Erasmian edition>Fyrri þráðrinn:>>23818076>Bǿkr á vǫlsku/grekisku:https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw>Mál frá Asíu ok Afríku:https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg>Work in progress FAQhttps://rentry dot co/n8nrkoAll Classical languages are welcome.
First for starting with Homeric Greek.>>23856219
Question for anyone who wants to answer it: Who is your favorite author in the language you're studying who is not a man?
>>23856373easy win for Sappho(the only one I have ever engaged with in the first place)
>>23856022Things that actually helped me learn latin:Familia romanaFabulae syraeSermones romaniAmpithryoColloquia familiaria with annotations (scan + chat gpt to help me with some harder or more obscure lines) Skipping the vulgateBiblia sacra interprete sebastiano castellioneHavent read any "real latin" other than the excerpts
>>23856772I should mention lewis and short (on android) wiktionary for forgotten declentions and macron help, some helpful youtube videos by latin per diem or satura lanx
>>23856772If you haven’t read any real Latin then you haven’t learned Latin. Antiquity was nothing like our modern era with conventions standardized by the printing press and mass literacy. Every author has a unique style that has to be learned. Skipping the Vulgate is especially stupid since it’s one of the most accommodating “real Latin” texts available with regard to style. If this is bait then well done, for I’m mad.
Does anyone know that modern book about the extensive ancestor worship in Bronze Age Rome and Greece, how everything in life revolved around appeasing one's dead ancestors going on 7 generations back, and it also went into land inheritance and marriage and so on?
>>23857412Nevermind, found it. The Ancient City by Coulanges. I highly recommend it by the way
>>23856772Why not read the LLPSI caesar?Do you just find it boring?
>>23856772Plautus is great once you know a little Latin. My friends and I had a blast with him.
please allow languages for literature related purpose here like french or german
>>23856772For how long have you been studying latin?
>>23856772>Havent read any "real latin" other than the excerptskekLLPSI devotees in a nutshell
>>23856772What's even the point of learning Latin if you are unwilling to actually read anything originally written in it? I moved onto Caesar as soon as I felt confident enough to.
>>23858294People actually speak French and German though. They aren't Classical, or a historical language that fits in with this thread.
>>23859050but there being learned for /lit/ reasons and they will die on their own please have a heart
>>23857412>>23857438Coulanges is interesting and wirth reading, but I'd take him with a great deal of caution. Checking his citations is important, and keeping in mind that he takes a lot at face value and doesn't inquire as to whether the author he cites might have a polemic in mind, or whether the format (poetry, whether early lyrics written at the behest of tyrants, or tragic or comedic works that might exaggerate this or that or take as ancient what was only customary at the time) affects the message.Some citations, for example, to Plato, are done according to the edition available to him, and not to Stephanus pages, making matters murky. When he cites Plato’s Cratylus, among other texts, as evidence that "Every prayer to any god whatever must commence and end with a prayer to the fire," I'm not sure where specifically look, but knowing that text well, I also know that none of the passages about the gods, fire, sacrifices, or prayer line up with this statement. Likewise, when he cites Plato's Theaetetus in support of the statement, "On that day the father assembled the family, assembled witnesses, and offered a sacrifice to his fire. The child was presented to the domestic gods; a female carried him in her arms, and ran, carrying him, several times round the sacred fire," I can no such passage, unless he's distorting the meaning of 174e-175b, or inventing a tradition by conflating that passage with his other citation in that note.
>>23859169To add, Coulanges at one point asserts, "Plato, in his treatise on the Laws, which is largely a commentary on the Athenian laws..." which, while there is implicitly comment on Athenian law, is otherwise untrue to the overall thrust of the work.
>>23859075Sorry, mid-Deutschman and old French cock only.
>>23859044It's not that I refuse to ever read anything actually ancient. This is simply my way of getting comfortable with the language to the point that I can navigate it better and then choose what I would actually like to read next. One of the reasons I found latin interesting is the large corpus after all. Before I was jumping from augustine of hippo and the vulgate to livy and caesar, which I found to be a pretty terrible experience. Not entirely sure what contributed to this experience the most, whether it was due to those works being boring or too hard for me at the time or perhaps the difference in style of the vulgate compared to livy is just too big or simply my previous knowledge of roman history too non existent. Your way could look very different from mine, but from these works I have personally gained the most benefit.
>>23859181I haven’t read that in a couple years but the “Athenian stranger” (ahem Socrates) is comparing the laws of noble Crete against those of his native Athens in that dialogue which is in fact the main thrust of it. It is his dissatisfaction with Athenian law which gets the conversation going. That is an incredibly minor nitpick besides.
>>23860115That is not the main thrust, which is rather the Athenian Stranger influencing the laws for a new city Cretan city Kleinias is setting up, and in so doing, showing something about the activity of legislation in general. That the conversation is kicked off by a discussion of the Athenian practice of wine symposiums doesn't mean comparisons to Athenian laws hold, since markedly little about the dialogue brings up any specifically Athenian customs and laws at all. This is not a notpick, since it bears on Coulanges' judgement, and when he says the Laws is largely a commentary on Athenian laws, this is a poor judgement, since he's insensitive to what Plato's doing in a dialogue that characterizes the regime they're setting up as a second-best regime. If anything, Coulanges is an interesting and helpful reminder of how messy things get when ancient works are read in order to support a thesis without sensitivity to other features of those works.
How different are the kanbun kanji from the modern ones?
>>23859927>gained the most benefitYou don't know what 'benefit' you have gained because all you read are readers. You even put "real Latin" in quotes.It's like a piano student telling musicians >Things that actually helped me learn piano>The Big Book of Chords>Scales for Dummies>Ultimate Blues Riffs>Twinkle Twinkle Little Star (tab)>Haven't played any "real songs" other than excerptsDon't bother replying or posting until you've finished an actual book.
>>23859169>distorting the meaning of 174e-175bexplain what you mean by that>τῶν [174ε] νομέων τὸν τοιοῦτον ἀναγκαῖον γίγνεσθαι, σηκὸν ἐν ὄρει τὸ τεῖχος περιβεβλημένον. γῆς δὲ ὅταν μυρία πλέθρα ἢ ἔτι πλείω ἀκούσῃ ὥς τις ἄρα κεκτημένος θαυμαστὰ πλήθει κέκτηται, πάνσμικρα δοκεῖ ἀκούειν εἰς ἅπασαν εἰωθὼς τὴν γῆν βλέπειν. τὰ δὲ δὴ γένη ὑμνούντων, ὡς γενναῖός τις ἑπτὰ πάππους πλουσίους ἔχων ἀποφῆναι, παντάπασιν ἀμβλὺ καὶ ἐπὶ σμικρὸν ὁρώντων ἡγεῖται τὸν ἔπαινον, ὑπὸ>[175α] ἀπαιδευσίας οὐ δυναμένων εἰς τὸ πᾶν ἀεὶ βλέπειν οὐδὲ λογίζεσθαι ὅτι πάππων καὶ προγόνων μυριάδες ἑκάστῳ γεγόνασιν ἀναρίθμητοι, ἐν αἷς πλούσιοι καὶ πτωχοὶ καὶ βασιλῆς καὶ δοῦλοι βάρβαροί τε καὶ Ἕλληνες πολλάκις μυρίοι γεγόνασιν ὁτῳοῦν: ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ πέντε καὶ εἴκοσι καταλόγῳ προγόνων σεμνυνομένων καὶ ἀναφερόντων εἰς Ἡρακλέα τὸν Ἀμφιτρύωνος ἄτοπα αὐτῷ καταφαίνεται τῆς σμικρολογίας, ὅτι [175β] δὲ ὁ ἀπ᾽ Ἀμφιτρύωνος εἰς τὸ ἄνω πεντεκαιεικοστὸς τοιοῦτος ἦν οἵα συνέβαινεν αὐτῷ τύχη, καὶ ὁ πεντηκοστὸς ἀπ᾽ αὐτοῦ, γελᾷ οὐ δυναμένων λογίζεσθαί τε καὶ χαυνότητα ἀνοήτου ψυχῆς ἀπαλλάττειν. ἐν ἅπασι δὴ τούτοις ὁ τοιοῦτος ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν καταγελᾶται, τὰ μὲν ὑπερηφάνως ἔχων, ὡς δοκεῖ, τὰ δ᾽ ἐν ποσὶν ἀγνοῶν τε καὶ ἐν ἑκάστοις ἀπορῶν.
>>23859927Stop jumping from texts then. Unless you’re committing the a sizeable amount of each work at a time you should be just sticking to one. I’ve been reading Caesar and mostly only Caesar for a long while. I might move on to read a biography by Nepos to break it up but it’s still 90% Caesar. You could just read the Vulgate, granted you won’t improve leaps and bounds because it’s probably the easiest text you could read but it’s better than nothing.
>>23860773>explain what you mean by thatThat the passage in question pertains to ancestors, relevant to Coulanges' theses about the importance of ancestors, but says nothing of the sort about any ritual of the kind Coulanges cites the Theaetetus in support of. If he means, perhaps, the midwife passage (149a-151d), there's nothing of the sort there, either.
>>23860848160e>Σωκράτης>τοῦτο μὲν δή, ὡς ἔοικεν, μόλις ποτὲ ἐγεννήσαμεν, ὅτι δή ποτε τυγχάνει ὄν. μετὰ δὲ τὸν τόκον τὰ ἀμφιδρόμια αὐτοῦ ὡς ἀληθῶς ἐν κύκλῳ περιθρεκτέον τῷ λόγῳ, σκοπουμένους μὴ λάθῃ ἡμᾶς οὐκ ἄξιον ὂν τροφῆς τὸ γιγνόμενον,oopsturns out you don't read Greek
>>23859169Cratylus, 401d>τὸ γὰρ πρὸ πάντων θεῶν τῇ Ἑστίᾳ πρώτῃ προθύειν εἰκὸς ἐκείνους οἵτινες τὴν πάντων οὐσίαν ‘ἐσσίαν’ ἐπωνόμασανOdd that one who 'knows that text well' doesn't know this passage or Hestia's function in Greek religion.Also odd that you conveniently left out all the other references providing context to Coulanges' claims.What isn't odd is that some 4chan retard who can't read Greek would presume to enter a thread about classical languages and disparage one of the all time great books on the classical world. Hope the (You)'s were worth it, fag
>>23860746It's more like>things that actually helped me learn piano>Alfred's Course>Faber's Adult Piano adventures>HanonThe alternative is thinking you don't need to bother with any of that shit and just jumping straight into Für Elise or Moonlight Sonata with the sloppiest techniques and total lack of rhythm
what can I do with classics beside teach? All the nafris and blacks ruined my classes
>>23860951>Don't bother replying or posting until you've finished an actual book
>>23860973Read things in Latin and Greek
>>23858294/int/ has a /lang/ thread for modern languagesAllowing them here would just split the threads, harming them both, as well as drown out classical language discussion.
>>23860973Read
>>23856373Hrotsvitha is interesting.
>>23860973Read copious amounts of poetry and fantasize about impressing potential mates by reciting Ovid from memory (it won’t work)
Σκίβιδι βοπ, βοπ, βοπ, ναί, ναί
>>23863310Skibidi Alcibiades. Skibidi Alcibiades Alcibiades is using Persia’s language!
>>23856772>Havent read any "real latin" other than the excerptsIs this anti-LLPSI psyop bait? Just go onto Caesar or Nepos jfc.
Why do retards take "read a lot of comprehensible input" to mean "read readers for 5 years before you ever open a real text"?
>>23863671Fear of failure mostly. That and getting all advice on learning from youtube grifters.I also suspect that they are not nearly as proficient as they believe and are unprepared for actual texts. Admitting this is heresy so they stay close to the nest.
>>23863637>>23863671It’s obvious bait and he cleaned house with nine (You)’s. The absolute state of /clg/
>>23863671Well it shouldn't take 5 years but different people have different responsibilitiesAnyway I think it's mostly due to wanting to avoid translationIf you approach a text with grammar that's too difficult and a lot of vocabulary that you're unfamiliar with it's unavoidable that you'll translate the text in your head, for example parsing the words in a sentence and then thinking about their grammatical functions to obtain a meaning
nuper ego legui liber quae est titulatus "Harrius Potterius et Lapis Philosophos," Est scripta primus anglice sed translatam latine. et multo bonum esset. ego alia liber nunc legem et in hoc loco ego scribibo meos cogitationes. Lingua latinam pulchrum est et ego omnem diem scribo in eo.
dic sis quaeso latine nunc, quamquam intellexi quae sermone quodam romanico dixisti
>>23864100Haec esca manifesta est
>>23864100hoc libellum "Harrius Potterius" mucho amo quia in Mexico nos quoque legimus id. Amo esse Mexicanen quia possum legere loquerique Latine ab natu, quia eadem lingua est Espanola et Latina.
adestne doctus qui sententias a me compositas mendare possit?1. meretrix ad medicum adiit ut ab eo salutiferas herbas acciperet ardenti vaginae. 2. piscator fame moriens in rustici tugurium irrupit ut caseum surriperet. hoc facto, rusticus ab agris reversus domum, ostio aperto viso, furens inivit ut sciret quid raptum fuisset. 3. lilium nubibus cantabat ut serenaret caelum
>Phrygia erat, per quam ducebatur exercitus: pluribus vicis quam urbibus frequens tunc habebat nobilem quondam Midae regiam.It was Phrygia, through which the army was lead. It was full of more villages than cities, (&) then had a certain noble queen of Median stock (?).Am I reading this correctly? From QCR
>>23865896Or wait it's "at the city of Midas" isn't it.
>>23865896>>23865896Nice, I just reread book 3 today. I believe you are correct other than that regiam refers to a very famous palace of King Midas rather than a queen. I quite like QCR but some of the language he uses while painting the landscape is a bit difficult for the Caesar trained reader. Probably a good thing though
>>23866000Also does anyone recommend that new Logos LGPSI book that came out last year? I am about to finish the athenaze spanish translation and am debating whether to just finish book 1 with the Italian edition or utilize some other readers first. Those Greek textbooks are expensive AF in the states compared to the latin ones, harder to find online too.
>>23866000Yeah he's kicking my ass. I think I'm just going to read De Bello Civili then Confessiones then maybe I'll give it another go since I have to look too much up to read comfortably. Also yeah you're right I was mixing up regina and regiaI've found he's way harder than his Greek equivalent, Arrian, but maybe I was just at a further stage in Greek when I tackled that.
Et tuum dominus
>>23864053>parsing the words in a sentence and then thinking about their grammatical functions to obtain a meaningoh no anything but that
>>23868344That’s not reading.
>>23868443Which chapter of LLPSI are you on?
>>23868454Nothing wrong with grammar translation, but it’s not comprehension. More like solving a fun little puzzle
>>23857238What exactly constitutes "real Latin" anyway? Is there a particular cutoff date?
>>23860688Nowadays textbooks of kanbun sometimes use modern character forms in the body text. That said, the difference between shinjitai and kyuujitai isn't too massive; it's really only a couple hundred distinct simplifications when you consider the ones that are made by carrying over the same simplified elements (e.g. 學覺鶯 -> 学覚鴬, 狀將壯 -> 状将壮, 賣讀續 -> 売読続). At least to me, it doesn't feel nearly as barbarous as the Chinese simplified forms; that is, the Japanese simplified forms generally feel like characters that could plausibly have existed in the traditional system.
>>23862203What did Hrotsvitha write? I'm assuming this is a Norse author by the name?
>>23863671Maybe by analogy to the study of modern languages? It wouldn't be weird to not attempt to tackle e.g. Shakespeare until you've been studying English for five years, and much of the 'real Latin' we have is on par with Shakespeare in terms of being difficult and literary.
>>238688322 October, 2024 AD.You missed the boat. Only you are fake Latin.
>>23868606I think it can help a lot if, after having parsed out the meaning of a sentence with grammatical analysis, you read it over to yourself while picturing the meaning.
>>23868876You omit the detail that Kyujitai characters remain in use in family names, place names, and even product names. Effectively, they are variants. It isn't at all comparable to the massacre that was obligatory Chinese character simplification.
>>23868904They're not very common in ordinary printed text, at any rate, but yes that's also true.
>>23868912國 is exceedingly common
>>23868885She was a German nun in Gandersheim, which is part of modern day Germany. Her most interesting works are her plays, which were generally hagiographical and intended to replace Terence for reading in the cloister. Since the women in Terence are generally loose and immoral, she wanted to make a contrast with the ideal, self-controlled, Christian nun. She was also the first person (first PERSON, not first woman) to write dramas in the West since the fall of the Roman Empire.She is rather hard to read but pretty interesting imo. A lot of her stuff reminds me of love stories with a female protagonist, except that the part of the boyfriend is played by God.
>>23868929True. I haven't seen e.g. 歡 or 專 all that oft4en though.
>>23868937When did she live? I'm guessing based on your description she wrote in Latin rather than Old High German? What makes her hard to read? Does she depart markedly from classical standards?
>>23868956Go to Kyoto or an Onsen town. You'll see not just kyujitai but hentaigana fairly often.
>>23869038Aren't they used for similar effect as 'Ye Olde' type spellings in English?
What's the difference between ablative of separation and dative of separation? >diu repugnanti filiae suae nodum virginitatis eripuitsomething like "he snatched the knot of virginity from his daughter, though she resisted for a long time"Why isn't it ablative instead?
>>23868832Latin written by a native or fluent speaker.
>>23869162And I suppose LSL Latin from antiquity or the middle ages counts as real Latin too since it was still spoken then so they were actually basing their bad Latin on what native and fluent speakers spoke.
>>23868344Yeah it is reading but if you're at a high enough level or reading something easy you just do it without thinking
>>23869162So Latin by a present-day fluent speaker is real Latin?
>>23868959She wrote in Latin in the 900s. Her style definitely diverts from classical norms (probably reflects the spoken Latin of her city) while also being consciously archaic in imitation of Terence, which is quite a combo. There is at least one sentence I remember that no scholar has been anle to parse as grammatically correct, though most of her sentences do make sense if you look at them long enough.
>>23868937>Her most interesting works are her plays, which were generally hagiographical>Not the Gesta Ottonis
>>23869208I don't care a jot about that.
>>23868344It's not reading, it's sight translating
>>23869194If he's actually fluent yeah
pro qua causa illi homines non latinam hablunt? si latinam sabistis, latinam hablaberitis. istos fasciculi numquam scrivunt lingua latina porquod sunt idiotes.
>>23869325This is like the Romance equivalent of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit.
>>23869325>fasciculikill yourself spic faggot leave our general in memoria etiam nunc habeo tua peccata
>>23869626scinde linguam tuam anglicam fasciculi. si iterum mihi locutus eris anglice, lupus te dormientem in tuo cubiculo iugulabit. deinde in cadavere tuo cacabit. aude fusiciculi iterum
Is chatgpt correct?
>>23868606Avoiding the question, why?Which chapter of LLPSI are you on?
>>23869228kekMake peace with knowing you will never 'read' Tacitus, Pindar or Thucydides' orations then. For that matter you will never 'read' much of anything
>>23869798Yeah you have a good point about very difficult authorsPersonally I think sight translating can still be enjoyable and it's far easier and more accessible than reading
>>23869863The issue is that sight translating will, especially if you get good enough, turn into reading as you no longer need to gloss things. In either case you're going to have to sit down and wrestle with the grammar in Thucydides. His narration I can do quickly with glosses, but once it gets to speeches you have to concentrate and peel it apart.
>>23869892But then you won't be reading™ according to LLPSI babbies who still haven't finished their first textbook and most likely never will
possum credere hunc fasciculum habere non mentem sed caca electronica in capite suo nam is est anglicus ergo idiotus.
>>23869892Yeah it can so long as you transition to reading left to right without having to dart around the sentencePersonally I'm able to do the most basic of sentence types, for example genitives aren't so difficult so long as they're describing possession, most of the time I can do the same with accusative if it's the direct object and dative case if it's the indirect object but most of the time I have to look around the sentence to understand how the verbs and prepositions are related to the nouns, adjectives and pronouns I wish I knew how people whose native language is highly inflected do it
>>23869903I tried the LLPSI way and never finished the books. And then I threw myself into a Cicero class after 3 semesters of Greek and a little speedreading of wheelock. Turned out pretty well. You need to quickly move onto real authors.
Can someone please explain the meaning of the back half of this sentence from Cicero's Catilinarians? It's really difficult to parse, and different translations I find translate it in wildly different ways, often with different meanings.>si te iam, Catilina, comprehendi, si interfici iussero, credo, erit verendum mihi ne non hoc potius omnes boni serius a me quam quisquam crudelius factum esse dicat.First part is easy: "if I were now, Cataline, to order you to be arrested, killed, I believe..." and then it falls apart. Is he more worried that people will call him slow, or cruel? It feels like it would make more sense that he'd be afraid of being called slow, but I just can't unpack it.
>>23869731Imagine getting Latinmogged by gpt jflSo over for Latinx
Hunc Mexicanum decollabo deinde irramubo caput eius, si se iterum hic ostendat.
>>23869731>"hablaberitis" should be "loquimini" or "hablabitis">or "hablabitis"lmao>>23870005lmfao
>>23870013Quam homosexualis!
My knowledge of Attic Greek continues, along with Latin. I can read Homer in the original with great ease..No more those woke translations, I can see what a real titan of poetry wrote. (Also read Sappho, which was worthless. Do not understand why her work was preserved). My Latin is not yet fluent but with care I am able to read the Aeneid. Again, it's amazing how much better it is in the original. Translations are just lies that obscure the language and meaning. Greek and Latin should be taught in schools and those who do not succeed in them should be enslaved.
>>23870157>Also read Sappho, which was worthless. Do not understand why her work was preservedSappho is a meme. She has like two complete poems and the rest are one or two word fragments. She is remembered because she was influential in antiquity.
some of the definitions on perseus (before you click on the dictionary) are hilarious>assiduus: by the busy anvil
>>23869972>I believe......I will have to fear that this (action) will be sooner deemed tardily effected/done by all good men rather than cruelly by anyoneI have more trouble rewriting it in decent english while keeping the general structure.I don't know too much the context other than it's in Catilinam but I guess it could also be interpreted as hyperbolic? As in, "if I will do what needs to be done with you, at best they'll accuse me of having done it too late than to have been cruel"
I'm going to be doing a condensed first year Latin course next year. I've been self learning (poorly) for a long time and just read Caesar usually. I have no idea if it'll be easy or out of my depth but working on all the terms and proper analysis I never bothered to learn will be good
>favorite Greek author: Lucian>favorite composer: MozartI don't get it. Why does he only enjoy his namesakes?
Real post from r/latin>I’m trying to read naturally and I’m not checking cases or declension or what the grammatical name for each word is as I wouldn’t do that in English. It’s mostly clear from the context if its past or future or whatever.
>>23869215Why not? She's the first woman historian we still have writings of
>>23871710>She's the first woman historianNigga where do you think you are
>>23870157How long did it take you to be able to read Homer? I’m still working through the Aeneid but I’m itching to start learning Greek
Greek has Palladas and Semonides for incelcore authors. What about Latin?
>>23871997Greek and Latin are already incelcore
>>23871710I don't like history as much as drama in general, and I certainly do not care about the history of some medieval dynasty from an era and place that do not interest me. Surely it's other people's cup of tea, but not mine.
>>23869157other verbs with this kind of meaning e.g aufero/surripio/adimo take the dative as a sort of complement of specification i.e to whom you are doing the action even though indeed you could naturally expect an ablative looking closer at the meaning, but I don't think there's much logic to it, try to remember them
>>23871671That's about the advice I've gotten from one of the most multilingual people I know- throw yourself into immersion, figure out grammar as you go. And yes, this person knows both modern and ancient languages.
>>23872722>just guess, bro
>>23871977...a place that is not /pol/?>>23872730Hey, she's the one who's fluent in about half a dozen languages and reads a bunch more. (And yes, I've seen her use that knowledge.) The proof is in the pudding.
>>23872737why aren't you?
>>23872745Probably lack of discipline. I shouldn't even be Internetting in English right now, I established Monday and Friday as no English on the Internet days to force myself to practice other languages, but I'm weak.
>>23872751>the proof is in the pudding>why no, I can't Latin or Greekthanks for your input
>>23872761She can. I can Classical Chinese more than I can Latin, personally. (I wrote my mum a jueju for her birthday, which I believe I shared here in the past.)
>>23872766I highly doubt she's never studied any grammar at all. Or she's bullshitting and vastly overestimating her ability.
>>23872971She has, and as I said I have seen her in action. (English isn't her native language either, though she was exposed to it from a young age.) And she's in academia, so if she were bullshitting reading cuneiform her colleagues would notice.
>>23872978So she both studied grammar and read a lot then just tells people to skip the first part lol. She might be good at Latin but her advice on learning it is shit.
>>23872995She didn't say to skip grammar entirely. But she advises focusing on exposure first and foremost.
>>23872978At what level can she understand those languages?Can she just get by reading Latin or can she write well? Likewise with the other languages
>>23873415I know her to have some conversational fluency in Irish (her native language), English, French, German, Arabic, and Japanese. She at least reads Sumerian and Akkadian, Latin, I think Ancient Greek, and I forget what else. I'm not sure to what extent she actively writes Latin or Greek. I suppose I could go ask her, but she's not always the most active online; she is in academia.
Well, I'm off on my quest to used bookstores for octs/teubners. Anon you better not have been bullshitting me about decent prices.
Are the Zondervan biblical greek/hebrew textbooks series any good?
made this thread >>23875583 then realized this thread exists.i suck; wanna get better so dumping here.>Arma virumque canō, i sing: arms and the man (Aeneas),>Trōiae quī prīmus ab ōrīs>Ītaliam, fātō profugus, Lāvīniaque vēnit>lītora, who, first from the shores of troy, by exiled-fate, came to the Italia(n)(peninsula) and the beaches of Lāvīnia,>multum ille et terrīs iactātus et altō>vī superum saevae memorem Iūnōnis ob īram;much, he, both by land, was thrown, and by deep (the sea), by the force of those high ones [superum=n./<m.> pl. gen.] (gods), all because of savage Juno's recalling (unforgetting?) ire;>multa quoque et bellō passus, dum conderet urbem, many things--what's more--also were undergone through war, until [dum+subjunctive=until] he fashioned a city,[et=adverb here?; if not --> "AND many things--what's more--were..."]>inferretque deōs Latiō, genus unde Latīnum,>Albānīque patrēs, atque altae moenia Rōmae. and until he placed the gods to Latium, whence [unde] (came) the Latin race, and the Alba Longa fathers, and also the high walls of Rome.
>>23875625>Mūsa, mihī causās memorā, quō nūmine laesō,Muse/Song, bring to mind <to me> the reasons--by what thwarted divine-will, >quidve dolēns,or what lamenting,>rēgīna deum tot volvere cāsūs>īnsīgnem pietāte virum,that roll the queen of gods [deum=poetic plural] so many disastersonto the famous-man for piety,>tot adīre labōrēs>impulerit.(that) she should impel (him) to undertake so many labors./(questionmark)>Tantaene animīs caelestibus īrae? [-ne=question] With/By celestial passions, are there such great ires?
>>23875651>Urbs antīqua fuit, Tyriī tenuēre colōnī,There was an old city, (which) the Tyrii colonists occupied,>Karthāgō, Ītaliam contrā Tiberīnaque longē>ōstia,Carthage, (against) Italy, against the Tiber and [-que --> and] a long way off [longē=adverb] from the (--its--) river-mouths,>dīves opum studiīsque asperrima bellī,a fertile(-land) of riches and harshest with the desires for war, [asperrima (f. sing.) --> Karthāgō (f. sing.) (also urbs (f. sing.))]>quam Iūnō fertur terrīs magis omnibus ūnam>posthabitā coluisse Samō;(a land) which [-->quam; still Karthāgō/urbs] Juno--it is said [fertur=passive; 'is relayed']--cultivated [coluisse=perfect active infinitive; triggered by indirect speech of fertur(?)] (as) one [ūnam-->quam] better than all lands, with Samo neglected; [ablative absolute --> "with [noun] [participle]'d]>hīc illius arma,>hīc currus fuit;these arms/military-actions of hers--this (her) chariot was;>hōc rēgnum dea gentibus esse,>sī quā Fāta sinant,>iam tum tenditque fovetque.that this be its-kind's(--kingdoms'--)kingdom,supposing as(?) fates (may) permit [subjunctive],now [iam] the goddess endeavors and encourages.[what a mess; reads better to flip and say:"the goddess now endeavors&encourages--'fate permitting'--THAT this be its-kind's kingom"with the indirect speech coming last (also "its-kind's" meaning "kingdoms' kingdom" in my mind)]
>>23875672>Prōgeniem sed enim Trōiānō ā sanguine dūcī>audierat,But--truly--she [still Juno] had heard THAT a clan ("meansed") from Troyish blood was leading [ducī; imperfect(?)],>Tyriās olim quae verteret arcēs;who may at one time overturn the Tyrian fortresses;>hinc populum lātē regem bellōque superbum>ventūrum excidiō Libyae:hence, (she heard*:) a haughty king-people about to come, broadly, with war and for North African demolition:[*populum/regem=accusative because of progeniem's indirect speech?]>sīc volvere Parcās.thus, (this) the Parca-people (Fates) roll.
>>23875692>Id metuēns, veterisque memor Sāturnia bellī,fearing it, and Saturn's daughter <(also)> remembering the old war,[memor+genitive=remembering]>prīma quod ad Trōiam prō cārīs gesserat Argīs—the early/first (one (war)) which she had carried [pluperfect] to Troy for the cared-for Argos-->necdum etiam causae īrārum saevīque dolōrēs>exciderant animō: and not but yet [necdum etiam] the causes of ires and furies had escaped the sufferings by (her) spirit:ORand the origins of the pains and the angers have not yet but slipped sufferings from (her) thought:[in both, i'm interpreting dolōrēs as a DO]>manet altā mente repostum>iūdicium Paridis sprētaeque iniūria fōrmae,the injury to (her) beauty remains deep(/high) in (her) mind--the past-put preference of Paris and of having been rejected [spretae], :((the "put-back-in-the-mind" desire of Paris?)>et genus invīsum, et raptī Ganymēdis honōrēs.and(/as well as) the odious race, and the honors of the rape of Ganymede.'til tomorrow
>>23875699Don't shit up this thread with your daily diary. If you insist on posting your (boring) translation put it all in one post, not 5. Everyone here has access to the Aeneid, no one needs to see screenshots and transcriptions. "Book 1 Lines 1-28' is enough.For an example of how you should be posting, see >>23869972Concise, clear, to the point. No unnecessary transcriptions, no spreading out over a half dozen posts no word-for-word translation. He asks about a distinct issue he has had, provides the relevant text, posts his attempted translation and asks for specific assistance. You, on the other hand, spray verbal diarrhea and splatter the thread with it. Guessing by going through Wiktionary is dumb. For just one example, dolores in line 25 is not DO but subject. I will be providing no other advice because your posting style is horrid as is your arrogance. Put on a trip so you can be filtered.
>>23875963hic anglus recte dixit. nunc aliter videtur mihi ac prius: non omnis anglus fasciculus est
>>23875699Get the Pharr Aeneid and stop with this pls.
hodie ego legi capitulum sextum de libro familia romana quae est scripta ab Oebergo. In hoc capitulo apprenderes de multas res. Primum via est vel longa vel brevis. Via quoque potest esse vel lata vel angusta. In viis sunt homines qui ambulant cum servis. Etiam fures adsunt in viis. Idcirco necesse est habere in manu gladium. Una nocte ego ipse vidi tres fures vescantes equis cuiusdam mercatoris. Cave ne perdeas vitam.
>>23856022In the spirit of Erasmus, does anyone else notice Classical Arabic transliterations/borrowings of Greek use ق(qaf) instead of ک(kaf) in place of kappa? Like in فارقليط(Paraclete) or the Qur'anic مقالد from Greek kleidaWas the Greek kappa more similar to ق than to ک? The same is true for using ط instead of ت for the Greek tau
>>23876134Fascinating question. Unfortunately, you'll find no answer here, where not even dilettante dabblers claim to know anything about Arabic.
>>23876056Ex multis lectoribus millibus illius libri, sunt forte pauci qui tam clare vel faciliter quam te scribat. Sed his verbis dico magis de facilititate libri quam peritia tuo.
>>23876134I mean considering the distance in time it should rather say more about the origin of the specific pronunciation system that got those terms into Arabic rather than the original value of kappa in Greek
A toast, gentlemen, to my having finished De Bello Gallico.
>>23877334ad astra
>>23877334Congratz anon. I've just reached book III myself. Farewell and godspeed.
By all these (aches) additionally agitated, (Juno) was aberrating the tossed Trojans (throughout) the whole aquasphere, (the(se) Trojans) (were) the last-scraps of the Greek(-warriors) and of archfiendish Achilles, (and) (Juno was keeping them) far from Latio, and through many years they were drifting, driven by destinies in a circle all about the seas.Of so massive a muddle was constructed the Roman race!Barely out of sight of Sicily's soil, the ecstatic (Trojans) were presenting sails into sea, and lapsing the simmerings of saltwater with (their) (ship-bow-)bronze,when Juno, perpetually perserving (her) pain beneath (her) pump,(pondered) this with herself:(C-c-)conquered? Me? To cease (am) I from (my) half-cocked accomplishment? To not able to away the Trojan throne from Italy? (Ahhh!)(Oh, wow.) Definitely, I am denied it by the destinies.Was not it possible for Pallas to flame-purge the fleet of Argives and flood them in the fluid,(all) due to an "ouchie" and angers of one Ajax son of Oilei?She, herself, launched the lustery lightning of Juppiter from the clouds,and ravaged the(ir) rafts and gouged the(ir) glassy-waters with winds,she plucked him (up) with a hurricne and binded him (down), (death-bound) (and) pyre-respiring, to a rapier-rock.But I, I who advance into astrals' queen(ly apex), and (who is) Juppiter's (Jove-)sister and conjugal, (I am) (caught) with ONE (fucking) folk (whom) I've carried carnages (at) for countless calendars!In addition, shall anyone adore the astral-assignment of Juno, or shall (anyone) supplementing (still) stack distinctions to (her) shrines?>>23875963your post and everyone else's mortified me.i hope i'm doing better; i'm used to less serious and faster-paced boards, where those social-suicides i posted would have already been pruned :(i'm still gonna include the screenshots though, just for convenience's sake.>asks for specific assistance.i guess i'm asking now if this is any better?>>23875983>Get the Pharr Aeneidi used that, thanks.>and stop with this pls.just filter me
>>23877806I don't see the point of reading a classic if you're essentially feeding it to your manual wiktionary algorithm to spit out bad english by the end. Practice latin like a normal person and read latin poetry for pleasure at a leisurely pace. This is not latin.
>>23877816Having made this post I instantly regret the tone. I only meant it well. As someone who's gotten to C1 in two foreign languages, I can tell you with some confidence that the only translation that helps you get better at a language is first language->target language, and not target language->first language. The latter only rewards recognition, which is the easiest and least operative part of language acquisition. It's when you have to craft target language sentences that your brain muscles are hypertrophied and forced to use the language grammatically, instead of spitting out fractured atoms of meaning to then string back up using the glue that is the english language.
>>23875625>>23875651>>23875672>>23875692>>23875699Behold, grammar translation in practice
Started on De Senectute since I'm a boomer (20). I love all the rants Cato goes on about laws, wars and political figures from back in his day. Very accurate portrayal of oldheads.
>>23856022Anybody got pic related and is willing to share?
>>23876134To my understanding, Arabic and Syriac have often used emphatics to transcribe non-emphatic consonants in foreign words not so much because it reflects the consonant value more closely but because it affects the realization of adjacent vowels such that the result may be closer in that respect.
>>23878731Another relevant fact would that Ottoman Turkish used Arabic emphatic consonants to affect the value of adjacent vowels, since Turkish had more distinct vowel qualities than Arabic and often borrowed what an Arab would have called merely different realizations of the same vowel as different vowels depending on the adjacent consonants (e.g. kalp from قلب vs. kelp from كلب), so Turkish scribes would take advantage of this in native Turkish words, e.g. ـمق for -mak vs. ـمك for -mek. Ottoman Turkish orthography was about as much of a Rube Goldberg machine as English's, but they did make it work.
>>23877806stupid faggot
>>23877334and I'm not even halfway there
>>23878542You have dozens of real Greek books to read, why this?
>>23878542haven't been able to find it on any of the usual, ehm, channels
>>23879354Īnsultāvistī eum/eam/id tam ut tergum verterit nōbīs. >>23880728
>>23878542nope but the audiobook is free on polis' site. you'll like it if you're a fan of those old sam hyde earrape videos.
>>23881129He deserves to be bullied, you should do so as well
>>23878076>boomer (20)nigga pleaseIf you take care of yourself your best years are far ahead of you
BUMP
>>23878076I think I'll give this one a read too after I'm done with the current ramblings of Socrates, seems a relatively short-ish read.
dumb question: why does puer end in "er" instead of the masculine singular "us", but the plural uses masculine plural "i" pueri
>>23885174>From Proto-Italic *puweros
>>23885180>>23885174From Palmer's Latin LanguageWon't format correctly by copy pasting so have a screenshotGreat book, whole page is here, relevant portion in red brackets
Any Classical Chinese enjoyers? It was the language in which most East Asian history was written and is very kino indeed
>>23885201Here we know it as the language of troons, right up there with Esperanto
How learning a classical language would benefit me?Also is it easy or hard to do so?
>>23885321YesIndeed
>>23885321Depends on you
This general is dying and I'm tired of bumping itRIP
>we live in a nice safe fertile land in a highly defensible position between two rivers and some mountains>better burn down our homes raze our fields and leaveWhat the fuck were they thinking? The ENTIRE population was on board with this?
I’m reading De Vulgari Eloquentia and Dante keeps saying “licet”, seeming to mean “although”. Is this from a late Latin shift in meaning or does it correspond to some Italian word? I’ve noticed he often uses SVO word order so I wouldn’t be surprised if he was influenced by other features of Italian.
>>23887271mmh, your question actually made me double check because it sounds natural in my head but apparently, albeit I think the classical usage of licet can come close to it, adverbial "licet" as you have in mind is supposedly post classical
>>23883319Vel dicessem, ille profecto jocat
>>23886736Quam ob rem tristior Africanis orphanis sum. Nunc videtur r/latin esse veniendum..
>>23886736I will if anything just to spite the mongrel ruining it
day 2194 of studying Latin >I still suck shit at LatinI got a stamp made so I don't have to write this manually each time since every entry is the same (except the first entry which is "o boy I'm going to study Latin")
>>23887456Define suck
>>23887463>Define suckIllud'st Abbās Sugerius tibi.
Is anyone aware of a list of all texts in Gothic? I want to see where a few words are used in every instance that they show up. With better attested languages like Greek this would probably be impossible, but surely there's a list somewhere out there of everything in Gothic.
>>23885201Yes, there are a few here. Don't know exactly how many, obviously, because anonymity.
>>23887801http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/gotica/ ?
>>23885321>how will it benefit meIt will let you read literature and history and poetry written in classical languages, and that’s about it>how hard is itNot hard at all if you have discipline and triple digit IQ
>latin word for faggot is cinaedus>"faggoty" would be cinaedalis>"faggotry" would be cinaedalitas>if this word was created and survived into english, it would be spelled "cinedality">current pope talks incessantly about "synodality," which is pronounced the samecatholicbros...
>sit down to study Latin>get sidetracked with phoneticsSo on that note, how many of you pronounce nasals?
>>23888636You are distracting yourself with details inconsequential at this point in time to avoid actually learning. Recognize the pattern and change.
>>23888636if you ever plan on reading poetry, getting used to the nasals is more important than other phonetic rules aside from vowel length, since it gets elided often and thus it's relevant to rhythm
>>23889261>nasals are super important>because they get elided
>>23889925yes, if you get used to pronouncing them with clear final -m instead of nasalizing the vowel those elisions in front of vowels one constantly meets in poetry come unnatural and make no sense
>>23889955>m+vowel=elidedwow tough, good thing I focused on nasalization before Chapter 2!
>>23885274Here i come with the ultimate language
bumo
>>23886780they were always at war with germanics thoughbeit, meaning they both weren't technically safe but also were warlike by nature
Thread’s dead. RIP
>>23893345/int/'s /lang/ has been through worse periods, problem is, people seem to think the "shape" of the thread is sort of fixed and isn't a function of them choosing to make it better or worsethe obsessed amerimutt halfbreed can be ignored
>>23890010These mostly make sense as glosses individually (though a few are awkward choices of word) but not in the context of the sentence.
>>23893624>he cares about the contextan apple is always an apple
>>23893359Dixi me te irrumaturum si te iterum hic ostenderis...nunc tempus ad os aperiendum, spice.
>>23877334Now to read it again for the plot.
Is there a language composed entirely or at least overwhelmingly of pictograms and ideograms?
How do you pronounce pañca-skandha and saññā? According to chatgpt is puny-cha skahn-dhuh and sun-khah-rah
>>23895359>jeetspeak
bump
yes, quite dead
Quoniam paene pagina decem est (iterum), ac faciendo nihil est, melioravitne ille? >>23896290
>>23896394cum ESL sim verum ut dicam difficiliora censeo intellectu quae pessime anglice scripsit quam latine a Vergilio scripta; illic videtur nihilominus satis intellegere sensum versuum etsi aegre
>>23896479Non enim scribit Anglice, si „scribere” significat componere aliquod aliis intellegendum, sed solum transfert verborum definitiones ab lexico in postum ejus.
>Legens editionem veterem (In Usum Delphini) Metamorphoseon>Ovidius scripsit “Nec circumfuso pendebat in aere tellus / Ponderibus librata suis..”>Interpretator modo dixit “Librata: rem istam perspicue explicant Cartesiani, quorum consulenda philosophia” >Non offert quondam locum, nec quidem auctorem Gratias maximas ago tibi! Profecto omnes quam perfecte philisophiam Cartesianorum scimus tam tu ipse
>>23896716censeo fortasse illunc voluisse Cartesianorum doctrinam de absentia vacui commemorare
Vinus mihi in cerebrum abiit
I just consumed an enormous amount of Latin and Greek written in proper English vocabulary and grammar but modern syntax and I can safely say that 80-90% of the difficulty of learning Latin/Greek lies in the conceptual and syntactical complexity of ancient prose, not in the actual language. It's just that what should be a smooth curve of input leading to greater comprehension is like a steep but smooth curve followed by a 90 degree solid wall, followed by an ascent of staggered plateaus and more 90 degree walls. The satisfying moment of being able to read 70-80% of real intermediate texts in your target language doesn't exist, you instead go from eating mushy baby foods to getting your mouth fucked by a ten foot tall diamondonium golem and ordered to chew and swallow his gravel cum with granite chunks as big as your fist. You can bridge the gap somewhat by reading practice texts but this takes forever and tends to reinforce the feeling that you're "not ready" to get rock fucked and you just need another six months of sucking on the Gerber teat
>>23898115proper Latin and Greek vocabulary and grammar* but modern English-like syntax I am trying to think of some kind of middle ground that combines the best of all learning methods for students. At the very least, simply telling students that ancient texts are uniquely difficult seems to take the load off their minds that they are frauds or failures. I find comparisons helpful, telling them that it's like going from English 101 to Shakespeare seems to make a light go off in their heads
>>23898116nice blognow do poetry
>>23898122In my experience students either love doing poetry or hate it. I think it's because some see it right away as a puzzle, whereas prose seems like "if I were smart, this wouldn't be a puzzle, but I'm stupid, so it's a puzzle." A poem presents itself right away as a small, condensed knot you need to spend a while unraveling. It's like it shifts their mind into being okay with translation-as-unraveling, and not as a shameful thing and a sign that they are failing. However for those who don't like puzzles at all, or who don't like poetry at all, or both, it's a total non-starter. Their only goal and only metric of success is "can I read long streams of prose well, so that I can do what I want with this language: extract information from texts in the original." Giving them a poem is like giving them a chore, it has the opposite effect in that it feels like an "exercise," it feels pointless and factitious. These tend to be the philosophy and history oriented chads, Greek is an information repository for them, even the literature is to be read not for slow enjoyment but to be "processed" for historical or philosophical knowledge. Even giving these kids literature is a bad idea. The best texts for them are things like Cicero, Xenophon, Plato.
>>23898132My bad, I need to proofread before posting. Caesar, Xenophon, Plato. But Cicero is good too, although I think his late philosophical texts would be a better choice than his rhetorical ones. The infochads hate the rhetorical ones.
>>23898115Yet another cope post saying to do anything but jump into the original writings of actual authors
>>23898298You should read posts before replying to them.
>>23898304I only read the first and last sentences in mucho texto posts and reply based on vibes most of the time tbhdesu
Why is Attic Greek so fucking hard?
>>23898304welcome to /clg/, you have to get used to 1-2 monkeys pestering this thread for months whose reply style is one or two variations of le epic definitely not stale adversative poster stereotype
>>23898291num propria sit, dubito, sed fortasse interpretator ille in animo habebat eorum propriam doctrinam, exempli gratia recusationem hylomorphismi et opinionem materiam esse semetipsam essentiam ubique diffusam et non passivam sicut Aristotelis sed ipsam auctricem: fortasse quod Ovidius scripsit "librata «ponderibus suis»nescio vero ipse quidnam voluit dicere
>>23898360Recte prius dixisti, mea quidem sententia, sed stulte tuum postum legi quasi dicentem Cartesium dixisse naturam horrere vacuam, - i.e. “de absentia vacui” significare id quod Cartesius dixit accidet sine vacua - nam oblitus sum Cartesium dixisse naturam non modo non horrere vacuam, sed etiam vacuam non omnino esse.
is there anything like LLPSI but for greek?
>>23898693Athenaze was the closest but now there's Logos: Lingua Graeca which apparently is even closer in style to LLPSI, haven't tried it myself as I used Athenaze
>>23898693Don’t bother. Get Pharr’s Homeric Greek
>>23898711Athenaze Italian version*Fixed that for you.
>>23898711>>23898832>>23898835What is the book used in the good universities (Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, etc) these days? I think it was posted here a few threads ago.
>>23898838>what textboook do ppl who get latinmogged by discord zoomers use
>>23898838Doesn’t matter. Use Pharr
>>23898838Who cares what they use. Most ivy league universities don't even require their students to learn latin/greek for a classics degree anymore. Check out Mastronarde or JACT's Reading Greek if you want to start with Attic Greek, or Pharr if you want to start with Homeric Greek.
>>23899257>Attic, HomericAre they that different? I thought learning one gives you access to the other plus Koiné.
>>23899257Good post with good advice, which means it will be ignored
>>23899302Declension endings, verb forms, and spelling are slightly different, among other things. Once you've learned one it doesn't take too much longer to learn the other, but it does take a bit of studying. Most people start with Attic and move to Homeric.
hodie ego legi capitulum octavum in quo Medus cum Lydia et Iulius cum Aemilia eunt ad tabernas quae sunt in urbe Roma. eunt ad tabernas ut emant gemmas mulieribus suis. nam gemmis acceptis mulieres subito aperiunt femora sua. Albinus est tabernarius quia habet tabernam in qua vendit gemmas raptas a peregrinationibus quos heri necavit cum sociis suis.
>>23898115this is the most accurate description of the latin learning experience I've seen in my life.
>>23899576Sure, if you're a retard with retard thoughts>the conceptual and syntactical complexity of ancient prose, not in the actual languageThis is so damn stupid I thought he was trolling at first. What does it even mean? An English speaker recognizes English word order easier? Ever stop to consider that a Roman would be mildly perplexed at Latin in English word order? How about that he would be absolutely disgusted? Think about that last question and why before replying.Go read Cicero and Quintilian. In their intended word order, not what is convenient for you.
>>23899599hey, fucking idiot, I read Cicero for fun. I'm talking about syntax being a bigger stumbling block in my learning days than the semantics or declensions of words themselves, which were pretty easy. Now suck my cock, faggot.
>>23899601>How about that he would be absolutely disgusted? Think about that last question and why before replying.I doubt you read Cicero considering you can barely understand English
>>23900064Consider that I didn't think the last part of your post worthy of reply.
>>23900110Odd, since Cicero wrote several books on that very topic, rhetoric. Maybe you didn't get to them yet, or maybe they aren't available in English word order so you find them too difficult.The "conceptual and syntactical complexity" you whinge about are just as much a part of Latin as its morphology. To a Roman it would not seem complex at all - it would be normal. Rearranging sentences into English word order would be an affront to his sensibilities and most likely pride. It would be similar to hearing a nigger read Shakespeare in ebonics. A thorough reading of Cicero's rhetorical works, Quintilian and the Rhetorica ad Herennium will make this abundantly clear. It will also solve most issues of 'solid walls' and 'plateaus'. As usual the solution is Read More Latin - simple advice, yet the bane of this general.Why you would complain about and avoid reading as the Romans themselves did is beyond me. Why you would want anyone else to do so is as well. Then again you seem to think saying 'fuck' and 'cum' and 'chad' and 'suck' in reference to classical languages is clever, so maybe it isn't all that surprising after all.
>>23899556>Nomine Albinus, ergo Albanus est>Gemmas quas vendit rapuit Hoc postvm probatvm est
>>23899601Syntax is the easiest part of Latin lmfaoYou’re just retarded
VGH, pronuntiatio restituta...tam pulchra...tam jucunda auribus meis...quam porcus
>>23900209Since you seem to be driven more by testosterone than by literacy, let me make a few points clear for you. I did not, as you assert, 'avoid reading as the Romans did'. How else, other than having read a great deal, do you assume I'd begun reading Cicero in the first place? Secondly, you seem unable to make the distinction between multiple persons online; not once did I say I prefer Latin in the 'English word order', a point upon which you seem much fixated. Again and again I need to point out to you that people can reply to, and emphasize, specific elements of posts with which they are engaging. You are battling apparition, and I am forced with annoyance to put up with it. Seek help. If that doesn't help, I suggest you neck it, faggot.
>>23900531List your favourite poems in the language.>>23900621apparitions*
>>23899601Describe your journey anon, maybe it will help others. If you hit the infinite expanse of intermediate plateaux and overcame it your experience is invaluable. I was looking at Reddit Latin discussion recently (it came up on google I swear I don't go there) and noticed that they're all obsessed with infinite induction and reading graded readers for literally years. I found this recently https://latinitium.com/is-reading-latin-impossible/
>>23900634>journeyjust read moreThat's all there is to itRead Latin instead of plebbit and blogs about Latin Instead of replying, go read
>>23900621>you seem to be driven more by testosterone>suck my cock, faggotkek
>>23900640I am already past the milestone myself like you but I am saying for others, "just read" can be discouraging since it's so all or nothing. There has to be some wisdom or self-reflection you gained along the way that you could share. Even if it's just something that can act as signposts at the halfway or quarterway points along the journey through the intermediate plateau, signs that progress is being made or revelations about what you're never going to feel natural at doing (thus you should stop feeling bad about not acquiring it), I find this helps learners a lot.
>>23900634That other guy who replied to you wasn't me btw. Anyway, I did chronicle my entire journey many /clg/s ago and I'm down with the flu rn. But essentially, after I did LLPSI, I thought I'd be able to conquer the world but, like that first guy said, I smashed into a brick wall at terminal velocity. It felt like shit. I'm pretty annoyed cuz some cancerous idiots here will come at me for even admitting that. That was multiple years ago, though. A few months after that point, I'd met (fell in love with) a girl in my college who also 'knew' Latin. She recommended the Cambridge Latin books to me and I finished those for the sake of comprehensive input, since classical latin was still pretty challenging to me. After that, stumbling upon an excel sheet which contained a lot of latin readers written in the 1910s, I decided to read through a couple of them based on my level. After having finished two, when I moved onto the next one, I realized that it was too easy for me, and that I'd rather challenge myself in earnest now. So I picked up Caesar. The Allen and Greenbough edition (available on anna's archive I think) had useful grammatical endnotes. I struggled greatly in the beginning, but overall I felt myself improving at a glacial pace. After that I read Orberg's curation called Sermones Romani, and then, many years having passed by, I decided to let myself be nudged along 'real' classical latin by going through vol 2 of LLPSI, which was excruciatingly difficult. But still, doing one chapter every few days, and redoing every passage that had been a hurdle, I was able to train my Latin muscles enough to read most of it without too much difficulty. Since then, I've read Seneca, a great deal of Cicero, Livy, and a few Christian texts for curiosity's sake. Rn I'm reading Petrarch's epistolae for their comfy value. I've not read the Aeneid or too much poetry though. I've not had the time to dedicate to them yet.
If y’all niggas gon have the same crusty Jiminy Cricket ahh arguments about Latin learning methodology erry day could y’all at least do it IN Latin?
>>23900721I would have but you type like a mixed race person so no.
>>23900721>ahh?
>>23900721Everytime I made a Latin post in the past it has been ignored. I agree though, I think that should be no reason to pollute the /clg/ with English. The Greekchads already show the Latincels their place regularly.
>>23900721isti fasciculi non possunt scribere latine
>>23900744Certe possum, eram tamen tam stultus ut, contra Anglicam scribens, non cognosci me Anglice scriberem, kek.
>>23900680Latin is weak compared to Greek, there’s nothing really worthwhile in it. Nothing like Plato, Aristotle, Homer, The New Testament, etc.
>>23900772Si tibi videtur in corpore librorum linguae Latinae nihil utilior sit quam lingua Graece, idem qui ego quoque sentio, necesse est tibi, prior quam ego verbis tuis accedam et illam linguam discam, demonstrare peritia tua in utroque linguis.
>>23900826I don’t speak your fucking language.
>>23900876Say it in Greek, then.
Can anyone please let me take a look at your diary in Latin or AG? I can read but I really have no idea about how to write my diary in Latin.
>>23900983Try practicing using a few composition books. If you've read enough in the language you have the words in you; you just need composition practice to get them out of you.
>>23900731It’s 2024 and this nigga don’t know about niglarp jfl>>23900734Ass
>>23900772>The New TestamentYou wouldn’t even know what it is were it not for Aquinas and Augustine
>>23900721foret sane iucundum si saltem Plautinatim de methodis latinam discendi verba comminus proicerentur inter scortilla huiusce fori; iamiam id videtur oppido fieri ad omnes taedendos anglice
>>23900655>discouraging>wisdom or self-reflection>feel natural>feeling badIt's a dead language, not some life-altering epiphanyReadMoreLatin
>>23900680>bro just read and reread 5 readers and a grammar book over the course of many years>no I can't read the Aeneid
>>23900655The key for that is, you guessed it, also reading. After reading something difficult, go back and re-read something easier that you've already read. You'll be amazed at how easy it is compared to the first time you struggled through it.
>>23901979The question is how to make this advice palatable and intuitive for learners to whom it seems hollow or who feel like they have been "keeping reading" for a long time See the difference between a post like yours and >>23900680
>>23902030The post where he blathers about inconsequential details while describing how he reads and rereads readers? His post is 'read more'. What else did you get out of it?There is no shortcut. Read more. If that isn't 'palatable' maybe Latin isn't for you.
>>23902045>rereads readerswhat?
>>23894979Respond to me bots
>>23900744istis fasciculis*>>23900826peritiam tuam*>>23902012Scribe sententiam illam Latine.
>>23898115>I can safely say that 80-90% of the difficulty of learning Latin/Greek lies in the conceptual and syntactical complexity of ancient proseWould I face a similar problem if I was mainly interested in learning Latin to read modern texts (Descartes, Spinoza, Hobbes, More, etc.).
>>23902380Not nearly as much. It's like how people can read biblical latin easily but get filtered to death when, having built confidence by that, they try to approach, for instance, Cicero. Renaissance and Enlightenment Latin is greatly on the simpler side unless you've stumbled upon an author who prides himself rather in his rhetorical rather than his argumentative capabilities (more of a Renaissance thing).
>>23900997Thanks. I am currently reading Arnold's Latin composition book. The most challenging part for me is to express ideas idiomatically, instead of writing something that's clearly translated from English.
>>23902731good way to look up and learn idiomatic usages
>>23902165>>23900744istis fasciculis*volebam nominativum plurale non ablativum ni dativum plurale. numquam gustavi ranam. sapisne bonum ut gallinam?
οὐχὶ δὴ θαυμαστὸν ὅτι ἀεὶ οἱ Ῥωμανίσκοι οἷοί τ' εἰσὶ τὸ νῆμα διαπέρσαι σφετέρῃσιν ἀτασθαλίῃσι· τοὺς τὴν Σινικὴν μελετῶντας μάλα μακαρίζω ὅτι δύνανται ἴσως μόνοι περὶ τῆς σφῶν γλώσσης διαλέγεσθαι, οὐ μόνον φλυαρεῖν Βοιωτιστί(κατὰ τὸ /κλγ/ ἴσως ὀνομάζοιμεν ἄν Λατινιστί)
Sneed
Day 10,000 of trying to develop a method for guiding neophytes through the intermediate plateau and making progress in Latin autodidactism more tangible: I have been experimenting with LLMs and confirmed that the more advanced models can reliably insta-gloss any passage with basic definitions and morphology, and even idioms if desired. Early modern Latin is also easier, as above posters have noted, and lots of /lit/ demographic autodidact types are just as interested in early modern authors as they are in classical ones, sometimes more. I'm going to fiddle with this some more. Maybe I could make stock glossed/annotated early modern Latin quasi-"readers," getting AI to do all the grunt work with morphology and basic definitions while fixing any errors and covering niche idioms missed by the LLM myself. This could then be an alternative to the "just suffer through Roma Aeterna forever" approach, at least for a certain niche of autistic autodidacts who are motivated by "wow I'm doing it, I'm really reading (their favorite philosopher)!" Maybe I or someone smarter than me could even include some kind of signposting marginalia or even subtle color-grading to indicate to the learner/reader the difficulty of the passage. You could have a slightly different background color (or text type?) in a pdf for just the weird idiom for example. That way the user can see, at a glance in each page or paragraph, which parts he's "expected to know," which parts are "supposed to be" at his level or just above it, and which parts would be / would have been like a slap in the face if they weren't glossed. I am not really good enough at Latin pedagogy to do all this myself but I will keep plugging away at it and see if I can at least pave the way for others.
>>23903780More thoughts related to this: LLMs are almost ideal Latin tutors and I highly recommend shopping around for a text that you actually care about reading and checking its difficulty. This is my first time reading a lot of early modern Latin and there is a ton of variety in it. Some authors are "medievally" simple while others are almost pretentiously classicizing like it's mid 15th century Florence. I wonder if we could create a small library of bite-sized Latin texts from different eras, glossed and annotated with help from LLMs, graded by difficulty. Instead of the difficulty grades being "textbook to readers to Caesar to Cicero," there could then be an actual gradient of texts in terms of difficulty, and the learner could browse the catalog looking for something that interests him and plotting his own itinerary. Speaking of which, Itinerarium mentis in deum looks like a good one. I will create a flexible extensive reading curriculum for Latin if it's the last thing I do. Greek is going to be much harder, but I have some ideas for that too, since it's harder in the beginning and end but easy in the middle once you find your legs, whereas Latin is brutal in the middle but easy in the beginning and end. But even in Greek we could expand the extensive reading curriculum from Anabasis and a few boring 4th century speeches to a whole bunch of things, without the factitious, wading pool feel of a graded reader. The whole point is, again, to let the reader select his texts and to give him the satisfying feeling of knowing they're real texts.
>>23856022Could somebody provide an invite to the Classical Languages discord server?
>>23903888More on using LLMs for any people still stuck in the frustrating intermediate phase: Try picking a real text you actually want to read, while using your best judgement to guess how classicizing it is. If you go "hey I almost understood that!" on the first few real* sentences, you're on the right track. (* By "real" I mean: skip the preface, which is often more pretentious and ornate, and try reading a passage a few pages or paragraphs in.) Then put a small-ish paragraph into GPT4 and ask it to gloss the words for basic definition (without inflection) and morphology (in short form), and without trying to interpret the meaning of the words in the context of the passage. Tell it to "leave that to you." Then use the gloss to read the passage, and try your best, even if you suck and fuck up, to translate a decent chunk. Tell GPT4 not to sugarcoat, and just to say you're wrong when you're wrong, otherwise it will say "not bad!" or "pretty close, but!" Then, ask for explanations of anything you still don't understand. Then go back and reread the passage, translating it again, in your mind or in text, whichever you prefer. Do this for 30-60 minutes, or whatever works for you. When the session ends, reread the passages you were working with and see if you can still "see" the logic of all the stuff you learned "in" it. When you start your next session the next day, reread the passage again.At first you'll be doing like a paragraph per session, maybe more maybe less. But if you do this for a while, on a text you actually care about, you will finally get that CRITICAL (imho) feeling of actual progress. I may have actually found a use for LLMs that isn't a novelty at best. Maybe I'm wrong that they seem to be glossing the grammar/morphology way way better than they ever have in previous attempts at this, but I don't think so. Even if so, one could probably train a custom bot on Latin/Greek dictionaries and grammars easily. Maybe some database. I wonder if some genius could even perfect this method and integrate it with something like Perseus' Scaife.
AIfags kyselves
>>23903914nice findings, I too have been using more and more GPT4 for other stuff but nevertheless I'm quite impressed by how far it went even from a year ago, it's genuinely usefulI was thinking about using it to restart improving my German as well
>>23902450>Not nearly as much. It's like how people can read biblical latin easily but get filtered to death when, having built confidence by that, they try to approach, for instance, Cicero.I'll keep that in mind. I really have no interest in anything the Romans had to say. Has anyone ever made a guide on the best way to approach Latin for the purposes of reading modern texts?
>>23903914>dictionary? Reference grammar?>no thanks, I'll let GPT4 think for me
>>23904620Provided it's accurate, it's exactly the same function, just faster. It's not "thinking" to ctrl+c ctrl+v something into an online dictionary and have to sort through 2-3 shitty entries, or into Wiktionary and have to manually edit the first letter to a lowercase letter so it actually finds the entry, then click the main page for that word, then wait the extra second or two delay before it goes to "Latin" (and probably jumps around as it then loads other things on the page, so you have to re-find it). Perseus' Scaife viewer is great because you can just click morphology in normal mode. But you still need to do manual look-up, and not everybody even knows the best and most streamlined tools. Literally all this is doing is jumping a little bit ahead in terms of integration of these elements, cutting out the manual copying and pasting for example. The only downside would be if GPT fucks it up, which it doesn't seem so far to be doing. You are obsessed with unnecessary arbitrary masochistic elements of the process, and that is rich coming from me as I'm an elitist who is usually all for toughing it out and building character etc. I am actually in favor of hardcore old school methods, sink or swim, all that. I am just trying to find ways to get students to actually do their homework.
>>23904637Also I never said do it for grammar. I said exactly and explicitly the opposite. Are you the same worthless faggot retard who was saying "Just. Read." to posts earlier in the thread that were recommending "just reading," because you ironically can't read? I hope you get raped and electrocuted to death you fucking phoneposting bug.
>>23904637>online dictionary>Wiktionary>click>Scaife viewer>hardcore old school methodslolDo you spend any waking second not glued to a screen? And I'm the 'phoneposting bug' kek
>>23904678Only the hours I spend fucking your mother while you're at the cafe with your portable typewriter, fag.
stramentum irritum
>>23904726Why does it keep trying to change the subject? What's the point of programming AI to do that?
Off-topic maybe, but what are the sources for the myth of Sisyphus? I mean, where is it actually written down? Is it some poem, or what? Wikipedia just kind of brushes past that pointCheers
>>23905464I only remember him directly from the Odyssey, book 11, it's not much, just few lines with the main myth.
>>23905464the Italian wiki is more precise about itHomer's are just small bits, maybe pseudo-Apollodoros will have more about him
>>23905508>>23905540thanks fellas
>>23904534The rules are still the same, and you'll still get hit by the odd ciceronian sentence, so just learn latin like everyone does.
>>23904726Here’s your free tutor bro
>>23900680>I've not read the Aeneid You have no business in telling others how to learn Latin
I prefer Latin aesthetically but its authors can't even begin to compare to Greek
>>23906045Well you've no business telling me anything since you don't know how to read. I've read most of the hardest prose authors and, like I said, only haven't read the Aeneid cuz I want to save it for a leisurely reading when I can afford the time commitment, as I'd done in my childhood with paradise lost. In case you're the faggot that was replying to me earlier, my recommendation to you still stands: off yourself.
>>23893969Well just for instance, 知 is a verb here, but it's translated as a noun, and similarly with 怨. 子 on its own can indeed mean "child", but 君子 here is a compound word that has nothing to do with children.
>>23894979A language is not composed of writing. Spoken language is prior to writing, and writing is based on it. Unless you want something like Blissymbols.>>23895359Something like /ˈpɐɲ.t͡ɕɐs̪kɐn̪.d̪ʱɐ/ (unsure about stress) and /sɐɲːaː/. If you can't read IPA, the closest approximation would be something like "pun-chuh-skun-duh" and "sun-nyah" respectively. (The ñ is pronounced like a "ny" sound like in Spanish, but it's hard for an English speaker to say that at the end of a syllable.)
new>>23906575>>23906575
