So in the end what message is the show trying to convey exactly?
>>206185647Scotch and Soda
organized crime is bad
give up your ethnic identity and be absorbed into American globohomo.
>>206185793This ackspesso shits the worst.
>>206185647Women can't park for shit.
>>206185647Nothing really, most of the stuff the writers just pulled out of their ass.
Tony Soprano was a ghost the whole time and only A.J. could see him because he has the power to see dead people
Enjoy the onion rings
>>206186026It’s true, I can’t
It doesn't matter if Tony lives or dies. His life as he knows it is over because Carlo flipped. Even his own crew will be trying to have him killed knowing Tony will probably end up also making a deal with the FBI and roll on them.
Meadow was his guardian angel throughout the series. Every time Tony's life was in danger she somehow managed to save him.
tree o'clock
>>206188139I bet that Member's only jacket guy (suicide boys brother) was about to pull out a gun he got from the bathroom but didn't do it once meadow walked in. Same way that guy before didn't kill tony because he saw him with meadow.
>>206188139so she decided not to stop junior from shooting him?
>>206188076>>206188139What if Meadow kills Carlo?
>>206185647Tony died
>>206185647>message It’s not 7th heaven or some after school special.
>>206185647Short term gratification vs long term happiness and fulfillment. Tony started to choose the latter at the end but by that point it was too late.
>>206188076That's just the plot, doesn't really explain what moral message Chase was trying to tell the audience.
>>206188025lol what does this mean
>>206188430>Tony diedyou so sure about that? because the language of cinema says otherwise.
>>206185647The Shield stuck the landing that David Chase didn't have the balls for
>>206189826Care to elaborate? There isn't anything in the clip that says otherwise.
>>206190058tomy walks in, looks at the table, and imagines himself there, imagines a guy killing him. The only reason to film it that way is because you are showing that its not real.
>>206190142A guy wearing a members only jacket walks into a restaurant and kills a fat guy sitting at a table.The only reason to have filmed that is because it happened
AJ literally says it at the end. Remember the good times
>>206190199that's all in tony's head, everything after he sees himself sitting is his fantasy/nightmare
>>206188025Notice which letters are covered up, ignore the numbers
>>206190142correct, Chase said it repeatedly, eventually he said Tony died to get people to fuck off
>>206189818>>206190267
>>206185647That psychiatry is a racket for the jews.
Guys, do you find it annoying going with your parents out? Like for dinner, some celebration, whatever
>>206190142Then I guess you would have to argue that almost the entire episode is in Tony's head since that 2001 Space Odyssey style of shot reverse shot also happens multiple times in the episode before the diner scene.
>>206185647Sopranos is about a lot of things, it honestly doesn't boil down to a coherent singular message in the end.
>>206185647Therapy is pointless
>>206190223This.
>>206190391>that 2001 Space Odyssey style of shot reverse shot also happens multiple times in the episode before the diner scenewhat when?
>>20619049802:47 mark when Tony leaves the car to meet agent Harris. 13:34 mark when Tony walks to meet to Janice. 51:33 mark when Tony walks over to Uncle Junior.
>>206190754hmm I dont remember these... I will investigate. You better not be fucking with me.
>>206190781Yeah lol im not, you can literally find these scenes on youtube Im pretty sure.
>>206185647Not going to read the thread, but the message of the show beyond "crime doesn't pay" is that Tony faced the consequences for leading an "easy", evil, cowardly lifestyle. His dream with his football coach shows that he had potential to be something more than what he is, even if he really never could've been a varsity athlete, he could've coached football and been a role model himself for kids like his own coach was, it would've been better than what he turned out to be and more honest and true to the best part of his character. We watch Tony struggle in the battle for his soul for 6 seasons and the decline is more gradual than in a show like Breaking Bad, which covers similar tonal themes (not to diss Breaking Bad, just making the comparison). When he finally gives in fully to "who he is" (I see it more as selling his soul, either way he reaches a point of no return sometime in season 6, most likely in "Kennedy & Heidi") is when he loses and ultimately surrenders to his fate at the end of show, being murdered in front of his family like the Mafia boss that he is. I think they choose not to show what happens because the nature of his murder is unspectacular and very much like most of the other murders on the show, which is intentional because that's what he's sold himself out to be: just another dead gangster.
>>206191065Or, to sum it up: https://youtu.be/AnCqZXhGTm0?si=Q5_XdyZtE5J5eRFr
>>206185647That greasy, thieving, criminal Italians are pretty much people too.
>>206191065This. And also I think that Tony actually showed genuine signs that he was going to turn his life around at the end of the finale when he realized how pointless the criminal life is after his final meeting with Junior. But right as he is about to turn for the better he is killed. So I think its sort of meant to be a cautionary tale for the audience on how you should turn your life around for the better before its too late.
>>206191556Yeah, I think it's a very spiritual show and I feel like by that point he had already caused more damage than he himself was worth and there was no stopping what was coming. Karmic retribution or divine punishment, whatever you wanna call it. I think the scene with Junior just brought up all the feelings he subconsciously had the entire show which was why he was depressed to begin with. It was like the universe laughing in his face one more time before finally disposing of him, which is honestly what he deserved by the end of the show.Also, this same karmic retribution arc applies to most of the other characters on the show as well.
>>206191065>>206191556>>206191672Tony was beyond saving in season 1 already
>>206191711If he had chosen to flip that early on he might've had a chance to salvage his life somewhat. He was already pretty far gone from the start but he could've at least improved his life morally somewhat at many points in the show. Obviously he never should've gotten involved with the Mafia from the start but then there would be no show.
>>206185647I always took the message to be that you can't escape where you come from, but it's up to you to make peace with it or get destroyed by it. In the beginning Tony was more optimistic, but more mentally troubled by his actions. By the end he'd become a real leader, but became completely jaded to the idea of personal growth. The worsening of his cynicism came as different pillars of his childhood were torn down in his perception. First his mother (BPD) then his father (serial debauchery, treating Tony like an investment instead of a son) and finally Junior (the shooting, losing the opportunity to reconcile because his mind was already gone). Tony started off refusing to blame his upbringing for his mental state, and by the end used it as an excuse for all of his bad behaviour. He stopped trying to be a better person, and stopped having panic attacks as a result. The panic attacks had always come when he was forced into a situation he wasn't prepared for, because at his core he never wanted this life. But the trade off for not having panic attacks meant that he never got control of his impulsiveness and anger, which ended up being what ruined him. Then you have AJ. Similar situation in nearly every regard. Panic disorder, having to live up to his father's standards, overbearing mother figure, depression caused by feeling trapped in a sham life. The finale showed him ready to join the army to become his own man, but Tony and Carmela stopped him and got him work closer to home. Meadow as well started off very antagonistic towards Tony and his lifestyle, but by the end of the show had become invested in criminal law because of the "persecution" Tony saw at the hands of the feds. In both cases the children's lives were inadvertantly yanked away from manifesting independently. Tony and Carmela tried with good intentions towards their kids but may have unintentionally ruined their futures as a result.It's also about how niggers and Jews ruined America.
that onion rings are a great appetizer
>>206191711>Tony was beyond saving in season 1 alreadyso was I if you remember.
>>206191817Might be obvious to point out but I like in Star Wars how under this intimidating skull/Nazi-esque mask, Darth Vader is this fragile looking old man. Kind of a metaphor for ego vs. reality. Tony is similar in that he portrays himself as this big, scary mob boss when in reality what he is is a confused, scared little boy. Still a very dangerous person, but that's usually what most "evil", egotistical people are; terrified of being seen for who they really are underneath the front. Even though who they really are might not even be something to be ashamed of. It's all fear and ego-based.
>>206192351kino
>>206191790>It's also about how niggers and Jews ruined America.I think this is unironically true, Sopranos is also about America and in my opinion the decline and deterioration of America. With the show's tone changing after 9/11, Butchie accidentally walking into chinatown in the finale and all that.
>>206192351But then there's people like Paulie who may actually just be psychopaths. He never seems to feel bad about anything he does and has the attitude of "it's just what you do." The only time he comes close to feeling guilt is when he cheaps out on the festival and has the vision of Mary at the strip club. I wonder what the psychology of that is; if he was just afraid of God punishing him likely due to an old school Catholic upbringing. I also like when his entire identity is shaken after he finds out his mother is actually his aunt. Without context this could just seem like a dramatic twist for the sake of it, but the reason it's so interesting with Paulie is because he is the opposite of Tony in that he's never questioned his identity as a walking gangster cliché up until that point.
>>206185647Poppers and weird sex
>>206185647Don't be a bad guy.
>>206191817Now that I am grown up, I can appreciate the message of the Original Trilogy.
>>206185647>So in the end what message is the show trying to convey exactly?it's that their writer does not know how to write endings.
>>206185647On a rewatch recently I realised the only person who knew they were going to Holstens in advance was Carmella who made the decision, so did she set tony up to get whacked?
To always get breakfast Sandwiches on Sunday if you live in NJ
>>206192900She mentions it to AJ and Rhiannon and there's an interesting (although likely untrue) fan theory that Rhiannon was the one to set him up. It is interesting that she shows up and has a lot of screen time at the very end of the show for seemingly no reason.
>>206192947>Rhiannonthat sneaky little cunt
>>206185647Honestly, I genuinely wonder what Chase himself thinks, cause in most interviews it looks like he really doesn't know much either.
>>206185647It's essentially the same message as Goodfellas. The characters are losers who took the easy way out in life by being criminals.
>>206191065>he reaches a point of no return sometime in season 6, most likely in "Kennedy & Heidi"Tony reaches this point in the gambling episode when he finally does the one thing his father told him to never do, gamble addictively. And it costs him his relationship with Hesh
>>206193280Thats true but Kennedy and Heidi is still more of the true turning point since its the episode where Tony committs arguably his most evil act in the show. And its also the last episode where the lighthouse motif from Tony's coma makes a return, symbolizing how Tony has fully failed in his original commitment near the beginning of the season to start living a better life.
>>206193280I see that more as Tony abandoning his view of his father as someone to respect and look up to. He lionized his father and blamed his mother for everything up until that point. I think one of the episodes before that, where he meets his dad's old mistress is where he really becomes disillusioned with him. Like, the realization his father left him, his siblings and his mother to go spend time with this pathetic woman was too much for him to reconcile in his head.
>>206185647The last season focuses on death primarily, so many characters die and in a variety of different ways. Cancer, murder, suicide, car accidents, etc. But what makes the tone so depressing is this feeling that they died for nothing. Vito's whole life for example was just for a newspaper obituary calling him a faggot with a pool cue stuck in his ass. That's all his murderous criminality amounted to. It's very depressing. And it's probably why they don't show Tony's murder at the end. Spending 6 seasons with a character who turned away at every opportunity to redeem himself knowing that he was gonna end up dead in a horrific situation like getting his brains blown out at a diner, it would be too gratuitous to show it happening. The audience already knows that's how his life could end.
>>206185647>messageThere are none.Modern shows are Nihilistic.
>>206193397There's also an interesting, possible connection between that episode and Kennedy and Heidi, since that episode is named "In Camelot" which is a reference to what the media called the JFK administration, and also because his father's mistress claimed to have had a relationship with JFK. It's kind of deromanticizing JFK's legacy as this cool womanizer when really he was sort of a cheating scumbag who betrayed his own wife and family, just like Tony's father did. This scene sums it up: https://youtu.be/tkmbs-P6iSI?si=RoGhanM2fYPibqRRI can't draw a direct conclusion between Kennedy and Heidi here, but the name of one of the girls being "Kennedy" seems intentional.
>>206193392>>206193397It's more that killing Christopher was his way of acknowledging his own fate was sealed and that he failed in his life. Because Christopher was supposed to represent his legacy as a gangster and he utterly failed because the gangster life brings only death and destruction. Christopher being a retarded junkie would've cost him the life of his daughter with the car seat being impaled. So Tony kills him to "end the cycle" of familial criminality, the same cycle his father groomed him into. He was killing Christopher but also in a way killing himself, killing his whole gangster life. There was a scene in the Many Saints of Newark movie that was cut, but it was Tony saying he wanted to kill his father. Very peculiar
>>206189826He’s looking at himself walking through the door in the final scene, his killer is himself. He dies of a heart attack. Bravo Chase
>>206193563Scenes like this are why I love this show. They never outright state what it's "about." They never show Tony admitting what he really thinks about the mafia, never once in the whole show do they have him admit what a horrible person he knows he is. They just show him contemplating the truth and it's our responsibility as the audience to read his face and come to the conclusions. He clearly hates his father, but all he does in the show is praise him.
>>206191790>It's also about how niggers and Jews ruined AmericaI think this is really lost in the grander story of the Mafia, they were descendants of lords of Italy, and came to America during the fascist period. There was always a presumption of nobility to it all, though obviously the reality was darker.
>>206193687He also clearly hates himself here, talking big about his father's mistress and JFK with his mobster buddies while inside he feels betrayed by it. Not to mention the fact that he himself is sitting in a strip club with his wife and family at home.
>>206190267>AB>Anthony BourdainIt all makes sense now...
>>206188025This borders on schizo
>>206193754Yes, it always shows without telling. Nowadays they would have an emotional scene of Tony giving a didactic monologue of how much guilt he has being a murderous adulterer or whatever like all TV shows. But they never do that in the show. The closest a character comes to having such a conscience is Christopher talking about flipping to JT Dolan but then he kills him and goes back to his normal ways
>>206185647We're all going to die so appreciate the good things in your life and the people important to you.
>watch many saints of Newark>Weird narration by Chrissy that he's in hell >Random subplot about a race riot>Focuses on some mulignan banging some whitey>LOL dicky is killed because he laughed at junior >LOL silver Al dente wore a wig all along>Not a peep of Richie aprile, Jackie aprile, feech le manna and other guys>Barely portrays Tony mood swings and emotional issues
>>206193914literally this. they outright tell you the message of the show at the end of the first season with tony having dinner with his family and telling them to appreciate the good times together. then the show ends with tony forgetting he ever said that because at that point he's an irredeemable fat faggot headed towards a grisly death
>>206188025I ate at this diner a few weeks ago and sat in the Sopranos booth. I had a taylor ham and egg sandwich and the onion rings, bought some chocolate on the way out. Overall 8/10, would go again.
Why won't they make a Crime Drama Series like the Sopranos, but it is based on Jabba the Hutt's rise?
>>206194176>Overall 8/10,just curious anon what do you consider a 10
>>206185647>So in the end what message is the show trying to convey exactly?That New Jersey should be walled off and turned into a concentration camp for gaba-ghouls. We can't send them back to Italy because that would increase the EU's welfare burden (PAY DENBTS), but it's pretty telling when even Italian-American directors are unable to do anything except glorify criminal thugs.
>>206188139How do I give reddit gold to this post?
Violence, trauma, gender roles, ego, determinism, capitalism, decay, and the intersectionality of these subjects
>>206185647Crime is le bad
>>206192794>has the vision of Mary at the strip clubThe supernatural/the afterlife being explicitly real in the show make this moment so fucking nuts to me. It's insane that it happens, with that jarring abrasive sound as it does. Fucks me up thinking about it, damn
>>206185647It's all a big nothing
>>206194343I dunno, I've had better food and dining experiences I guess. But my sandwich was good and you won't find taylor ham on the menu anywhere where I live, the food was inexpensive, and the staff friendly. I think 8/10 is a good rating for a diner, and they're a dime a dozen in New Jersey.
>>206185647That ginzos are evilSame with the wire portraying how niggers can't be trusted.
>>206195451That's cool
>>206193597Considering how little David Chase seems to have intended much of the interpretations for the show, this could be pretty true
>>206194454lol no
>>206192900>so did she set tony up to get whacked?There's some mild evidence for this, in Kennedy and Heidi when Tony calls Carmela she's online looking up houses to buy in Florida, which is pretty suspicious. Plus in Chasing It she realizes the scale of Tony's gambling habits and has to be wondering whether or not he'll end up losing everything they own. It's highly unlikely but not impossible.
>>206193563Honestly, the part of this scene that sticks with me the most is Tony B reflexively lying just to sound more knowledgeable. He doesn't even hesitate.
>>206189826That's just a jump cut that sets up the POV sequence that takes place during the scene, the point of which is to make you conclude Tony was blasted.
