>>197626
Oof. However will esoteric judo dweebs recover?

This guy sounds like Spongebob so therefore I will not listen to him.

>in terms of getting an opponent to a ground, wrestling beats judo and it's not even close
I mean yeah, if I tackle someone with my whole body and we both land on the ground I guess so.

>>197626
>LOOK GUYS THIS YOUTOOOMER SAID JUDO BAD
This faggot got beat up by fucking icy Mike

File: 1715272921549723.webm (2.93 MB, 405x720)

2.93 MB WEBM

Why does this guy love sucking MMA and Wrastlin' cock so much? I feel like every video he's put up is just him explaining how MMA, K-Boxing and Wrestling is the solution for anything related to combat sports.

Here's the whole video:
>bro judo sucks because the two judokas dont waste time fucking around on the ground instead of getting back up trying to score an ippon so it has a bad scoring system
>bro judo sucks against wrestling because every wrestler will just use double legs and they cant do hip throws good (even though can)
>bro judo sucks against bjj because they dont scramble on the ground to get a pin
>bro judo sucks in irl street fightz because they'll take their coat off and theyll just get back up every time you throw them, also every body in a street fight is a professional counter attacker to any judo throws so youll fall on your face and knees
>bro judo sucks in mma because... well it just does okay!
>thanks 4 watching please watch my 30 other videos on wrestling, boxing and mma

It's like he doesn't understand when you throw someone in Judo you're supposed to be in position to pin them, not fucking scramble and try to fight for positioning. His whole view is like trying to put football against tennis or air hockey and say how football's point scoring system and techniques don't work.

>>197632
It’s crazy how all the people who think judo sucks don’t actually train it. Then you have guys like sensei Seth who originally considered judo to be “c-tier” then actually trained it and completely changed his mind.
https://youtu.be/qd6l1vNAn7A?feature=shared

Judo is the foundation of all submission grappling today

Most people think Judo sucks because there's a relative lack of a developed middle in a lot of countries compared to wrestling, and they never get chance to interact with people who are training for Olympic competition.

You can pull of wrestling moves in sparring after 1 session

You can't pull of any judo moves unless the stars are perfectly aligned and you spent years mastering the intricate elusive throws daily

>>197638
>koshi guruma? Heh, good luck pulling that esoteric crap on me
>OH WOW WRESTLING HEAD AND ARM THROW SO SIMPLE AND EFFICIENT UNLIKE JUDO

he said a wazaari is worth 10 points
I know exactly what that faggot did is he went on to reddit and saw wazaari with a 10 next to it and thought that meant how many points it was worth rather than how many seconds in osaekomi it takes to get the score

he doesn't even understand on a layman spectators level the rules of judo and he's going to make a 16 minute video DEBOOONKING

>>197640
I didn’t watch the video did he actually say that? Lmfao.

>>197635
Its the foundation of Catch Wrestling? I think you are wrong.

File: american.jpg (48 KB, 746x315)

48 KB JPG

>>197643
catch wrestling doesn't even exist really but even then it's impossible to deny the influence judo has had in all grappling arts
it was already in the anglosphere for over 100 years
and we know this because we know teddy roosevelt was a practitioner

>>197626
>armchair violence
Opinion discarded. This guys takes are always fucking retarded. Constantly comparing shit he doesn't even fucking train. Plus, I am not sorry but I am not taking a single word from a gangly little twig boy who has never even done anything in all this fucking time to improve his physique/athleticism. I don't believe this faggot trains at all. Not just martial arts, this queer doesn't even do fucking calisthenics.

>>197646
>all grappling arts
there you go again, look at Collegiate wrestling

>>197653
what about it?

>>197650
he has a video saying you don't need to wear wraps or gloves when you do bag work and if you do it's because you're punching wrong

counter point: if you can get away with doing an actual training session on a bag without wraps at the very least you have really weak punches

File: IMG_0546.png (136 KB, 561x561)

136 KB PNG

OH NO JUDO SISTERS WE GOT WAAAAY TO COCKY!

>>197626
Everything he said is right regardless if he's a homosexual. No other style has this many redditfags sucking it up as the ultimate perfect combat art than judo. Fucking karate produced more UFC champs than judo ever has

>>197658
BJJ is THE martial art with the most redditors on it's dick.

>>197658
judo has produced all UFC champions

>>197658
Anything you can do to make nogi judo work is against the rules dipshit. You can totally still get the right grips to do throws but you would need to be allowed to grab skin. Even on fit/muscular people you can dig your fingers in and bunch up enough skin to throw someone but you would immediately get DQd. You can't grab at the throat, the clavicle, or near the kidneys where you can bunch up the love handles. No clawing action allowed at all. Anything you could grab, you can't. So thanks for pointing out that nogi judo is too violent for ufc captain obvious.

>>197658
I kinda don't like the constant judo wank either but the reason for this is judo fags make way more money just doing judo. MMA fighters are a few steps above carnies. They make more money losing boxing matches.

File: Gokyo-no-waza.jpg (136 KB, 800x683)

136 KB JPG

>>197663
I was about to go through this and make a list of which moves would or wouldn't work without a gi, but then I realize I can only find about 3 of them if that many which would explicitly require a gi and can't also be done with simple over/under hooks and arm drags instead

>>197671
Sure but every time a judo guy tried MMA back in Pride every single one of em got BTFO and there they even let them wear their gi and that was when the meta for MMA wasn't even optimized.

>>197663
>it's too deadly for sports

Now you're parrotting kung fu fags lmao. Also no gi judo doesn't fucking exist. Whatever you're thinking of is just shitty wrestling.

>>197671
Petr Yan and Stipe have a boxing base. You don't see boxers move to MMA but no one ever doubts how good boxing is for MMA. Fucking nobody ever grinds judo preparing for their fights like people do for wrestling or BJJ

>>197674
>every time a judo guy tried MMA back in Pride every single one of em got BTFO
Why are you making shit up?
https://youtu.be/WlNBh_hjxSk?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/ovdMFKOsBJg?feature=shared

>>197678
>9W8L

Yeah I mean what I said. And this was the best judo had to offer as well. Olympic gold medalist ends up being a tomato can. And that was when they still had an edge over other fighters not being caught up to grappling. Try that today when everyone wrestles now

>>197640
Post time stamp

>>197677
>Fucking nobody ever grinds judo preparing for their fights like people do for wrestling or BJJ
because judo is already omnipresent, it's the mother sauce
name some grappling techniques used in MMA that didn't originate in judo?
morote gari, ogoshi, uchimata, koshi guruma, juji gatame, ude garami, ashi sankaku jime, hadaka jime, kata gatame, mufuggin ashi garami
all the shit you take for granted thinking it makes your MMA grappling special is just lifted straight from judo and renamed by narcissists insisting they came up with it first

even MUH DAGESTANI SAMBO. Sambo is literally just judo with a soviet coat of paint on it

>>197680
>Royce Gracie lost to a tomato can
>proceeded to cry and shit himself about it until the loss was changed to a no contest
What’s that say about BJJ?

I'd like to state for the record I left a comment on the video a few hours ago calling out his bullshit take and he deleted it
he's only allowing people that agree with him in the comments section

>>197688
lol, lmao even. I should have guessed the non-fighting martial arts YouTuber can’t even handle the sting of a negative comment

>>197643
Catch wrestling isn't as influencial as you think it is, the biggest thing it had going for it was the ruleset. They had none of todays modern useful moves, it was mainly pull on something until they admit defeat, there was no submission techniques other than things even toddlers try doing

>>197686
Royce isn't the only BJJ rep and Gracies are a joke to most BJJ competitors. Royce wasn't even the best Gracie guy. You don't even have to look at UFC. In Pride you saw BJJ fighters dominate at top level. You can't say the same for judo.

>>197698
>NOOOO DOESNT COUNT
every time

>>197685
With this logic you can fucking say judo took everything from wrestling. You're fucking wrong. People have boxing coach, wrestling coach, BJJ coach. No one ever hires a dedicated judo coach. You're the narcissist fag for trying to steal credit from wrestling and BJJ for judo. And mentioning sambo isn't any better for judo's case when some muslim sambo guys show better judo in fights than any dedicated judokas ever did since MMA was invented. It just goes to show you that judo's training and system is bad for fighting.

>>197699
>0 champions

BJJ is better than judo

>>197700
>With this logic you can fucking say judo took everything from wrestling
no you can't

they origins of jujitsu in japan are well documented, as is the proliferation of wrestling and it's very much a relationship moving in one direction
you're just avin a laff if you're over here trying to say western martial arts influenced eastern ones to a degree anywhere near what eastern did for western
and btw wrestlers don't really have that same level of tribalism bjjobbers do because they don't feel so insecure about what they know, so they're perfectly happy to admit when they took something from judo
"here's an old judo move" if you've never heard your wrestling coach say that you've never wrestled

>>197701
>>197658
>0 champions
>Fucking karate produced more UFC champs than judo ever has

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Frye
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Severn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dricus_du_Plessis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_B%C5%82achowicz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabib_Nurmagomedov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitor_Belfort

>>197701
>zero champions
Stop making shit up
>>196906
>>196928
>>196936

>>197702
BJJ fags will use literally anything. It's the least limited form of grappling. You can walk in and wrestlefuck people if you want.

It's judofags that are constantly taking shots at wrestling and BJJ

>>197643
>>197653
Collegiate wrestling may have descended from catch wrestling, but it's a few steps removed. Daniel Cormier was an NCAA All-American and wrestling Olympian and had no idea catch wrestling even existed until he fought Josh Barnett. Not to mention Greco-Roman has nothing to do with catch wrestling and arguably is the most successful wrestling style in MMA historically.

>>197706
>It's judofags that are constantly taking shots at wrestling and BJJ
What reality do you live in? Judo general is constantly inundated with drooling retards from other sports or those that don’t train at all. I’m willing to be bjj general does not have the same problem.

>>197706
>BJJ fags will use literally anything
because BJJ doesn't actually work as advertised so they have no choice but to use moves from other arts to compensate
wrestlers don't need to practice BJJ to become great wrestlers
judoka don't need to practice BJJ to become great judoka
Buttscooting Jizz Junkies need to go out of their way to practice judo and wrestling to cover the holes in their shitty sport

>>197705
>don frye
Wrestler
>dan savern
Wrestler
>DDP
Kickboxer
>khabib
Wrestler
>vitor belfort
BJJ
>fedor
Sambo
>jacare
BJJ
>werdum
BJJ
>karo
Only judoka and hes a tomato can

You're digging a hole for yourself

>>197719
>all black belts in judo
>NOOOOOOO DOESNT COUNT
every. time.

Rekt
https://youtu.be/yjQOJh9lpCg?si=Ipm4QarWt18yYt_A

>>197632
martial arts with less rules are better than ones with more rules

>>197688
Somewhat unrelated but have you noticed how all these martial arts youtubers are boomer tier when it comes to interacting with the internet. Multiple people will change the name and tittle of their videos to gain more views. Ramsey Dewey just made a community post promoting a 2 year old video to get extra attention on it. I don't doubt that one of these guys would delete comments like that. Something about it rubs me the wrong way.

>>197655
You don't though. Karate masters condition their hands to the point they can punch hard objects full force

>>197685
Judo didnt invent anything.. grappling existed during the dawn of time and breaking a limb or choking someone existed just as long

The point is, time is limited, and no one wants to study something for years, risk their health and then end up in a worse position when you could have just done wrestling or bjj and gotten better results

It's like if you do aikido for self defence instead of boxing

>>197741
Judo doesn't take years to be effective.

>>197741
It discovered the triangle choke, kneebar and co-discovered the heel hook while a japanese judoka was developing it with a student that is claimed to be a bjj practitioner from brazil. There was a book written in 1905 called jiujitsu vs wrestling where a prominent judoka and prominent wrestler at the time share moves, they say a lot of the pins are very much the same, but when the judoka showed the armbar the wrestler mocked it saying something like, “I cant see how someone would hold my arm down if I just curled it” not an exact quote but still. There were also knee reaps and other submissions the judoka showed that the wrestler had never seen before

>>197719
Someone asked DonFrye if he would rather have taken bjj or judo and his answer was why would I take a watered down version of judo

>>197708
It does, there are multiple threads on this board just bashing it. And trying to disprove it. And other grappling arts, but it generally goes BJJ > Judo > wrestling in terms of who is getting shit on.

>>197709
This is because nogi BJJ is more concerned with grappling and it's evolution than being some MA purist. Grappling is grappling, I'll take what works and discard the rest.

Wanking judo/wrestling like they are some perfect art with no holes is juvenile.

>>197754
>nogi BJJ is more concerned with grappling and it's evolution
>evolution
People need to stop acting like nogi is the final frontier of grappling. Nogi has its own sport-specific idiosyncrasies just like every other grappling sport.

>>197755
Sure, I'll agree it's flawed but it's pushing that frontier. It needs to implement better stalling penalties for one.

As someone interested in grappling in it's entirety it's more interesting to me than hyper focusing on one art that's also bogged down with rules/Olympic committees. I can, for the most part, use whatever grappling techniques I fucking want in nogi.

>>197757
Yet you felt the need to call it nogi bjj

There's the issue, bjj tries to lay claim to everything everywhere all at once even retroactively
There's a reason Don johnaher uses Japanese terminology in his systems
He's not trying to be an esoteric fancy boy, it's because he drew from japanese inatructional literature and they already defined the positions

>Theres no high levei judoka with any success in MMA
>n-no F-Fedor doesnt c-count.

Lmao.

>>197769
>the judo black belts all those champions have don’t count because…THEY JUST DONT OK

>>197770
It's not even just a matter of being a black belt.
Fedor was part of the russian national team for Judo.

You dont get into a national team in a Olympic sport as competitive as Judo by accident.

>>197773
I think people don't quite understand how much bigger judo is globally than BJJ
And the fact that judo is a subsidized sport, even in Brazil
If you are great at judo you can make a living doing judo, BJJ only has MMA as an outlet to make money

And earlier I saw another comment kind of ignorant saying that people don't train judo specifically for MMA
But everybody understands that when Gene LeBelle has a strong case of made for the Mount Rushmore of influential figures

>>197778
>LeBell

One of my go to day dreams is wondering what the landscape of martial arts in general would've looked like if Karo hadn't been so crazy. He had a good shot at being the GSP to LeBell and Gokor's Danaher.

>>197675
>Now you're parrotting kung fu
Nta but they aint wrong, clawing or targeting vital areas is against the rules & UFC historically had to tone shit down because a bunch of congressman were trying to get them shut down for being violent bloodsport so... Don't be retarded and act like head hunting is so much easier than grabbing at the throat or love handles.

File: wanderlei silva.gif (1.01 MB, 230x209)

1.01 MB GIF

>listening to a faggot who has never ever fought
lol! There is a plethora of faggots on youtube who have zero competition footage, barely any sparring footage, zero accolades, zero medals, zero real world experience, but believe they are martial arts experts because they can bring a phone and a tripod to a gym. There is no point watching people like this, they offer nothing of value, and have no real experience beyond watching and circlejerking other youtube faggots.

>>197804
Why are you crying though?

>mfw reading this thread
WTF? I expected better from you guys.

I box and wrestled in high school, but anyone that shits on judo is a fucking dumbass. Judo has consistently tested itself since day 1 and has been widely adapted for the CQC of armies like Defendu, Krav Maga and especially WW2 combatives.

Even fucking Joe Rogan who spouts idiocy plenty of times acknowledges how fucking good Judo can be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq729WQyqpk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7x34p8G7Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b3d0rkl0yc

Judo, wrestling, BJJ, whatever you train, so long as it's a type of wrestling/grappling that requires live practice and utilizing leverage & technique, it's a non-bullshit style.

This is the dumbest thread I've seen in a long while. I can list every fucking grappling style of its weaknesses like competitive judo not allowing leg attacks anymore and not allowing more groundwork/submissions or Greco-Roman not having leg attacks as well. Or BJJ doing butt scooting and not giving more points for takedowns/throws/trips.

No style will be 100% complete whether striking or grappling. It's why cross-training is a must and you take the best elements for your own use.

I don't deify martial arts founders but I have nothing but the upmost respect for Jigoro Kano. The dude took all the various techniques of Jujutsu styles, preserved them, and applied them to be tested as safe as possible. No Judo means no BJJ or Sambo (at least how we know it). I shudder to think about a world without Judo and its derivatives.

People have this obsession with nogi as if outside of combat sports where everyone is gamifying the rules, people just go on fight naked. You can still do plenty judo grips on regular clothing. Couldn't believe how the dude went "what if i just zip up the jacket". Nigga a judoka can still grab a handful of that jacket and use it as a makeshift lapell no problem. He can also just grip collar, shoulder, elbow, neck, no problem also. The better argument would be about wrist control if anything.
fuck gi, or nogi.
Give me regular tshirt grappling

>>197891
My dad told me something that kind of stuck with me when it came to gripping and when someone has no shirt on. He told me to sink your grip into their pecs, traps, neck muscles, and scapula. Literally dig your fingers into their muscle and grab onto bone.

This is pretty hardcore and I wouldn't recommend doing this in Randori as you'll probably end up hurting someone. But, good to know.

>>197893
I dunno.
I see the logic in it, but the human body is kinda too slippery to do that kind of shit.
In a scenario where, yes everyone is shirtlesss, you're probably better off going for underhooks, overhooks and whatnot.
The usual stuff.

>>197635
>>197635
There are 2 main lineages of Submission Grappling:

- Judo which in itself spawned off BJJ and Sambo

- Catch-as-catch-can wrestling which was partially derived from the Indo-Persian wrestling of Pehlvani which has submissions and holds from Malla Yuddha as well as a synthesis of the folk wrestling variations in Britain and Ireland

BJJ and Sambo also took from Catch. Mitsuyo Maeda competed in CACC tournaments and most likely incorporated lessons learned from it and later George Gracie (the forgotten brother) cross-trained with Catch guys in Brazil and even competed against the founder of Luta Livre (Brazilian style of catch without pins), Euclydes Hatem. Takeo Yano, one of the main pioneers of BJJ's development also competed and trained alongside Hatem.

Sambo's leglocks were from Catch which was well documented. And the obvious judo influence is there (along with other grappling styles that the Russians were exposed to).

There's instances of Catch wrestlers trouncing Judoka as well as Judoka trouncing Catch wrestlers. In the end, it's all grappling and only a fucking moron would vaunt the superiority of 1 interpretation of wrestling over the other. All grapplers and styles interacted and cross-fertilized throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. This is still evident today with how US BJJ infused collegiate in their matwork.

>>197764
I mean yeah because that's where I go to train.....I can't go to a judo gym and do the same stuff. I'm actually 100% for just calling it submission grappling moving forward. I don't care about muh styles, legacy, or honour or whatever. I just want to grapple people with subs with as few faggy committees deciding what I can and can't do as possible. Currently that is nogi BJJ.

>>197893
retard

>>197895
Also I forgot to add that even Luta Livre incorporated Judo (and obviously BJJ from their exchanges and challenge matches) via Roberto Leitao.

So in Brazil, you have 2 styles that were created from the 2 main lineages of Submission Grappling I listed.

With BJJ, Judo was the primarily element with a dash of Catch here and there. With Luta Livre, it was the inverse, Catch wrestling was the base with later infusions from Judo & BJJ.

>>197894
>the human body is kinda too slippery to do that kind of shit.
No, it really isn't. Not if you have good grip strength.

>>197903
Explain how one actually pressure trains grabbing someone's fucking collarbone/ribs and throwing them. It can be hard enough to get throws normally and you are somehow going to plunge your hands deep into someone's flesh while they are grappling you?

File: Basically Just Judo.jpg (119 KB, 680x1483)

119 KB JPG

the facts are in at this point
bjj is judo, it's not and never will be a distinct art
they can choose to not follow kodokan guidelines but that doesn't change what it is because judo is THE WAY
there's a sport called brazilian jiujitsu, just like there's a sport we would call olympic judo, and there's kosen judo, and freestyle judo, but the art itself is judo all the same
the rules of the sport simply informs the areas you focus your training, it's impossible to be great at everything all at once so you need to pick something to start with
say people stayed in their prime health for 50 years and could really dedicate that time to training, the guy doing "judo" would start with his stand up first, the guy doing bjj would start with his newaza, and in 50 years time they'd be identical grapplers because they would've had enough time to master it all. The title you give yourself is just an expression of your specialty. Different routes headed towards the same peak.
and as judo is a WAY under the principles of minimum effort, maximum efficiency, and mutual welfare and benefit. BJJ still follows the same principles, it follows the way of judo and never deviated because it is judo.

I wish I could find the supply of copium pedro valente is huffing though, lmao his lies and story changes every time it gets challenged and people come with receipts
>helio learned judo from the japanese
>actually his brother learned it from the japanese and he learned it from his brother
>actually they were both self taught by watching it
>actually they invented it
the current lie?
>actually they were historians dedicated to preserving pre-meji era samurai fighting techniques and THAT is what BJJ really is
0 evidence samurai ever practiced any martial art called jiujitsu because there was no such thing yet. Kano is the one that originally assembled various grappling techniques into a formalized system, so now the cope is well ackshually kano didn't do that, the gracies are the ones that did it

>>197905
I'm far from a Gracie nuthugger and I loathe BJJ dickriders, but I disagree with this as well.

BJJ derived itself from judo groundwork and submissions but in a street fighting and Vale Tudo format. It dealt with dealing with boxing (the early Gracie and BJJ pioneers also cross-trained in boxing like a picture of the late Carlson Gracie Sr.) and strikes in general when closing the distance.

There was always Judo infusions throughout BJJ's historical development. It's well attested that not only did Japanese emigrants like Geo Omori, Takeo Yano, and the Ono brothers were instrumental in spreading newaza via judo, there were Brazilians who interacted with judoka like the Ezekiel choke (sode guruma jime) named after a Brazilian judoka who competed in the Olympitcs, Ezequiel Paraguassu.

Oswaldo Alves and George Mehdi both went to Japan and trained under legendary judoka like Masahiko Kimura and Isao Okano; both of whom knew newaza quite well. In fact, if you look at Okano's Vital Judo Grappling Techniques book, it's very similar to BJJ ground-fighting. When they returned to Brazil, they transmitted what they learned.

Even the late Rolls Gracie Sr. cross-trained in judo (as well as sambo and freestyle wrestling) to develop his ground-game. The triangle choke was popularized from the guard after Rolls saw a judo book that depicted it.

However, what really differentiates BJJ from Judo is the transitions. People always harp about Position before Submission in what defines BJJ. I disagree. In order to go from A to C, the B is essential and the way the Brazilians developed it is what makes it distinctly their contribution.

Judo did not test out concepts like ground-and-pound, dirty boxing, and other rough methods because it was against their cultural mindset and not how their fighting styles was. Even judo's atemi waza (which is sadly ignored) did not update itself to things like Muay cut kicks to the thighs/calves which can paralyze movement.

>>197907
I think you're agreeing with me
as I said the sport informs the way it's practiced. the supposed bjj practitioners weren't doing anything proprietary, they were studying and using judo just in a different environment

and of course its impossible to see what the day to day training room was really like but I would imagine 100 or more years ago they were practicing atemi waza more too since this stuff predates things like kickboxing and even karate for that matter and those skills had to come from somewhere

>>197907
Continued:

The Gracies, the Japanese emigrants, and Brazilians who learned early judo were in constant challenge matches throughout the early half of the 20th century. This gave them invaluable experience in testing out what techniques would work and how to address the context of struggling with a guy raining down rabbit punches and elbows as you struggle to get a grip on him. Hence, the Transition is what is missing in Judo compared to BJJ.

The old school BJJ actually had a lot of stand-up grappling and self-defense techniques very akin to judo's goshin jutsu. And of course, takedowns and throws compared to modern butt-scooting. Whatever range of combat and what type of weapons (fist, kick, elbow, knee) is being utilized by an opponent, BJJ honed itself to know how to defend one's self when setting themselves up for the Positioning so that they can jockey for the opportunity to slap on a joint-lock or choke. Meanwhile, while their opponent is bitterly resisting in-between the positioning and submission phases, they can always de-transition back to a course of better advantage for their safety so they can seek the opportunity to get their back or catch an exposed limb.

>>197909
I do agree on many points. Even Deoclecio Paulo, a disciple of Oswaldo Fadda, one of the major non-Gracie red belts who advocated foot-locks was quoted in saying that the only difference of BJJ and Judo were the rule sets.

I'm just being nuanced that BJJ took the newaza and submission aspect of Judo, commercialized the hell out of it and shaped it for the rough-and-tumble environment of Brazil's machoism.

What frustrates me about Judo is that somebody needs to revamp the atemi-waza curriculum and make sure it's practiced. Yeah judo as a sport is primarily going to be a focus, but the self-defense aspects shouldn't be neglected. Nihon adapted Muay Thai and mixed it with Karate, Kenpo, & Boxing (all of which are non-Japanese origin as well since the first 2 are from Okinawa which was its own thing) to create Japanese Kickboxing. And they've produced some phenomenal Kickboxers (and Nak Muays since a lot of J-kickboxers go to Thailand to compete) so they incorporate stuff like chap koh (Muay clinching/neck-wrestling with knees and elbows); things judo never encountered before as well as shin kicks which inflict more damage than ones utilizing the foot, instep, heel, balls, and toes.

>>197911
The collier brothers bill themselves at being "Not Your Momma's Judo" so you get to see them trying standing stuff, but its very far from the classic atemi waza you see in the old curriculum.
https://youtu.be/D5CcbGKUAv0

it's also y'kknow very "made for movies" stuff seeing they have direct contant with stunt people (they worked on the John Wick series)

>>197911
the way it all works out for me is
judo is the martial art
submission grappling is a skill within the martial art
BJJ is a sport variant of judo
you can do submission grappling without any of the judo framework, and that's what guys in MMA do by the way, they aren't doing BJJ. They might be learning to grapple from someone holding BJJ rank but they aren't really doing it, they're just learning some skills from it
and you can do go BJJ with no formal BJJ training too in any division you want. College wrestler? go sign up for expert division in BJJ, you're allowed to do that, in fact you're expected to do that. Which I think is the proof that BJJ is the defined by competition rules and not the art

more and more people are rejecting the politics and the lies, and I give credit to a lot of brazilians refusing to wear that red bar on their belts which becomes more common. Declaring themselves as students of the art holistically, not this weird niche variant of it
if you get your black belt from murillo at unity you receive a plain black mizuno belt. If you want to wear it to compete in IBJJF you need to wrap white athletic tape around one end because they demand the bar, not the art.
I reject the bar also and just use a plain belt. I'm never going to get a certified kodokan judo black belt because I really don't want to go through the whole process, and I could register my rank with IBJJF because my gym is now chartered with them but fuck that, I don't need to pay a fee to some random assholes to have them recognize me.
I would consider myself a student of the art of judo even though I'm not officially moving through their track

>>197915
Lots of people modernized judo techniques with striking like Nagasu Do.

You can still retain the atemi waza, but add in stuff from bare-knuckle boxing, Muay Thai, Lethwei, etc. that Judo did not encounter or was familiar with in the 1880s to 1940s.

>>197917
Fedor is the true successor of Judo's Atemi Waza.
Big heavy collision with the overhead right to force the kuzushi, trip them up, pin them and then destroy the opposition with ground and pound

>>197919
Prime Fedor was truly a force of nature. When he went to the Netherlands for 3 months to train under Johan Vos, he learned invaluable techniques. I mean look at his fight with Cro Cop; you had Fedor launch a high kick while CC went into the guard; that match is the quintessential essence of what MMA is.

Before Fedor injured his back and declined, he would use that overhand right (and later Dutch-style low kicks and knees thanks to Vos) to chip away at opponents and then close the distance. He was quite tactical and explosive in RINGS and PRIDE.

Why do you faggots still argue about individual martial arts when MMA has existed for decades? Are you guys retarded?

>>197921
>Why care about boxing?
>Why bother with Muay Thai?
>Why should Greco-Roman Wrestling be around?
>Why even have Freestyle Wrestling?
Because get this, different sports focus on different things.

That's how stupid you sound. I love MMA because you can combine everything from various styles but the individual rule sets and competition for grappling and striking have their own audiences. MMA striking does not have the caliber of boxing footwork, combos, and head defense because competitors have to worry about takedowns as well as kicks and clinching. Greco-Roman and Freestyle is about control and executing takedowns to have the opponent out of bounds or holds on the mat.

Judo, Sport Sambo and BJJ (barring nogi obviously) all require a form of jacket which makes them distinct in sport. Judo has throws & sweeps as well as pins, chokes, and armlocks. Sport Sambo allows everything Judo has (but omits chokes) while retaining leglocks. BJJ allows every type of joint-lock, choke, and pain compliance moves but pins don't count (though you can always modify them for a submission if done properly) and don't score much on the throws/takedown aspect.

>>197922
Except nobody's talking about them as an individual sport but pitting them directly against each other as if we didn't already get the answer to all those questions over 30 years ago.

>>197925
you're not saying what I think you're saying, right?
you're not saying "bjj is the best because royce gracies brother money laundered from investors by hand picking random assholes for his brother to fight", right?

>>197927
Your eternal BJJ seethe has caused irrepairable brain damage.

It's not called "BJJ" it's called "MMA" you fucking retard.

>>197928
the mixed in mixed martial arts is referring to a mixed rules set so various martial arts can compete against each other, it's not referring to literally mixing martial arts together so they're indistinguishable
even today all these years later MMA fighters still have distinct styles and specialties they leverage against each other

>>197929
>it's not referring to literally mixing martial arts together so they're indistinguishable
It is in fact referring to that. Holy shit, you are one delusional motherfucker.

>>197925
Except martial arts change and adapt to the times. 1950s BJJ has none of the extensive guardwork and sweeps that modern BJJ has. Muay Thai originally allowed groin shots up until the 1980s and in the 1960s/1970's the rules didn't allow except for a few seconds in clinching.

What some of us are discussing is updating Judo (and I want leg attacks to be brought back) since its striking application is hardly practiced and it only utilized 1800s Jujutsu atemi.

If you got nothing to contribute to this thread, why the fuck are you even posting? There's a fuckton of other threads in /xs/ for you to do.

>>197927
As much as I dislike Rorion and BJJ propaganda and posturing, Royce did get handpicked opponents when Gerard Gordeau was a VERY dangerous Kyokushin karateka (he was only toted as a savateur since he competed in it) and Ken Shamrock was a legit catch wrestler who underestimated Royce (even admitted it in his autobiography).

Yeah there could've been others in 1993 and 1994 that had they competed, Royce would've definitely been in trouble and even defeated. But while the early UFCs were meant to showcase BJJ to the US and international audiences, it also vindicated what previous generations of grapplers like Gene Lebell talked about how groundfighting and submissions were overlooked in favor of striking. There are even judo articles in Black Belt magazine from the 1970s that comment on how newaza was being neglected in favor of spectacular throws; so people weren't completely in the dark about how vital grappling on the ground was.

>>197933
Meh typo. I meant to say didn't get handpicked.

Royce gets cred for going out there and taking on guys who were dangerous strikers (Gordeau knocked out that sumo wrestler's tooth) or leglocked by Ken who was clearly stronger. And even against fellow grapplers like judoka and traditional Jujutsuka Remco Pardoel who was several inches taller and heavier.

>>197893
Your dad's a fucking idiot. Bullshido fantasy at its finest

>>197933
it was rigged

>>197947
My dad's pretty smart about these things actually.

>>197895
Jujutsu and judo influenced catch too. George Hackenschmidt even recommended wrestlers to learn Jujutsu trips. All wrestling styles learn from one another.

>>197905
My beef with Jiu-Jitieros that drink the Gracie Kool Aid is that just say, "Shut up and train" when you poke holes in Gracie myths. I especially hate how Rufino dos Santos got jumped and severely crippled by Helio, Carlos and George yet their apologists claim it was "a mistake".

>>197952
Gonna second the other anon and say your dads a retard and has no idea what he’s talking about

>>197955
pedro "copemeister" valente says grand master helio never participated in such a cowardly attack and it was just made up to slander him and the family name

all the witnesses I guess were lying too

>>197957
And the various news articles from Brazil. It's kinda embarrassing in the Internet age to see BJJ still spread their lies when people can do research. That and BJJ figures acting like thugs.

Carlos Sr.'s daughter Reila in her book about her father at least acknowledges how very flawed her father and family are. She even mentions Carlos' infidelity like scamming a friend to let Carlos sleep with the dude's wife.

>>197959
They’re Brazilian, not sure what you all expected.

>>197956
No, I think both of you are wrong. Now that I'm really thinking about it, it just makes sense. Grab your pectoral muscle by putting your fingers into your armpit and thumb over the muscle. You can grab that. You can give an underhook and latch your fingers over the top of the delt or along the collarbone and trap muscle. You can snag the splenius capitis muscle that runs diagonal on the neck. You can grab most of the joints and muscles of the arms and legs.

File: SmartSelect_20231120-1257(...).jpg (389 KB, 834x829)

389 KB JPG

>>197959
Like helio being a card carrying member of the fascist party of Brazil and it always makes me lol that people have that picture of him on the wall standing in front of that red flag with the black lightning bolt
Its no coincidence that was the logo of the jiujitsu federation he started
It's no coincidence the black belts have a red bar on them

File: 1694618727419702.webm (3.98 MB, 960x540)

3.98 MB WEBM

>>197893
>He told me to sink your grip into their pecs
real

>>197626
>The annoying spicy opinion guy has an annoying spicy opinion
IMAGINE MY SHOCK
>>197632
>vid
Shooting in a street fight is pretty crazy.

>>197966
I guess if you’re fighting a turbo lard but otherwise it’s retarded

>>197650
This may sound weird, but what got me on him is his complaint video about the pensador from Keysi fighting or DNA or whatever. Now hear me out. In his video, he describes how the pensador sucks because it's not as good as deflecting punches from the front as having your hands out in a traditional guard, right. But I got curious and went researching about it (had never heard of it before), and I found out that's not the rationale for the pensador. If you go to the source, the pensador is designed to protect your head from attacks from all angles; as in, it assumes you're surrounded and being attacked from the front, back and sides. Which is obviously a situation where the traditional guard would not be as useful and the more instinctive half-fetal pose is actually helpful. Basically he was judging it from outside of its context, saying that it wasn't good for dueling and therefore is bad overall. I don't know if the pensador is actually good at defending against multiple attackers, but at least it needs to be judged on that basis. And if I found that in five minutes on youtube, why didn't he?

>>197905
>bjj is judo, it's not and never will be a distinct art... but sambo is!
LMAO, feel the ressentiment

>>197952
How many people has he "thrown by their love handles"
Apart from your mother
Lmfao

File: 1705706659516623.png (532 KB, 603x476)

532 KB PNG

>>197747
>It discovered...
Ridiculous hubris by judo faggots. Pankration had joint locks and choke holds 3000 years before.

>>197971
>why didn’t he
You already know the answer, he’s a retarded fag who makes clickbait, not well researched content

>>197747
Are you talking about this exchange between Leonard and Higashi? I have Leonard's book on catch wrestling and it's really good.

https://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm

I like how they exchanged techniques and compared notes. Grappling is the best martial arts form; no bullshit and we're all utilizing the same concepts of torque, tension, technique, and conditioning. You can't Bullshido a grappling style because the very essence requires active training with a resisting partner who's doing the same to you.

>>197741
>>197995
Yeah nothing is new under the sun. Even ancient Pankration had toe kicks that the Chinese and Okinawans utilize.

Jujutsu and later Judo however codified and organized various submissions and holds that they had for centuries and later picked up stuff from Japanese who globe-trotted and were exposed to other styles. Cross-pollination is a must.

In the late 1800's to early 1900's, it was the golden age of various wrestlers from different countries competing against one another. Mitsuyo Maeda did catch wrestling as well as challenge matches utilizing judo. Yukio Tani did the same in Britain.

Indian pehlwani like Gobor Goho and the Great Gama showcased how surprisingly effective their wrestling was when they defeated Westerners.

This was the age of Sorakichi Matsuda, Ad Santel, Frank Gotch, Ed "Stranger" Lewis, Johannes Josefsson, Stanislaus Zbyszko, Imam Bux, Cour-Dereli, Ahmed Madrali, Yusuf "Terrible Turk" Ismail. All these guys and countless others helped shape what would be submission grappling. Western, MENA, South Asian, and Japanese, grappling is indiscriminate. The truth is found when you engage against your fellow wrestler and know first-hand what sort of man he is and what shaped them as they struggle against one another.

It's all wrestling under the sun; different labels and approaches but in the end, we all throw each other to the ground and/or roll to secure a favorable position for submission. We're supposed to be better than this dick-waving and shit-posting.

>>197983
People who do sambo always acknowledge that sambo is basically directly from judo, people from bjj somehow got the idea that it comes more from catch wrestling, which is just not true, the only thing that is close to it is the ruleset

>>198021
>people from bjj somehow got the idea that it comes more from catch wrestling
Wait, what? This is news to me. BJJ used to distance themselves from Catch and Luta Livre in the past because they always toted they took ancient Japanese Jujutsu and refined it. Catch was associated with worked matches because of pro rasslin and Luta Livre was looked down upon as a low class sport.

The funny thing is, both George and Helio trained in Catch. Oswaldo Gracie was also reported to have been involved in Catch as well.

>>198016
Blessed and based post.
If I had a time machine, the turn of the 20th century grappling scene would definitely be one of my first stops.

>>198026
Same here. I'm also an amateur historian and I like the Gilded Age of the 1890's to June 1914 (before World War One broke out). The French called 1871 (the end of the Franco-Prussian War) to 1914 (right before WWI began) as La Belle Époque. The advent of steamship lines really allowed greater ease of international travel and that's why so many ideas and peoples were exchanged at a pace unheard of before.

I did folkstyle wrestling in high school. I never did judo myself but I recognize it as a wrestling that has handles (i.e. the gi). BJJ is submission grappling that either utilizes the gi or without it. Sambo is a mix of Judo and other disciplines that the Soviets finely tuned as a battlefield art and as a combat sport. Sumo, Mongolian Bokh, Indian pehlwani all fascinate me because I recognize the technical applications despite never partaking in those sports. As grapplers, we're all one big clan; distantly related because since the dawn of humankind, people have grappled with one another in sport or self-defense.

In the end, no matter which grappling style wins, everybody comes out the victor because leverage + technique + body mechanics is proven time and time again and we can all learn from each other. Only McDojo black belts and Bullshido con artists who've never done a bear crawl or ripe climbing in their lives or taken a punch (I do boxing) talk shit about each other. With grappling, we prove it on the mats.

>>198030
>BJJ is submission grappling that either utilizes the gi or without it
Disagree
BJJ is gi based as much as judo is
You don't rank up in BJJ without wearing the gi, and the entire rule set of nogi grappling is different
This goes to an earlier point about BJJ trying to claim things retroactively, like ADCC for example which is what launched the nogi trend. That's not a bjj competition, its a grappling competition
BJJ guys were still showing up to fights with a gi on well after 1998
BJJ sellers are just trying to capitalize on a popular trend

Very Korean of them actually
"Yeah actually we invented that"

>>198034
Yeah BJJ historically always toted on how the gi was an essential part of their art: because it costs money to purchase it as well as using it as a weapon against opponents (like Royce's gi choke against Ken Shamrock). That's why BJJ was typically the sport of the middle and upper classes in Brazilian society while Luta Livre was looked as a poor man's sport since it didn't require it.

I'm no defender of Gracie or BJJ wankery, but at least the IBJJF embraced no-gi championship formats. BJJ constantly adapts and adds from other grappling styles and formats. ADCC did indeed popularize the concept of no-gi submission grappling to the masses; BJJ was smart enough to capitalize on it.

>>198038
I will more readily defend gracie jiujitsu than I will BJJ as an institution
At least they have some codified moves and a curriculum to follow
BJJ being so nebulous is exactly why it sucks now, it just chases trends
A few years ago everyone was doing x guard, then it was bolos, then it was worm guard, then the second bolo era with crab rides, then leglocks, then it was body locks, now it's going in the direction of wrestling with cradles and wrestle ups

And it's just people always behind trying to play catch up, but the time "the masses" start to get good at something the pros have moved on to something else. The result is a lot of mediocre to bad grapplers left in the wake of this because nobody is spending enough time to actually get good at anything. they get halfway decent and then drop it for something else.

It's like Gordon said a while ago people are just now starting to get good at the leglocks we stopped doing 5 years ago
The black belts are simultaneously the highest level they've even been and the lowest
It wasn't that long ago there were no fat black belts
I look around now and see donuts all over the place with that strap, and I'm not talking about older guys that let themselves go a bit, I'm talking about guys that have never been fit in their lives

>>197884
Hope he reads this

>>197626
Better than BJJ.
t. bjj 1 year.

>>198021
>People who do sambo always acknowledge that sambo is basically directly from judo
How do you know this? How many russian samboist friends do you have?
t. russian

>>198021
BJJ and sambo are not judo no matter how long time ago they broke away from it. Sambo is actually much closer to judo (to the point when you can see how indicated in the athlete's regalia "Master of Sports in judo AND sambo") and it is still not judo.
>People who do sambo always acknowledge that sambo is basically directly from judo
So the only thing BJJ guys must to do to gain your respect is to repent, to admit they are derived from judo, to ask mighty judo for forgiveness, to stand on knees and scream "We derived from judo!!!"? LMAO

>>198067
>the only thing BJJ guys must to do to gain your respect is to repent, to admit they are derived from judo
sounds pretty reasonable to me. You'll never be taken seriously if you're built on a house of lies

>>198067
>to admit they are derived from judo
Don't they already do this nowadays? Because this isn't the 90's anymore and people have exposed the holes in Gracie myths. Non-Gracie Brazilians as well as Japanese-Brazilians have been discovered as shaping BJJ's development.

Choque by Roberto Pedeiera has given quite of documented evidence that dismantles the whole "ZOO-ZITSU WAS BASED ON SAMURAI ART THAT WE PERFECTED BECAUSE THE BIG HULKING JAPONES RELIED TOO MUCH ON STRENGTH AND JUST HELD PEOPLE DOWN INSTEAD OF SCRAMBLING FOR SUBMISSIONS THAT WE BRAZILIANS INVENTED LEVERAGE AND GUARDWORK" that got peddled for quite a while until even the BJJ community realized it was too much.

AV got 4trannies and judotards seething like usual, you all fell for it retarded faggots

>>198079
Guess it's a good thing we're discussing it here and not on his page where he'll make money on it

>>198070
>SAMURAI ART THAT WE PERFECTED BECAUSE THE BIG HULKING JAPONES RELIED TOO MUCH ON STRENGTH
Literally loled

>>198079
>HEY GUISE, FUESS WHAT?
>”*most retarded thing imainable*”
>shut the fuck up retard
>AHAHAHA I TROL U SO HARD :*(

File: 1707436285260049.png (357 KB, 383x681)

357 KB PNG

>>197962
Whoa WTF I love BJJ now!!!

>>198068
>You'll never be taken seriously if you're built on a house of lies
No practitioner ever cares. No freestyle wrestler, no greco roman wrestler, no samboist, no BJJ practitioner care about history of their sport, they just do it. Only some nerds that are shit at wrestling but compensate it by knowing dates of birth of some coach from the past

>>197959
>scamming a friend to let Carlos sleep with the dude's wife
Lmao it seems like the dude stuck his dick in anything that moved
According to his Wiki page, 21 children, 106 grandchildren, 128 great-grandchildren

>>197905
I wouldn't say it's the same thing exactly, but it pretty much exactly fits the definition of a fork, same with Sambo
>In software engineering, a project fork happens when developers take a copy of source code from one software package and start independent development on it, creating a distinct and separate piece of software. The term often implies not merely a development branch, but also a split in the developer community; as such, it is a form of schism.

>>198016
But dick waving and shitposting is so fun

>>198127
NTA you're responding to, but you're right that while training should be the primary focus of whatever grappling style you practice, the Gracies have notoriously lied, omitted, downplayed, and doctored the history of BJJ's development. They even omit George Gracie who was actually the best fighter out of the 5 original brothers, but they had a serious falling out due to opinions on competing against Luta Livre/Catch as well as money issues.

You're right that only autists care about "OMG! IT'S NOT KIMURA IT'S UDE-GARAMI THAT SUPERIOR NIPPONIC DESU CREATED!" However, it's incredibly disrespectful and insulting when the Gracies and other Brazilians are making money off of Jigoro Kano's gift to the world; Judo schools are run for non-profit and do not charge anywhere near as much as BJJ academies do.

>inb4 Judoka
Nah, I'm the ex-folkstyle wrestler and current boxer. I'm an amateur hopologist ever since I read Donn Draeger's Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts and love the intricate backstory and development of combative sport whether striking or grappling. I'm just rolling my eyes at these type of threads because it really reeks of single digit IQ knuckle-dragging that the early Internet used to have when more evidence and facts are around today for people to learn.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for BJJ on how it popularized groundfighting and submissions to the masses as well as being an intricate core of MMA. I just don't drink the "99% of fights all end in the ground" bullshit or "The evil Japanese kept their ancient samurai fighting skills secret until the noble Gracies gave it to non-Japanese" narrative that got peddled for decades.

>>198150
Absolutely. It's a derivative. It sourced itself from Judo, but both Sambo and BJJ became its own thing though Sambo and BJJ received transfusions of Judo tech long after both styles were conceptualized because Judo itself also adapted and changed with the times.

>>198038
>That's why BJJ was typically the sport of the middle and upper classes in Brazilian society while Luta Livre was looked as a poor man's sport since it didn't require it.
How terrible was Brazil that the ability to purchase a single garment was the difference between wealth and poverty?

>>198030
>steamship and time travel
My dream as well

>>198184
>a single garment
that is over priced around 400% to 600% above what is should be

>>198184
>poverty
Abject poverty

>>198038
>BJJ was typically the sport of the middle and upper classes in Brazilian society
While that is correct, I don't think the gi is the reason why. I've read somewhere that the first generation of Gracies intentionally tried to gatekeep BJJ from the poors. Probably to avoid associations with street thugs but that's just me speculating

>>198252
Going back to helio being a fascist
As a gracie he believed he was white because he inherited a Scottish surname from some unknown ancestor
He didn't want the low class subhuman with dark skin to learn his ways
No blacks
No women either

He was a malignant racist, but also completely delusional because he wasn't even white himself

>>198269
Helio was an integralist. I'm not super well versed in Brazilian politics, but from what I've been able to find, Integralists were basically fascists but not necessarily racist, the name itself refers to integration of all races and ethnicities into a single cohesive society
He also had at least one notable black student, Valdemar Santana

>>198273
But on a personal level he most definitely was a racist, everyone who knew him said as much
Explicitly no blacks were allowed in the gracie academy

>>197626
Does this guy even do martial arts? He looks like he can do 20 pushups max while weighing <170 lbs....

>>197626
I know quite a few judoka who have absolutely zero cross training who would still absolutely demolish this nerd.

It is so over!
https://youtu.be/sMewsVacnuI?si=aOesty4N9hecxKTr


This fag definitely lurks here, this is not the first or last time he makes a video that happens to be about the topic we've been arguing about

>>198342
>This fag definitely lurks here, this is not the first or last time he makes a video that happens to be about the topic we've been arguing about
stfu and buy an ad, your videos are shite

Fighting as a whole only attracts average people, the internet doesn't have so much impact in people's views

>>198016
Absolutely based post. Reminds me of Jeet Kune Do philosophy, to look past the different "style" delineations. Instead of constantly being in a pissing contest of which style is better, look at what unifies them, and take the best aspects of each to synthesize them into your own most effective method.
Obviously JKD didn't invent this idea, and as you've already brought up, humanity has been doing this with different martial arts for all of human history. It's all body movement, and the ultimate way is to dissolve all of the "styles" and see the bigger picture.
I do Catch Wrestling as my main grappling style, but my MMA coach is also a blackbelt in Judo and Jiu Jitsu, plus countless other martial arts, and I appreciate what each of these arts offers, same for all of the other styles I practice.

>>198016
>We're supposed to be better than this dick-waving and shit-posting.
That's where you unironically lost me. You're of course right, cross pollination WAS a must. It is not anymore. Now concentration is a must. The human body is not an infinite engine and somewhere in the mix is the absolute meta. The statistically greatest return for the investment of effort. Shitposting is the modern philosophical equivalent of sophistry. In discussion on martial arts this boils down to challenging mainstream opinions. For example, the idea that a school of fighting that strives for some sort of stylistic purity is fucking retarded, which some may consider applies to judo. The kum-ba-yah you're selling is a nice idea, a mainstream idea, the world is a great tapestry & all that... But I think, beyond the obvious trolls, we just want the science of fighting and everything else can fuck off at this point. MMA is this discourse made corporeal. Judo has good ideas but anyone studying just it, is fucking stupid. Everyone should just come together under general martialism & mash everything until only the really consistently useful remains & everything else is lost to obscurity.

File: GELGUP558VP21hING85Z61nA-(...).jpg (216 KB, 1200x755)

216 KB JPG

>>198565
The idea that MMA is the ultimate survival-of-the-fittest proving ground needs to die. Something working in MMA is a good litmus test of it being effective, but that doesn't mean ONLY what happens in MMA is effective. There are reasons other than effectiveness that precludes something showing up in MMA.

>innovation is slow
Myth: open MMA ruleset means fighters are constantly innovating and what's left is most optimal
Reality: most fighters copy the meta. Like you said people want the best return for the investment, so rarely do fighters innovate. Their livelihood is tied to winning. Why risk trying something new instead of sticking to what works? Only when some star fighter starts doing something new and winning does it trickle down to the masses (and even then, not always). Ex. the consensus back in the day was that front snap kicks were "karate bs that would never work in the cage bro." Even after Anderson ko'd Belfort, people coped with "it only works thrown to the head" and "akshually it's a MT teep and should land with the heel". It was only after Conor started destroying people with ball front snap kicks to the midsection did fighters actually take stock.

>ruleset
MMA fighters play to the rules as much as any other combat sport. You rarely see stomps and soccer kicks nowadays. Are they ineffective? No, the most popular ruleset bans them, so most fighters don't use them/take them into account.

>useless things aren't always useless
The problem with the "keep the useful/discard the useless" is that sometimes you get rid of good things. Maybe something was phased out for good reason, but becomes relevant again later. Many bare knuckle boxing guards disappeared once gloves happened and them made them obsolete. However, BKB guards are re-appearing in MMA by guys like Mads Burnell since smaller gloves don't work as well with 'conventional' boxing guards. If we just went "it's not the 1800s grandpa it won't work," we'd never rediscover how useful they are.

>>198570
I would very much like a bare knuckle MMA because of the points made here.

>>198570
It's funny cuz the karate/kenpo front kick is different in execution than a teep and has been used to great effect in US full-contact karate (old school US kickboxing with shiny pants) as well as Japanese Kickboxing since many of its early practioners had a karate/kenpo base.

>>198565
Not the guy you're responding to but I think he was saying that we should just be open to whatever we can pick up from whatever grappling we're exposed to and not get into these pedantic squabbles that gripe about every flaw in judo, BJJ, sambo, etc. Every grappling art had some limitations like BJJ not as polished in takedowns/throws or Greco prohibiting leg attacks.

US BJJ, I'd argue is developing better than what the Brazilians are doing because our scholastic wrestling is an excellent complement to it. I, myself have a coach who incorporates scholastic hooks, tiles, cradles as well as having us do judo stand-up like uchi Mata and osoto Gari.

>>198592
>our scholastic wrestling is an excellent complement to it
Honestly the wrestling is something I really envy you Americans. The popularity and level of support it receives (or seems to receive anyway) is beyond that of any sport at middle/high school/university level here in Europe

>>198593
Wut? Why is wrestling not given support?

>>198595
What I mean is that in America, a ton of schools seem to have their own sport programs and teams that regularly compete.
At least where I live, this isn't very common, and it doesn't seem to be common in Europe generally.
There are sports clubs of course, but they're private and if you want to attend them, you do so on your own time and money, and the school has no obligation to accommodate you. They usually do, to an extent, because most teachers aren't retarded dickheads, but you know...

>>198596
>and it doesn't seem to be common in Europe generally
*as far as I'm aware at least. My experience is limited to the former Eastern Bloc countries though, so if what I've described exists in your cunt, good on you

>>198597
That's kinda surprising seeing how the Eastern Bloc has a strong history of wrestling competition.

>>198596
What sucks in the US is that folkstyle is only something that people learn in public school and university. Outside of education, you have to find a private sports club to learn it (and freestyle, Greco-Roman) so if you're an adult wanting to learn how to wrestle, it's very difficult to find.

>>198342
I really like Chadi but that video on the Rufino dos Santos incident is so fucking whitewashed that it made me lose a lot of respect. I still think his vids are great in showcasing all these forgotten and neglected techniques in judo, wrestling, etc.

The old Gracie videos where they resemble a lot of pre-1945 Judo (Helio and Carlos did quite a bit of stand-up throws and takedowns) is what BJJ should still be instead of the popular sport version.

On the Rufino dos Santos coverage, at least Simon BJJ (who has done a lot on shedding the true history of Jiu-Jitsu Brasileiro) is more objective.

https://simonbjj.com/the-steel-box

>>198587
That would be fascinating. It'd be akin to the old bare knuckle boxing that Britain and the US had in the 1600s to 1800s as well as Lethwei (sans headbutts) + submission grappling.

You won't have as many knockouts from punches to the head since there's no gloves. Open palm blows and elbows will be the main weapons to the face.

>>198613
>that video on the Rufino dos Santos incident
he got lambasted in the comments for that though, because he listened to that velente shill just pull stuff out of his ass to save face

at least everybody knows the truth

>>198645
I'm surprised he didn't turn off the comments section but I guess he realizes it'd make him look really bad.

And listening to Valente speak was a bit nauseating. I get that he hero-worships the Gracies but his apologist attitude was sickening. At 19, you are considered a man by many if not most legal definitions. Maybe mentally Helio was still a kid, but jumping a dude with his 2 older brothers is real thuggish and you should know better.

And Valente bringing up Shiro Saigo is funny because both he and Chadi neglect to mention that Saigo got kicked out of the Kodokan for doing that. Gordon Ryan slapping Andre Galvao would've gotten the IJF to penalize him for unsportsmanlike behavior. Yeah Andre was a dick and was instigating but there's a way to handle that. The IBJJF didn't do shit.

I'm no admirer of pitboys and Gracie propaganda, but I have nuance to acknowledge and even respect their positive members like the late Carlson Sr. and the late Rolls Sr. Those 2 are arguably the most important innovators of BJJ amongst the Gracies in my humble opinion.

Is it just me or does BJJ really foster a cult-like environment?

>>198651
And yes I know Gordon and Andre have nothing to do with the IJF. I was bringing it up as an example if they were 2 judoka that did this. BJJ's serious problem is that lack a cohesive governing body.

>>198651
They get really touchy when you call them out on it but some BJJ'ers are a bit loopy with their Brazil worship

>>198645
Nobody really cares. People get a pass if they're popular

>>197704
Why the hell haven't you mentioned Fedor? Started in judo before Sambo and his was crazy good.

>>198686
The judo sucks autist specified UFC only. Fedor never fought in the UFC.

>>198282
Wow you must have spent a lot of time looking at his chest through his shirt to figure that out

>>198651
Thing is that while there's no excuse for what helio did, it could even be understood, he's a young guy, his brothers pressured him into it, poor decision making all around, and then he went to prison and did his time. he could atone for what he did, learn from his bad ways, be better and influence people in a better way
But he lived another 80 years went to his grave saying idindunuffin and for that he's scum

>does BJJ really foster a cult-like environment?
Yes, it's a necrocracy that diefies a bunch of grifters and rewrites history to bolster their accomplishments
>but muh judo and muh kano
He is respected as the founder of an organization
Helio gracie is recognized by cultists as the man who invented leverage

Like they think this nigga invented a physical principle, not even observed it, not even discovered it, he INVENTED it

>>198738
Kano honestly deserves worship. He didn't just formulate judo but also pioneered for Japanese education. Everything about his life was for the betterment of humanity and he spread judo to the world at no personal profit.

There are 2 submission grappling ancestors for modern times: judo and catch-as-catch-can wrestling. Kano made Jujutsu techniques safe to practice yet retained their effectiveness. I bow to Kano; he and Yodtong Senanan are the paragon of what a martial arts instructor should be.

>>198749
My 2 favorite tidbits about Kano are these:
ts ultimate object, the benefit of humanity.”

>In a speech given in 1934: "Nothing under the sun is greater than education. By educating one person and sending him into the society of his generation, we make a contribution extending a hundred generations to come."

Kano's wish was that he would be buried with a white belt to signify he was always a learner.

Call me a nuthugger (and I don't even do judo only scholastic wrestling) but THAT is a true master in every sense of the word.

>>198752
>>198749

But you have to give credit to grand Master helio for modifying judo to make it more practical
Unlike the physically powerful Japanese a regular person is unable to make judo work without excess strength

>>198760
Well of course. Helio invested everything from positions to weight distribution and body mechanics

https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DV4qyiy9V55Y&ved=2ahUKEwik3_PdnamGAxW8D1kFHfYCAhwQo7QBegQIDBAG&usg=AOvVaw3q2RINwrSjkS0-phQT5UxP

>>198796
Does Kron really believe that the guard was discovered by his grandfather?

I mean holy shit, this is massive cope.

>>198651
The worst I see from judoka is that they're Japanophiles like obsessing over oriental customs and etiquette, but BJJ fosters a very macho hot-headed culture built on lies and misdirection. They're effective submission grapplers no doubt about it, but they also promote a lot of delusional adherents that will obey the party line.

>>198613
At least he had a video that questioned Helio's claim that he invented leverage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlnsFMfc8A&pp=ygUMaGVsaW8gaW52ZW50

>>197632
To be fair, Boxing and Wrestling is the superior combination when we are talking MMA. Two styles rarely combine as well as those two and they can be learned completely separately. While stuff like Muay Thai and BJJ have conflicting feetwork, Boxing and Wrestling kind of complement each other when you think about it. And all the complementary stuff like kick defense, knees and elbows you can learn with MMA.

File: The IJF and its consequences.png (13 KB, 462x135)

13 KB PNG

>>197626
he has some valid criticisms of the olympic rule set
but
>bjj (which is heavily focused on submissions) has better submission than judo
>wrestling (which is EXTREMELY focused on takedowns and lacks submissions) has better takedowns than judo
wow really activated my almonds there
and of course
>a wazari is worth ten points
>the only legal joint locks are on the elbow
come on man at least read the wikipedia page on judo before you make a video about it

>>198738
Yeah a lot of the early Gracies were not good people. I still respect George Gracie because he could actually fight and took his losses with good grace and cross-trained with anyone.

>>198803
>While stuff like Muay Thai and BJJ have conflicting feetwork, Boxing and Wrestling kind of complement each other when you think about it.
It really depends on the type of wrestling. Freestyle wrestling with the really low stance doesn't mesh with the upright boxing stance, so guys with freestyle backgrounds often end up taking an extra motion to switch between the two stances when they transition from striking to wrestling and vice versa. Historically Greco-Roman guys make the easiest transition from striking-to-wrestling because they already stand upright when wrestling.

>>198805
>le bad IJF that wants to DESTROY judo
kek

>>198812
More to this, if youre right handed you stand left foot forward in boxing
If you're right handed in wrestling you tend to stand right foot forward

Throws me off completely. Also with strikes around 80% of wrestling is pointless. You can't hand fight with someone punching/elbowing/headbutting. That is the handfighting

>>198819
Sounds like you're just a shitty wrestler. Being ambidextrous for wrestling is something you should pick up year 1

>80% of wrestling is useless with striking

LMAO

>>198854
>LMAO
Didn't Chael Sonnen say only like 3 wrestling moves are useful in mma and wrestling is mostly effective because it gives you the right mindset?

>>197626
Wrestling walked so Judo could run and Judo came back and taught Wrestling how to sprint.

>>202517
Just read this. Really interesting

>>202517
he has a lot of bad takes, don't mistake his work ethic and athleticism making him successful in the sport with the idea that he knows what's going on
shut up and punch type situation

>>202517
>>202548
This. Chael is a retard, he just happens to be a retard who used to be really good at beating people up. Many such cases.

>>197895
Where did you get sambo’s leglocks were from catch? The only leglocks I could find in the history of catch were a toehold from turtle and a poorly executed straight ankle lock? The kneebar was discovered in the last few hundred years in Japan being credited to the same guy the triangle choke is credited to and the heelhook was co-discovered by a judo instructor and a bjj student working together. Also it is pretty well documented that most of sambo came from two dudes, one being a complete jujutsu weeb and the other being one of the very first non-japanese judo black belts.

>>202548
>>202577
I'll take the opinion of the guy who fights over the one who doesn't.

>>202633
would you rather get a lesson from john danaher or nicky rod?

point made

>>202633
Ok and there are a ton of fighters who disagree with Chael so what’s your point?

Chael says there’s only three good wrestling moves for mma because he’s short sighted. Coming from a judo perspective, most black belts know a ton of techniques but only consistently use two or three “Tokui waza” (winning techniques). Chael thinks there’s only three useful wrestling moves because those are what are useful FOR HIM. He fails to realize that outside of his myopic viewpoint may not be the same for everyone else.

>>202673
Cope.

>>202664
>would you rather get put to sleep 5 times a round or get lulled to sleep and then tied up

>>202676
huh?

>>202675
>no one has ever used grappling moves to win a fight outside of what Chael Sonnen says is good. If you think otherwise you’re coping
This a weird take to have considering most of Chael’s losses were via submission

It's obvious 90% of handfighting doesn't work in MMA. Just like 90% of boxing doesn't work. Funnily enough when you mix all these sports and come close to no rules combat it becomes very primitive and basic, and generally speed aggression and heart will carry a fighter

>>202679
"Danaher is a serial killer" joke.
And possibly anon's BDSM fantasies

>>198749
>>198752
Helio blows Kano out of the water. Helio decided to never fuck a woman unless it's for the purpose of having children and he had like 100 grand children

>>202712
>Helio blows Kano

Indeed

>>197626
he's right

>>197626
It's going to be about how olympic rules robbed judo of a lot of charm, is it?
Yes, unsurprisingly, it was. I'm surprised he didn't mention the leg grabbing ban.
Most of the stuff he says, while inflammatory for algorithm reasons, are valid.
I disagree with the whole "people are just going to stand up again in a street fight" argument. Street fighters shit themselves when gripped because they don't expect it. Not to mention getting thrown. Then I guess he just ignores the fact that judo has plenty of submissions or the fact that a judoka will immediately start pounding the opponent. Thrown at a sharp, concrete (or similar) angle, can very easily knock someone out, I know because I have been a clueless white belt who has been thrown and hit my head a couple of times against a tatami.
>jacket is not a gi
I have gripped hoodies (i love these, you can choke some one with a hood quite easily), shirts and thin jackets. Not comfortable but it's doable.
> zip it up there go the lapel grabs
Lol, this is to retarded to even comment.
>>198342
It's quite obvious OP made the video, or is a direct shill

Beyond all of the things he said, Judo is dying anyways, probably thanks to the gracies who stole a bunch of it, won the UFC and profited, so everyone just does BJJ now. >>198749
Helio even stole this image and made it into an archetype. Some BJJ gyms do the portrait on the wall thing.

>>202761
judo isn't dying, globally its growing every year it's just the US is an anomaly because the vetbro scene pushes bjj

>>202765
>the vet bro scene pushes bjj
You’re 100% correct but I have no idea why. I would have assumed military types would like slamming people as opposed to rolling around ground fighting and it’s overly complex techniques that only matter for fighting other ground specialists

>>202768
It's because vetbros are arthritic babies who want to look cool without putting in a lot of actual physical work.

Judo, for the most part, is very physically demanding. I would say more so than even wrestling. Judo is like the Olympic gymnastic or weightlifting of the martial arts world, if you actually take it super serious you need to be either pretty young or have an extensive athletic background. Otherwise you're either going take it slow and do it easier (which is totally fine and what pretty much we all want to do) or you're going to get hurt in some way or shape. Usually the latter, because it's very easy to go hard in randori without even knowing and it's very easy to land wrong if you're not that experienced.

Injuries happen in all martial arts and BJJ is no exception, however if you're a 45-year-old vetbro you may not want to tear your meniscus in two places trying to go against some 25-year-old acrobatic Filipino. Comparatively to getting a friction rash across your face or pulling something in your forearm that happens in BJJ.

Not all vetbros are like this, a lot of SEA and Latin Americans I know in my Judo classes are former military or law enforcement and they're getting on in age. The very old guys stick to a lot of kata or light, LIGHT randori.

>tl;dr

Vetbros are old and either have a lot of injuries or don't want to get any injuries which is understandable, so BJJ is the next bet. But to stay cool and not seem like a total wimp they have to insert a lot of tacticool shit into it.

>>202768
I think it's just mindlessly following what jocko says

File: hqdefault.jpg (9 KB, 480x360)

9 KB JPG

>>197626
That's what hurts!

>>197626
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsAHy3m0UT0

AHAHAHAHA HE'S BACK

>>204924
he has tits

>>197626
He's right... it's so judover bros

>>202768
>>202770
>You’re 100% correct but I have no idea why.
Because the military replaced the previous generation of combatives training with BJJ during the height of the UFC craze, even though it's grossly inappropriate for any combat situation a solider or marine might actually find himself in.

>>204924
>you don’t learn martial arts by learning a move then drilling and sparring with it IDIOT
>you learn martial arts by PROBLEM SOLVING in sparring
How do people listen to this gigantic retard and think he has good takes lmfao. I didn’t even bother watching past this

>>205016
I'm concerned you watched a 40 minute video

>>204924
He's just an autist that can't understand why a woman wouldn't like to spar with a guy

>>197626
I went through this guy's channel and found a talk with him and some regular guy that was actually pretty grounded about belts. He has opinions that sound like he doesn't train and even admits he is "unranked" which I took as he doesn't even train

>>205025
He claims to have 14 years of grappling experience but doesn't want a belt becuase he would be dismissed as just having a blue belt. He's a goofy guy.

>>205026
I have 9 years of shooting experience, I shot a gun 9 years ago and then recently did it again

I'm unranked but you could say I've been shooting for a while now

>>205026
Lmao what a cope
>no bro totally I’m basically a black belt I’m just too cool to do promotions
Who does this fag think he’s fooling?

>>205037
You know how basically all martial arts youtubers are in the Carolinas for some reason? And they all hang out together, fatboy Seth, wonderboy, manlet Mike and what not?
He's there too, he was in one of Mike's videos when everyone was together and then never again so I can only assume when they all worked out together he didn't make the cut and they distanced themselves from him

>>205039
I think that probably has more to do with obnoxious personality than his actual skill level though.

Imagine being such an obnoxious annoying cunt that even icy Mike can’t stand you

>>205026
>He claims to have 14 years of grappling experience

Translation: He was raped at 14.

File: images (93).jpg (19 KB, 300x417)

19 KB JPG

>>197626
This guy is such a prissy know it all faggot twink. A real man needs to put him in his place.

>>205092
He probably wants that. Peak fatherless behavior.

>>205096
Kek.

>>205092
Whaoooo guys this one dude kimura practiced judo all his life and did osoto gari on tree trunks for 30 years and was in his physical prime

Well this one time around 80 years ago he beat up a 60 year old man. This proves judo really works!

>>205026
The more I think about this the more it burns my biscuits, this means he's never had more than 1 year of uninterrupted formal instruction if he has a blue belt after 14 years

And it's not that formal instruction is all that important, but not having it also indicates he's never spent much time in a room practicing against a lot of different people

>>197626
But both Khabib and Islam say that it's fine

>>205099
I love how bjj fags actually pretend that helio Gracie did anything useful and didn’t just take a Japanese art and pretend it was his own.

If only that 450lbs kimura didn’t force 102 year old helio gracie to fight him with hometown advantage. Then judo would have lost!

File: megmogg.jpg (102 KB, 640x634)

102 KB JPG

>>197626
i dont give a fuck about what youtuber cunts are doing

>>205107
To be fair, Helio's style is all about attrition; survival at all costs and wearing down the opponent until you can exploit an opportunity.

I'm no BJJ nuthugger, but I recognize how they diverged from Judo and Catch-as-Catch-Can-Wrestling (the other art that people conveniently forget that BJJ derives from) and became superb in groundfighting.

Yeah the Gracie propaganda is annoying but more people are wising up to it. Even on /bjj/ on reddit, they tone down the Gracie worship.