Movies that explore this theme
>>206065690batman
>>206065690Rope
Because laws still exist you faggot.
>>206066092But why?
>>206066125Because people agree on subjective morality
>>206065690i would literally just tell you that you can if you want
>>206066092>>206066186Cops are not God and they can be surpassed, bribed, overwhelmed, pressured, etc. People don't agree on subjective morality, thats why wars happen to assert one moral/economic system over the other
>>206065690Is implies ought, that's why.
>>206066125You know you can have a civilize society without religion right? People who think the rise of western civilization was the result of Christianity are wrong. Shitholes like israel and iran are still shitholes because they have been fighting religious wars since their inception.
>>206066482You don’t need everyone to agree, just most people. Those people will pass laws and a majority of the dissenters will fall in line for fear of persecution, the rest are just the criminals we have now in society. The religious don’t agree amongst themselves either, hence all the non secular wars. >>206065690I don’t want you to snap my neck because I don’t want to die. You don’t want to snap my neck because you would feel bad for causing harm to another fellow human and will most likely be found out through investigation and sent to prison.
>>206066712You live in the first world and asume everywhere is like it.I believe fron what I've seen there is indeed God, and truth, and good and evil, and that those who go against it are wrong, and thag man is incapable of being just. By saying good and evil are brought by agreement you concede that they don't exist in our real, physical world. That morality is as real as batman or superman, existing only where they are depicted, or in this case, enforced. But when wrong is done it is wrong wether or not it is punished, wether or not a billion people say it is right, wether or not anyone sees it
>>206066482>Cops are not God and they can be surpassed, bribed, overwhelmed, pressured, etcThat's why you should put institutions in place to avoid corruption. Also priests can be corrupted too
>>206066482You need to learn what moving the goalposts and nonsequitur mean. Maybe just learn to have coherent thoughts for a start
>>206067176Did i at any point argue that priests are always right?
>>206066938>You live in the first world and asume everywhere is like it.How’d you come to that conclusion? Those non first world countries are heavily religious btw, so not sure what point you’re trying to make. Your picture isn’t that of a secular society.>when wrong is done it is wrong wether or not it is punished, wether or not a billion people say it is right, wether or not anyone sees it“Wrong is wrong” is circular reasoning. We all agree “wrong” is “wrong”, but we don’t all agree on what “wrong” is. Good and bad IS subjective. That doesn’t mean it can’t have a consensus. You just want these things to be backed by the highest of all authority, but we can’t even all agree on what that authority is, so you’ve got your work cut out for you. Convince the world that your god is real, now convince the world that your god is the one true god, now convince the world that your interpretation of this one true god is the right one, now convince the world to obey your one true gods commands of what is good and bad. While you’re doing all that, just hope that no one else with a different god or a different interpretation is doing the same.
>>206067279Islam and Judaism are not true because they preach that human beings are good by nature and especially Islam does not explain where other religions come from if the innate state of the human being is Islam.Buddhism is not true because existence is not just suffering, and the proclaimed detachment from desire they claim is akin to their buddha's omnipotence can be achieved through a frontal lobotomy, yet autists and psycopaths are in no way more powerfull or wise, nor speak of the nirvana they claim is universal.Atheism is not true because we exist in a universe that follows logical, unchanging laws and not chaotic ones that may be altered. If there were no God holding them in place all would desintegrate into incoherence.Hinduism (and by extension all types of polytheism) is not true because there are no "regions" of the cosmos that follow different physical laws, so there must be one consciousness, one God keeping a single reality in place.Now you only have to choose what denomination of Christianity is true upon the coherence of their theology
>>206065690Christians morality everyone
oh look it's another christian who thinks true morality doesn't exist without god. these are always kind of funny because when you say these things it speaks of your ill character when you can't fathom why/how people would do good without the threat of eternal damnation.
>>206067345Sounds like you can’t even get through the >convince the world that your god is realportion.
If the only thing keeping a man decent is the expectation of a divine reward, then that man is a piece of shit.Ive never understood why christcucks try to make this argument. Its just wholly admitting that you are morally bankrupt.
>>206066092Most murders are unsolved and will never be solved.
>>206067602I may not be good at expressing this;Why, when i drop a rock, it fall every single time? Why do the laws of physics remain constant, everywhere, at all times? If we agree that they do, indeed, remain constant, why do they remain constant, and why are they impossible to break? Why wasn't there a time where the laws of physics worked differently, if they exist "just cause"? What keeps them in place, right now? Why cant i become a floating soap bubble? Why, when you close your eyes, what is in front of you remains?
>>206067230you need to learn how to suck dick better, your dad is cranky
>>206067715So your answer is to just call everyone who doesn't follow laws morally bankrupt, and thats it? You call people mean names and then expect them to just not do things because that's what you dont like?
>>206067878Lol you retard
>>206067825Youre asking why a counter factual reality doesnt exist instead of the one we have. Its a valid question to ask if the speed of light in a vacuum needs to be what is it (and many physicists do postulate this). But to ask why it doesnt change moment to moment is a counterfactual.
>>206067715>>206067536Furthermore, anyone who makes these questions at all is just evil and wrong? You sound like the kind of people who call someone a fascist, that they are wrong, and that's it. Or in 4chan, you call x thing "niggerbabble" or "jewish trick" and just refuse to think about their questions at all. Is this the case, or do you have arguments like our friend here >>206067279>>206066712
>>206067935No, you seem to be confused. If your opinion is that all morality is purely transactional, and people will only behave in moral ways if they have something to gain or lose, then youre just a piece of shit. And I have no doubt a moral god if he were to exist would happily banish such people to hell. Hope youre not one of them!
>>206068002I may be dumb, but what does counterfactual mean in this case
>>206067345Wow, your argument sucks.>these religions aren’t true because they don’t make sense >atheism isn’t true because there has to be a god because existence exists >my religion must be true because it’s the only one left >oh and I’m going to ignore the other 3,000 religions because I know nothing about them >>206067825This isn’t an argument for your god, it’s an argument for Deism. And not a good one either. Our reality works the way it does because if it didn’t, we wouldn’t have a reality. There’s no other reality to compare ours to. We exist to witness our existence, but it says nothing about the origin of that existence, just that it is.I’d give you Deism if you want, but that’s a far cry from your god of the Bible.
>>206068106you're not evil or wrong you're just an incredibly silly person. if there was an intelligent creator you'd hope he has no interest in you because i'm almost certain he'd be closer to the devil than benevolent god.
>>206066938Humans are inherently good and evil. The people who wrote the Bible were smart enough to know this because they actually gave people a sense of truth, morality, and sacrifice and they were the first in line to create the concept of civilization. All of our western books and stories you read had all been influenced by the Bible but the ideas change over time. Im really not a believer in God but I think stories and the morals that comes with it can have a drastic influence on people. More than people expect.
>>206068109Allright, i am a piece of shit, i am going to hell. Then what is goodness, and who chooses it still?
>>206068235>what is goodnessA concept we created>who chooses itSociety
>>206067935>>206068235The reason I wouldn't rape you is that I'm not a rapist and not a faggot. The reason you wouldn't rape me is because you're afraid of cops and afraid by a being in the sky.
>>206068235See game theory, nash equilibrium, anything that deals with balancing of the needs of desires of multiple parties in a world with scarce resources.I am reminded of a quote in blood meridian, where the judge tells the man that morals do not exist, and they are merely the disenfranchisement of power from the strong, given to the weak. He believes it is anti darwinian and therefore counter to nature.
>>206068309Yet society changes from things being entirely wrong to being entirely accepted, proving its opinion is not the truth nor is it moving towards some vague idea of progress, nor is it carrying out some sort of scientific discovery. If we wedge on morality being consensus, then what i am speaking about is a physical morality, a separate thing from what you're describing, perhaps useful to call with a different name. If it is like you described, a set of actions-rewards, then we describe also a similar thing, but these actions-rewards are delivered either by God or society, over wich i trust God more than this society
>>206068228human morals and civilization predate the bible, and every other holy text.people acted out their moral beliefs long before there was written language, the bible was just a codified story version of things people were already doing and believing at that time.civilization comes first, with laws and rules that evolve naturally while people participate in it. the written version of a civilization's ideas only comes later, when people look back and want to preserve the things they already discovered and deemed good
>>206068309You could probably say it was either there in our bones or that it emerged organically, like how other species didn't sit down and think about it, but would still ostracize or kill one off who starts doing it to the others in the flock.
>>206065690They don't believe that, though, theists believe morality is subjective and changes with god's will, atheists attempt to attribute morality to concrete objective properties like actual bodily harm and physical intervention.
>>206068550>>206068588>>206068391Then there ARE objective things that are essential for a society's survival, wich i assume, prevent groups from wiping themselves out. I've feel like I've gone in a roundabout, it is wrong what I am saying? Insult me
>>206065690If anyone says this to you, you're obligated to rape them.
>>206068550You're describing something that doesn't exists, and are using an example old consensus (which you already show that you know was different from current consensus) as evidence that it's something different from consensus.
>>206067345Your understanding of Buddhism and the ‘laws’ of nature is very flawed.
>>206068550It’s fine that you trust your god over society. I’ve never said it wasn’t. Just that it doesn’t make your views any more legitimate to someone that doesn’t already share it. >call it a different nameObjective morality is what I’ve seen it called.>society changes from things being entirely wrong to being entirely acceptedYeah that can happen. But I’d argue that’s not generally what happens. Killing another human being has been consistently on the “wrong” side throughout human history. Even so, I already said that it won’t be everyone agreeing on right and wrong, just the majority. Dissenting views will always be present, and those views don’t fully go away and if the rules of society result in its own demise, the rules will get switched up, usually volunteered from the dissenters that bided their time. Your bible is being reinterpreted all the time based on current society, so it’s not immune to its influence. Doesn’t seem all that objective to me.
>>206067176Institutions are just collections of people and people are the things that can be corrupt, so why would more people = less corruption?Is that your Elon, thinking more bureaucracy can somehow make thing more efficient when bureaucracy is the largest contributor to inefficiency in the first place?
>>206067825>Why wasn't there a time where the laws of physics worked differently, if they exist "just cause"? What keeps them in place, right now?There literally was dude. In the early universe the fundamental forces had not split from each other yet, because things were too hot and dense for them to do so. The medium of spacetime wasn’t even transparent to light for its first 300,000 years of existence.
>>206068766what is good or beneficial for a civilizations survival entirely depends on the civilization itselfthis is why even hardcore christians ignore 95% of the bible because they fundamentally understand that putting people to death for working on a sunday is not workable anymore in the 21st century. so they cherry pick the topics that still have some wiggle room.the basic rules of not being hostile to your neighbor, staying faithful to your spouse and speaking the truth still apply, but that was never any groundbreaking stuff
>>206068765>changes with god's willNoNo, muslims, jews and christians agree that morality, or at least what is good and wrong is unchanging. Jews and muslims diverge from christians in that christians, from what I've read of Paul's epistles, believe it is impossible to be perfectly good and follow the law, and that because of original sin or simple imperfection man is always sinful. Whilst jews do not have so specific theology muslims believe man is not inheritor of sin and that all people are born muslim (that is, in the literal sense that muslim means "submitter to God") and misled from islam (submission). Both islam and Judaism furthermore believe that eternal, codified laws should run society, the Pentateuch and Shariah respectively, as opposed to christians who have no specific goverment to be ruled by. Although I've might be generalizing all muslims with wahhabists
>>206068765No one has commented on this post but it hits the nail on the head. Not even Christians believe in objective morality.
>>206065690If the only thing stopping you from murdering is your imaginary friend, you're evil.
>>206068550There is no such thing as The Truth with a capital T outside of the pure nature of our physical existence. Everything else is inherently subjective.
>>206068766Consider two different societies at war. Fighting for one side protects it and harms the other. Getting together and create world peace might be better than both options, but otherwise protecting the one you're in (harming the other) is preferable to doing the opposite. But what is the opposite is decided on within which of those invisible boundaries you're within. Not very absolute at all.
This sort of dumb anti-nihilist reasoning (you inevitably got from Smiling Slop) is retarded. What you really need to do is point out to atheist is how all the moral arguments they have against the atrocities of "Christian" followers throughout history is to point out how their whole morality and basis of judgement originates from Christianity. Of course, this is very inconvenient for the fake followers of 20th century "German Christianity" (a specific ideological revision of the faith not to be confused with general Protestantism of the 16th century), who refuse to acknowledge how white Christian missionaries in Africa were truly the first "social justice warriors" in standing against the brutal savage methods of Belgian Congo authorities.
>>206068965Here >>206068952It is not that christians believe morality changes, it is that theres no shariah Pentateuch for christians that must be how theyre governed. If you take Jesus' words there's how a christian ought-to be and ought-to live but the law, that is the Pentateuch, is deemed damnation because no man is sinless enough to live such and even then there's hypocrisy and other things tacked onto it that Jesus directly challenged the pharisees over
>>206068952If christian morality is objective, why can't you all agree on what it is? Maybe hash that out among yourselves first. And I'm not just talking about jews and muslims. I'm talking about other denominations of christianity. You fuckers have to build 4 churches right next to each other because you disagree with the other 3.
>>206069050I am not white. I dont care what race followed each religion, if its true its true. I've also never seen smiling friends because i dont have an amazon prime account
>>206068952>what is good and wrong is unchanging.No they don't, the abrahamic holy books went from eye for an eye to love your neighbor to jihad as the basis of their morality.
>>206069050>whole morality and basis of judgement originates from ChristianityDamn, we almost had a good thread before the retard showed up. Hey, bud. Got a source for that wild claim?
>>206068774>moral objectivists are all gay rapists waiting for an excuse to gay rape
>>206068235You choose what's good. The truth comes from within yourself. There is no objective truth. There is no grand cosmic purpose. We are alone in this absurd universe with no one watching over us. You can approach this perspective with despair or you can embrace the absurd freedom of being able to do literally anything you want. Your existence is your own, you can make your experiences be whatever you want them to be. The grand cosmic purpose is whatever you decide. Just remember, actions have consequences. Cooperation wins in the long run. Animals that cooperate with each other have massive survival advantages. When you apply this principle to incredibly intelligent creatures like humans, you get these complicated moral systems with the goal of ensuring the groups maximum benefit and maximum survival. Power is the source of large scale morality. If you wish to enforce your standard of morality you need power to do so.
>>206069138Let's hear the pre-Christian codes of law that correspond exactly to the Atheist humanist's criticisms of Christianity. I'll wait.
>>206069050>originates from Christianity.No, it originates from at least Hamurabi's code, maybe some legal code that even predated that and was lost to time.
>>206069068Christians do believe morality changes. Gods will is an enigma but is somehow always right, even when he kills or commands others to kill. Murder, rape, theft, lying. All supposedly objectively wrong things are all permissible under the right cope.
>>206067345>Buddhism is not true because existence is not just suffering,Name one thing about existence that isn't fated to end in loss and suffering.
>be me>realize getting stabbed doesn't feel good>this guy over there notices too>we agree to create a small society where we won't stab each other>we welcome others to our society if they agree not stab too, else they'll get punished by our society>not stabbing each other allows us to thrive and be happy WTF HOW COULD THIS BE POSSIBLE WITHOUT THE GOD OF JEWS?????
>>206069068If God's morality is objective and unchanging, but there's no good way to know what it actually is, of what use is it?>I claim the moral high ground because my god hypothetically has an objective morality he hasn't let us in on.
>>206069210See>>206069191
>>206069317I have an image for this one.
>>206067345>If there were no God holding them in place all would desintegrate into incoherence.No, nothing, the additive element, is what keeps things stable. x=x+0 is why values don't immediately disintegrate into decoherence from moment to moment for all x.
>>206067345>there are no "regions" of the cosmos that follow different physical laws,So you would experience the exact same physical sensation being inside the sun vs being on earth vs being in the vacuum of space vs being inside a black hole?
>>206069095Jewish schisms center around the authority of the Torah or Talmud. Islamic schisms are over the succesion of Muhammad and all it's schools of thought after the end of Mutazilism agree that the Quran is to be taken literally. I don't think anyone considers druze, alawites, bathists, etc Muslims beyond being culturally in the islamic sphere, same goes for christianity and Mormonism, gnosticism, scientology, and others. There is the split between Orthodox nicene christianity and other forms of trinitarians, and more importantly, the one between protestant and catholic Christianity. And these are not over some idea of what is good and what is evil but over the concept of salvation, free will, saints, the use of icons and the authority of the papacy. I think its a matter to read and see upon its coherence not just descart alltogether. Who knows, maybe i should read the Quran one day
>>206069191Yeah, sure. After this I’d like for the source I asked for. And you need to prove that it all gave credit to Christianity. >Code of Hammurabi (circa 1754 BCE): This Babylonian code of law, inscribed on a stele, is one of the earliest known sets of written laws. It included rules about property, trade, family, and crime, with the principle of “an eye for an eye” as a guiding concept of justice.>Sumerian Laws: Earlier than Hammurabi, the Sumerians also had legal codes, such as the Laws of Ur-Nammu (circa 2100 BCE), which emphasized fines and compensation over physical punishment.>Ancient Egyptians followed the concept of Ma’at, which represented truth, justice, and cosmic order. Morality was tied to pleasing the gods and ensuring harmony. The “Negative Confession” in the Book of the Dead outlined moral behaviors (e.g., “I have not stolen” or “I have not committed murder”).>Philosophers like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle developed ethical systems based on reason, virtue, and the good life. >Ancient Indian texts like the Vedas and Upanishads provided moral guidelines, emphasizing duty (dharma), righteousness, and karma. The Laws of Manu (circa 200 BCE–200 CE) were a detailed codification of social and moral rules.>Confucius (551–479 BCE) taught moral principles focused on filial piety, respect for tradition, and the cultivation of virtue. His teachings emphasized harmony in relationships, justice, and ethical governance.>Zoroastrianism, one of the world’s oldest religions (circa 1000 BCE), emphasized the duality of good and evil. Its moral framework encouraged individuals to choose good thoughts, good words, and good deeds to support truth (asha).>The Torah provided a moral and legal framework for ancient Israelite society, influencing later Christian and Islamic moral codes.>Roman Law
>>206069393Mathematical philosophy is retarded and is the result of people unable to accept uncertainty and chaos. This idea that there HAS to be logic and reason everywhere betrays their fear.
>>206069502You did not provide any specific counter-argument, you merely listed off a bunch of ancient philosophers. Please provide excerpts from this scattershotted list how exactly this correlates to modern Atheist humanism.
>>206069361No True Scotsman. No argument will ever be exactly enough for you plus you moved the goalposts from Christians being the origin of atheist morality to atheists only criticize christian morality which is not even true, you are a just biased from being a low level low iq christian whose retarded talking points are constantly being debunked.
>>206066092there are still tribes in burma that kill the first born child if it's a girl
>>206069317The hilarious thing is that this isnt even unique to humans. In nature, some animals are solitary and will fight and kill their own species, and there are others that form groups where resources are shared and they protect one another. Did they need the bible to figure this out?
>>206067345>If there were no God holding them in place all would desintegrate into incoherence.And you know this because you were transported here from a universe that fell into chaos without a God? Or are you just making things up?
>>206069518>Mathematical philosophy is retardedThen you should have replied to the retard who reference integration and coherence as their justification for saying morality depends on gods.
>>206069449I’m not that guy, but your response makes no sense. Sure you’d experience different physical sensations, but what you experience in all 4 locations is still governed by the same set of physical laws.
>>206069383I have a vested interest in not living in a society where people stab each other. Your strawman argument presupposes that not only man is gratuitously evil, he's also too retarded to understand the behavior he takes part in hurts himself. When I engage in the free market rather than in brigandry, it's because it's the best system for me, not because of the Holy Spirit.Feel free to continue collecting images you find amusing, but please refrain from using them to reply to my posts.
>>206069633You recite a fallacy and admit your defeat. Every day of every week of every year, rhetoric defeats your supposed "fact." Until "fact" defeats rhetoric, it is utterly useless.
>>206069191>>206069600Why. What point do you think that would make?
>>206069600You need to describe your exact complain first and what you even mean by modern atheist humanism morality which just seems like buzzwords you don't understand.
>>206069600It doesn’t have to, and I’m not sure why you think it does.
>>206069731I was actually agreeing with you, lol.The image is meant to exemplify how ridiculous it would be to have a society without such rules about stabbing.
I arrive proud, travel angry, leave confused. This thread was a waste of time
>>206069769Actually, I don't. You are stuck in this over-intellectualized position that will never reach man.
>>206065690Atheists can only claim that murder is bad in a utilitarian senseNever in an actual moral senseThis is a huge part of why i grew out of atheism
>>206069600>Please provide-No I’m good. Your original post was >whole morality and basis of judgement originates from ChristianityWhich was called out for being a retarded and tired statement. I asked for source for that claim and you provided none and then asked me to provide proof of pre-Christian code of ethics. I did that. You haven’t done anything. You suck at this and should stop making arguments you can’t back up.
Jesus the Liar is burning in a lake of shit by the way, you will never be part of the chosen people, you are literal cattle.
>>206069903I change my form and confound you. You do not understand the human mind and are stuck in the world of autism.
>>206069669>Did they need the bible to figure this out?no but if you want to anthropomorphize animals they also rape each other to procreate so probably not the best example
>>206069600>you merely listed off a bunch of ancient philosophersSo you didn’t bother reading the post that BTFO your lame argument. Only a few of the lines were philosophers.
>>206069846Then you are just saying nonsense and you will only ever reach retards.
>>206069846People who believe that no form of objectivity exists in morality should have no issue proving it in the following experimentStep 1: turn on your stoveStep 2. Stick your hand over the flameIf you are unable to hold your hand in the flame indefinitely, congratulation! You have experienced suffering. Your act of pulling your hand away from the flame is a concession that the lack of sufferring is preferable to sufferring. We can expand this principle this from the individual to the group. Is it better to have a society where everybody has to have their hands burnt, or is sufferring something that should be mitigated?
>>206069976There is no need to anthropomorphize them, much of the same motivations and feelings we humans have also exist naturally in other animals as well, to varying degrees. One does not need to view the love between members of a Gorilla tribe, for example, as an anthropomorphism.
>>206070121Winners spin nonsense confidently. That's life advice.
>>206069726Its not though, there are different laws for plasmas and solids and different scales and pressures, there is no universal theory of everything, you have to keep measuring and tweaking your future projections.
>>206069976>all or nothing fallacyAnd people flip eachother off in traffic, therefore our society has no morality
>>206069896Christian "morality" is just a collection of gut instincts and prejudices loosely supported by bronze age jewish mythology.I'd much rather go off of utility and critical thinking even if it doesn't have perfect answers for everything.
>>206069753No, I told you that you were using a couple of fallacies and gave the justification as to why and how you came to rely on those fallacies instead of using actual reasonable logic.
>>206069976humans rape each other so probably not the best example
>>206070252I didn't read any of that and thus don't acknowledge it. Do you get it now? Or are you still tuck in autism land?
>>206070282yeah and they go to jail for it moron
>>206069959Ok buddy retard
Why are /pol/tards obsessed with atheists and seething about them constantly while claiming the opposite is the case?
>>206070176You haven't won anything, though, you just gave up trying to think of ways to justify your self and your retarded arguments because you don't actually have to describe or explain yourself.
>>206070188You’re attributing our incomplete understanding and description of physical law to the nature of the universe itself, which is the incorrect thing to do. Different laws have varying degrees of influence in various places and scales, but all of them are present everywhere all of the time. Take our sun and move it to any part of empty vacuum in the universe, and it will still behave as it does where it currently is. The principle of uniformitarianism is fundamental to cosmology.
>>206070303I got it a long time ago when I pointed out you were just a retard babbling about nonsense who can't logically justify any of your claims.
>>206070172>much of the same motivations and feelings we humans have also exist naturally in other animals as well, to varying degreesthis is something a child thinks. animals have no ability to formulate questions. they have no forethought or planning beyond a few days to weeks. their motivation is eat sleep and rape>>206070189if you flip me off in traffic i'll drop you like a sack of potatoes dickweed
>>206070316So it sounds like jail trumps god
>>206070316What point do you think you just made?
>>206070374I'm explaining to you how this shit works globally. Holy shit you're even dumber than I gave you credit for. Whatever.
>>206070363libtards lost an election and fucked off to their holes/pol/tards base their identity on being contrarian, but thanks to being mainstream lost a bit of the specialness it comes from being a poltard.
>>206065690How can objective christian morality be real if God isn't real?
>>206069976It was legal to rape slaves in most human civilizations that have existed up until a couple hundred years ago.
this is why the schizos will always defeat the autists
>>206070410>incomplete understanding and description of physical lawSo if your experience is that limited and your understanding is that incomplete, how can you reasonably claim that the same universal truths everywhere when your body could not even withstand being anywhere but some small infinitesimal area of the "universe" which you can't even if it is even one complete thing in the first place or just called the universe for semantic convenience?
THREAD CONSENSUS >Christian makes a half baked, retarded “claim”>gets BTFO so hard he starts babbling nonsense and trolling >everyone else agrees that their god sucks and morality doesn’t come from their outdated religion >Christian keeps seething, can’t form a comprehensive sentence
>>206070634Yep pretty much nailed it
>>206070433That’s why I said ‘to varying degrees’. Humans are nothing more than super advanced animals, and all of our cognition is just the base desires of animals iterated to a ridiculous degree of sophistication.>animals have no ability to formulate questions. they have no forethought or planning beyond a few days to weeks.This simply isn’t true. Without even getting into all the things animals like great apes, crows, and dolphins can do, take the various migrations that occur around the globe. Turtles swimming for months back to the beaches they were born on. You can call it instinct, which it is, but that’s still just a very basic form of what we do when we think about the future. They are not separate things, they exist at opposite ends of a unified scale of sophistication.
>>206070494They also believe Christianity is the only real religion and that everyone else is either a satanist or atheist by default for having any other view on religion. Everything else is just larping to them. Internet Christians are the new fedora tippers.
>>206070439morality is a fundamentally human trait derived from divine benificence and sustained through the grace of the eternal>>206070541and marry-your-rapist laws still exist in many islamic countries smart guy
>>206070441No, you said you don't have to explain anything >>206069846 when I gave you the chance >>206069769, you weren't even explaining anything >>206069191, you were trying to blame without cause while outright dismissing any historical or philosophical issues you don't personally approve of >>206069600.If you think you have actually tried to explain something, reference the posts and give a quick QRD of your "explanation" up until now.
>>206069753>ask for irrelevant thing>get's told it's irrelevant>*heh* "you lose"Show me a talking cat. Not "oh long johnson" like. One that reviews christian video games. And no fakery.
>>206070686T. Retard who believes morality stems from the promise of a reward for it
>>206070739>>206070742Look at these retards at their last rope demanding LE LOGIC. They don't get it, and they'll never get it. Winners know what I mean.
>>206070494I would restate it as:How can objective christian morality be true if God is being, not an object?
>>206070686Crazy how the grace of the eternal only started making slavery and the rape of slaves immoral in the past couple hundred years. Guess he realized he was wrong?
>>206070567I don’t even know what you’re asking later on in your post, add some more punctuation. The term ‘the universe’ simply means ‘all of physical existence’ nothing more. Also, nothing we’re talking about has anything to do with ‘universal truth’, it is simply a base assumption made by scientists that physical laws operate in the same way in all parts of the universe. If this assumption is not made then we can’t actually use physics to say anything about anything. Luckily, the assumption is actually backed up by a mountain of physical evidence in the form of all astronomical observations made to date.
>>206070666great apes are the closest to humans and still have no object permanence. they can't entertain the idea of a counterfactual. there is nothing in their brains or thinking that can envision a world without them. similar with dolphins. crows and turtles are actually retarded even by animal standards, so not sure why you brought them up. >>206070776>>206070821what reward did i imply? grace doesn't do or make anything. what do you think grace is?
>>206070562Because they are easily dismissed schizos who will just babble about nonsense while sitting in a pile of their own filthy shit screaming they won over and over while autists build the civilization around them?
>>206065690...so you are saying all Christians are psycopaths constantly in the verge of murdering people and only the fear of hell is stopping them?
>>206070864Weird how god wiped out countless species of hominids that would have had all of the things you prescribe as being exclusive to modern humans
>>206070815The point is that objective christian morality is predicated on the assumption that there's a God.Something that has never been proven.We shouldn't even be talking about this until christians can prove that prerequisite.
>>206070864*effortlessly btfos your argument*
>>206070898Yet another defeat of the autistic. They see "schizo" and cannot tell the difference between schizophrenic, schizoid, and schizotypal. They are almost pathetically predictable.
>>206070864>great apes are the closest to humans and still have no object permanence. they can't entertain the idea of a counterfactual. there is nothing in their brains or thinking that can envision a world without them. similar with dolphins.None of this is relevant to my point. Sure they’re not as smart as us and I never claimed they were. But they do have some of the same emotions and driving forces behind their actions that we do. They want to be safe, they want to eat food, they like being around their family. All human emotions and motivations are built on top of these base desires. All of our lofty philosophizing could not exist without them. It’s in this way we are similar, in that animals are simply us before our evolution embarked on the positive feedback loop of developing our brains.
>>206069518Can you think of another reason why it's so difficult for you to assume that rules wouldn't change rather than the opposite? Because it has to be one of the two.
>>206068898>Your bible is being reinterpreted all the time based on current societyVerses/morals are typically ignored rather than reinterpreted.>>206069040>There is no such thing as The Truth with a capital T>makes a Truth claim>>206068550You should look into the transcendental argument if you haven't already. Essentially you won't really ever 'win' arguing like you are, already believing in transcendentals. You have to cross examine someone else's worldview and point out the presupposed transcendentals that are necessary for what they believe/how they act.
>>206071220Rewrite this entire post in mathematical terms, faggot.
>>206070847>I don’t even know what you’re asking later on in your post, add some more punctuation.I skipped the word know.> the "universe" which you can't even know if it is even one complete thing in the first place or just called the universe for semantic convenience?> The term ‘the universe’ simply means ‘all of physical existence’ nothing moreOk and how many physical things exist?How can you know they all exist in one container called the universe if you can't actually count them or if you rely on non-material things like energy to measure them?>nothing we’re talking about has anything to do with ‘universal truth’What? Your base claim is literally that physics is the same truth everywhere in the universe, you are definitely trying to invoke universal truths.>it is simply a base assumption made by scientists Yes that is what I said, your claim that physics is universally the same everywhere is just something you have assumed, it isn't a necessary truth and we don't have the capacity to measure it.>If this assumption is not made then we can’t actually use physics to say anything about anythingYou can still say how your little area tends to operate, you just can't extrapolate it to the entire universe which again you can't even confirm is one singular thing or just a bunch of random things with random connections.>the assumption is actually backed up by a mountain of physical evidence in the form of all astronomical observations made to date.No its not, every time people put a new telescope in space, they come to very different conclusions, JWST is still disrupting many of those assumptions.
>>206070982god didn't do anything to any species of hominid>>206071109not getting your point. where can i find the species listed in your image?>>206071140>they do have some of the same emotionsanimals don't have emotions. you are projecting your own feelings onto them, which is why i brought up anthropomorphizing in the first place. we evolved past animals to be the sole owners of a mind that has consciousness and sense of self and both intrinsic and extrinsic existence. a crow pulling on a string to get a piece of meat is a non sequitur compared to this
>>206069959Do you have a non-retarded form to change to?
>>206071121I referenced every single one of those things, though: A)babbling nonsense, B)sitting alone in their own shit, C)screaming over and over again, you were the one too retarded to notice.
>>206071521All of those are applied to the autistic.
>>206071018>on the assumption that there's a God.Because there are gods, in their imagination.>never been proven.Proof:God is the most powerful thing imaginable.Something that is both real and imaginary is more powerful than something solely imaginary.God is definitely imaginary since it exists in fiction and people's arguments.It would be more powerful if it were real, therefore the most powerful thing imaginable must be real.
>>206065690>retards when they get arrested and imprisoned for the rest of their life for disobeying a society's morally subjective laws
>>206070686>morality is a fundamentally human trait derived from divine benificence and sustained through the grace of the eternalWell, then you failed. The point you actually made is that wolves can't build structures like jailhouses. Which is neither relevant to moral objectivity, nor do I disagree with it.
>>206071302x=x for all x!=0which means x-x=0 or x+(-x)=0Therefore x != -xSo something can either be x or -x, not both
>>206069896It's the same thing. Morals are the innate behaviors and rules that led to successful cultures. Every successful culture has moral rules and laws against murder because the cultures that didn't have those rules killed themselves off via rampant murder.
>>206071401First of all, energy is material and 100% equatable to matter. >Ok and how many physical things exist?How can you know they all exist in one container called the universe if you can't actually count them or if you rely on non-material things like energy to measure them?The definition of the universe precludes this, because it automatically expands to include every new thing which is discovered. >What? Your base claim is literally that physics is the same truth everywhere in the universe, you are definitely trying to invoke universal truths.It’s not ‘universal truth’ we don’t like to call it that because it implies we know these things with certainty. Nothing we know based on science is ever certain, there are only things which best conform to both observation and theory. >No it’s not, every time people put a new telescope in space, they come to very different conclusions, JWST is still disrupting many of those assumptions.Yes, which is why it’s so significant, every assumption JWST disrupts has implications for our understanding of the entire universe. Different conclusions are reached all of the time, but they all have implications for all of reality, and not just ‘the region of space within 100,000 lightyears of earth’ or something like that. If the ‘big bang’ is the way things happened, which a lot of evidence suggests, then all of spacetime was once at a singular ‘point’ for lack of a better word, and thus subjected to the same initial conditions. It makes absolutely no sense in this situation for different regions of the universe to operate differently.
>>206071612The part that only applied only to autists rather than schizos was the ability to build civilization around people babbling in their own shit and claiming wins over and over, learn to read.
>>206071452>animals don't have emotionsRetarded or trolling? This claim is horrendously false and no respectable biologist or philosopher would make such a statement
Give me the equations of x and -x
>>206072029Schizos inevitably overthrew these civilizations meaning they were a more perfect form of the autists. This is reality. You have been selected for pre-natal extermination thanks to our modern knowledge.
>>206071452>animals don't have emotions. you are projecting your own feelings onto them, which is why i brought up anthropomorphizing in the first place. we evolved past animals to be the sole owners of a mind that has consciousness and sense of self and both intrinsic and extrinsic existence. a crow pulling on a string to get a piece of meat is a non sequitur compared to thisA crow pulling a string to get a piece of meat is simply an extremely basic form of consciousness. It’s not separate from what we do, just a simple form of it. All the evolving that went into making our brains didn’t change our fundamental nature, but just made it extremely complicated. You say animals don’t have emotions, but many mammals very obviously experience fear and joy at the very least.
>>206071825you're just being fatuous. "go to jail" means more than "physically put a person into jail" in the context of my comment. rape is wrong. i think this. you (probably) think this. animals do not think this. but keep in mind i don't think animals are able to rape one another and which is why i said we shouldn't anthropomorphize them. animals can't rape or not-rape because the concept doesn't exist in the animal kingdom. nor does morality.>>206072057it's not false. emotions aren't biological so i'm not sure why a biologist would be relevant here. the only halfway-decent philosopher who would say animals have emotions is probably singer, and i don't respect him so i wouldn't call him respectable
>>206065690you won't because you're a bitch.
>>206071740>God is fake>therefore God is realThis has always been the most retarded proof ever.And I can easily imagine a fictional god more powerful than any god you could care to imagine. I just have to imagine it killing your god. Will you now start believing in Zog the God Destroyer simply because I imagined it killing Yahweh?
>>206072017>energy is material and 100% equatable to matter.No it isn't, energy is conserve, but matter isn't, matter is created and annihilated by energy.>The definition of the universe precludes thisWhich is why universe is a semantic assumption rather than an actual confirmed measurement and people try to drift to multiverses and metaverses to make similar semantic frameworks beyond the universe.> it implies we know these things with certainty.I accept your concession you aren't actually certain about these things you keep claiming you are certain about, its not the truth, its your wishful thinking.>but they all have implications for all of realityNope, based on your rhetorical slippage, you now can't know anything outside of your own context window, you have no possible ways to speak of any realities, you can only speak of your perspective observation.>Different conclusions are reached all of the timeI accept your concession, there is no single universal true conclusion that dictates all of reality, you don't know if physics is the same everywhere, you can only observe minor physical behaviors within in your sphere of influence.>all of spacetime was once at a singular ‘point’ for lack of a better word, and thus subjected to the same initial conditionsExcept of course dark energy and dark matter which makes up like 90% of it.
>>206072175Emotions HAVE to be biological because they are a function of our organism. Literally every single thing a human being ever does or thinks is fundamentally biochemical, biophysical, and electrochemical in nature.
>>206072143>Schizos inevitably overthrew these civilizationsNo they didn't, schizos inevitably got treated like witches and retards that were killed, lobotomized, and institutionalized beneath the shadows of society.
>>206067345>Atheism is not true because we exist in a universe that follows logical, unchanging laws and not chaotic ones that may be altered. If there were no God holding them in place all would desintegrate into incoherence.What
>>206072273That isn't the proof though, the proof is validating various standards of existence, first validating it exists in the imagination, then proving based on that level of existence that it must also exist in reality. A similar proof could be done for the Internet, first it started as an idea, but the idea was so powerful, it manifested in reality.
>>206072169i want to start off by saying i really appreciate your replies because they come from a place of empathy and understanding unlike many of the others i've received which pretty much amount to "lmao that's retarded." but i still have to disagree on a fundamental level. there is no animal that has the same mental traits as humans. maybe there will be one day, but i don't think so---we have a unique consciousness and capacity for thought that has all the abilities i've outlined, and these abilities supersede any of these first-order "do thing to get thing" processes that goes on in animals. a mammal doesn't experience fear as a human emotion---it experiences something that drives it to preserve its life. human emotion has no connection to this survival instinct, and they cannot be compared.unfortunately i have to start making my way to bed, but i've enjoyed talking to you at least. not the other anons though.>>206072332no not really. consciousness is not necessarily biological because there is no way to measure it chemically or electrically. the absence of chemicals or electricity indicating the absense of consciousness does not mean that it is solely created by these things.
>>206072412Correct, schizos were executed via government prosecution. Autists, on the other hand, were so low functioning that their families would drown them and submit them to exposure to avoid their annoying interference.
>>206072557>their families would drown them and submit them to exposure to avoid their annoying interference.No, their families would put them in charge of precious gem mines until they eventually made enough money to move to america and found their own companies like SpaceX and Tesla.
>>206072329>No it isn't, energy is conserve, but matter isn't, matter is created and annihilated by energy.No, matter and energy are equivalent. Matter isn’t created or annihilated by energy, it literally converts between energy and matter. >Except of course dark energy and dark matter which makes up like 90% of it.Those would have been subjected to the same initial conditions too, I’m not sure why you think they wouldn’t be. >I accept your concession, there is no single universal true conclusion that dictates all of reality, you don't know if physics is the same everywhere, you can only observe minor physical behaviors within in your sphere of influenceI don’t know what you mean by sphere of influence. We are able to observe things literally billions of lightyears away. Also, the ‘can’t be certain’ point isn’t the gotcha you think it is. Nothing can be said about anything without actual evidence, and knowing how well you know something is much more valuable than just blindly taking things as certainties. What you’re asking for is actually impossible, which is providing certain absolute truth without providing any physical evidence for it.
>>206072678That's a nice fantasy but in reality they were abandoned to die in the national parks.
>>206072681>No, matter and energy are equivalent.No, matter is created and destroyed while energy charge and momentum are conserved.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_productionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_law#Exact_laws>I’m not sure why you think they wouldn’t be. They haven't been measured to be expanding the same way matter is, so they are not part of the same inflation model, they are just added to compensate for difference in theory vs measurement.>We are able to observe things literally billions of lightyears away. Indirectly, its not an observation, its an inference, nobody observes space expanding, they observe redshit and infer expansion.> the ‘can’t be certain’ point isn’t the gotcha you think it isIt means you don't have the certainty you are implying, you have already proven you don't even actually understand modern physics since you think matter is conserve when it is produced and annihilated by energy proven by Einstein's famous equation.>What you’re asking for is actually impossible,No what you were originally claiming isn't actually possible and I proved it while you conceded.
>>206069317>be you a lefty faggot with feelings amd faggotry on his faggy face>chad thundercock just snaps you like a twig because he didn't like your faggy face>he has more power, you don't believe in higher power than a man's power. As an apex predator he does how he pleeses.>if he's mercyful enough you can be a simp picking berries when he hunts wildlife and comes back to inseminate all the females.your reaction>nooooooooooo what about our societal deal we can't live like this how did this happen to me>>206069669...and then they ripp to parts all the ill/acting up/useless specimen or cast them out to die alone for example wolves, chimpanzee.
>>206072518>no not really. consciousness is not necessarily biological You can create or suppress emotions using chemicals, drugs, hormones, etc. youre a moron if you think emotions arent biological.
>>206072742So what Elon is the Walrus, they replaced him with a fake Elon?
>>206072518Yeah I enjoy these threads on 4chan too. Truly it is the Greek forums of our times. However:>a mammal doesn't experience fear as a human emotion---it experiences something that drives it to preserve its life. human emotion has no connection to this survival instinct, and they cannot be compared.No a gorilla does not experience fear as a human emotion, it experiences it as a gorilla emotion. It may not take the exact form our fear does, but it is still fear. ‘Something that drives it to preserve its life’ is literally what the emotion of fear is. Our human emotion of fear is intrinsically connected to this survival instinct, otherwise it would not exist. Just because we can feel it in situations which may not necessarily actually be harmful to us, does not mean these situations aren’t the reason for that emotion’s existence. It’s why we have the distinction between legitimate fear and phobias, the latter being fear which is felt in situations that don’t make sense from a survival perspective.
>>206072946No. Instead most of the "mysteries" rely on the person in question wandering off and dying, alone, with no hope, of exposure." I don't want to be this callous about the fate of random people in the forest, but the retarded&delusional conclusions of the bigfooters have forced me to this conclusion.
>>206072502>I imagined that god is real, therefore he's real.I can't believe anyone takes this argument seriously. It's just a bunch of word soup where you try to define a fictional character into being real.
>>206072977There are a million videos out there of primates hugging and embracing one another after stressful events. Ive seen a video where a mom has a seizure in a pool and her son saves her life, and afterwards the son, mother and father all embrace and stand still, and the mannerisms are IDENTICAL to what primates do. You have to be impossibly obtuse to think animals dont have emotions.
>>206072918And then chad thundercock gets killed by my tribe of law abiding citizens.
>>206072903>Indirectly, it’s not an observation, it’s an inference, nobody observes space expanding, they observe redshit and infer expansion.But that wasn’t my point. I was saying that we can literally directly observe objects billion of lightyears away through detecting the light emitted by them. Matter and energy are interchangeable forms of the same thing. Einstein’s famous equation is, shocker, an equivalency. By its very nature as an equation it is saying matter and energy are the same thing with a conversion factor of c squared. In this way, matter is conserved through energy being conserved.
>>206072918Your cuck fantasy isn't reality (or a well-written fantasy). If strongman wants to exist within society he's obliged to its rules.
>>206073129Yeah I agree with you, I’m another guy trying to convince him that animals do have emotions.
>thread about morality>atheistfags can't stop themselves for a nanosecond from yapping about black holes, big bang, all the religions of this world(they know nothing about), mathematics and other random shit.look retards if morality is a manmade thing then only law is this one>survival of the fittest, power is law.you can shit, piss and cry but in the end of the day more of the half of murder cases is unsolved, le policemen don't even bother to solve petty crimes like theft and even bigger ones like kidnappings, if the person kidnapped is noone important to the system.Judiciary system is flawed. Police will flee the picosecond shit hits the fan and if you can't do at least 20 push-ups or use a gun you are fucked.>if only thing stopping you from squashing my leftist head is your concept of higher power you are an evik psychopath mean-acksquashed heads don't have a say, you know? If morality is manmade the stronger one claims the right to tell what is right and what is wrong. Chinese, hindoos and africans cannibalised on each other for centuries before white men came and stopped them. They still eat each other from time to time in Haiti and china. If their moral code was good enough for them, why stopping them?
>>206073400You're really dumb.
oops did i just destroy your whole argument? I think i did
>>206073311>there are no murderers that don't get caught>there are no rapists, thieves, burglars etc. that don't get caught>the ones that get caught leave prison after no more than half of their sentence.>living in prison is somehow livinf outside of societyare all these people obliged to society rules? yet somehos they live unharmed. Case closed.
>>206073400Everything you said is essentially true, which is why it is important to not idly sit by and let what we consider to be injustices go unanswered. In fact, the situation you described makes enforcing good behavior even more important than it would be if there were some objective religiously based morality. Because in that system you could at least say that those strong but evil people will be punished eventually when they die, but in the situation we actually have, we can only do it ourselves. We have to drag humanity kicking and screaming into a better reality, all on our own.
>>206068228>and they were the first in line to create the concept of civilizationI just can't with you fucking retardsplease go google 'ancient civilizations'. You're missing out on a lot of historykino
>>206073070Except he is not alone, he has an autist army building shitty rockets and cars that your mommy uses to drive you to your doctors appointments and get you your schizo medicine that doesn't seem to work all that well.
>>206073400However, faggot, power is derived by cooperation.One lone nutter gets murked by 100 mildly co-operative team players.There are cheats, and defaults, gaming of the meta in such ways.But the fact remains, cooperation *is* the fittest option.So your whole argument is irrelevant.
>>206073676And those who were like Elon, but not fortunate enough to be born into wealth, were murdered by the typical four one one subjects. Why wouldn't they? It's not really that hard to understand. Modern society charges you exponentially for these invalids and demonizes you for not taking care of them. Nature is an easy out.
>>206073082I didn't imagine it, though, I didn't write the books.It only works for one specific fictional character, the most powerful one possible since being real would make it more powerful and it is specifically defined by its maximum power and also the fact that it is omnipresent helps vastly something that if something omnipresent can be proven to exist anywhere, then it must exist everywhere, and again, god exists in fiction and human imagination, so it must exist everywhere, by definition.
>>206073300>Matter and energy are interchangeable forms of the same thing.Nope, matter can be produced and created in pairs while energy cannot be created or destroyed.>Einstein’s famous equation is, shocker, an equivalency. Yea and that equivalence relationship shows exactly how much energy is needed to produce matter and how much is dissipated when matter is annihilated.>By its very nature as an equation it is saying matter and energy are the same thing No, it is saying that matter sequesters a certain amount of energy.>matter is conserved Its not, though, matter can be produced and annihilated using energy which is the opposite of conservation.
>>206073733>nigger coopearting with the machete to kill and roast his fellow neighbourinb4>and then we white men with guns come and say "no booboo" that is wrong.>but why me allways do dis>well yada yada yap yap... many yada later, WE DON'T LIKE IT, YOU DO AS WE SAY SO OR WE KILL YOU ALL RIGHT!?>*whisper (fucking whitey with their guns can't even eat a nigger in peace)>WHAT WAS THAT?>nothung massalmao. yell for your 100 mildly co-opearive team players when 6ft thug caughts you in shady city area at 2 a.m.>cooperation is the fittest optiongame theory and prisoner dillema in your path.why can't atheistfag just accept that egoism is the fittest standard
>>206073775>were murderedNo, they were given maintenance jobs and sent to mines and ocean oil rigs and plastic factories to do repetitive work that helps maintain civilization.
>>206073937U have the big dumb, knowing conservation laws and the place in the heirachy of immutables - fantastic!Not knowing that conservation of energy means conservation of mass, oof and wow.Plus, dissipation, no such thing.
>>206074020As if they were paid out. You don't undertand anad never will. Why do you pretend to and act as callously as I?
>>206073937>Nope, matter can be produced and created in pairs while energy cannot be created or destroyed.And how are those pairs created? By converting energy into them. The energy isn’t destroyed, it becomes mass. >Yea and that equivalence relationship shows exactly how much energy is needed to produce matter and how much is dissipated when matter is annihilated.Yes and when you say ‘how much energy is needed to produce matter’ what do you think happens to the energy? It turns into the matter. >No, it is saying that matter sequesters a certain amount of energy.Yes, which means matter IS sequestered energy
>>206074010Nigger catches and kills 4 out of a hundred before the net closes and they get caught and hanged by the neck until dead..?One side, kill toll! I gotz 4 and only lost 1, my kill ratio is le good!Other side, I had a 4% chance of dying while the nigger managed 100%.Cooperation is the better strat, it’s why we evolved it.Your whingy greentexts change nothing.
>>206074051>means conservation of mass,Except it doesn't, mass is made of particles that can be produced and annihilated, only the energy is conserved. You are basically saying that because water can freeze, frozen is an immutable quality of water that is always conserved.>dissipation, no such thingWrong again, dissipation, it is a very basic thermodynamics thing.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissipation
>>206074156you don't understand, in haiti eating niggers among niggers was common. It's a dufferent society, not a random nigger in middle of bronx chopping dindus left and right. It is an island of nigger eating niggers.why did they stop(did they really?)because americans came in and said>DAT BAD DAT WRONGbut according to niggers it is not wrong.what allows you to say your moral code is better than theirs? What is the difference and why would you listen to you?guns, power, threats, seeing not obeying fellow cannibals to slam on the ground with bullet in the head. cooperate with that.
>>206074090No, I do because I am autistic rather than schizo, so I can actually use complex systems of logic to distinguish between useful physical facts and nonsensical headcanon unlike you and your counterproductive imagination.
>>206074099>The energy isn’t destroyed, it becomes mass.>turns into the matter. Exactly, energy is conserved but mass isn't, mass returns to energy and can be produced by energy, but energy can not be produced or annihilated because it is conserved, so energy and mass are not the exact same thing with the exact same properties as energy can convert to other things besides matter like momentum, heat, charge, inertia, spin, work etc while matter can not because it is not conserved it is constantly produced and annihilated via energy.
>>206074415Yes and that matter can’t be produced or annihilated without the input of energy. When these reactions happen you input energy, where does it go? It becomes the matter. The way you’re talking about it, you’d end up with the same amount of energy at the end of every reaction, which isn’t the way it works. Your analogy is wrong, it would be a more accurate analogy to say that ‘the ability to become frozen is an immutable property of water’. Also thermodynamic dissipation is a somewhat different context to how you were originally using that word.
>>206074559If energy is conserved when it becomes matter, then matter is conserved when it becomes energy. It’s completely nonsensical to say it’s conserved going one way but not the other.
>>206074415>only the energy is conservedAt first I was going to ask if you’re stupid, but then I realised it’d be rhetorical.They’re the same thing, retard, that’s the whole point of an “equivalence” relationship.>dissipation>…dissipation is the result of an irreversible process that affects a thermodynamic system. In a dissipative process, energy transforms from an initial form to a final form, where the capacity of the final form to do thermodynamic work is less than that of the initial form“Irreversible process”No… it isn’t irreversible, that’s the point my learned middle school friend, energy can become mass again. It is not “dissipation”.And you seem to have mistaken quantum foam, where energy can be borrowed from the universe in timescales the universe will not notice, with free matter from nothing.Like, good for you if you’re high and going “if mirrors aren’t real how can our buttholes be?”But none of this works like that, equivalence relationships are one to one, duuuude.
>>206074559Also momentum, inertia, charge, and spin are properties of matter, while work and heat are simply ways energy is transferred, it’s not energy turning into something else.
>>206074607>Yes and that matter can’t be produced or annihilated without the input of energy.Because energy is conserved but matter isn't, do you just not understand what the word conserved means?>When these reactions happen you input energy, where does it go?Energy can't go away, it is conserved, only the matter goes away when it is annihilated because it is not conserved because matter and energy are two different things with different properties, conservation being one of them. You could have better luck trying to make a case that work and energy are the same thing, but even then you would be wrong since they have a derived relationship instead of a direct one.> you’d end up with the same amount of energy at the end of every reaction,You do, energy is conserved, it can not be created or destroyed, the system always has the same amount of energy, but the amount of matter varies significantly because matter is not conserved, it can constantly be produced and annihilated via energy.>‘the ability to become frozen is an immutable property of water’. But its not, water only becomes frozen under certain specific conditions iciness is not maintained thawing out one piece of ice doesn't mean another piece of ice will be produced by the system.>thermodynamic dissipation is a somewhat different context No its not.
>>206074427>What is the difference and why would you listen to you?Because cooperative society created jet engines.Yes, you can continue on the obtuse path that determined retards can still retard hard, death, faggotry, primitivism, they mean nothing from the perspective of subhumans.HoweverIf we so choose, as a group of cooperative entities, to send our jet engines over the top of you to blow the fuck out of you primitive stupidity, there is nothing you can do about it.One individual in a society being “vulnerable” means nothing, when the society itself can choose to obliterate and salt the ground of their opponents.
>>206074668>matter is conserved when it becomes energy.No, the matter gets annihilated when it becomes pure energy.Its not nonsensical because matter doesn't ever get conserved, energy always does, whether matter is being produced or annhilated, the energy of the system is always the same, its just either more matter/less other forms of energy or more other forms of energy/less matter, but the total energy is always the same.
>>206066701which you fight as well by fully funding it, being in the fight is why 9/11 happened you tard
>>206074810>Energy can't go away, it is conservedIt’s conserved AS MATTER. The word conserved isn’t some magic spell that teleports the energy to some pocket dimension until the matter goes away, it is directly conserved as the matter. Which means matter is nothing more than condensed energy. Which means matter IS energy. Which means energy is matter. Which means matter is conserved through the conservation of energy. How is this so hard for you to understand
>>206074728>They’re the same thing, retard, that’s the whole point of an “equivalence” relationship.No, the point is that energy can be used to produced and annihilate matter, matter is not conserved it is being turned to and from energy.Like if water in a container keeps being frozen and thawed, the amount of ice changes constantly, iciness is not conserved, but the total amount of water remains the same, so water is conserved in that example (even though you can separate the molecules and annihilate the individual particle we are just talking about basic freezing/thawing, not the whole physical state in this analogy).
>>206074895Ah, I see where you’re being a clever faggot.Conservation of matter isn’t a thing, yes.Conservation of mass is precisely as important as conservation of energy, in the laws hierarchy.Because “matter is a different word from mass” you’re really really onto something!Regardless that other conservation laws, about spin for example, means that the matter can be recreated with no unbalanced budget from the universe.
>>206074804So we can add transfer to the list of words you don't understand and trans- to the list of prefixes beyond your understanding?
>morality comes from "god"Morals long preceded organized religions by tens of thousands of years.All your purpose and morality comes from within you, if you're not an NPC who sold off these faculties to a bunch of Middle-Eastern merchants.All human morals are established by men, including the ones in your bible. The ones I follow just don't have the Jewish fairy tale aspect to it.Even animals have certain morals that allow them to survive and cooperate in a group, i.e. helping each other when in danger and sharing food.If you claim that morality (i.e. objectively good behavior) comes from your "god", then here's how you prove it:1. Prove your "god" exists2. Prove your "god" is benevolent enough to follow his moral code, and3. Prove your "god" is the author of said moral code, not the men who actually wrote them.Don't worry, you'll never get past step 1.
>>206074995Mass is conserved, that’s immutable But I’ve already noted where you’re playing a rhetorical shell game.
>>206065690>>206066482You better start believing in subjective morality, because that is also what stops everyone else from snapping your neck while no one is looking. Imagine living in a world where you can't just turn your back on random people near you in your day-to-day because the ultra basic social contract that you do not just hurt and kill fellow humans doesn't exist - society wouldn't exist. Fuck religion, fuck laws, even caveman tribes figured this shit out millions of years ago and that is why we are here now. If the only thing stopping you from fucking your fellow people over on a whim are concepts that didn't really exist a few thousand years ago, you might as well do human civilization a favor and off yourself now, because something clearly went very wrong with you to a point where it's debatable if you still count as a human or are just a skinwalker pretending to be one.
>>206074988>It’s conserved AS MATTER.No, if it were conserved as matter, the matter couldn't be getting annihilated or produced, the total amount of matter in the system would always be the same, but that isn't the case, it is the total energy in the system that is always the same.>The word conserved isn’t some magic spell that teleports the energy to some pocket dimension until the matter goes away, it is directly conserved as the matter.The word conserved means it doesn't go away because it can't. Matter can go away, but energy can't which is why energy is conserved, but matter is not.>it is directly conserved as the matter.The energy is sequestered in the matter because energy is conserved, the matter can come and go by being turned to and from energy because matter is not conserved, the energy that composes matter is conserved.>Which means matter IS energy.No, it means energy is sequestered in matter, but once the matter is annihilated, the energy is released and dissipated into the system.>Which means matter is conserved through the conservation of energy.No matter is created and destroyed with energy only the energy is conserved, you obviously don't understand what the word conserved means because it certainly isn't something that can be annihilated or created from scratch by way of energy input.You are hard to understand because you are wrong and you clearly don't know what conservation means.
>>206075033>Conservation of matter isn’t a thing, yes.I accept your concession, matter is not and never was conserved.>Conservation of massNo, mass is not conserved, the energy that makes up the mass is conserved, you can covert all the mass to energy, but you can't convert all the energy to mass because energy comes in many more forms, but mass is just the amount of matter, matter which can be produced and annihilated.>means that the matter can be recreated Which means mass is not conserved since it can be recreated and reannihilated over and over.
>>206075075>Mass is conserved, that’s immutableNo, energy of the mass is conserved, its the energy that is conserved, mass is produced and annihilated constantly. The semantics are confusing to you, so you are mad at them now because you are starting to understand you have been wrong this whole time since matter and mass are not conserved only the energy of the mass is conserved while the mass itself is produced and annihilated.
>>206075219>>206075161https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_masshttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence>Mass-energy equivalence >which states that energy and mass form one conserved quantity.You’re just incorrect man.
>>206075255The phrase ‘energy of the mass’ is completely unnecessary because mass doesn’t ‘have’ energy it IS energy.
>>206075219Aside from the fact you’re obviously a middleschooler who thinks that can “ipso facto ergo” when they have a middle schoolers’ grasp on the concepts, you need to get on why the entropy issue was a big deal with black holes.Matter is, in a way, mass with properties.Entropy is how those properties are encoded.Neither can he destroyed.Get back to me when you see the puzzle in that, then maybe you’ll have something interesting to say.Currently, you do not, because you don’t even grasp the core concepts.
>>206075313https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass#Modern_physics>The law of conservation of mass was challenged with the advent of special relativity. >The law of conservation of mass and the analogous law of conservation of energy were finally generalized and unified into the principle of mass–energy equivalence,If you actually bothered reading it all, you would see that even your own link says modern physics got rid of conservation of mass assumption and replaced it with the more accurate conservation of the mass's energy law.>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalenceYes that says its actually the energy of the mass that is conserved, not the mass itself, since special relativity was discovered by Einstein, they learned more about pair production and annihilation, but no matter how much mass you annihilate the total amount of energy will be conserved because mass dissipates into energy when annihilated. >>206072903
>>206075344>The phrase ‘energy of the mass’ is completely unnecessary because mass doesn’t ‘have’ energy it IS energy.No, it that were the case, they would just call it mass, they wouldn't be finding the equivalent amount of energy in the mass, you can add equivalent to the list of words you don't understand.
>>206075350>Currently, you do not, because you don’t even grasp the core concepts.Except you are the one that clearly doesn't grasp the concept of conservation and thinks that something that can be produced and annihilated is conserved.
>>206066125Because they are required for society to exist, you fucking retard.
>>206075155>you better act like us or else! you skinwalker non human yadayadayou all came from tiktok here or what.no objective morality=I do as I please>but our jet engines our computers our cars what about our cooperationgood for you, that has a fuck to do with individual's morals. Single person can commit crime and still be good according to their own moral code.>but that's immoral!immoral=wrong according to the social agreement which was enforced by the ones in power.killing people is le bad unless you are a soldier then you are good. If you saw someone murdering somebody and you killed him immiediately it would be good but if you hesitated and shoot him in the back that would be bad and you would go to prison for murdering a murderer.bounty hunters were a real profession now it's illegal, at best you can pin down someone in the act while commiting a crime and call the police, but if you off him on the spot then you are the baddie. faggotry was illegal now disrespecting fags is illegal.only power matters. without guns, rockets, bombs, tanks, airplanes, attack helicopters, drones, microwave cannons, lasers and ballistic missiles goverment couldn't do shit to enforce it's point of view and their laws and morals.
>>206075495The mass is conserved AS energy, just like how energy can be conserved as mass. That’s the whole point between mass energy equivalence
>>206075495>producedFrom what?>annihilatedTo what?Riddle me that, middle-schooler-kun.Show your work, you might get a B even if come up with the wrong answer, if your steps are clean until the logical pratfall you’re obviously committing.
>>206065690Why shouldn't a muslim snap your neck when nobody is looking? His religion explicitly rewards killing infidels like you.
>>206075444>f you actually bothered reading it all, you would see that even your own link says modern physics got rid of conservation of mass assumption and replaced it with the more accurate conservation of the mass's energy law.Dude the passages you quoted directly contradict what you said here. It wasn’t replaced with conservation of energy, the two were unified together into one principle.
>>206066186morality is a spook
>>206065690Are all christians actual psychopaths that would kill everyone around them if their magic book didn't prohibit it? If this book is so important to them why are they constantly ignoring 99% of it?
>>206065690Interesting that you don't question why an atheist, unburdened by your concept of morality, doesn't snap your neck. Instead you are asking him, why a morally superior human like you doesn't do it to him. A true conundrum.
>>206075574>The mass is conserved AS energy,No, that means mass is not conserved, it is annihilated into energy dissipation which is conserved.>That’s the whole point between mass energy equivalenceNo, the whole point is that if you annihilate mass, an equivalent amount of energy is released. Mass and energy have very different properties, mass is defined by its attraction to other mass while energy is defined as the capacity to do work, but if you get rid of a specific amount of mass, you will release a specific amount of energy since mass can be gotten rid of (not conserved) while energy can not be gotten rid of (conserved).
>>206075798>No, that means mass is not conserved, it is annihilated into energy dissipation which is conserved.Using your logic here, you would also be saying that when energy becomes matter it is not conserved, which is obviously not true. You are stubbornly trying to make an equivalence, which by its very nature goes both ways, work in one direction only.
>>206075618I already showed you>>206072903You didn't understand, but I will try again.>From whathttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production#Energy_transfer(Z+)γ e− + e+>To Whathttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilation#Electron%E2%80%93positron_annihilatione− + e+ γ + γ
>>206075643>the two were unified together into one principle.No, it clearly says conservation of mass was replace with conservation of the mass's energy since they discovered that mass can be produced and annihilated while energy is always conserved, so while the mass comes and goes (mass = not conserved), the amount of energy in the mass is always the same (energy = conserved).
>>206075768the atheist is a limp-wristed faggot pussy obviously
>>206067345Original sin is not even a Christian doctrine. It was introduced nearly 400 years later by Augustine. There are massive Christian denominations like Eastern Orthodoxy that don't believe in it. If a supposedly key part of your religion was introduced by a fallible human like me and you 400 years after the fact then your religion is not true lmao hahahah The idea is retarded anyway. An all mighty and merciful God made the default for everyone to be bad people that would go to hell? Your religion is false.Also according to Christian belief God the Son united himself with the human nature to become Jesus, why would a God unite himself with something that's inherently evil? Haha. Your religion is false.Other anons are right, your arguments are shit. They're not even true. And you've completely ignored the massive holes in your own belief.
>>206075898>you would also be saying that when energy becomes matter it is not conserved,No, because matter contains energy and if you annihilate the mass, you are left with the same amount of energy you started with, but while you can sequester a certain amount of energy to produce a certain amount of mass, the energy is always there holding the mass together and allowing it to transfer momentum, inertia, and heat while attracting other mass.
