Simeon ten Holt editionThis thread is for the discussion of music in the Western classical tradition.>How do I get into classical?This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:https://pastebin.com/NBEp2VFhPrevious thread: >>123940119
Actual previous thread: >>123957023
now playing, againstart of Prokofiev: Skaz o kammenom tsvetke (the Tale of the Stone Flower) , Op. 118https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zvHwU-YXd4&list=OLAK5uy_kG_fEu6r-UPt7APoLannv25A8PMXEf9lY&index=1https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kG_fEu6r-UPt7APoLannv25A8PMXEf9lY
>>123977031>simeon ten holtnever even heard of him until a few days ago. I've been listening to OP pic and picrel. good shit.
"Mozart is the incarnation of music."Joseph Haydn"The fact that most people do not understand and respect the very best things, such as Mozart's concertos, is what permits men like us to become famous."Johannes Brahms"I have always reckoned myself among the greatest admirers of Mozart, and shall do so till the day of my death."Ludwig van Beethoven"Mozart is sweet sunshine."Antonin Dvorak"Oh Mozart, immortal Mozart, how many, how infinitely many inspiring suggestions of a finer, better life you have left in our souls!"Franz Schubert"Does it not seem as if Mozart's works become fresher and fresher the oftener we hear them?"Robert Schumann"Mozart is the highest, the culminating point that beauty has attained in the sphere of music.""Mozart is the musical Christ."Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky"Give Mozart a fairy tale and he creates without effort an immortal masterpiece."Camille Saint-Saens"Mozart's music is particularly difficult to perform. His admirable clarity exacts absolute cleanness: the slightest mistake in it stands out like black on white. It is music in which all the notes must be heard."Gabriel Faure"Certain things in Mozart will and can never be excelled.""The most tremendous genius raised Mozart above all masters, in all centuries and in all the arts."Richard Wagner"The most perfect melodic shapes are found in Mozart; he has the lightness of touch which is the true objective. Listen to the remarkable expansion of a Mozart melody, to Cherubino's 'Voi che sapete', for instance. You think it is coming to an end, but it goes farther, even farther."Richard Strauss"I owe very, very much to Mozart; and if one studies, for instance, the way in which I write for string quartet, then one cannot deny that I have learned this directly from Mozart. And I am proud of it!"Arnold Schoenberg
Was Mahler a legitimate Catholic or not? It seems everyone has different answer on whether or not he was just pragmatically pretending to be or whether he was legitimately faithful in any capacity.
>>123977355https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fswMjpAWgQ
>>123977364yeah. there is no straight answer. obviously jews would prefer to think that his conversion was pragmatic while catholics would prefer to think that it was faithful. there are anecdotes of mahler and alma having arguments regarding catholicism with mahler being pro-catholic, but who knows how real they are?
>Stanchinsky had always shown great promise as a musician even at a young age, but was often viewed as “unstable” and a victim of his own nerves. This became very prominent when his father died in 1910, as Alexei became quite delusional and suffered from this state for many years.[2] After a brief hiatus from music, Stanchinsky returned to his roots by gathering folk tunes for a personal collection and eventually returned to the conservatory life-style by studying with his colleagues again. However, his life would never again be what it was. In October 1914, he was found dead next to a stream near Logachyovo after wandering the countryside. His death is still a mystery, as details were never found or revealed about his last days.>His death is still a mystery
>>123977309Y'know, it's not as compositionally interesting, but regardless I think I may prefer this to Romeo and Juliet and Cinderella.
Boulez on other composers:He accused Schoenberg, after his death, of the “most ostentatious and obsolete romanticism.” Webern was “too simple.” Berg suffered from “bad taste,” Ravel from “affectation.” Twelve-tone music in its extant form was overrun by “number-fanatics” who engaged in “frenetic arithmetic masturbation.” Boulez’s teacher, Olivier Messiaen, produced “brothel music.” John Cage, who was at one time an ally of Boulez, became a “performing monkey,” and Karlheinz Stockhausen, likewise, a “hippie.” The American minimalists displayed a “supermarket aesthetic,” the American serialists had a “cashier’s point of view.” Brahms was a “bore,” Tchaikovsky “abominable,” Verdi “stupid, stupid, stupid!” And so on."Well, Shostakovich plays with clichés most of the time, I find. It's like olive oil, when you have a second and even third pressing, and I think of Shostakovich as the second, or even third, pressing of Mahler."
>>123977665What did he say about his own music?
>>123977665If I were at a fancy, high culture party and someone insulted my art by saying it displayed a supermarket aesthetic and I had a cashier's point-of-view, I'd probably leave crying, even though I'm still not quite sure what the latter means but it's evocative.
>>123977355>The fact that most people do not understand and respect the very best things, such as Mozart's concertos, is what permits men like us to become famousWhat is there to "understand" in Mozart? It's never taken me more than couple of listens to understand most of his concertos
>>123977355“Overrated his music is usually quite dull- a technical genius but not a very good artist.”
>>123977961lol love it
let's finally try<----Gonna try the Kegel one next time.
tier 1: Mass in B minor, A German Requiem, Mahler's 8thtier 2: Missa Solemnis, St Matthew Passion, The Creation, Messiahtier 3: St John Passion, Berlioz's Requiem, Dvorak's Stabat Mater, Liszt's Christus, Bach's Christmas Oratorio, Verdi's Reqiuemtier 4: Mozart's Great Mass, Haydn's Nelson Mass, Haydn's The Seasons Bach's Magnificat, Mendelssohn's Elijah, Durufle's Requiem, Vivaldi's Gloriathereabouts. i put shorter choral works into a different category, eg Bach's cantatas or Brahms' orchestral choral works like Nanie
>>123977999big mistake>>123978214very stupid list, maybe if you stopped listening to boring recordings of the missa solemnis you wouldn’t find it so dull.
>>123978262Yeah I remember you dislike the Jochum one, one of the very first works I asked about recording recommendations here. The Szell one is fantastic but the audio quality is just a tad lacking to be one I revisit often. You have any thoughts on Kegel's? I generally try to stay away from recordings from choral guru conductors these days, but still gonna give it a shot.And hey I placed it in tier 2! I still love it. What do you think about the rest of the list, especially about having Mahler 8 in tier 1?
>>123978302kegel is an excellent choral conductor, but what is the point when his entire performance drags the shit out of every single movement? what a chore to listen to. >What do you think about the rest of the listobviously made by someone with no comprehension of the concept of text setting and very little care for form in program music.
>>123978341kek well I just go by my ears and heart. To each their own. And yeah this Jochum Missa Solemnis isn't great -- as much as I love Jochum, I don't think I like any of his Beethoven, to be honest.
>>123978374>kek well I just go by my ears and heart.it would do you well to use your brain a little too. >as much as I love Jochum, I don't think I like any of his Beethoven, to be honest.that whole furtwanglerian school of subjectivist tempo draggers are such a bore in the viennese school. we probably have them to blame for the absolutely horrid tempi taken in beethoven’s music for most of the 20th century, and even today.
>>123978214I started to listen to Hayden’s The Creation- the overture was superb but when they started warbling about God creating light, I found it hard to take seriously
>>123978507I mean what did you think it was gonna be about, lol
Link some spotify playlist with all the works of a composer for me to get into, I've been listening to Arvo Part (https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0ZdvO74WPJpmyQvHGbla30?si=729cdf639ef6457e), I only knew Frates and Spiegel and didn't knew much about his other works, after listening to it I'm in love, really liked his style (not that I want similar composers, just that I enjoy listening to all random works of a composer because then I can find what I like instead of whats popular)
now playingstart of Verdi: Requiemhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8hbXF-x2CU&list=OLAK5uy_nFvKYW2Y6cSqZpm3wscUrXQ5EBRgt2FpQ&index=1https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nFvKYW2Y6cSqZpm3wscUrXQ5EBRgt2FpQ
>>123978556evangelion reference?
>>123978397Explain to the folks what the Furtwanglerian school of subjectivist tempo draggers is.
>>123978556good fucking god, what a travesty>>123978571great question tranime sister
>>123978581you’re so boring, you know that?
Every interaction between you two is the same.>I like this>i don't like this>Haha true but to each his own but hey it's actually kind of bad like you say
>>123978615I never said I liked it, I was trying it, when he's right he's right. I love Karajan's Missa Solemnis and German Requiem and sisteranon hates those, as a counterpoint as well.
>>123978609It’s just that their might be some folks who are not aware of what that is
>>123978615You forgot to include the follow up insult from the sister p
For my favorite Beethoven pno cto 4 I finally settled on Pollini/Vienna/Böhm
I don't like the Szell Missa Solemnis. Sounds like it was recorded by an iPhone.
Any more music like Rhapsody In Blue?
now playingstart of Bruckner: Symphony No. 3 in D Minor, WAB 103 "Wagner Symphony"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hldFlK9KZnI&list=OLAK5uy_lXOivsvgCh_hy6SPx-t2iZkKEOw5Jzk1s&index=1https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lXOivsvgCh_hy6SPx-t2iZkKEOw5Jzk1sCelibidache's approach actually works very, very well with this one. The melodies lend themselves well to the slower tempo, and the result is it doesn't sound dragged or stretched out as Celibidache's recordings often do, even his good ones; here it sounds just right. Give it a try.>>123979076Quality choice.>>123979084Well, IMO, the sound quality isn't so bad as to be unlistenable, and the interpretation is top-notch, but yes it's significant enough to where it detracts a bit from it for me so it doesn't quite crack my rotation of favorite recordings. With that said, for anyone who doesn't mind that kind of sound quality, it would be one of my first recommendations.
>>123979084i haven't ever heard missa solemnis before but as a general rule of thumb i try to stay away from those kinds of people
>>123978341What is text setting?
>>123979148Who? Szell? He's usually pretty good I just stay far away from terrible sounding recordings. Can't stand them
>>123979084then stick to modern HIPster recordings of it with clipped phrases and no vibrato. >>123979122utterly foul stuff, people like celibidache are the reason why bruckner has a reputation for being boring and dull. >>123979148what kinds of people, good conductors?
>>123979256Nah I'm fine with Klemperer.
>>123979148The Jewish people?
>>123979291Can't go wrong with that one.
>>123979120Copland piano concerto
>>123979249the art of portraying a text with appropriate music. for example, think of schubert’s lieder and how elements of the text are portrayed through musical motifs or imagery, like the horse galloping in erlkönig or the spinning wheel in gretchen am spinnrade. liturgical and sacred text is typically much less vivid and worldly and has a historical precedent of settings that are almost entirely divorced from the text, so text setting is not as big of a concern as with lieder, but still highly relevant. >>123979291klemperer’s production quality isn’t much better than szell’s, the organ is inaudible in both recordings and legge has to resort to studio trickery to get the soloists to be audible in certain sections, which is obviously not the case with szell.
>>123979392What? It sounds way better. The Szell has no bass and there's so much of a volume difference between my left and right ear in a lot of parts
>>123979465sounds like you’re listening to a bad mastering of it. i hope you’re not listening to the urania release.
>>123979475https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPlF17bC1M this one. Also way too much hiss, it's really bothersome
>>123979498there's really not any more hiss than klemperer dude, all recordings from that era have pretty similar amounts of tape hiss. and aside from the end of the benedictus this recording doesn't have any channel imbalances so i have no idea what you're talking about with regards to that.
>>123979523https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T58LUislMMoAre you sure your hearing is quite there? This has way less hiss.
>A. Go to the Opera>B. Watch an opera in video format>C. Listen to an opera in audio formatDoes C even makes sense? Its like listening to a theatre play not intended as an audio-only experience.
Is busoni his piano concerto some kinda joke, did he just make virtuosi slop and the most over the top concerto ever to make fun of other composers? I'm tempted to take a plane to hear it live, but i'm afraid i'll just start laughing during performance
>>123979541hemming and hawing over the amount of hiss a recording from the late 50s to early 70s has is a complete waste of time, they all have enough hiss to be distracting to someone who cares about it and irrelevant to someone who doesn't. if you don't want hiss, stick to digital recordings, of which there are no good versions of the missa solemnis. it's that simple.
Is there a way to get past issues of /classical/ magazines? There is nothing on shadow libraries.
>>123979604thank you hisster sister
>>123979577>Does C even makes senseYes, because with most operas the music is by far the most interesting part
>>123979619either it has hiss or it doesn't, and either that bothers you or you're fine with it. cherrypicking the exact amount of hiss a recording can have is for neurotic morons.
Decided to give Gielen's Mahler 7th a go last night after years of putting it off. What a thoroughly turgid affair.
>>123979662so true hisster sister
>>123979684that describes all of gielen's mahler pretty much
>>123979684Sounds perfect for Mehler's 7th symphony
Listening to Debussy's Preludes
>>123970411Not bad at all, the first few minutes in particular are excellent . Extraordinary picture for the video
>>123979577Of course it does, you don't lose any lore or relevant content without the visual spectacle
>>123979684Yeah I just don't understand why it's so acclaimed and beloved by a certain segment of other Mahler connoisseurs, it's so off-the-mark.>>123979256>utterly foul stuff, people like celibidache are the reason why bruckner has a reputation for being boring and dull. I know there's nothing I can say to change your mind or even make you give it a try, but I'm telling you, for the 3rd here it sounds like a completely natural performance, very suitable tempo and playing of the work.
>>123977382Nice, gonna give some more of Suitner's Mozart a listen, thanks.
>>123979465>>123979523Not to intrude on the discussion, but he's right. There's a pretty consistent channel imbalance throughout that recording, about 2 dB. It somewhat resolves itself towards the Agnus Dei. Fairly easy to fix yourself, though.
>>123979910That Dresden set is mighty fine
>>123979925Listening to the 35th right now and it's off to a great start!
Who's better for Bach's cantatas and larger choral works, Herreweghe or Suzuki?
Bach is annoyingMozart is predictableBeethoven is boringGive me Brahms, Schumann, Tchaikovsky and I'll he a happy man. Off with ya.
>>123979987Rotzsch.
Mozart is for babies
>>123979987i like koopman, herreweghe and suzuki in that order. koopman isn't as well recorded as the latter two, however. koopman and suzuki are more accessible for their box sets. also suzuki used to be koopman's student.
>>123980004Based.
>>123980026You don't like Richter or Rilling?
>>123980032i have his christmas oratio with fritz. it's alright.
Memes aside, what do you guys think of Dudamel?
>>123979896no piece of music sounds natural under celibidache, because no piece of music sounds natural with its melodic line distended until it loses all shape and form. >>123979924never noticed it aside from the end of the benedictus, where the channel balance noticeably drifts and then corrects itself. the rest of the recording sounds perfectly fine to me. >>123980004romantiturds never cease to embarrass themselves. >>123979987do HIPtards seriously?
>>123980103He makes Zarathustra sound dull as fuck, which is quite a feat
>>123980103awful awful conductor
>>123979716>>123979896Yeah the praise for it bewilders me, the whole thing just felt very cold and suffocating. So far my 7th of choice is still Abbado with the CSO, which is odd given how mediocre Abbado usually is.
>>123978556Am I the only one who thinks Verdi made one the weakest requiems? I don't get why it gets performed so much. Dvorak is my favorite.
>>123980179it’s basically an operatic cantata set to liturgical text, there is virtually no relation between it and the mass setting tradition up until that point.
>>123973831only the very biggest of Beethovenfags can be delusional enough to say "Beethoven was not a romantic" with no hint of sarcasm or shame
>>123980179There were really no great requiem masses after Morales, Victoria or Lassus
>>123980221Not again. Please.
>>123977960who said that
>romantiturds never cease to embarrass themselves.>do HIPtards seriously?
>>123979577C is ideal if only because most performances are directed by absolute retards and it is actually much better to just imagine it all yourself
>>123980111Still waiting on an explanation of what the furtwanglerian school of subjectivist tempo draggers is
>>123980021>Mozart is for babiesreal babies listen to goyslop like rachmaninoff or liszt
>>123980304Rachmaninoff and Liszt are for dangerous, big-guy pianists. Mozart is for babieshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NgaS50hFpc
Beethoven is the only one to single handedly bring music through TWO separate revolutions and bring the world into the romantic period. What was Bach hailed a genius for? Writing fugues... People say Beethoven didn't like writing fugues as if he was too shit to do it. No. Rather he didn't like having strict rules such as is the case with a fugue, because for Ludwig, art, emotion and expression came first. In fact, he wrote the most complex fugue in the Hammerklavier later in his life just because he fucking could... Whilst practically entirely deaf. In fact he was so deaf he couldn't hear when the performance of his 9th symphony had ended and the audience was going wild.
I know no one else cares about these music pairings but I do, it's fun listening to works in this manner, similar to a live performance with openers and closers and multiple works on the program, and I gotta say Berg's Lyric Suite is the perfect opener to Mahler's 7th.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRY-HxMbRbointohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaeDybKSkCwIf you got any ideas for a better suggestion, I'm all ears. I was reading about a performance Rattle gave of the 7th just now with the BPO and they opened with Boulez's Éclat, not a bad choice either.>To employ a culinary phrase, Boulez’s 8-minute Éclat might be termed an amuse-bouche, a starter that tickles the palate and prepares the taste-buds for more substantial fare to comehttps://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2016-11-25/article/45165?headline=Simon-Rattle-Conducts-B
>>123977436Mahler was a catholic, otherwise he would have written shit music. If you look into it, the only jews who can actually compose good music are those who convert to Christianity, while the others reject Logos and end up like Schoenberg
>>123980318more like big babies
>>123980318Rachmaninoff and Liszt are fucking shit
>>123980227I tried the Morales for 10m and then I skipped parts and it all sounds the same.
>>123980158>So far my 7th of choice is still Abbado with the CSONo longer my favorite anymore, but it's still on the shortlist and remains a top-tier choice for sure.
>>123980365Incorrect.
>>123980365The fucking shit my friend. Well Liszt is, I haven't read Rachman
>>123980365Anon has no SOVL, sad.
>>123979987koopman for the most of the cantatas
>>123980376Well that's just Wagner's opinion, Not like he's the leading authority on this
>>123980402>I haven't read RachmanThen listen to his 2nd and 3rd concertos at least, they're god-tier, bar none. Not even close.
>>123980323>What was Bach hailed a genius for? Writing fuguesalready more impressive than anything you mentioned Beethoven did
Palestrina sucked throbbing cock compared to the likes of Josquin, Ockeghem or Obrecht
>americans enter thread>general turns to shitEvery fucking time.
>>123980473Who's American, schizo?
>>123980325>The following night’s program by the Berlin Philharmonic featured works by the 20th century Viennese atonal innovators Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern, as well as the Symphony No. 2 in D Major by Brahms. To me this sounds like an odd pairing but it seems to be a rather common one, must be something to it I guess.
>>123980376You can un-jew yourself by converting. Christianity is not just jewish, it fully accepts greek philosophy by saying that Christ is the Word/Logos. Modern judaism was created by Yohahan ben Zakkai after the destruction of the Temple, it has little to do with the pre-christian judaism (which was true) and is based on the rejection of Logos, which means that jews behave irrationally and are natural revolutionaries.
>>123980333>>123980376does it feel good to be this schizophrenic
>>123980432The dude is still active at 80yo.
>>123980473take your pills
>>123980486>>123980518Thanks for proving my point antisemitic schizo's.
>baroquecircle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbnFbReXYT4circle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDMX-PZYEMQ&t=182s (3:02)circle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4bUCMV2oCE&t=26s (0:26)circle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8rYzpC-d44&t=80s (1:20)circle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzKZSCuGMeY&t=495s (8:15)circle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mflDcqVrZOI&t=377s (6:17)circle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmKPg_lamTc&t=59s (0:59)circle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_LgBZp7bnocircle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrHjsvJgLvg&t=171s (2:51)circle of meme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ6srEPZRcg&t=19s (0:19)
mahler wasaKEKand he wroteKEKmusicif you like mahler you re a KEKsimple as
>>123980526I am not one of the anons who responded to you, I am not american and I am not antisemitic. As I said, comverted jews, like Mahler and Mendelssohn, can compose good music, it is not a matter of race
>>123980489Incultured plebs know nothing about Patristics, they are confused by the origin of Christianity an ignore its spiritual end goal. But enough about that.
>>123980564Mahler? More like MEHler am I right?
Who's worse, Mendelssuck or MEHler
Sneaking in some non classical while no one is looking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMefxte5y8&ab_channel=ShenQiErHu
>>123980552Ancient Judaism isn't poison, and Wagner was just wrong in this case. And without Christianity you wouldn't have most of the classical music discussed in this thread, including Wagner's greatest work, Parsifal
>Love early music>The world music at my disposal, thanks internet>Still sad that I was born in a poor country in the New World, where early music ensambles are non existent.What do?
Mediocre composers tier list:Passable tier:Mendelssohn, Alkan, Gershwin, BerlinDoesn’t pass tier:Offenbach, Korngold, Joachim, KreislerGarbage tier:Copland, Moscheles, Rubinstein (any of them)Inhuman degenerate nonsense tier:Mahler, Bernstein, Glass, SchoenbergFeel free to add your own.
>>123980489The main problem with Jews has always been they're a minority with a strong identity in other countries
now playingstart of Brahms: Symphony No. 2 in D, Op. 73https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbyN9xClXaU&list=OLAK5uy_lspVyFvYUb9PZPNUBSgq22ZPjQIreZSCY&index=19https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lspVyFvYUb9PZPNUBSgq22ZPjQIreZSCY
>>123980632>Glass
>>123980632Post your favs, including works AND performers.
>>123980658>EH!?
Shostakovichhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXdH2CWNH_U&list=OLAK5uy_kiTaEimus2uI3DFtx5Sj69usbM8eEos5k
https://youtu.be/U03zmvDtHds?si=nhbjqTHyToB39hh5Just take a look at this thread, what has "He" done to us?
>>123980689People listen to the first 3 symphonies of Shostakovich?
People listen to Shostakovich at all?
>>123980613>Ancient Judaism isn't poison,It is alien. It is not European, it's pure poison to my culture.>Wagner was just wrong in this case.LOL just because you worship a jew on stick, one of the greatest minds of 19th century?? Go read a history book and get educated.>without Christianity you wouldn't have most of the classical musicOrigins of most classical instruments, such as Organ date before christcuckery, in Ancient Greece or elsewhere. Same for 12 tone system and more.Classical music would develop in exactly the same way, except we would have different composers and periods, for better or worse, no one can tell. >ParsifalWould sound the same musically, if we assume Wagner is born.
>>123980707unfortunately so.>>123980710thank you wignat wagnersister
>>123980668
>>123980707People listen to Shostakovich at all.
>>123980702Well, it was in Ormandy's Original Jacket Collection.
>>123980719stop posting your fap material and put your trip back on, pedophile kraut
>>123980668Perhaps you'd like to explain what the furtwanglerian school of subjectivist tempo draggers is?
>If I did not feel in my heart the actual love and light of the Christian faith of which you speak, my works as I give them in evidence . . . would be that of a liar—of an ape! . . . My art is my prayer; and, believe me, no true artist creates what he does not believe, speaks of what he does not love, writes of what he does not think. . . . As far as regards me, since you put the question, let me inform you that, before all, I am a Christian, and that all the accents in my work which impress you are only inspired and created primarily by that alone.
>>123980751perhaps you’d like to stop being a repetitive bore and find a new bit.
>>123980710Your culture is Christianity if you're European-that's not even debatable. Paganism is pure very late 19th century Larp, mainly practised today by leftists
>>123980751do you really believe that the spammer's vocabulary is expansive enough to properly articulate and explain anything in regards to music?
>>123980768There's no bit at all. >perhaps you’d like to stop being... repetitive KEK
>>123980710>Would sound the same musically, if we assume Wagner is born.What a massive faggot, the story and the words are part of the work. Leave this board and go back to Venusberg, where retards like you belong. Or ask God, Elisabeth and Tannhauser, Parsifal and Kundry, for forgiveness
>>123980785No I guess not
>>123980785apparently more expansive than yours since i know more about set theory than you do, pedophile kraut. >>123980788it’s too late to walk back your bit, buddy guy. we all know what you’re doing and it got stale the third time you tried it.
>>123980770My culture is not, and never was christian. The proof is the decline of christcuckery in Europe. Wagner saved classical music from this shameful cultural invasion.> by leftistsWrong.
Yuja Glass Wanghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJkeKmtLnDY&ab_channel=DeutscheGrammophon-DG
>>123980794>the story and the words are part of the workDid I say the story and words would be the same, you blind faggot?
>>123980770most of the "Christian culture" which you are thinking of (morality and ethics and democracy etc.) was already developed by the Greeks. The Christian-exclusive parts of it (such as the specific belief in the Abrahamic god over the Greco-Roman ones) could be done away with without much difference. So no, European culture isn't "Christianity", the culture is "Greco-Roman".
>>123980819>>123980830>>123980832thank you wignat bagan wagnersisters
>>123980810I am not whoever it is you keep calling "pedophile kraut" (which from what I've gathered is actually multiple people acting the same)
>>123980828>that first comment
>apparently more expansive than yours since i know more about set theory than you do, pedophile kraut.Holy hek are you actually underage? Cause this is something an angry spoiled child would say
>>123980832Based knower.
>>123980851you really expect me to believe it’s multiple people pretending to be a narcissistic german man who’s obsessed with jews, reger, and riemannian theory and also grooms kids on discord? lmfao>>123980875stating a simple fact that was confirmed in the previous thread makes me an angry spoilt* child? LOL
>>123980819I'm not going to debate you Jerry>>123980810I just think it'd be good if you explained what the furtwanglerian school of subjectivist tempo draggers is? Some of the folks may be confused as to what this is
>>123980828/queen/ worthy performance of a boring etude.
>>123980901i think it’d be good if you came up with a new bit, this one isn’t faring so well.
>>123980832Europe has been Christian for 1600 years or so, that can't just be written off. And all the Christian thinkers kept studied the Ancient Greek philosophers
>>123980895I read the other thread and you didn't even know what seven tone projection was or what unified theory is so I'd say the other guy won. And yes you do sound like a spoiled child-gain some self awareness sisterposter
>>123980976seven tone projection was completely unrelated to the subject matter at hand (set theory has no reliance on triads or fifths like triadic harmony and combining a T7 set with the original set and calling it a “projection” is just arbitrary bullshit) and “unified theory” just means he’s combining random bullshit together as he feels like it to create his own nonsensical jumbled music theory. sounds like you don’t even understand what was being discussed.
>>123980830Accept Christ anon, be like WagnerWOLFRAM: An angel prayed for you upon earth, soon she will soar above you, blessing;VENUS: Come, oh, come! To me! To me!TANNHÄUSER: Leave me!WOLFRAM: Elisabeth!TANNHAUSER: Elisabeth!WALTHER, HEINRICH DER SCHREIRER, BITEROLF, REINMAR, MEN: Hail to the soul that is now fled from the pious martyr's body!WOLFRAM: Your angel is praying for you at the throne of God, she has been heard: - Henry, you are saved!VENUS: Lost to me, alas! (Venus vanishes. The day dawns, as a funeral procession leaves the Wartburg and approaches)WALTHER, HEINRICH DER SCHREIRER, BITEROLF, REINMAR, MEN: Hers is now the angel's blessed recompense,the supreme prize of celestial bliss!WOLFRAM: (to Tannhäuser) And do you hear the chant?TANNHÄUSER: I do!MEN: Holy the pure maid who now united withthe heavenly host, stands in the presence of the Everlasting! Blessed the sinner for whom she wept,for whom she implores salvation of heaven!TANNHÄUSER: Holy Elisabeth, pray for me!(He dies. The scene is flooded by the red glow of dawn)YOUNGER PILGRIMS: Hail! Hail! Hail to the miracle of mercy! Redemption is conferred upon the world. It came to pass in the holy hour of night, the Lord manifested Himself in a miracle. The barren staff in a priest's hand He decked with fresh green: for the sinner in the fires of hell redemption shall blossom thus afresh! Throughout all lands let it be proclaimed to him who has found forgiveness by this miracle! High above all the world is God, and His Mercy is no mockery!WALTHER, HEINRICH DER SCHREIRER, WOLFRAM, BITEROLF, REINNAR, LANDGRAVE, KNIGHTS AND OLDER PILGRIMS: The salvation of grace is the penitent's reward, now he attains the peace of the blessed!YOUNGER PILGRIMS: Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!
>>123980999Perhaps it'd be useful for you to explain to the folks what triadic harmony is
>>123981024yawn
>>123981015>be like WagnerI'll be like the smart, young, intelligent Wagner, a friend of Nietzche, and mock Christianity forever, until my death.
>>123980832>Greco-RomanIncoherent concept. Almost as dumb as "Judaeo-Christian"
>>123981046Nietzsche*
>>123981046thank you wignat bagan wagnersister
>thank you wignat bagan wagnersister
what a shit thread
>>123981094stop posting your fap material and put your trip back on, pedophile kraut
sisters may i ask a question? okay. here i go...what are the best performances for lohengrin, parsifal, tannhauser, and tristan und Isolde? arigato gozimasta!
Yuja Blue Wanghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce3OERuCY0E&ab_channel=PeterChen2.0
>>123981046Let's see what happened Nietzsche On 3 January 1889, Nietzsche suffered a mental breakdown.[71] Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What happened remains unknown, but an often-repeated tale from shortly after his death states that Nietzsche witnessed the flogging of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms around its neck to protect it, then collapsed to the ground.[72][73] In the following few days, Nietzsche sent short writings—known as the Wahnzettel or Wahnbriefe (literally "Delusion notes" or "letters")—to a number of friends including Cosima Wagner and Jacob Burckhardt. Most of them were signed "Dionysus".Additionally, he commanded the German emperor to go to Rome to be shot and summoned the European powers to take military action against Germany,[75] writing also that the pope should be put in jail and that he, Nietzsche, created the world and was in the process of having all anti-Semites shot dead.[76]Kek, so much for hating jews.Now listen to some great musichttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzLg5wQdeKU
>>123981180He must have had a vision of the two world wars and realised what a mistake Germany was
>>123981134
>>123981134Solti, except for Tristan und Isolde
>>123981220lmao what a troll
>>123981134>parsifalKegel
>>123981201The world that succeeded Germany was a mistake
>>123981015God is simply not real, dude.
>>123981048>I'm a contrarian retard pseudcool?
>>123981263so true tipster sister, so true.
>>123981059>bagan>wignatWhy aren't you using standard vocabulary instead of baby talk?
>>123981295great question wignat bagan wagnersister
>>123980643Goddamn, Giulini's Brahms is truly special. Transcendent readings.
>>123981229i believe it was last thread when i had explicitly stated that those kinds of people are not my kind of people
>>123981312special ed maybe. it is quite literally retarded after all.
>>123981263"I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their scores, and I assure you that they are doomed to speedy oblivion because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their work is purely cerebral. No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer." - Johannes Brahms, 1896
>>123981262Germany still exists though
What composers were atheists?
>great question wignat bagan wagnersister
>>123981275Be less self-deprecating when introducing yourself
>>123981363stop posting your fap material and put your trip back on, pedophile kraut
>>123981357All of these composers explicitly reject the notion of any gods or religious dogma. (Except Beethoven and Mozart, whose views are very difficult to ascertain; which very likely means they didn’t believe in anything, since at that time and place, expressing atheist views was very risky. Certainly Haydn thought Beethoven was an atheist.)BartokBeethovenBerliozBizetBrahmsBurgon, GeoffreyBusoniDebussyDeliusGraingerHarrison, LouJanacekKabalevskyKhachaturianLigetiMahlerMarshall-Hill, GeorgeMaxwell DaviesMozart (almost certainly)OrffPaganiniProkofievRavelRimsky-KorsakovRoremRubinstein, AntonSaint-SaensSay, FazilSchubertSchumannShostakovichSibeliusSmythStrauss, RichardTchaikovskyTippettVareseVaughan WilliamsVirgil ThomsonVerdiWagnerXenakis
>>123981378Fine work deleting the anti Jewish posts Tranny Janny
>>123981382thanks tipster sister>>123981389too bad they won't delete the pedo kraut dogspam.
>>123981134>LohengrinSymon Byckov>ParsifalKubelik or Boulez>TannhauserSawallisch or Barenboim (Barenboim has the most "complete" version with some more music written for the paris version while ignoring the cuts from that same version, plus some music in act 2 for a few seconds which is only in one version of the score and no one else ever plays, BUT it's missing the Paris bacchanale which Sawallisch does have, and also Sawallisch is just generally better)>TristanBöhm or Pappanothe sistersposter might try to give you his opinion too because he's a narcisist. Ignore him as he does not even like Wagner in the first place.>>123981253Rene Kollo sucks too much for that to be the best
>>123981382Wagner was a Lutheran.
>>123981410thanks deaf wagnersister
I'd never seen your favorite little composer Vagner before who never sold much.
>>123981462hissfaggotry where you can't hear half the orchestra + it's in fucking MONO
My HRT? Gladly. And I’ll listen to Furtwangler conducting Brahms while I’m at it!
thoughts on Messiaen?
Music for wood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4JQD0cy87I&ab_channel=LondonSymphonyOrchestra
>>123981590Boulez was right.
my favorite opera is Wozzeck
Bachhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijxpmjn65xw&list=OLAK5uy_m5773vgHjY7zzxj9SiiNK9vEJGppx_C8E
>>123981667cool
Beethovenhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bx9l1lCVCM
>>123981689Much better than the Grosse Fugue
>>123981689Much worse than the Grosse Fugue
Grosse fugue... just gross.
>>123981601Boulez didn't have the balls to write music like that.
Grosse fugue... just große
>>123981756yes, tranime is very gross indeed.
>yes, tranime is very gross indeed.
>It is moving, how he tried to win Delius's friendship who was twenty years his senior. "I am so alone" he wrote to Delius in 1910 -, "I have no one here to talk to, except my only friend, Kodaly, and so far I have not met anybody elsewhere either, who has been standing so near me from the beginning as you have". However, this friendship also remained an illusion and Bartok's attempts for an opening were just as well confined to his works as the expression of his restlessness and dissonances. His disappointment in ideas, his awareness of his loneliness in the universe and his maintaining consciously (without any aim and reason) the ideal basic direction - in short: the situation of reaching man's estate -, help us understand the polarization and antagonism of inside world and outside world and the search for a solution by artistic means.
>>123981840stop posting your fap material and put your trip back on, pedophile kraut
>>123981849It sounds so tragic yet so whiny.
>>123981756Wagner would have liked anime
>>123981905it comes with being a tranny
>>123980465Nothing Bach ever wrote has an inch on Beethoven's "Moonlit Sonata." And have you heard his "9th Symphony?"Pretty much all the music you listen to is rooted in Beethoven. Name any composer--literally any; provided they aren't shit, all of their styles ultimately derive from Beethoven's revolutionary masterpieces.And buy in large, the Romantic era is far better than the shitty Classical period of bourgeois chamber music and Baroque autism. There's a reason names like Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Bartók, Chopin, Liszt, Wagner, and Mahler are far more known to the contemporary public than obscure faggots like Gluck, Scarlatti, Handle, Bieber, Haydin, and Gesualdo. They actually composed listenable music that wasn't just two-note circlejerks over the same harmonic sequence OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Goddamn Classical music sucked ass. You retarded for calling Beethoven shit: you're obviously too much of a pleb to enjoy him. Beethoven created and defined what we know as "music," and he marked the point where classical music turned from boring Zzzquil made for overpriveleged aristocrats and Popes to actual powerful beautiful music for the sake of art.
>>123981951>bourgeois le badinto the trash
>>123981737https://youtu.be/3GiJ53_BVbE
>>123981951stop wasting my time
>>123981979This was literally western music’s peak.
>>123981905people who like that type of anime (le cute smug girl making fun of my small wee wee or cute oblivious girl falls over and class sees her panties) are such fucking losers Jesus Christ. It's nearly inconceivable to me that a grown adult willingly watches this slop. How do people like that even live? What are their hobbies? What are their jobs like?
>>123982013isn’t it obvious? they’re tranny gooners.
post your personal holy trinity
>>123981999Peak of shit
>>123982043Bach Mozart Beethoven obviously this has been established as scientifically correct
>>123982043The three men I admire most- the Father, the Son and The Holy Ghost
>>123981985You're already doing that by listening to Bach.
>>1239820431. Mozart2. Schoenberg3. What's the point? It's already perfect.
>>123982024
>>123982081>Schoenberglol
>>123981979I think the logical conclusion with that sort of music is just writing pure rhythm-which is what it should be. There's no point pretending there's any melody or anything there
>>123982100What is so funny?
Beethovenhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnEhTXV2500
>>123982087stop posting your fap material and put your trip back on, pedophile kraut>>123982107ironically enough, boulez detested unpitched percussion instruments.
>>123982013>What are their hobbies?Listening to Wagner, Schoenberg, Stockhausen, LigetiMasturbatingCrying
>>123982117woof woof
>The aim of music is not to express feelings but to express music.
>>123982131funnily enough, i get the feeling that the wagnersisters aren’t too fond of schoenberg. >>123982137stop ban evading, pedophile kraut
Karajan!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XYuF37eYME&list=OLAK5uy_kCir0jpKOG40XcM98L2U6qcWpM7Nr6CXU&index=1
>>123981951Relax mate. I enjoy Bach, Scarlatti, Telemann, Haydn. I like early music (medieval mostly). You enjoy your perfected music. Its fine.
>>123982141Boulez did neither>>123982143Schoenberg considered himself Wagnerian
>>123982155awful awful recordings
>>123982155the best 5th ever recorded
>>123982161i find that highly contestable, he seemed much more fond of brahms to me. >>123982168by the mentally disabled, maybe.
>>123982163I'll admit I've never been happy with any of the 8ths I've heard from Karajan but this 5th is pretty damn ideal.>>123982168Thank you brother
It was not until the mid-twentieth century when Schoenberg described Brahms as a progressive in his 1947 essay ‘Brahms the Progressive,’ and brought a new perspective on the way Brahms’ music was crafted. This essay claims that the uniqueness of Brahms’ music is predicated on a principle of composition coined by Schoenberg as ‘developing variation’. According to Schoenberg, ‘developing variation’ rests upon the idea that “whatever happens in a piece of music is nothing but the endless reshaping of a basic shape.” It is the idea that a simple thematic or motivic cell can form the basis of an entire piece of music, and any subsequent material that arises from it is merely a logical consequence of the preceding or foundational material. To create a sense of continuity, fluency and coherence in a piece of music therefore requires its structural units to be varied and transformed organically so that the musical journey unfolds in a smooth and logical manner. This method of composition was deemed by Schoenberg as artistically superior to Wagner’s direct repetition and transposition of material.
>>123982186i don’t consider a 5th with inaudible winds and gooey molten chocolate sauce strings poured over every single chord and phrase to be “ideal”, in fact it sounds like quite the opposite. almost like an orchestral sonority meant for strauss doesn’t work in beethoven.
>>123981951>it's for bourgeois>it's for aristocratsMake up your mind
>>123982197That's pretty damn late in his career 4 years before his death even
>>123982161>Schoenberg considered himself WagnerianSource?
Who is your favorite young performer? Any instrument goes (classical performer obv)
>>123982161>>123982178>>123982226Schoenberg admired Wagner, but he drew influences from many different composers. I do not think he was strictly a Wagnerian in the usual sense, but he did draw his works. In particular, Moses und Aron quotes some Wagnerian leitmotifs, such as the Dragon motif in the scene where Moses turns Aron into a snake, and in the Golden Calf scene where Schoenberg quotes both the Flower Maiden scene in Parsifal and the Venusburg scene in Tannhauser.In Schoenberg's own words:>From Wagner [I learnt]: >1. The way it is possible to manipulate themes for expressive purposes and the art of formulating them in the way that will serve this end.>2. Relatedness of tones and chords>3. The possibility of regarding themes and motives as if they were complete ornaments, so that they can be used against harmonies in a dissonant way.
>>123982228Víkingur Ólafsson.
>>123982198I like all of my music to be stringsmaxxed
>>123982234no one is denying that schoenberg took influence from wagner, but it’s pretty obvious that he considered brahmsian technique far more relevant to his compositional interests. >>123982266then listen exclusively to string quartets.
>>123982155Yeah it sounds pretty flawless so far. I think the sisterposter just like to whinge for the sake of it sometimes
>>123982361or maybe you just don’t know what the flaws sound like.
>>123982155A tendency to fetishize a particular kind of "beautiful" sound, full, compact and dominated by main melodic voices, with soft attack and broad strokes. Homogeneity takes precedence over the articulation of the particular and over contrasts. Emphasis on a metronomic beat, Karajan regards notation as essentially complete in that regard. Active involvement in the recording and mixing of his recordings, which exacerbates some of those tendencies further and produced some staggeringly unnatural-sounding records, particularly in the 70s.Now, while this approach can produce great results in some repertoire (mostly 20th century music, like Strauss, Debussy, Schoenberg, Honegger), I feel that it runs contrary to the demands of much earlier music, especially the Austro-German classics: Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner.All in all, Karajan was an immensely skilled conductor and orchestral trainer (which is evidenced by how similar his output with different orchestras is, at least if they're temporally close), but he developed a trademark sound which - being his trademark - he applied to everything.He's certainly one of the great and most influential conductors of the 20th century, but his fame tends to overshadow some currents of interpretation I consider more interesting and appropriate.
Personal preferences:>Choral music (non opera)>Solo piano>Chamber music>Solo cello>Harpsichord, clavichord
can someone here explain to me what the fuck "developing variation" actually is?
now playingstart of Elgar: Piano Quintet In a Minor, Op. 84https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXffAy0tU4k&list=OLAK5uy_nXKlIfzQ5SThs2JMfSBg0pYmnr3V53Ojg&index=2start of String Quartet In e Minor, Op. 83https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGRXaI6GNrc&list=OLAK5uy_nXKlIfzQ5SThs2JMfSBg0pYmnr3V53Ojg&index=4https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nXKlIfzQ5SThs2JMfSBg0pYmnr3V53Ojg>>123982361They know what they like and feel strongly about it is all. My love for Karajan's Beethoven is secure though. Also listening to it now and the 8th on that recording is better than I remember; not as ideal as the 5th, certainly, and I could be more easily convinced of better recordings, but it's still pretty damn great.
>>123982394I like your posts, very informative albeit subjective. But I always want ONE extra thing: the comparison. If you say there are others, who are they? Just drop one or two names. Anyway, good posts.
>>123982394I don't disagree with anything here but what it really boils down to is how agreeable one finds Karajan's trademark sound, and what can I say but I, far more often tha not, fuckin' love it. If I had been in the studio with him when he was mixing the recordings, if at every final decision he turned to me and asked "what do you think?" my response, a large majority of the time, would have been a resounding "yes!" I know this doesn't hold for everyone, but for a great deal of people? Definitely.
>>123982439in essence, it’s building an entire movement or piece out of a small handful or even just one motif that is developed upon to create variations of the motif throughout the piece.
>>123982515a great deal of people are stupid golems who follow what they’re told, yes.
Are there multiple version of Brahms' 3rd Symphony? Because I've noticed some recordings list the first movement as either Allegro or Allegro - Un Poco Sostenuto.
>>123982533the former are just omitting mention of the tempo change in their track titles, they still perform it regardless.
>>123982497NTA but if I'm not mistaken, as far as Beethoven 5 goes, I believe one of the knowledgeable anons who isn't a fan of Karajan's Beethoven here would suggest this one:Szellhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSHXW0Vv60&list=OLAK5uy_kCztGtNSK88V3G5VapKgP6nkGlFS0WBEA&index=32and another anon would suggestMarkevitchhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv84szTqfNk&list=OLAK5uy_kSOST6b1n71SIQpyKstfY0JkCjAGESOV8&index=6or maybeScherchenhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xVjnRfdEi0&list=OLAK5uy_k6QO-_XNIZpSUHIFHgi5Pe3iq9G0TWzdk&index=17Better than Karajan's? They'd say so, but all that matters is what you think. I know how I feel, great as these other ones are.>>123982530Hey, you said it yourself: people like chocolate :)
>>123982441It's a shame how relatively meh Elgar's symphonies are with how great these are, as well as his violin and cello concertos. Oh well.
>>123982602liking chocolate is one thing, liking chocolate sauce poured over asparagus is just bad taste.
>>123982701Sure, except my taste buds tell me it's not asparagus but strawberries. and therein lies the fundamental difference of opinion.
>>123982701>he doesn't like asparagus with chocolatengmi
>>123982771>beethoven is strawberries just because of karajanit’s not so hard to admit that you just have bad taste, you know.
>>123982830kek did I accidentally mistype and recommend Norrington? Karajan is just different taste, though I suppose that route isn't as fun.
>>123982851the only difference between karajan’s beethoven and norrington’s beethoven is that karajan’s is more socially acceptable to enjoy. both are equally idiosyncratic, contrived, and unidiomatic at the end of the day.
>>123982869Except, y'know, Karajan sounds good, amazing even.
>>123982960if you have a diet consisting mostly of cum, maybe
>>123982960that’s the point, he doesn’t. he sounds like shit in beethoven.
>>123982969>>123982976Enjoy what you like, I'll enjoy what I like.
>>123983021i can only pray that you learn to like better some day.
>>123982497Consider his Eroica, the first and second movements of which are objectively too slow. The opening of the first movement tempo should be around "quarter = 180", Karajan is far removed from that. Karajan also uses the American orchestral seating, which is objectively anachronistic for this repertoire and obscures Beethoven's antiphonic string writing.Compare the restrained, violin-dominanted playing of Karajan:https://youtu.be/nbGV-MVfgec?t=231With Scherchen:https://youtu.be/vOjSVtxnzPQ?t=352Keep in mind that the entire orchestra is marked fortissimo during this passage. If you think Karajan's brass is playing fortissimo, you are delusional. It's a much larger brass section playing at a much quieter volume. Again, it's a good recording, but rather boring and not at all in the spirit of Beethoven.
>>123983112could you reupload your edits of the mono recordings in the scherchen cycle? thinking of filling out my catalog.
What's the appeal of Wagner?
>>123983112Thanks mate.
>>123983466transsexuality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5QUjz7n0dkI am simply not like others, I am different then you miserable inferior roaches. You are all so inferior, poor and degenerate in not only your taste but also your life-styles. You are all fucking slaves to a system that delights in abusing you. Pity how your sad miserable lives will end in debt to a system you servile slaves never could understand.I on the other hand have my mind, spirit and imagination. I can create worlds out of nothing, there is no authority that can supress this. I am a fucking KING of the modern world, a deity, an enlightened spirit lord, I am fucking rich, I AM A FUCKING GOD.
>Ludwig was intensely interested in the operas of Richard Wagner. This interest began when Ludwig first saw Lohengrin at the impressionable age of 15, followed by Tannhäuser ten months later. Wagner's operas appealed to the king's fantasy-filled imagination.The spirit of Ludwig the Second has reincarnated inside my soul.
>>123983486thank you wagnersister
>>123983505Wagner RAPED your head. You cant comprehend anything else but Wagner, when you wake up, you think of Wagner, WAGNER WAGNER WAGNER is all your life amounts too.
Just look at him, I cant seriously blame you.
>>123983504>>123983518>>123983532thank you wagnersister
Just look at him, so reserved and humble.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT, just look at him. FUCKING HELL, I AM FUCKING GAY.
New>>123983603>>123983603>>123983603
NEW>>123983602>>123983602>>123983602>>123983602>>123983602>>123983602
>>123983466the stories
