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"Remember the days below" edition

>What is this?
/TG/ DEVELOPED A GAME
IT IS PLAYABLE. IT HAS BEEN PLAYED.
EXPEDITION is a ~1880s era, Jules Verne-inspired retro-futurist, underground blood soaked adventurescape.
It is a Skirmish wargame. Two players with their own expeditions, on a hexgrid map, explore & fight each other for victory and profit.

3 versions of the rules exist, 2 of which have been playtested. The main one is 2e, to be found :
>https://www.mediafire.com/folder/us7vnek39dc6k/AgarthaRules
as with maps, tokens and lore resources.

>TL;DR Doc
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LxdaGoBlJRTMuziMDupG5TeeFwNDnsIW2pfaRAcFDgA
>Main Lore Doc, including links to anon-written short stories and additional lore in "Recommended..." section

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>>96587244
>Ok, I'm trying to make the maps with the icons in the file. They work well, but I have to make them with a white background. Either that, or I need to clean up each of the icons so that we could use the sepia background.
I don't know if that'll fix it to your liking, but what I've done is first place a white hexagon grid, then the terrain, and after that another black grid but with some transparency.
Otherwise that's a really cool idea. I don't see any problems with it from a mechanical point of view
>>
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1st quick setup instruction page for the TTS mod (I guess it could also be useful to add it to the main rule book at the end), leaving some space if I think of stuff to add to it, I'll be doing another one with the main Actions and mechanics (that one will probably be very useful as a quick reference sheet) and another one to guide players if they want to go beyond the very start, NPCs, Scenarios, Conditional Rules, Campaigns, etc.
>>
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> A foolish Iconodule is lured away from his force by the sight of the elusive Legfish, only to be set upon by four Devolved Deepfolks.
>>96586395
Done!
>>
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I've started resizing the TTS mod's tokens, adding the names and health profiles to the tokens directly, I'm through the Colonial Factions, and added >>96590423.
The British book was one version late, which is why Sgt Flashpowder and the Khaki dudes were missing. Fixed.
I've started a list of missing tokens, will fix soon enough.
> picrel
WIP of my Saur Keshiq.
Saur is an old metal Cold One.
Legs are from the Dark Elf rider it came on, I greenstuffed the torso from a Kairic Acolyte, the head is from the barbarian chaos dude from the Silver Tower GW board game I've never got around to play. I plan on using the rest of his body for a Gorg once I find the proper head.
>>
>>96591417
>Saur Keshiq
I've got one in the pipeline too! (which I'll start after the Saur Squire is done [sculpting scale mail to fill some gaps is not fun])

Mine will use a Perry Afghan head, wargames factory Persian bow, and a victrix armoured late roman rider with the cloak option.
Mount will be the same Saurus Scale Veteran Cold one with sculpted saddle I posted earlier thanks to magnets.

I've also got some sort of Kairic Acolyte from that eyes of the nine box I got on discount, I figured it would make a good Lemurian with the very sculpted muscles. It's cool to see how the same kit can go in very different directions and how the same unit can be gotten at from two different angles.

welcome to the New School Revolution General, the thread dedicated to games derived from the OSR movement

>What is the NSR?
the NSR is a subcategory of the OSR, it mostly follows the same play style but experiments further with the mechanics and settings
*broadly NSR games*
*have* a gm, a interesting setting, living world
*are* rules light, deadly
*and focus on* emergent narrative, external interaction and exploration

>What is this thread for?
this thread is for system, adventure, setting, mechanics, ongoing campaigns, anything that related to the *actual* game
POST ART ALSO, inspiration and for the tg threads

>What is this thread NOT for?
meta discussions or drama of the games and its creators aka shadowboxing with twitter, reddit and the OSRG (frens with osrbros)

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Hey do you fuckers like Fabula Ultima?
>>
>>96591060
yes, I forgot trad means railroad
>>
>>96591086
Aesthetically, I tend to prefer weeb over just about everything
Structurally, there's a lot going on and there's some things to like, but there's a lot of stuff that feels like they're just slamming ideas from other games together, and I wish they tuned in the focus a little tighter on what exact kind of JRPGs they were trying to be like.
Worth a look, worth a play, needs more tits.
>>
>>96587652
Think of the hand jobs.
>>
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The genius of Mork Borg is the tables being compressed story generators. You don't find a "+1 Dagger", you find the "Vampiric Phurba". At first, you think you've scored a sweet lifesteal weapon, but the item has its own built in narrative: the hook is the d3 healing, and the rising action is that after stealing just 6 HP, you risk addiction. Suddenly the climax isn't a big battle, but the daily choice you now face: stab anyone with the knife before sunrise, or wither to ash. The item itself creates a perfect, self contained arc about temptation, addiction, and desperation that the player chooses to engage with. It's not a DM telling you a story, the story is embedded in the very mechanics of the cursed shit you find.

And that, gentlemen, is where games ascend into a form of art - a story that doesn't belong to the player or the book, but emerges from the space where they collide and become one.

Reclaimed Edition

Here is a thread to discuss trading card games other than the big three.
>Build Divide
>Force of Will
>Final Fantasy TCG
>DBZ CCG
>Wixoss
>Keyforge
>Gundam
>Legend of the 5 Rings (L5R)
>Digimon
>Flesh and Blood
>Gate Ruler
>Battle Spirits

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>>96591246
Yeah that’s insane to me because I never heard of one piece until I walked into an lgs for the first time like 3 months ago and asked what games are popular. Several people I have chatted with don’t even know what gundam is, they tend to be younger though. I think gundam is possibly more just recognizable to the average person from the models in every craft store but it doesn’t have a huge following from manga/anime like one piece does.
>>
Neither Bandai game is lasting 10 years.
>>
And I pray to god no Bandai game breaks within the top 3 in my lifetime. Lazy company that don't deserve it.
>>
>>96579705
my favorite avatar is waveshaper and i play all water. im pretty noobish but my strat is to let other player make the first move putting minions down then riptiding to drown them or other instant kill methods. Build up the mana for great old one or vatndraconis then finish him off with that. waveshapers ability to tap to flood a site and tap enemy minions there is really strong once you don't need to tap for anymore sites.
>>
>>96591402
fuck the big 3 anything is better than that shit

Yoooo edition

Previous: >>96486846

A thread for discussing the Star Wars franchise and its various media and tabletop games.

Fantasy Flight Games’ X-Wing, Armada, and Legion
>https://pastebin.com/9puqx1ze

Star Wars Roleplaying Games (d6/d20/FFG)
>https://pastebin.com/iUriRfaA

Other FFG Star Wars tabletop (Imperial Assault, Destiny and the LCG)
>http://pastebin.com/ZE4gn0yN


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>>96580902
Pubes status of your OC or favorite character?
>>
>>96590738
Shaved
>>
>>96587046
Ventress (until it was undone by Fagloni writing)
>>
>>96590018
idc, nigga. i'm sure that someone could write that story properly, even though it's nothing new.
>>
>>96590229
>Lucas said in the director commentary that maybe the start was questionable, but by the end Palpatine 100% threw the fight to get Mace to show his hypocrisy and Anakin to turn.
Soruce on that? I believe it with the visuals of Palpatine "ooh no im so weak ahh no dont kill me please" and then crapping out a fuckton of lighting

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You know the drill, post you terrain collection, WIP terrain, or terrain inspiration!!!!
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>>96558751
Very nice looking table, shame you're playing 40k on it. Look how the rules encourage troops to stand in giant blobs LMAO
>>
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>>96576088
I believe that was 8th edition 40k. Our group moved over to Kings of War and Bolt Action right now. 40k is in a bad place. Best games for terrain is infinity/frostgrave/dropzone.
>>
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it’s been a while since Ive posted it because it’s been a while since Ive worked on if, but I finally decided the can will be a building not a silo or resevoir. I created an entrance/airlock for it. not sure what the second floor will look yet
>>
>>96557888
What would it take to get another place like Terragenesis up and running in the current day? Would it just be a website that has a discord?
>>
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got my basecoat down on my power relay industrial building thing

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I’ve been using the Greek and/or Norse gods in my own campaign settings, but I want to start making my own deities and pantheons going forward, if you have any advice, I’d love to hear it please. Same for anything you’re willing to say about your own gods and goddesses, or any art of gods or related entities like angels.
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>>96585150
Sure, no problem.
This particular Prime has really porous borders with neighboring primes and other planes. The Earth equivalent world was purged of most life by demonic forces until reconquered by elves and their human slave-soldiers. There is a small, fractured population of Native American peoples scattered in the arid (safer) parts of the world, with their very active gods already. In this new world, they find aspects of the old gods of their homeworld to worship. The homeworld is a low-magic, early imperial Rome so they bring Jupiter, Neptune, Hera and Hercules to the new world. Other humans migrate in over the millenia, bring Norse and Japanese beliefs that affect the composition of gods worshipped. So, gods and spirit beliefs derive from the power of these beliefs.
In the century after the human revolt against their elven masters, the first new religion arises, that is the belief in One. One is not a god, One is. With the discovery of elemental magic, the Elemental Church also started. Neptune worship is rapidly supplanted into Njord worship. One nation has a goddess of their home islands that they created out of thin air, she appears as a shimmering light that heals and sometimes grants favors. Other spirit practices exist, such as summoning enormous animal spirits, again through the power of belief.
This is also the root of clerical or divine magic.
So, in this context (apologies for the length), the old world's gods are still officially worshipped by the major empire on the world. This is only done by state bureaucrats and the imperial family during festivals. It's just enough mana to keep the old gods visible as humanoid entities, except Njord who is worshipped by many merchants and sailors. This is how you end up finding Jupiter angry-drunk at a bar.
>>
>>96537281
Can we get some more good art of deities please? What about angels? Also, what more can you say about angels in your settings? Mine essentially have a hive mind that allows them to act as one, at least for angels serving the same god.
>>
Never been a fan of how often gods are just basic humanoids most of the time.
>>
>>96537281
Gods are often used to explain certain questions that the monkey brains we have struggle to think of. For example where do we go when we die? Seeing as you said you used Greek Gods alot you are aware of Hades the ruler of the underworld who cares for the dead in the after life, you probably also know Thanatos the actual god of death. There's also the various psychopomps like Hermes who guide souls to Hades.
Keeping on with the Greeks theres Gods like Nyx, goddess of Night and Erebus Primordial God of Darkness. Used to explain two things that are essential to the world but further delving into the concepts of their domains makes the brain hurt.

Whilst the pantheon can be as you want you have to remember not everybody will worship a God. Your average pleb isnt committed to Hephestus for example because they arent a smith of any kind, famously Sparta worshipped Ares alot because of their war centric culture whilst other places rarely worshipped the guy mostly cause Ares was the unfun parts of War to many cultures.

My pantheon is broken down mostly into stuff that explains why a piece of nature is there and stuff that comes about from mortals, example I have a God of Life called Life, he is the flow of life itself his followers depict him as an eternal wanderer as even when someone stands still life still walks on, an example of a God that comes from mortals is Morok the God of Philosophy and Enlightenment a very mortal centric God seeing as Philosophy and the search for Enlightenment are things we as people invented for various reasons and each have a want for in our own way.
>>
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>>96588982
>With the discovery of elemental magic, the Elemental Church also started.
I would love to hear more about the Elemental Church please.

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Is Guts a good representation of a level 20 Fighter?
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>>96591160
4E's level cap is 30.
>>
>>96586648
Guts is not even level 20 in his own world he couldn't do shit to Femto
>>
I have Guts for Savage Worlds as a rank 10 character.
Guts
Attributes: Agility d10, Smarts d6, Spirit d4, Strength d10, Vigor d8
Skills: Athletics d6, Battle d4, Common Knowledge d4, Fighting d10, Intimidation d4, Language (Native) d8, Notice d6+2, Occult d4, Persuasion d4, Riding d4, Shooting d8, Stealth d6, Taunt d6
Pace: 6; Parry: 9; Toughness: 11 (4); Size: Normal (1)
Hindrances: Cursed (custom, major), Death Wish, Stubborn
Edges: Alertness, Berserk, Brawny, Improved Frenzy (custom), Improved Trademark Weapon (Sword, Great), Trademark Weapon (Sword, Great)
Armor: Plate Arms (Armor 4), Plate Corselet (Armor 4), Plate Leggings (Armor 4)
Weapons: Unarmed (Range Melee, Damage Str), Sword, Great (Range Melee, Damage Str+d10, +2 to Hit, +2 Parry)
Language: Native (native, d8)
Current Wealth: $500
Special Abilities
Languages Known: Native (native, d8)
Advances
Novice Advances

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>>96591160
1 and 2e soft cap at 20, but really hardcap based on your race if you're not human. They have rules to extend out to 36.
Basic is like 1/2e but soft caps at 14.
3.x and 5e soft cap at 20 but has no actual upper limit due to Epic progression rules.
4e hard caps at 30.
>>
>>96586648
>nu anime for nu males

Gross

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>see Traveller thread
>discover the system
>Traveller thread dies
Traveller thread
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>>96586144
>Megatraveller introduced an Imperium wide Civil War,

Does anyone know where I can get the Megatraveller books or at least more info on the civil war?
>>
How the fuck do you pronounce "Ihatei"?
>>
>>96589932
According to google:
The name "Ihatei" is pronounced ee-hah-TAY. This phonetic breakdown suggests the "ih" sounds like a long "ee" as in "see", the "hat" sounds like the word "ha", and the "ei" sounds like a long "ay" as in "day" or "say".
>>
I understand the MT and TNE eras but what is the setting for T5?
>>
>>96589829
The Imperial Encyclopedia is a Megatraveller product and is still considered central to the setting, and is quite literally an encyclopedia on Traveller concepts as well as the overall timeline.

You can find it just by searching for a .pdf.

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Why are Imperium fans like this?
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>>96563274
Terminally online goobers have devolved all lore discussions into "neo-gnatzee chud templars" vs "commie big titty blue tau GFs". The hobby is dead and all that is left are disgruntled nerds desperate to be seen as "cooler" than the other nerds by arguing over minutiae and crapping on everyone else. Nobody plays for fun anymore and competitons are just meta chasing fatasses who you'd think would have enough time to do an okay paint job with all the time they save by not showering but you'd be wrong. You're about 3 decades too late to enjoy the hobby because everyone in it hates themselves for still being good little GW pay piggoes and (you) for not wasting 40 years if your life hoping the stories would focus on anyone but the "humanity" team with a smattering of elf teamups as they mow down endless waves of green dumbasses, murder crabs and misguided evil rebel humans.
>>
>>96590403
>I don't want to find them and I'm probably going to scrub the fact I mentioned them outta my brain
Good approach.
>>
>>96560942
No one gives two guy fawkes about guardsmen
>>
>>96558528
>is like x but also y or sometimes z
cool meme very descriptive. they drink water and sometimes milk or juice
>>
>>96590082
>It's Astartesfags specifically who too often are legitimately unable to separate themselves from their toys, which they use as a self-insert power fantasy. Many of them seem to legitimately be aggrieved that other armies even exist in the game or setting. They want 40k to be nothing but loyalist Astartes, presumably with no opfor (except each other?)
the eternal non-marine cope. you exist to be opfor and that's okay!

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Knight of Swords Edition

>"New" Apocalyptic Subclasses UA: https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendium-images/ua/apocalyptic-subclasses/KKvJvHGmsJiNaafX/UA2025-ApocalypticSubclasses.pdf

>2024 PHB Scan (No more fingers edition)
https://files.catbox.moe/g8oo9h.pdf

>Cropped and rotated, but more artifacty
MjAyNCBQSEIsIE5vIFRodW1icywgT0NSZWQsIEFub24ncyBCb29rbWFya3MgdHJhbnNmZXJyZWQgb3Zlci4gCgpodHRwczovL2Vhc3l1cGxvYWQuaW8vd2Fvcm9h

>2024 DMG
https://files.catbox.moe/fd04pq.pdf

>2024 Monster Manual
https://files.catbox.moe/atd38s.pdf (D&D beyond version)

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>>96591036
Yea, I guess that works if you take the guide background for magic initiate

But all this is really solved if you replace twf with duelist, and just smack twice with the d10 club+2+Wis and use medium armor + a shield

>>96590862
>>96590945
Which is what I recommend.

>ask DM to swap your Asi
>Wis 15
>con 14
>dex 13
>12, 10, 8
>Str, int, cha in any order you desire

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Shillelagh and dual wielding is actually kind of interesting. It functionally gives you a d8/d12/2d6 light weapon. And using Strength you'd be mostly SAD, because the best light/Nick weapons are finesse.
>>96590945
So why are you WIS? 5 levels of ranger are way too many to be an effective druid.
Anyway, you should clearly respec as a STRanger X / Fighter 1 / Druid 1. TFW and Defense fighting styles, Shillelagh from Druid, club&scim and then a longsword/rapier attack when you pick up Dual Wielder for that sweet +1 DPR.
Or be sensible and do as >>96591094 suggests.
>>
>>96591120
nta but hes probably not minmaxing
>>
>>96591223
Asking why WIS ranger wasn't supposed to mean that's an unoptimal build so don't do it, just asking what the concept is. I DM for a player whose 2024 Ranger's Wisdom is higher than his Dexterity and it's to focus on Wis skills, like Survival, and his Beast Master companion's effectiveness. I'm curious what this anon's concept is. Saying "way too many to be an effective druid" probably came off as shitting on the character though, my bad.
>>
>>96591317
>Wis ranger

>pros
-Better DC on your spells
-better Wis skill rolls like survival, perception, insight
>cons
-weaker stealth
-lower initiative
-forced into medium armor

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Something clever edition

>Basics Pastebin
https://pastebin.com/GWjTU9Uv

>Anon's Locals Survival Guide
https://pastebin.com/xXp5jShL

>Fanmade PC sim
https://pastebin.com/u6aKrBSg

>Official Mobile sim (Release Date TBA)
https://www.digimon-alysion.com/en/

>BT22 Cyber Eden questionnaire

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>>96590816
>Ruins ex10
>May ruin bt23

I want the app menace to end. Theyre probably going to be shoehorned into ex11 too.
>>
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Is this just the hype price? I really cant justify buying this even though im a big bwg fan since gaio can fuck people's days up. I do acknowledge that this is great vs decks that has the word omni in it but it just doesnt wow me enough.
>>
>>96588476
It's not super hardcore nerd stuff in Japan. It's their history dude. Plus, everyone loves a good mystery.
>>
Can you articulate why you hate appmon so much?
>>
>>96591367
Yes. They've had constant support since the synch up of bt20-21 and we're at bt23 with them getting ex support as well. It' exhaustion. I tried watching the show, didn't care for it, but really I just am tired of it getting more support than agumon and veemon recently

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Trading Rogues edition

>RPG Rulebooks
https://rentry.org/40kRPGLinks
>Homebrew Collection (Feb 2025)
https://rentry.org/40RPGHB
>WANG/Imperium Maledictum News
https://cubicle7games.com/blog/warhammer-40k
>Bestiary, armoury, weapon quality and NPC database
http://www.40krpgtools.com/
>Dark Heresy 2e Character Creator:
https://apps.ajott.io/dh2chargen/
>General 40kRPG Encyclopedia
https://www.scholaprogenium.com/
>Offline Combined Armory (v6.48.161023)

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>>96589800
But they are the kind that play Primaris marines or give 8e lore undeserved respect.
>>
Dead Man's Hand of he Emperor session:

Crackolytes had one sleep and rejoined the Arbitrator in charge while the Proctor-Laureate is stuck getting ambushed in the deserte. Seems like having killed Seth ruined someone's huge plans and whoever's in charge is just fucking the most shit up they can.
Arbitrator says we can possibly get one squad, the one "the regiment wants to get rid of", if we convince them enough, to go help the siege. We ask how do we convince tthem to help more and the possible answer is going into the Administratum HQ and talking with the Adept-Intercolutor bitch.Kms myself.

Tech Priest clutches the diplomacy rolls and makes good argument to let the mockery of a human let us borrow her astropath.

>astropath is a 12yo boy
>our gm sure likes child labour huh
>callidia gets called a sad girl

We are nice to the astropath child and engage in conversation, since he's kept locked away only able to hear everyone's thoughts. He sends the message since the guard is nearby, he tell them to send a forward squad to reinforce the abbey while the main force lands on the port and meet with us.
Hopefully this is all enough to convince whatever general or colonel on the way, to go fight the Fratelis Templar even if we have to directly spin it on being about the tithe.

2 days left since their actual landing on the planet. Time to vox the Abbey about the good(?) news, if the Abbey doesn't have a long range vox then Callidia is using Haxta's riding crop on the Canoness.

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>>96589518
It sort of read like a reddit version of an in-universe wiki, though I liked the illustrations and annotations. The more personal touch rescued it.

>>96554616
Well, despite the lack of responses, we did it. Just. The point system turned out to be mostly unused and keeping Forcyz at a holographic distance helped. I had some problems getting the Inquisitor into things without him beating the players over the head with his rosette until they decided that they could squeeze an inquisitor on port wander with the information of what they've done in Modren's defeat. I wish them the best of luck on that one. It was actually a lot quicker than I thought it'd be - we plowed through it over the weekend. Their big reward was a dune knockoff planet to settle, but they've already got a station and colony so we'll see how that runs - or if they bother at all.
>>
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I know that planets can get in a lot of trouble for missing or not meeting their tithes. But what would happen if a planet's government sent out a message saying they've quarantined their planet due to a plague and will send what they owe next time?
>>
>>96591289
That's a purgin', you were a shit governor for allowing a plague.

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>Brutus' Drive
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B1qb0_OLhDrDYVVpbllIREdOczg?resourcekey=0-m3LU1xaC5-PnnA0VLRfK9g

>DriveAnon's Drive
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Cx7KoDkQa9qmDfJN9_CehZ0fxXEweKOu?usp=sharing

>Jumpchain IRC Chat
http://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.rizon.net/?#JumpchainCYOA

>Rules
http://pastebin.com/Gqj3iKyn

>How to Jumpchain
http://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1qb0_OLhDrDVDFBR2NpdG03S0U/view


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>>
Rolled 8 (1d20)

>>96591141
>Is it bad jump design to just keep adding more stuff to buy and more drawbacks to afford it until you run out of ideas that fit the setting/themes?
Fuck budgets, make them weep tears of frustration from not being able to afford everything they want to buy.
>>
>>96591183
There's a creek running through the park, so it's all sticky and humid most of the time. Also it's like a four mile walk to get to the part of the park that borders on the field that the ranchers let their cows roam in

I'll stick with my near expired clearanced ground meat
>>
>>96591141
As long as you don't get too off track it's probably fine. I've always been partial to big drawback sections
>>
>>96588590
Sauce for Bannerlord? I've had the game since launch, but was waiting for patches and mods and kind of forgot about it, and those kinds of mods are a powerful incentive to pick a game up again.
>>
>>96590858
Had a question about Exalted Leisure Zone. Can it includes things you can make but aren't normally part of the Exalted setting or potentially could be but aren't normally? Curious if you could get a Formula Front or Car racing scene going on in your Leisure Zone

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my wife Laura edition

- new live show or something https://www.twitch.tv/criticalrole

can someone recap wtf has happened since C3 ended in their million live shows because I have not been watching

also discuss C4?

how is everyone doing
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>>96591226
pic. They really are clueless or have no principles.
>>
Alignments haven't been a thing since... a decade, which is exactly how old CR is, gramps
>>
>>96589949
>He always said the books were guidelines and gave many options, there were many ways to play
> DM and players writing/scripting theater plays and rigging outcomes wasn't one of them
This is an oxymoron
You're saying "You can play however you want and use the book as guidelines, but don't play this way and ignore what I said in the beginning"
>>
>>96591280
lol no games
>>
>>96591280
Describe a scenario where a player would use allignment language to interact with an NPC making it so no one else would understand but useful information would be exchanged while it's possible to forget how to do that if you change allignment.

Battle Edition

>Bans
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/banned-and-restricted-june-30-2025

>News
The 2025 MagicCon and Pro Tour Schedule:
https://www.magic.gg/news/the-2025-magiccon-and-pro-tour-schedule

>Metagame Mentor: The Winners and Losers from Standard's 2025 Rotation
https://www.magic.gg/news/metagame-mentor-the-winners-and-losers-from-standards-2025-rotation

>Spoilers
http://www.magicspoiler.com/
https://mythicspoiler.com/

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>>96590173
Stop teasing me with a format nobody around me plays
>>
>>96591042
I can pretend the toy is magical in nature

I cannot pretend a modern hot dog stand is magical in nature
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>>96590803
Startrek is far and away less alive than starwars
>>
>>96591203
Not every artifact is a magical thing. The flavour of "you're a wizard summoning these things" has basically been lost for a while now (well before UB), so I'm not really too broken up.
>>
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>>96591203
In case you haven't noticed, valuable resources like mana or card advantage have often been represented through mundane wealth or artifice, and it's been that way for a long time.


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