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Why yes I do need a 7900xtx to play the best games.

Why does Valve and others recommend using Vsync on with fps cap instead of just Vsync off with fps cap?

>>102056069
based. gta sa is pretty gud
is gta iv better or worse?

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>>102056084
Worse overall, though it does have better atmosphere in my opinion. One nice element is as you basically need to use DXVK to get good performance that allows the usage of autoHDR which really makes places like star junction POP.

>>102056084
GTAfags say the IV has better enemy response on your shots (ie if you shoot your enemy in the knee they fall and so on) and better car physics.

When will DDR5 ram and AM5 boards get to the prices AM4 is now

Are the be quiet shadow wings good for case fans?

https://www.pccasegear.com/products/45991/be-quiet-shadow-wings-2-120mm-pwm-fan

When you case will have three 120 mm fan sockets on the top and bottom of the case. I know these don't push a lot of air but three at the top and three at the bottom should be sufficient right?

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>Here's your new motherboard, Anon

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>>102056221
>1 channel ram

>>102056233
Perfect for DDR6

>>102056202
motherboards already are.
DDR5 is getting cheap, the thing is though is DDR4 is way way cheaper than it historically ever was because its end of life.
I'd be confident in running a 7800X3D or a 7600 with this
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/mtkfDZ

>>102056082
remember anything a big game company does is aimed at the absolute retards who can barely turn on their PC.

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>>102056032
How long should a monitor rma take?
10 days since i shipped it, a working week since they received it and they haven't even started diagnosis.
I regret buying iiyama, should've gotten a dell

>>102056233
just make the channel bigger bro it's not hard

>>102056220
>1100 rpm, airflow focused
honestly that's about the worst fan you could pick as a case fan.
If the spec of the PC is a low to mid system that won't generate loads of heat, it probably won't be an issue though.

>19c hotspot delta on my $1100 gpu
thank you asus for using dollar store paste

>>102056354
>>102056220
If you can wait until next month you can get a restock of the Arctic P12 PWM PST 120mm pressure fans 5 pack for $45.
https://www.pccasegear.com/products/54753/arctic-p12-pwm-pst-120mm-pressure-optimised-fan-5-pack

>>102056368
>his GPU is lower than room temperature
>this is bad because?

if I have a 1440p ultrawide, I should look at ''4k'' GPUs, right?

>>102056416
I use a 3080 with a 3840x1600 160hz ultrawide. I'm not gonna say I can run everything at max settings or raytracing shit, but that 3080 is easily enough to get me stable 100+ fps rates with medium to high settings with some tweaking on pretty much every game I use.

>>102056405
shut up retard this isnt funny im going to have to actually repaste this thing before its warranty is up ffs. i wouldnt even put it under load without uv

>>102056444
19c is room temperature.
Did you mean 119c?

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https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-9-9950x-drops-to-623-9900x-now-449-in-the-us-with-prices-slashed-up-to-12-in-germany
It begins...

>Retailer price cuts not official ones
AMD may not care about DIY consumers, but I wonder if they will start to care when large e-tailers begin privately dressing them down for sticking them with overpriced inventory that is unsellable at the prices they chose for it.

>>102056368
19c delta is reasonable. You're not going to be getting majorly lower deltas without watercooling or ridiculous brick heatsinks.

how good is the i5 12400F with an RX 6600?

>>102056465
>price drops
can gaymers stop whining now?

>>102056475
Budget/10

>>102056479
AMD whiners will never be happy because Intel and Nvidia will never have to drop their pricing and that's all that matters, it's not about AMD being affordable, it's about them not being able to afford the superior product brands.

>>102056475
just sell your trash CPU to a dumb gaymer and get an AMD CPU

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102056487

>>102056473
it's not considering it was 10-11 when i first got it and it has been creeping up ever since.

https://www.igorslab.de/en/cause-and-reasons-revealed-hotspot-problems-on-many-newer-graphics-cards-due-to-inferior-thermal-paste/

>>102056488
haven't bought it yet, recommend something.

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>>102056405
he means the hotspot is 19C over the reported temperature.
my 2060KO with the TU102 die, twin fan, twin heatpipe cooler with questionable heatpads has a 16C delta at 160W.
an extremely large, three fan, three slot cooler should be performing at least that well at 300W

>>102056535
how much of a cheapskate are you willing to be at the cost of upgradability?
AM4 stuff on the secondhand market is cheap and 5000 series CPUs will probably handle the RX 6600 just fine, but there is nothing to upgrade to
AM5 is expensive but you can upgrade to zen 6 in the future without tossing your mobo or RAM

>>102056479
Until the price cuts are implemented by AMD themselves and deeper than the ones so far I will not be satisfied. I demand an unconditional surrender.

Just checked PCPP:
9950X is now $623 (down from $649)
7950X is $513
It's still $100 beyond reaching price/performance parity with what it suppose to replace

9900X is now $449 (down form $499)
7900X is $358
Again still nearly $100 overpriced.

Zen 4 is not getting any slower or more expensive, Intel 13/14th Gen is getting patched and replacements swapped, and Arrow Lake is due mid-October. None of these things are mysteries to AMD yet they seem to sleepwalking into a wood-chipper this generation.

>>102056588
meh
13, 14th gen is inherently broken
arrow lake can't outperform 5800X3D (nearly 3 years old already)
amd will have no competition for a while

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>>102056032

What's the best case to use with easy pop out or magnetic filters and stuff?

I have a tj08-e which I think is the best case I've used but was wondering if there was anything similar these days. Even in an ATX form factor but still willing to stick to matx.

Or what's the smallest atx you can get with good fan filter cleaning and management?

>>102056296
I'm just confused as to why they recommend using Vsync with freesync?

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/418E-7A04-B0DA-9032

>>102056613
AP201
the metal is very cheap and bends easily but it requires no tools for removing panels and filters

>>102056556
yeah I realised that after my 2nd post lol

>>102056619
it probably enables better/more consistent frame timing

>>102056588
Zen5 should have had a $100 price cut from Zen4 across the board and they wouldn't have been savaged as badly.
$599 for the 9950X.
$449 is what the 9900X should have been.
$299 is what the 9700 should have been (with a cooler)
$199 is what the 9600 should have been (with a cooler)

>>102056606
>13, 14th gen is inherently broken
and that's why AMD priced it how they did.

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>>102056556
btw, this is the thermal pad setup EVGA went with, its why I want to give it some thermal putty for its 4th birthday which will get some heat out of the PCB and should improve the die temps.
I'm also not going with the phase change meme, going to get some MX-6 for the die.
thanks for reading my blog post.

>>102056660
>(with a cooler)
That is a particularly scummy move which not very many reviewers testing with Giant AIOs or Big Dick Dual Towers focused on, especially for the 9600 which is supposed to the budget entry point for Zen 5. It was such a transparent move to pad margins on the box for AMD by in effect offloading a shadow cost of the chips by $20-50 dollars onto buyers.

>>102056368
19C delta is normal though, worry when it goes 24-30C'

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>>102056032
>pic
huh, that's my PC
by the way the paint is holding well on the 3090, no peeling for nearly a year now

>>102056354
>>102056392
It's going to be in an Asus Prime 201 case with side window. The top bottom front back and side are all completely mesh.

My primary concern with the Arctic fans is that they are louder and I've heard and read about coil whine being actually noticeable on them.

My question isn't really if the be quiet fans are good but rather if they will be good enough. Because the case is mostly mesh it outperforms moat other positive pressure cases even without fans

why do people whine about CAMM2 about being "unupgradable" because there is only 1 module, when dual-stick and quad-stick DDR4 and DDR5 kits are basically binned together anyways

>>102056776
yup, idiots also complain it takes up space on the board when it takes less space than 4 slots

>>102056368
>>102056473
>>102056746
In Hwinfo64 theres max hotspot temp and avg hotspot temp. max should be no more than 21c. avg should be no more than 16c.

>>102056731
yep, it effectively made the price drop from Zen4 $0

the 7700X was $399, no cooler.
the 7600X was $299, no cooler.
if you're going to rebrand the R5 and R7 so they're only 65W parts, that's fair enough but you're double dipping by not including a cooler.

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>>102056613
I think Fractal Torrent (or Compact) is still the air cooling king?

>>102056790
>max should be no more than 21c. avg should be no more than 16c.
who told you that? it's ideal, but it never happens

>>102056800
not him but damn the torrent is probably my favorite case, i would've probably got one if I didn't shill out for an o11d

>>102056818
I have compact, had to remove lower front fan to isnert full size GPU, put it on the bottom

>>102056815
if its hitting 19C average out of the box that aint good.

>>102056815
the smaller the node, the higher the heat density. hence the larger deltas and temp swings.
when the delta exceeds those values that always indicates a cooling issue such as wrong size pads or exposed die space.

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>>102056774
This is the case I'm going to use. I'm almost tempted to get the one without the side window. The entire case is one giant block of mesh. Which means positive pressure is completely non-existent.

The tunnel test of this case are absurd with no fans installed this case beats almost everything even with fans because it is just about as open as an Open Bench.

But that also means I'll be able to hear everything going on in this thing so my goal is to have the quietest fans possible.

Ssds make no noise, the PSU is going to be a be quiet because although they don't have a zero fan mode the fans are very very quiet at all times. The CPU Cooler is going to be the be quiet Slim because it is the quietest cooler they make.

The only thing that could make serious noise is the gigabyte eagle 3080 TI.

>>102056032
Thrift store builder here >>102055831

Thinking of getting a cheap case for this build with better fans/airflow. What would you recommend? Leaning towards a thermal take h18

Also what after market CPU cooler should I get or just keep it stock? I did have a CoolerMaster 212 but I'm reusing that for my main computer lol

>>102056032
Why is 12100 not acceptable for gaming use? Is there really a significant difference between the 12100 and 12400F?

>>102056841
my 7900xt red devil stay at that under 350w load for a year now, that's fine, check out that german dude delta temperature fix for 79XTX, he managed to reach only 20C' after repasting and said it was great
it was like 30C before repasting and card throttled, if card stays at consistent clock means it works as intented.

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>>102056871
the 12100 is for extreme poorfags, and yes there is a 10-20% difference.
the 12400 and 5600 are basically equals and are also basically cheap enough now for poorfags to get.

>>102056913
Yeah I'll get the 12400F then, was just wondering.

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>7600X
>7700XT 12GB
>2x16GB
Is this a 1440p build or a 1080p one?

>>102056032
>1440p: ASRock PG27QFT2A, Dell G2724D
Can't find those in my country. Any others? Big bonus if they are cheap/budget

>>102057026
1440p, 90fps would be my guess. depends heavily on the game and settings though.

>>102057026
>7700XT 12GB
I doubt it would age well for 1440p. Just pay that little extra for the 7800XT.

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>remove AIO
>install picrel
>PC is now inaudible
literally how? The temps didn't even increase. I feel like I just crawled out of platos cave.

>>102057399
was it an ancient AIO?

>>102057399
AIO is a trap.

>>102057416
not really, it was a h100i rgb elite (I know, I know)
but regardless of how low I set it, I could always heir a faint pump buzzing noise, with this one, zilch. I have to really put my ear next to it to hear anything.

>try running amd igpu on ryzen instead of nvidia gpu
>the radeon software doesn't even have a gamma slider
someone explain? I can't even tweak my shit laptop screen without additional software that might be buggy shit still

>>102057399
I don't know why people continuously fail to conceptualize in their head that an AIO does the exact same thing as a regular heat sink, but with extra steps.

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upgraded to 7800X3D and 64GB of CL30 6000

>>102057055
What country?

>>102057489
...and yet you still remain a sexless loser. Such is the fate of GayMD fags.

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>>102057504

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>>102057550

>>102057504
I hope intel rejects your rma faggot

>>102057449
gear icon -> display ->custom color

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>>102057504
>t.

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Is this a new feature of Windows? It says I can eject my 2nd NVME SSD on my motherboard? Does this mean I can hotswap NVMEs while the system is on?

>>102057628
kek

amd unboxed still shits on amd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7xzFOKU9QM

>their own shills don't like the new poozen
AVOID AMD

>>102057628
Wait until you see a prompt to eject your GPU (which actually works and takes your GPU offline)

>>102057649
>avoid amd! get a cpu that needs to kill itself with excess voltage to compete instead!

>i9
>only 8 cores
sorry i cannot hear you over my 9950X and my 7995WX systems

>>102057690
I think it's a moot point since our sounds will be overshadowed by those of your girlfriend getting her back blown out by men with excess melanin in their skin.

>libtard intel shill immediately brings up interracial sex
uhhhhhhh... kek???

>>102056863
Get 4 of the Silent Wings Pro 4 fans instead and use those, and if you feel you need more, add two extra later.

>>102057672
that sounds cool but isnt that more for like external gpus? i dunno why its asking for my internal ssd unless its supposed to be hotswappable?

>>102057745
It's not hotswappable, it's just Windows incorrectly guessing it's an external drive

>amtard thinks him and his girfriend are white
I kekked, loled, and lmaoed at the same time

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>>102057672
>mom ejected the GPU

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>>102057740
Intel niggers are just mindbroken and suffer from brainrot, don't expect any reasonable behaviour from them

>>102057616
gaming->display->custom color->no gamma settings exist here

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I'm at my parent's place and I'm looking at the corpse of my old desktop. I scavenged most of it, but I left the graphics card in as I couldn't easily transport it across the country. I moved back within driving distance now though. It's an old Radeon R9 270.
My current build is about 7 years old and has a GTX 1050 Ti in it.
I'm thinking about using that old Radeon as a second GPU in my current desktop. It would fit my old motherboard and it would give me two more ports for my third and fourth monitor, as well as my TV. Right now those three are plugged into my motherboard and run off the integrated graphics on my CPU, which I know is not ideal. I'm hoping that by doing this I can take some pressure off the CPU, as my CPU runs uncomfortably hot a lot of the time - spiking to 93c at one point last week.
Anything I need to know about running more than one graphics card? Is this retarded?

>>102056069
Based and gta maps in beamng and asetto corsa max comf

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u7xzFOKU9QM

Hwub shitting in zen5loopoo

>>102057836
windows settings - system display - advanced display - adapter properties you'll find color calibration in there
apparently they removed it because it doubled with windows functions

>>102057884
You might not even be able to as for a long time (not sure if it is still in place) nvidia's driver would not work if it detected AMD's driver in the system (this was done to stop people buying el cheapo nvidia cards as physx accelerators).

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I still don't understand this OLED monitor thing.

You change your phone every 2 years, so in general, what's the difference. The PC changes much less often on average, I was sitting with my old monitor for 8 years, and before that for 7 years.
No OLED monitor will survive for more than 2-3 years without severe burnout.

It has zero resell walue, by the way.
I can still sell my PC parts, even for 20-30% of the price.

t. anon with 4080 and IPS, phone is S24U

>>102057740
the jews got to em
only reason why they continuously buy mossad inside cpus

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Day 506 of waiting for next-gen GPUs

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>>102057780
>grandma ddu'd the driver

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>>102057976
What for? Real performance tests won't appear as soon as you think, as a result you can buy something not very good, like 4070.

>>102057949
>You change your phone every 2 years
????

>>102057649
>HUB Steve @ 32:20: I've talked to many retailers and Zen 5 in the first week sold almost 0 units
Grim

>>102057949
>No OLED monitor will survive for more than 2-3 years without severe burnout.
RTINGS benchmarks say it will last 25k hours, that's 6 years of 12h everyday, I bet it can do more if you adhere to 120cd/m2 brightness recommendation for SDR

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>>102058022
On average, people do this, look around

>>102058023
zen4 is just too good

>>102058029
> RTINGS benchmarks say
Ok. Do you believe in DXO too?

>>102058037
If you buy your phone on contracts they give you an incentive to upgrade every 2 years.

But I don't buy contract phones I just get unlocked from some normie who's already selling the phone 50% off since they go down in price fast if it's not a iPhone

>>102058037
I have the same phone since 2015

>>102058048
I believe verifiable results, and rtings results line up with tftcentral. also word of mouth, plenty of people with C2 using it as desktop monitor for years with zero burn in.

>>102057949
>You change your phone every 2 years
But I only just changed my phone after more than 5 years, also to S24 but the base model.

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Hello /pcbg/, I have a WiFi question (ethernet isn't practical in my house, and I don't game)

I was going to get a WiFi extender like pic related, but apparently some routers can be put into a "repeater" mode, so they function just like a WiFi extender. So I might buy a router which can do this.

Have any of you done this? Will the router have the same extending performance of a dedicated extender? I hope so.

>>102057939
on nvidia i avoid to use this since it randomly resets and defaults to no color profile in the middle of random stuff in windows, so it's pure shit too
amd gpu is doa, so fucking terrible
tired

>>102058083
I'll ask here, because SPG people are insane, why not pixel? seems like the most neutral phone possible

>>102057943
>nvidia's driver would not work if it detected AMD's driver in the system
Reminds me antivirus wars.

>>102058090
>on nvidia i avoid to use this since it randomly resets and defaults to no color profile in the middle of random stuff in windows
well, try it again, maybe it's nvidia fault it resets

>>102058088
Get a powerline ethernet adapter.

>>102058094
The features aren't even supported here and it's probably a pain in the ass to try and buy one compared to Samsung, Honor, Xiaomi etc. which are everywhere in comparison.

>>102057943
>>102058104
You can use Nvidia drivers with AMD drivers now. That's how new laptops work for example where the AMD CPU igpu handles display and video while the Nvidia GPU does the gaming and compute.

The issue of having both drivers is more down to software freaking out if it doesn't allow you to select a render target GPU so it can't deciee which GPU to use. Most modern programs have no trouble with this, it's mainly old DX9 console ports like Metal Gear Rising for example.

>>102058166
>The features aren't even supported here
what do you mean? clean android isn't supported?

>>102058124
>swap between using igpu and dgpu on laptop
>have to swap between using windows color profile on and off if using igpu or dgpu if it bugs out on one manufacturer
trying to conserve power on a laptop is tiring after all

>>102058023
amd got too cocky lmao

>>102058186
also apparently display is shit on it too

>>102058129
I already have a pair but the connection drops out periodically, I guess because the wiring in my house is bad. So I think I'll go for WiFi which is fine for my purposes (like I say, I don't game)

Maybe I'll research more. The router solution could be good because I can get a router that apparently supports this functionality for less money than an extender.

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/zHRpfy
Good or nah?
Is it alright to get 6000CL36 instead of CL30 for ~$33 cheaper? Really need to fit in the budget, the alternative is to buy one RAM stick and then the other one later.

>>102058088
I bought a tp link WAP that I was intended to use as a mesh wifi or repeater through the ethernet but they jewed me with fine print and neither of those would work in ethernet mode.
I first tried it in repeater mode, and it was fucking awful, if you have a low signal already, then setting it to repeater mode won't do anything because the link between the extender and the home router will still be bad. It will allow more range of a weak signal. I ended up just using it as a normal wireless access point with it's own ID via ethernet.
In a repeater/extender mode it likely won't matter if you use a router with that mode or a specific extender/access point, it's all the same technology so the differences will be in the strength of the equipment, which will be different to each model and not because it's a router or extender.
If your signal sucks already, getting a router or extender won't make it better (it's just going to connect to the home router in the same way that a PC or laptop or whatever will), so you might want to see if ethernet really isn't possible, or maybe try a powerline system.

>>102058250
if you really need to budget it, eyeball ebay for CPUs
just avoid modern intel CPUs on ebay, they have a massive scam issue where people delid them and put different CPU lids on to make it look like a better CPU

>>102058079
> I believe verifiable results, and rtings results line up with tftcentral. also word of mouth, plenty of people with C2 using it as desktop monitor for years with zero burn in.
Okay nigger

>>102058094
> why not pixel
It's shit. All pixel phones was shit because of exynos and poor quality.

>>102058250
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/9CcgXL/teamgroup-t-force-delta-rgb-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr5-6400-cl32-memory-ff3d532g6400hc32adc01
That's 6400, CL32 and has 10ns first world latency and only costs $95.
If the extra $4 matters (or for whatever reason the above is out of stock), then get one of those:
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/ypRwrH/silicon-power-xpower-zenith-gaming-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr5-6000-cl30-memory-sp032gxlwu60afdg
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/cCKscf/silicon-power-value-gaming-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr5-6000-cl30-memory-sp032gxlwu60afdeae
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/QzP8TW/teamgroup-t-create-expert-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr5-6000-cl30-memory-ctcwd532g6000hc30dc01
These sticks are almost identical in speed & performance and all are better than the one you had in your list.

>>102058184
> what do you mean? clean android isn't supported?
Clean android is shit. Especially how Google does it.

But he talking about pixel unique features, none of that working outside the US

>>102058324
Based flat earther

>>102058255
>If your signal sucks already, getting a router or extender won't make it better
To me it seems to depend on the device. In my bedroom, some devices can have a very decent WiFi connection that works just fine (e.g. my laptop and my phone). But for other devices the connection is painfully slow (e.g. my Raspberry Pi and my TV).

So I'm thinking that an extender should hopefully boost it enough for my Pi and TV. Also I don't have to have the extender in my bedroom. I can put it in other places between the downstairs router and my bedroom.

>ethernet
I wish it was possible but it just won't be really.

>powerline
I've got a couple of powerline terminals already, but it doesn't work well and the connection drops all the time. Maybe the wiring in this house is bad.

>second monitor keeps dropping from 144hz to 70hz randomly
>gpu will jump to 3d clocks and stay there when this happens
>realize it's a fucking BUG with dynamic refresh rate and it turns on by itself even when it's off
>gsync randomly stops working
>realize it's because the taskbar on my other monitors is clipping on my main gsync monitor by a few pixels
>turn off task bar on other monitors and gsync works again
windows is made by fucking stupid NIGGERS making grade school mistakes what the fuck happened between win 7 and 11
why is there a bug literally everywhere
why do i have to troubleshoot my system every fucking day because of windows bugs
if i wanted that experience i'd fucking use linux
fuck windows
fuck the pajeets running that shit and fuck you because i said so
holy FUCK i am steaming at this pile of shit OS

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blackwell status?
What are the chances of the 5070 having more than 16 gb vram?

>>102058534
considering the big new feature of blackwell will be ai compressed 16k textures for a fraction of the cost, 0%.

the 5070 will come with 8gb to prove a point

>>102058177
Gotcha, good to know. >>102057884 here, sounds like it should work out, right?

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>>102058250
If you are really on a budget stick with Zen 4 or budget Intel. Or look for used chips on Ebay like >>102058269 suggests.

One option is a 12600K/32GB DDR4 based build that'd be slightly faster than the 7500F build and for a little less:
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/TZWnYN
Another involves the 5700X3D, which is $143 on AliExpress
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806921974699.html
Combine that with a dirt cheap AM4 mobo & again 32GB of DDR4 ram and you have this for about the same price:
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/Vrpx4M

Both routes don't come with a box cooler so a cheapo tower is all that's required.

>>102058543
>the 5070 will come with 8gb to prove a point
That people will buy any old shit from nvidia?

>>102058543
so doing anything on it that doesn't support dlss will make it shit itself?

>>102058566
DLSS is the future. Regular raster performance is irrelevant. https://research.nvidia.com/labs/rtr/neural_texture_compression/ the 16k texture thing is real btrw

>>102058560
yes

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>>102056032
Which 120mm fans are best for deshrowding a GPU?
The 4080 Noctua is quieter but hotter than the TUF, so would pressure optimized or thicker fan be better?

>>102058566
We call those games slop to discredit them.

>>102058578
>translation: we reached the limit of physics so we cheat and charge you more

>>102058356
>Clean android is shit. Especially how Google does it.
and xiaomi full of shit apps you can't uninstall without brekaing something

>>102058578
>4k textures that look better than 1024x1024 textures for less cost
that is genuinely insane actually

>>102058598
if you have enough room, just slap two phanteks t30s on it. Best 120mm fan on the market

>>102058601
>we reached the limit of physics
not yet, but soon
nvidia will be hit the most after 2nm becomes a thing unless they push MCM as hard as they can

They will be rebranding the "GPU" this generation. Nvidia's cards will be more all purpose AI devices. They will be introducing RTX npc/texture/voice stuff as part of the whole package. Most importantly the DLSS naming scheme is getting rebranded too. No details on the names yet.

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>>102058666
>666
sure thing satan

>>102058666
what devilry is this?!

>>102058666
They'll be calling it an NPU to keep in line with Windows' naming scheme

>>102058666
>GPU...AI
AIPU...?

>>102058666
they'll definitely have AI branding but I expect them to start calling the cards PTX for Path Tracing now that RT is no longer the scam.

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>>102058598
Noctua Industrial PPC. They're designed for very high RPM and have dust & water protection.
You probably don't need the 3000 RPM variants but the 2000 RPM variants move air and while they're obviously loud at max load they haven't whined or made unusual noises in my rig.

>>102058719
>apiu
No. Neural Processing Unit, NPU.

>>102058642
>a thing unless they push MCM as hard as they can
Didn't AMD already run the MCM experiment with RDNA3 and crashed and burned badly because of it?
MCM is less power efficient, has higher latency (a mortal wound in games), and because of packaging costs is more expensive than monolithic designs.

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>>102058666
I HAVE SPOKEN

>>102058666
this message has been brought to you by hell, and is now officially canon

>>102058756
by your logic AMD should've stopped with zen1
it is the only way to overcome node dead end, 2nm will be THE node for 5-8 years. get ready for it.

>>102058666
Lucifer please extradite Jensen back to Hell.

>the two big gpu manufacturers are both related
that genepool must be crazy

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>>102058666
and there will be 10 different editions of 5070 just like with 4070

>>102058816
isn't memory like 30% of nvidia performance?

>>102058756
You can't scale monolithic dies forever effectively - AMD's MCM attempt was laying the groundwork for future generations when it can be done better. MCM gpu is essentially the holy grail as you can scale waaaaaay past reticle limits and actually build monster big gpus.

>>102056752
did you paint it yourself or did you buy it somewhere

>>102054444
i have the same board and upgraded from 2600+1080 to 5800x3d+4080 last year

>>102058808
that's why im on team intel right now

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>>102058952
I painted it myself
used white heat resistant radiator enamel paint on backplate, and I used pure white acrylic paint on the shroud. Sanded the backplate, masked the serial number, and I also masked some parts like the FTW3 on the shroud, and of course all ARGB elements.
At first I tried to mask the red line on the backplate because it would've looked cool, but I just couldn't do it accurately enough, ended up painting over it in the end.

>>102056032
Should I upgrade the bios for my b760m, i'm using a 13400f. Never had an issue.

>>102059010
very nice. Stencil or by hand? If a stencil what did you use?

>>102059013
>Should I upgrade
>Never had an issue
no

>>102058491
> Reee
Burn in is a fact. Since your monitor is working at least 10 hours a day, mostly browsing, start menu will burn in in 10-30 month.

>>102059010
its nice to see people are still diy modding shit in their pcs

>>102058604
> and xiaomi full of shit apps you can't uninstall without brekaing something
I didn't knew that the only alternative of shitxel is MIUI. Other brands didn't exist. And I'm not talking about samshit.

>>102059080
That is some bold assumptions of use case.

>>102058534
I think it's even possible to have 5070 8gb, lol. RAM is expensive.

>>102059032
I used spray paint for both shroud and backplate, light coats with 4-5 minutes of drying time between each layer.
I did the mistake of not being patient enough, I was too excited about it and removed the masking tape too early, and it made the paint peel near the main argb strip. I had to tear some fibers off a brush and manually fix it, thankfully it's not that visible.
I used Rustoleum satin white enamel spraypaint for the backplate, and Morris acrylic pure white spraypaint for the shroud.
Also I used a gunpla toolkit to cut the masking tape and stuff.
>>102059081
Thanks anon, the black ftw3 just looked so out of place in my build that I had to act

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>>102058666
>hardware Copilot that you can't uninstall and that will detect anti-establishment tendencies
Time to stock up on old hardware boys

>>102059120
Very cool anon. I finally have a big desk and am planning on actually putting my PC on my desk rather than under it and have been thinking about neat shit to do with it. I am too tech illiterate to set up the tablets inside the cases so I thought something lower tech might be nice

Is 2160p really noticeable at all over 1440p? Can the eye perceive that difference ?

>>102059138
they should be watching you nigga

>>102059149
depends on whos eyes. I can't tell the difference personally

>>102058666
>Nvidia's cards will be more all purpose AI devices.
>now that AI shit is imploding
lol k

>>102059138
brb buying five 4090s (, a soldering station and spare 12vhpwr connectors) and five 7800x3ds as backup

>>102059149
assuming the 2160p and 1440p monitors have the same PPI, what you would mostly notice is more detail on things at 2160p.

If you however went for a 27" 2160p monitor, things would look crisp on edges and look more detailed. Best of both worlds tbqhfambalam

>>102059158
I have shit eyes

>>102059215
then fuck it fellow 30+ bro

>>102058756
RDNA3 had a performance bug it had nothing to do with it being MCM, Navi 33 was monolithic and was also affected.

>>102059149
depends on the screen size and viewing distance
i mostly regret going from 27" 1440p to 27" 4k because i have to use scaling otherwise shit is way too small to see from my usual viewing distance and some older games dont play too well with scaling

>>102058544
Need latest windows version up to date and supported drivers but if have both then should work

27’ 2160p is a little too small
32’ 2160p is good but the PPI isn’t enough
Give me a 32’ 5k display and I will be satisfied. Doesn’t even have to be OLED. I think I prefer miniLED more anyway.

>>102059267
What about a 32' 1440p is that acceptable?

>>102056499
AMD tards actually believe FX was good
t. FX 6350 owner

>>102059282
If you have bad eyesight sure but that would look blurry as shit to me

>>102059145
Thanks anon. I'm sure the tablets and even old phones can be set up fairly easily, I've seen some guides around. If you wanna paint there are some guides on youtube about painting evga gpus, I used those as inspiration.

>>102056717
why the fuck are those pads so big

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what happened to $300 midrange

>>102059343
Something something inflation

>>102058013
I want to buy something I won't have to replace for ~10 years.

>>102058350
Sorry, forgot to specify I'm not from the US and buying stuff on Aliexpress. In my country I can get something decent for $110, but if I buy this thing in one order with CPU and motherboard I gonna get $40 discount instead of $20, so it'll be just $255 for the entire set. For just the CPU+mobo it would be $180, so the sticks are effectively $75.

>>102058269
Ebay isn't a good option in my case, but browsing my local marketplace. 7500F looks like a better option to me for just $90-100. The seller and the reviews seem to be alright.

>>102058559
>If you are really on a budget stuck with Zen 4
Considering 5700X build as a plan B, but it seems like I can get AM5 for cheap.

>>102059343
remember when a house cost less than $1000?
them were the days i tell ya

>>102059149
Yes, at normal monitor viewing distances. You can even see a difference using 4K DLDSR on a 1440p monitor, i.e., even though the pixel grid is only 1440p, you can STILL see a difference. It's not going to be crazy, as 1440p is a sweet spot for value and image quality, but 4K is better.

>>102059013
>13400f
It's Alder Lake, not Raptor Lake, despite being part of the """13th"""" gen lineup. Not affected by the stability problems.

>>102058756
MCM is the future, but AMD's problem is that it went MCM before it needed to. You only go MCM when monolithic is no longer feasible (outside of a teething phase). Nvidia will be going MCM as well, but it was smarter and milked monolithic as long as it could

>>102058534
>What are the chances of the 5070 having more than 16 gb vram?
None

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>>102056032
>Premium: SN850X, P41
My chink SSd just died I need a new one.
What makes it premium?
What are my options?
Is there any actual difference?
And why the fuck the smallest one is 1TB?
I barely use 200gb

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Does the Fractal Design Torrent come with 3-pin OR 4-pin 140 mm bottom fans? Some people said it was the PWM version for some reason. Wanna get a matching 140 mm exhaust fan.

>>102059149
109ppi at 27" 1440p
140ppi at 32" 4k
163ppi at 27 4k
that's about by how much it's crispier, so either way if you want a bigger screen you have to go 4k or it's a terrible experience

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>>102059358
9800X3D
8900XTX
1080p monitor
Lian Li O11 XL with upright GPU

>>102059450
it is PWM, fully controllable

>>102059484
AMD will not be making a high end RDNA 4 card lel

>>102059440
just get a samsun 870 evo 2.5" 500gb if that's all you need.
if it has to be nvme then a crucial p5 plus or P3 plus.

>>102059541
crucial mx500 is also a good cheap 2.5" ssd.

>>102059513
4080 tier gpu at half the price and at a fraction of the tdp is all you need from AMD

>>102059558
>fraction of the tdp
>AMD

>>102059558
> is all you need from AMD
*to make nvidia cheaper

>>102059558
that seems a bit optimistic, my guess would be in between 4070 ti super and 4080 non super in raster perf, I have heard that RT will be a big focus for this card and if they get the price right (likely between $500-600) then it could be good

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>>102059381
The 1080Ti was slightly better than Titan X
Even if you cope about how it costs more because of cooling, Biden and TSMC wafers, in a non-clown market the 4090 would cost $1000 and that's being generous to Nvidias profit margins

>>102059338
I'll see if I can find a tablet guide. I have an ancient tablet and a couple of old phones sitting around doing nothing. If it can throw diagnostic info while looping though gifs of my wife that would be a significant improvement

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>>102057649
>AVOID AMD
More like avoid Ryzen 9000. Maybe the X3D chips will be better, who knows.

>>102057026
>7700 xt
Poorfag 1440p (as you'll be using garbage FSR a lot). Not worth buying a 1080p monitor at this point.

>>102056871
>Why is 12100 not acceptable for gaming use?
It's fine, but considering substantially better CPUs are barely more, not worth buying for gaming generally speaking

>>102056660
Considering Ryzen 9000 is only a couple of percent better than Ryzen 7000 for gaming, those prices are the maximum that Ryzen 9000 should cost. Parts like the R5 7600/X are below $200

>>102056619
>>102056082
> When a display's refresh rate is lower than the game's frame rate (e.g., a display that renders at 60 Hz while the game renders at 70 FPS)
That's why they're recommending V-sync. However G-sync will automatically cap your FPS at your monitor's refresh rate if it's working properly. Not sure about Freesync, but I doubt it. Capping FPS will work too, it's more complicated, and like the other anon said, the article is aimed at retards. V-sync is the simple solution

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>AI

>>102059562
no more chiplets
power efficiency is back

>>102059567
nvidia is never going to be cheap because they're going gddr6x and gddr7 with compromised vram and cache. amd is doing l3 cache + oc'd gddr6.

>>102059582
$600-650 for sapphire/powercolor 8800xt that can be overclocked to 4080 super tier.

>still the same image again

>>102059672
>overclocked to 4080 super tier.
optimistic much

>>102059558
Yeah, and I'm going to win a 500 million dollar lottery tomorrow, you'll see

>>102059620
You can find some guides on youtube, basically you just install an app on your phone, and one on your pc, connect the phone app to the pc app and it will receive telemetry from there. I'm sure there are different apps available for this.

>>102059700
could happen if RDNA3 bug thing is true and they optimize more, also more common use of AI chip design happened in this time frame
if everything goes well next nvidia GPU going to double in performance(and price) too

Any vr fags in here how much faster is the Nvidia gpus vs my 7900xtx
Barely noticed a difference outside of beaming vs my 2080ti and 69xt

Great GPU tho it sips power in vr something I didn't expect rarely goes over 200-300w hovers around 150+/- even with an oc

>>102059672
>$600-650 for sapphire/powercolor 8800xt that can be overclocked to 4080 super tier.
Do you really believe MLIDs bullshit?

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>>102059558
Zen5
>MLID: 40% UPLIFT!!!
>Reality: 5% lmao

RDNA4
>MLID: 4080 BUT HALF OFF!!!
>Reality: 4050 but 4080 price

>>102058534
Just get a used 3090 6900xt or 6950xt or 7900 gre
Nvidia will always gimp their gpus vram they've done it since the 90s

>>102059700
>>102059709
>>102059773
>>102059780
It's basically RDNA2 on steroids new arch and smaller node. If you don't remember, a OC'd 6800XT regularly beat Nvidia Ampere shit.

>>102059780
>MLID: 40% UPLIFT!!!
>Reality: 5% lmao
Neither of those are true tho.

>>102059554
>>102059541
I need a SSD to run the O.S on can't use a fucking crucial mx I also have a 12700kf and a 200€ mobo not going for a sata SSD

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>>102059773
>>102059780
>M**D
I can't believe anyone even watches this retard anymore

>>102059788
No it didn't

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>>102059780
?

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>>102059811

>>102059788
I have a 6900xt but you don't know any of this and neither does MLID.
>It's basically RDNA2 on steroids new arch and smaller node
MLID make absurd Radeon hopium every year but it doesn't make financial sense for AMD to compete with Nvidia in consumer dGPUs.
>nvidia cultists will never buy it, they only want nvidia forced into pricecuts
>techtubers will say but the DLSS
>AMD can't compete with the ultra retard top end halo SKU and normalfags will think that the xx90/titan being better means everything else is

>>102058756
I'm using my 79xtx rn it's fine but really should have had 4090 d performance for the money
At 800usd before tax it's a good buy in this market still half the price of 4080ti dog shit here

>>102059788
is going from 5 to 4nm even enough of a change?
I do believe they can get it above 2.9Ghz though.
I'm more worried aobut timing, they are going to fuck it up and line up the release with nvidia instead of taking market by storm. Rajesh was the last sane marketing dude in AMD with Polaris, too bad he was a shit engineer and fucked vega up

>>102059341
yeah thats why I'm replacing it with putty before summer.

>>102058729
I did the 3k rpm on an old 2080ti back in the day wish I kept it. I'll use two server 5k rpm fans if my 79xtx fans die

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>>102059826
I think we all know how accurate AMD's benchmarks are, AMDrone

>>102059651
>Considering Ryzen 9000 is only a couple of percent better than Ryzen 7000 for gaming, those prices are the maximum that Ryzen 9000 should cost. Parts like the R5 7600/X are below $200
yeah that's kind of my point, that's what AMD should have priced them at.

>>102059780
>>MLID: 40% UPLIFT!!!
didn't he say that it literally will NOT be 40%

>>102058666
Thanks techsatan

>>102059831
>>102059855
you dont have or know shit you're just a random jit posting flamewar garbage.

>>102059835
rdna2 was kneecapped by consoles. this is practically rdna2+. aibs are gonna unlock the shit outta of it. they wasted their time too much beta testing chiplets.

>>102059343
Still here except it's now low end a770 used 6800 etc 2080ti 3080 and so fourth

>>102059343
Still exists but it's bait for cheap prebuilts.

>>102059874
>jit
Look it's that one SEA monkey who pollutes this thread with AMDelusion

>>102059866
Correct but the hivemind doesn't agree with that so we are revising history.

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>AMD Releases slide showing 16%
>MLID: AMD HIDING REAL NUMBER. 23% FASTER
>1 month later: 5%

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>>102058666
Hello, Lucifer. How is the weather in hell?

>>102059937
It is around that according to phoronix.

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Zen6 is another big uplift goys

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I might pull the trigger on a 2060SC in a little while, feels good man

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Is there any reason not to get a 28" / 4k / 144hz monitor?
I had an LG 32gr93u for about 4 months and it started getting flickering black lines at the bottom, more noticable at lower refresh rates, and I'm taking it in to the store. Apparently it's from a melting cable and it's a known problem on some LG monitors so I wanted to get a different brand and not be monitorless for a week.

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>fairly safe to conclude Zen 5 has a 20%+ IPC increase
>on track for early 2024
thank you amd

>>102060281
>lg melting cables
i have literally never heard this before

if you want a 27' 2160p monitor just get the 27m2v it's always on sale for like 400 bucks on amazon

>>102060121
>>102060288
>light theme
you are even more disgusting than that neckbeard you show screenshots of

>>102060290
>i have literally never heard this before
https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/101253812/#q101266815
https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/98378862/#98382927

Also a post on leddit that came up on gooogle going into more detail about it

>>102059937
MLID overhypes every AMD product pre-release why do people still listen to him

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>>102060371
ok well like i said https://www.amazon.com/INNOCN-Monitor-Computer-Connectivity-Adjustable/dp/B0BCK1Z5FD?th=1

pros
mini led with highest # of dimming zones
hdr 1000
4k 27'
it's only $500

cons
chink brand
no real warranty
poor build quality
god awful matte coating on screen

if you can deal with all that, it's a good buy

>>102059343
It's so over bros

>>102059809
Pick one of these that's within your budget and it'll be fine:
Crucial P5 Plus
Samsung 980 Pro
Corsair MP600 (except CORE) or MP700
Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus
Seagate Firecude 530 or 540
Team Cardea A440 & A440 Pro
WD SN850 and SN850X

>>102060419
on the bright side we are moving to APUs as strong as $350 cards

>>102060458
I have seen people proclaim the year of the apu every year for over a decade now
I'll believe it when I see it

>>102060512
Which comes first, year of the apu or year of the linux desktop?

>>102056084
Improved in everything except side activities and freeroaming in general. in 4 you just do shit to get money, then use the money to buy weapons to do shit

>>102056032
>$600 gpu
>1080p
My GTX 970 was $300 brand new and ran everything on ultra.

>>102060512
Year of the apu happened when apple launched the M1

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>>102060585
is that so?

>>102060451
which one of those is better?
the SN850X 1TB is 70€ here seems good

>>102060458
That really isn't saying much when the $350 card has the specs of a xx50 tier GPU

I am ready for battlemage

>>102060458
It's gonna be the same situation with any AMD mobile GPU efforts: extremely limited model selection and availability. with the 0.001% chance it would appear in ITX/MATX motherboard

so is there any downside to buying an AMD GPU? I mostly play Final Fantasy Dawn Trail and generate images of my characters using AI.

>>102060858
you miss out on rtx features and your idle power draw will suck

aside from that no but those are pretty big things imo

>>102060655
That list are all similar high end, high speed, NVME PCIE 4x Gen 4 or Gen 5 drives with dram, which means you can pick whatever is cheapest or easiest to find in whatever capacity you want.
The main differences will be their TBW longevity and warranty but you'd have to check each drive type because it will be different for each brand and each capacity, but if either of those is important then you can look into that and pick.

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What fucking settings am I supposed to use on Black Myth Wukong? Fucking chinks can't design a game without frame gen.
I have a 7800x3d and 7800xt. There's no option to turn super resolution off.
I tried FSR and TSR, FSR looks the best but you can still tell there's some artifacting around hair (which there is a lot of) when in motion.

>>102060880
>7800xt
you have nobody to blame but yourself lol

>>102060858
AI is a lot better on nVidia.

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>poorfag question
Recently got back into gaming and my old 1050Ti just doesn't cut it. Don't want to spend much. Found a 1660Ti for $75. From this chart it seems it would at least double my fps. If so, I would be happy. Is the chart right or am I going to be disappointed?

>>102060858
you miss out on dlss etc, and a lot of useful non-gaming related software that uses GPU's will be built solely to work on nvidia cards/software.
>>102060880
Can't you just frame lock it in whatever AMD's control panel is called?

>>102060869
>your idle power draw will suck
nta but couldn't I just switch to the iGPU when I don't need it?

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>>102060858
>generate images of my characters using AI
you not going to go very far with an amd

Just two more months of giga overtime left for arrowlake left lads, holy fuck I can't wait for this shit to be over, 200+ hour months aint human

Do I build a living room bazzite PC, or do I get/wait for steam deck 2?

>>102060880
pretty sure you can set it to 100%

>>102060899
that seems like a stupid idea but i guess it would work?

>>102060930
>he doesn't have the discretionary income

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>"A ground up redesign"
yeah sure, amd

>>102060972
It sure ground up the Ryzen goodwill though

>>102060952
uh, my work laptop has a nividia card and I can switch between the internal one and the nivida one through the panel, takes like 5 seconds, that's what I mean. Whats the problem for doing this with AMD?

Is 500€ a good price for a regular 4070 in Europe? I know it should be about 15-20% cheaper than a 4070 Super because it's that much worse but realistically it's near impossible to find that. Also, does GDDR6X make a difference? I don't wanna be stuck paying the same price for a worse GPU in a few days/weeks?

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>>102060972
this is what you called a resign from ground up (arrowlake) not whatever marketing scam amd pulled off. zen 5 literally looks no different than zen 4.

>>102060993
laptops are designed to do that

>>102060894
That chart leans more into RT heavy games, but if you don't care about that you can get a 1080ti for around 100$ mate. And that's being generous. With it you'll be able to play the vast majority of games on 1080p if you wanna be a cheapskate, but it's not especially future proof, I'm surprised it even lasted this long.
If you can afford more, the RX6700 XT and 2080ti are going for usually about ~200-250$

>>102060972
WTF is up with all the solder bridges?

>>102061001
That's only if you're a consoomer who is incapable of understanding uarch design

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>>102060458
Can't happen because lack of memory bandwidth. Yes apple m and strix point exist but I think most people here don't want something fully integrated like that.

>>102060894
A 1660ti is near identical to a 1070 (minus 2gb of graphics ram) so you can use that as a kind of baseline.
https://gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/2658-gtx-1050-ti-and-1050-review-benchmarks-vs-460-more
>BF1 DX 11 1080p
1050ti - 40 1% low
1070 - 95 1% low
>gear war 4
1050ti - 50 1% low
1070 - 117 1% low
So yeah, you're basically looking at double in most games. Now I have no idea if other newer products can be go as cheap as that, but if all you need is something at that price, well then you should be happy, as long as you don't get the 1660ti and then over load it with fancy graphics it can't handle.

>>102061029
>your just not high iq enough to trust the plan
You fags are worse when Intel released 11th gen

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>>102060883
It looked great in BG3. I did two full playthroughs with it and never noticed any visual issues, but in this game it's really apparent maybe because I can't turn off super resolution. Apparently DLSS also looks like shit and has issues.

>>102060942
Setting it to 100% tanks my framerate and while it does look (slightly) better, it still has the hair issues

So is the 7600X3D going to be a real product?

>>102061123
No.

>>102061123
AMD is barely a real company.

>>102061046
If they made a unified Big-Boy APU mobo with like a 7800X3D and the 7900 XT and 32GB of CAMM/soldered memory for $600 or so I'd sell well.

>>102061123
5600x3d was a real product for a month for publicity stunt. wouldn't be surprised if amd pull it off again for some quick attention

>>102061177
>>102061177
>>102061177

>>102061182
>removes 7800XT, 7900GRE and 7900XTX from the OP
You faggot

>>102060637
Hyper is not Ultra
Worth noting the R9 390 is also unplayable

>>102061200
I don't recommend overpriced garbage

>>102061215
>4080, 4090, 4070Ti

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>>102060858
>Final Fantasy Dawn Trail
If that's DX11, you need to make sure you won't be fucked over by Radeon's DX11 driver. Also like anon >>102060910 said, if you spend a lot of time with generative AI, Nvidia is the far better choice both for value and ease of use

>>102060894
Minimum GPU purchase is The RTX 2060 6 GB, because it has DLSS. Massively better than a GTX 1660 Ti and not much more money

>>102060999
>but realistically it's near impossible to find that
I would get the 4070 Super if possible

>does GDDR6X make a difference?
No, not from what I've seen

>>102061017
>That chart leans more into RT heavy games
No it doesn't. The GTX cards aren't capable of RT HW acceleration

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>>102060880
>There's no option to turn super resolution off.
No shit, retard. I guess maybe you've missed all my posts in this thread? Demanding Unreal Engine 5 games are all designed with reconstruction in mind. Get used to FSR

Another recent UE5 game with forced reconstruction:
>There is no option for "no upscaling,"
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/senuas-saga-hellblade-2-benchmark/3.html

Here's an optimization guide:
https://youtu.be/NlkgVAWqcKY?si=Rz5QMJedq5e1-1D4
That's the best optimization channel in my opinion, better than Digital Foundry at this point

>>102061090
>Apparently DLSS also looks like shit and has issues.
Foliage has problems with all the reconstruction techniques used in Chink Virus, but DLSS is far better than FSR or TSR.

>the overall image is suffering from excessive ghosting, pixelation in motion and heavy disocclusion artifacts. Every swing of the players weapon or any fast movement of your character in general is followed by very visible pixelation, ghosting and smearing artifacts, which is very distracting, especially during intense boss fights. The FSR 3 image also has a degraded quality of particle effects, especially visible on fire, waterfalls and water effects in general. As this game is not using the 3.1 version of FSR, enabling FSR 3 Frame Generation with FSR upscaling will exaggerate the ghosting and pixelation artifacts to be even more visible during gameplay.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/black-myth-wukong-dlss-vs-fsr-vs-xess-comparison/

>>102061436
>No shit, retard. I guess maybe you've missed all my posts in this thread
Why would I read your nvidia shill slop? Fuck off retard

>>102061326
>>102061436
Chatgpt, give me a step by step guide to mold my own dildo.

>>102061458
Because I'm smarter than you
Born out by the fact that I'm right
You're now learning that I'm the Prophet of /pcbg/

Thoughts on 8700G? Say you want a $500 PC for old games, wouldn't this be a great buy? Or is it better to go with 5600/6600 instead?

>>102061215
they are literally the only amd cards worth using