What lessons did you get out of the Sopranos or what did you feel the creator was trying to conveyI love the first seasons as I could relate very much with the ideas and views the characters had, needless to say you don't get a lot of characters who express conservative views in hollywood. seeing those ideas of "therapy is bullshit" "respect your elders" on tv was kinda funny because you don't usually see this type of speech from characters who believe in it, it's usually libtards characters mocking this stuff
>>204607525Soicillian mutts are just Jews with less class and more violence
>>204607525yea but they turned him into a liberal by the end of the show, and mock the average middle class's values and cultural mores because they don't have the tools to defend them
>>204607525>posts about the thread in question are off topicJanniefags have lost their fucking minds.
we are all products of our environment who can't change.
>>204607525>what did you feel the creator was trying to conveyWho cares? Writers are usually midwits and the characters are saved by the charisma of the actors.
>>204609089Wops and Ashkenazis are indistinguishable on a genetic level, so you’re probably onto something.
>>204607525That he has an inferiority complex and hates when Italians try to maintain their ancestors cultures instead of fully assimilating into the broad globohomo blob of people without any real culture or identity other than individualist workers who dedicate their lives to mr shekelberg, whose the only type of person allowed to maintain a jewish culture and community in this century.
>>204607525just your average shit lib commentary of the 2000s.IQ doesn't mean a lot, dismantling ethnic identity saying it's an accident of nature and shouldn't be proud of it, Italians aren't really Italian and have no connection to real italians, then at the end saying they've lost their identity, to corporate whiteness, the gays etc basically everything every other show was talking about at the time.
>>204609917Ashkenazis became closer to Sicilians due to them having European admixture, not the other way around.Some Ashkenazis can look phenotypically lighter than Sicilians despite not being genetically more Northern.
Therapy doesn't work.
>>204607525The point of the show is that it's a boomer fantasy about how a middle aged slob is actually a scary and cool criminal. It continually undermines that idea that any of it is glamorous by having them meet in dingy depressing strip mall parking lots and other suburban hellscapes. But the audience, to an overwhelming degree, just see and thing, 'Wow, Tony so cool and his dumb bitch wife should let him do more crime." It's the same thing that happened with Breaking Bad.
>>204609865only guy itt who actually watched the show
>>204610247>>204609865bulltshit
>>204607525Lessons? I watch for entertainment, not to be preached at or to act like an enlightened redditor fag.
>>204610180This has been happening since at least Archie Bunker. It’s happening right now with Homelander and formerly Joker.>Character is meant to be a strawman caricature of an ignorant racist/scumbag criminal>Audience takes his dialogue at face value and agrees with the racism>Actively root for the character intended to mock them
>>204610162He wouldn't have had as much anxiety if she'd let him cum down her throat
>>204609818I don't remember anything particularly liberal besides him not wanting to kill a faggot just for being gay
>>204609865>>204610365You're born to this shit. Why aren't i making pots in Peru?
>>204610180Dumb fuck zoomer
>>204610557the problem is that these writers view the world in terms of black and white morality, and then get pissy when others don't have the same point of view. but, it's not black and white, people are more complicated than that. humanity innately has a shadow/dark side, it's a part of us, and trying to paint those who possess it solely as being "others" and as inhuman monsters will always fail, because it's an active denial of something that makes us human.I think that most of the audience who empathizes with Tony understand on an intellectual level that he's a bad person and that his actions are irredeemable (most, there are certainly exceptions who look up to him), but they are more in touch with their own shadow and understand that he's still a human underneath, and ultimately his actions are self-destructive as well as outwardly-destructive, and so he causes as much pain to himself as to others and is trapped in a cycle of trauma and abuse. some people definitely take their admiration of him too far, but the writers trying to rub it in your face about how evil their characters are and how you're not supposed to feel any empathy towards them whatsoever, is equally an overreaction and shows a misunderstanding of why these characters are so compelling to begin with. nobody would watch 86 hours of a character study if that character had absolutely zero relatable characteristics at all. Tony is compelling because deep down he is like us, it's just his choices and environment propel him into a downward spiral.
>>204610557Thats just your own inability to comprehend people actually understand it was meant to be a mockery, but still like the characters anyways because they are only a mockery if you’re diametrically opposed to their values, and the people who root for them are not.Ironically enough, you’re the one who cannot understand people’s motives.
Show is about the transformation ot America from the late 90s through the Bush Era, primarily through the lens of the immigrant experience as they gradually become subsumed by the omnipresent American nihilist consumerist culture. Exploring how this era impacted economics, the family unit, and the self. There are of course many other themes explored.
>>204610680the whole notion of psychology being a jerk off, is a right wing thing. old ideals of masculinity like Gary Cooper being seen as stupid. having ethnic pride is stupid in the episode with the native Americans protesting Columbus. the fact that the only person on the show, without a single flaw and the voice of reason is a Jewish psychologist.
>>204611641>the only person on the show, without a single flaw and the voice of reason is a Jewish psychologist.did we watch the same show? Kupferberg was a deeply flawed character who kept sabotaging Melfi's sessions because he was enamoured with the celebrity of Tony Soprano. there aren't really any wholly good characters.
>>204607525Tony did everything he could to save his mother and Christopher and still fucked it all up. He never had the makings of a varsity athlete.
>>204611918>KupferbergNot him. You're right he was a shitheel. He meant the one that Carmela goes to for one session.>One thing you can never say, that you haven't been told
>>204607525>watching this wop garbage Fuck off
>>204607525I didn't watch Sopranos for schoolI watched it to watch it
Things come to nought, the best laid plans of mice and men…, etc.It’s a pretty nihilistic show.
>>204613037ah, oh yeah, I forgot about that guy
>You'll never see it comin, probably won't even hear it
>>204613151very observant. the sacred and the propane.
>>204613037but thats literally the most conservative viewpoint on the whole show. the guy said there's an absolute right and wrong and creating a muddle is only to make yourself feel better for being on the wrong side. Melfi is more of the voice of the shows viewpoint itself but the show has always been self critical in the liberal mode
I guess crime doesn't pay? All the big time bosses ended up dead, in jail, or were rats
>>204607525muh toxic masculinity or some shit
>>204611485>primarily through the lens of the immigrant experienceTony's not a fucking immigrant.
>>204607525i'm not naming ANY NAMES, but you die in your own arms
>>204613456Carmine was boss for decades and died of old age/stroke
>>204609865tony got worse
>>204613624yeah but he never got to wear shorts
>>204607525The Joker got raped
The American dream squeezes everyone the same, even mobsters. It isn't really possible to stand out today, whether as a big tough guy or crime lord, or even an entrepreneur, because everything that was once "a thing" in the old America we see in movies has died or been absorbed into a mostly anonymous society of petty schmuck consumers. Even the feds are just a bunch of jobbers. The American dream has leveled off. You can only move up so far. But you can move down, so your best bet is simply not to try for any meteoric rise, but just show up to work every day, watching TV by night, until you can retire, and watch more TV. Life is lived in the margins ("remember the little moments"), not in the big gestures, and it's lived best by little people, not big characters. In fact, the more of a big character you are, and the bigger gestures you make, the more you will conflict with life, and either die of pointless stress unappreciated by the little people anyway, or get "dealt with" so everybody can go back to business as usual. All of this conflicts with the sensibilities of the few people who, for contingent reasons, are hold-overs of another time. People who remember other ways of life, who are nostalgic for times that were more difficult but more glorious. Even people who simply remember that their parents were, yes, far more broken as people, but somehow there was something more "serious" and "real" about them. The mob is one of these hold-overs, but so are little neighborhoods that preserve their ethnic flair. Both are being absorbed into a "perfected" system that doesn't need mobsters, ethnic ghettos, or misfit "character" types anymore. Everyone can be the same now, a consumer and day-jobber, an anonymous schmuck. If he has some residual friction with the system, he can get therapy and sand it down. >The earth has become small, and on it hops the Last Man, who makes everything small. ... "We have discovered happiness," say the Last Men, and they blink.
>>204613569he sees himself as one. him and his crew are the endpoint of this immigrant assimilation. they still see themselves as Italians from the old country, working hard to scrape by a living in an oppressive, foreign culture. but the reality is they've been thoroughly assimilated by the machine and just don't realize it.
>>204607525Then watch anything from before 2005. You’ll see a lot more of those themes.
It honestly taught me that Boomers with families are just as depressed as the common neet with no gf. So what's the point?
>>204607525theres no message in anything over 3 maybe 4 hours, its just lore after that
>>204613688He wore shot pants in the Moses days
>>204607525in the bonus features of the s1 dvd chase says something to the effect that the "joke" of the show was that america had become so selfish that even a mob boss couldn't cope with it
>>204615106It's all a big nothing
"Jews with better food."
I don't think there's a ton of big lessons given that's not really a big thing in the show imo, but one I would say is in threading the needle on the agency of fucked up people in being who they are a la tony, like yes it is true that you can be molded into a psycho from fucked parents like tony had or from fucked circumstances, but at the same time there is an ability to break free of it so long as you're aware of the issue, something which tony and many others refuse to do.>>204613624given jimmy petrille the lupertazzi consigliere flipped he got lucky he died when he did or he would've been fucked if you believe tony's lawyerone theme of the show is to both deglamorize the old mob and to point out that the period of the show was when the wheels were coming of the mob wagon. which isn't wrong, the mob nowadays is a shadow of itself and I wouldn't be shocked if it's almost extinct outside of canada and new york city in 30 years
>>204615351honestly I kind of agree with this, you could condense the show into just a few episodes from S1 and still get all the major themes across. it's frankly not that deep of a show in terms of messaging. you stick around for the well written and acted characters, the drama and the humour. don't get me wrong it's a fantastic show with a lot of layers, but don't overthink it. the message is basically: mafia bad, america bad...people bad. and also about cycles of trauma and abuse. David Chase hates everyone and is miserable. that's the show. the real meat is in the characters and their relationships imo.
>>204610162>female shows interest in his life>instantly falls for her>keeps going back just to see herahh yes. the problem was therapy all along. you are clearly very observant
>>204607525its like a time capsule
>what lessons did you get out of the sopranosIt sure as fuck wasn't one of consumerism like David Chase intended.I did walk away with a raging hard on for older Italian women. Arties wife, Carmela, Ro, the doctor, and the mafia boss lady to name a few. Oh, and gabagool is fun to say. Meadow can get it too.
>>204607525The best has already happened and we came in at the end.
>>204616469Fuckkn slander axe me
If you get any message besides "David Chase hated his mother" you weren't paying attention.
>>204610180sopranos is nowhere near as didactic about it as breaking bad which literally ends with I GUESS I GOT WHAT I DESERVED. the final 9 episodes are the most artistic things ever put on television next to twin peaks
This show gets tiring after season 2. Tony's character, even Carmelas, follow the a sinple formula. Family annoys him, he falls for a new goomah, damages his relationships further. Carmela can't stand Tony anymore, a man takes interest in her, she considers cheating, man cuts it off since she won't put out in time. Every season also has a pattern of opening up with a hospital visit or funeral and then the seasonal villain and major problem.The only interesting shit is with the characters that last a season or season and a half before they die because they're more interesting than a fat mob boss who sulks around with his annoying kids. At least the dream sequences are interesting (Except for the one that lasts a whole fucking 2 episodes). Still a great show, I just can't stand the same problems 2 major characters keep finding themselves in.
>>204616469>David Chase hates everyone and is miserable.This. he looks like the most depressed person alive.
>>204610557>>Character is meant to be a strawman caricature of an ignorant racist/scumbag criminalDifference is early season Tony was actually charismatic and is clearly intended to be a flawed but intelligent leader (and fans liked him as a result) so Chase made him into an egotistical asshole in the later seasons to compensate
>>204617110You'd look like that too if you grew up in NJ as an Italian and didn't get accepted as a mob goon. It's heartbreaking.
>>204617110friendly reminder livia is based on his own mother
>>204610162Its a racket for the jews
>>204607525The main message is morality. The decline of the mafia, the decline of American culture and the breakdown of the family unit, the road towards impending doom and death. That's really what it's all about. The last 2 seasons in particular really hammer this theme of mortality the most. The characters take the easy way out in life and refuse to work and struggle the way their ancestors did, and for what? To die dishonorably or rot in prison. That is all their life and legacy is. That's why Tony cries when he sees Cleaver -- he knows the image he leaves to the world will be some angry guy in robes having sex with whores, it's all he ever really accomplished before death
>>204617207
>>204617220It’s about a wise guy with a big heart, and bigger dreams
>>204617105I do find some of the storylines get repetitive when you watch the whole show at once. the fatigue really hits me starting around the tail end of season 4, and especially season 5. still better than 90% of other television show. the dialogue is so well written and snappy and the acting is great, it's shot well with music used to great effect. it's just a lot of fun to watch even when plot is kind of weak.also think you have to keep in mind that the show didn't ever have a plan of where it was going, they made it up as they went along and frequently made major plot adjustments to accommodate real life circumstances with actors etc. my point is, the show is ultimately just a soap opera. albeit, a very well done soap opera. but I think we forget that because of it's reputation as "prestige" television. and to be honest, the show probably wasn't made with binge watching in mind either. there were sometimes multiple year gaps between seasons and I'm sure watching it live didn't feel as repetitive.
>>204607525Bad decisions in life will inevitably come for you later. The crow that appears in Chris and Gene makes it look like they both cursed the rest of their lives.Furthermore, the choices you make will affect directly the people you love, no matter your intention. AJ's apathetic attitude and depression and Meadow's waste of potential and heading to a life of lawyering for the mob and marrying a dude that comes from the same backround comes directly from the way their dad earns his lifeWhen Tony asks Junior if he doesn't love him and Junior starts crying, I get that these people cannot truly afford the risk of loving somebody, even if they want to. Junior obviously has fond memories of Tony as a kid, at the same time he ordered a hit to him. They have to kill themselves everyday to keep the thing going on.At the same time, much of what we become is what we really can't control. With the upbringing Tony and his sisters had the best one could hope for is Barbara having to strange herself from all of it. Most likely you will end up a mess like Janice, and in the case of Tony, where his character matched the psycho surroundings he had to sufer, he really didn't couldn't be any other way
>>204613770Great analysis
>>204617172>>204617188so? I'm Italian from Long Island, and my mother screamed at us every single day of our lives, where's my pity party?
>>204617629>where's my pity party?you can have it when you make a famous and acclaimed tv show based on your life
>>204616403daily reminder that the govt could have stopped all cartel activity and all nigger gangs by now toobut didntbecause they are not white
>>204617415I agree with you on all that. Perhaps binging it was my mistake. I was able to tough through the repetitive story arcs and circular development for the two major characters because of the rest of the casts stories and problems were interesting enough to put up with Sopranos family stories. For example the plot of the feds bugging his house was a great change of pace. Overall the dialogue and acting is what made it incredibly addicting, it all feels natural. The lighthearted moments and jokes that slip in during tense times is solid too (mainly Paulie and Christopher fucking up two hits).Personally, I believe if season 1 had ended with Tony sophicating his mother and Junior staying in jail it would make for a perfect ending, I'd almost recommend pretending that's how it ends unless an edit exists that cuts down the shit with Meadow and AJ some Carmela dates (Tony's are decent, especially the car dealership lady since her dream sequences are visually interesting).
>>204609865Tony’s other sister was nothing like the rest of them despite coming from the exact same background.
>>204617815But she was the youngest. Probably had her raising years without Johnny around or at the very least without the same grip he had with Tony and Janice. Same thing with Livia.And she had to put serious distance between her family and herself to be able to be anything different. Janice tried it but always came back because Johnny and Livia probably had more opportunities to fuck her up
>>204617951I could see that, but I doubt they would write a Soprano that’s not tied to the mob without a reason. The only reason that could be, would be to illustrate Tony and Janice made a choice to get involved. Otherwise, I don’t see why the character exists.
>>204618031Oh yeah I think the scene where kid Tony watches his dad cutting that dude's finger off without a sign of horror is blatant in that he really is his dad's son, to say it that way. He can sit there and blame it on his upbringing all 6 seasons but Tony is just the man that he is.The thing is that kind of upbringing negatively affected all of them, in different ways and according to their own personalities. Tony was meant to be a piece of shit, but if Johnny and Livia died in a car crash when he was 2 and he went to live with a stable foster family he probably would have been a more benign kind of asshole like some business type or whatever he was dreaming to be when he was in a coma
>>204609865>can't changethey absolutely could change, the point is they chose not tolike tony could have accepted the fact his father wasn't a saint who could do not wrong but a piece of shit who ditched him to spend most of his time with some washed up livia esque jewish hooah, but instead just chose to sink back into whining about noone but his motherchristopher could've gone into the witness protection with adriana but chose not too because he saw that family at the gas station and thought that'd be his life vs. his high rolling bullshit>>204618228yeah the show isn't implying that their environment didn't affect them, but it is saying that one can rise above that if you choose to do so
>>204607525Horses life worth more than strippers.
>>204617808Season 1 was supposed to be a movie and that’s how it would’ve ended, Tony killing his mom
>>204618348>they absolutely could change, the point is they chose not tothis. almost every single character is given a chance of redemption at some point, and refuses it. Carmela has the truth about her life laid out for her by the therapist, builds up to separating from Tony, and having a chance at real love with AJ's school counsellor...just to throw it away because she's too attached to her wealth.Vito is given a chance to start over and finally live true to himself, but throws it away because he can't handle a 9-5 job. and so on.they ARE victims of their circumstances in many ways, but they're also the perpetuators of it. I think the point is that it's a cycle. hurt people hurt people.
>>204618348Absolutely, but there are harder environments to overcome than others. Some situations are so bad that they will affect you in a way that you can only amount to be a semi functional civilian, in my opinion.
>>204618452It’s all about anxiety. Literally, that’s why Tony has panic attacks. He knows he’s a bad person. He knows the mafia is bad. He knows his father was a deadbeat piece of shit who forced him into this life. But he doesn’t have the power to admit it. He would have to confront his sins and sacrifice the life he has. It’s too hard. Working and suffering in this world like his Italian immigrant ancestors did is too hard. Every character has a variation of this theme of anxiety and refusing to accept culpability for their actions
>>204618390IIRC the plan was always to have him kill her but circumstances caused it to not happen (nancy wanted more work so she stayed past season 1, then she died before the season 3 plot could happen)>>204618467oh yeah don't get me wrong not all environments are equalbut it is important to remember that even with that we all have agency
>>204607525Therapy doesn't work. Crime pays handsomely and gets you pussy. Gay men are devious. Never trust a woman. The turd doesn't fall far from the faggot's ass. These are the lessons I learned from the Sopranos.
>>204618634Totally. Still, I think they showed normal people like Finn or that Porto Rican AJ girlfriend walking away from that madness as a comparison to the greater effort it would take from AJ and Meadow. It's really hard to walk away from your family.The choices are there but you would have to make a really hard effort when you're in the middle of that bullshit.
>>204618809for reasons I dont want to talk/blogpost about I had a realization that most of my family did not in fact give a flying fuck about me or part of my immediate family. it is indeed a very painful revelation to go through but believe me you do not regret getting away from their toxicity in hindsight, the initial hurdle is the hardest part imomy mother I think struggles far more with it, but in that respect I'm more like AJ and her tony when it came to bearing the brunt of the insanity, like she grew up in a shitty environment whereas our household was on the whole "normal" which I suppose does give some weight to your point
>>204619124Yup I get you. It's a very complicated issue where nature and nurture come to play, but your point is also true as truth comes. Tony didn't want to change and to him therapy was intended to stop blacking out so he didn't appear as weak to his rivals. He got comfortable with it's my mum shit and basically excused himself from blame. It's what Melfi bitterly realizes at the end, that she perfected Tony's ways to cope with his devious endeavors more succesfully, and that, being as hard as it is, without a true desire to change from within, there's nothing that could be done by anybody else.
>>204619124>>204619367>my mother I think struggles far more with it, but in that respect I'm more like AJ and her tony when it came to bearing the brunt of the insanityI very much relate anon. my grandmother was like a WASP version of Lydia, just a vile person. and my grandfather was a military veteran who left behind a lot of trauma and pain. my mom did her best to keep a normal household and I love her dearly, but she still passed down a lot of that trauma to me. and it took me a very long time to realize that, and come to terms with the feelings that I've had all my life. and it was painful. it's hard to admit to myself, but I'm a lot like AJ. this show hits hard for people with family trauma (which I think a lot more people have than would like to admit, or maybe even realize) >>204619367>being as hard as it is, without a true desire to change from within, there's nothing that could be done by anybody else.yep. for anybody who's been through it though, it IS hard. you really have to be vulnerable and recognize your pain. and the more the cycle of pain continues over generations, the harder it becomes to shed it. for some of the kids in the show it was nearly impossible to escape the shadow of the mafia; they're paying the debt for generational crimes. but, you do have a choice who you surround yourself with too to an extent and it makes a huge difference. in distancing myself from parts of my family, I met great people and learned I could choose my own family. the mob is a lot like that, but it's a self destructive mirror; in their chosen families, they have recreated the toxic environments of their families instead of outgrowing it
>>204607525Only half joking when I say that The Sopranos is a show about a man who DESPERATELY needs a dog but no one in his family or friend group realizes it or cares enough to get one. The man is having anxiety attacks spurned on by fucking ducklings in his pool. He’s spinning out. Get him a little lab puppy for Christ sake. There’s nothing stronger than the love between a dad and the dog he swears he doesn’t want.
>>204607525>What lessons did you get out of the SopranosItalian Americans stink on ice.
>>204619980Tony would absolutely love a dog. but I imagine he has a personal rule about owning animals because it would be too convenient of a target for adversaries who wanted to get at him. look at how he broke down over Pie-Oh-My...if some rival of his kidnapped or killed his dog, he would go absolutely postal.
