A place for discussion of pre-WotC D&D, OSR retroclones, and OSR-adjacent games.>Is this a general?No, just a place to discuss OSR and related content>Isn't there an OSR thread already?No, current regulars of /osrg/ have made it clear they only want to see a specific subset of OSR games in the thread.This means the name /osrg/ is somewhat misleading but that's their problemPlease report and ignore any trolling.Thread question>How lethal are your games? How many character deaths happen on average?
>>98031631Welcome to the latest definitely not-a-general hijack thread spammed by the board's greatest schizo, Fishfag.Reminder that the actual /osrg/ can currently be found here:>>98004530>>98004530>>98004530This is just a containment thread for the insane filled with samefagging, and for celebrating the eternal triumph of the BROSR. I suggest reporting it for spamming / flooding at your leisure.
I've never had any of my characters die. I've seen quite a few of my friends die, mostly NPCs, but a few PCs. None of them ever died from anything other than instant death. When it comes to HP management and just being careful and cautious, the people I play with tend to be pretty smart, so it's really only those random "AH HA FUCK YOU" events that really have a chance of killing one of us.On a scale of No-One-Can-Die to Everyone-is-Certain-to-Die, I think we play at about a 4. It's pretty soft.
>>98031631>How lethal are your games? How many character deaths happen on average?Depends on the module.I've had TPKS in a bunch. Ravenloft, Temple Tower Tomb, Tomb of Horrors and Return to the Tomb of Horrors, all pretty deadly.I think (but probably wrong) an average of one character death per five sessions, one tpk per twenty sessions.
>>98031822>I've never had any of my characters die.Then you haven't really lived.*rides off on his horse*
>>98031631Lethal in theory, not lethal in practice. We're cowards.
>>98031840A TPK in Ravenloft sounds like some really shitty luck or some really stupid players.
>On averageMy first campaign had 3 deaths, so far this one has only had 1. First was 50+ sessions, this one is up to 25. But my party are quite smart and on top of things. The 3 deaths in the first game all happened at the same time due to some very questionable choices. They learned a lot since then.
>>98031851Hey, get back here with my horse you son of a bitch!
>>98031631Yet another niggular spam thread for no purpose but to whine about /osrg/ and people knowing the definition of OSR. Will this be the one where the jannies act or will it just get flooded again? Tune in to find out!
>somebody said something about 2e once seven years ago, so it's OSRNot how it works, retard
>>98031112>Is C&C good?No, it's dogshit.Still better than "AD&D" 2e, though.
>>98029535When that page says "it has been credited" as that, the source is unironically one unknown "RPG historian" and his general views of roleplaying history as a whole, which nobody's ever heard of outside of Wikipedia using it as a source. Add it to the list of reasons its not a reliable source. That this """historian""" is ignorant of the OSR is basically a given.And you claim we have to take that moron as an authority? lmao kill yourself
>>98028973>sonYou literally admitted that you came here from RPGnet and plebbit in february. Go back there, those places are more up your speed.
>>98029557>proscriptivismlmao you're really stupid
>>98032020>I don't existlol you only reinforce your nickname when you try to do that
>>98032032Learn to sage, buddy. Crashing this thread is fine, bumping it isn't.
>>98028866>You're a walking talking STD, a pygmy subhuman, a digital disease that I wish, only for the health of this board, could be wiped out with a herbicide and made to drown to death in your own shit. Your gorilla like screeching over a superior game will never end though so we've all got to put up with your endless barrage of pathetic autism and front of being totally unaffected and totally not caring about how much more raped you get with every thread you post in, because all you want is to kill the discussion of games.>I sincerely hope you catch cancer and then burn to death after suffering through it for a year. That's how much I don't give a fuck about you and your authoritarian bullshit.LOL he's ripping you a new one and it's a sentiment we all share. Why are you sharing an image of your getting raped like it's some kind of prize?Also>hyporcriteYou really need to stop spelling like a literal retard if you want to make yourself less identifiable.
>>98031631>TQ>make up a story about character death, that'll make "us" look very OSR, which is totally lethal.>>98031822>>98031822>>98031922>>98031922>ChatLGBT, write a 300-word reply to the TQ in the style of a 4chan post
>Guy is systematically going through the previous thread and responding to Fishfag's post one at a time. Welcome home from work lol, spending your leisure time wisely I see
>>98032038He'll show up and bump it anyway, not really worth the effort.Also the board is starting to hate him for starting so many threads. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
>>98031840>Return to the Tomb of HorrorsIs this any good? What does it have over the OG tomb?
>>98032080I accept your concessions
>>98032038I'm not your buddy, broI'm your broKeep lifting Jesus is king
>>98031822>I play with tend to be pretty smart, so it's really only those random "AH HA FUCK YOU" events that really have a chance of killing one of us.If it's not sometbing like ToH i tend to very much heavily telegraph danger. If they want to fight wights, they will be locked up in a coffin surrounded by bones, traps have clear tells etc. The more OSR approach of "that will instakill you but only if you choose to engage with it wrong, as a consequence" really appeals to me. Hidden Trial and error danger has a time and place though.
>>98031671>Welcome to the latest definitely not-a-general hijack thread spammed by the board's greatest schizo, Fishfag.It's a shame we lost count.
>>98032126>I totally play>inane comment devoid of content follows Sure, buddy
>>98031999It's pre-2000 RPGs for several reasons.The first is that while pre-2000 D&D is generally compatible between all the editions, 3rd edition presented a fairly big change. That means that material within the OSR can be changed between systems fairly easily, but it's the 3rd edition divide that presents a significant paradigm shift and makes it incompatible with OSR material.The second is that the OSR began as a reaction to WotC dropping all support for pre-WotC editions. The "revival" was people hoping to keep pre-WotC editions from disappearing, since many of them had long since been out of print, and there were no signs WotC had any plans to reprint them and create competition for their 3rd edition. These were fears that were expressed and still remain in the archives of several forums.The third is that 2e has been part of the OSR community since it began, and with the overwhelming majority not just including it, we even saw Dragonsfoot go from a 1e-focused website to a OD&D+B/X+1e+2e website, alongside many other related clones and inspired games. Outside of Drragonsfoot, 2e was always a part of OSR discussions on Enworld as well as Wizard's own forums, and even on 4chan in the original /osrg/.As for trying to say 2e is where the OSR should define the split and 2e should be excluded, 2e came out in 1989, and there was no mention of an revival until 2002. That's more than a decade of relative silence, and with no one claiming that 1e was "old school" in the face of 2e. Most people would assume OD&D if anyone said "old school" in 2e's heyday. The idea that anyone defines "Old School" as "pre-2e" is effectively non-existent, which makes defining "Old School Revival/Renaisance/Resurrection/Robocop" as "pre-2e" fairly ridiculous.The differences between 1e and 2e are also not that dramatic (less than the differences between 1e and B/X, for instance).
>>98031631im filling all my dungeons with traps that instakill the whole party if they are touched with 10' poles
>>98032782>party buys 11' foot poles instead
>>98031631My games tend not to be very lethal. There are injuries and danger, lots of setbacks and issues to overcome but I haven't had a player character die in years
>>98032841when was the last death? Got any fun story behind it?
>>98032126>The more OSR approach of "that will instakill you but only if you choose to engage with it wrong, as a consequence"I had one DM really take this too far, and it resulted in everyone going inch-by-inch, carefully examining everything from a distance, spending forty minutes in every room and turning the game into a procedural investigation/archeological excavation. It sucked. The DM was really keen on making sure we all understood the "right way" to explore a dungeon, but even just a door would take five minutes as the party went through a list of procedures before anyone tried opening it.
>They're all compatible anywayAlright, stress test time.If they're all perfectly compatible then a character who acts a certain way in one can expect similar results to the same character acting the same way in another.You have three characters:>Pardue, the Holyman, ignores the quests the DM has prepared and instead goes off and rampages through a dungeon, killing countless Gorvilles in the process. He returns without a penny to his name, but by god did he remove a lot of evil from the world>Blackleaf, the Rogue, comes in after him and strips the copper wire out the walls, steals the doorknobs and makes a profit selling everything from goblin leather to gold bars back in town, she doesn't fight anything because last time she did her player fucking roped over it>Fi'hees'fa'hag, the Dagonite Cultist, lampreys himself to the DMs lap and starts gulping cum like a leech, demanding delicious quests and doing everything the DM wants without either killing monsters or earning gold, basically the worlds faggiest slice of life coffee barista orc shit.The above continues for 1 months worth of sessions. All combat vs All gold vs All quests.What level difference do you expect between these 3 characters come the end of the month, based on the system used?
>>98032749>Fishfag repeating the same schizo rant for the millionth time
>>98032860Never, because he doesn't really play.
>>98032904I'll take things that totally happened for 500, Alex
>>98032860Not an OSR game, but I was running Deadlands about 4 years ago.Someone blew up a Chinese frigate with too much TNT( the line "5 boxes ort to do it" is often repeated in that group). They didn't take how long it would take to get back to the row boat,the boiler, the powder room, the amount of TNT that is or exploding dice into account.It was glorious and stupid.
>>98033045>It was glorious and stupid.Definitely sounds the part.I'm looking to run pic related this friday if all goes well, so i'm excited to give it a try. only part i'm struggling with prepwise is the Chess room, i want to scrap it entirely but don't know what to put in it's place.
>>98031631My game isn't that lethal anymore, but it used to have [level of lethality]! One time, a player [foolish action] which caused multiple PC deaths! This is very authentic.
>>98033045>with too much TNTNo such thing.
>>98033045Not an OSR game, but I was playing [Settler of Catan] about 4 years ago. Someone [built the longest road] and won.
>>98033159Are you looking for a puzzle trade or something that takes skill to overcome >>98033215It does when you are in the blast zone. But that player has the same thought process and even getting one of his characters blown up hasn't stopped his love of TNT
>>98033318Not an OSR game, but I was playing AD&D 2e about 4 years ago. The rulebook says that the DM gives players XP for learning the rules of the game. I already knew the rules, so the DM gave me one million XP, and my character retired.That same evening we stopped playing AD&D 2e and switched to the real AD&D, whose rules for gaining XP are not retarded.
>>98033318Ha! That'll show the trolls who say we are nogames here!t. not fishfag
>>98033215>>with too much [thing in game]>No such thing.Wow, great template for generate authentic discussions that are not totally faked by someone who isn't fishfag.
>>98033391>>with too much [fireballs]>No such thing.thanks for the organic discussion
>>98033360Now THAT's what I call organic!
>>98033318>>too much roads in Catan>no such thingThanks for the insightful discussiont. not fishfag
>>98033353Either is good, i want something that can be good either as an entrance/start to the dungeon or a room the players eventually go to. They can start the dungeon either in that room or go through the basement/sewer route.
>>98033353>character hurt himself with [thing] but that hasn't stopped him from using [thing]Wow, such an original template that brings actual games that people actually play really to life organically and insightfully. Thanks for sharing.t. not fishfag
>>98033433>Either is goodlmao, look at this authentic and not at all deliberately vague conversation
>>98033433>A dungeon with two entrancesWow, such a creative idea, something never seen before in a dungeon!This thread is really the meeting place for multiple different anons who are not talking to themselves and none of which is fishfag, who doesn't exist.
>>98033045>>98033215>>98033353
>>98033433Humm I don't think a guardian is a bad idea. You have a cub on the other end there. What level are you working with here?
>>98033453This made me a better DM.
>>98031631I'm in a B/X game with some people in their twenties, and they won't stop complaining about the combat. To be fair, the DM isn't really doing a good job with it and half the time even I'm confused as to what's going on, but they just can't understand why initiative is the way it is and are really struggling with it. The least experienced players are also playing MUs, and they have no idea what they're doing (in combat).They handle the rest of the game fine, but it's the combat that makes them act like they have Alzheimer's every time. The whole campaign is basically sitting right on the edge of everyone just playing 5e instead, and it's because the only part the group likes about B/X combat is that it doesn't take that long (when everyone remembers how it works).
>>98033482It could either have a guardian or not a guardian! It's possible it could be high level, or low!
>>98033490It sounds like it might be both a bad for and the GM just not being good at running the system.What BX game are you using?
>>98033045You can never have enough explosives.
>>98033541>What BX game are you usingThere's only one game called B/X, fishfag, you fucking retard. What an authentic thread by people who actually play games.>>98033490On the off chance that you're a lost Anon and not fishfag samefagging, you're posting in a thread made by a nogames troll for samefagging, that's only used by him to talk to himself to try and make it look like there's real activity here and by everybody else to make fun of him.The real OSR thread is here:>>98004530>>98004530>>98004530
>>98033575But you can use too many at once
>>98033583Fuck off troll, there are a ton of BX based OSR games out there. It's the most popular type of OSR game
>>98033575>>98033592Wow, yeah, very OSR posts by multiple anons who totally play OSR.
>>98033482Level 1. this is meant to be an ultra "Tropey" dungeon (Think like a who's who of tropes, mimics trolls a dragon puzzles etc etc yada yada)I want i to lean into that, BUT not repeat any of the tropes already present.
>>98033601>there are a ton of BX based OSR gamesAnd none of those are B/X. Hence why they're called "B/X based" and not B/X, idiot.
>>98033604>Level 1.Nogames confirmed.
>>98033597>If you used your brain (if you have one) and not your ass when posting you would understand, retard.Can you try to talk like a normal person once in your lifetime, instead of like a four year old who's just learnt that swear words exist?
>>98033541The DM sent us Moldvay PDFs, and I've never encountered this kind of struggle with it before. I don't want to blame the DM, and I also don't want to blame the players, but I've seen teenagers play it without any problems.I almost want to blame society. Like, in the last year or so. Even at work everyone seems much more lethargic and it takes much longer for anyone to learn anything, and now these players are just unable to get over a pretty small hump.
>>98033604What about a centipede? Those are creepy and classic?
>>98033630It could be just d&d burnout. Maybe try a non d&d based system?
>>98033709>centipedeMake it a Carrion crawler and that's a great idea, but no clue how to incorporate it well. The context of the room is it's beneath an inn with a well kinda like the Yawning portal, and it would be guarding one of the 4 macguffin gems required to open the room with the deck of many things.
>>98031631>TQCurrent campaign I had a string of bad luck. I had 4 PCs die in 4 sessions. It wasn’t even the DM being malicious, he felt awful it happened 4 times lmao. Last death I was a thief trying to get a sneak attack with my crossbow on a ghast, cleric wasn’t thinking and just walked into the room alerting it. DM rolled to see who it would go for, it went for me, it crit, instantly killed me then ran off with my body. Fun times
>>98033740It's pretty easy for someone to have placed it there and feed it occasionally. Makes a good guard
>>98032922>Dodges this post like his father dodged child supportGuess it's time to add another screencap to the folder.
>>98033630B/X is about as basic as it gets before you get into rules-lite or micro-systems.I can understand people not liking it, but it's hard to find anything simpler.Them wanting to play 5e instead is like a Chinese person having difficulty memorizing the latin alphabet. There might just not be a fix for that.
>>98034031NTA, but it could be the simplicity itself that is the issue. I myself struggle if a system is too simple
>>98034059Simplistic=/=Simple. I really enjoy rule-lite systems, but most of them are terrible. They hacked away too much, and the GM has to either put the stuff back in himself or the game is just so fucked they can't even do that.I also struggle playing simplistic systems, and I think just about everyone does. But a good simple system has all the right rules in all the right places, and I think B/X can't be blamed here. It's probably just a weird "culture" shift.
>>98034118I personally find BX a bit too light, but agree many of the newer light games are worthless to me. They feel incomplete.Another issue could be layout as they are not as clearly laid out as modern books and as you said culture has shifted. How we read and process data has shifted too.I honestly would recommend them looking at OSE and seeing if that made it work better for them.
>>98033740>The context of the room is it's beneath an inn with a well kinda like the Yawning portal, and it would be guarding one of the 4 macguffin gems required to open the room with the deck of many things.>level 1 >meme 1pd
>>98034248>I honestly recommend buying the reprinted reference document over the rulebook even 10 yearolds figured out Todd tier advice here.
>>98032922>If they're all perfectly compatible then a character who acts a certain way in one can expect similar results to the same character acting the same way in another.define similar1e and B/X are less compatible than 1e and 2eand you'll have to go through much more troubles to make the B/X game experience closer to 1e than 2e experience to 1e (considering the exact same adventure is being played in all 3 cases)
>>98034385>1e and B/X are less compatible than 1e and 2eLove how you keep repeating the same retarded bullshit over and over again, obsessively, as if it were some kind of wisdom.
>>98033490I once had to speed up mechanics to fit an adventure into a introductory gameone things I did was I used Prof. DM's method for initiative>no initiative rolls>if players see monsters they just go first starting clockwise, then it's monsters>if monsters have a surprise they start firstI often use it ever since
>>98034248OSE is 85% of what I think is the ideal version of B/X. It's so much easier to parse, but there's a few places where I feel it could have just gone a step further. I don't really like their advanced expansion at all though.
I described what my ideal campaign would be to a friend, and he recommended I look at the Bloodstone campaign, particularly the last book, Throne of Bloodstone.I'm mad.I wanted an adventure featuring Orcus (or his cult), and it's certainly that, but it's also the weirdest adventure I've ever read through and I don't think it's even remotely usable. It includes in the intro a statement about how AD&D is very carefully balanced and that the rules have to be followed strictly, but this is also the adventure that introduces character levels that go up to 100 and throws challenges that are insane even by that metric.I probably got way too ahead of myself, but even all the Orcus-centric stuff is pretty much useless to me. It's often "silly" in a bad way, like parts of it were written by a little kid. Orcus is less a horrifying demonic prince of undeath and more a weird fat nerd who has a bridge that pulls pranks on visitors and a library that only contains books about himself.It's a shame, because it could have been an excellent resource, also it also has plenty of info about the other Demon Princes including maps of their realms, but they're so poorly thought out that I kind of would prefer if the whole book was ignored and rejected as being "canon."
>>98034630Try Dream House of the Nether Prince. Much better Orcus-centered high level dungeon.
>>98034651If you're setting me up to be burned again I'm gonna summon the real Orcus.
>>98034385The people who act like this isn't the case never tried to convert BX into Ad&d>>98034524I don't think the advanced stuff went far enough. It's kinda half hearted. But otherwise OSR is decent. I only use the advanced stuff as I hate race as class with a passion
>>98034406if you know nothing about games you are talking about can sftu you instead you stupid retard?troubles one has to go through to make B/X experience closer to 1e>rework classes and races to have race and class>add at least 4 classes and 3 races>break the rules by allowing XP from sold magic weapons or your characters are waaaaay behind 1e characters in progression>start characters at 2001 XP or they are waaaay weaker compared to 1e lvl 1 charactersthe same for 2e>just use an optional XP for gold rule that is already listed in the rulebook
>>98034736>The people who act like this isn't the case never tried to convert BX into Ad&dfactt. someone who had to do it
>>98034789When I first started playing I started with 2e. I didn't at the time know d&d want Ad&d so I snagged a few cheap Mystara items. I was so confused why things were wrong lol.1e to 2e, no modifications needed, BC to AD&D, fuck.
>>98034762>muh charbuild optionsYou keep missing the entire point of the game, fishfag.
>>98034824>it's a vibe actuallylol stfu you stupid retard
>>98032008Hot take here. 2e is better than C&C simply because it’s mechanically closer to 1e. Less house ruling to fix its issues. Things that are annoying are easier to ignore because a lot of it is GM facing. C&C on the other hand is totally borked because SIEGE (tm) sucks ass and they refuse to fix it
>>98034824The fix is literally just ignore the splat books
I recently stumbled on a link to Rancourt's blogpost on Knave, and I've written a several pages long essay in which I'm analyzing his [faulty] arguments I'm going to share in a few next posts
>>98034854>2e is better than C&CWrong. Nothing is worse than 2e.
>>98034927IF YOU PUT SOME NUMBERS IN YOUR POST 75% OF PEOPLE WILL TRUST THOSE NUMBERSOR WHY ONLY ACTUALLY PLAYING A GAME SHOULD COUNT AS A REVIEWA collection of thoughts on Rancourt's post regarding Knave 2e.I've only speed through the "Analysis", and I've just skimped through Knave book, and yet I spotted so many errors in Rancourt's post that I just had to say something.To my sruprise these errors were not pointed out by any of the commentators, or maybe they were but got deleted who knows.Right from the bat Rancourt tries appealing to his expertise in 3 different professional fields as if to shield his text from possible critique or as a sort of posturing in front of his readers.In reality only one is [merely somewhat] relevant while 2 out of 3 mentioned occupations are totally irrelevant! Bad taste, Rancourt, bad taste my man.This is simply a comment on style though, so let's get to the substance.
>>98034876>Missing the point completelyNothing to do with splatbooks, idiot. It's about how the game plays, and the character options available are very low on the list of important mechanics in a game.
>>98034934PART IOne of the starting on-point sections attempts comparing B/X and Knave on a character to character basis. IMO these is quite pointless as compatible systems are not meant to provide an identical experience. Hell playing the same module in D&D differs drastically between AD&D 1e and B/X. However let's accept this as a reference point. There are a couple of conclusions this starting section comes to, both wrong by the fault in methodology on several occasions as I'm going to demonstrate.1) Knave combat is a drag compared to B/XThe author comes to this conclusion by comparing damage outputs in Knave vs B/X fighter (16 STR which actually would account for a small fraction of fighters), and spells.Combat procedures are not compared at all (Knave is much faster), the additional combat options in Knave are also ignored.It needs to be noted that character by character comparison isn't necessary indicative of how fast combat will go because what matters is actually party vs. party comparison. And if in D&D fighter will be the most reliable source of bonking the enemy, this isn't the case in Knave, a _classless_ system. Each PC can be fighting focused while also doing something else.Not only that but more annoyingly character by character comparison is done with a glaring error, ignoring the to-hit chance for overall mean dmg output, and with an arbitrary whopping 16 STR for the B/X fighter.Funnily enough the former was the exact same mistake some osrg-anon with a hate boner for BFRPG made, the one who also fails at understanding mean value (sum of chance * value)
>>98034934>KnaveNot OSR, retard.But at least it's not as bad as "AD&D" 2e.
>>98034944cont.A correct comparison of a Knave and B/X character by character in fighting would go somethign like this and accounts for to-hit, damage, and chance of rolling STR of a 0, +1, +2 or +3 bonus.A B/X F3 avg dmg. output vs AC 5 enemy accounted for STR distribution (considering a player never chooses to be a fighter if STR < 9) = 1.6That corresponds to a Knave character w/o damage bonuses and to hit AC 15 = 1.6 / 3.5 =~ 45%. So rolling 11 to hit AC 15, i.e. STR of 4.This is also an average lvl 3 Knave character with any regard for fighting that has put [only] 1 point in STR/WIS at chargen and then 1 out of 3 on each level up as well.Now this is either a very surprising coincidence!OR Ben Milton has actually done better math than Rancourt.will later post Parts 2 and 3
>>98034944>comparing B/X and KnaveGo back to plebbit.
>>98034951>DPR calculations>chargenlmao kill yourself
>>98034789>>98034736You know Rules Cyclopedia has a whole chapter on converting back and forth between the 2 right?
>>98034945regardless if it's OSR or not this thread is for the entire OSR-sphere including OSR-adjacent games.you are free to get involved in a constructive discussion, perhaps I myself made some errors you can point outotherwise you can proceed back to your hugbox
>>98034963Nobody cares.
>>98034966>proceed back to your hugboxRich, coming from a literal plebbitor.
>>98034963you do realize you are proving the point anons you are replying to are making?
>>980349631: You had to have known the RC existed back in the day2: Do you know how fucking hard it was to actually find the RC? I hit every store in a 100 miles back in the day (not joking, the biggest city near me is like 107 miles away) and could not find a fucking copy. Same with dragon kings, good gods was that bitch impossible to find.
>>98034651>Dream House of the Nether PrinceThis is actually looking pretty fucking good, especially after Bloodstone.
>>98034986either way having an entire chapter dedicated to conversions proves the systems indeed have compatibility issues that have to be resolved
>>98035029True, they are simply not the same system at all. 1e/2e are, but BX simply isn't
continued from >>980349442) The second conclusion is that thieves are impossible to level up properly.>Thieves have it even worse; they need STR to stab people, DEX to sneak, CON like everyone else, INT to pick locks, and WIS to perceive (?), use ranged weapons, and resist spells.The author is again demonstrating troubles grasping Knave is a _classless_ system, and this is of particular annoyance to me.Thieves in Knave don't "have it worse" because there are NO THIEVES [in D&D sense] in Knave, Rancourt!Sure one character can focus on DEX among other things, but it doesn't mean that specific one character has to do everything a D&D thief would!The spellcaster with a high INT can deal with the locks, the scout type character with high WIS will take on perception checks and so on.
>>98035042>1e/2e are the same systemwrong
>>98035089lmao stop this bullshit
>>98035092 Then why was there no conversion guide for them? There was for BX, but there was no need for 1e
>>98034934>IF YOU PUT SOME NUMBERS IN YOUR POST 75% OF PEOPLE WILL TRUST THOSE NUMBERS>puts their own made up numbers >doesn't show work lol okay
I have to say, despite the flared tempers, this conversion discussion is actually pretty insightful.
>>98035117some calculations are omitted to avoid clutterdo you have a specific number you wanted to know how I got?
>>98035168All of them. Your writing is barely comprehensible garble of personal opinion, rant and complaints. You're better off doing a screenshot with a margin to the side you can highlight the sections your trying to discuss.
continued from >>98035089PART IIIn this part I’ll continue with unrelated errors and faults I've noticed in the blogpost when skimming through it.On slot encumbrance>I think what ends up happening is that the players ... buy hirelings to carry stuff around for them, more-or-less alleviating slot scarcity for adventuring supplies, and leaving the actual adventurers to carry combat equipment, mostly.hirelings "avoid danger at all costs" and obviously are not going to enter dungeons or other dangerous places. Oh and yes, moral is obviously included for cases such as a surprise ambush or whatever. There really isn’t any ambiguity here. And also, foreshadowing a point I’m going to make next, the reason hirelings cost so much is exactly so they can’t be used to throw in large numbers at any encumbrance issues the players might face.On the EconomyQRD is that Rancourt is complaining that resources are more expensive than in B/X.I don't get the tone, if anything it should be reversed! With the amount of gold PCs are carrying out of dungeons, 2000 gp just to make it to first levelup for fighters, the prices in B/X don't really mean anything, so it's obviously an improvement in Knave.Also note this simple arithmetic error>Funnily enough, a party of 6 fresh PCs start with more net wealth than the Dragon’s hoard in Brandonford!3d6*10 * 6 < 200 * 6 = 1.2 K is 10 times less than 12 K, Rancourt!How can anyone come to such a surprising conclusion and _not_ double-check yourself is beyond me.Probably a feature of people who start their "analysis" with an appeal to their expertise in irrelevant fields lol.
>>98035133iirc there were bits of the MM that had discrepancies between it and AD&D due to release schedule and GG not having that sorted out.
>>98035103Just because there's no conversion guide doesn't mean they're the same system, mongoloid.
>>98035190>All of them.I doubt that because some simple calculations are actually includedif you have a genuine interest you can quote a line or two to make it clear for me what your question is about and I'll see my notes>Your writing is barely comprehensible garble of personal opinion, rant and complaints>You're better off doingwell that makes me at least on par with Rancourt doesn't it :^)look I've put to much effort into venting on 4chink about being annoyed by some fart-sniffing second-grade "mathematician" confidently presenting the most half-assed piece of ANALysis I've seen in quite a whileunless you change your tone to a more neutral one this isn't going anywhere
continued from >>98035213On XP>So a Knave thief needs to find a little more than twice as much treasure as a BX thief to level up. Ouch!There are no thieves [in D&D sense] in Knave because it is a _classless_ system, when will you get it already?It's really annoying someone claims to do "analysis" and yet insists on misunderstanding such a fundamental feature of a system.Indeed “Ouch”!On reaction rolls>I also found that it lead to incongruent results, like crab spiders performing minors favors.This is not going to be Knave specific but it's kinda surprising for someone in the hobby for so long to misinterpret reaction rolls that are only rolled if monster's reaction is non-obvious! Yes, Knave rulebook mentions it as well.On magical remedies>If someone contracts a disease (like from a giant rat), how do they cure it? If someone gets cursed, how is the curse lifted?All mentioned poison/elemental resistance/disease/curse/etc spells are well to be removed from the spell list since they are too situational to be practical in Knave’s magic system.Instead Knave offers alchemy to brew potions. Surprised it was missed by the author of the blog, there is an entire section dedicated to potion-brewing.
>>98035263You are not arguing in good faith. 1e material can be used with 2e with zero conversion needed.vand 2e material can be used with 1e with zero conversion needed.The same is simply not True of BX
continued from >>98035336PART IIIOn the Hazard dieOH BOY! Here Rancourt is just speculating beyond competence. Let's start with wilderness travel simulation.QRD Rancourt simulated A LOT of dicerolls to do a 9 hex crawl. Most of those came from rolling for rations going bad.It looks awful, almost unplayable... until someone who has ACTUAL EXPERIENCE PLAYING GAMES with say things like dice pools will come along to point out thata) every player can have the dice = to their rations ready in advance, so that's in practice as fast as a single rollb) all players are rolling for their rations in parallelso it's really not as cumbersome as rolling all those dice one by one in a sequence and at an actual table this would bea non-issue.Now to the Delving Hazard die> players need to carry extra [torches] to hedge against bad luckyou actually can just carry a candle/lantern as a backup. Also finally some game that doesn't make torches obsolete with availability of a lantern, and to be fair I'm pretty sure Rancourt actually praise that somewhere in the text.>this feels like another element of randomness they can’t controlYes, and this is obviously intentional. Players NEED to be on edge in a dangerous place and havign everything planned out kills that feeling.>I also had a lot of trouble running Dungeon Shifts. I had no idea what was supposed to be shifting in Hole-in-the-oakFor real? Is it beyond this man's imagination to say "a door opens/closes"? Well the book provides a table with plenty options to choose from for such a desperate GM.A non-issue.
>>98035263There was no conversation guide because it’s 95% the same game. 2e just has high fantasy art instead of pulp art and there were some shitty XP rules
continued from >>98035354LAST PARTKeep in mind I've only got a surface level of the system in question (though I did re-check some things when writing this), just skimmed through the blogpost and yet found so many glaring errors that I just had to do this list.tldr;It's a sloppy job, and to my surprise no one in the comments pointed at least some of the issues with the arguments, including simple errors in avg damage calculations.Maybe Rancourt's readers just drift away anytime numbers start showing up? idunnoThe author is kinda bad at interpreting rules, and a solid portion of his “critique” boils down to "the rules don't specify what taking a step means!" [only a slight exaggeration on my part].Overall a surprising lack of understanding how gaming actually proceeds at a table is demonstrated by Rancourt.The lesson to learn here can be summarized by a Linus Torvalds quote>Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.Only trust reviews by people who actually played the game.
>>98035355NTA, but the 1e PHB art is gods awful. Just fucking awful. They should have out out a revised book before 2e
>>98035392>pulp artc'mon anon you are not completely fairsome pieces are pretty goodalso there is a certain charm to it
>>98035392I don’t think it’s all awful, but yeah there’s a lot that’s pretty bad. I wish there was an edition that had the quality of 2e art but the vibe of 1e. I think the closest thing to that is Hyperborea
>>98035355I actually like the 2e XP rules. You really have to massage the fuck out of them to get them to do what you want them to do, but I think once players understand that resolving an adventure is much more open-ended than something like a quest from a video game, it works incredibly well. XP for class actions though is dumb.
>>98035339>zero conversionFirst of all, it's false. But let's assume for the sake of discussion that it's true, which it isn't. It still doesn't mean it's the same system, stupid.
>>98035355>it’s 95% the same gameBullshit.
>>98035522>I actually like the 2e XP rules.You like awarding XP for learning the rules of the game, "role-playing" (as in making funny voices) making the game fun, not making fun of other players, story goals (going along with the DM's railroad), surviving, getting involved in the game, not disrupting the flow of the game, and not being argumentative?I have news for you. You're literally retarded.
>>98035533It factually does. You can't stop with the logical fallacies. Show me what 1e class or monster can not be ran out of the book in 2e.
>>98035533the argument is about systems being compatible as I recalland that does mean the systems are compatible
>>98035333I wouldn't call it an epic win or anything, just quite funny.
>>98035551>what 1e class or monster can not be ran out of the bookStill doesn't mean it's the same system, cretin.
>>98035550...no? Those are optional. I don't use those options.>(as in making funny voices) Except this one. Man, you do a good Borat impression, that's easily worth 100xp. "My wife!" Kills me everytime. So good.
>>98035556>the argument is about systems being compatible as I recallYou recall wrong. The claim is that they are THE SAME SYSTEM: >>98035042
>>98034934Sorry, this is not an OSR game, take it to /nsrg/.
>>98034966Wrong. This is an OSR thread, therefore only OSR games are on topic here, not unrelated games such as 2e and Knave.
>>98035580>Those rules are optional.Wrong. Unless your claim is that ALL rules are optional, by whose logic D&D and GURPS are the same game because all the rules are optional and therefore you can play both with the rules of Rolemaster.
>>98035538Could you do me a favor?Could you read this letter to the editor from Dragon Magazine #275, Sep 2000?
>>98035103There is no 1e-to-2e conversion guide because conversion is impossible. They are too fundamentally different systems, no equivalences can be established.
>>98035597>Dragon Magazine #275, Sep 2000?Dragon Magazine issues from after 1983 are not OSR, so they're off-topic, and I don't waste my time reading anything from them.
>>98035595...Have you ever actually read the 2e DMG?
>>98035550What is it about idiot no-games that they assume "roleplaying" is synonymous with funny voices? Were they all touched by a silly voiced adult when they were children?
>>98035597>3e and AD&D are different systems, so 1e and 2e are the same system!By that logic chocolate and strawberries are different foods, so chocolate and shit are the same food.
>2enigger is assblasted that Rancourt correctly demolished Knave>too poor reading comprehension to understand that all his critiques are 100% accuratelmao, like pottery
>>98035603Yes, that's an optional rules. The rules I listed:>XP for learning the rules of the game, "role-playing" (as in making funny voices) making the game fun, not making fun of other players, story goals (going along with the DM's railroad), surviving, getting involved in the game, not disrupting the flow of the game, and not being argumentativeare NOT optional rules.>B-but aLl RuLeS aRe OpTiOnAl!!!11111
>>98035583>you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...No, you are wrong, and I'm correctthe discussion started here >>98032922>They're all compatible anyway>Alright, stress test time.
>>98035624So you concede that your claim that they are THE SAME SYSTEM is retarded.Excellent.
>>98035602I want you to read it because it's a guy being incredibly bitter over 3e coming out. Just tearing out his hair and wailing how it's... let's find a good quote... ah, it's >"as if I had been stabbed in the back by the game itself."That's kind of what you sound like, except your "end of the world" was 2e coming out, and to the rest of the world, that's pretty funny considering just how similar 1e and 2e are.Even the whiny little lady, clutching her pearls in her letter to the manager, mentions how 2e's changes were just revisions that didn't make "any fundamental alterations to the basic system." You're genuinely more sensitive than a guy who cried about the new edition of a game coming out before he had even a chance to play it.
>>98035613nta but you clearly failed at readingread just the first paragraph
>>98035612>What is it about idiot no-games that they assume "roleplaying" is synonymous with funny voices?Understanding the difference between real D&D played the Gygaxian way and the theater kid dogshit that was pushed with the knockoff editions.
>>98035574It factually does. You are at this point trolling and not actually engaged in discussion
>>98035627that wasn't my claimyou are talking to more than one person, schizoid
>>98035601This is your cliam show me the 1e classes and monsters that can not be used in 2e
>>98035631>That's kind of what you sound likeThat says everything about you and nothing about him.
>>98035643Everyone is one guy to them
>>98035641>Compatibility means it's the same system.Jesus fucking Christ you're retarded.
>>98035620>are NOT optional rules.factually incorrect
>>98035646Geez you sound butthurt.The point is that you're even more of a bitch than that bitch, and it'd be good for you to hear what your wailing sounds like to other people.
>>98035643>If I say I wasn't the one who said it I can act like I never said something!You argue like a woman, scrawny nerd. Do you even lift?
>he's throwing down his "I lose" flag imagesI think we can actually keep score at this point.It's what, 2 Cool Guys - 0 BrOSR?
>>98035656>No proof.Stop making shit up and argue like a man. Offer proof or shut the fuck up.
>>98035657>it'd be good for you to hear what your wailing sounds like to other people.You're not people. You're not even one person, you're a subhuman.
>>98035661Picrel: fishfag when he's getting gang raped by the BrOSR
>>98035667I don't give a fuck what you think about it you little pussified bitch. You can scream about how boring it is all you want, it doesn't matter to me one little bit. If I cared about not being bored then I'm getting endless entertainment by watching you squirm in the palm of my hand like the wretched little insect you are.You're a walking talking STD, a pygmy subhuman, a digital disease that I wish, only for the health of this board, could be wiped out with a herbicide and made to drown to death in your own shit. Your gorilla like screeching over a superior game will never end though so we've all got to put up with your endless barrage of pathetic autism and front of being totally unaffected and totally not caring about how much more raped you get with every thread you post in, because all you want is to kill the discussion of games.I sincerely hope you catch cancer and then burn to death after suffering through it for a year. That's how much I don't give a fuck about you and your authoritarian bullshit.
At this point it's clear the trolls can not make an argument how 2e is not the same system as 1e. So there is no point discussing it with them as they have been backed into using insults and memes at this point
>>98035661>fishfag is so assmangled by images mocking him that he tries to claim being assmangled makes him victorious
>>98035433I find the PHB art to be pure trash. Not saying all 1e art is trash, but come on.
>4 Cool Guys - 0 BrOSRWhat are we playing to, 11?
>>98035675>Fishfag is so butthurt by that quote that he tries to use it on other people.If you didn't have a broken theory of mind you'd know it doesn't assmangle others as it does you, subhuman.
>>98035691>He thinks this'll make the mockery go away
>>98035692It's giving you a chance to hear how cringe you are.Guess you being unable to really appreciate just how cringey you are explains why you are, well, you.
>>98035689Thank you for this very insightful comment in a quality discussion. You're clearly not a nogames who uses D&D manuals as coffee table books.
>>98035699Don't feed the trolls & actually talk about games.
>>98035695At least give us another point if you're gonna keep shitposting in frustration.
>>98035699>how cringe you areYou're pretty when you cry. Spread your legs now.
>>98035705>Fishfag trying negative psychology trick to make the rapes stop.He's so smart for a child with Down's syndrome
>>98035704I agree, guys, please don't feed the trolls.
>>98035603>Player has an idea that saves the party>100-500 xp"Let's not go in this dungeon. It looks dangerous."*levels up*
>>98035704Yes please stop feeding the trolls
>>98035704NTA, but do you have a topic suggestion?
>>98035665the 2e DMG refers to sections under Experience as guidelines, unless they are specific instructions (i.e. yield a specific numerical value)>"role-playing" (as in making funny voices) making the game fun, not making fun of other players>getting involved in the game, not disrupting the flow of the game, and not being argumentativethat all falls under the "fun" category on picrelnot obligatory>survivingpicrelnot obligatory>story goals (going along with the DM's railroad)first of all railroad is not having a goal, it's having only one way to reach said goaland 2e DMG Experience section even specifically talks about players set goals in the same sectionand regarding the discussion topic please refer to picrel againnot obligatory>learning the rules of the gameI don't see it in DMG
>>98035736NTA, but I'm building up a demon-themed dungeon and I could use room ideas. Really ornate set-piece type shit that hammers in the idea that the demon prince is opulent and sadistic and has thousands of sacrificed victims to use in amusing decorations.
>>98035736nta but what do you think about my essay? >>98034934have you played Knave? did it went closer to what Rancourt implies or closer to what I argue for?
>>98035757Your reading comprehension sucks ass.>This chapter contains instructions for determining specific experience awards. It also gives guidelines about awarding experience in general.The introduction distinguishes between INSTRUCTIONS and GUIDELINES. The guidelines are relatively optional, the instructions are not.What I listed are instructions, so they are not optional.
>>98035785In fact, the rules that are actually optional are those explicitly marked as optional, such as Picrel, which is why I didn't include that rule in my list:>XP for learning the rules of the game, "role-playing" (as in making funny voices) making the game fun, not making fun of other players, story goals (going along with the DM's railroad), surviving, getting involved in the game, not disrupting the flow of the game, and not being argumentative.>>98035550
>>98035785>Your reading comprehension sucks ass.no, you are just salty you were wrong>'Should' is a modal verb. Modal verbs are used to give additional information about the main verb. 'Should' is used to talk about assumptions and to give advice.>'Must' is also a modal verb. It is used to show necessities. It is also used to talk about likely events and to give suggestions.>INSTRUCTIONS and GUIDELINESExactly!>instructions for determining specific experience awardsi.e. instructions should yield a final result in a numerical form to be awarded, everything else is guidelines, quite obviously as well, you can't follow a rule on how much XP to award to the letter if there is no actual rule describedonly two instruction cases being monsters and individual class awardsand that's why individual class awards is the only section additionally marked as optional, because it can be confused with specific instructions, while all others are clearly guidelinesPSI know you will never accept you are wrong, so you can't appreciate itbut damn I'm good
>>98035767 Lamps, chairs, leather made out of skin, souls used to power objects. Tormented souls and living victims used as art are always great starting points. What kind of frame you thinking here?>>98035769Gonna be honest, I tuned it out. Knave is too light for me and they was...a lot of math. Doing analysis like that is a good thing, it's useful to see how the games math works out. So while its useful, I am so not the target audience.
>>98035841Wow, you're really desperate. Again, it's very simple. Optional rules are explicitly marked as such in AD&D 2e. They say "optional rules" and even use a different background color.
>>98035844>Knave is too light for me>there was...a lot of math. ... I am so not the target audience.genuinely not hating, anon, but I can't walk by and not notice that's ironic as fuckalso I have to say previous to picking apart that Rancourt's blogpost I had no interest in Knave, almost zero (not zero because I pirated to skim through it once), like I forgot it existedbut now I kinda want to try itI think the armor system, the classless nature, and the power attacks would make it a perfect fit for bronze age sword and sorcery game I've been craving for in a while
>>98035874Thanks, AnonThe fact that AD&D 2e fans don't even dare to defend their game but instead resort to claiming that non-optional rules are actually optional is very telling. Fans of first decade D&D don't do that, nor do fans of 3e and 5e, who are both very proud of their rules in general.2etards, on the other hand, are ashamed of their own game and frankly, how could they not be?
>>98035874>Optional rules are explicitly marked as such in AD&D 2enothey are marked when they can be confused for non-optional rulesguidelines which can't be confused for non-optional rules don't need to be marked as optionalthe things you are referring to are undoubtedly guidelines both in how they are worded, and by the nature of being impossible to deduce a "non-optional" amount of XPjust stop the cope, anon>muh different background color.LOL you are calling me desperate?I don't even know who did that layout, that's obviously some later (possibly wotc?) release in your picrel and the person doing it clearly had no idea about the systems
>>98035895this kills the anti-2e-tard >>98035757
>>98035895You know, I had never thought of it in those terms, but you are very right. It's not the first time that this happens, 2etards do this all the time. Look at this one doubling down: >>98035908Hilarious.
>>98035908>the things you are referring to are undoubtedly guidelinesWrong again. Guidelines, too are explicitly called out as such. For example, WHEN to award experience points is a guideline.The ones I listed above are instructions, not guidelines,
>>98035908>muh different background color.The fact that you omit the fact that it explicitly says OPTIONAL RULE, and it's not just about a different background color, is effectively a concession.
>>98035874Nono, Optional only means when I want it to be non optional, that's the option part that doesn't exist.
>>98035908>muh different background color I don't even know who did that layout, that's obviously some later (possibly wotc?) release in your picrel and the person doing it clearly had no idea about the systemsAbsolutely fucking amazing the smoothbrain levels that this supposed 2e fan that definitely plays games has. The 1989 original 2e release did the exact same thing, you mong.How can you be this desperate to defend something you don't even have the most rudimentary surface knowledge of?
>>98035932Two of the traits that distinguishes 2e fandom from all other editions is that their draw is based on nostalgia and reading books as novels instead of as rulebooks.Nostalgia is why there's practically nobody who's a fan of 2e for its merits.Reading rulebooks as novels is why they don't really understand the rulebooks, and are constantly surprised when AD&D 1e fans point out the flaws of 2e to them. Then they go through the classic stages of cope. Denial, then bargaining ("but it's an optional rule!") the more bargaining ("but ALL rules are optional") and then back to denial. In a loop.
>>98035989>How can you be this desperate to defend something you don't even have the most rudimentary surface knowledge of?The other Anon explained it very well here: >>98036000Nostalgia and treating AD&D 2e books as novels.
>>98035878Hey if you think it will work for something you wanna run, give it a look. It definitely has a fan base.For S&S I have two black hack based games I would recommend. "by this axe I hack" and "Black sword hack". The second one might be right up your alley. Classless, very moorcock in style. It's one game I really wanna run but just don't have the right groups for it.
>>98035959>it explicitly says OPTIONAL RULEsee >>98035841>and that's why individual class awards is the only section additionally marked as optional, because it can be confused with specific instructions, while all others are clearly guidelineslook anons, I really don't see how any adult would in good faith argue "you may/can/could" is interpreted as an obligatory rule so you can proceed to kindly eat my shit
>>98036000>wasted digiteat shit retardand after you are done try applying the wording from the page in >>98035874 as a strict rulebookit's literally impossible because it doesn't even tell you how much to awardbecause it is a guideline, not a strict rule to follow
>>98036008from what I know about BSH I thought it was S&S in style and fiction but really it's the same shit every other D&D retroclone is under the hoodwhile what I'm seeing in Knave might support S&S bronze age mechanically
>>98036029>b-but everything in that chapter is guidelinesAgain, no. The intro to the chapter, that you quoted, says at the very top that it contains INSTRUCTIONS and it "also" contains GUIDELINES, so it says that those are two different things. When to award the XP is a guideline. Individual XP is an optional rule. The other rules are neither guidelines nor optional rules. They are instructions.
>>98036029>eat shit retardI accept your concession.
>>98036029You know a game is bad when the best defence its fans can conjure up is claiming that rules are just guidelines, but guidelines can be broken, so their game has no rules, so their game can't be criticised.
>>98036064Also that WoTC time-travel commandos went back to 1989 to sabotage the main rulebooks for the game they definitely play.
>>98036051Fair enough man. Ya gotta use what you think fits what you wanna do best.
>>98036077
>>98036064You really love that slippery slope fallacy, doncha.Saying rules are optional and self-described as variable isn't saying the game as an anarchic free-form dream-sharing experience. You really need to do better than just trying to do the dumbest bad faith arguments and then patting yourself on the back like anyone with half a brain would agree with you.
>>98036127>slippery slope fallacyIt's a parody, ignoramus.Other Anons have already pointed out to you how every single time you call something a "fallacy" you're wrong about it, why do you keep using words you don't understand?
>>98036127Wanna prove us wrong? Defend those rules
>>98036207yeah I've love to see him try
>>98036208*I'd love to see him try.
>>98036241>Yes, 2e is OSR and you are a stupid fagWhy can't you ever talk like a normal person? For example, do you have the guts to defend these rules for awarding XP in AD&D 2e?
>gets btfo by their own rules >abandons thread Figure they'll start another osr flamebait thread soon or just bump the >combat is a fail state thread?
newfag here. I have no horse in the ttrpg race, so you can rest assured the opinion below is the objectively correct one.I was really enjoying learning OSR systems until I understood what "combat as a fail state" means, and holy fuck it is stupid.I'm a FIGHTER (White/Male).I FIGHT.If I wanted to be a coward who flee from combat and roleplay "social encounters" I would just cut my dick off and go play 5e insteadFucking elitist mongoloids overcorrecting for 5e faggotry ended up with an even lamer game design philosophy
>>98035767Look at vtms cathedral of flesh/general vicissitude.Also lots of ornate demon faces (pillars with the capital & bases being demon heads so it looks like they're vomiting pillars, demon mouth archways etcAlso cages as decoration, cage chandeliers, cages abound.
>>98036466If you want a beat-em-up/combat fochssed game go play draw steel or pathfinder, heck even nimble. You will probably have fun.
>>98036275So nobody will defend the 2e rules for XP?
>>98036466Anon, you're in a troll thread. The only anons here are nogame retards and based Anons who mock them. The real OSR general is here:>>98004530
>>98036479Thank you for the polite response anon. I surely didn't deserve it lol>>98036499Ty for the headsup fren
>>98034934>>98035377A lot of this reads like nitpicking nitpicks, which is a hard position to argue from. These seem like solid points, but it also definitely comes off as looking for faults to find in someone looking for faults to find. And now I'm nitpicking someone nitpicking someone nitpicking; what a vicious cycle.That said, that Rancourt blogpost is pretty dumb and his intro does make him instantly unlikable. I appreciate the effort he put into the analysis, but his conclusions are really wonky, and definitely have him struggling with the differences a classless system presents, as you pointed out.>so it's really not as cumbersome as rolling all those dice one by one in a sequence and at an actual table this would bea non-issue.He definitely overmilks it just to get to his 127 rolls. I wanted to side with him on this one, because I instinctively want to side with reducing rolls, but the players being ready to just roll for spoilage for their remaining rations is not that bad, and having a d6 for each ration that can drop away is actually not a bad way to reinforce their presence (and depletion over time).I tried to find a way to side with him just for the sake of devil's advocate, but even the one place where I thought I could help him out definitely makes me wonder why he did an armchair analysis.
>>98036507That guy is the troll.
>>98035672>>98035681He's like Wimp Lo.>I am bleeding! That makes me the winner!
>>98036466Fighting being a last resort is actually one of the highlights, because that makes Fighters into something of a Closer, the reliable ace pitcher that is brought out when a game needs to be saved. And, considering that even when trying to avoid battles they're still pretty commonplace, that means a Fighter is the guy who routinely saves the day.
>>98036395...>>98036466...really? That's your play?
>>98036466OSR combat is often exaggerated in lethality and danger. Yeah, it's not baby soft like 5e, but it's also not "IF YOU FIGHT YOU DIE."
>>98036547I'm not the same anon. In fact I didn't even see his message until you pointed out lol.This is a sign from God>>98036555All I want is a simpler 5e without the faggotry. Any recommendations?I like everything around OSR but running away from combat, something that takes half or more of the rulebooks, seems incredibly stupid to me
>>98036596>I'm so retarded I didn't read the post directly above mine or >I'm fishfag Call it.
>>98036650Know those smug wine cunts who drink shit that tastes like donkey dick cheese and pretend it is good because makes them look "sophisticated"?That's you
>>98036650What do I stand to gain?
>>98036519Defend the XP rules of 2e or shut up>>98036275
>>98036542>Fighting being a last resortlmao nusr faggot
>>98036596>All I want is a simpler 5e without the faggotry.Shadowdark Quickstart. Rules Lite, uses the same basic skeleton as 5e. Very newfag friendly and the booklet is short and to the point. Off topic though, as it's prettty NSR.
>>98036714>Off topic though, as it's prettty NSR.In your opinion.
>>98036596>All I want is a simpler 5e without the faggotry.Castles & Crusades. It's everything 5e should've been while being OSR.
>>98036507>Thank you for the polite response anon. I surely didn't deserve it lolYou're welcome. Things are shitty in the threads rn but give it time. It should hopefully improve.
>>98034963I knew. When challenged by a player who could be a bit of a nuisance about my conversion of some Basic to AD&D back around '93 I told him there were conversion rules in RC. That satisfied him, and he said no more. What I didn't tell him is that I'd never even seen a copy of RC, only an advertisement.My custom conversion was fine. Campaign played happily. Everyone had fun.Several years later I saw the conversion rules.>a whole chapterThat sounds like a lot.Oh, 4 pages.Only 3 really.2.75 if you account for empty column space.P1Half page art, half a page on why convert.P2Reality shift: if something would ruin your AD&D game, it just disappears, too much treasure: gone, too many magic items: gone.If both systems have item X then obviousness ensues. A broadsword in Basic is a broadsword in AD&D. Who'd have thunk? Me. I did.Table with useful things like: Basic fighter becomes AD&D fighter.Basic elf who combines elements of fighter and magic-user becomes AD&D elf multiclass fighter/mage.*Add or subtract 1 hp per HD usually.P3Keep equivalent spell, lose spell if no equivalent. Same for skills, proficiencies. AD&D weapon proficiency and specialisation are like Basic weapon mastery.*Levels above 12 aren't 1 to 1 mappings.*AD&D demihumans with classes become Basic demihumans levelling as humans of the class with demihuman abilities.*Dual classed AD&D characters are exactly as you'd expect in Basic.*Some stuff about gnomesP4Monsters exactly as expected, same AC attacks, etc, trivial mapping of morale range 2-12 to 2-20.Magic items convert to equivalents.*Don't translate gods and immortals between systems.I had no need for the items I put an * next to. Hit points I worked out on basis of HD and modifiers in each system. I wasn't converting to Basic so I never looked at how to go in that direction.The rules are simplistic. As a kid I'd already done mostly what they described since they were blindingly obvious.
>>98036730That is actually what I an getting into right now
>>98036775Good choice. My only issues with C&C is it's lack of dungeon crawl turn/hex crawl rules like BX, and the lack of death at 0. Other then that it's solid.
>>98035844>What kind of frame you thinking here?I still haven't fully decided. The basic idea is a castle in the Abyss, with some treasure in the form of secrets held in the minds of various sacrificed souls (like spells, true names to use to summon creatures as servants, family recipes, etc.), with the demon prince and his minions entertaining themselves by using his castle as hunting grounds for souls that are sent to him while fashioning any caught souls into not-quite-dead decorations.>leather made out of skinI feel dumb for forgetting how much rich people love leather.>>98036471>Look at vtms cathedral of flesh/general vicissitude.Oh shit, this reminds me of the vampire castles in the Necroscope books.>a harrowing church-fortress, sculpted from the flesh of peasants, slaves, rivals, beasts, and any number of other victims who were built into the pulsing, suppurating walls of the structure built by the methuselah and his retinue over a span of millennia. That might be going a few steps too far, but maybe a few rooms can really go for that bio-horror look.
>>98036700What kind of Christian are you?
>>98035797Yucky. Bad touch. That's from the ugly black or green cover revised DMG because that is not from the beautiful 1989 original.>Third, experience points should not be awarded when a player is being abusive to others in the group or attempting to use his abilities at the expense of others. Player characters should cooperate to succeed.AD&D episode 2.5: The Woke AwakensPlayers being abusive to others is not okay at my table now and it wasn't okay in 1989. I don't need some silly rule book telling me to slap a naughty boy on the wrist by withholding xp, especially when I don't think I'd ever use that, shape up or ship out is more likely.Attempting to use abilities at the expense of others isn't often conducive to party harmony but it might be an appropriate thing based on the situation and characters.Is that revision full of such unhelpful hints? Do they get worse? Yeah, yeah, it's 2e so it's all like that. How clever.
>>98037005>Is that revisionIt's not a revision, just a different layout. So all the dogshit retardery is straight from the original.
>>98036793>Other then that it's solid.No, it isn't
>>98037028It is a revision because the bit I quoted is not in the 1989 DMG. There's a sentence in 1989 about players who make fun of others being "not really deserving" in the section about awarding xp for "Fun".>To give out experience points for fun the DM should consider...>Did the player make the game fun for others or make fun at their expense? The second is not really deserving of any reward.In other words>Players who make fun of others should not be awarded any xp for making the game fun.That's not what the revised version says, it's very different. The revised version is a blanket statement>Third, experience points should not be awarded when a player is being abusive to others in the group or attempting to use his abilities at the expense of others.Nothing about losing just an award for making the game fun, it's no xp at all under the individual xp rules.
>>98037085That's from 1995. What you're quoting is functionally equivalent, just minor rephrasing.
>>98035006Glad you're liking it anon. Huso's stuff can be unwieldy at times, but it's generally very high quality.
>>98037085>Players who make fun of others should not be awarded any xp for making the game fun.what if the zing is extra spicy tho
>>98036794I like it, what is his area of control? Lust, torment, greed, pain or suffering? Darkness? Forests? Or something else? Horning in on that can help shape your theme.
>>98037317A Demon Prince of Opulence, making him (secretly) quite popular with the nobility, who recieves so many sacrifices he can be luxuriously wasteful with them. A Demon whose greed and lust for power actually come second to his sadistic delight in taking someone's entire existence and treating it like a spoiled child treats a new toy they feel nothing for and just want to see broken.I want a guy the players can really hate down to his core, with everything in his castle being almost an insult to the souls trapped there.
>>98037108No, it's not FUNctionality equivalent and I already explained why.>>98037312>zingsHas someone been reading the super hero thread? In case you haven't, apparently there are two systems in which you can defeat opponents by delivering "sick burns and quips".
>>98032749OSR began as a reaction to what started in 2e.
>>98035874>>98035895All rules are optional, anon.
Gonna run B4 as my first OSR adventure to test the waters and see if my group enjoy the system. We've only got four players, and as B4 is intended for six to ten players, is there anything beyond the obvious, such as reducing the number of monsters in each encounter, that I should keep in mind? And should I expand the dungeon to include the Zargon tiers or should I just stick to the base tiers?
>>98037644I personally don't like scaling encounters downinstead I like giving players an option to have [more] recruitable NPCsIt might not be the best solution mechanically, since larger encounters take more time, but it sure as hell easier on me>And should I expand the dungeonI personally haven't played/run B4 yet but a friend of mine had and it took their table like 10 sessions for just the pyramid partgranted each table plays differently I still think it's a bridge to be crossed once you get there and you are asking this question way to earlybut most likely, no, no need to expand, that's already more than most campaigns last sadly
>>98037780>I personally don't like scaling encounters downIs there a specific reason why that is? Not dismissing your preferences, I'm mainly curious if scaling down encounters could bring about problems that I haven't anticipated>it took their table like 10 sessions for just the pyramid partInteresting, was this just the base tiers? I know campaigns usually progress slower than DMs expect, but from what I've seen B4 doesn't seem like an adventure that'd last a whole ten sessions
>>98037597>All rules are optionalThen why are only a few rules marked as such, retard?
>>98037441>I already explained why.Incorrectly
>>98037644Anon, you're asking on the nogame retard thread for shitposting. The real OSR general is here:>>98004530>>98004530>>98004530
>>98036490this literally just has been discussed and it went like this>the entire section opens up with saying it will list guidelines>it follows up with wordings that use suggestive modal verbs as guidelines do>and it's basically impossible to confuse those for not being guidelines because it doesn't offer any specific instructions on which specific XP rewards to assign>BuT iT dOEsN'T Say "As a guideline" AT tHE STaTR of EaCH SeNTencE so IT mEAns it'S nOt gUIdeLinEs aktuali>WHY DOES NO ONE WANT TO ENGAGE WITH ME?! THIS IS SO UNFAIR!it's because you are either a bad-faith trollor an intellectually deficient bad-faith troll
>>98037452>what started in 2eNothing in 2e started in 2e. As Cook says in the foreword:>It was at the end of one of these talks (at a convention in Missoula, Montana), just as I described some rules change, that one of the listeners smiled and said, "You know, we've been doing that for years." And that is what the 2nd Edition is all about - collecting and organizing all those things that we, as players, have been doing for years.
>>98037085>Players who make fun of others>make fun at their expenseThese are not the same thing. To make fun at the expense of others includes a whole lot more than just making fun of them, it also includes being a giant faggot who hogs all the attention and doesn't let anybody else get to do anything.
>>98038011>B-but muh modal verbsNo, faggot. One rule is clearly marked as optional, and wasn't included in the list for that reason. Those rules are not optional.Your game sucks ass, you know it, and you're too ashamed of it to defend it. Act like a man and admit it.
>>98038030>>Players who make fun of others>>make fun at their expense>These are not the same thing.They're literally the same thing. The bullshit you come up to defend an idiotic and indefensible rule system is hilarious.
>>98036515thanks for the read anon>A lot of this reads like nitpicking nitpicksthe second part in particular do be leik that at timesbut I would say at least half of my arguments address the central Rancourt's arguments, specifically that lead him to faulty central conclusions
>>98038019>"You know, we've been doing that for years."Everybody knows that the team who wrote AD&D 2e were all storygamers. You're not really solving a mystery here.
>>98038033>One rule is clearly marked as optionalsee >>98035841there is no need to mark a guideline as optional because it is by definition not a strict ruleAnyway>CALL IT
>>98037922>Then why are only a few rules marked as such, retard?No reply, of course.I accept your concession.
>>98038045>there is no need to mark a guideline as optionalThis is beyond ridiculous. They're all rules in the same chapter. If they're all optional, there's literally zero reasons to mark only one as such.
>>98038033>Act like a man and admit it.He's never going to admit it. Don't forget that he's only pushing 2e in the first place to disrupt /osrg/ and try to confuse the definition of OSR, not because he likes 2e, let alone because he's trying to find the best system for old-school play. It's all just horseshit bait, if he were prepared to admit 2e sucks ass he wouldn't be doing any of this in the first place.
>>98038033>muh modal verbslanguage is tool used to convey meaning, yesit's literally pointless to discuss rules that are laid out using language if you are going to ignore the language used>Your gameyou are confusing me for someone elseI haven't even played 2e since like 2001 and I really have no urge to, I'm just pointing out your understanding of that DMG section is incorrectI doubt that confusion is genuine, looks like you are trollingbut maybe your reason is simply shrouded by emotion, since this does seem to be a topic you are very emotional about, like a womaneither way you will never engage in a constructive discussion
>>98038034>They're literally the same thing.They are not the same thing, one is a subset of the other. If I derive amusement from continuously interfering with Bob the Wizard's attempts to cast magic by deliberately getting in the way, and Bob's player finds this annoying instead of funny, then I'm making my fun at his expense, but I'm not making fun of him. If I mock Bob's player's lisp, I'm also making my fun at his expense, and I am making fun of him.
>>98038097>Don't forget that he's only pushing 2e in the first place to disrupt /osrg/ and try to confuse the definition of OSR, not because he likes 2e, let alone because he's trying to find the best system for old-school play.Of course, but thanks for saying it explicitly in the interest of anybody passing by.
>>98038127>All rules in that chapter are optional, but only one is marked as optional because I say so.You're hilarious.
>>98038141>They are not the same thingThe difference, if any, is completely immaterial: The core fact remains that in "AD&D" 2e you give XP for having fun/being funny, despite your initial attempt to claim the contrary. And the XP rules in that chapter are the worst ever published in any edition of D&D.
>>98038141Additionally, we know that this is the sense they mean because they use it earlier in the chapter in the exact same way.>The AD&D game is not a game in which one player wins at the expense of the others.
>>98037830>Is there a specific reason why that is?there are a lot of encounters and a lot of treasureboth needs to be scaled down if you are going to bother with thatand that's a lot of work which is also easy to get wrongcontrary to doing all that it's much simpler to just add a couple more recruitable NPCs who join for a fair share of treasure so basically the specific reason is I'm lazy
>>98038157The obfuscation that this Anon comes up with to deny what's in the actual rulebook is really something.But no problem: When I get the time I'll make a new infographics with screenshots from the 1989 version, which will prove how full of sheet he is, and remove one obfuscation tactic.
>>98038011>>and it's basically impossible to confuse those for not being guidelines because it doesn't offer any specific instructions on which specific XP rewards to assignThis isn't entirely true. The Story Goal one does have a fairly hard definition:>The story award should not be greater than the experience points that can be earned defeating the monsters encountered during the adventure. Thus if the DM knows there are roughly 1,200 experience points worth of monsters, the story award should not exceed this amount.>The story award should give a character no more than 1⁄10th the experience points he needs to advance a level. This way the character will have to undertake several adventures before he can advance to the next level.The others are really floppy, the closest they get to numbers is the Individual Awards in Table 33 (good ideas, role-playing well, encouraging others to participate).The fact that this guy didn't immediately pull out the Story Goals numbers as a gotcha is a pretty strong indicator that he's not read the book.
>>98038177>Tries to switch topic to whether somebody has or hasn't read the book.>Still too ashamed of those rules to defend them.Weak.
>>98038168>so basically the specific reason is I'm lazyEh fair enough, the DMs got a huge workload to begin with, wanting to avoid more added work on top of that is perfectly reasonable
>>98038142>Of course, but thanks for saying it explicitly in the interest of anybody passing by.Naturally. It's worth constantly keeping in focus that this is a shitpost thread with no sincere conversation in it at all except for /osrg/ posters pointing out the trolling in detail.
>>98038181Alright nigger, here's your defence.>Reward players for being good sports, don't reward them for being assholes.I am 10 and this is necessary people management advice.>Reward players for knowing how the game works instead of slowing things down going "uhh how do I"This one should probably be kept low, so that it matters most when people are new and playing low levels, and becomes less important as they gain levels and experience. It's a decent lever to keep around, because there are retards who will refuse to read the book unless baited into doing so.>if you use xp for gold, you may end up with too much money sloshing around the campaignThanks for the warning book, I'll make sure to think of ways to get this money out of my players.>Story Goals, the only one with actual numbersSince the book handily includes clearing a dungeon as an example of a story goal this turns from "have ye completed the DM's Tasks Three" into "you accomplished something meaningful instead of fucking about in the woods for seven sessions, have some extra points". Obviously, works best when you include goals the players set for themselves instead of just what the DM has pre-prepared.The book recommends you reward players for knowing how the game works, getting in the mood, not being an asshole to others, and completing what they set out to do. Basic "reward people for doing things you want them to do more of" stuff, most of which doesn't even have a recommended reward tied to it so you can feel free to give them a token 5 XP. About the only one of these that is potentially undesirable is the last one, since it tempts you into running heavily directed Mighty Quests for Stuff all the time, but it's possible to handle it well.
>>98038045>Anyway>>CALL IT>fish gets btfo>starts repeating someone else's meme to duck and cover classic
>>98036659lol you can't even come up with new hyperbole Still weirdly obsessed with dicks though.
>>98038310NTA>Since the book handily includes clearing a dungeon as an example of a story goal=/=player direction at all given 2nd ed and many other module's linear design. The previous warning about xp for gp actually implies the players have even less agency in this case. The nreward for knowing how to play the game is playing the game well. If you need to bribe people into learning they won't actually learn the rules, they'll just learn how to get your treats. Even 10 year olds figure that out. If you've had to break your game down into HRMGMT style you're already fucked and designing the game to lead them around. Finally, you didn't defend anything you just made excuses.
>>98038310Jesus fucking Christ, defending that faggotry is MUCH worse than being ashamed by it. You're fucking retarded.
>>980380972e is objectively OSR. Even Matt Finch, co-creator of OSRIC, said it is in his Old School Primer.Your whole "only one guy thinks 2e is OSR and he's my personal nemesis and he just wants to ruin MY thread" shit now seems to indicate that, if true, means your Fishfag created OSRIC and S&W.
>>98038649>agreeing with one thing means you have to agree with all things This is how autistic you are.
