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Moth to flame edition

Christian Esotericism is the inner and/or mystical aspect of the Christian Religion, it includes:
>Christian Gnosis (Clement of Alexandria)
>Desert Fathers Spirituality (Evagrius Ponticus)
>Catholic Contemplative Tradition (Bonaventure)
>Hesychasm (Gregory Palamas)
>Chivalry (Wolfram von Eschenbach)
>Christian Alchemy (George Ripley)
>Rhineland Mysticism (Meister Eckhart)
>Christian Cabala (Johannes Reuchlin)
>Paracelsianism (Paracelsus)
>Rosicrucianism (Robert Fludd)
>Christian theosophy (Jakob Böhme)
>Martinism (Louise Claude de Saint-Martin)
>Swedenborgianism (Swedenborg)
>Magical Idealism (Novalis)
>Romanticism (Baader)
>Anthroposophy (Rudolf Steiner)
>Sophiology (Sergei Bulgakov)
>Christian Hermeticism (Valentin Tomberg)
>Fourth Way (Boris Mouravieff)
>Christian Traditionalism (Jean Borella)
>Divine Love (James Padgett)
And much more, so let's continue to talk about it!

>Resources (WIP)
https://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/cp.htm
https://jacobboehmeonline.com/
https://archive.org/details/awakening-to-divine-wisdom-christian-initiation-into-three-worl-nodrm_202202/mode/1up
https://janelead.org/resources.html
https://archive.org/details/bookofcontemplat00unde/
https://archive.org/details/rudolf-steiner-book-collection/
https://swedenborg.com/bookstore/free-ebooks-downloads/
https://www.giffordlectures.org/books/theosophy-or-psychological-religion
https://www.gornahoor.net/?page_id=47
https://archive.org/details/meditations-on-the-tarot/
https://files.catbox.moe/8n4061.djvu (Meditations on the Tarot)
https://eliasartista.substack.com/
https://passtheword.org
https://catenabible.com/mt/1
https://new-birth.net/
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I got the idea for the idea for the op from this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devekut
I thought it was a neat concept. Btw I'm not the person who usually makes these so hopefully I didn't mess anything up
>>
>>39595544
>the idea for the idea
Yes I'm retarded
Also
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cipactli

https://mythlok.com/cipactli/
This is pretty clearly "leviathan" right? The primordial sea monster
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>Oh you're a universalist? So you think that Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot will all go to Heaven one day?
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>>39595661
Hitler went to heaven right away.
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>>39595529
I think the symbol of the moth is meant to represent the angel (((they))) have captured underground, of which (((they))) torture
>>
>>39595569
>This is pretty clearly "leviathan" right?
two seperate things
>>
>New chart dropped
>>
>>39596713
If you want to momentarily derail Satans plans, simply pray "Lord Jesus Christ, I rebuke Satan and command him to leave." gy2kr
>>
>>39596205
What makes you say that? Lots of Bible scholars say leviathan is simultaneously a mythical primordial beast and a crocodile, and the Aztecs straight up had a primordial crocodile that was killed by God. What's the odds?
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>>39597021
Also, the Aztec myth adds that the croc "repopulated the earth" and "survived the flood" so it sounds like overtime it got conflated with the nephilim and flood narratives which is understandable since I dont think the Aztecs wrote their stuff down until like 1700ad or so
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>>39597021
"Crocodiles" does not mean they are they same thing. Two "primordial beasts" do not mean they are the same thing.

>the Aztec myth adds that the croc "repopulated the earth" and "survived the flood" so it sounds like overtime it got conflated with the nephilim and flood narratives

So you are putting forward that the Aztec myths are related to ancient near eastern flood narratives and nephilim?

Do you have any scholarly research to back that up? Who else is putting this forward, anyone worth listening to?
>>
>>39594384
Doors of the Sea goes into ransom theory a bit.

Honestly just read his NT translation, if you've ever skimmed Gnostic texts and been puzzled about where they're getting things like Archons from, his translation will be a lightbulb moment for you

Ransom seems dumb to modern people but in the context of the NT it makes a lot of sense. Humanity lost its connection to God, became enslaved to the spirits of this world (evil spirits, gods etc), so God became human and liberated us from this, allowing us to become like him. It was the most pro-human moment in history.

Penis Sub theory makes no sense and is imo what you get when you just assume spirits and gods aren't real. This wasn't the view of the early church, e.g. Augustine takes great pains to shit on Roman polytheism in City of God but to him they're just worshipping demons
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>>39595661
I think 'eventually' is the key word in these kinds of discussions
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>>39597521
The afterlife becomes an entertaining thing to think about when you add murderous psychopaths of all kinds, and Universalism. They must have some very interesting activities or punishments that changes their minds and hearts from evil to eventually be saved.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSHQjwr1FEc
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>>39595529
Videos on Gnosis, its various types (SPG, UPG & VPG) and Gnosticism:

https://youtu.be/0F7knBtLsNs
https://youtu.be/260L-DEZVQ0
https://youtu.be/diHf_Tup6tE
>>
>>39595661
Yes, it isn't based on us. It's based on Christ.
Even the Devil will be reconciled. I'll tell them that to push it even further.
>>
so apparently our only copy of Marcion's Canon is in Tertullian's work against him, in which we only have Medieval manuscripts of said work.

Yeah, I can't in good faith replace the NT with Marcion's canon if this is all we got.

Seems I have to discern Marcionism through the Mainstream Canon.
>>
>>39597519
Seconding ransom theory as preferable to penal sub. The exact mechanics of ransom theory aren't clear imo, but it is at the very least infinitely more emotionally satisfying, and it doesn't require the absurdity that God need to perpetrate an injustice to satisfy his own sense of justice before he could forgive humanity.

The downside to ransom theory is that it seems to evoke a more dualist conception of the relationship between God and Satan. Why would God need to respect Satan's claim on humanity if God were truly the absolute authority and Satan were just a disobedient angel? Most Christians find *that* absurd, so they assume the obstacle to forgiveness must be wholly internal to God, hence penal sub.
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>>39597538
Christians aren't perfect either. You think that the final stage of all of this is just going to be self righteous people trying to keep themselves clean for eternity?

God is going to change us.
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>>39598451
well I'd think of it more in the thinking of gods versus Angels. Angels is a bit dimunitiive in this context.

Satan is called the God of this world. He had the world at the time of Paul.

That's not just a messenger angel.

And God keeps his promises. He probably gave Satan the World and had to abide by not Satan's power but by his own promise and law which distributed nations to the gods.
>>
>the solution is that jewish god isnt actually almighty
>jewish gods followers make claim satan controls world in order to cover this fact of reality up
>>
>>39598563
I've had the thought for a while now that I would rather follow an unquestionably good God than an unquestionably almighty God if a choice has to be made.
>>
>>39598563
I only worship the Most High.
It can easily be the case that the Most High created lesser gods and one of them managed to get control of Earth.

And then the Most High steps in to set things right.
>>
If I ended up in Eternal Hell I'd disassociate like a monk during self immolation and pray to the God above the one who sent me to Eternal Hell. The God I know is with me.
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>>39595753
somehow you're mentioning something from the Lore of my RPG that I'm making.

Gold Elves underground control a captured god through sigil prison and have a priesthood around using this god's magic. But they don't worship the god, they worship the Most High but just don't have enough faith in him to actually do miracles by his power.

Where did you get the information that you are posting? I'm surprised to see it here.
>>
>>39598639
NTA but, if they never get around to replying, did you happen to type up your lore on a computer or smart phone recently? I've been noticing spooky stuff like this online for ages now everywhere and I'm still not sure how to explain it. One recent idea is that maybe there are AI bots that talk about stuff relevant to specific users based on their data, sort of like how social media algorithms show stuff they think is relevant to you based on your data, but enhanced with AI. And I actually didn't see that post until you replied to it, so I wonder if there's a program that determines what's visible to people based on their data as well, trying to make it seem like there's a single forum when it's actually split into multiple siloes with permeable boundaries. That would explain why I often notice OP posts magically appearing that are suspiciously relevant to things I've just researched or talked about within earshot of a smartphone.

Or it's just the psychic human hivemind or synchronicity phenomenon or schizo pattern matching on my part doing its thing. But I notice this way more wherever there's technology involved, which makes me lean toward paranoid technodystopia speculation instead.
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>>39598827
yeah I write my lore in Google Docs, I have to move it all onto local.
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>>39597201
>"Crocodiles" does not mean they are they same thing. Two "primordial beasts" do not mean they are the same thing.
>>the Aztec myth adds that the croc "repopulated the earth" and "survived the flood" so it sounds like overtime it got conflated with the nephilim and flood narratives
>So you are putting forward that the Aztec myths are related to ancient near eastern flood narratives and nephilim?
One similarity is nothing, two similarities are coincidence, three is purpose
Nothing I'm saying is contrary to the research, other than the connection itself. You can find scholars and ask their opinions if you want to but just because no scholars have said it doesn't mean it isn't true, that's just an appeal to authority. Atheists can find scholars to validate their worldview, and Muslims and Christians, do you just believe whatever the majority says or do you independently research the material yourself?
I don't think comparative links between religions would be taken seriously by irreligious scholars because obviously it would lend them credibility, and not by religious scholars because they'd see it as granting credibility to the savage Aztec religion (the Roman Catholics didn't want it preserved at all and criticized friar Diego Duran for writing it down).
As a Christian why would it surprise you to see at least SOME overlap between our creation story and the creation stories of other ancient peoples? It should be expected
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>>39599356
Actually I should rephrase: the connection itself is not contrary to the research, it's just absent. Why scholars haven't drawn the connection themselves is what we should both be asking, but that isn't a reason to not consider it by itself.
>>
>>39595529
AQ
Why meow?
>>
>>39598451
>Exact mechanics aren't clear

Yeah this is what I need more clarity on with ransom. I presume its been hashed out endlessly by early saints but I've never looked into it in depth.

God becoming man and resurrecting in some way broke the rule of the Powers but its not obvious how, or how the current situation is specifically different

But the net result is we have a direct connection to the real source of reality and don't have to worry about appeasing random gods and spirits too much

>Why would God need to respect Satan's claim on humanity if God were truly the absolute authority and Satan were just a disobedient angel?

DBH makes a point on this that the early (e.g. dionysius) vision of how reality functioned was that God gave commands that were carried out by a hierarchy of angels, but that they (like us) have the ability to resist God's commands if they so wish (hence fallen angels)

For our existence to have meaning and be more than automatons puppeted by God, he needs to at least allow the possibility of us disobeying him. To maintain this while still rectifying the situation, he chose to become man.

I also think the idea that Satan had a claim on man that God would need to respect makes little sense, to me its more like breaking the hold that Satan and other spirits had on us. But thats just my surface-level reading of it
>>
>>39599384
I don't think it'd be God being limited by Satan, I think it'd be God being limited by his own need to keep with his promises.

IF he sets forth an order, he cannot just break it and lie. If he apportioned the world to princes he has to legally break their hold according to his own set forth order.
>>
>>39597538
I hope that those who are restored earlier are able to help those who will take time.
>>
>>39598438
>Even the Devil will be reconciled.
That's their other go-to "gotcha" question against Universalism. My honest answer would be "I hope so, but I'm not sure what exactly angels are, so I can't say how that would work out."
But then again, if they're part of creation, and Christ redeemed all of creation...
>>
>>39599618

"and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." ( Colossians 1:20)

This is clearly a universal reconciliation of all creation.

I want everyone to be well again. God is the only one who can truly restore both aggressor and victim.
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I'm not trying to do a polemic or gloat.
I just want to post this;

I was a baptist for years , then this August I discovered Apokatastasis and slowly began to embrace it.

When I accepted Apokatastasis it was like a light switch turned on my soul. Night and day difference. I don't know how I honestly ever believed that people were going to go into eternal hell for failing to apprehend a set of truth claims.

Thanks be to God for his universal salvation, it is the only Gospel.
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>>39599723
I believe in it, but only in the afterlife state.
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>>39599723
Did you tell anybody at your baptist church? I hear some are very protective of their doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment.
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>>39599781
I never got into a church and stayed long. Never was baptized as an adult either. Still have to find a church.

So I haven't told anyone at a physical church building besides my family in father's house, I've been in isolation.
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>>39599723
>I was a baptist for years , then this August I discovered Apokatastasis and slowly began to embrace it.
I hope you know, there's no actual inherent contradiction between being a general baptist and believing in apokatastasis. Doesnt baptist just mean you believe in believers baptism and not infant baptism? I know there's like a gajillion baptist denominations that add extra stuff though
>>
>>39599850
Yeah of course, I just meant 'standard American Evangelical' really.

Of course technically you can be a universalist baptist.
>>
>>39599790
>Still have to find a church.
Ask the Holy Spirit for guidance, if you haven't already. For what it's worth I've found the Anglican church (particularly the Anglo-catholic style) to give me the room I need to grow. Went to a baptist church before that and it wasn't for me.
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>>39598827

Yes, the net is ran by bots and/or demons. They can read minds.
>>
On the topic of fallen angels being saved, I've always found this text to be interesting

1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

I know I'm reading into the text, it isn't exactly explicit, but what would be the point of judging angels if they're all already damned? "We can eat wherever you want (btw there's only Burger King around here)". That doesn't seem like much of an actual choice or judgement. Furthermore, I would think Christians would be more open to mercy and forgiveness than to sadistically send all of them to hell.

I really like the idea of "neutral" angels. A lot of people repeat the idea that if an angel is good then it simply won't interact with man at all, or it will make clear that it's acting on God's behalf, but if you look at man, even Christians, it's more complicated than that. Like, do you as a fallen human honestly just obey God in 100% of your actions? In theory you could, but I doubt any of us do. It's just complicated.
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>>39595529
Woman dies and realizes she’s not in hell for being an atheist, feels love and thinks she’s hallucinating…

https://youtu.be/n0q0tL6ix0w?si=Pnn8z8c5BiQOPd4E
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>>39599723
>“The person who does not believe [apocatastasis] is an ox, but the person who teaches it is an ass.”
C. G. Barth (1799–1862)
>>
>>39599926
I believe these mystical experiences are for the one who experiences them, not for the sake of evangelizing. We have other tools for evangelism, like the historicity of the New Testament and the person of Jesus. If I use my experiences to influence your relationship with God, then I'm now the medium through which you experience God. You should be seeking your own experiences.
But since it's a woman, I tend to not believe it. They are very impressionable and prone to attention seeking.
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>>39599901
>I would think Christians would be more open to mercy and forgiveness than to sadistically send all of them to hell.
I agree.
>I really like the idea of "neutral" angels...
Again I guess this depends a lot on what angels "are" and how they operate. If they operate like we men do then I imagine there must be more of a spectrum. I thought about these kinds of things when I was researching the Marian Apparitions, where they often seem to be edifying to people in some way (ie. healings and prophecy, the spread of the church) yet at the same time they seem strangely ominous and wrong (like this idea that Mary is holding back Jesus from unleashing wrath on the Earth, that's surely not correct). Stuff like that is very hard for me to categorically throw into the "evil" basket or the "good" basket.

There's actually a vidya game I played last year that's (very) loosely based on the Book of Enoch that presented the fallen angels as sympathetic in the sense that some of them did desire good things, but in a deeply disordered way. That would make sense to me if they're anything like we men are.
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>>39599964
>loosely based on the Book of Enoch
El Shaddai Ascension of the Metatron?
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>>39600263
Yes. I played the HD remaster. It's kino in a goofy yet compelling kind of way. Pretty good action game, too.
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>>39599953

>makes valid point

>cannot control mental bowls enough not to shiz it up at the end.
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>>39600553
>Namefag gets offended over attention seeking criticism
Poetry
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>>39598639
it's part something I've heard from a Charls Carroll when he mentioned Neon Genesis: Evangelion. he talked about how there's a lot of occult imagery in Japanese culture and anime, that in Evangelion, there's an angel trapped underground. the moth connection is schizo-babble, inspired by a moth's appeared, as if sapped of life, in contrast to a butterfly. a cicada might be a better connection
I haven't seen Evangelion yet, but if a similar story beat like that came to you when writing your RPG, there could be truth to it. I've nooticed that in a lot of fiction, the themes often have origins from something real. perhaps that's part of inspiration
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>>39601065
I didn't know that. Never watched the show.
Thank you for the response.
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>>39598827
unironically pic related
I have schizo theories where I could suggest that oil is the blood of ancient nephilim/demons. burning it provides electricity, which powers the sigils in the motherboards. le algorithm might be more spiritual than what it seems on the surface.
>I often notice OP posts magically appearing that are suspiciously relevant to things I've just researched or talked about within earshot of a smartphone
in personal anecdote; I've noticed that my hand is often guided towards the threads that I believe the Holy Spirit deems important for me. even coming to 4chan wasn't really on my radar, not until a kind of inspiration pushed me here after I asked the universe to be guided towards truth. I wouldn't be surprised if you're experiencing something similar, or if le algorithm is listening to you. youtube is particularly egregious about that
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>>39601157
oops
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>>39595753
>>39598639
>>39598827
>>39601065
>>39601083

I have this story I am currently working on and off on that as you can see in picrel, adds up to 666, in the Satanic Gematria cipher no less.

WTF is the implications of this? It might be a coincidence, but it feels weird. I can change the name, but I feel if it has bad 'juju' then it is not going to change anything.

Note that this story is very light pg-13 at the worst. It is mostly horror. It revolves around this bread obsessed mantis named Manny and his run-ins with the paranormal and weird in a breadloaf shaped dollhouse on a property this is a magnet for it.

Why tf this work and not something edgier? Was I influenced by a demon to craft this story, and if so why? Should I stop all work on it?
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>>39601264
I wouldn't find much significance in the results of this "Satanic Gematria cipher"
>This numbering system adds 35 to each letter in the simple ordinal system, A=36,B=37,C=38…. Thus the value of the phrase SATANIC GEMATRIA is 666 in Satanic gematria. Probably because someone got the bright idea of recognizing that at 15 letters, the simple value of 141+(15×35) is 666. It is regarded as a joke cipher name by those that use it.

Meanwhile "Manny the Mantis" checks out just fine in all of the standard non-joke approaches to Gematria.

That said, it's unfortunate that 666 has been given such strong negative associations, since it's a neat number mathematically, being the sum of all the numbers from 1 to 36 (and 36 is of course 6 times 6).

I recently learned that 666 actually shows up in a few other places in the Bible, once as a count of the number of the "sons of Adonikam" in Ezra 2, which interestingly is instead given as 667 in Nehemiah 7, and then there are two other places where it shows up, both a count of the weight of gold King Solomon received yearly in talents. Oddly specific, yeah? Maybe Solomon also thought it was a neat number mathematically, though unfortunately the way he used it just served to make his excesses more memorable, I guess.

I also came across the claim that the basic hebrew word meaning "bad" or "evil" shows up exactly 666 times in the old testament, which would be big if true, though the two counts I found at a glance are 663 according to this website: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h7451/kjv/wlc/0-1/ and 667 according to this website: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_7451.htm
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>>39601457
*I recently learned that 666 actually shows up in a few other places in the Bible aside from the Book of Revelation
>>
I <3 /ceg/.
>>
https://youtu.be/watch?v=7-J6NgKnWAo
Watched this yesterday. Pretty good documentary on Eternal Conscious Torment versus Ultimate Restoration. Also watched his other doc on Christian Nationalism, it was solid too (and had interviews with Chris Hedges and David Hart, two people I quite like).
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>>39601574
Thank you for this.
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>>39599723
I like posts like this, and all posts refering to Apokatastasis or Universalism. ECT was a childhood plague of mine that still has a small claim on me, just by virtue of having learned it so early. Reading other people's xp gains helps loosen the old claim I think.
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>>39601574
Seconding that this is a pretty good documentary.
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>>39598563
Based and Whitehead-pilled. Omnipotence is an erroneous idea imposed on scripture, in spite of scripture specifically stating God cannot do certain things. Even the most orthodox theologians usually have to qualify omnipotence in at least some way, and a qualified omnipotence is utter nonsense. The omni-god is not the God revealed to us in Christ
>>
I'm trying to figure out if God the Father is Yahweh or not.

Only quotes of Marcion's Gospel extensively come from Medieval Manuscript(s) of Tertullian's Work against Marcion. So I cannot in Good Faith replace the NT with his canon.

Valentinianism uses the Mainstream Canon, so I may look there since the Nag Hammadi Valentinian texts are earlier ( 4th century ).



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