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>>39519459
Previous thread >>39483578

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bump

>>39519459
I always liked how everyone shills Gnosticism but no one ever talks about the Marcosians, the most interesting Valentinians and so also the most interesting Gnostic sect out therr

>>39521503
Give us the rundown, anon.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QDluHk0heA

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VJ-rYBC68Q

>>39522133
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcosians

>>39524121
>>39524127
>>39524132
>>39524137
>>39524142
>>39524144

Not Christian.

>>39521503

gnosticism for women. no thanks.

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>>39524150
https://publicdomainreview.org/essay/robert-fludd-and-his-images-of-the-divine/

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o16bRhSu9M

>>39524150
It's the true Christianity that modernity rejects
>>39524156
Touché
What makes it interesting is that it contains number and letter mysticism, something that only shows up this explicitly in the Sefer Yetzirah
But we have material that suggests that both Jewish Proto-Kabbalah and Marcosian Number and Letter mysticism have their origin in Christianity, there is a concept similar to the Sephirot in Saint John, the Shepherd of Hermas, Clement of Alexandria and Pseudo-Celementine Literature, and there exists the book About the Mystery of the Letters which is about Christian Letter mysticism, using the Greek Alphabet and a bit of the Hebrew one

>>39524171
Fludd is interesting as he's an example of a Non-Behmenist theosopher
His sources are Paracelsus and the Cabala, but for him Cabala was a Neoplatonic Christian tradition based on Dionysius the Aeropagite with it's origins in Moses and Pythagoras
He uses 'floating hypostatization', Metatron was identified with the Active Intellect of Aristotle, the first three Sephirot were identified with the Trinity and the seven lower ones with the Seven Spirits of Revelations, the letter Aleph was seen as a symbol for God as it was the letter representing 1 in Gematria

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98VXW_kGaRI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE9fw00CIyM

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https://annaelysee.substack.com/p/sympathy-astrology-and-christianity

so why are there sin offerings in the Messianic Age if Jesus Christ is our only sin offering?

>>39524367
according to Ezekiel, at least.

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>>39519459

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjMjvBSFuHY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8blzVedZiWk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMICgoPtJw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxwsHO615vg

>>39524540
Wow, Milbank sure can make a beautiful quote when he isn't always comparing one thing to another.

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What levels of permission (from confessor. bishop maybe?) does a working catholic man need, to live 100% poverty, voluntary poverty? As in; giving away your goods \ 90% of net worth, and becoming indigent, willingly taking up meagre or low-skill labor jobs even if you have degrees, etc?
Is it more spiritually useful to live "normally" and contribute off your good salary? but the poor don't have the choice, and for them, poverty IS living normally. So, was Plinio Oliveira right in describing catholicism as Hierarchical and based on the 3 Social Estates?
>i've been reading reports from my country's work safety office ,and labor ministry, on working conditions in various areas

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>>39524921
I don't understand, do Catholics need 'permission' to do something like this? You can't just do it on your own?

>>39524997
ST Alphonsus Liguori advices getting confessor's permission before severe\extreme penances , or asceticism.

>>39524997
>Hart translation
David Bentley Hart?

>>39525085
yes

>>39519459
Videos on Gnosis, its various types (SPG, UPG & VPG) and Gnosticism:

https://youtu.be/0F7knBtLsNs
https://youtu.be/260L-DEZVQ0
https://youtu.be/diHf_Tup6tE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcGSNX0caUc

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1SRpkwF4hEaXZvor4BXyoAawrNVgH9CM&ll=37.18715264939567%2C-103.18365816031597&z=5&entry=yt

https://thavmapub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/the-enchiridion-of-pope-leo-iii-english.pdf

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https://hymnary.org/text/theres_a_wideness_in_gods_mercy

1 There’s a wideness in God’s mercy,
like the wideness of the sea.
There’s a kindness in God’s justice,
which is more than liberty.

2 There is welcome for the sinner,
and more graces for the good.
There is mercy with the Savior,
there is healing in his blood.

3 But we make God’s love too narrow
by false limits of our own,
and we magnify its strictness
with a zeal God will not own.

4 For the love of God is broader
than the measures of the mind,
and the heart of the Eternal
is most wonderfully kind.

5 If our love were but more simple,
we should rest upon God’s word,
and our lives would be illumined
by the presence of our Lord.

I want to start a monastic order, the main goal of the order will be charity with the secondary goal being preaching openly in the streets.
All i need is just a good name, suggestions?

>>39530358
Deus Vult Gang Rise Up Order
DVGRUO

>>39531499
Based dubs.

>>39526978
funny, a couple of days ago I found a sack exactly like this one

>>39529144
he is the thaumaturgist's Saint, isn't he? random immediate earthly matter shit for a cheap offering, popular on reddit like a decade ago

>>39532497
Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfNwkOf5ntM

>>39529197
I still have no idea why some of Fludd's ideas resemble Böhme's 3 principles

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I'm angry. Angry about Calvinism.

>>39537275
There is no need for that, it's already been done
Christianity is the culmination of two traditions, Jewish and Pagan, and the same way we don't get circumcized we don't keep Pagan superstitions, instead we continue 'Our Old Testament', Philosophy
We don't need a synthesis, it already exists, we just have to continue our tradition from where we left off
>>39537281
Bluetooth

>>39536597
Become a Christian Universalist if you aren't already.

>>39537315
Oh also the whole Rune shilling and all that, I get why people do it, it's easy for me to shill Philosophy but for Germanic and Celtic peoples that might seem more foreign to them, I just want to mention that most of the Celtic and Germanic Pagan texts we have today stem from Christian writers, and depending on where you are from, your Heroes are most likely Christian kings, for example German Heldenepik is made up of people like Dietrich, who is the Ostrogothic Emperor Theodoric, he was an Arian sure, but Christian nonetheless

>>39537275
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_i1GzIIiLY

>>39533223
have you tried?
happy new year by the way
not Christian, but I'm going offline for at least 10 months, so... yeah

>>39537621
No. I only pray to God, not to saints and such. But I find folk magic and folk religion fascinating. I'm not Christian either. Happy new year, Anon. Best wishes.

>>39537660
I'm going to rehab on 8th Jan
I'm trying to collect sources to read upon, this is going to be hellish, I've been through rehabs previously, 1 long-term, couple of short-term
my highest values are autonomy, knowledge, privacy - so this is almost suicidal

but I must do this

give me more sources, so I can ask my family to just print this out
I got a general confession, or whatever it's called in English, I got my Eucharist, I'm trying to believe, well, I just do the practice, but with little result. That's how it goes, apparently.

But I need some form of intellectual stimulation, I can't just give up my very foundational characteristic of my temperament, so I'm very scared, because living with people 24/7, being on watch, is frightening, literally all day, every day, that's what led me to ultimately breaking abstinence and basically running away from those places.

I'm scared, I have trouble believing that this will help me (because of previous failures and just pure statistics) I just don't know what to do. I fucking don't know, I'm spending my last days of freedom here and packing piece by piece.

I'm miserable. Give me something that would soothe my overthinking mind, please.

>>39537687
>the rehab lasts 12 months
>I won't have access to any media, my phone, anything, for at least 10 months
I fear this, but this could be just yeah FOMO whatever lmao just forget about what happens 5000km away right? it worked last time

now then here comes the fear of what is to come after I'm done with the program: I'm in debt
my teeth are falling apart
I lost all my belongings (connecting to the fist)
I have zero market competence or whatever you would call this in English
I'm fucking 32
my colon hurts
my shit implies pancreatic cancer
my shit implies colon cancer
for the past 2 years, I've been feeling worse than ever in my entire life, including withdrawal syndrome week+
I can't sleep
I keep pissing at night, 3 times
my lower, now upper leg muslces and upper arms are twitching at night (polyneuropathy)
I cannot focus
every single negative bias shit is exaggerated

I feel like I'm fucking dying, my brother told me a year ago, a day before Christmas Eve, that he loves me, but doesn't believe anymore, he thinks I'm going to die in the next 5 years (now 4)

even if I manage to stay sober, I'm going to die
I can't afford diet
not to mention supplements
I can't afford medical care
(being in EU means that you go private ($$$) or you wait until you go to palliative care lmao)
I'm going to compete with zoomers without social anxiety, 2 feet taller, with rich parents

is it over, God? why? what am I supposed to do? there's zero chance I will do anything positive
and yet, all my life, I've been told, that I'm superb, exceptional, extraordinary, my scores were out of charts, everything was unbelievably good

I DO NOT WANT THIS I WANT NORMAL GIVE ME 30%

I hate this shit I do fucking hate myself

>>39537687
I wish you courage, protection and best success, Anon.

I'm not sure if you'll resonate with any of these, but some resources that I've personally found interesting and helpful are the work of Brad Clark, Margaret Barker, Ryan T. Mullins, John Milbank and Michael Martin.

I'm also interested in how Christians viewed the Tarot before Antoine Court de Gébelin. And I like the pics on the @mountain_conjure and @msgraveyarddirt Insta accounts. I like reading about Braucherei/Powwow.

https://www.picuki.com/profile/charisophor9
http://www.margaretbarker.com/
https://www.rtmullins.com/
https://druidstaresback.substack.com/
https://www.youtube.com/@regenerationmikesauterandm7748/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmartin8681/videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjMjvBSFuHY
https://pre-gebelin.blogspot.com/
https://www.picuki.com/profile/mountain_conjure
https://www.picuki.com/profile/msgraveyarddirt
https://pagermanpowwow.com/

>>39519459
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

>>39537784
I'm also interested in Biblical Unitarianism, as represented by people like Dr. Dale Tuggy and reddit user ArchaicChaos. And I love the writing of Catholic Platonist Robert Bolton.

https://www.youtube.com/@khanpadawan/videos
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblicalUnitarian/comments/zmuza5/index_for_my_posts_unitarianism_vs_the_trinity/
https://www.themathesontrust.org/papers/comparativereligion/sw17_bolton-upton.pdf

>>39537784
I'll get a cup of coffee and struggle through, it's half past 4pm, this is going to be my "Sylwester"
I kept going back to Baker and Milbank, but I really don't feel like I can handle their level of intellectual proficiency
thank you regardless, it smooths my being, thank you

https://watch.plex.tv/watch/movie/the-ritman-library-amsterdam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2HCOuY-EiE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdLTDzFogzs

>>39537784
>>39537835
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAqGcKSIMCg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59Rtzc5kBHc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yy_T2gJAao

>>39538072
https://annas-archive.org/md5/6466fe90b2f5ad0a31eee7b91a66e29c

>>39537784
https://www.thecenterforsophiologicalstudies.com/g

>>39538072
>>39538102
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1kZFL9_240
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54rVctPNXfo

https://dn720005.ca.archive.org/0/items/youth-of-the-apocalipse/Youth_of_the_Apocalipse.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l_ag9SszdU

>>39537959
NTA but if you want something more digestible, see how much C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton you can get your hands on. Also once you're out I would really recommend looking into joining a local church (even if you don't yet consider yourself a Christian), especially if they have an outreach group for the unfortunate.
>>39537325
I am, or at least I consider it the most coherent view (far moreso than ECT and Annihilationism). Still, seeing Calvinists turn God into a moral monster and acting as if this was the best way to explain salvation irks me. The "but God HAS to damn people for His glory!!!" argument that they often resort to (which ironically despite their claim to have a high view of God's sovereignty, makes Him DEPENDENT ON EVIL FOR HIS OWN GLORY) is obnoxious. It feels like witnessing a smear-campaign against a loved one.

>>39539420
Yeah, that is a great point.
If they necessitate that God must damn people for his own glory, then that makes damnation as integral to reality as God himself.

It'd mean he was either incomplete ( imperfect ) before damnation or that there was some eternal damnation from the very beginning within his own essence. ( in that case, he wouldn't need to damn people ).

https://files.catbox.moe/rdsk7s.mp3

Has the quality of this general gone up recently, or has it always been this interesting?

>>39541292
band? song name?

>>39542138
>band?
Gemeinschaft
>song name?
Transcend

https://files.catbox.moe/lyw8c1.mp3

So wtf are the actual practices that Boehme or Gitchel did to actually enact their alchemical writings? Am I going crazy? There is very little practical element to their writings despite writing so much about their alchemy.
What are some contemporary books about alchemy which includes practices, that is not new age crap?

>>39521503

>>39543681
Boehem is schizo shit and people only pretend they understand it because simple minded people assume complexity indicates wisdom when actually the wise admire simplicity

I truly believe this but maybe it'll trigger Cunningham effect and bait someone into answering your question, idk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS35BbXhKKg

>>39543681
Book I: The Fundamentals of Esoteric Knowledge, Lessons 1-12
Book II: Spagyrics, Lessons 1-48
Book III: Mineral Alchemy, Lessons 1-84
Book IV: Qabalah, 1-72
Book V: The Experience of Eternity

It's been years since I've looked at these, but I remember book two (and probably three) was full of lab work. Spagyrics has you trying out plant alchemy, starting you off slowly.

>Philosophes du Nature" (LPN) in France in 1979, and the organization became known in the United States as the Philosophers of Nature (PON) under the leadership of Russ House. Dubuis' mystical studies began after he experienced a profound awakening, at the age of twelve, in the island sanctuary of Mont Saint-Michel. This awakening led to a lifetime of experience in European and American esoteric circles. For over sixty years, he studied and practiced alchemy, cabbala, and related arts and sciences, and prior to founding LPN, Dubuis was intimately associated with the development of Martinism and Rosicrucianism. Professionally, Dubuis worked in the field of nuclear physics with the Nobel Prize winner Jolliot-Curie, and was employed by an international electronics firm for over thirty years.

>>39543822
https://www.alchemywebsite.com/philnatr.html

> Spagyrics is a 2 year (48 lesson) course which teaches the preparation and uses of herbal elixirs, particularly the seven planetary elixirs used to rebalance the spiritual centers in the human body, the processes followed to obtain the vegetable stone (Opus Minor), the method for extracting the universal seed from rain water, and similar processes. Theoretical, practical and philosophical aspects of spagyrics are developed in the course materials. Theory on philosophical mercury and the alkahests is also given.
Mineral Alchemy is presently a 7 year (84 lesson) course, which follows the Spagyrics course. Course work focuses on Alchemy in the mineral and metallic realm with practical work on preparation of menstruums, paths for making animated mercury, separation of the three essentials, and numerous other works. Techniques of Alchemical meditation are included. Additional courses are under development based on continuing research in Europe.

>>39541821
It went up, a few weeks ago people complained about how this general was so cool back in the day and that now it had become terrible
>>39543681
It's not that they were alchemists, people like Böhme and Gichtel were theosophers but used some of the terminology of Paracelsus who was both a doctor and theologian
Böhme had a very simple practice, only pious living, reading the Bible, going to Church, praying.
Gichtel had a more monastic approach, he had his Angelic Brethren who consulted him for help, his letters are collected in German as Theosophia Practica, but even his practices are very simple, prayer and fasting
If you want all the spooky occult practices we all associate with Esotericism in Christian theosophy, look up Kerning and Mailander on the Pansophia website
>>39543733
Time to take the bait
It's not complex its just that Böhme has no philosophical training and so he had to explain everything he experienced through alchemical terminology which someone in the 21st century doesn't understand, and his own quirky way of expressing himself in 17th Century German with his very own neologisms and puns

>>39519459
isn’t christian esoterism just nazi stuff with extra steps?

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>>39544632
https://en.rattibha.com/thread/1700672456397037898

>>39519459
>Catholic but hell isn't forever

Where do I go

I tried reading Boehmes Way to Christ. Why is the ‘despise yourself you unworthy worm’ view so perennial in christianity? When I read the Gospels I see nothing like this in the teachings of Jesus, what gives?

>>39544791
Pride caused Lucifer to fall from grace
Both views of human nature are important, we are both the Image of God and the Microcosm of the World who were made by God reunite the World with him, and we are also disgusting animals torn apart by demons and ourselves who are a nothing in front of God
Mark 10:18

>>39544632
>>39544747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByH0gJFNGOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bptnhUOG2GU

>>39544757
Look into Apocastasis in Origen, Evagrius Ponticus, Maximus the Confessor and John Scotus Eriugena

>>39544638
>Those look like eyeballs
>surely they're not eyeballs, I'll google it
>they're eyeballs

>>39544757
Two modern intellects
https://campuspress.yale.edu/keithderose/1129-2/

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That_All_Shall_Be_Saved

I wouldn't worry about continueing to go Catholic church, if that is what you are thinking about. 99% of the people there haven't read the catechism, and will hold various beliefs that conflict with the church. If the Lord is truly merciful and not a total idiot (crazy idea!) you won't be punished for it.

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https://druidstaresback.substack.com/p/the-death-of-arthur

>>39546003
>I wouldn't worry about continueing to go Catholic church
Besides my spelling error I realized this is an ambiguous statement. I meant it to say there's no reason you shouldn't continue to go, if that's what you are worried about.

>>39546270
These symbols and verse that have lost much of their potency, what can they be replaced with? The standard of art is so poor these days, skill and spiritual impact have been replaced- by executive decision.

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>>39546355

>>39544757
Check these out:
https://youtu.be/watch?v=NJkA-UxLNGw
https://youtu.be/watch?v=wuSf5Ro9fDE

Just how much does one have of free will?

>>39546536
First you have to define what free will actually is.

Good names in contemporary Christian art?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WydW_vpDt_4

>>39549038
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLu4Egxz9hw

After I finish this document arguing for Apokatastasis I will work on my next discernment which is Marcionism and discerning what the canon should actually be.

>>39537281
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1tVjIxcQV4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4r_L7Ur8iE

>>39551157
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EyT2zgKlt4

>>39551002
I'll look forward to reading it. I'm glad there has been a recent trend towards re-evaluating Marcion. If we had a copy of the Antithesis, I wonder how different our perspective might be.

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>>39549038
>>39549203
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjgJZCg7XUY

what is eros ? Romantic love?
The love between a man and a woman.

Is this fundamental to reality like we know the Love between Father and Son is? Since we know God is Father and Son, so this fatherly love was present from all eternity.

What about romantic love?
Is this just something only within the created order?

If it is something only within the created order, then how can God speak in bridal symbolism with Christ and the Church? Would we say that he doesn't truly feel a romantic love in that? And it is just imagery?

If he truly does feel romantic love in that relation, then would this not imply that creation must've always existed in some way so that God would not be imperfect at any point? Or, some other implication which I am not going to say right now.

>>39551296
Well, I think we'll have to make our own antithesis.

feel slightly sad that according to tradition my only chance to experience a sweet woman trusting in me and having that romantic love from the perspective of a man, is during this one imperfect life.

I of course, am open to perhaps believing that something else may occur in eternity in terms of experience, but tradition is you know, no one in the resurrection will be given in marriage with each other.

>>39551536
and I know that from the bridal symbolism we may very well be experiencing romantic love from the perspective of a bride. God treats creation as a woman. God's grace upon creation in the end, during the Apokatastasis. And a symbol of that is Man's grace toward woman in providing for woman.

Is our masculine urge in romantic love only a symbol and will be done away with in eternity as Christ assumes that masculine role and we all assume the role of bride collectively?

But also, if marriage is a symbol, then the real thing which it represents may be more literal. The becoming 'One'.

>>39519459
Not even /ceg/ related but do you guys know whatifalthist?
He recently went full /x/ and says that God told him to found a new religion

>>39551996
>has access to guns
>God told him to found a new religion
>probably has enough autists on his side
if something happens (it never happens) then i have a bad feeling

>>39552020
I think his following will decline now but he will develop a small internet cult with the people who still watch him

>>39551489
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeossTASy2M

>>39552103
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hckcQV097PY

>>39551536
>>39551547
I think about this, too. It seems very odd to me that romantic love between man and woman would be instituted for this age (and presumably before man's fall) and yet be non-existent or almost completely different afterwards. But, it's hard to see that one verse any differently. Still, I often catch myself wondering about what our relationships will be like with each other in Heaven and the New Earth.

I also wonder if any more people will be made. There's a few reasons I have for thinking about this:
>if even one more person in communion with God's love is a gain in goodness, then why should people cease to be created?
>if there is no creation of people in the age to come, then the implications in regards to the end of this age (the second coming) being delayed are strange to consider. ie. if the second coming was not delayed, none of us here would have any chance at life and communion with God
I don't find the "but we'd run out of space!" argument convincing given God... being God. Either the Earth could be expanded or we could populate other stars.

That then opens up another question, if people will continue to be created, would it be by God's acting alone, or would there be procreation between existing people again? I'm reminded of Isaiah 11:
>The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
If you don't interpret this as solely metaphorical, then it seems like there will be infants and children in the new creation. So where do they come from?

Maybe I'm just overthinking. But it seems a great honor and glory to God to bring new persons into the world (especially in the new creation, where there is no risk of them falling away), and I have great difficulty reconciling this with the "like angels in heaven" verse.

>>39553226
I should also add that in regards to
>if the second coming was not delayed, none of us here would have any chance at life and communion with God
then by the logic that no new persons will be made in the new creation, it becomes a strange concept to be praying for Christ to come again sooner rather than later, when the harvest may be much greater.

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https://theaeolianharp.substack.com/p/pordage-and-divine-wisdom?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

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https://theaeolianharp.substack.com/p/reading-jacob-boehme

>>39553706
>>39553840
https://theaeolianharp.substack.com/p/philadelphians-and-mystics

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>>39552896
>>39552903
>>39552911
https://theaeolianharp.substack.com/p/more-on-postliberalism

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https://theaeolianharp.substack.com/p/getting-into-s-bulgakov

>>39524367
>>39524370
Elijah will explain that when he comes again

>>39554294
or maybe the Jews just appropriated Jesus.

>>39553829
I've been saying that for a while, the Early Modern Period is much more Medieval than it is Modern
I have yet find the right the true beginning of Modernity however, either around the French Revolution and death of the HRE, the 1849 Springtime of Nations or even the First World War at the latest
>>39554026
In the end it's a form of counter-revolution, instead of going back or changing things up, we have to continue where the tradition last left off, in our case, Sophiology, and we have to 'built an Ark to survive the Flood', the early Christians were a minority of believers in a Pagan world, now we are a minority of believers in a Pseudo-Christian world, we now have to be Christians inbetween Christians as in Kierkegaard, we have to make our Ecclesiolae inside our Ecclesia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJpxB4iPimM

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>>39554821

Asceticism is so much easier and far more joyful as a Christian than it was when I was a Buddhist.

>>39556974
Inspiring Philosophy on youtube tackles many of the apparent contradictions.

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https://pansophers.com/secret-symbols/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRklM63mZ0o

>>39557473
the more I read the Tanakh , the more I agree with Marcion.

The Jewish stuff has always annoyed me at a deep level.

Especially Matthew's 'fulfillment citations'. From when I first read the Gospels, Matthew's fulfillment citations using the rabbinic manner of 'pasher' to connect passages to Jesus felt so forced.

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>>39519459
https://eliasartista.substack.com/p/the-order-of-melchizedek
New post after so long

>>39558439
Excellent article.

Do you guys even go to Church?

>>39557473
These Calvinist (Gavin Ortlund) and Lutheran (Jordan Cooper) youtubers are helpful in pushing back against popular Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox claims/polemics, and sometimes against atheists, but they do at other times come across as very stubborn and narrowminded. Not that I'm in favor of Marcionism, but this is just something I've noticed among Calvinists and Lutherans online.
>>39559148
I do.

Thoughts on Rambam?
Please only answer if you're actually somewhat familiar with him, and not just what you glean from a Google search

I don't mind scholars being a bit arrogant as long as it's merited by throwing themselves into the arena of ideas
This is why I have a hard time respecting DBH as a intellectual. He says some incredibly divisive and arrogant things while never participating in debates. He coined the term "infernalist" which I notice gets thrown around alot by universalists practically as a slur, so evidently his unmerited arrogance catches on with his followers

>>39560179
>coined the term "infernalist" which I notice gets thrown around alot by universalists practically as a slur,
I wonder if this sentence was intentionally ironic or merely revealing.

>>39554821
new channel to binge on, thanks

>>39560128
Great philosopher who influenced Saint Thomas, but since this is /ceg/ we like him filtered through Abraham Abulafia's Ecstatic Kabbalah, and for his influence on Cambridge Platonist John Smith

>>39560179
I half agree, in that I sympathize with Hart in a sense. His arguments and his writings are constantly misrepresented by shortsighted "I'm going to skim read this just so I can write a review saying how wrong it is" dogmatic types. If the majority of people who try to argue with you either don't understand you because of blind adherence to dogma, or deliberately misinterpret you, why would you seek to engage with them? And honestly, who is arguing for infernalism in a way that is convincing? Who should Hart debate with? What are their arguments other than "we can't understand" or divorcing God's morals from our own? While I don't dogmatically believe in Universalism (yet I do hold it as the most feasible view of the three), the weak, gnostic/post-modernist arguments against it just aren't convincing. The best you can do is "muh tradition" (which ignores all tradition that is to the contrary).

That said, I don't particularly enjoy his attitude (OK, maybe a little, it's fun seeing him poke fun at people like Feser). I think Infernalists is a fitting term, not a slur. We need a better term for Universalism though, because it's too easy for people to misinterpret it as hyper-ecumenist "all faiths lead to God" or as denying that there IS a Hell (/purgatory) that just isn't eternal.

>>39560198
I'm a universalist myself so I don't know what you're implying
I hate that I need to say things like this to "qualify" myself, like someone has to say "I'm black" to criticize black people
>>39560268
Lots of mainstream scholars defend infernalism. I mean, it's the mainstream position for 99% of christians, including in academia. Convincing? Well not for me, but the point is, if we want truth to reign then it'd be nice if someone would argue for CU, and DBH happens to be at the forefront.

>>39560345
>Lots of mainstream scholars defend infernalism.
I know, I just don't think any of them are offering convincing arguments, and so I don't see them as worth Hart engaging with. Hart has a reputation for being a very convincing proponent Universalism. Where is the equivalent for Infernalism? I don't know of any.
>I mean, it's the mainstream position for 99% of christians
Technically. In reality how many of them do you think actually believe in it rather than affirming it because it's what they've been told they must believe? This is another reason the defense of Infernalism is so weak: barely anybody really believes it. It's like Calvinism, there are only a few extremists who will seriously affirm it on every point (ie. non-elect infants burning in hellfire) rather than try to squirm around it and appeal to mystery.
>if we want truth to reign then it'd be nice if someone would argue for CU, and DBH happens to be at the forefront
I think that's what he's doing with his books. Though I agree that if there was somebody who people thought "Wow, this guy offers really strong arguments for eternal conscious torment" about, then I would want to see that person have a back and forth with Hart. I just don't know of a single person with such a reputation.

>>39560410
>I just don't think any of them are offering convincing arguments, and so I don't see them as worth Hart engaging with.
Very dangerous way to think anon. "I already know I'm right so there isn't a need for my view to be challenged". Even so, my problem isn't that I necessarily think DBH could be wrong, but mostly that his (and his followers) express an unmerited arrogance. Win the debates, then be arrogant.
I haven't been able to found universalist debates at all really, but William Lane Craig did one on behalf of infernalism against the seven day Adventist doctrine of annihilationism. I don't think the lack of willingness to debate is on the part of the infernalists, and this is NOT because I'm sympathetic to their view but just the fact that the majority of Christians who participate in academic debates happen to hold the position... Whereas the universalist position seems mostly (or totally) unaccounted for

Imagine a boxer saying he doesn't need to fight the champions because he's already proven he's the best by shadowboxing himself

>>39560463
>Very dangerous way to think anon.
I already said I don't dogmatically hold to Universalism. I'm open to hearing good arguments for Infernalism or Annihilationism, but at present I believe the Universalists hold the strongest arguments. I'm open yet unconvinced. I hold to a similar stance in regards to dogmatic "one true church" claims. If somebody came out and was able to definitively prove that EO or RC was the way of least error, I would convert ASAP. That not being the case, I'm currently Protestant.
>but mostly that his (and his followers) express an unmerited arrogance. Win the debates, then be arrogant.
Honestly I haven't seen his followers do this. But if they were doing this I would have difficulty blaming them for doing so if they had been living under such an oppressive and seemingly incoherent doctrine for so long, and had discovered what they believed to be actual truth in Universalism. It's difficult for me to imagine how being raised under such a view might torment a person, myself being a late convert. I think the best way to stop them being "arrogant" would be to offer a solid counterargument.
>but William Lane Craig did one on behalf of infernalism against the seven day Adventist doctrine of annihilationism.
I may have to check that out, because I too would hold to a form of ECT over the idea of God snuffing out those made in His image, were Universalism deboonked definitively.
>but just the fact that the majority of Christians who participate in academic debates happen to hold the position... Whereas the universalist position seems mostly (or totally) unaccounted for
I just don't see this as relevant. I think they hold the belief because it's traditional (at least post Disgutin' Augustine) and a "safe" thing to believe. In the same way I don't consider Calvinism to be true just because many intelligent, academic Christians hold to it. Many intellectual types are out-of-balance in their approach to God.

>>39557440
>9 lights and not 10
>not in the configuration of the tree of life anyway

>>39560518
Still waiting for you to provide a strong argument for or proponent of Infernalism.

>>39560599
>I'm open to hearing good arguments for Infernalism or Annihilationism, but at present I believe the Universalists hold the strongest arguments.
I feel the same way, I just think it's rather dismissive to say the other side isn't "worth engaging with" when there hasn't even been much engagement
>But if they were doing this I would have difficulty blaming them for doing so if they had been living under such an oppressive and seemingly incoherent doctrine for so long
It's very hard for me to sympathize with this position when there hasn't been engagement. Atheists will make the same criticism about Christianity at large just because it condemns homosexuality (or whatever sin of their choice). I'd refer to chestertons fence: let's learn why these limitations are in place, namely infernalism, from their strongest advocates, before we rip it down. And I dont think that can happen fully until both sides meet face2face at debate. I don't mean you cant pick a side personally, only that the arrogance can't be merited or sympathetic to me. I'd say the same if infernalists were saying how ridiculous CU is without proper engagement (which I know they do).
> think they hold the belief because it's traditional (at least post Disgutin' Augustine) and a "safe" thing to believe. In the same way I don't consider Calvinism to be true just because many intelligent, academic Christians hold to it. Many intellectual types are out-of-balance in their approach to God.
This is the kind of arrogance that DBH instills in people, no offense to you sincerely. But he peddles this idea that his version of Christianity is so true and loving and open, while saying figures like Augustine and Calvin taught a religion that wasn't Christianity. I think there needs to be more room for Christian mercy, and human bias/error. If you want to say they believed some abhorrent stuff then sure, but to say they weren't Christians is a troubling line that God could use against us.

>>39560764
I had to cut down on some stuff on this post because I hit the limit
>>39560615
I mentioned William Lane Craig. I think it would be disingenuous to pretend he isn't a strong proponent for infernalism when there hasn't been a debate yet. Or virtually any Christian in academia. James R White and Mitch Pacwa would be interesting as they speak the biblical languages.
These figures should be dismissed after the discussion takes place, not before as an excuse for there to not be a discussion in the first place

The theological discussion is secondary to the textual discussion which is in turn secondary to the historical discussion. A theological debate can only boil down to two people asserting the philosophers they most like informed by their life experiences (conventional, "supernatural", or otherwise.) In the texts themselves, the closest thing we get to ECT is something like Lazarus and the Rich Man, which lacks the Eternal, and debates on the nature of "shame." Historically, at the time, the most common view would be annihilation (possibly preceded by a violent destruction or otherwise a bad situation), and both Paul and Revelation both seem to endorse this view (no, "worm does not die" does not mean that.)

Phantoms fighting phantoms. Let Dante die.

>>39560826
If anyone is annilihated then death still has power into eternity.

>>39560764
I don't hate Muslims, but I wouldn't say they are Christians.

I'm not going to label someone who is preaching bad news and tarnishing the witness of the Faith, as a Christian.

Transactional 'Gospel' is not Good News at all.
It's only good news for the selfish.

Anyone with the Love of God in their heart will not see anything which has people eternally lost, as good news.

>>39560764
There has been engagement, though. Look at any of the critical reviews of Hart's main book on Universalism. Look at his arguments with Ed Feser. The problem, to my reckoning, is that we're currently in a state where Hart and other Universalists seem to have thoroughly and convincingly argued against all the arguments the Infernalists have, and the Infernalists have yet to convincingly argue back (or come up with any new kind of argument).
>But he peddles this idea that his version of Christianity is so true and loving and open
He does play it up a bit, I'll give you that. Many Universalists forget to bring up that Hell is (probably) still a reality, but rather restorative in nature and temporal rather than eternal.
>while saying figures like Augustine and Calvin taught a religion that wasn't Christianity
It's a bit hyperbolic of him (and other Universalists) to put it so bluntly, as if denying the salvation of people who adhere to those doctrines, but I do agree with the general sentiment. Calvinism is incoherent and makes God a baby-burning moral monster. Augustine was a proto-calvinist who, still under the influence of his previous religion, made God a baby-burning moral monster. There is a point at which, despite truly intending to worship God, you find yourself worshiping and defending Baal. If the matter is unclear, we should err on the side that praises God's character, not the side that drags it through the mud as far as our God-given conscience can tell.
>William Lane Craig.
He does good apologetics work, but I know I've seen many question his skills at theology.
>James R White
He might be an honest Calvinist, but he's still a Calvinist. Calvinist doctrine is contradictory and incoherent.
>Mitch Pacwa
I'll look into him.

>>39560847
False dichotomy as Muslims don't even claim to be Christian
It's not about hatred, it's about creating an arbitrary line that doesn't exist in the scriptures, when Christ taught that the metric we use to judge others will be used to judge us.

>>39560854
>Look at his arguments with Ed Feser.
Can you link me? Do you mean an actual real time argument face to face, or at least over webcam? I tried to find it but can't
>'s a bit hyperbolic of him (and other Universalists) to put it so bluntly, as if denying the salvation of people who adhere to those doctrines, but I do agree with the general
Pretend I green texted the rest of your post. These are all sound criticisms worthy of unpacking and discussion, but I think you're playing a bit of damage control on DBH's part. I'd be willing to believe he's playing it up or being hyperbolic but he hasn't said that himself, you're charitably reading that into his views. It would be the same as me saying "Calvin/augustin didn't really mean the quotes that you're criticizing".
And I'm not saying the people I named would wreck DBH or anything, I only listed them as examples of infernalists who regularly take part in debate. Whereas DBH has not (and remains arrogant). I cannot sympathize with the idea that his arrogance is merited because he shadowboxed against them in the mirror by writing books. I'm interested in watching the argument you mentioned though

imagine if we went back to a time like the Early Church Fathers right now.

>>39560764
Also,
>Atheists will make the same criticism about Christianity at large just because it condemns homosexuality (or whatever sin of their choice).
Sure, but under the assumption that God will punish them in eternal hellfire over it. There is a difference between being reformed from what is sinful and being punished retributively for an eternity. There is a difference in severity of concern between:
>It doesn't make sense that a perfectly good God would inflict infinite punishment for finite errors
and
>I enjoy sodomy, but God says that's wrong
If these atheists did not believe that Christian doctrine claimed they would be tortured for eternity for their sexual preferences, they would be less likely to reject Christianity with a knee-jerk reaction. If they knew that God cared and wanted them to become perfected, holy beings, then they might stop to try to understand why sodomy is unholy.

I also want to clarify that in my previous post (>>39560854) I am not questioning that people that (I believe) are adhering to incorrect doctrine are unsaved, even if Universalism was false. It's their intent and effort that's important, to my understanding.

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Fast forward to future and professors are analyzing anonymous posts.

"judging by the posting style, time stamps, and views expressed we can say with high probability that this compiled work of posts belongs to the 4chan patristic named 'Hieronymous' "

Yep that's classic Hierotine writing.

>>39560941
:-)

-old bearded man taps nose and smirks then winks before walking away-

>>39560896
>Do you mean an actual real time argument face to face, or at least over webcam?
No, it's through blog posts and news articles. Here's a few links, you'll be able to find more exchanges through them:
https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2017/01/a-hartless-god.html
https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2020/07/review-of-hart.html
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/07/21/the-edward-feser-algorithm-how-to-review-a-book-you-have-not-read/
>but I think you're playing a bit of damage control on DBH's part. I'd be willing to believe he's playing it up or being hyperbolic but he hasn't said that himself, you're charitably reading that into his views.
If you can read Hart and doubt that he's being hyperbolic, then I'm not sure what to say. He very clearly enjoys his flowery writing.
>Calvin/augustin didn't really mean the quotes that you're criticizing
Not equivalent, it's literally their doctrine.
>arrogance is merited
Not merited, no. Arrogance is never merited. I was just explaining why it is that I believe he's become arrogant.

>>39560941
>filename
Based.

>>39557440
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91vyEeyIKoA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_S9qIpx_YA

>>39560934
>If these atheists did not believe that Christian doctrine claimed they would be tortured for eternity for their sexual preferences, they would be less likely to reject Christianity with a knee-jerk reaction. If they knew that God cared and wanted them to become perfected, holy beings, then they might stop to try to understand why sodomy is unholy.
I think this is generally true in the idea that preaching truth will generally catch more flies than nontruth. But at the same time, the truth is always there for those atheists to discover if they truly seek it. They could just as easily say "oh hell isn't forever? I'll just keep doing what I want then". I don't think it's totally fair to blame infernalists in this case, though we can always try to preach truth more often than not, in general.
>>39560992
Well I meant more like real time engagement but at least this is something. I think Hart fancies himself as a Hitchens, except Hitchens actually engaged with dissenters constantly.
Fun fact: Hart claims he was going to debate Hitchens but Hitchens passed away before it could happen. I find this hard to believe considering that Hart hasn't debated.... Pretty much anyone at all except 1 or 2 laymen.
https://youtu.be/NYkYU_YPrBg?si=-1jzeom7kv6Oekq6
He also has statements like this
https://youtu.be/M35gvAO_vPM?si=uWXPCFWUUJgmphqf
Where I truly believe this guy is surrounded by yes men. And I know the title is tongue in cheek. I'm protestant too but I think his criticisms of RC and Ortho is like he's only read CNN or BuzzFeed articles on them.

>>39561097
>But at the same time, the truth is always there for those atheists to discover if they truly seek it.
Sure, but we can make it easier for them. No need to set up stumbling blocks.
>I'm protestant too but I think his criticisms of RC and Ortho is like he's only read CNN or BuzzFeed articles on them.
Funny thing, Hart is EO. But yes that video is just Hart being Hart, he likes to shock people. It certainly triggered people in the comments.

I'm just glad we have him, rather than an echo chamber.

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Division and disagreement within the Church in regards to scripture, tradition and doctrines makes me think it's impossible to come to a perfectly sound and stable conclusion on almost anything based on intellect alone. Sometimes intellect and faith feel as if they are at odds with each other, but maybe I've just exhausted everything I can do with intellect alone (or at least as the primary force).

I think it's time for me to read less polemics, apologetics and theology. Instead I want to read more history, lives of the saints/fathers/mothers, and the writings of the mystics.

>>39561986
Read The Golden Legend
Also I don't expect a reunion of the Churches anytime soon, instead i look to what unites them all in the quest for Unio Mystica

https://www.liturgicalartsjournal.com/2018/04/the-essential-bookshelf-for-religious.html

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>>39562514
Thanks, I will.
I can't even imagine what a reunion of the Churches would look like. So much would have to change or be discarded. At least it's been a driving force for people to learn more about Church history and expand their horizons beyond their little echo chambers, even if they continue to come to different conclusions.

https://theaeolianharp.substack.com/p/traherne-and-the-fullness-of-joy

>>39562654
This is his best biblical one IMO

I never understood how the concept of a hagiography can exist, considering that God breathed scripture does not hesitate to share the failures and weaknesses of its biblical heroes. It seems sort of idolatrous to make someone out as though they lived a perfect life

I measure the Tanakh by Christ. Not the other way around.

So no Jewish arguments which assume the Tanakh as a measure for the New Testament can work on me.

Christ resurrected. That's my origin point.

I don't care about the plagues. I don't point to the plagues of Exodus or the salt pillars of Sodom.

>>39564497
>I measure the Tanakh by Christ
Yeah that's the thing you do as a Christian, if Jesus and the NT weren't a thing no one here would convert to Judaism because of the OT alone
That's also why the debates over Genesis they have in the USA is meaningless, the age of the universe and evolution don't disprove Christianity because they are different from the creation account, if Jesus lived and died and came back to life, then that is above everything else and things around it have to change, not the other way around
We have the OT because the NT is dependant on it, one of the Church Fathers uses the image of a bow and arrow, the OT is the bow that is used to shoot the arrow of the NT, which is the Good News

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l4SklcjGyY

>>39557440
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8BTJW5oBLo

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQb4Rtf_tJw

Bump

>>39537791
your point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vztk9fqGng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7uFFF51uqk

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is_3XaL3Xic

>debating heresy
Kys

>>39573534
According to Dr. Markus Vinzent, Marcion's expulsion never happened.

Serious question and personal struggle here; I know this guy is a LARPER , "pope boniface X (of miami)" but WHY is he wrong, in his compiled statements? I will just put a few relevant quotes on the topic of D*ed-to-real h* unbaptized infants...the guy is an unironic paleo-sedevacantist Jansenist.

>https://archive (dot) ph/20120529123207/http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/limbo-pelagianism.htm
>St. Anselm: “Not all individuals deserve to be tormented in h* in equal degree. Now, after the day of judgment every angel and everyone will be either in the kingdom of God or in h*, So, then, the sin of infants is less”. (The Virgin Conception and Original Sin 23)
>Jacques Bossuet (-1704), the Bishop of Meaux, wrote his Defence de la Tradition et des Saint Peres against the Jesuit Richard Simon who had accused Augustine of departing from the tradition of the Church, of originating a novel doctrine of grace and of authoring the doctrines of Luther and Calvin. He defended Augustine’s doctrine of the fate of unbaptized infants. “According to Bossuet, both the Council of Lyons and the Council of Florence had said that original sin would be punished in h*. There could be only one conclusion, said Bossuet: the children are in h*, in perpetual torment.” (Dyer, op. cit., p. 72)
>The Augustinian General Vasquez sent a formal petition to Pope Clement XIII requesting protection from calumny in 1758 because the Jesuits of France, Spain and Italy were calling his men “Jansenists” and accused them of heresy. He sent Clement a list of twenty-three propositions fundamental to the Augustinian doctrine. The following was among them. “Unbaptized children who die in original sin are not only distressed by the loss of the beatific vision but the are tormented by the pain of fire in h*, however mildly it may be. This is in keeping with the opinions of St. Augustine.”

>>39573534
what would be the motivation behind judaizing the faith and hijacking it for their god?

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>>39573695
Source: Touched by Chris : The Sacramental Economy ,by Lawrence Feingold
probably one of the most OCD-inducing statements in catholic theology

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>>39519459

>>39573700
I'm not sure. I'm just slowly beginning to explore the topic. I'm currently 35 minutes into into a 2-hour Markus Vinzent vid about Marcion.

>>39573661
Honestly I don't think Markus Vinzent is a very careful scholar. For example, one thing he rightfully points out is that the gospels are not referred to by the names Mark, Matthew etc. until Irenaeus, nor explicitly cited. But he extends that to mean that the texts themselves did not exist until shortly before then.

But that is kind of silly. For one thing, that the text is not referred to by the name "Mark" does not mean that particular text did not exist, it means that text had yet to be associated with that name and authority. Two, that our writers do not refer to them is already explained by Papias: he considers the written text to be an inferior way of absorbing information about Jesus, while the superior way is speaking directly to associated of the apostles. His apologetic defense of "Mark" also shows that people in his social circles were also dismissive of at least one written account that Papias himself had a soft spot for, meaning this haughty attitude towards written biographies was not unique to Papias. In this case, why would we expect them to cite what we know as the gospels authoritatively? Indeed, Papias' offhanded dismissive reference to the crowds favoring these accounts is terrible for Vinzent's argument, because that shows there existed books that people were reading that Papias feels no need to treat authoritatively: if some of those books Papias dismisses are our canonical gospels, Vinzent's argument from silence is incorrect, and if they aren't, that's even worse because it means there are even more written accounts floating around at that time that people do not cite despite existing.

This leads to some pretty insane conclusions, like all the gospel writers working together at one time to create the synoptic gospels, which is just cartoonish the more you think about it. What, does Mark write first, and Matthew and Luke quibble over who gets to define the Temptations? Not to mention calling EVERYONE a forgery.

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>>39573695
This is fear porn, and a result of what happens when you limit God's grace and goodwill by material sacraments.
>tormented mildly
Makes about as much sense as the idea that there are venial and mortal sins.

>>39573695
>but WHY is he wrong
1. Because that would make God a sick, evil monster.

2. Of all the people and authorities and thousands of interpretations of Christianity, why should I listen to them?

Everyone is reconciled to God and restored.

>>39519459
Cambridge Platonist Ralph Cudworth on how the Union of Christ and his Church exists in Kabbalah as Tipharet and Malkuth
https://www.cambridge-platonism.divinity.cam.ac.uk/view/texts/diplomatic/Cudworth1642B

>>39573534
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5nm_F-u35s

If God is beyond time, is God eternally experiencing the crucifixion?

I hate heresy so much it's unreal.

>>39575188
Same, but especially syncretism.

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The parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the prodigal son are impossible to reconcile with the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise anymore.

>>39575515
Yep.
Jesus actually took away the sin of the World.

https://archive.4plebs.org/x/search/username/InHocSignoVinces/page/10/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu3FuEH77-s

>>39576424
Thank you.

Bump

>>39578991
Fuck i thought it was a man with his legs open near a bucket

>>39519765
idk why youre slapping a jew's face on excellent advice when his real philosophy was always paying your taxes so jews could bomb kids in palestine and it didnt matter what race you were so long as you paid your taxes and worked for The Great Satan

>>39524185
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mng3-l2-jnE

>>39580071
take your meds

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>>39580218
you meds is literally a jew bro
i dont think youre in any position to be telling people to take their meds

rangeban india

>>39578991
I wonder if that's plugged in

>>39579330
Milbank getting emotional lol

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qlaSUeqqPQ

https://tentmaker.org/articles/once_saved_always_saved_slagle.html

>>39576424
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/search/tripcode/%217OoIn52ZgU/

>>39537275
>you've had AIDS so long it's part of your natural body goy and thus le good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx6gkbGFx7Y

Is there a word for the idea that the Judeo-Christian message slowly changes as man evolves. OT was threatening and about the law, NT more about believing and love, then early Christians were quite ascetic and radical politically, then Rome, then Medieval Europe, blah blah blah, softening in modern times.

I don't mean only that people are interpreting and living differently, which is of course the case. I mean that the message from the divine itself changes when man is ready for it. Is there a name for this philosophy/concept?

>>39590631
Only two i can think of are Montanism and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore
Not very similar but what you're looking for but that's all i can help with

Topics to write about:

1. Apokatastasis
2. Marcionism
3. The Canon
4. Atonement Theory

>>39591677
But who should write about that?

>>39592018
I'm writing about it as I study the topics but everyone else can too.

so much of what I held true in an autopilot sort of way is falling away.
As everything falls away I feel isolated to such a degree that I feel I am going to only be staring at God when this investigation through.

>>39592031
Based.

>>39580294
This is so pathetically reaching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsWQ01UTv_k

>>39592141
While I understand what you're saying, don't let this fool you into thinking that only those like yourself can be saved. I think one of the great features of Christianity is that it is attainable by simple people and wise men. We must always be willing to compromise with people's errors the same way that God compromised with the Israelites due to "the hardness of their hearts", as we are all in need of this condescension on God's part for our errors. The more you think that you are uniquely wise or spiritual, the more you move away from God, in spite of filling your mind with truth.

Matthew 5:22

I know there are a lot of denominations that make us think "how can anyone believe this, surely these people aren't saved" and while I think most people with a mature faith eventually outgrow the institutions, we need to understand that this is by the grace of God .. and the Bible says God chooses to lowest and least wise to give the most grace... 1 Corinthians 1:28

On a more tangiental note, this is why I really hesitate to introduce people to DBH... I feel like he instills arrogance in his followers, In a similar way the "new atheists" influenced their followers to mock religious folks. I'm just saying since I know he's quite popular here, and I've learned a bit from him myself

>>39593652
Well one of the things I've discovered is Apokatastasis, so I don't believe only people like myself are finally saved.

Everyone is going to be restored. Even the Devil.


Unless you mean saved in the sense of 'attain to the first resurrection'. Eonian Life. Life of the age during his Millenial Reign. That's another discussion though. I'm just glad everyone is finally saved. How can I even focus on yearning for rewards if I'm so ecstatic that everyone is going to live in the end? After being filled with this idea of a sadistic God my entire life, I'm just thankful that everyone will be well.


Praise God, all will be well.

>>39591677
I had a topic to write about earlier, then when I opened the laptop to write I forgot what it was.

Then I saw this post and now I have a new topic to write about. Thank you anon

>>39593652
>I really hesitate to introduce people to DBH... I feel like he instills arrogance in his followers, In a similar way the "new atheists" influenced their followers to mock religious folks.
Well said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p5Kz88aFlc

>>39593652
DBH comes across like an asshole but he's the best gateway drug available for universalism and viewing the NT in context (i.e. the spirits to which Paul felt humanity were enslaved)

He's provocative, which I feel is helpful for generating conversation, but I can't imagine he'd be pleasant to talk to

>>39594366
>but he's the best gateway drug available for universalism
Dubs confirm.

>>39594366
That's the thing I have to look at as well, ransom theory, I already accept Apokatastasis but I've been still holding onto that penal substitutionary atonement theory.

>>39591001
interesting, thanks

>>39592031
please continue to make posts on the more interesting and controversial points. Those debates and discussions have a lot of lurkers learning and thinking about things they've never considered (speaking from personal experience)

Walls of text and links to big reads from other places are often ignored or barely discussed if at all.

>>39594494
>links to big reads from other places are often ignored
That's primarily why I visit /ceg/, to to be exposed to resources I wasn't aware of. But the good discussions are also pure gold.

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>>39592773
your meds, goyim

>>39595529

>>39595529

New

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>Newest Chart of Everything in existence(excluding other gods, would be ranked at the same level or lower as fallen angels)

>>39596316
this is according to....?

>>39596346
Original Hierachy of Creation: God, gods, Angels, Mankind, Animals, Bug Creatures, Sea Creatures. I put mankind above fallen angels and gods because they can be prayed away with asking Jesus for help(multiple cases). Genesis says man was created lower to angels, so I kept them at that. I put the Holy spirit at the same level as God because it comes from God. Jesus is lower than God, since the Father is greater than he. But Jesus is the Word of God, who is also God, and was in the beginning with the father. Mary is given an upgrade from normal mankind at the level of Angels of the Lord, since she gave birth to Jesus as a virgin. She is no longer a virgin as she slept with Joseph after giving birth to Jesus. Animals, bug things, and sea creatures are ranked below man because God gave mankind authority over these creatures in Genesis. I used my insight knowledge and feedback from others, constantly updating this chart, to the one you see now