what are you doing here? Why aren't you posting in the thread where 2e is on-topic, if you care so much about it? Post there >>96881801

>>96884994
He doesnt play, he doesnt even have a character sheet to pass off as his own. Hes a lonely nogames troll who gets his kicks from the attention his online tantrums get him.

>>96884975
It's a mixed bag.
You can't say that everyone who considers themselves a part of the OSR doesn't hate 3e, because there's definitely people who do have that sentiment, and it likely motivated some away from 3e and towards older editions.
That's kind of the problem in the OSR, because there's kernals of truth that can be used to distort the bigger picture, and without much effort I could lay down a lot of forum/blog posts that say the OSR is about rejecting post-3e D&D.

>>96884994
Why can't you explain why the OSR started shortly after 3e's release, and not after 2e's release?

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>>96884975
I'd argue that OSR is a direct reaction to the direction that 2e took.
All the parts that people remember fondly about 2e, and there are parts that people remember fondly, tend to be the initial writing, because there are some really fucking cool ideas in there that people are keen on.
Who doesn't love the elevator pitch for Dark Sun? Whores, that's who.

But then you get further in and hear about shit like the Prism Pentad and realize that the setting is basically ruined, in canon, by extra bullshit that was added on afterwards, the cancerous tumour of a Metaplot that reeks of tabletop Sequelitis.

People who enjoy OSR enjoy taking settings and making them their own, seeing the effect that your choices have on the world and following through on the consequences of your decisions.
People who don't enjoy OSR and do enjoy 2e-5e enjoy more of a guided tour of the setting through things like adventure paths, where your character could easily be swapped out with another character and the plot is going to go the same.
Or rather, they're happy to live with this state of affairs so long as they get the spectacle that comes with premium, designed-to-market adventures.

If you want to define the difference; in Dark Sun there's a thing called a Avangion. If such a creature were to come into existence then it would unfuck quite a lot of the setting just through its presence.
An OSR game would have such a thing be part of the setting meat, a distant, potential concept, maybe it'd include details on how they might come about or theorycraft how to include them at your table.
Later games would have stringent details on how they come to be and probably an adventure path where your players serve one (Not be one, oh no, that's far too important for a PC, thus why the how-to of becoming one is bullshit complicated, it's for NPCs only unless the DM lets you)

>>96885079
> the cancerous tumour of a Metaplot
Something that originated in OD&D, and carried through AD&D 1e.

The whole "2e was such a huge departure from 1e" narrative is not really seen by most people, especially the majority of players. It's only when you try to make a mountain out of every molehill that differences can even emerge, and it's only with a pretty psychotic-level of spindoctoring that 2e becomes a "narrative" game anywhere near the lanes of systems like Amber Diceless or FUDGE. It takes an incredibly narrow view of RPGs where the only games that exist are 1e and 2e that your narrative can even form, and even then it doesn't really hold much water because it relies heavily on your personal opinions that ignore a lot of evidence that contradicts you.

>People who don't enjoy OSR and do enjoy 2e-5e enjoy more of a guided tour of the setting through things like adventure paths, where your character could easily be swapped out with another character and the plot is going to go the same.

This is complete bullshit though. You're trying to invent stereotypes and trying to apply them to diverse groups with diverse playstyles, and then trying to pretend. People who enjoy 2e-5e do not necessarily enjoy "guided tours of settings", and there's countless examples of sand-box style play in settings no more defined than the original Greyhawk, or even in Greyhawk itself.

Even your whole business about the Avangion's is basically nonsense. 1e had the Queen of the Spiders "SuperModule" where the heroes have to kill the Goddess in order to save the world/avoid eternal torment in the Demonweb pits.

>>96884994
>Why aren't you posting in the thread where 2e is on-topic, if you care so much about it?
Because he knows better than anyone that he's the only one posting in that thread and isn't getting any engagement. Why do you think he moved over to this thread to spam it with his bullshit instead? He always does this, tries to spin off the /osrg/ and leaves us alone until he realizes it isn't working, then comes back to throw his spergrage tantrums here.

>>96885079
I've played every edition of D&D. I still play quite a few.
And you're rather mistaken about where the line is or even what it is.
5e has so much OSR-style content that it's arguably the most popular system for the style, at least in regards to player counts/adventure sales. People are pumping out OSR adventures that are AD&D+5e compatible (as insane as that sounds), because 5e has something like a fifty times the amount of people playing it and an even higher ratio of idiots willing to throw away money. 5e is a big reason people are even fighting over the OSR name, because 5e helped make it a marketing term and an incredibly lucrative one at that.
2e didn't even really change style of play so much as just offered up many of the options people were already exploring as far back as 0e so DMs could better decide for themselves how they wanted to play, while still preserving most of the old options as variants. People were able to use the one system to shift between styles according to their moods, because, amazingly, people can enjoy more than a single way to play. It's almost like your "everyone only likes one kind of game and is a 'type'" hypothesis is just you being silly.
Even people who play 5e can understand making settings your own and bla bla bla, because they do that and enjoy it. One of the major reasons for 5e's dominating popularity is that people use it to run so many different styles of games, even if they need to dive into its guts, just like people did way back as far as 0e.
Even the genesis of Basic is about how 0e was getting too big and wild with all sorts of options and extras. 1e even experimented with a 7th ability score.
Trying to say "style I like is pre-2e, style I don't like is post-2e" doesn't really reflect the reality of games, which is "some people have had 'metaplots' since the game began, and people even use the most recent edition to do sandbox dungeon crawls."

>>96885079
>But then you get further in and hear about shit like the Prism Pentad and realize that the setting is basically ruined, in canon, by extra bullshit that was added on afterwards, the cancerous tumour of a Metaplot that reeks of tabletop Sequelitis.
>extra bullshit that was added on aftwerwards
I hate to break this to you, Anon, but the Prism Pentad was planned before the release of the original box set. The metaplot was preplanned the whole time, the garbage that ruined the setting was an integral element of the sales plan.

And, in fact, this neatly illustrates the cancer of the 2e non-old-school "trad" style: even the good ideas come pre-ruined by the creators' bad ethos and notions of desirable play.

>>96885183
>metaplot originated in OD&D
KEK, he's getting ever more desperate, just belting out the most ridiculous lies at this point hoping someone will catch a stray tardbullet

>>96885183
>Something that originated in OD&D, and carried through AD&D 1e.
I'm sure you have something more than just "No, because I say you're wrong" on that one, don't you Buddy?

>This is complete bullshit though. You're trying to invent stereotypes and trying to apply them to diverse groups with diverse playstyles, and then trying to pretend. People who enjoy 2e-5e do not necessarily enjoy "guided tours of settings", and there's countless examples of sand-box style play in settings no more defined than the original Greyhawk, or even in Greyhawk itself.
1: Oh, fuck off with your "every group is a unique snowflake who can't be categorized" lackwittery. I've played 5e, I've played Pathfinder and 3.5. I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me that Chilli is really just a kind of chunky soup because some Chillis are loose and ect, ect, so on, so forth.
There is a difference in design at the core of later games and you faggoting about definitions isn't going to make black into white or up into down.
2: Notice how you have to be a coward and ignore the "Or rather, they're happy to live with this state of affairs", I imagine more players than we think would gag for what OSR offers if they understood the difference. No one likes the railroad, not really, they just tolerate it.
3: Queen of the Spiders starts at level 8. Diddle me this; what were players doing up until that point? You will also notice this little quirk:
>Queen of the Demonweb Pits is an open-ended adventure; each portal can lead to a large area, from which the dungeon master can launch a new campaign.
Open ended + leads to entirely new campaigns.
Look, you've made it perfectly clear you're not interested in actually acknowledging that you're dealing with two entirely separate games with different design overton windows, but can you at least leave us alone to our own thread?

>>96882616
castle zagyg

>>96885402
>I'm sure you have something more than just "No, because I say you're wrong" on that one, don't you Buddy?
I'm pretty sure he's just losing it at this point but it might be that he's as confused about what "metaplot" means as he is about what "OSR" means. I've seen other people who aren't Fishfag confused about this elsewhere, who think it just means "plot" or some shit.

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>>96885401
>I hate to break this to you, Anon, but the Prism Pentad was planned before the release of the original box set. The metaplot was preplanned the whole time, the garbage that ruined the setting was an integral element of the sales plan.
That's pretty much my point. 2e has some great ideas and some great production values and some great concepts.
It also, however, had a bunch of frustrated novelists casually ladling raw sewage into the barrel and since the concentration only went up over time, it became more noticeable.
So, we're agreeing basically, the creators of 2e had some great ideas for unique, interesting settings, but they can't even conceive of a setting without a metaplot going on in it.
Apart from Jakandor weirdly enough actually now I think about it, which is a remarkably solid OSR sandbox setting and a spiritual precursor to Red Tide. Go figure.

>>96885399
>Even people who play 5e can understand making settings your own and bla bla bla, because they do that and enjoy it. One of the major reasons for 5e's dominating popularity is that people use it to run so many different styles of games, even if they need to dive into its guts, just like people did way back as far as 0e.
That's pure "Oh, anything can be ran in it"-ism and you know it. People stick to the things they know even if they're ill suited. There's a reason Starfinder and D20 modern exist and it's not because they're good at running the genres they're trying to emulate, is it?

>>96885402
>I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me that Chilli is really just a kind of chunky soup

...It's literally a stew.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chili_con_carne

>>96885402
>not going to sit here and let you tell me that Chilli is really just a kind of chunky soup
it absolutely fucking is though, retard

>>96885438
>2e has some great ideas and some great production values and some great concepts.
Some of the settings, maybe. There's nothing worth salvaging in the core books, which are just a horrible bowdlerization and traddifying of real AD&D to placate the Satanic Panic parents that thought it was made by the Devil.

Agreed on the rest, for sure. Didn't really read Jakandor though for presumably obvious reasons.

Love me some pleistocene megafauna incidentally, dat megaloceros

>>96885440
Is a stew a soup?
Define the difference, I need an exact delineation between the two otherwise I'm going to start claiming that I can enter a can of Cream of Tomato into a chilli cook off because hurr durr words have no meaning unless it's to my benefit.
This is the problem we're facing.
You know what we're talking about.
I know what we're talking about.
Yet you pretend not to know what we're talking about so you can argue about the definition of words rather than the actual discussion at hand on the presumption that you can score some cheap points by playing retarded and waiting for me to slip up.
Have some self-respect for once and actually engage with what the other person is saying, this isn't a debate club, you're not winning points, you're just pissing people off and making them not want to talk to you because of how clearly insufferable you are.

>>96885462
>you're just pissing people off and making them not want to talk to you because of how clearly insufferable you are.
To be fair, he's not even accomplishing this. Everybody here already knows what a fag he is, nobody's opinion is being changed.

>>96885462
all stews are categorically chunky thickened soups

>>96885457
>Didn't really read Jakandor though for presumably obvious reasons.
I've got a soft spot for Jakandor despite it being absolutely barebones because it's got non-evil Necromancers as one of the two protagonist groups.
Red Tide did it better though.

>>96885402
>There is a difference in design at the core of later games
That difference is "allow more styles". It did not eliminate any pre-existing ones.

That's really it. You're making the mistake of seeing things from such a narrow perspective, that you see the introduction of new elements as a radical departure, rather than just new options that expanded how people could play if they desired. And, weirdly enough, most people enjoyed playing in more than just one style. Hell, groups could consist of players who all enjoyed different styles, at different times.

>No one likes the railroad
Which is why it's insane that you insist that post-2e is all about railroading and pre-2e is all about freedom-truth-and-love. You keep trying to create some kind of... sales pitch, where people should play 1e because that's the only way to have real freedom with real stakes and real consequences, when the reality is that what's "real" to a group is up to them and always has been.

>3: Queen of the Spiders starts at level 8. Diddle me this; what were players doing up until that point?
Does it matter? We're still talking about a chain of adventures with a metaplot, one that's basically slapped over originally disconnected adventures just to try and get people to buy and play them in sequence, requiring a certain amount of railroading to get them on through one to the next. It's a bad way to implement metaplot, but that's still what it is.

>>96885536
2e is not OSR and is off-topic for this thread, however.

>>96885462
>Is a stew a soup?
It's chunky soup.

>>96885438
>That's pure "Oh, anything can be ran in it"-ism and you know it
That's what the system was built to enable and encourages.
Hell, it's what the original D&D was built around, with Gygax waxing poetically quite frequently about how the game can be used for everything.

>>96885536
>We're still talking about a chain of adventures with a metaplot
Kek, he really doesn't know what metaplot means

>>96885045
Why was this post dodged?

>>96885045
>>96885592
Because the OSR was originally an OGL phenomenon. 1e enthusiasts realized that the Open Game License enabled the release of a clone game which in turn would function as a fig leaf for the publication of new AD&D 1e-compatible modules. During the incomparably destructive 2e era this had not been possible as TSR was famously litigious and would sue third-party creators for SLAPP purposes, even though the right of third parties to produce compatible products had already been established many decades previously (the litigation in question was in reference to the automotive industry and the production and sale of third-party spare parts, marked with what car models they were for). Since there is no money in RPGs, nobody could afford to take TSR to court over this despite the fact that they were guaranteed to win *after* the outlay of millions of dollars in legal fees, and as a result, third-party modules were suppressed. 3E and its release of the OGL put an end to fears of litigation and opened the old-school floodgates, although early products were designed with marked trepidation about what could and could not be copied, which is why e.g. Labyrinth Lord has a bunch of pointless deviations from B/X and the Fight On! statblocks posted in the last thread look weird. As the legal situation became clearer fears diminished and products like OSE became the norm.

>>96885079
>I'd argue that OSR is a direct reaction to the direction that 2e took.
You'd argue that, but only by ignoring that the OSR did not start in 1984 or anywhere near that time. It's hard for something to be treated as a "direct reaction" when that reaction happens two decades later.

>>96885001
>voices in my head tell me that everyone who disagrees with me is the same person

>>96885079
tl;dr derp and durr
Also if OSR is a direct reaction to 2e then why did become a thing after 3e came out? The time when D&D changed tons of stuff unlike 2e which for the most part works with 1e.

>>96885548
You keep saying that and every time it is retarded.

>>96885776
>tfw you're so fishtarded that you don't even notice that the answer was written out directly above your post 15 minutes ago

>>96885668
People were making 1e and 2e 3rd-party material before the OGL, which is largely an empty and symbolic document that offered no rights that publishers didn't already have beyond the ability to use the newly created d20 System logo (which was made because WotC wanted to protect the valuable D&D logo). If people wanted 1e material during 2e's era, they could make it (using the same legal-dodging techniques publishers used since the 70s) But, the overwhelming majority of 1e players simply transitioned to 2e, so no one really wanted 1e-specific material, especially because material for the editions was largely compatible.

>3E and its release of the OGL put an end to fears of litigation and opened the old-school floodgates
That it did not. No one except publishers already friendly with WotC tried publishing under the OGL for more than three years, with publishers after that slowly testing the waters to see how far they could go without WotC coming after them.
It really need a strong impetus to build up for the OSR to form and to risk using the OGL and seeing if it would hold as a promise against lawsuits for 3rd party publishers, something it ultimately would not when WotC decided to take the BoEF to court.

That impetus was WotC signaling no future pre-3e releases. Even the last big 2e adventure, Die Vecna Die, was used to hard transition the Greyhawk (and Ravenloft/Planescape) world into its 3e shape. In the early 2000s, the discussion was not "Grr, I'm mad at 2e!" but "I think WotC is trying to bury the past, what can we do?" So, they tried petitions for re-releases, some tried using Hackmaster (which combined 1e, 2e, and parody elements) as a rallying point, and ultimately we saw new games like C&C appear.

The OSR was not a reaction to 2e that slumbered for two decades before the OGL allowed it to materialize. There was no anti-2e impetus to capitalize on during that time, with even Gygax's competing system DJ not gathering any large following.

>>96885904
So you don't have an answer so you show everyone that you got a fish stick for a brain.

>>96885399
>5e has so much OSR-style content that it's arguably the most popular system for the style, at least in regards to player counts/adventure sales.
If your main measurement metric is
>its called this on dtrpg and people buy it
then its useless. There are many many other places to discuss 'osr' in that mode, go there to do that.

>>96885478
>>96885557
Once its shifted from being
>primarily liquid
to
>not primarily liquid
its not a soup anymore.
This carries on to how much you can change or alter anything, much like this anon is discussing. You can try coming up with edge cases or interesting notes about how to convoluted the basic concept if you are so inclined but no one is obligated to accept the contortions you're going through to pretend to care about the subject.

>>96885569
>the salesman wanted everyone to use his product for everything
weird

>>96885979
You're 100% correct that people really shouldn't use those sort of metrics, hence the use of the word "arguably". But, the fact is that the numbers show how incredibly popular 5e is as an "OSR system" is something to take notice of, even if we have to rationally look at those numbers and add enough caveats and conditions to not have it actually be the most popular OSR system, just a market-dominating system that people happen to also be using for OSR-inspired games.

>>96885951
>t. Was not around at the time; confabulating wildly
You dumb nigger, the explanations of the OSRIC crew are readily available. Nobdy is going to buy this.
You can start here:
>https://osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com/2021/03/a-historical-look-at-osr-part-iv.html
You should read the whole series however, as it puts paid to all of your nonsensical sperging.

>>96886029
No idea what you're trying to say here other than
>idiots are wrong a lot and we have to pay attention to that
when they have all the other places to go be wrong and happy together.

>>96886017
A stew will settle to fit the container it is put in.

>>96886048
So will rice

>>96886048
>an omelet is a type of soup

>>96884946
How about "don't make it a troll thread in the first place?" Every time you make a separate thread it's not made honestly, to stand on its own, it's always written as a thinly veiled attack on this thread. Or a blatant one, as in literally making an alternate /osrg/ to split this one in two.
Which is why people call it a troll thread: because it's merely another tool for you to attack people you disagree with.

Do you not have any real, genuine interest in anything? Is all your focus and mental energy devoted to just raging against people who like things that you don't like, or who refuse to tell you that all your opinions about things are correct? Stop being childish already

>>96886050
>>96886086
Rice/Omelettes will form a pile like sand. Stew will flow to fit the container.

>>96886032
OSRIC came after Castles and Crusade.
It came out in 2006, so it's actually kind of late to the "early OSR" party.

>>96886189
If you're gonna do that, then D&D heartbreakers began being published in the 80s, so the OSR is way older than that. But the movement got its name because of OSRIC.

>>96886032
>a self-serving bit of bullshit propaganda that puts themselves as the originators of the OSR, contradicting all the actual evidence and trying to diminish what was done by earlier publishers, despite their OSRIC being never all that popular and rarely discussed outside of the incredibly small K&KA forums that never even reached 1000 members before dying

lol

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>>96886189
>he's trying to push his C&C-based alternative timeline again

>>96886189
>>96886210
>two replies to the same post three minutes apart
It's hilarious how predictable he is.

>>96886205
The OSR got it's name from DF forum posts talking about an old school "revival". Earliest post regarding that were 2003, but may have occurred before (since the DF forums lost the 2002 and earlier posts)
OSRIC stands for "old school reference [and index compilation]" and uses "renaissance", and the earliest example of "renaissance" was in 2004.

>>96886213
Even Gygax endorsed C&C as a return to the "old school".

>>96886250
It's called marketing, he said similar shit about Lejendary Adventures. Gygax post-84 is not that important

>>96886250
>Even Gygax

>there were rumblings (I think the Pied Piper Publishing forums were where this mostly happened) about the feasibility of using the OGL to release modules with "wrong" (i.e. 1st edition) stats as far back as 2002 because folks weren't satisfied with the Necromancer Games approach or the Hackmaster "mandatory comedy" shtick. When Troll Lord Games announced C&C (with Gygax on board) in 2003 that talk died out and the old-edition fans invested their enthusiasm in that effort, but it picked back up again once C&C was actually released and turned out to be more d20-like than we had hoped for.

C&C was never more than a dud, an inflamed appendix. The Simulacrum posts are thorough and contain copious sources. Until you compile a full refutation in detail of that set of posts, don't bring this up here again.

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>>96886181
>like sand
>like rice
Still flows to fit in its container. You're at the point of needing to lie about physical properties of matter. Reduction to how absurd you are being won't work on you because you're already committed to the buffoon bit but damn son.

>>96886272
So, we've got most of the OSR community and even your patron saint Gygax agreeing that C&C was an important OSR work, and then we have the OSRIC group that basically just copied C&C's strategy of using the OGL but pushed it further towards being a 1e clone trying to claim they were the start of a movement that began a minimum of three years before their game launched.

Huh. I wonder if that latter group might be full of shit.

>He's still desperately clawing at any chance to deconstruct or post-modernize the topic of the thread
Your shit isn't thread relevant.
End of.
Make your own thread if you disagree and watch it fail. Again. For a third time.

>>96886299
You're just trolling here. You already have all the other places to talk about whatever the fuck you think osr is. Go do that there. Here doesn't matter to you at all.

>>96886307
Yeah, I've been replying to him but it's high time to just ignore him and let him squawk. Any newfriend engaging in good faith can be directed to the Simulacrum series and Melan post and will grasp the real situation from there, no need to indulge this guy's vehement shitting.

>>96886276
That's literally just the OSRIC group perspective, a group that does not come close to being the entirety or even a majority or even being a large faction of the OSR community.

They're obnoxious and have a strong sense of entitlement, but their OSRIC game never sold well and became completely obsolete in no time at all, thanks in no small part to actual 1e re-releases.

It was a late arrival that missed its window, and the group that made it seems to be bitter they never had their pappy Gygax making new stuff for them but instead for the game they hate because it hit the market first while not being "pure" enough.

>>96886283
They form a pile. Do you understand what that means?

>>96886329
The solids you are describing will form to fill the container they are in. This is a known fact.

>>96886339
If you drop them into a container, they will form a pile.

>>96886370
They will settle to the bottom to confirm to the shape over time. That's what it does.

>>96886181
>>96886329
>>96886370
>an omelet will form a pile
Nigga you've been making scrambled eggs this whole time.

>>96886317
Frankly? At least he's shitting politely for once. As oppose to last thread where he was reposting his own posts and screaming about how he totes owned everyone in the past.
Presumably with tears running down his wee piggy face in the process.

>>96886375
Sand/rice/omelettes are able to support themselves in a pile.
If dropped in a container and left undisturbed, they will remain in a pile.

Where to get miniatures for dnd?

>>96886408
Until recently I would've said Otherworld Miniatures without hesitating, but he closed shop. Now I'd say whoever got his adventurer molds. Or Ral Partha.

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>>96886038
The point is that you're trying to split hairs over whether 2e is OSR or not, when 5e is a commonly accepted system for running OSR games.

In the grand spectrum of OSR, there's
>there is only a single way to play, using only a single system, and the only people allowed to play it must present a photo of their lips firmly wrapped around Gygax's penis

Let's go ahead and put that at 0.0

all the way to

>all games are OSR, the only thing that makes a game OSR is putting those letters on it and anyone can do so for any reason

And let's put that at 1.0.

Very few people actually exist at either end of that spectrum. Most people recognize common OSR elements (dungeon crawling, higher mortality, etc.) but what those elements are and how important they are remain quite subjective.

Where people sit on the spectrum varies, and where the cutoff should be for "You're just being ridiculous" also varies. You seem to be at roughly 0.2, and accepting only 0.0 up to 0.2 as the realm of what can be called "OSR".

I'm more open-minded, and sit somewhere around 0.4, but will tolerate 0.1 up to 0.7, because I understand some people are approaching the OSR from a very different perspective than my own.

>>96886428
>when 5e is a commonly accepted system for running OSR games
You missed part of your sentence there, let me help;
>when 5e is a commonly accepted system for running OSR games by absolute dribblers who don't know what OSR is and think it means "It am 'ardcore and real gritty loike"
There, does that help in understanding why people don't take you seriously?

>>96886384
That's no reason not to ignore and report trolling. We are not a meme about a shooped cat, the polite ones are not allowed to stay.

>>96886440
You realize I'm agreeing with you about the 5e being OSR, right? I'm going to put that at a 0.8, which is outside of my personal "this guy is sane" range.

I'm just trying to get you to understand things like "opinions" and that other people might have some that don't match your own, and that you're going to learn how to not act like a complete fuckwad whenever you discover people disagree with you, especially over relatively minor things. You're basically shitting yourself over an incredibly minor issue, and that's really a symptom of what happens when someone really lacks a larger perspective and understanding of a community far larger than himself.

>>96886480
I think he understands perfectly well that you're using your babble about 5e to try to slide the thread toward including 2e, which is not an OSR game, and is thus off-topic for this general.

>>96886480
See this >>96886483 ?
This guy gets it.

>>96886483
2e is an OSR game. In the grand spectrum, that opinion is probably around a 0.3 at most, considering that most of the OSR community accepts it as such (but there is some controversy). It hits most people's definitions of an old school style game, is compatible with most OSR products, and really the only way people can exclude it from the OSR is if they try to change the definition of OSR solely to try and exclude it.
Even if someone were to try and establish popularity metrics, it's roughly about as popular as OD&D is in the OSR community. And, once they try to use purity standards, unless they're specifically trying to exclude 2e they're going to end up rejecting many commonly considered OSR games long before they even start to hit 2e.

Add in the basic idea of OSR being "pre-WotC D&D and related systems", and it's pretty clear that it's OSR. It's only when you try to pull a "Yeah, no, the OSR ACKCHTUALLY started in 1984 but in secret and silence for 2 decades" that people like you start to emerge.

>>96886528
>2e is an OSR game. In the grand spectrum
There certainly is a spectrum involved in your arguments.
But it's not a particularly grand one.

>>96886535
Bad banter penalty. You really shouldn't try to make jokes if you're not cut out for them.

Also, wimpy dodge penalty. Want to try reading the post again, or should I just copy-paste it for you?

>>96886535
kekkk

>>96882395
Someone here please enlighten me on this thing called Rappa Athuk

>>96886528
doesnt matter if its "OSR" or not, one bit. What matters is its off-topic for *this* specific thread you absolute fucking retard.
Now post a current 2e char sheet

>>96886603
Are you admitting it's an OSR game?

>>96886580
It's a hot mess. Lots of internal cross-references broken making understanding what is where very unclear, or how distant one dungeon level is from one another completely obscure, and that's stuff you need as a DM: Does the party take one turn or three hours to go down the passage that leads from 12-C to 7-A?

Also full of 3eisms like extremely verbose room descriptions with very little signal-to-noise ratio. Levels that are individually too small. Room walls and passages that do not "snap" to the grid, making it extremely annoying for the DM to describe room, meaning it's incompatible with old school mapping, despite claims that it was originally an old school campaign.

It has a few good ideas, but I'd just say it's very outdated from too many points of view and likely not very much worth your time. Stonehell, Arden Vul, Barrowmaze, Khosura, Castle Xyntillan, and Caverns of Thracia are all much better options.

>>96886580
Rappan Athuk is a megadungeon written and run by a 1E oldhead back in the day, which was then published for 3e and subsequently for a clone, Swords & Wizardry IIRC. It's canonically located in Judges Guild's Wilderlands of High Fantasy, but in fact not in the village of Ruppin Athuk on Map #6 as one might think. Rather, it was in the Elphand Lands (Map #9), I forget exactly which hex, but somewhere in the southwestern corner.

Anyway, it's notable for being an early example of a published megadungeon, but I'm not sure it's played much anymore; it doesn't have much of a unique hook AFAIK.

>>96886607
NTA. Once again, you prove that the only thing you actually care about is trying to manipulate strangers into telling you that your opinions are right. Grow up.

>>96886639
No, the question is pretty important.
If it is OSR, than you are deliberately trying to exclude a game you don't like from the general it's supposed to be discussed in.
It if isn't OSR, than the OSR was actually started 20 years before any records of OSR and that means there's a secret history and we should probably be investigating that.

>>96886639
Again, stop engaging with him. Report and ignore.
>muh polite troll
Yeah, you see how far that shit gets you?

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>>96886628
Ah, here we go:
>According to Bill Webb, the Rappan Athuk dungeons are located in hex 4526 of the Elphand Lands, near the edge of the lake.
Relevant hex highlighted on map related; the numbering on this scan was already shit before I shrank it to half size and now it's totally fucked, but compare to an original print map and you'll see this is the right location.

>>96886669
>he doesn't know about the secret history
Yeah you should definitely go investigate that. Come back when you have found a lot of evidence and documents.

>>96886792
Just finished investigating.
There is no secret history. Huh, funny.

>>96886802
You're not looking hard enough. :)

>>96886802
Seems you need to look harder, it's really hidden deep.
Go away and don't come back until you've found the secret truth that "They" hid from us.

>>96886805
>>96886818
Sorry, but I did just check, and there's absolutely no secret history or even any reason to believe in there ever being a secret history.
Seems like 2e is OSR after all, and there's no way for the trolls to explain that 20 year gap.

>>96886826
It'll take way longer than that. Keep looking for a few weeks at least. Anything less is purposeful ignorance.

>>96886765
>hex highlighted
I don't see it.

>>96886836
Bottom right about 1/3rd of the way up.
I love seeing shit like this personally. A vast map full of potential adventures, then a little zoom in and knowing there's a massive dungeon in even a single one of those hexes.
It's good stuff.

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>>96886847
Ah!

>>96886834
Sounds like you should take your own advice and search for that secret history you're so sure exists. Like you said, anything less is purposeful ignorance, and you don't want to be a hypocrite.

>>96886856
>nou

>>96886607
>uhm did I just GOTCHA you?
its as much osr as shadowdark is, why arent they both on-topic?

>>96886861
All evidence and logic point to it not existing. If you believe otherwise, you should search for it.

>>96886869
You're clearly just bad at looking.

>>96886878
Since you believe you'd do better, off you go.

>>96886883
>nou again
lol i accept your concession

>>96886891
You don't seem to understand we're not on equal footing. The burden of proof is on you, so I don't need to try and prove a secret history that there's no evidence of and no logic to indicate it would even exist.
It's not a nou, it's proper reversal where I exploit your chosen position.

>>96886669
Alright, you want an answer. It's not OSR because it doesn't align with the spirit of the OSR.
It's not even in the same Overton window, it's an open attempt to take things in a different direction.

Calling it OSR is like calling Unforgiven a classic Western.
No, it's a Revisionist Western, which everyone acknowledges to be a different subgenre, one that's focused on undermining the traditional concepts of the Western.
Why can't you do the same and just say "Yeah, it's not the same thing" and move on exactly?

>>96886944
>Alright, you want an answer. It's not OSR because it doesn't align with the spirit of the OSR.
I know you understand how stupid that sounds, and how much of that is your personal and subjective opinion that you shouldn't be attempting to try and impose on other people.

>Calling it OSR is like calling Unforgiven a classic Western.
No, calling it OSR is like calling Unforgiven a Western. It dismantles some of the "classic" western tropes, while still following most of more modern established ones, and the one's it chose to dismantle are done in such a brazen and direct manner that even idiots who've never actually seen a classic Westerns could go "OH WOW, MY EXPECTATIONS ARE SUBVERTED."

And then you realize that the concept of the "classic" western was already torn apart all the way back when Clint was a young man, with the Spaghetti Westerns challenging the conventions of the golden age, which in turn had already subverted and re-arranged whatever was left from the pennydreadfuls that actually made it to screen.

OSR is a broad category. It's not akin to "classic" Western, it's just Western. The Searchers, A Fistful of Dollars, and Unforgiven are all Westerns, and we can draw the line by saying A Bug's Life is not a Western.

B/X class builder by welsh piper, is it good?

>>96887203
>B/X class builder by welsh piper
very basic, very meh. worth a pirate, but if youre doing that, you might as well just use the acks dmg class builder (its BX framework and much more in depth -- beware: severe autism)

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>>96886908
>this much cope to take an L
Keep going.

>>96887208
Guess I'll give it a go.

Follow up, since you're responding and are open about your autism.

I want to make a game where players start of with one of the base classes but can eventually switch class if they find themselves with an in-character reason.

But I can't decide if they should start over at level 1 when they change. Say a fighter be comes a paladin. Or if they should keep their XP and become whatever level of the new class that XP amass too.

>>96887288
>if they should keep their XP and become whatever level of the new class that XP amass too.
That's what I would do, anon

>>96884254
why the fuck is ascending ac disgusting aesthetically ? Arent you just poisonpilled on modern dnd design?
it is the one good thing 3e introduced. It doesnt change the math and it is much more intuitive than any other system

>>96887426
>It doesnt change the math
strictly untrue
>and it is much more intuitive than any other system
it is much worse for the sort of larger scale combats that are meant to take place, due to the AC matching up to the hits in 20 for a base attack

I first played D&D in 1977. Fuck you and get off my lawn.

>>96887426
>Arent you just poisonpilled on modern dnd design?
I'm too old to know what "poisonpilled" means, but I can tell you I've never played an edition with ascending AC. Does that answer your question?

>>96887288
use the AD&D dual class (aka step class) rules. the other replier is not me.

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>>96887514
>>96887451
pls unironically explain to me how this simple conversion changes the math and when i say math i mean the chances to hit/not get hit

>>96887575
I would tell you, but you've included "AD&D" 2e in the image, so I won't. Go ask in the 2e thread >>96881801

>>96887600
2e is OSR. Unless you've found that secret OSR data from those missing 2 decades?

>>96887612
the 2e chart is different from the 1e chart, so you are basically acting in bad faith

>>96887600
Are you a tourist? I saved this pic on osrg 7-8 years ago. Some anon from the threads was the one who made it. It deserves to be on osrg more than you for sure

>>96887621
Bitching about 2e is bad faith.

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Maybe I am in the wrong place, but is there a video game where I design the dungeon and then the computer runs a party through it? I want the rules to be as close to old school D&D as practical.

>>96887637
Still not getting an answer from me, 2etard. Ask your friends who TOTALLY play.

>>96887724
So you are too retarded to give a useful answer about anything.

>>96887760
Luckily, your 2etard friends will be able to answer.

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>>96884902
I think shadowdark might actually be pretty OSR? Picrel is from a couple threads ago.

>>96887809
So yes you are too retarded to be useful.

>>96887891
You don't play games and you are a miserable ESL failure

>>96887987
That just you, tardfag.

>>96888000
No, you are literally and factually an ESL
>that just you
Kek

>>96888112
You only think that because you are retarded.

>>96888131
No it's because you repeat the same shit over and over, and when you try to go off script, your broken ESL typing gives you a way

>>96888189
Or maybe people just find your posts retarded,

>>96888200
Oh yeah, what people specifically?
Are they also ESL nogames like yourself?
Just post literally any character sheet

>>96887659
It's extremely non-OSR-like, but that's basically the concept of the old PC game Dungeon Keeper.

>>96888379
Everyone who is not the boogeyman who lives in the void inside your head.

>>96888596
I think he might actually be psychotic. He's having one hell of a meltdown in the real /osrg/.

>>96888617
I saw that. Well, at least fishfag has admitted that he exists now. We can point to that thread as proof.

>>96888651
He has??

>>96888672
He apparently is a schizophrenic personality of the guy who's been trolling this board with his ACKS shilling. His boogeyman was genuinely living inside his own head.

>>96888672
You'll have to see for yourself, words can't describe it. But he seems to have come out as trans.

>>96888691
It really is the most embarrassing bit of troll spam this board has seen in a bit. I think people shitting all over ACKS in that last thread and then bullying him when he tried arguing just broke him and released his brain boogeyman personality.
We should have known he was crazy when he had that meltdown when he tried shilling ACKS in the 3.5 general, but actually having been trying to talk to a voice in his own head is a level of crazy I don't think anyone was expecting.

>>96888691
Shitposting in thread talking to himself for hours because he's mad that 2e is OSR is pretty wild.

>>96888716
when he tried shilling ACKS in the 3.5 general
>>96888747
>because he's mad that 2e is OSR

I took a look and it's actually the other way around. He's saying that 2e *is* OSR, and that he *hates* ACKS.

>>96888770
That's just the boogieman personality he's been waging his private war against on this board.

Know how he was just screaming "fishfag" and "2etard" and everyone? Apparently, those weren't posters on this board, they were voices in his head, which is why he'd often start screaming at people that weren't there.
>when he tried shilling ACKS in the 3.5 general
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96434718/#q96583816
He did it here, and this is also where he was screaming at the voice in his brain.

Now that personality has taken over, and he's spent the last several hours just shitting himself...

>>96888770
It's good that he's finally admitted that. Maybe he'll stop calling everyone fishfag since he was the real fishfag all along.

>>96888816
It's good either way that this happened. Now anytime he starts calling people fishfag, we can remind him of the time he had a complete psychotic breakdown and his inner fishfag personality emerged.

I'm kind of worried about him though. Raging for that many hours really can't be good for his mental health, and he's always been about as crazy as he could be. He might hurt himself.

>fishfag trying desperately to cope ITT while some other anon spams his troll thread to death
Don't like the taste of your own medicine, huh?

>>96888835
It seems that the shitposters have become the shitpostees.

>>96888835
Are you okay, fishfag? Or are we talking to the ACKS Shill right now?

>>96888835
If anyone asks whether you're insane, we've got a nice thread as proof.

>>96888827
[/spoiler]Good.[/spoiler]

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Where can I find an OSR game to play as a new player?
I only played a TTRPG once in my life but it was fun and i'm looking to have that experience again. And yeah I guess it would be easier to find a 5e game but idk, I've always been more fond of the sandbox style and hardcore difficulty of OSR games.
Is there any discord server to find OSR games? Preferably with a non woke community, btw.

>>96888960
https://discord.gg/xR2nGyHD

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>>96888970
thank you brother :)

>>96888970
>>96888981
wtf is it all play by post?
soo boooring

>>96889013
nah we just played a session tonight. also, no one has joined the server so youre a lying retard.

>>96887659
>Maybe I am in the wrong place, but is there a video game where I design the dungeon and then the computer runs a party through it?
Dungeon Keeper
War For the Overworld
Evil Genius

That's about as close as you're gonna get, really.

>I want the rules to be as close to old school D&D as practical.
Lol.

>>96889020
uhh but I did join the server
maybe your bot just broke

>>96886029
NTAYRT - as per the definition of OSR given in the OP, to say that 5e is a popular OSR system is erroneous. Outside of this thread that may be a point worth making, but within this sphere the statement is paradoxical. The definition of OSR is very specific & plainly does not cover 5th edition D&D, no games played using that system can be considered OSR.

>>96889174
Thread OP's don't mean anything when they're made by a faggot. Sorry, that's how 4chan works.

>>96886765
Speaking of, where is the best place to get high quality scans of all of WLoHF? I used to have some links but they have since deprecated.

>>96889217
Couldnt tell you, Anon. It's a shame that Conley stopped selling his revised color maps though.

>>96889276
I bought Map I off Judges Guild, shipped not in a tube (tube shipping was 'out of stock', only for Map I) and that ol racist gave me four maps to sturdy the shitty manilla envelope. Eurocucks stay winning over Ameripoors with our fortified cardboard envelopes, now you know if your pals need extra free maps. Paper quality could be better though.

>>96885724
I think I know where you're going with that but since 2e came out in around 1989 try asking why OSR didn't start in 1994 a few years after 2e was released, not 1984 five years before it was released.

>>96885668
>Because the OSR was originally an OGL phenomenon
How dare you spew such vile calumnies against Foster. Foster wanted unsullied reprints of old, out of print books, not new things released under the OGL. We all know he single handedly spawned the OSR with that one post saying they should make rpg reprints like Hasbro did with old board games. I know anon I'm replying to that you're literate enough to understand the irony there but for others who think Foster did start the OSR: </irony>

All I have to say on the entire situation is
Pick up the ACKSmans burden
The redditor disregard
For he is half a fish
And fully a retard

>>96889174
>The definition of OSR is very specific
Is that why people have been debating it for 20 years?

>>96888799
So you you actually play games?
Post literally any character sheet

>>96891215
That's just you. We don't have a problem understanding what is and isnt on topic, 2etard.

>fishfag outs himself as a nogames ESL
>disappears from the board in embarrassment

>>96891233
You don't understand the problem because you are retarded and think the OSR movement begins and ends with whatever is in the OP.

>>96891240
That would require him to have a shred of shame. He's currently pretending that no-no, there is no fishfag, it's all and has always been this "ACKS shill" guy who is actually both pro and anti ACKS and spends all his time arguing with himself because he's insane in the membrane or some shit.

>>96889013
>>96889036
No you didn't you lying disingenuous little creep.
You are a nogames just looking to complain about your delusions.

>>96891280
Do you actually have a 2e char sheet you can display? Even an old unused one?

>>96891233
>That's just you.
Are you sure? Because G+and reddit were/are probably more than me. CAGfags also agree that OSR has no concrete definition. And the forums were the real boomer grogs hang out think OSR is a thing posers do because they want to pretend to play old D&D while not playing old D&D.

>>96891280
You're retarded fuckwit who can't seem to comprehend that this isn't yout thread.
OP decides what the threat is about, and you are excluded.
Just make a different fucking thread if you feel this strongly about it, instead of shitting yourself in public and complaining that we won't supply you a toiletJust make a different fucking thread if you feel this strongly about it, instead of shitting yourself in public and complaining that we won't supply you a toilet.

You're an ESL nogames and you will never post your character sheet because you have never played in your life.

>>96891347
CAG is a joke.

Here's a tip: thread OP gets to determine what is or is not on topic regardless of how you feel about it or if it upsets you.
If you don't like this, feel free to go and talk about 2e in 5eg, since they are both DND and OP doesn't get to determine the thread contents :)

>>96888835
They got caught so they're just spamming as much nonsense as possible to obfuscate. Its all they have left.

>>96891373
Who got caught doing what? Because all I see is a 2etard spamming the LGBT art from his favorite edition

>>96891347
This is a weird take to try and push and no one who does has been able to adequately explain it.
>everyone else is doing it so you should too
when 4chan is specifically different from many other places online on purpose.

>>96891401
Just like he's incapable of discussing games he plays, he's incapable of forming his own thoughts or social structure to display them.
He is so mind broken that we are not giving him his CAG/G+ experience that it sends him into a frenzy.
The fact that the genuine and regular community here doesn't have any confusion about the subject of the thread, makes him angry because he wants his favorite addition to be included so that he is not left out.
He is a secondary, a nogames, and an ESL.

>>96891394
Fishfag/Acks shill, you shouldn't be on the internet right now. Your psychiatrist is worried about you.

>>96891233
Pretty sure you're in the wrong here, just by the virtue of people disagreeing with you.
Can't claim someting is uncontested in the middle of a contest.

>>96891394
2etard/fish/nightland spaz. You're pretty much reading it correctly. They're just flailing around now. The best they've been able to do is try and deflect pro and anti acks to being the same anon. Its
>loliwastrollingyouallalllong.jpg
bullshit. Like this >>96891421

Basically any consensus that doesn't agree with them is samefagging, etc. You know the troll drill.
like >>96891434

Same shit. They've got nothing and its very thin at the moment for them so they're just lashing out.

>>96891281
But that's exactly what you proved in your latest meltdown, fishfagfag. You can't deny it when you gave us an example for all time of just how insane you actually are. It's too late for you to even delete your hours-long self-embarassment, it's in the archive to show everyone forever.

>>96891352
tl;dr irony and retardation

>>96891447
And this sort of thing, just accuse everyone of it so it dilutes people's ability to read to the point they don't bother.

>>96891441
You really think after your meltdown anyone is ever going to see you as anything but the dumbest troll on this board?
You're kind of just adding evidence to how delusional you are right now.

>>96891456
Yeah there we go. Classic DARVO stuff.
Someone should get Dr. Clio here, she'd have anther paper.
Which boogyfishshill do you think this is?

>>96891363
So if OP says DDC is on topic that is now allowed in the thread? Please use your brain and not your ass when making posts.

>>96891454
You can't even claim to be this dumb as falseflagging, ACKS shill.

>>96891434
There is one person screeching about how 2e is off topic, everyone else seems to get the picture.
And yet when this person is pressed, they refuse to actually discuss that game, and further refuse to post any old character sheet they've ever had for it.
It's uncontested by everybody except a nogames tourist troll.
>>96891448
>Beep boop canned chatbot reply #6: you are retarded and incapable!
Honestly it's very intriguing I don't know if you're actually ESL or brain damaged or both. You've never denied either of them so I'm going to assume both.

>>96891464
The one having a new meltdown over having a public psychotic breakdown?

Looks like he's managed to knock himself back into his usual canyon deep groove on the record of "No, you're the one having a meltdown/gaslighting/who everyone laughs at/with your pants around your ankles, the reason they're pointing at me is because I'm pointing at you and how pee-pee-poo-poo you are."
Back to the usual rigmarole of girlboss, gatekeep, holy shit gas yourself already fishfag I suppose.

>>96891434
Honest question, do you think this is the thread for shadowdark?

>>96891477
No, you're just a butthurt troll who can't accept all the evidence and arguments from multiple people who disagree with you.
Hence, your meltdown tantrums.

>>96891481
I'm always fascinated amused and confused at his so-called "banter". It always amounts to these really pureile and formulaic insults you would hear an edgy 8 year old trying to come up with.
>You actually don't have a brain and that's why you can't read my posts!
>You're too dumb to know how to play games!
The irony being that he is both a nevergames and an ESL

>>96891483
>honest
Can't use that word when you're in the middle of an attempted deflection.
Really shit move. Now, can't treat anything you ever say as "honest", though that's been obvious for ages.

>>96891489
His accusations that the banter of others isn't very good and that their adventures are boring is pure projection from someone who is capable of neither.

>>96891484
Do you think that shadowdark belongs in this thread along with 2e? Why or why not?

Also, why do you absolutely refuse to post one of your second edition character sheets?

>>96891484
Nta I'm a new lurker to this general.
It does seem like based on previous OPs that 2e doesn't make the cutoff line.
But you said there's a lot of evidence, can you show me some of it, just out of curiosity?

>>96891489
Him calling you braindead is better than your attempts at witless wit though. You routinely embarass yourself whenever you try your hand at banter.
Maybe it's because you only have two modes: boring and annoying? Explains your trolling.

>>96891492
Is that really how you hope to cope?
We could do a collection of your most cring-inducing posts at this point, but anyone that tried to compile them would definitely just die of cringe.

>>96891490
You'll never answer that question just like you'll never post your character sheet.
And the reason is because you don't play games, and you don't discuss games, you just drift from community to community being disruptive and getting made fun of.

>>96891502
I've never tried any banter with him, he's like a child, he wouldn't be able to understand it.
You must be having some type of delusion episode right now, because I'm not your Boogeyman you're imagining.
However there is one poster who said the exact same things over and over and it's really amazing to see it consistently called out in every thread

>>96891515
>you won't fall for my bait
If you understand people are too smart to fall for your lame tactics, maybe you should try actually arguing honestly?

>>96891492
>>96891502
KEK
He really seems fixated on boring as being his main weapon for why something is inherently bad. It kind of just confirms to me that he is a third world villager addicted to marvel movies.

>>96891477
If you were smart you would see that way more than one person sees 2e as on topic you retarded fag. There no one in this thread who fits all the traits of your boogeyman.

>>96891527
If you act braindead, you're going to be called braindead. Maybe you should try something new, so you don"t have the same insults thrown at you?
You're actually kind of spoiled. Do you really expect people to put as much effort into calling you an idiot as you do in being an idiot?

Why is the ACKS fag having a tantrum in this thread now?

Asking you to post a character sheet proving that you play second edition isn't bait, and if you weren't an ESL, you would know what those words actually meant.
You don't play games, and you don't have a character sheet. You are brown, you are ESL, and you are a third worlder.

>>96891531
>I'm never going to post a character sheet proving that I actually play, because if I do, then.... Well I just won't okay!

>>96891560
That's textbook deflection. You do understand that, that's why you do it.
No one's falling for it, but you don't care, because if you cared how dumb you looked you wouldn't be trolling so hard in the first place.

>>96891560
>t. retard projecting parts of himself onto his boogeyman

>>96891542
>>96891535
Since there are so many fans of the game, it should be pretty easy for even just one of you to post a character sheet.
You do play, right?

>>96891593
>Pee pee poo poo you are projecting you have the dumb
At least try reading a dictionary or watching some more television shows that will expand your vocabulary you fucking bozo, it will at least help you blend in a little better

>>96891551
Don't look for rational behavior in the insane.

>>96891585
Deflecting away from what? The fact that you don't play games and don't even discuss them?

I've tried multiple times to get 2e discussions going in this thread and yet only one person replied. And there's nobody who can show me a character sheet as evidence of having a game.

You can claim deflection all you want, but you don't play games and you don't talk about games. You're just here to be a disruptive shitbag.

>>96891363
>thread OP gets to determine what is or is not on topic regardless of how you feel about it or if it upsets you
Only jannies determine what is or isn't on-topic, 4chan isn't a democracy.

>>96891401
>>96891420
You're trying to make yourselves into glorious martyrs speaking truth to power, but no one hears your message outside of your circlejerk.
>HE DOESN'T TALK ABOUT GAMES
Oh like you're doing right now?

>>96891610
Man, kinda wish there were some banter lessons you could take. Wouldn't stop you from being a retard, but it would at least let people bully you properly without feeling like they're picking on a retard.

>>96891629
>Only jannies determine what is or isn't on-topic, 4chan isn't a democracy.
And here we have, once again, proof that he doesn't belong here since he:
a: Respect Jannies
b: Calls on them as a source of authority

>>96891640
Not everyone gets their jollies trolling this board and evading bans like you.

>>96891649
The fact you think Jannies get to declare what each and every thread is about and that threads aren't, instead, a grass roots discussion between members of the community tells me all I need to know about how awe inspiritingly retarded you are.

>>96891663
NTA you were addressing, just pointing out you are the person who belongs here least.

>>96891500
nta either. mechanical fidelity to Adnd, most changes are miniscule and largely unimportant. dungeoncrawling/hexcrawling still perfectly doable in 2e, just not the default style of play but simply an option among many. The vast amount of adventures that come with it as well as the new material from the retroclones compatible with the edition. (one of the major differentiator between the osr and nsr)

My favorite part is ACKS is how, as the creator is a Nazi, the game sends redditors and ESL browns into a spiral.
If only varg's game did this well!

>>96891610
>t. More projection and fail

>>96891629
Then apply for a fucking janitor position. The first post of the thread determines what the topic of the threat is. If you don't like it start a new fucking thread. Your new here and you're a scumfuck.

>>96891676
Rational arguments don't work against trolls.

I think we just need to show people the meltdowns he's had and continues to have until no one's left to take him seriously.

>>96891560
>You are brown, you are ESL, and you are a third worlder.
how can one be so lame and cringe and still go on living, proudly even?

>>96891695
>Then apply for a fucking janitor position.
God. Don't give him ideas.

>>96891697
It's called trolling. He's deliberately trying to be as cringey as he can be, and ends up being even cringier because he's genuinely an idiot.

>>96891629
Yes he doesn't talk about games because he doesn't play them. Same reason he refuses to post a character.
I have however multiple times in this thread posted questions asking about people's favorite second edition material, which got ignored by everyone except one person.
So, why don't you post your character sheet? You do play, right?

Had a cool game yesterday. My players landed in Hommlet and spent the evening at The Welcome Wench Inn being clumsy as fuck with other patrons until the owner kicked them out. They spent the rest of the night around in a campfire at the herdman's field but got better luck in the morning as they managed to sell most of their minor stuff at the market.

The Thief met three different people during the day making contacts until he scored a fish big enough to sell his 6k stolen good for about 4k; just to be immediatly entangled into promising 9k to build a bastion.

The NOTvampire local mage taught the Magic User its second spell, then promised them unlimited freeboarding in its basement as long as they were to provide some services for him later on. They had a week to figure their shit out before he'll need them so they decided to get a pickaxe and return to the Incandescent Grottoes, up the river.

There they found the shortcut from the first room to the second level, then a wandering carcass crawler taught the Thief some humility while the Magic User just zoomed ahead kind of fed up with the Thief's bullshits. They managed to miss the dream dragon, the doppelganger and the whole ooze cult the first time they delved so I think they're underestimating the place by now and will start pilling up mistakes. Time will tell!

>>96891761
>people's favorite second edition material
ACKS fag here. Gotta be Birthright for me. I love the play on the divine right of kings and how it leans into it while making monsters unique and interesting.

The fact I can say my favourite 2e thing and Fishfag can't is damnable.

I forever will curse gook moot for what he did when he removed poster id

>literal self-admitted nogames trying to hijack a thread for a game they neither play nor talk about
Grim

>>96891683
marcus is just a cringe libertarian he's no where near based enough to be a nazi

>>96891776
Fellow ackstard here, that's not bad! If we're talking setting, I like dark sun and al qadim. I like the class and race handbooks for lore and occasional splat.

>>96891761
>act like a whiny retard who shits up the thread with crying about a boogeyman
>wonders why no one wants to do anything other than hurl insults.

>>96891776
Oh and on the flip side the most cringe 2e setting is Dragonlance. All day, every day, without exception or variation.

>>96891804
Big fan of Dark Sun as well, Al Qadim I'm so-so on, I do like the fact they changed it up and made it more about religious and political strife rathre than relying on the ol' good vs evil.

>>96891770
Great report! Hommlet is fun but can be overwhelming in detail for DMs, and the moathouse is a notorious meat grinder. Good job all around though! You using adnd1e?

>>96891810
>The reason I don't play games or talk about games or have a character sheet to show off is because people online are bullies!
Lol you're a powerless little bitch and if we were in prison I'd rape you until you fall in love

>Meanwhile Fishfags false thread languishes in complete obscurity, to the point where even he's abandoned it to come argue over here.
Hue

>>96891812
I agree dragon Lance is the worst setting for play, but I really do like the books.
They're like fantasy marvel movies, and while that makes for a terrible osr experience, it's pretty fun to read

>>96891816
We've talked about your bad banter already.
Are you TRYING to look as bad as you do?
That doesn't make it better, mind you.

>>96891850
>They're like fantasy marvel movies, and while that makes for a terrible osr experience, it's pretty fun to read
That's why I despise them personally. They set the paradigm that D&D has followed since of Bullshit OC steel doughnuts and "Oh, your character isn't that important, they're just here to Save The Entire Fucking World, that's all"

>>96891812
Dragonlance started in 1e. The modules are not very good but I think the setting itself is playable. Dark Sun is awesome. I have not looked too far into Al Qadim but it looks like it could be pretty good.
>>96891816
Yes, we can tell you are a huge faggot, retard.

>>96891847
You faggotted the thread to death so what the point posting there now?

>>96891898
Why are you acting upset? Just make a new one, and if he spends another weekend having a tantrum in it, just make another one.

>>96891854
That's not banter, that's an outright threat. Don't ever dox yourself because if you do I'm going to anally violate you