>Moore recalls thinking that Rorschach would be seen as a satirical character. In spite of giving the masked figure an "abhorrent personality", Moore admits that he failed to realize "people in the audience would find such a figure admirable". Moore even describes his surprise when he discovered Watchmen had a large, right-wing fanbase. In his boldest declaration, Moore says that if his stories can be that misinterpreted "it does make you wonder what the point of doing it was".
He’s LITERALLY me.
I agree with Moore he’s a terrible writer who constantly misses the mark and is incapable of getting his point across.
>>204783957Moore accudentally stumbled into success.
>>204783957>wh-what? People actually like a vigilante that brutalizes criminals and kills murderous pedophiles? >ahhh I'm going insane! Why do lefties misunderstand how normal people think so often?
>>204784038Moore is a pedo so you get why he thinks a guy who kills pedos is supposed to be bad.
>>204784038Because they're mostly pedophiles. They were molested as kids and think it's ok.
>Umm you weren't supposed to like the guy that lives life by own code and kills violent criminals, now bin that blade
>>204784038Because your superficial understanding of the character is exactly why he views it as a failure.
>>204784439I think Moore's superficial understanding of the human mind is why Rorscharch's characterization failed. Being smelly and performing verbal thought crimes? Worse than Ozymandias killing a whole city because of...nixon
>>204783957once a work of art is out there. its no longer yours and everyone is free to interpret it however you like. you are a mere vessel and nothing more
I'll tell you one thing, if Rorschach got the blue man's powers things would be better for everybody
>>204784667>I'll tell you one thing, if Rorschach got the blue man's powers things would be better for everybodyThis. Walter is the one guy I'd trust to be God.
>>204784582It comes down to death of the author vs media literacy.
>comic about a gay elitist who feels entitled to kill millions for "the greater good"What did Moore mean by this?
>>204784702Kinda wish the author would die desu
>I was surprised that my character that was basically Dirty Harry or Travis Bickle had the same reaction those movies had
>>204784038>wh-what? People actually like a character that is honest and has integrity?>ahhh I'm going insane!
>>204784554I mean he's a hypocrite, is heavily myopic and blinded by his own ideology. So that's probably why Moore wanted the reader to view him as a caricature.But at the same time he's the only character in the series that continuously tries to act morally upright and have a sort of compass. It's really hard not to admire him for that.
>>204784038hes a complete hypocrite who steals from his friends lol no wonder right wingers love him
>>204785080he literally says that he would gladly watch everyone die in his opening monologue
>>204785412Yes, then later when he finds that his associate actually did it, he's horrified, realized he was being a cunt, and attempts to go rat him out
>>204785368I'm riding with Kamala.
>>204783957Moments where the author learns he's more ignorant than the audience.
>>204785080>continuously tries to act morally upright and have a sort of compassyou can say that about everyone and that's the fucking point. rorschach isn't any more on the right or wrong than ozy or laurie
>>204784819You were supposed to agree with Veidt because Moore is kind of retarded. See also any comparisons between V for Vendetta and the Thatcher years.
>>204785576Then why isn't Alan Moore ever pissing himself over anyone agreeing with Ozy or the Doc?
>>204783957>Moore recalls thinking that Rorschach would be seen as a satirical character.No he didn't. Not WHILE he was writing him or immediately after. Back then he even outright admitted on an occasion or two that Rorschach was even his "personal favorite character" out of the cast he created for Watchmen.Rorschach only became some kind of "misinterpreted satire" literal YEARS later when the creator became more spiteful, bitter & attention-seeking to the point of being willing to engage in "trolling" via making statements that aren't genuine but instead intentionally inflammatory.It was the EXACT same shit with Lucas deciding literal years after he "quit" directing and the cat was out of the bag as far as him not actually being responsible for the creativity & success of Star Wars that suddenly the Ewoks ACTUALLY represented the brave, valiant genocidal Communists of the Vietcong and the evil Empire that had always been a representation of the Soviets with a half-coat of Nazi point on them ACTUALLY represented da evul Amerikkkan Fascist Oppressors.Fun Fact: People who have at least SOME level of genuine talent can also be attention-seeking hacks. And they most certainly gradually TURN INTO attention-seeking hacks.
>>204784667That's actually a genuinely good idea for one of those Elseworld/"What If?" stories.
>Why are people interpreting a character named Rorschach differently than I do?
>>204785585>You were supposed to agree with Veidt THAT'S what you got out of the ending scene, and you have the balls to call Moore retarded?
>>204785412>>204785488There's nuance there you're ignoring; in his opening monologue, Rorshach talks about leaving people to a fate *of their own making*, not necessarily individually but certainly as a society. He's also speaking metaphorically about society getting worse, not about a literal tide of blood in which people are literally drowning. He can't and won't fix the country's problems, but that's not the same as leaving people to literally die.When Veidt kills everyone, that's just out-and-out murder.
>>204785080>I mean he's a hypocriteNot really, no. In fact in the end it's arguable that he's the LEAST "hypocritical" character out of all of them in terms of his morals & resolve.>is heavily myopicMeaningless.>blinded by his own ideologyWhat "ideology"? Doing the right thing? Rape & Mass-Murder being wrong?Also, how is he "blinded" by it? Because he believes in what he's doing being right & pursuing it?Hard to call that being "blinded by your own ideology" when he's standing right next to Veidt, i.e. the guy whose own much weirder & questionable personal "ideology" led him to literally kill everyone in New York City.
Moore is so retarded he loops back around to accidentally writing pure kino.
>Rorschach sticking to his principals:|>Captain America sticking to his principals:O
>>204786147>Rape & Mass-Murder being wrong?He was fine with Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, literally said it was a good thing
>>204786351A state of war existed between the US and Japan. Was there a state of war between New York and Ozymandias?
Hello media literate friends I have a question for you; what would you call a character(person) that is aware they are a hypocrite and changes their morals or beliefs on a whim to suit their needs?I like that sort of character that is completely aware and embraces they are a hippocrite
>>204786475Pragmatist.
>>204783957Intentional fallacy. I’m also nearly 100% sure that Rorschach was meant to represent a type of hero, or at least the most moral person in that context, but a Nietzschean hero of the old left. Especially since the name of the antagonist is Ozymandias, obviously taken from the poem of the same name, which is trying to create a new world (or maintain the status quo of the current world) built on blood and lies
>>204786418The US blew up two cities full of people who had nothing to do with the war instead of targeting Japan's military bases. It's not different at all from what Adrian did, kill innocent people and give the blame to a :bigger evil" (his made up alien)
>>204786475madam president
>>204783957Is Moore autistic?
You must be a really shitty writer if you make a character people aren't supposed to sympathise with but they still do.Then again, you must also be a really shitty writer if you work in the comic book industry
>>204786967First of all, the squid is a lie, whereas there really was a war happening. You can say the people of the two cities were not responsible, and I personally wouldn't argue against that. But there are material differences between the two scenarios, and you can't pretend there aren't. You can, as you seem to do, dismiss them from consideration by claiming that they are not MEANINGFUL differences, but if Rorshach's position is that they ARE meaningful differences, then he is not a hypocrite; his value system is in fact consistent.
>>204786967>instead of targeting Japan's military basesnigger, hiroshima was chosen because it had an important military basenagasaki was kind of a last minute choice because of bad weather but it nevertheless also had an important japanese portthese targets were relevant strategically speaking, they weren't just random cities with nothing to do with the war
>dies for idealism>is lovedYeah that never happens Alan
>Alright guys here’s my new comic book character, Prince Vektor de la Galaxio Glorius the Devil Crusher>NOOOOO don’t you see that the demons are the good guys? It’s satire, satire! STOP ROOTING FOR COOL CHARACTERS
>>204788131Image made me lol
>>204786351>unironically trying to compare an act of war that ENDED a war but had collateral damage to a cockamamie nonsensical gambit that was literally engineered to maximize casualties for shock-valueWant to know how I know you just get your talking-points from articles about Moore/Reddit and then just repeat them as sound-bytes?
>>204785711lol
>>204786967>The US blew up two cities full of people who had nothing to do with the war instead of targeting Japan's military bases.Retard, are you unaware that Hiroshima & Nagasaki WERE "Military Bases"? Hiroshima was literally the center (as much as one could exist in such a complicated system) of Japan's Industrial Manufacturing of weapons, vehicles & munitions for the war-effort, and Nagasaki was one of its most critical shipping & distribution hubs for keeping the war-effort supplied & sustainable. THAT'S why those targets were picked (and consequently why the bombings worked & ended the war, forcing the last global super-power that would EVER surrender & capitulate to actually surrender & capitulate). They weren't targeting the population; they were targeting the Military Infrastructure. The casualties were collateral damage (largely resulting from Japan's refusal to geographically isolate their critical war-industries away from dense civilian population centers, with critical war-industries being internationally deemed & recognized as a valid war-time target). And that collateral damage wasn't even that remarkable due to being "large"; Bombing-Campaigns such as Operation Meetinghouse ultimately caused far greater total collateral casualties than Hiroshima OR Nagasaki, despite being conducted with traditional Explosive & Incendiary Munitions (which are, apparently, "OK" to use according to Leftists even if you kill more people) rather than the "scary" alternative of a singular Nuclear payloads.Had the goal been to maximize casualties the US would not have targeted comparatively backwater and lower-population cities like Hiroshima & Nagasaki; they would have dropped the bombs on Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, Yokohama or Nagoya. And yet they didn't. Because maximized casualties, let alone maximized civilian casualties, weren't the goal.As per usual the people unironically marching lockstep with Alan Moore have a child's understanding of History, War & Geopolitics.
Rorschach was just coping with his shitty life. When Veidt blows up NYC and saves the world, he can no longer cope and suicides by cop.
>>204789732already mentioned here >>204787791but as you can see, no one gives a shit nor can continue any conversation, this is a zombie thread already
Had it ever occurred to him that regardless of which side of the political spectrum you're from that more often or not both liberals and conservatives will reach a similar concensus on a topic or debate? I mean look at the way left wing activists categories and value people based on race, how is that any different from what they deem legitimate racism? Or how suddenly liberals are becoming more and more antisemitic for the same exact reasons that right wing personalities were antisemitic?
>>204785576I mean the comic book shows Ozy to be ultimately wrong tho...
>>204783957People used to write the opposing political side as that side and not strawmen so sometimes the character would be relatable.
>>204791600The comic shows nothing ultimate. It literally says nothing ever ends. Jesus you are dumb.
>>204783957Woe
>>204783957>cool as fuck design>stays trues to his principles despite how pigheaded he is, at the cost of his own life>violent and edgyWow what a mysterious. Reminds me of these people seething over Bateman Sigma memes and thinking it's admiration for him being a murderer and surrounded by fake ass bitches. No, it's cause it's easy for memes cause it's young Bale looking fine as hell whilst having wealth and status, you retards.
>>204789732Shame the allies only stopped maximizing civilian casualties after they already finished their firebombing campaigns in Europe.
>>204791457And the reason why Im mentioning this is because he sees the people that "misinterpreted" watchmen as idiots, but in reality moore unknowingly wrote a character that appealed to conservatives because he's identifies with some conservative core values but the way in which he reached certain conclusions on those values were vastly different circumstances.In otherwords hes not too far off from being a chud himself.
>named rorshack>surprised when people see what they want to see in himWtf is wrong with this retard?
>>204791690See>>204785789How you interpret this as anything other than Veidt being wrong is baffling.
>>204783957How was Rorschach even seen as a hero back in the glory days? He’s as dumb as a bag of bricks. So they can’t go with the “ends justify the means” angle with him. I’m surprised he wasn’t arrested by Nite Owl or killed by a bunch of feds
He'll look down and shout, hate himAnd I'll whisper, nah
>>204791895Is he different in the movie or something? I’ve only ever read the comic.
>Sissy creative onions male doesn't understand that a powerful/principled/objective male character appeals to the vast majority of normal masculine men example #467
>>204791961What principles does that faggot have? He changes his views on a whim depending on whether he likes you or not.He justifies Comedian being a rapist but then goes on to kill the rioters who were going to ass fuck him to death in that prison cell.
>>204792021He is more powerful/objective these aren't necessarily shared qualities just masculine traits that men immediately tune in to
>>204783957Alan Moore also thinks it’s normal to worship a snake god
How is it that every time a Rorschach/Watchmen thread is posted, you get the EXACT same posts as every other Rorschach/Watchmen thread, including this one? Is this like a weekly discord raid? For what purpose?Very few people ITT actually read the comic. Everyone calling Moore wrong did not read the comic, or did not understand it. They misinterpreted some quotes and watched the movie, if at all.Also, Moore has verbatim said he is literally Rorschach in one interview, and in another he says Rorschach is the hero of the story.
>>204791815So the whole thing is a Shaggy Dog story then. Ozy is wrong for killing a whole bunch of people, and Rorshach is wrong for wanting to punish him for killing a whole bunch of people.Watchmen really is overrated shit
>>204785789I’m still annoyed that Snyder didn’t include that dialogue at the end
>>204792180Not including at all would have been an improvement. Repurposing it was insanely dumb.
>>204792159It's overrated when you don't get it, sure.
>>204785576Rorschach gives his life for it
>>204788131>STOP ROOTING FOR COOL CHARACTERSThis is really the crux of it. These writers are uncool and their attempts to write uncool characters fall flat on their faces.
>>204783957Bro you cannot feed a pedo to his dogs bro you are just as bad as him bro you need to spend thousands of taxpayer dollars to re-habilitate him, then release him just for him to do it all again in five years bro please trust the system bro
>>204785669Exactly. Moore is a bitter old man who believes that he was screwed out of the profits he believes he was "rightfully" owed by not reading his contracts fine print. Ever since that happened he has relentlessly badmouthed every super-hero work he ever wrote and the entire concept of super-heroes. Strangely he was perfectly happy to write superhero stories and take DC's money before the legal troubles. Almost as if he has a personal grudge.
>>204792407pseud cope
>>204789314>cockamamie nonsensical gambit that was literally engineered to maximize casualties for shock-valueYou just described the nukes
>>204792658Rorschach is the type of character Moore loves to write. That's why he made him the protagonist. V, William Gull, and Hyde are some of his other favorite monsters. How do people also not notice that Ozymandias is easily the bad guy? Do people think that because Moore doesn't approve of readers idolizing Rorschach that Rorschach was meant to be wrong and Ozymandias right? That's not how it works.>>204792766If you look through his interviews, it was gradual. In the early 2000s, before the movie was made, he still said he was fully proud of Watchmen, that he worked very hard on it, etc. He still read from the comic as Rorschach. Then the movie happened. Then one of his friends was turned down from some money by DC. Then Before Watchmen happened. Then the HBO show. They have kept incessantly bugging him about Watchmen to this day. They used his connections at DC, people like Gibbons, to try to coax him into approving shit. Even acting like a crank hasn't worked. >believes that he was screwed out of the profits he believes he was "rightfully" owed by not reading his contracts fine printHe was. He got thoroughly jewed. Once instance was the initial line of Watchmen merchandise, which he and Gibbons never saw a penny of because it was "promotional material" and didn't count as merchandise.
>>204784819is that tintin?
>>204792021>He justifies Comedian being a rapistNo he doesn't. He doesn't care because you know WHO ELSE didn't care? Silk Specter. Meanwhile Rorschach was shown to routinely capture if not outright kill rapists & child-molesters.
>>204791895>He’s as dumb as a bag of bricks.>Guy that goes around solving crimes with zero government or corporate backing, outsmarting & capturing criminals AND avoiding capture by the PoliceYeah, sure. OK.
>>204783957This idiot would rather have Nazis, that he despises supposedly, care about his work than no one knowing who he is. All artists are attention whores. That's all they believe in.
>>204784038Rorschach basically doesn't care about Comedian being a murderous rapist because Comedian is one of the "heros"
>>204785488Rorschach had a heart of gold underneath the rough exterior. Hence why Dr. Manhattan hesitated to kill him.
>>204785080>But at the same time he's the only character in the series that continuously tries to act morally upright and have a sort of compass.The other character that comes close is Ozy. He does kill millions, but it's to save billions.Everyone else just spends the entire early half of the movie complaining about how its hard for masked heros... or fucking off to mars because they are sad. Rorshack (and Ozy) are working throughout the entire movie to further their own personal morality, and never stop or hesitate when things get difficult or unpopular.
>>204785080But we are literally shown him mentally splitting from the person who supported Truman and had values outside of brutal sumarian style justice and honor. The kid who makes the mask isn’t the same person who is traumatized by the little girls death.
>>204792897But that's not true?Do you know anything about HOW the Nukes were used? The Strategy behind them? WHAT Nukes even are?
>>204794159Actually he says that he's not going to question a man's mistakes while in service of his country. Rorschach understands that The Comedian has done morally bad things, but also understands that he was working as an official of the government, during very complex situations.>>204785368I understood that Rorschach was doing the correct thing, even when I was attempting to be a bleeding-heart-liberal. Rorschach was speaking out against genocide, something that you leftists love to virtue signal about today. Strange how you actually have a double standard about genocide.
>>204794199>heart of goldI love Rorschach, but this is absolutely not true. He takes down bad people, never really helps good people.He's mostly dead inside.
>>204785368Bruh that was a can of beans that cost 50 cents in 1985.
Moore is the poster child for creators not understanding their own creations.
>>204794420>Helped myself to some of your food. Hope you don't mind.
>>204794376In a society so full of corruption, his time is better spent dealing with the problems, to stop them from getting worse. Over trying to help people improve things.
>>204783957Every time anyone tries to make follow-up content to Watchmen, it leads to the conclusion that Rorschach was right and Manhattan/Ozymandias were wrong.In Moore's defense, he didn't want anyone making follow-up content, and condemned the TV show and comic sequels.But the fact that nobody can imagine a continuation of events that doesn't lead to the conclusion "Rorschach was right" kind of implies he was probably right.
>>204794457And he didn't mind. So it wasn't stealing.
>>204794366>I understood that Rorschach was doing the correct thingIt's not the correct thing. He was laser-focused on punishing wrongdoing, but spilling the beans about the whole plot would have made things worse. Ozymandias is evil because he put his fellow vigilantes in this terrible predicament while at the same time killing millions of people. He practically rejoices in it.The comic couldn't beat you over the head any more than it did about Ozymandias being the villain.
>>204794376Relative to the others, he did. Silk Spectre was a waste of time, Dr. Manhattan's storyline was tiresome and Nite Owl was just a spineless coward who accepted with no fuss (at least in the graphic novel) that Ozymandias did what he did. I'd wager that the whole final act is much better in the film. Ozymandias not gloating, Dan standing up to him and the plan being to use Dr. Manhattan's power as a weapon instead of the squid.
>>204794447He understands perfectly, and he doesn't care.
>>204794482He was right. No question. The only retort morons have is that he had some unsightly superficial behavioural problems and extreme view points on pointless things but at the crux of it, he was right. It's a shame Joker 2's failure has ended any chance of another DC Black label film because a Rorschach film in the same vein (low-budget, 70's-set, auteur-minded) would be the bee's knees.
>>204794159well yes. Femoids deserve no right, especially when they are whore like the first silk spectre. Bitch was asking for it.
>>204794515>helping cover up mass murder is better than exposing mass murderHet out of here with your utilitarianism, Ozy.>The comic couldn't beat you over the head any more than it did about Ozymandias being the villain.Right, and Rorschach was opposed to him, and thus we see him as the hero, even if he's flawed in his own right.
>>204786967The US and allies (justifiably) conducted hundreds of air raids over Japan killing up to a million people not including the nuclear strikes. Because they were at war - with an actual enemy that had actual strategic targets (not a made up squid)
>>204794623It was funny to me how the first Silk Spectre only started appreciating how men viewed her once she got old and nobody gave a shit about her anymore. Happens to all of these harlots.
>>204794545Silk Spectre II and Nite Owl II rescue people from a burning building in the comic and spring Rorschach out of prison. Nite Owl II goes along with Rorschach on his chase. They helped people more than Rorschach did.Rorschach is mainly concerned with punishing evil. That's not what having a heart of gold is.>I'd wager that the whole final act is much better in the film. You'd lose that wager. Manhattan being the perpetrator would lead to a call for reparations from the US by the rest of the world. The US would be fucked in that scenario.
>>204794515>dude just lie about everything to keep the peaceThat’s how we ended up in the situation we’re in now
>>204794159The Comedian was based and had a mustache. Rightoids are terrified of saying they like him because they don't want to admit chicks dig rape
>>204794563He absolutely does not understand Rorschach,. And he's been throwing temper tantrums about it for decades.
>>204784582>>204784702More than that, when the author captures something of his zeitgeist, he also captures the shadows that it casts. When Moore tries to show how Rorshach is bad for being a moral absolutist, he inadvertent must give the character absolute morals.Another nice example of this is in The Last Jedi, when Laura Dern is shown as a badass girlboss who gets to tell the hotshot ace pilot to sit down and do as he's told, it inadvertently shows a feminized authority acting to squash the masculine drive for action and heroism, something a lot of young men relate to today.
>>204794159All of it was done in the act of war and Blake had a child with Silk Spectre after the attempted rape. She wanted him, anyway. You're an idiot who hasn't read the story. Stop existing.
>>204794607>superficial behavioural problemsHis problems ran very deep. This is a character who could never know happiness or warmth. He hated crowds, hated being around women, had a terrible childhood, adolescence, and adulthood. His entire life, inside and out, was abysmal. Almost pure anguish. The only thing he had going for him was his crusade.>>204794627>>204794812You're not looking at the big picture. You're concerned with punishing one (1) guy for a beyond horrible act he committed. The consequences of punishing him will lead to more death and will not bring the dead back. The world will be worse off for knowing this truth.
>>204784819Moore's a commie faggot who dreams of having power so he can find convoluted justifications for committing mass murder
>>204783957I've been saying Moore wrote him like that for this reason for damn near a decade, and every time retards screech at me "YOU DIDN'T GET IT!"Glad people are waking up to the stupidity of Moore.>it does make you wonder what the point of doing it wasWell for a normal person, it would have been to tell a good story. For you, Moore, it was to try and shill your retarded anarcho-communist bullshit.
>>204794828He absolutely does. He's one of those writers that gets inside the character's mind when he writes them. Rorschach's thoughts were Moore's thoughts at the time of writing. He probably felt depressed writing him, so he sees people saying he was hecking badass as silly fanboys.
>>204795040>hated being around womenThis is a very weird thing to pin on him and it poisons everything you say after and before. Most men hate being around women. If they are around women, it's for the express goal of sleeping with them. Men and women are not compatible people beyond family making and surface-level relationships. The only thing you base this is on is him being disgusted at street whores and it is an idiotic suggestion that it's morally wrong to find those people disgusting. The rest of your points weren't articulated very well and aren't rooted in the canon. Rorschach wasn't a black hole of misery. He still felt affection and cared for Nite Owl and apologized when Dan brought up those same points you did and by doing that, he showed that it wasn't true. That he's not a lost cause and is much more compassionate and understanding of his faults than you make him out to be. He's a layered character and a great piece of writing. Moore got old and senile and renounced him for poultry political sentiment.
>>204795040>You're not looking at the big pictureYou said that it was very clear that the comic was saying that Ozy is the villain. Yet here you are, saying that he's right.So I will say it again.Get out of here with your utilitarianism, Ozy.The correct action was to never commit a genocide. Ozy made the mistake, don't try to Dr Manhattan your way out of this, by saying "what's done is done", to kill your morality(Rorschach).Dr Manhattan made it very clear that "Nothing ever ends". Meaning Ozy didn't actually save the world. So he genocided an entire city, and still failed.Rorschach was, is, and always will be right.
>>204795182No, he said Rorschach was "realistic" Batman. Moore's a pedo communist. He was quite certain that people wouldn't like Rorschach.
>>204783957the problem with Rorschach is that he contains too much of The Shadow's creative essence within him thanks to Moore being a MASSIVE fanboy of the formerit doesn't really matter that Moore changed his mind about Rorschach thanks to encountering morons who mistook him to be a typical edgy hero because even if Moore will NEVER admit it, he too was one of those morons>>204785950pretty much. Rorschach (before Moore changed his opinion), just like V, is really just Moore's personal fantasy of dressing up like The Shadow and attacking people he doesn't like
>>204794823He was played by Jeffrey Dean Morgan and as such is automatically the most based character.
>>204795213Most men would rather not be around women but still want to fuck them, unless they're faggots. Rorschach hated it absolutely. Didn't want to sleep with them either. Hated their clothes, and even their essence. It's all there in the comic. There's a panel in which he has to work in a dress shop, and he looks horrified. I'm not saying it's morally wrong to find women repugnant, I'm saying it's unhealthy and part of his suffering.That apology to Dan can be interpreted in different ways. You could say he was expressing feelings of friendship, or was doing it out of obligation, or was doing it as a means to an end, to calm Dan down and get to the next step. I do think he is a lost cause, but he's not a bad person. He just has lots of deeply-rooted problems that he can't shake because he was dealt a bad hand.Rorschach is a great character, one of my favorites. Moore is so sick of Watchmen by this point and I understand completely, regardless of what politics he subscribes to these days.>>204795378>Yet here you are, saying that he's right.Never said that. He's explicitly wrong.>The correct action was to never commit a genocide.Obviously. The problem is, what's done is done. There's no way around it. Ozymandias fucked it up.To forcefully reveal the truth is committing more mass murder. Is that the right thing to do? Are you willing to kill everyone else to maintain your own morality? To let it be and have Ozymandias continue to pull strings will eventually lead to the same result. I repeat: Ozymandias fucked it up.
>>204795826Rorschach/Walter Kovacs is comprised of: The Question, Mr. A, Steve Ditko, Alan Moore, The Shadow, Batman, Herbie Popnecker, Travis Bickle, Max Rockatansky, David Berkowitz, Stony Stevenson, and possibly others.
>>204795859>Never said that. He's explicitly wrong.By willingly going along with it, knowing full well that "Nothing ever ends", is implicitly agreeing with Ozy.>To forcefully reveal the truth is committing more mass murder.Nothing.Ever.Ends.The truth will be revealed. It's genociding a city, to result in even worse conditions later. You think that other countries will say "Oh, Ozy worked on his own" or do you think that they're going to say "Ozy is an American"? If you don't think it's the second, then you're retarded. Ozy made things worse, not better.Stop ignoring that "Nothing ever ends", to justify genocide.>Is that the right thing to do?Always be first. You get to control the narrative, instead of people/countries making accusations. If you bring the truth out, then you can damage control the result. If you let it be exposed by someone else, then someone else has control, and they might be selective about what they tell, creating a different narrative that's not true.>Are you willing to kill everyone else to maintain your own morality?Unsubstantiated assumption about what will happen upon exposing the truth. If a good person exposes the full truth, then your fear mongering utilitarianism isn't fact.>I repeat: Ozymandias fucked it up.Then stop siding with the villain, psycho.
>>204794116>Goes into a random bar >”Everytime I get an answer I don’t like. I break a finger on this guys hand” >”Holy shit you fucking lunatic *tells him whatever the fuck he wants to hear*>”K, bye.”Wow, such a genius :0
>>204796205>see him get results>seethe anywaysChad: Yes.
>>204786967>Muh Hiroshima and Nagasaki.Why did Moore think that Rorschach was a hypocrite for supporting Truman a-bombing Japan but balks at Ozy killing millions in New York?Not only was Imperial Japan refusing to surrender and an invasion of the islands would have been a Pyhrric Victory at best, Truman never lied to the US bombing Japan and accepted reponsibility for it.Ozy killed everyone who helped him created the psychic giant squid monster to hide his involvement and forced the heroes (except Rorschach) to hide the truth or World War III would happen.
>>204784038Because they aren't normal.
Rorschach was right about everything, isn't a hypocrite, and moorefags are retarded and worship a retard who stumbled into his success. Check these
Snyderjeets really hate moore kek
>>204796561Snyder is more of a retard than Moore.
>>204784439>I am smarter than you, the postShame you couldn’t work in something about media literacy. Mind you, when things like Rings of Power or The Boys get radically changed from the source material, fags like you are the first ones to yap about ‘death of the author’. If it wasn’t for corrupt principles you’d have no principles at all.
>>204784819>200+ IQ>Says “just me and the world” not “just myself and the world”Characters are only as smart as the person writing them.
>>204785080>he's a hypocriteIn what way?>is heavily myopic and blinded by his own ideologyIn what way?
>>204787052No but 100% of the people arguing about him online are.
>>204796152>Always be first. You get to control the narrative, instead of people/countries making accusations. If you bring the truth out, then you can damage control the result. Do you think Rorschach has this kind of power?>If you let it be exposed by someone else, then someone else has control, and they might be selective about what they tell, creating a different narrative that's not true.Let's say that a good person should spin the truth before someone else does. Implying this good person has good intentions and presents an incredibly strong case, can this person actually prevent the worst from happening? Can negative spin/lies just as easily destroy the effect of the positive spin that good person presented? This is gambling with the fate of the world, like Ozymandias did.>Unsubstantiated assumption about what will happen upon exposing the truth. If a good person exposes the full truth, then your fear mongering utilitarianism isn't fact.It's exactly what was about to happen. It's not unsubstantiated.Fear mongering is what it would be if the danger wasn't actually imminent. The comic shows you that it is.It wouldn't take much to make the war go hot.Ozymandias forced everyone's hand. The bad guy won. Rorschach was admirable in that moment because he wasn't swayed, but he made a choice to try and unravel the whole thing at the risk of causing more death and destruction. >Then stop siding with the villain, psycho.You don't have the freedom of choice. As a matter of fact, Ozymandias only let Rorschach go because he posed no real threat. His only hurdle was convincing Manhattan.
>>204784353This. Moore wrote R. like a samurai. How can he be surprised he's popular?
>>204796561>>204796638>the death of Rorshach is the death of caped heroes>"black and white" moralitySnyder: Nite Owl screams as not only his friend dies, but their entire purposeMoore: NO is to busy fucking Silk Spectre to care, because LE SEX IS BEAUTIFUL. Also, genocide cured his impotency. I guess.
>>204798449>a band of no power having chuckle fucks try to stop a god and guy with actual powers >end up being totally useless in the endI never read the comics but that movie was fucking retarded.
>>204784554>Worse than OzymandiasHe doesn't say that. It's more that no one in Watchmen is intended to be a clear cut hero type. They all have their flaws.The closest thing to a truly upright, upstanding hero is Hollis Mason/the first Nite Owl, and he's basically the butt of a cruel joke. Doctor Manhattan makes him obsolete as a hero, then in seconds makes him realize his retirement plan of owning a garage is obsolete too. He basically wasted his life, and it ends with him getting beat to death with the only thing he had to show for his time as a hero. No family, riends mostly dead or crazy, just a rich fanboy who visits him for company.
>>204785640Because no one ever tells him Ozy or Doc is literally them
>>204783957Alan Moore is a faggot pseudo intellectual
>>204783957Tom King’s attempt to rehabilitate the concept into a liberal avenger was also hilariously bad.
>>204784554Ozymandias is the most evil character in the story by far. He came up with a plan so heinous that the Comedian lost his shit. He killed almost everyone in the comic. It's additionally pointed out in the pirate story and Doc Manhattan's parting words. This idea that "Rorschach was meant to be worse than Ozymandias" is pure baseless nonsense. Rorschach has tons of fanboys, while Ozymandias does not. Moore was put off by the Rorschach fanboys and not by the nonexistent Ozy fanboys, so he only has words for the Rorschach fanboys. >>204798932>a band of no power having chuckle fucks try to stop a god and guy with actual powersThis doesn't describe the movie either.>>204799720Tom King is everything people accuse Moore of being as a writer.
>>204794879While I agree with you about the larger points, you miss a very, very significant detail when it comes to Holdo and Poe.The issue with Holdo isn't that she's a woman. It isn't that she's a feminist. It isn't that she's a senior ranking military official.The issue with Holdo is that she's a bad leader. While she had the right strategy (accepting the movie as an insular example of that strategy, and not comparing it to all other same-universe lore), and while she was perfectly within her rights and authority to bench anyone under her command - her leadership flaw was to not lay out the plan, to not explain the steps and the moving parts and her intentions.Before any military operation, the person in charge of it, whoever planned it, wrote out the strategy, whoever cleared it to go ahead has an operational and logistical NECESSITY to explain, in detail, every single step to all parties involved.You know why? Things go wrong. Maybe Intel wasn't as full, or complete, or thorough, or detailed as it needed to be. Maybe something on the other end changed. Maybe there was misinfo, or disinfo. Maybe there was some espionage or sabotage at play. Maybe the enemy figures out what you're doing. Maybe the enemy was expecting something. Maybe your forces get separated. Maybe there was an accident. Maybe there was bystanders in the operational field. Maybe some unwitting third party was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe an act of god happened, like a storm or weather extremity. Maybe the opponent had scouts or technology to sense incoming combatants. Maybe there was resistance. Maybe your plan got leaked or stolen or anticipated. Maybe there's a shootout. Maybe some of your forces get captured or killed. Maybe you get to the wrong spot. Or the right spot and the thing or the target wasn't there. The fog of war fucks everything, and the worst thing to make a bad situation worse, is to have ill informed, or uninformed personnel.
>>204794879>>204800499Holdo didn't share the plan. At all. With anyone. She didn't take the time to reassure her inner circle, and she bitch-slapped her best soldier very publicly in the most humiliating way possible. She demoralised the people she most needed to be the most energized, and she didn't have the situational awareness both of herself and the likely reactions she'd get by acting the way she did.When you know your best man is a tad on the hot-headed side, you don't pussy whip him in front of his buddies. You take him aside after saying publicly that you're putting him on a super duper top secret extremely classified mission of galactic importance. The hot head calms down, switches to all business mode, his buddies think he's the shit and that pumps him up, his ego gets him invested, and then he's receptive to hearing something he otherwise would have hated hearing five minutes prior.The plan could have been "go to these remote coordinates and hold steady. The enemy uber ship is going to be here at such and such time. We need a picture or scan of it for Intel, only YOU can get in and sneak out because you're the best pilot we have. Everything is riding on the success of this mission."Sometimes you have to stroke the ego of your best people to keep them in line and point them in the right direction. Make their own narcissism their own undoing. Some low level manipulation goes with the job.But current year Disney can't do subtlety. It's all about overt, obvious, obnoxious girlbossing - so we get shit like "I'm your boss so do as I say" with kamikaze speed of light battering ram suicide runs.
>>204791790Made me lol
>>204800607>current year Disney can't do subtlety.Nobody seems to be able to do subtlety anymore.It's like, for modern writers, the idea of even one person reading the scene wrong is just too much to bear. If they'd done the scene your way, maybe some tard on twitter with three followers would claim that actually Poe was the badass leader the whole time (since he can't understand that Holdo was stroking his ego) and that apparently just cannot stand.Of course it just makes the problem 100 times worse when their attempt to assert beyond all doubt that Holdo is the leader just produces a situation where Poe is 100% correct to question her.
>>204795040Either one of us is way off, or I really misremembered the specifics of Rorschach not so much hating women as hating whores and degenerates. Regular women were fine, it was corner prostitutes that grossed him out.
>>204800499the problem is you see her as a person instead of as a woman. you sexist.
>>204800941I see bad writing for what it is. And the particularly disappointing part of the writing in NuWars is how and why it feels and seems so so so so so so important that the female characters ONLY have to always be completely perfect and completely honourable and perfectly skilled and perfectly admired and all have amazing friends and loyal companions and be surrounded by love and respect all the time and whenever something bad happens it isn't their fault, a man did something, they have trauma or tragedy without actually ever being hurt or damaged or seen suffering in any measurable way, and they always seem to just get stuff. Get skills, get abilities, get powers, get rank or influence, just because.It appears as though each female character with any kind of significant screen time or speaking role is the self-insert of each writer or writer-adjacent and we have to suffer them romanticising their own narcissisms. It's like watching their own headcanon fandom circlejerking itself in real time live action.While some or most of the male characters are some level retarded, they at least make some basic sort of sense to say what they say or do what they do.But the women? Jesus Christ. If every girl is a girlboss, who's the boss boss in a room of girlbosses? If every girl is perfect, which girl in a room of girls is the villain or the scapegoat?I hate their writers.
>>204796328Because Libshits literally DO NOT understand War, let alone understand Hiroshima & Nagasaki.They literally ONLY understand "White bad, West bad, America bad", etc. They will flip & contort literally everything else around that inviolate frame-work and do their best to make anything fit it.They see Hiroshima & Nagasaki and literally ALL they see is mean ol' White People oppressing muh innocent non-Whites. That's all. All other context & information is removed, and only allowed IF it supports that pre-established narrative.
>>204801749You now understand why the once golden goose is turning against Israel, Jews, and Zion, and instead preferring Palestine, Muslims and goyim.Jews are white when they need to be in the majority in order to blend in and assimilate and go under the cover of the masses until they need to be a unique and ethnic people sovereign to themselves that need world powers to pay for them and protect them.So we end up with the dark hoardes of non-Jews voting and spending and campaigning and protesting to boycott, divest from, and to sanction all of Israel, Judaism, Zionism, and plans for Greater Israel.The Jews jewed too fast, too hard, too soon, and the goyim Golem darkies are overthrowing them in the pop culture zeitgeist using their own Marxist 1800's tactics against them.
>>204795435No everything is according to keikaku. Moore is like the owner that leaves his steak in front of his dog knowing full well that it'd get eaten just so he can call the dog a BAD BOY
>>204784819You don't get it, one is a sexy metrosexual that kills billions, the other is a le short ugly chud with a whore mother so he's automatically wrong.
>>204796328>refusing to surrender
>>204786967Don't even go there broThey will never ever see it the way the entire world saw it: as an act of terrorism.When you kill 80 thousand civilians to kill 150 soldiers it's really really hard to see it as anything else than a terrorist attackUnless you are an usastatan
>>204802846>the way the entire world saw it: as an act of terrorism.Weird how not only is that not the official stance of pretty much any country that that I even know of or consequently matters, but there isn't a single actual Historian that actually agrees with your simpleton viewpoint.But I guess it's some brown anti-American third-worlder incel on 4chan who knows better than ALL of them, right?
>>204802896>less than 100 years old even>"History"You are on the crest of power and "history" just follow suit.Real history would be hundreds of years from now on.Relative history would be not speaking from inside the ivory tower about what the ivory people have done that's "settled and undisputed and that's it!"Talk to me again when the usa is not the upper echelon of global control, and I'll talk to you the way we now talk about Britain
>>204796682Grammatically, you can use the former if it's the object of the verb. Also, I generally think it's fine in spoken English as long as the verb is conjugated correctly. "Me and my friends *was*" is obviously incorrect, whereas "were" would be fine when spoken.
>>204786475Antihero would be the closest I would think.
>>204803025>Well in hundreds of years things MIGHT be different!OK, sure, whatever, faggot. Not really a strong argument.
>>204802896>there isn't a single actual Historian that actually agrees with youwhat a profoundly vaxxed mode of thinking
>>204803428>Well in hundreds of years things MIGHT be different!I'm telling you the rest of the world already see things differently, but you are on the high horse exactly the same as a random teen britbong on the 18th centuryYou have only lived your life inside usa when usa is the world's dominant colonial power
>>204800499>>204800607>Disney can't do subtlety. It's all about overt, obvious, obnoxious girlbossingI don't disagree with anything you said, but this bit is the key part. Disney wanted a girlboss to have a girlboss moment and shut down a male hero. In doing so, they made a bad leader who displays no competency or skill in command and leadership, and acts without responsibility. And that's my point. They can't help but show all the problems with le strong wymyxn in their very portrayal of the character. And the same is true of Moore and Rorshach.
>>204800607>Make Poe an actual glory-chaser instead of the only person doing anythingReally does seem like that was the intent and it didn't land at all
>>204783957I only read the comic, but the death of Rorschach always stuck with me. Moore wrote some great shit like Swamp Thing and Miracle Man and isn't an insufferable faggot like Grant Morrison.
>>204783957It was always my understanding that Moore's dissatisfaction with Watchmen movies/tv/punditry was that everyone always seemed to gloss over the nuanced politics, and his attempts to capture the "you had to be there" narrating.No Zoomer or Alpha will truly appreciate the hysteria and paranoia of the times during and after 9/11 with all the anthrax scares and bombings. Sure, they can reas about it and grasp it intellectually, but that doesn't mean they "get it".I think that's what Moore is always bitching about.
>>204783957>why didn’t fans like the nude blue guy or the chubby impotent guy ?
>>204796682why would you use a reflexive pronoun when the subject of the sentence isn't doing something to itself?
>>204786475Machiavellian/Realist
Pretty kino how Ditko sounds just like Rorschach or JLU questionhttps://youtube.com/watch?v=P8Y2-j2pMVk&pp=ygUSc3RldmUgZGl0a28gc3BlYWtz
>>204805475>watchmen>anything to do with 9/11you know this shit came out in the 80's, right?
>>204783975Same thing happened with The Wire. Rightoids claim it supports their worldview, same with Watchmen. It's not a failure as a writer to flesh out a world so realistically that people claim it supports their biases. If he Joker 2'd Rorshach at the end or did some equally heavy handed plot twist to make sure no chuds like him you'd claim he's an awful writer too. So should the comic just be an overt Marxist parable? No because you'd cry about that too. In short, kill yourself, cuckold.
>>204784059>>204784284Yeah every second poster on here who claims they're a pedophile is based though
>>204806106literally not one person on the right has ever said The Wire supports their worldview
>>204806072Jesus Christ. The two points are only connected by the theme that "you had to be there" to *reeeeeally* "get it".It's a combination of being a product of its time, influences of the day, the culture at the moment, the general consensus of the populace, and all the little bits and pieces surrounding the two. Being a person that went through those times and had first hand experiences around those times are what make any cultural productions of the time more relevant or felt or understood more deeply by the people during those things.I never said the one was about the other or that the one is a product of the other.
>>204783957>character who never compromises his moral standards>actually fights crime>tragic backstory that informs his present mindset>opposes nuking a city for some harebrained scheme>will happily die rather than compromise his moralsit truly is a mystery why people like him
>>204783957Moore's historical commentary in "Watchmen" is pseudointellectual drivel.
>>204806130Here's 3.
>>204783957>one guy to call out the bullshit of murdering millions to have a temporary armistace >one guy who isn't a fag, a baby murderer, a roastie, or an aloof dispationate god>one guy who actually sticks to his convictionsI'm not even a right winger and Rorschact is easily the most likeable. I guess I'm not a peackocking mystic faggot though
>>204806106All this impotent rage and projection is delicious. Keep going.
