Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to first-decade, Gygaxian D&D, its faithful modern clones, and content created for use with them. Later editions (2e and newer) should be discussed elsewhere. Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons played as intended by its creators from 1974 to 1983 — less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching metaplots and a greater emphasis on player agency. If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about: we'll be happy to help you get started. We also have two excellent beginner guides created by Anons with feedback from the thread that you can check for help: >n00b DM's Guidehttps://pastebin.com/EVvt6P0B>n00b Player's Handbookhttps://pastebin.com/XALkXkV0 >Troves, Resources, Blogs, etc:http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128 >Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94994969/#95006768 >Previous thread:>>97504910>Thread question:What's your favorite hexmap?
Along with the link to the resources, and let me remind you all NOT to chomp the bait, nor to feed trolls – just report and ignore, lads.
>>97528535>What's your favorite hexmap?Hard to choose, but I'll go with Hârn
>>97528600I wonder if somebody has made a version using the traditional D&D icons, assigning a specific terrain to each hex.
>TQI have a special soft spot for the Sea of Five Winds for some reason – I can't even really explain why myself. It, Elphand Lands and Barbarian Altanis are my favorites in that order.
>>97528619Is it something about the geography? The content?
>>97528600The yellow here is...? Fields?
>>97528675Oh, I'm talking entirely about the geography here. The content as provided in the booklet is honestly pretty slim, no major cities (Tlan is about 1000 pop IIRC?), no ruins that are so memorable I could name them off the top of my head. No. It's just the balance of land and sea, and the decent-sized island in the northeast corner, I think. It gives the players a lot of freedom of movement, not just tirectionally but in terms of means and environment type. I think that's what it is.
>>97528742The original Hârn map (picrel) is infamous for having an imperscrutable colour palette. But yeah, it should be cropland & pasture.
>>97528769Nice! I presume you got your hands on the Bat in the Attic revisions, right?
>>97528773Kek, that key is like a deliberate shitpost
>>97528788No, I didn't! I have the full set of the original maps in print, so I decided it would be a needless indulgence and didn't buy. Now I feel like an idiot, of course.
>>97528793If I remember correctly it's a scan of a map whose colours faded very early because of poor ink choice. But don't ask me for a source.
>>97528802The PDFs are easy to get at least.
>>97528806That sounds very credible, but it doesn't fully explain why the Hills, Mountains and Marshland key hexes each contain three colors or, in the case of the Marshland hex, why none of those three colors seem to match the color of Ilmen Marsh or the Anoth Delta.Mind you, I've got no particular objection to Hârn as such, although it's not really what I'd choose to play if given my druthers; I respect the attempt at medieval verisimilitude. I'm really just agreeing with your statement that the coloring of that particular map is inscrutable.
>>97528817Yeah. Having the originals in print, though, I can say it's just not quite the same to have the maps in PDF form. Print booklets I could take or leave, I guess.
>>97528535>What's your favorite hexmap?my own :)but also icl i plopped my game in mystara because of the convenient hexmap i found online.>>97528545>oriental adventureskek
>>97528853>it's not really what I'd choose to play if given my druthersAbsolutely, the Hârn setting should be taken pretty loosely if one wants to use it for an OSR campaign. But it can be done.Some of the less medieval-similitude elements are worth stealing, in my opinion. The pantheon is excellent, the 6+1+1 Shek-Pvar convocations make a lot of sense (I'm not suggesting allowing specialists, but as an alternative classification for magic types), some of the monsters are iconic and worth porting over to any campaign, and the idea of the genesis of the Ivashu through Ivir is great. The Gargun are also pretty cool
I am 3d printing all of the BX monsters in 15mm scale for use at an open-table FLGS game. i fuckin love 15mm
>>97529040Neat! Got pictures?
>>97529058Not atm, Skeletons and goblins printed and primed. Im not good at painting but at this scale it should be fine. Will post laterI pulled their maximum roll amount from BX encounter tables and broke them up by category. Its going to be a long ordeal but a nice timewaster between games
>>97529087>Will post laterVery nice! Do that. And you're right, 15mm has a lot of advantages, especially when space on the tabletop is limited.
>>97529124The space is a bonus, but something about 15mm minis are just so soulfulUsing BriteMinis sculpts for everything I can get my hands on, I think most models I need are covered
>>97529087>I pulled their maximum roll amount from BX encounter tables and broke them up by category.I suspect you don't mean the maximum in wilderness lairs, since you're supposed to multiply the number appearing by 5. That's up to 300 kobolds or goblins...
>>97529040What square/hex size do you use with 15mm miniatures?
>>97529470as much as Id love to, wilderness lairs are definitely out of the question>>97529491I think it works out to something like 3/5 of an inch, so I think a half inch grid could probably be fine. I use a digital mapcase that can scale to my needs, and lay terrain+minis ontop of it.
>>97529511>I think it works out to something like 3/5 of an inch, 15mm? Yes, almost exactly.>so I think a half inch grid could probably be fineSo a 12-13 mm grid? That's pretty small! Although of course you can use them on a larger grid if you want, so that's not an issue.
>>97529511>>97529563BGG says>For 15mm figures, use 10mm round bases (metal washers), and use centimeters instead of inches for measurements and ranges.https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1314576/bases-when-using-15mm-figuresSo 2/5 of an inch for the grid, even less!
>>97528773>Mixed woodland is different of course than mixed forest and not to be confused colour-wise with cropland and pasture.Those colours are ... certainly a choice. It seems fitting with Harn's reputation for realism at the expense of everything else, however.I only know of it by that reputation. Is there anything worth using for OSR games, a Griffin Mountain sort of equivalent?
>>97528535>>Thread question:>What's your favorite hexmap?The one I make on the fly at the eable.
>>97530654>Is there anything worth using for OSR games, a Griffin Mountain sort of equivalent?>>97528935
>>97530654>>97531189I'd also push back on the idea that it's bad overall. There's more things I love about it mechanically, even though they're not useful for OSR games, so I won't go into them here.Ah, for instance: If you want to have ACKS-style "tampering with mortality" effects, to put a limit to how many times PCs can come back from 0 HP unscathed except for some forced bed rest (arguably a minor issue with AD&D), I think Harnmaster's system for generating graphic injuries is quite elegant. Much better than having a dozen ad-hoc tables, one for each damage type, like in Rolemaster.
Speaking of hex maps I have been trying to make some landmarks and point of interest in my setting, but I always struggle with how complex to make these smaller overland encounter sites. Usually I do a lair of a monster tribe or a bigger single monster and it's minions, or a ruin with something hidden to find like a secret hatch or a buried chest. I only intend them as smaller diversions between larger dungeon type locations, but I worry they lack depth when I just throw in some monsters and some treasure and then wing it from there. I do try and link even the smaller sites to rumours, like a woodsman in the village who stumbled across something weird, but I worry about repetition. Does anyone use any tricks in their own games when stocking a sandbox?
>>97531278Checking: Are you using one or more of (AD&D, ACKS, Wilderness Hexplore) to determine the points of interest dynamically as well?Or are you playing vanilla B/X and what you pre-generate is all you have?
>>97531278Personally I don't really believe in a consistent level of complexity, I think everything from a standing stone with some cryptic marks on it to a sizable dungeon belongs on the map. There should probably only be the one megadungeon, that's easiest for everybody, but besides that, no limit; there's no reason there shouldn't be dungeons of a full level or so in size (or equivalent locations, like a ruined city) findable by overland travel.I do have quite a few "ruin with a hatch" type locations, maybe more than I should have.
>>97531278>when I just throw in some monsters and some treasure and then wing it from there>lack depth that's okay, its not suppose to be that deep initially. Having a few sentences and an idea of how it fits into the hexmap/game world is key. This lets you extrapolate as needed if needed instead of having to front load tons of details and not use them. I tend to have a table reference, or make one, for the area with encounters that are terrain or vibe appropriate, a folder of lairs and smaller dungeons to pull out as needed and not worry about it overly much. I've had fun with landmarks from >Rackhell>The Manse >Planet Algol>Yoon-Suin>D4 Caltrops tables, lots of good stuff there, the wilderness hex pdf especially >DM's Miscellany Wilderness Dressing >Hubris, dcc I know but the tables worked well enough for other games I think I also struggle with rumours but have also come to accept that they're not always a thing players give a shit about. Which works really, you don't pay attention to or investigate everything you hear at the bar or whatever either.
>>97528535>favourite hexmap Too many to chose properly but this one an anon put together here from the Dark Emperor game is in the top 5 list. Running Carcosa at the moment and its map is only okay. I think I have the hang of the much larger hex size and how it runs for exploration but it feels a bit sparse even for how I like hexcrawls.
Trying to get into OSR play I often read that you should take a bottom up approach to worldbuilding. So a village, a dungeon and general surrounding but leave most else for later. However, I'm worried that not spending prep time thinking up the general history of the (part of the) world, races and the relevant religions is going to make it all feel very wide but thin. And make it hard for the players to make informed choices as to what kind of character they wanna play, esp. clerics, and the choices they make in the game world. Any thoughts on this?
>>97532528OSR is inherently a wide-but-thin play style, in your terms. Starting characters are fragile and putting too much thought into them at that stage will lead to timewasting and disappointment. In Gygax's own game the religions were pure gags, like the First Church of Cthulhu, Scientist.That being said, nobody says you're not *allowed* to invent general history, large-scale geography and so on; the advice is simply that as the game requires quite a bit of prep up front, perhaps more than many DMs are used to from other games, you should focus on preparing that which is immediately critical for getting your game started. Most of the time, another dungeon level will be more useful at the table than a general overview of the previous millennium.
>>97531981What is an imperial zot?
I just started reading the B/X rules> Inheritance> If the DM wishes, a player may name an heir to inherit his or her worldly possessions upon the death of the character. The local authorities will, of course, take 10% in taxes, before giving the inheritance to the heir. This heir must always be a newly rolledup first level character. This "inheritance" should only occur once per player.Do I understand this correctly that the new character will get some xp back by inheriting some money?> per playerSo if a player gets their character killed more than once they should start from level 1 all the time? Sounds kinda harsh if this old school thing supposed to have a high character lethality rate. Or was it meant to be per character?A high level party with a first level newly rolled character tagging along sounds dumb.
>>97533142>Do I understand this correctly that the new character will get some xp back by inheriting some money?No, you don't. XP are gained only for treasure retrieved from dungeons and other dangerous places, not from inheritance.>So if a player gets their character killed more than once they should start from level 1 all the time? PCs start from level one every time, not only after the first time.>Sounds kinda harsh Why? In real D&D, levels are something players earn by playing well, unlike in D&D knockoffs (AD&D 2e and WotC D&D), in which levels are something that the DM gives out to keep players happy.>if this old school thing supposed to have a high character lethality rate. That's a plebbit meme.>Or was it meant to be per character?Nope. "Per player" means per player.>A high level party with a first level newly rolled character tagging along sounds dumb.A coupe main misconceptions about this.First of all, you're thinking in terms of a one-character-per-player, single-party campaign, which is the assumption of D&D knockoffs, but it is NOT the assumption of real D&D. A first level character can go adventuring with other first level characters, and that is not an issue because expert players are supposed to have more than one PC, and pick a different one time based on the goals of the session.Secondly and equally importantly, even if you do run a single-party campaign, it's still not an issue: First level characters gain levels extraordinarily fast when adventuring with higher-level companions.
How many torches/lanterns is a good amount? Our party has 5 PCs 4 henchmen and 2 mules. Should lanterns be in the center of the group or up behind the frontline/rearguard? Should the light bearer have a shield or weapon in thier free hand?
>>97533239> That's a plebbit meme.I thought it was an excuse for poor character customization.
>>97531981It's a fascinating map, but I'm not sure how well it would work for a campaign. What scale would you use?
I don't mean to be controversial are bring up the cursed edition. But has any OSR company or fan group but together a book that can rival the Monstrous Manual? I used it for my homebrewed AD&D for a few years and it worked great but for my new Basic Fantasy campaign I'm looking to see if there's anything else since I know a lot of monsters got a power boost in AD&D
>>97534612Swords and Wizardry has Monstrosities, which covers more or less all the standard monsters, and Tome of Horrors which has more unusual and nasty things. Like all your standard D&D dragons are in Monstrosities, while ToH has Mist, Smoke, Dungeon, Cloud, Wraith, and Faerie dragons
>>97534612There was a fan compilation posted to here a few months ago that I quite liked. The various S&W manuals refo the monsters, which is rarely useful, but do add some nice lair encounters for each. Tome of Horrors Complete and Monstrosities are both the size of that book, and each more inclined towards classic adventuring.
>>97534358>I thought it was an excuse for poor character customization.No, character customisation at creation is minimal because you customise you character through play.>>97531981>>97534487Somehow it doesn't look as good if hexfriendified.
>>97534831>There was a fan compilation posted to here a few months ago that I quite liked.Do you mean the one where the guy did a really good job with the layout and images of AD&D monsters reproducing the style well but he had a really idiosyncratic list excluding a lot from the compilation which meant it wasn't a replacement for your existing monster books?He edited entries too iirc but he was kind enough to provide source files and I think a list of changes so you could work on your own faithful copy yourself original TSR errors included.
Kinda torn between Shadowdark and BX as a default system rn, BX Magic-Users start very weak for my taste but SD level 1 PCs are almost overpowered I feelLike, an Orc Fighter can start with a +5 bonus to hit and damage wtf
>>97534822>>97534831Thanks for the tip, kinda lame the monsters lack morale scores but flipping through it seems to be cool. I like the Flying Apes
>>97534901Shadowdark is off-topic garbage for WotCfaggots. B/X is based.>BX Magic-Users start very weak for my tasteYour WotCfaggot taste doesn't count until you've played B/X RAW for at least one year.
>>97534859Some errors fixed. I may add the towns tomorrow if I'm in the mood and there's interest.
>>97534901Wrong thread, friend
>>97534901Shadowdarks fine. I prefer it for the systems it's used to make like shadowcity blood & neon. It's more kf a sokid framework.>>97535045Right thread.
>>97534612The original Monster Manual is unironically better than the 2e abortion in every way.
>>97531981>Fornost is at 0224>Battle of Fornost is at 0912>there are two ZOLAHAURESLORs right next to each otherThere's a lot to like about this map, but there's undeniably some wack stuff in there too.
>>97535500Why do you think so? I found it fantastic, other than some of the overly long descriptions hiding some rules
>>97532528ymmv but I've found it thickens up over time through players getting up to shit, minimal but active factions becoming more defined as they engage with the world and players and you start having ideas based on random encounters and trying to fit it together. Starting with a dungeon, a settlement and a bit of the surrounding area is the default answer but also having just >northern ape clans written at the edge of the defined map adds a lot with minimal prep.
>>97533496>how many lightsEnough for more than 8 hours in the dungeon. Ideally enough for several days. >light and marching order Lantern in the middle, torch at the van and rear. You can drop a torch and it stays lit so they can fight as needed while the lantern provides directional lighting from a more protected position>other hand Varies by character. Probably a weapon or magic stick.
>>97534901Just use bfrpg.
>>97535564The 1e manual is more concise, has better monsters (demons, devils, the original version of the lich that doesn't do the annoying phylactery regeneration thing), and importantly is designed for an old-school edition with all that entails.
>>97535802BFRPG sucks
>>97535857Nuh uh.
>>97535564That's part of its charm. It's a little archaic, but in a cute way.Way better than 1e's in pretty much every aspect. Art especially.
New BX/OSE Anon back again from the previous thread.Am I understanding correctly that players should only be asked to roll ability checks when under pressure/in a hurry?
>>97535931Ability checks are an optional rule in B/X. I don't use them much, it's not great to put a whole lot of stuff under a check that characters never get any better at, no matter how many levels they gain. It's fine for a few things here and there IMO, but in general I like to assume they're skilled and capable adventurers and just let them do stuff if it seems reasonable.
>>97535030Neat, thanks anon. Always cool to see this sort of stuff people make.
>>97532528>Trying to get into OSR play I often read that you should take a bottom up approach to worldbuilding. So a village, a dungeon and general surrounding but leave most else for later.You can put as much detail as you want into the world but don't get bogged down trying to integrate it or let your navel-gazing come at the expense of making preparations for play. The "start small and from the bottom" advice is mostly so you don't get overwhelmed and/or so you don't spend your time writing about shit that never gets used.If you spend ten hours fleshing out and mapping your desert area only to have your players never visit the desert during the entire campaign then that's ten hours you could have spent putting the same effort towards writing about stuff that your players are actually going to interact with. That's not to say that you can't write about whatever strikes your fancy, though. Just keep it in your back pocket until you need it and make sure you're not building castles in the sky when you need to be mapping a dungeon.>However, I'm worried that not spending prep time thinking up the general history of the (part of the) world, races and the relevant religions is going to make it all feel very wide but thin. And make it hard for the players to make informed choices as to what kind of character they wanna play, esp. clerics, and the choices they make in the game world. Any thoughts on this?You should certainly fill in those details, but make sure you do it in a practical way. Immediately relevant gameplay details (class information, map of the immediate starting area, etc.) > tertiary gameplay details (local laws and regulations, more of the map, etc.) = relevant fluff (local history, NPCs, plot hooks etc.) >> less-relevant gameplay details > less-relevant fluff. Sounds more complicated than it is; basically just ask "how important is this to the next session and how much prep do I still have to do?" if you catch yourself going on a tangent.
>>97535931I don't use ability checks at all. Attack rolls, saving throws, and X-in-6 chances are all I need.
What's your opinion on starting players at slightly higher levels (2-3) Gygax style? I've been thinking about doing it for my BFRPG campaign starting this weekend
>>97535931I'm not dead set against ability checks but using them infrequently, like when there's enough uncertainty of a competent adventurer being able to pull off an action is the idea.I find relying too much on them leans quickly back into players wanting to roll for goddamneverything and it tries to become the default mode. >is making a roll for this important vs yes/no (but) and continuing to play the game? Faggy storygame wording but its a functional approach.
>>97537243Don't really see the point of starting at 2-3, the fragility is still very much there for most classes, especially at L2. 2d6 hp isn't that different from just max hp at L1. If its a module style adventure and you're bumping people up levels, skipping steps, purchased valour, etc. just start everyone at whatever high level you want like 7-10 and run the less common stuff.
>>97536175
>>97537243>What's your opinion on starting players at slightly higher levels (2-3) Gygax style?I would never do that, first level is loads of fun.
>>97534487>What scale would you use?Probably 5mile and not worry about it too much. Main hitch I see is finding sailing rules that make sense. Its been a backburner problem for years at this point. The map and rough idea is a Pirates of Dark Water post apocalyptic sort of campaign. >>97533051>20 Zots to a mile Hopefully we don't get into metric zots and shipping zots.
>>97537391Love this map, thank you for sharing.>>97537243I like starting from level 1, or 0 if using a funnel style adventure.The zero-to-hero aspect of games feels lessened when starting at higher levels
>>97537243I'm fine with it. I've found it's particularly useful if players are coming from a type of game with more resilient, heroic characters; in my case, I still required replacement PCs to start from level 1, if the initial character died and there was no henchman of the PC available to take over.In AD&D it might be less necessary since level 1 characters are more resilient by the book; IIRC Gygax was using this houseule with OD&D, and that's where I used it too.
>>97537243Gygax did that specifically in the context of tourney games and undersized parties.
>>97538046He supposedly did it in his home games in the last decade of his life though I guess you could argue those parties were all undersized.Still, since the typical modern RPG group will produce an undersized party by 1970s standards that qualifier doesn't much knock the idea, tb h.
>>97535857NTA. I wouldn't say it sucks but it's better to steal ideas here and there for a batter base.I find interesting how LL, BFRPG and ACKS all changed the treasure tables, which originally had way more logic AND flavor that people give credit for.What was the logic behind that, copyright?
>>97538523LL didn't change the treasure tables, it just renamed them, most likely out of concern for copyright reasons.ACKS changed them to achieve some specific goals. I dislike that it loses backward compatibility in the process, but they're much more rational and easy to use and adapt for different play styles. So there's pros and cons there.The changes in BFRPG are the ones that are completely indefensible. They're random and with no rhyme or reason except for the retarded one that Gonnermann is a FOEtard who doesn't use XP for gold. So as a result you have something that you can't use if you want to use XP for gold.
>>97538897>but they're much more rational and easy to useAren't at best AS MUCH? How can they be easier to use? And the old ones had in fact an internal logic if one looks at the type of monster that has a certain type of treasure in the profile.
>>97538917>How can they be easier to use?Off the top of my head:Progressive value of treasure by letter. Treasures come in three different categories (hoarder, raider, and incidental) with different compositions when it comes to the relative value of coins, gems, and magic items with each.For each letter (A-Z) and type (hoarder, raider, and incidental), choice between three different styles of composition: Classic, Heroic, and Gritty. As a consequence, choice between awarding magic items (a) traditionally by item type, with the probability of coming across an artifact on the first level of a dungeon, or (b) by item rarity, ensuring that the value of magic items encountered is appropriate to the overall value of the treasure.The value of individual gems and jewels in each hoard increases with the letter, which makes more sense.Some really cool tables to determine weapon and armour types depending on the campaign's milieu (arthurian, viking, classical, swords and sorcery, and so on). Mostly flavour, but pretty cool.Rational values of magic items, with formula to determine the value of magic items you design yourself.
>>97539010>choice between three different styles of composition: Classic, Heroic, and Gritty.This must be the new edition I don't find it in the SRD
>>97538897>The changes in BFRPG are the ones that are completely indefensible.in what way exactly?
The next Carcass Crawler (#7) will contain a mini-adventure called Sins of the Fishwife. I lolled.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishwife
>>97539271The very next sentence.>>97539159Yeah, ACKS II is four times the page count of the original book. Looking for stuff in the SRD is not going to help most of the time.
>>97539313>The very next sentence.that's not saying anything can you be more specific what bothers you with BFRPG treasure tables? what do you mean by "They're random"?Obviously the % to find nature of old-school D&D treasure makes them random, yes.
>>97539335The CHANGES are random. As in, without any defensible rhyme or reason. Meaning, if you use those tables with XP for gold (which you should), the progression in your game will be broken.
This discussion on the treasure table makes me think about the % chance for each entry.The magic items etc part is self explanatory, and so are the gems/jewels in part, but I always found funny how most chances are 25% to 50%.What not increasing the chance but decrease the money maximum for the same averages?I guess they wanted to avoid same-y treasures.
>>97539359If that's what you're concerned about, you won't be breaking anything if you change 50% of 1d12 thousand gp to 100% of 1d6 thousand gp.But you don't need to do it, it all evens out in the end.
>>97539358>The CHANGES are random.which changes?in what way are they broken?>without any defensible rhyme or reasonand what the fuck is that even supposed to mean?do you have to reply in riddles?just get to the point>so and so the treasure classes are modified>this and that the treasures don't give enough or give to much treasureI got to say it looks like you are dodging the question because you don't actually know
>>97539313>Yeah, ACKS II is four times the page count of the original book. Looking for stuff in the SRD is not going to help most of the time.Ok thanks
>>97539359>I always found funny how most chances are 25% to 50%why do you find it funny? how would you do it?>What not increasing the chance but decrease the money maximum for the same averages?I suppose I should read 'why' instead of 'what'?depends on what you are going for.more $ with a smaller % will produce more results that feel like a total disappointment but more results that feel like you've won the lottery as well.less $ with a larger % will smooth it out. you are more likely to find something but it won't be as much, and you are less likely to find noting and it's not such a big deal
For anyone interested in the difference between BFRPG and B/X treasure tables. Glad someone mentioned this. Before my campaign got started
>>97539575are you the >>97539358 anon?that's not "the differences"that's a picture of tables side by side
>>97539596No I'm not. Surprised you don't understand anonymous image board culture and how to tell the differences between two images. Seriously what that guy was talking about should be self evident to you after taking a quick look
>>97539606>Seriously what that guy was talking about should be self evident to you after taking a quick lookoh really?so you can tell me what is the difference in mean gp value acquired by lair treasure type F "with a quick look"?how about all of lair treasures?can it be done by "taking a quick look"?
>>97539629>100's of gold>1000's of goldYou're really stupid
>>97539271>>97539335>>97539399Fuck off, Fishfag.
>>97539575I have to say, the % increasing by dragon age category for H is kinda neat.
>>97539635>muh 100 vs 1000no, you are really stupidas proven once againthe mean values for BFRPG treasures are actually virtually the same as in OSE and the same values are meaningfully the same as for B/X except for [debatably] F difference in M is not meaningful due to rarity, K due to small absolute values* note I'm comparing a 1 gp precision actual calculated values to OSE's and B/X rules stated mean values which are rounded, actual differences are probably even smaller
>>97539694>as proven once again
>>97539778This is sad, you're sad
This whole BFRPG treasure table argument seems dumb. Maybe even fishy The real fucked up thing in BFRPG is the dungeon stocking tables.
>>97539782Dude he showed you the mathIt's obvious that you just looked at two different tables without understanding how averages workShut the fuck up please
The same fagging isn't even subtle
a screencap for the future [de]generations
>>97540261the spoiler part elaborating on why changes aren't meaningful should be included as well
The original, primary criticism of BFRPG was not treasure tables, it was the dungeon stocking tables, which is why most of that first fishy screencap doesn't even mention treasure. Dungeons stocked with BFRPG will be 3e-style sardine cans filled with monsters and very little treasure, which is shit for an OSR game. Somehow that seems to have gotten telephone-gamed by some anons into "the treasure tables are bad" by anons, but those aren't actually terrible. Placing treasure is a part of stocking dungeons, but the treasure tables are not the dungeon stocking tables.
>fishfag is a redditor
>>97540469>I accused you of this thing therefore it's true and therefore me acting like the biggest shit in the world is completely fineGood thing you're not wrong then I suppose. If you were boy would you be such a massive, insufferable faggot, am I right?
>>97540469Nigga. Seagulls don't organize raids on a garbage dump. They just eat there.
>>97540351>stocking tablesthere is a reason bfrpg-butthurt anon never mentioned them thoughhe is retarded and wrong as always, and the tables are good and absolutely compatiblebut would he be right that would be at least somewhat of a substantial argument against BFRPG(you)r point however is a retarded non-argument because stocking tables aren't even part of the ruleset at allthey are just guidelines to help create a dungeon would a DM/author require said helpand if you are specifically going to insist on being a pedantic prick about it, I'll save you the time and let you know in advance it actually evens out with other things, once again leading to results similar to B/X recommendationsbut you have to actually have experience running the game to know that which obviously none of you retarded fuckers doso shut the FUCK up and sit down, bitch.
Can I get OSE stats for Satan?
>>97540606I don't know, CAN you?
>>97540613I would tell you that you are useless, but you hear it enough from your wife and children.
>>97528545Newfag here. Where do i search for the password?
>>97540602>If the stocking tables are busted and wrong, that doesn't count because they're not REALLY a part of the rules and you can just fix them!So, we're back to this retarded excuse for an argument again.
>>97540639>you are running B2 for your mates, the adventure has the dungeon pre-stocked>you are thinking of creating an adventure for your mates, you just do whatever the fuck you want to do, and maybe use the dungeon stocking tables if you want toyou think Gygax used dungeon stocking rules RAW when writing his adventures? have you DMed a single one of them?once again there wouldn't be any need in this discussion were you not a bunch of dimwitted morons
Do you guys actually have games or you just like to flex about having the "better rules"?
>>97540695When people recommend a game to newbies, we prefer they don't recommend books that contains busted rules that newbies won't know how to fix. This triggers the BFRPG fanboys, I guess. And of course fishfag comes along to tout the purity spiral that's gonna happen any day now, because if we say that BFRPG is not very good, then somehow it's not OSR, and we hate all retroclones.
>>97540351>The original, primary criticism of BFRPG was not treasure tables, it was the dungeon stocking tablesYou're not wrong, those are also shit. But the treasure tables are also and separately dogshit and above all, you have to admit that it's pretty funny that Fishfag can't tell 100s of coins from 1000s and made a whole little spreadsheet calculus overlooking that.
>>97540638There is no password. Are you sure you went to the right URL? (I have some vague recollection from the share thread that you're not supposed to post the URLs in bare text so I won't, but I just tried it and it worked.)
>>97540639Don't even argue with him. Just report and ignore. Seriously. Feeding trolls never works.
>>97540781At this point I'm not even sure there is a genuine BFRPG fanboy here. Anyway, you're completely right: BFRPG is absolutely an OSR game. It's just not a very good one.
>>97540997I'm gonna humor you, since you replied to me. Let's compare one of the treasure types, we'll do B 'cause why not.BFRPG: 75% 5d10 100s of copper, 5d10 is 5-50, avg 75 = 75% of avg 2750 of copper = 2062 copper50% 5d6 of silver = 60% of avg 1750 = 1056 silver 50% 5d4 100s of electrum = avg 625 electrum 50% 3d6 100s of gold = avg 525 goldB/X: 50% 1d8 1000s of copper = 50% of avg 4500 copper = 2250 copper 25% of 1d6 1000s of silver = avg 875 silver25% 1d4 1000s of electrum = avg 625 electrum25% of 1d3 1000s of gold = avg 500 goldBFRPG type B gives and average of: 2062 copper, 1056 silver, 625 electrum, 525 goldB/X gives an average of: 2250 copper, 875 silver 625 electrum, 500 goldBasically they're not very different despite using 100s over there and 1000s over here, and anon, I'm afraid you might be Limmy in this sketch:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fC2oke5MFg
>>97541260>5-50, avg 755-50, avg 27.5
>>97541260>5d10 is the same curve as 1d8×10kek
>>97542700Never said it was, but the average is the same, so it's not like it's a huge game-breaking change. But you knew that, you just wanted to be a faggot, huh?
>>97540997
>>97542811kek. It is nice to be reminded that fishfag doesn't actually have a monopoly on being retarded in /osrg/, although he has kinda cornered the market.
"Player skill" is just a nicer way to say "cheating".
> less math and more roleplayBut what if I want math, what is the opposite of this?
>>97543345...who told you that?
>>97543922Some guy on youtubeSo you think this is not true?
>>97543944No specific thoughts on it one way or the other with such limited attempts at conversation on your part. Might think you're an idiot but not too worried about it.
>>97543345I am more of an exception here because I also love OGL games. I can answer to you and to this anon >>97543019If you want a lot of rolls and pre-made skills, play a later edition like 3e or later. But be warned - you will end up in the infamous trap: "you need a skill or feat to do that" becoming more and more suffocating the more options are there.
>Fishfag apparently vanishes>shortly afterward, news that some Canadian tranny has shot up a school and killed himselfHmmmmmmmmmmm...>>97537391This version of the map looks a lot better than the previous ones you made, which is actually kinda weird since the sea color you were using before was closer to the original map. Anyway, nice work, Anon!>>97545123I can't believe you don't like riding and swimming proficiencies preventing PCs from being competent at basic adventuring tasks! The character looks stupid and the player gets mad, it's a win-win situation.
>>97545230>I can't believe you don't like riding and swimming proficiencies preventing PCs from being competent at basic adventuring tasks!I think the only plausible alternative would be that everyone gets a base unless exceptions happen (desert origins, no swimming).Then skills, which should be OPTIONAL, can allow you for some extended breathing underwater, faster swimming, riding tricks.
>>97545338>2 threadsOf the same guys, making identical bump posts.
>>97545123In my experience only OSR type games and GURPS handle stuff like that well. Things like swimming and climbing need to be a thing everyone can do somewhat or if you have to have skill points the barrier should be low so stuff like that is a very incidental investment of character power. When you are a 3.x fighter and barely have any skills it is almost impossible to justify spending skill points on anything you don't plan on using a lot.
>You are a cool guy>You are running a West Marches game with 30 players>You have between 3-6 players per session>You are running a mega-dungeonHow do you handle mapping exactly? I've tried several different things at this point, but I feel like making mapping not feel like homework is the final piece of the puzzle. Currently I sketch out the map as they explore and it is up to them to copy it/make notes/whatever they want, but it isn't quite working. The players are able to navigate through the mega-dungeon by remembering various points of interest, but the specifics get lost. Some things are shared between players, but many details get lost between sessions. I even tried to teach some players a hyper simple lines-and-boxes approach to represent corridors and rooms, which I thought would make it easier for them, but during sessions the players are so caught up in what is going on in-game that they rarely note things down. Please share your insights and experiences.
Is there a pdf archive of Dungeon Crawl Classics?
>>97546600>>>/pdfsharethread/GYG
>>97546576My core insight is that if the players are too dumb to map even to the extent of just copying down the shit you drew for them, that has to be on them. It's not your job to make it as fun and exciting as a rollercoaster to maintain a solid dungeon map, if they can't see the benefits they simply don't get them.
>>97546150>When you are a 3.x fighter and barely have any skills it is almost impossible to justify spending skill points on anything you don't plan on using a lot.When people complained about the 3e Fighter I always laughed my ass off for the REASON they did. If you have like 1 splat you can already build a very effective one but the low skill points for a non-caster was CRIMINAL.But let's avoid the off topic
>>97547396>linked articleSkills were a 1e idea, in the form of NWP. Or as the guy argues, skills were a OD&D idea in the form of thief skills that he says everyone was already doing before thieves turned up in the rule books.
>>97547570>skills were a OD&D idea iI disavow not just skills, but also Greyhawk and all its contents.
>>97547570>a OD&D idea in the form of thief skills that he says everyone was already doing before thieves turned up in the rule books.That's a misreading of the thief's abilities according to Mornard. They're not basic adventure skills, they're class abilities.
>looking for the dungeon>we think we got pointed in the right direction by the local centaurs>Avoid a fight with jackals because we don't think they would have treasure>one of us sees something shiny in a tree>witch decides to send up the familiar to take a look while the rest of us get ready to knock it down and catch it in a blanket>dragonflies>11 giant dragon flies>2HD and AC 5>we are level 1A bit ridiculous for a random encounter. Thankfully our HP lasted longer than their morale but just barely. 2 PCs went down and for some reason they had a magic scroll in thier nest.The good news is while were forced to go back to town I got to try and hire the level 0 priestess from last week again and this time I didn't fail.The bad news is she has 1 hp and 8 CON The other good news is that a wand we found on our previous adventure got identified and it is worth 10K if we can find someone who wants to buy it. So instead of going into the woods again we begin the trek to the big city next week.
>>97546576"West Marches" is a 3e thing. We just call it (semi-) open table D&D here.I do mapping by the book: I describe the rooms. Watch GFCDND's video on calling out maps if you're having trouble with it.
>>97545230>This version of the map looks a lot better than the previous ones you made, which is actually kinda weird since the sea color you were using before was closer to the original map.The thing is, in hex friend the shallow sea light blue and grass/empty light green are actually relatively close, making them a bit hard to tell apart. It's much easier to see whether a given river/channel connects two creaters in the last version.
>>97546576>during sessions the players are so caught up in what is going on in-game that they rarely note things downThat's your players' problem, though. I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.If they get lost, they get lost.If they die, they die.
>>97546576It's your job to tell them what's in the rooms and shit. It's their job to figure out how to survive it and accomplish their goals. If they fuck up because they didn't map correctly then so be it. Maybe they'll learn their lesson and map better or take better notes next time.
>>97548212>A bit ridiculous for a random encounter.Wilderness adventuring is not scaled for level 1 characters. Your DM may not have realized this.Still, you got away by the skin of your teeth, so good for you!
>>97546576>Currently I sketch out the map as they exploreGenerally mapping the dungeon and world is the player's activity. You already have a several maps. Your descriptions and their interpretations are turned into the player map. Its part of the game to be able to describe and listen, ask questions, etc. Its occasionally useful to draw an outline of a particularly challenging room or cavern description but the players should be doing the main of it. They should have a player and player character designated as the mapper, its an item in their inventory and can be engaged with like anything else. It can get wet, burn, or otherwise be jeopardized in ways that make their exploration more hazardous. >details get lost Give them a notebook, tell them to take notes. Doesn't have to be an essay, bullet point is fine but if someone isn't writing things down they're fucking up. >my players are retarded wat do? Explain, demonstrate and expect to do so again as they learn through trial and error. There has to be error though or they'll never learn.
I scrolled through Dolmenwood. While I don't like the overall tone, I think there are things to steal there for a normal OSR game.I am intrigued by the "smooth" progression of saves and "to-hit".
>>97549341>I am intrigued by the "smooth" progression of saves and "to-hit".That's far from a Dolmenwood innovation. A bunch of OSR games have that, e.g. ACKS.
>>97549488True. But it's good. I also pilfer from ACKS say the -1 to TH weapons, albeit the damage dies are closer to BX in my case.I also find the Dolmenwood camping rules interesting. Maybe too many rolls, but can be used in special occasions.
>>97549595>I also find the Dolmenwood camping rules interesting. Maybe too many rolls, but can be used in special occasions.I think they're fine. I would only dispense with the cooking and telling stories part. It gets old quick.
>>97549686I don't care much about that but I think the wood foraging + a random weather table (or even an enemy that can cast control weather if encountered) can create cool survival situations.
>>97528535Genuine question, since it's usual for a player to have several characters, why not just make more characters rather than use retainers? I'm talking about the guys the party takes with them in the dungeon, not mercs of course.
>>97549749NTAYRT. I agree, I have made my own weather tables. Only instead of being mostly flavour they have actual in-game effects.
>>97549595>I also pilfer from ACKS say the -1 to TH weaponsWhat's that? I'm not familiar. Throwing Weapons? Thrusting? Two Hands? To Hit?
due to a combination of friends going out for valentine's (normies reee) and some other friends being busy with work next week, i'm running another game the week after our last. i was thinking of throwing in a small dungeon in the sewers maybe, or some sort of ruined church and convent in the swamp they could crawl around in. haven't really decided on anything since i haven't looked through my pdfs for dungeons to steal and i've used my personal maps in other games.how are you guys?
>>97550031I assume two-handing only has a -1 initiative penalty in ACKS vs. B/X where it forces you to always go last iirc.
>>97549796>why not just make more characters rather than use retainersIf your DM allows you to run multiple PCs at the same time, retainers don't make any sense. I encourage players to make more than one PC, but never allow them to run more than one at the same time in the same party. There's a case to be made that Gygax says the same in the DMG.
L O L
>>97548585It isn't the GM's fault that the world is cruel. We are just unlucky that while searching the patch of forest we think the dungeon is in we ran into a lair instead and he rolled 11 on 2d6 for the number of monsters. Thinking about it an average roll would have been manageable because we did kill 7 of them before the rest fled.
>>97550167Maybe in ACKS but in AKCS II there is no initiative penalty for that.
>>97548212>A bit ridiculous for a random encounter.You know you can run away from encounters, right?
>>97551270Friend anon. Dragonflies fly significantly faster than a character on foot can run and we were outnumbered.
>>97551700>Dragonflies fly significantly faster than a character on foot can run and we were outnumberedFYI, in B/X and AD&D being slower does not prevent wilderness evasion, and being outnumbered actually makes it EASIER to get away.
>>97551773Can't evade if people are surprised unless you want to leave them to their fate.
>>97551872>That postMan it's always refreshing seeing him meeting strange, new people and them all deciding he's an arrogant, autistic cunt one by one.It really does make it clear that the problem is him, not anyone else.
another reason why 2E sucks: all weapon ranges are now the same value, but in yards (3x as far)why?
>>97551872please seek mental health treatment
>>97549341Any thoughs on clerics getting an extra cast from shrines?>>97549749>>97549686Agreed, I still use cooking and story telling but only if it can affect the nights rest and do it quickly. >>97550107The sleeping creature and bloated body encounter are no good as you should still be rolling checks when the players aren't moving(checking/rechecking for traps as examples).Map looks fun otherwise.
>>97550107thats called a lair
>>97551836NTAYRT, but I suspect that>>97551818was meant as a reply to>>97551737Assuming that was the case:>Can't evade if people are surprised unless you want to leave them to their fate.And that's why we have group surprise. Individual surprise fucks up wilderness evasion. You're not using individual surprise, right?
I keep finding in old systems (BECMI etc) and new ones (ACKS etc) grapple/wrestle rules that assume that being armored makes grappling more difficult compared to be unarmored.Is this really the case logically speaking? Full plated men-at-arms were able to, shouldn't armor make you less vulnerable?
>>97553219I dunno, the historical record was pretty clear that the number one killer of guys in plate armor was getting grappled and a knife run through the chinks in your armor
>>97550031its nonsense babble
>>97551700so what, dummy? did you even TRY to escape?>>97553228>is LESS mobility bad for grappling???take a wild guess!
>>97553230It was clearly Two-Handed weapons, come on.>>97553228>>97553234Mobility is important but is it all? If I am armored certain things from an unarmored opponent will simply not work.
>>97553288Armor restricts your movement, an experienced grappler can take advantage of that to pin you, and once you're pinned, it doesn't matter that some things don't work when "slip a knife through the chink of his armor and wiggle it until he stops fighting back" is the only finishing move you need. It helps if you have a second or third guy to grab him, but you can apparently do it one-on-one.
>>97553288So -1 what for two handed weapons, initiative, hit chance?>Mobility is important but is it all? Did you just get told as much?>If I'm armored certain things from an unarmored opponent will simply not work.Like what
>>97553332>>97553345Behold the tale of two answersBy a smart man >>97553332And by an arrogant retard >>97553345
>>97553415behold, a dipshit with no critical thinking skills, begging to be coddled and spoonfed
Working on a 2e night below campaign, any tips on running it?
>>97550741But what if you only got 2-4 players? They bring a lot of retainers with them?
>>97553639If you're going out into the wilderness earlier than level 4, then yeah, you want to bring some backup.
>>97553622Ignore the elf subplot and just make it a underdark crawl.
>>97552013honestly the idea struck me like a bolt of lightning because i patched a bunch of points of interest all around my hexmap thinking some of the non-dungeon buildings would be good landmarks for navigation, but then they just wanted to go to an abandoned windmill so i made it a little hideaway for the lizard men patrols that wander the swamp.>>97551998not my map, it's curse of the maggot god from one of the ose adventure anthologies. got it when i got the boxset from kickstarter.the gang, down two bodies wandered around the woods a bit before seeing an old abandoned windmill off in the distance. after about a day's travel, the group wandered inside and graffiti'd some vulgar remarks about the dwarf's genitalia on the wall. they're then accosted by a party of lizard men back from a walk through the swamp, and almost get smoked twice after some lucky rolls. the book mentioned that smaller hideouts for denizens should be scaled appropriately (and tbf, it's possible i just don't know the rules that well) so i only rolled for a pile of gold on the second floor of the windmill, which ended up amounting to about 4k total. a great haul, but how would they make it back home?they decided to send their 3 hp magic user (lol) to run back to town and buy a draft horse with some of their funds, who then got lost for the first time this campaign (lol), and nearly got pincushioned by gnolls(lol). he ended up making it back to town while the rest of the group spent a couple days dragging their bags of money and hiding from any potential fiends that would try to rob them. they met up at some point in the middle and loaded the horse up. everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got real happy about "finally" getting a win, which makes me think i should really try to stuff some more treasure in the caves whenever they next check them out. the cleric also leveled up, officially making him the strongest character from an hp perspective (while also having a -1 str bonus).
>>97553747re-reading my post the writing is pretty bad, i'll blame being tired from the gyma and being generally up too late. enjoy one of my player's hexmaps he's been trying to fill in as they explore. one of the others mentions it reminds him of the girls with pretty notes from class.they're swimming with ideas for what to spend the money on, with one particular stand out being securing the windmill to use as a base for their cavern delves. i like the idea but the book doesn't have any prices for palisades or just loose camps. i can't imagine some spiky logs would cost a ton but just the labor of making them would probably cost something no? the mercs manning the camp definitely would. i'll probably take a look in the morning.
>>97553639That's exactly what henchmen/retainers are for: For a player to run more than one at a time. It's literally the ONLY reason to get them. If you allow multiple PCs per player, they're basically pointless.
>>97553758>i like the idea but the book doesn't have any prices for palisadesAre you sure?? What book?
>>97551998>Any thoughs on clerics getting an extra cast from shrines?NYAYRT. It's a gimmick. Gavin decided he was going to have three features per six-mile hex (which is too much to begin with), and creating one shrine per Cleric spell was a way to spam a bunch of them.For the most part they're okay, but I would be wary of a shrine allowing to spam Raise Dead without limit. I would probably limit their use using the ACKS II for custom powers, by which the frequency of use depends on the spell's level.
>>97551967Agree, all distances should use metric units.
>>97553671Thanks anon. Arethere sny giod resources for underdark stuff for 2e?
>>97553815ose's stronghold/construction section had prefabs but i didn't see anything like a palisade. i saw some guidance for custom fabrications but i didn't really look at it yet. i haven't checked my b/x pdf either so it's possible it also has something.
>>97553836Use the DMG ones. This is from page 107
>>97553758>they're swimming with ideas for what to spend the money onYou're lucky! A bunch of DMs have trouble with players not having any idea what to do with gold.>>97553622>>97553671>>975538352e is off-topic per the OP. Kindly take this discussion elsewhere, thanks.
>>97553867oh cool, weird that ose has only like half of these. wonder how long of a palisade wall you'd need to keep a windmill safe. something to google when i wake up.>>97553879my friends and i were like that until reading enough retroclones suddenly made it click in our heads that you can literally do anything if you have enough money. i really have no idea how we just completely missed that. now the less imaginative ones are just having fun slaying monsters and wandering around and contributing to the group fund while the more imaginative ones wanna do things like start a weird traveling caravan of murder hobos or setup a stronghold in the swamp. personally i'd also like to drop in that one weird volcano dungeon somewhere i can't remember the name of and have them bounce around on some spinning plates. i used the 5e remix of that dungeon a long ass time ago and it'd be funny to run it with characters that can actually die. maybe somewhere far to the north of mirros in some mountains.
>>97553835veins of the earth is pretty great for anything underdark, i reccommend giving that a look. also 2e's dungeon survival guide.
>>97553622>>97553671>>97553835>>97553950Sorry, but 2e isn't OSR and doesn't belong in this general. Take it to /2eg/: >>97552533
>>97553896>weird that ose has only like half of these.That's the sort of thing that makes AD&D the advanced one (and the DMG kind of indispensable).>wonder how long of a palisade wall you'd need to keep a windmill safe. something to google when i wake up.Wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Just tell the players the palisade is 100 gp per 100 feet, provide a map of windmill and environs, and let them draw it out how they want.
Which OSR system would be best for a Warhammer Fantasy setting?
>>97553950thanks anon. i should post some notes for my campaign later.So far the players are>Elf illusionist>dwarf Fighter>Human thief>Human fighter>Human Cleric>Elf ClericThey're all pretty excited.
>>97554112Sounds great anon! Myself personally, i've been prepping some BX stuff for friends of mine. I converted some BFRPG index card character sheets to BX, need to figure out how to make them A4 printable.
>>97554129This looks awesome anon. 2e is a bit too complicated for index sheets sadly, that would be super useful.But hey, it is what it is!
>>97554074Look up Paul of wandering DMs's Ten Dead Rats. It's a mash-up of Deltaof wandering DMs's OED with WHF. The "core" is still recognisably OD&D.https://www.paulsgameblog.com/ten-dead-rats/
>>97554180Will give it a read, cheers
Are there any good extra classes for DCC?
>>97554131don't worry, you'll get there anon.
>>97554237Honestly don't knowI'm not a fan of DCC, the gimmicky dice and level 0 stuff put me off.i played a oneshot at a con last year, biggest achievement was that ALL of my characters survived.
>>97554131that's kind of the tradeoff you get with 2e or 1e, it's a lot of extra complexity. It's why i stick with basic, i like the simplicity.
>>97553429You are clearly the retard. Learn how to make your point.
>>97554546>word for wordHuh. Who knows what stupid nonsense he is trying to pull.Anyways, i'm looking forward to running night below, the aboleth's are what i am really looking forward to having. I'm going to impliment them less as a plot and more as a big sandbox. It will be great.
>>97553835The drizzt books. Exile in particular for underdark, Homeland for Drow society.
>>97554339>>97554394>>97554546>>97554558>>97554597Sorry, 2e is off-topic in this general, as it's not an OSR game. Take it to /2eg/, the dedicated thread for 2e! >>97552533
>>97553950>also 2e's dungeon survival guide.Doesn't get the love it deserves.
>>97551773>>97551836Why did these get deleted? They're being polite?
>>97555479Fishfag mass reports any mention of him or his bullshit and the Jannies give him the salad toss when he does.
>>97550107I'm okay, too much work shit going on to get consistent weekly gaming which is a bit of a bummer for the next month or so. 3 players want to go back and restart a campaign that was put on hold a while back so that's encouraging. >map Not a big fan of detail with no active participant encounters, you can just key those in rooms and keep the encounter table more dynamic. The 1:6 chance followed by a 2:6 chance of it being not a thing that engages with player character time and encounters as resource drain seems off too me. What's a Fatberg?
>>97554225>>97554244Strange that these posts were deleted, while all the deliberately off-topic 2e spam stays up. Also, fuck off, Fishfag.
>>97554558Aboleths are fucking awesome. I don't know if Night Below is where they first became such awesome villains, but it did a great job with em.>>97555496>fatbergDon't google image that shit.
>>97555496>Not a big fan of detail with no active participant encounters, you can just key those in rooms and keep the encounter table more dynamic. The 1:6 chance followed by a 2:6 chance of it being not a thing that engages with player character time and encounters as resource drain seems off too me.NAYRT but strong agreement here.>What's a Fatberg?It's a huge lump of coagulated fat and tissues and such which can form in sewers and clog them, and that requires active intervention to remove. I think it's ahistorical for them to form before at least like the late 19th century though, or maybe even post-WWII era. They seem to be entirely a product of very dense cities where people pour way too much shit down the drains carelessly. That said, you could see how someone reading about them would think one would make a good inclusion in a sewer module. Putting them on a random encounter chart is demented though since their whole deal is how stationary they are.
>>97555585>pic Oh neat. Not good but neat. Like an arterial clog. Really not sure why that is an encounter instead of a keyed section of the map. Would make a good 'locked' door or trap/puzzle in a sewer.
>>97555645>Really not sure why that is an encounter instead of a keyed section of the map. Would make a good 'locked' door or trap/puzzle in a sewer.Yep. Putting it in the wandering monster chart is truly bizarre.
>Thus speaks the P/o/pe/srg/
>>97556001based autopope
>>97556001>slides too much into the narrativeMore like "virtually every single piece of advice the 2e DMG gives you is antithetical to the OSR"
>>97555684It would make for some excellent dungeon features. You could melt it, it could catch on fire and damage shit nearby. And if there are sewage gasses trapped they could even cause a minor explosion. Could even collect the grease to use for emergency fuel, or in a real dire situation, rations (blech).
Never knew that tucked away at the bottom corner of page 293 of RC were rules for Gnomes. Not anything spectacular, in a section you arent going to read (Converting PCs between ADnD and RC), and very easily missable but it is in there. Sharing this for those of you who might want to play Gnomes in a basic game with RC but without Top Ballista. Also the rules are way simpler than Top Ballista and usable in other OSRs if that is your thing.
>>97556120Sure. It would also, disgusting as it is, be much faster to dig (or even melt) through than a stone wall, plus it's sort of definitionally blocking a passage, so as a preplaced obstacle cutting off a potential route or secret chamber it would work great. But as a random encounter it's insane.
>>97556186The RC is unreasonably complete. It gets a lot of shit for it since many people dislike some systems (especially Weapon Mastery and the skills), but those are truly optional (unlike the horseshit in fake-edition "AD&D" that certain parties keep touting as optional) and simply a source of versatility if it's wanted.
>>97554237I like the classes in Tales from the Fallen Empire. There are some Zines and some derivative systems with good classes too. (Crawl!, Sanctum Secorum, Weird Frontiers, MCC, XCC)
>>97556186Myself, I would add SOME Illusionist spells for a substantial XP tax but that's nice anyway.
>>97556215I remember having fun with the BECM Master's Weapon Mastery (I brought an Elf to the second last attack rank IIRC, too bad we didn't have the Elf splat to get more spells and no RC, all done with the BECM).The deflection is very fun but can be particularly problematic tho, but there are catches and my DM nerfed it (unusable vs very big monsters like a Gargantua etc).I think the issue is the hit bonus which destroys the RNG combine with how multiple attacks work and Smash.On the other hand, the lack of the x3 x4 and x5 to backstab is kinda compensated by the dagger and sword increased damage to the already suffering BECM Thief.Companion also introduces intermediate armor (AC 6 and 4) and weirder weapons that could be stolen in isolation.
>>97556001...and this was deleted because...?
>>97556841And yet no amount of reporting off-topic 2e posts seems to get them removed.
>>97554558>>97555557The first place the aboleth popped up is I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwellers_of_the_Forbidden_City There only one in there but it is very close to the starting area.
>>97553823>It's a gimmick. Gavin decided he was going to have three features per six-mile hex (which is too much to begin with), and creating one shrine per Cleric spell was a way to spam a bunch of them.Probably, but I still think it's a nice addition.>I would be wary of a shrine allowing to spam Raise Dead without limitA reasonable concern but a shrine wouldn't allow that till a character can cast it daily already. 12 for clerics and 9 for the friar, till then they can cast a higher lvl spell off the shrine once ever. The shrine does exist in the world and (if using the official module for lvls 4-6) requires the clearing and resanctification of a ruined church which is a nice touch imo.> would probably limit their use using the ACKS II for custom powers, by which the frequency of use depends on the spell's level.Big fan of acks though in this case I'm more inclined to use Adnds system shock rolls.
>>97553288you gonna answer or? >clearly Two-Handed weaponsSo -1 what for two handed weapons, initiative, hit chance?
>>97554237off topic dogshit
>>97554554My point was made, you replied with an ad homimen, so you can just fuck off, retard nogames.
>>97556001based TRVKE
>>97557359Real recognize real.
What a weird monster manual entry.>A troll, upon being ignored, will pretend he has won a great victory, slapping his own back and shouting from the hilltops, often poorly altering his voice to pretend there is more than just himself as best he can.
>>97557486
>>97557511id be gay for that fish
>>97557331>So -1 what for two handed weapons, initiative, hit chance?If BX's often reported "issue" is two-handers losing initiative, and a -1 is proposed INSTEAD, what the FUCK do you think it is, retard?
I have been enjoying running old school essentials classic fantasy as my first game that wasnt 5e and pathfinder 2e
>>97558256well you said its from ACKS and its not, so what the fuck are (You) talking about?
>>97557511kek, eat shit and fuck off
>>97558262What did you run with it?
>>97558569I was recommended the black wyrm of brandonsford, so we are doing that. It has been a great time. I think I will generate wilderness as they leave and we just go by what the random tables produce for awhile.
Anybody else feel a sort of "tonal dissonance" when AD&D Magic-Users throw war darts?Is there any literary precedent for it? Appendix N, perhaps?
>>97559856Darts are an artifact of the outdoors mass battle war game roots anyway, they don't make a lick of sense in a dungeon, just accept that it's an artifice of the rules to give MUs something to do
>>97559856>Anybody else feel a sort of "tonal dissonance" when AD&D Magic-Users throw war darts?Yeah, I don't like it either. They can stick to their staves and daggers IMO.>Is there any literary precedent for it?Obviously I can't prove a negative, but I don't think so. Plumbata are a weird thing to include in the game in the first place, but it's also not like they're easier to use than javelins. I think Anon is correct that it's simply a kind of kludge to give them a Non-Magic Missile they can fire as often as they like (within the limits of ammunition).
>>97558641Nice, heard mixed reviews from a few different anons about that one but glad its going well. There's a lot of material and tables to fiddle with outside OSE but you've got the right of it by using what the book has for a bit to figure it out. GLHF.
>>97560096Do you have any advice on handling retainers?The bookkeeping aspect and keeping track of them looks to be kind of overwhelming.
>>97560154Depends on what part you find overwhelming. In my table I do this:>sheetRetainers use a simplified sheet, half sized. I tend to give the sheet to players, especially if retainer morale is good so they can micromanage inventory. I write share % and monthly gold in marker or pen on the sheet.>share %Assume x is a full 100% share, so that 1x is a full PC share, .5x is a 50% share, .25x is a 25% share, 11.6% is .116x, etc etc.Add up all the shares with their coefficients to be equal to the sum total of the treasure haul as an equation, solve for x, then multiply the decimal percent to x for each character to determine their share. Shrimple.>monthly payI do all living expenses and costs at the first of a new month. Retainers get paid their monthly fee.>managing XPDo it spreadsheet style for all character and keep it in your DM binder. Picrel
>>97560154I should have specified that I, >>97560556, am NTYART
OD&D: "Thieves can employ magic daggersand magic swords but none of the other magical weaponry.">Doesn't say anything about non-magical weapons. >Odd.>Well, let's look up the other editions.Holmes: "They can use all the weapons of a fighting man including magic swords and magic daggers."B/X: "A thief can use EVERYTHING."AD&D: "A thief can use the club, dagger, dart, sling, and swords (but not the 2h sword or bastard sword)."So is AD&D the odd one out? Did Gygax decide to nerf the Thief??
>>97560839>Did Gygax decide to nerf the Thief?Wouldn't be the only time, but no, more likely the AD&D-style weapons are more or less what was intended in OD&D as well and as usual they just didn't convey it well. Holmes Basics' rule clearly comes from Holmes' interpretation of the vague OD&D rules and Moldvay descends directly from Holmes.
>>97561156>more likely the AD&D-style weapons are more or less what was intended in OD&D as wellIt's possible. How do retroclones rule it?
>>97561493>How do retroclones rule it?Depends on the clone, innit? There are dozens. So in any specific case: what is it a clone of, what other stuff does it use as a basis for interpreting any vague parts, how faithful is it? Those would be the main deciding factors.For example, OSE is a clone of B/X which strives to be as accurate to the original as possible; it uses B/X rules on Thief weapons.LotFP is also a B/X clone, but much looser, and in particular, one based on veryspecific opinions on which rules are stupid and undesirable. The Expert (Thief analogue) can use all weapons, because every class can use all weapons.
>>97560839>>97561156>>97561493Arguably Gygax was trying to preserve the differences between Assassins and Thieves. Both in the PHB and explicitly in Book V Blackmoor it's the Assassin who can use all weapons.
>>97561542OD&D retroclones of course, since OD&D is the one with the ambiguous rule.
>>97561554Oh. Duh. I actually don't know because I prefer to just use LBB OD&D. I would guess that Swords & Wizardry uses something like the AD&D rule just because that's how they roll.>>97561548That's a good point. Basic doesn't have an Assassin.
> Spitting Cobra: A spitting cobra is a 3' long grayish-white snake which can squirt a stream of venom up to a distance of 6 feet. It aims for its victim's eyes. If the spit hits, the victim must save vs. Poison or be blinded. > This blindness can normally only be removed by a cure blindness spell from the D&D EXPERT rules> D&D EXPERT> Look inside> No such spellWhat did he mean by this?
>>97562241He meants he was gonna write it, but then the Expert set got handed to Zeb Cook instead. I wish we had gotten Moldvay's Expert/Companion/Master sets, they could have been cool.
>>97562249Zeb CookThe King Mierdas of TSREverything he touched turned into shit
>>97562701His expert set was fine, but he was basically trying to continue Moldvay's basic, so I guess he couldn't get too shitty with it. It may also have predated his turn towards the new school.
>>97560839Should I remind you BX Thieves have no x3/x4/x5 multipliers for backstab?
>>97562241I know people here hate it but BECMI's Expert has CB, page 6.
>>97560014I'm going to assume that by javelins you mean pila as plumbatae has been translated both as javelins and short javelins in addition to darts.>it's also not like they're easier to use than javelinsTell me that again after you've been trained by your historical re-enactment society.The fact is they are easier. The comparison is about the same as a lawn dart to a modern sports javelin. Accuracy is still an issue but the lighter weight is easier to handle and the fletching very much helps with stability and point first travel. They had double the range of pila as well. Pila required greater strength and better technique. Later Roman soldiers used to carry several plumbatae inside their shields. In game, the dart is a quarter the weight of the javelin. Each does less damage but for the same weight assuming all hit they do more damage, expected damage is 8 vs 3.5 for small/man sized, 6 vs 3.5 for large. Even if half miss a man sized target you still expect to do half a hp more damage. They weigh half as much as a dagger as well. It's a travesty that the rules give them less range than a javelin.
>>97560556This has been extremely helpful, and should clear up the bookkeeping aspect of it. Could you Post an example of the retainer half-sheet? Thank you very much for the info
>>97563572#>by javelins you mean pila as plumbatae has been translated both as javelins and short javelins in addition to darts.Pila are AD&D javelins.Plumbatae are AD&D darts.Repost because OCD
>>97528535Yo, OSR fags, question:The fuck is Braunstein and what that means in context of OSR?Your lingo is getting so fucking cryptic and celeb-tied, it's becoming progressively harder to grasp the hell you are even yapping about.
>>97565235Look in your underwear and you will find a brown stain
>>97565254>So many words>To explain nothing>Links to article>That also explains nothing>It's all the same circular "well, you KNOW what it is"If I knew, I wouldn't be asking
>Discussing Braunsteins is now haram according to Big Janny
>deletes the answers>leaves the weirdly salty questionsNot sure I understand the janny's banter here.
>>97565457Gotta kill the thread somehow and making us look like we're some sort of esoteric chud cult who won't answer questions is one way to do it.
>>97563572AYRT and I'm actually not sure that the AD&D javelin represents a pilum, which is a pretty atypical form of javelin compared to either the ancient or medieval norm. IIRC there's a clearer source that the dart was meant to represent a plumbata.Anyway, I thought they were about equally easy to throw as a spear so I don't know what to tell you. The range thing is interesting though, I don't remember trying shots for range at all but I've seen people (on other occasions) throwing javelins insanely far. I will say the dart range in the game is almost certainly a rules balance consideration, though.
>>97565235Braunsteins were essentially the "missing link" of gaming—a proto-RPG that evolved out of Napoleonic wargaming circles.The name comes from a fictional German town. In the original scenario, players weren't generals; they were townspeople, each with specific personal goals designed to influence the broader military campaign later on. It played out like a mix between a LARP and a game of Diplomacy embedded within a wargame.The real magic happened when players became obsessed with simply inhabiting their roles. In one famous instance, a duel was challenged, forcing the referee to improvise mechanics on the fly to handle it. These sessions marked the first time players controlled a single, specific character, planting the seeds for everything the RPG hobby would eventually become.
>>97565730>These sessions marked the first time players controlled a single, specific characterNot strictly true, there were types of Austrian war gaming where you played a commander and the referee gave you the messages from your superiors and your troops, and it was up to you to manage a battle via responses to them
>>97565502There's something actively weird happening if you look at the 2nd ed general as well. Lots of answering the questions and discussion about games getting deleted there too.
>>97565798"Spamming reports" does nothing, a mod or janny still has to decide to hit the button.Maybe they're testing a new AI janny, and it's really dumb?
Been trying to plan a session of B/X but I have to admit I'm a brainlet and don't understand how a dungeon with 20-30 (or more) monsters in it that can all have a chance at one shotting half the party is remotely explorable at level 1. How am I thinking about this wrong?
>>97565818How many rooms have you got those monsters in? Are you using the reaction rules and checking morale? Evasion and Pursuit rules?
>>97565730>In the original scenario, players weren't generals; they were townspeople, each with specific personal goals designed to influence the broader military campaign later on.Minor nitpicks here, but:• Saying the players weren't generals in Braunstein I is only technically true; the two first characters that the rest of the game grew out of were the French and Prussian colonels (pic related). I know that later on Wesely would run the scenario without the French commander as a player due to his comparative lack of interaction with the town, but if we're talking the original here, the concept (understandably) was really a novel way of turning a typical Napoleonic wargame scenario into something allowing 10+ players. That's not to say it wasn't innovative compared to just giving each player control of a handful of lead people or that it didn't influence later developments, it clearly did, but the core of Braunstein I is actually still a regimental-level military engagement.• There was no broader military campaign. Braunstein I was a self-contained wargame. I think you've confused Wesely's scenario with Arneson's famous ongoing Napoleonic Campaign (from which other important elements of proto-D&D were derived).
>>97565771Prussian, but yes. What you're describing is the standard "freies Kriegspiel" of the Prussian military academy.
>>97565827What does gameplay look like if players are out here just trying to avoid every encounter?
>He reports my post accusing him of spamming reports>>97565812Let's be fair, Jannies are lazy subhumans who are always going to coddle the whiners.Who needs artificial intelligence when you can pay for organic stupidity in hot pockets?
>>97565818>the dungeon being bigger, 30+ rooms, gives everyone room to breathe >the monsters aren't all moving around at the same time >random encounters aren't always combat>keyed encounters aren't always combat >the monsters are in contested ground with each other as well so are cautious about overextending This is an old document from here that gets into how dungeon design works. Its worth reading. https://gofile.io/d/9DwwxrProbably worth putting in the OP with a more permanent link from the archive at some point.
>>97566001>>97566153This thread hasn't even hit bump limit, you stupid shitposting faggot.
How do I bait my chud friends into trying to play B/X (I want to run B1)?
>>97567263One very clever method is to suggest it to them and ask what they think. If they agree, they'll believe it was their own idea!
>>97565934>picAdaptations were always shit, uhu?
>>97565730>Gets called out on explaining nothing>Removes the post>Reposts the same useless stuffSo it's a nothingburger gaming style about the Platonic idea of gaming, while using tools not cut for it.Fuck, and people joked about hipsters being pretentious
>>97567263If you need to bait people into trying your game, your game is beyond shit. Doesn't matter what game that is.
So about nine years back for 5e I made the Magician, a rogue archetype for 5e. The idea being you are *not* a spellcaster, you just do things through sleight of hand and smoke and mirrors that *look like* spells to the untrained eye.Anyone think that this could be converted to a Thief kit?Here’s a link to the original post from 2017:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/52920200/#52922816
>>97568245>Thief kitWrong thread. You want >>97552533
>>97568101The thing is I don't know if it is shit and neither do they. I at least read the rules and they seem kinda fun, but they just refuse to play because it is old and they already know 5e rules.
>>97568275>Guys, guys, let's try out this new game!>Suggests different edition of DnD than the one playerNIgga, you dense or what?
>>97568268I’ve been repeatedly told that 2e belongs here and that the /2eg/ is a troll thread.
>>97568335You have been rused, anon. See the OP:>>97528535>Later editions (2e and newer) should be discussed elsewhere.
>>97568335That's basically the case, but this thread isn't much better anymore.
>>97568335It's this: >>97568353One crazy sperg is trying to force the game here in spite of the fact that every actual poster in the thread agrees it doesn't belong here.
>>97568353>>97568399>>97568421I’m truth. I knew this, but needed your help to prove a point. Thank you all the same; wish me luck in clearing /2eg/ of its troll problem.
>>97568436Good luck anon. I'm sorry Fishfag has inflicted himself upon you.
>>97568436Good luck to you, friend. May your plight reach the ears of the mods.
>Mod nukes /2eg/ after that last 'Thanks for helping me prove my point'F.
>>97568481 >>97568443 >>97568447I’mma recreate it as soon as I get home from work. I am genuinely trying to create a place for 2e discussion. I am not trolling. If you people genuinely don’t want 2e discussed here, I’ve no desire to force it. If you’re just a bunch of trolls, I have no obligation to clear you out.Sorry for the inconvenience either way.
>>97568245Why wouldn't a thief just learns spells?The idea of a magician having value in a world with real magic is kind of surreal. There's not much of a show if everyone just goes "He used magic".
>>97568481The deletions in both threads have been quite strange t b h.
>>97568508We for one thing it means antimagic doesn’t do crap and you’re not worried about nishruu.
>>97568500>I’mma recreate it as soon as I get home from work. I am genuinely trying to create a place for 2e discussion.That's good. We're on your side here, remember that.>Sorry for the inconvenience either way.You're not the one causing the inconvenience and you know it, Anon.
>>97568500>Sorry for the inconvenience either way.Not at all. I hope you have a really nice general going forward and plenty of productive conversation. With 2e came some of the most iconic settings in D&D.It's just not an OSR game and doesn't belong here the same way that you or I wouldn't insist on talking about World of Darkness in a Call of Cthulhu general.Good luck, I really mean it.
>>97568500>I am genuinely trying to create a place for 2e discussion. I'd also like a thread where we can discuss 2e I'm not asking to do it here, and I will be joining if you create another thread.We need to be more disciplined in ignoring troll posts, though. Like, every time you read some meta bait bullshit trying to instigate a war of some kind, whether it's about osrg or acks or what have you, let's make it a point to stay on topic and post about games instead. Otherwise the whole thread will devolve into shitflinging.>I am not trolling.Anon, nobody thinks you're trolling. There's literally only ONE person accusing you of that, don't doubt yourself and fall for it.
>>97568421Every poster is tired of explaining to you why it belongs here.Mostly because you never talk to them, you always talk to your imaginary fishfag instead.Do you want me to explain why it's OSR to you?
>>97568508Oh, also a Magician Thief kit - or, say, a Magician class made using the B/X Options: Class Builder - might be fun in a low/no magic game.
>>97568515It's not about potential practicality, it's about how such a practice would develop.Real world magician's put on a show to amaze people and make them wonder how they made magic seem real. In a world where magic is just real, there's not much wonder to be had for pulling hankerchiefs out of your sleeve.>>97568540Just discuss OSR games you like.>>97568542That actually makes sense. I forgot that non-magic worlds were also an option. Still, a magician thief kit could work in a high magic world, I just don't know how something like that would develop naturally.
>>97568565Please, stop trying to speak for me or anyone else.Talk about games you like.
osrg friends, I'm a 2efag who only rarely posts here, and when I do it's never about 2e. So I come in peace.Like another Anon has said, 2eg is not an attempt to troll osrg, the opposite actually. We just want a space to discuss 2e in peace.I suspect some of you have been provoking the piscine faggot lately because while he's busy on 2eg he doesn't troll here. It makes sense short term, but it's a myopic tactic, very bad long term, because some of the (possibly new) Jannies might genuinely be unable to tell the difference at this point.Additionally, for what it's worth, please know that there's at least a few of us who respect your preference not to have 2e discussed here, and we would like it if you returned the favour by helping keep our own general tidy and drama-free.Let the schizo shout into the void as much as reasonably possible, although I understand it's hard to resist when he starts to make shit up.
>>97568600You dumbass. You can't fool people that there's only one person that knows you're full of shit when they see other people call you out on it.All your bullshit grandstanding does is help everyone who disagrees with you see the kind of other lies you perform.
>>97568600>it's a myopic tacticYou might have a point there. Deal, as far as I'm concerned.
>>97568616>when that-faggot isn't around this is a really nice bunch of people and a fairly quiet thread.Anon, I've been on /tg/ for many years, and I lurk /osrg/ regularly because some of the topics here genuinely interest me. I'm one of the guys who plays a hybrid campaign, a bit of sandbox and a bit of story-driven, quest-driven play, and some of the discussions here have even helped me improve my sandbox chops.I have witnessed the rise of you-know-who, so I understand the situation pretty well. Since the situation is delicate, and it's going to still be for the foreseeable future, I think we should all be a bit more mindful of what we post. Bringing up that discussion about the Hickman Manifesto was not very skilful in this regard. But it's all good as far as I'm concerned. Be well.
New thread (proper OP):>>97568691>>97568691>>97568691
