A friend of mine is planning on running the game again after a hiatus as a player, and last time we played the Hunger/Thirst/Sleep meters were supposed to play a large role but ultimately got sidelined as the GM dislikes bean-counting.

As a fan of bean-counting I took a look again at the Survival mechanics, and I wonder why there's nothing positive or gained by interacting with the mechanics. Hunger and Thirst merely stave off fatigue, and while Sleep does give you a health bonus if you sleep for a certain amount of time, it's a single occurrence of the mechanic actually doing something for the player. Other survival games I've played (Valheim) have hunger/thirst as a mechanic that solely benefits the player, increasing HP and Stamina depending on what is eaten, with a ticking timer before you return to a baseline of starving and thirsty (but not killing you), while other games have these same Nuisance Mechanics (Armor Durability, etc.) that allow you to increase the effectiveness of a bar by repeatedly interacting with it (In this case, Oblivion and the Armorer skill, and past a certain skill level you can over-repair weapons to do extra damage, etc.).

It strikes me that positive feedback for using these mechanics would make them more engaging for players: it doesn't have to be game-changing, but something like a free d20 for a Strength/Endurance check for being Full or Sated on the Hunger bar, a free d20 on a Perception/Agility check while being quenched on the Thirst bar. (I'd also add an increase to difficulty on Perception checks when sleepy but, one thing at a time.)

>>97204488
>nothing positive or gained by interacting with the mechanics

Not being fatigued is the positive. Do you expect to run faster IRL because you drank a coffee or something?

>>97204848
I expect to be mentally sharper after drinking one, and I feel more motivated to do physical labor after having eaten. From a gameplay perspective, incentivizing with positive outcomes makes the system rewarding, rather than punishing to use. Having it be purely punishing (save for well-rested) makes the system more annoying. There's an argument you could make about it providing roleplaying moments should you(r players) bring insufficient supplies, but you would still have these moments in a system where being properly nourished improves your performance. I'm not saying it should provide permanent stat boosts or increase your stats at all like you're suggesting: maybe it would work like the special qualities provided by outfits/apparel as the base game already has (rerolling a single d20), but it's a one-time thing, maybe once per day.

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>>97201166
Sorry I took so long to respond, I’ve been busy. In case you’re still in the thread.

That’s what I was afraid of. I thought maybe the issue you’d run into was a framing one. But I guess life can’t be that easy. Now that I think about it we also had issues with that. Like it seems to work fine when the good guys and bad guys group up and don’t break up much. But if they do the cognitive load of remembering who’s in melee range of who and who can be shot from what range with what kind of gun gets, heavy. I’m wondering if that’s why the One Ring TTRPG had that strange abstract disc thing in the back of its Moria supplement. Iirc they have a more sophisticated take on Fallout’s range system, I’ll check it out.

>>97201416
That’s interesting, like the opposite direction zones take away from the battle map grid paradigm. Wargame-y even. Armchair advice here: you might want to front load that math into tables for your players and GMs to reference. Just to keep it easy.

>>97188114
The one Fallout 2d20 game I was in, one player spent 15 minutes of game time wanting to skin some feral dogs we fought. Near the end of the session, I demanded the skins as payment for me healing him.

>>97186951
I know there are a lot of giga noobs in this thread based off reading everything here, so I'll explain why it looks like Replenish and Enchantress are outsized compared to other archetypes
>enchantress and replenish are expensive to build
>people that own those decks are quite dedicated to them, discussing them often and working together to improve the deck and their play on the deck
>many other decks such as Burn and Madness are "intro" decks or nostalgic decks
>many noobs and format tourists play these decks with little preparation and push the win rates down against hyper focused and meta prepared replenish or enchantress gamers
Replenish and Enchantress are great decks because they have to be suppressed along two axis, not just one. They don't fold to the first interaction, or the second, or the third, and if you aren't applying pressure they will draw and combo out over the top of whatever interaction you're running.
Another big part of the problem is that Oath of Druids is blocking a ton of fair creature decks from being bigger players in the format. I know you're a little bitch faggot format tourist because you're crying about fucking Mox Diamond of all cards but not Oath of Druids. If Oath were to eat a ban the Enchantress and Replenish win rates would go down without a single card in either deck being touched.

>>97201288
>They don't fold to the first interaction, or the second, or the third, and if you aren't applying pressure they will draw and combo out over the top of whatever interaction you're running
Ah yes. Just put pre... Oh is that one of their several cards that negate any of your pressure?
>The Enchantress and Replenish win rates would go down
I doubt it. Replenish tends to run 3-4 swords and 3-4 mana leaks in addition to the four waves. It can delay quite well. Even a delay for one turn can win them the game. Replenish actually loses a lot to psychatog of all decks because tog runs 8-12 counterspells and 4 duress. The "fair aggro" decks are also outpaced already by goblins and stiflenought. Nought just beats through them and goblins can often get turn 4 wins with turn 2 siege gangs. Four swords in the deck on draw is a better chance to stop goblins from snowballing than goblins have to snow ball. All the deck then has to do is fish out the combo and win. It will turn out the same way against other "fair aggro" decks.

Enchantress likewise does well against goblins because it can just pop enchantments that say "you can't attack" into play and then leverage the swords and waves they put into the deck to delay until now they have the combo. Have to draw the naturalizes to stop them from stopping you from doing anything.

The only hard aggro match up here is elves since they can run naturalize and tranquil domain.

Those are already two of the strongest aggro decks in the format. If they can have a hard time against replenish and enchantress how do you think the weaker fair creature decks will do? They'll have a much harder time. If your solution is to put more pressure on their combos that can be gotten out as early as turn four and then suggest that the fair creature decks which often can't put as much pressure as goblins or elves do, you're out of your mind.

>>97206246
You're losing to Swords because you aren't flooding the board with early attackers. 4 Swords in the deck they still are less likely to draw 1 single Swords than not. If they remove early creatures they're asking to get rolled by larger creatures, and if they save the Swords you continue to pressure them
You're losing to 4 mana Parallax enchantments and Replenish because you aren't running mana denial. Rishadan Port and Wasteland have 0 mentions in this thread but are the format defining cards for aggressive decks. These cards are insanely good and they only take land slots. Aggro decks win their matches against Replenish and Enchantress by playing out creatures followed by attacking the mana base to delay them from resolving critical spells.
Elves is not advantage over Goblins in the match up because of Tranquil Domain, which Goblins can and does run (so does literally every green deck). The difference is Tangle Wire, which denies mana and plays while allowing the Elves player more time to set up their board and get damage in. Some builds of Replenish try to play around this with Frantic Search.
Fair creature decks do quite well against Enchantress and Replenish because they put a clock on the other deck in order to prove the win or lock out, and are able to run mana disruption or removal to slow them down enough. This is what Terrageddon does after sideboarding, it takes out Oath and instead tries to flood the board with Treetop Villages, Meddling Mage, and elephant tokens while also disrupting mana.

Welcome to Premodern noob, now silence your dogshit opinions until you play for longer

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Playing early threats

>>97207015
underpowered
heh

>>97211518
Not really.
>What game
>What system
>Post the PDF
>Buy an ad/shill
>Name 5
>That never happened
>Traditional Games?
>/pol/

That shit killed the board and fuck all was done to stop it.

>>97210641
>be wizard
>buy Standard Book of Spells: Volume 1
>now have every level 1 spell
Why is this not a thing? Why is everyone scrounging spells off scrolls?

>>97212048
Lack of transparency in the magic industry

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>>97212054
EQUAL DISTRIBUTION OF MAGIC TO THE PEOPLE
No more symbols
No more initiations
No more coded spellbooks that cost loads of gold and time to translate

>>97211646
As someone with patents that got kicked out of the tech startup: kek.

I believe in early editions in DnD there could be only one level 18 wizard (or only 1 level 16 druid something like this). So there was actually competition for ljmited spots. It made no fucking sense logically so they removed it.

Looking over player options for a game.
>Pick a race
Fair enough
>There are 93 options
Jesus
>Pick a class
Alright
>63 options
Fuck
>Pick an aspect
A what?
>It's an overall variation of a race. Like a fire-blessed (aspect) kobold (race)
Ah
>There's 25 of them


Comment too long. Click here to view the full text.

Carcassonne puts me to sleep.

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I finally taught another human being Imperium.
It was a smoother teach than I was expecting. He quite liked the system, hope we return to it soon.
Also it was my first time playing Mauryans, those expansionist elephants are hilarious. And the progress chit generation was nuts. I had 40 of them at endgame and I know i missed easily a half dozen "play a region, get a progress" trigger from the power card.

>>97211819
Guten nacht.

>>97187586
>me playing sekigahara

>>97211998
>Lasombra
>Physical
Ventrue and Trujah I could at least see an argument for, but they fit social better still.

>>97211992
>A man can dream
Not according to Pentex but I hope you land an ST for that.
>Indoctrination
The main thing is Kinfolk being second class citizens but also it was mainly an excuse to do a horny joke post. Yeah they do adopt some Garou but you're treated pretty badly without a tribe or if you're incredibly clueless about the nation.
>What do Changeling's gain from kinfolk merit
Well, this an interesting one. You basically get a Garou sept/pack/family to interact with as a plot hook, between doing favors for them or asking them for help. As an extra, the book also suggests you'd be expected to take a Werewolf wife/husband for your character as well. No real mechanical benefit for your changeling other than not being a complete spaz around Werewolf customs.
>Banality
Banality is basically like an inverse Glamour, and your character's Fae self gets lost to Mists (what prevents non-Fae from seeing Fae shit) and your human self forgets about the Fae until you gain some coincidental glamour. I'm not sure if long-term this has ramifications, but if you're sticking around the Garou full-time as an honorary Garou you'd be subject to a LOT of running back and forth in banality and glamour. It'd be a good idea to leave the sept for a bit, but a smart ST would probably use this to run a side plot for you while Garou politics or crazy shit happens. It could be done during your free time though but it's not like the Banality will go away. It's unlikely to be as severe as the WoD OC's unless you completely go into the Garou warrior lifestyle and the Nation politics.
>Naming
Still won't be able to tank nearly as well, it's a heavy glamour tax, you'd be safest sticking to Ragabash duties and trying your best not to go full Warrior, but you do what your character dreams of doing obviously. Not impossible, but Werewolves are just built for combat in a way other splats are not. Naming yourself into a Garou is also dangerous in case you super succeed and end up one for life.

>>97211998
>Saulot
>Social
I'd say he's much more of a mental chad considering his weird experiments on Kindred nature.

>>97212016
Ah shit. I did intend to swap those two. Basically I picture Zillah as making all the shysters. Enoch making all the monsters, & Irad making all the "traditional Ann Rice types"

>>97212057
No fuck you. Saulot is a shyster & a fraud

>>97212144
Tremere will never be a real Kindred, and he will never be a real Mage again.

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Might as well answer this with my own evil cult:
>You are a disgraced daimyo on the verge of losing an important war; you, your family and your vassals will all be massacred
>A dark power gives you a choice: either do nothing and face your imminent doom or make a dark pact and gain the power to protect your family and regain honor in the eyes of your shogun
>You accepted the deal? Great, now you and your vassals will become the most powerful swordsmen in all the land, but your souls have been claimed by an ancient demon king.
Desperation drove my villain into making a deal with something that he didn't fully understand. The villain has gone mad from willingly dooming his clan to being possessed by skin-wearing demons.

>>97201845
>Now imagine being myopically, solipsistically evil
Nobody wants to see himself evil. There are many other reasons to join some evil cult. For example, that's what is told us by Willd Durant:

The most terrible of the gods were under the earth. In caves and clefts and like nether chambers dwelt those chthonian or earthly deities whom the Greeks worshiped not by day with loving adoration, but at night with apotropaic rites of riddance and fear. These vague nonhuman powers were the real autochthonoi of Greece, older than the Hellenes, older perhaps than the Mycenaeans, who probably transmitted them to Greece; if we could trace them to their origin we might find that they were the vengeful spirits of the animals that had been driven into the forests or under the soil by the advance and multiplication of men. The greatest of these subterranean deities was called Zeus Chthonios; but Zeus here meant merely god. Or he was called Zeus Meilichios, the Benevolent God; but here again the words were deceptive and propitiatory, for this god was a fearful snake. Brother to Zeus was Hades, lord of the underworld that took his name. To placate him the Greeks called him Pluto, the giver of abundance, for he had it in his power to bless or blight the roots of all things that grew in the soil. Still more ghostly and terrible was Hecate, an evil spirit that came up from the lower world and brought misfortune, through her evil eye, to all whom she visited. The less learned Greeks sacrificed puppies to keep her away.

>>97207018
>Nobody wants to see himself evil
Plenty of theistic satanists openly acknowledge themselves to be evil and revel in it. I've personally met some.

>>97160877
The thing about the Chaos gods is that they are supposed to embody all aspects of their particular theme not just the negatives.

Like Khorne is the god of violence and destruction but he is also the god of martial prowess and warrior's honor, heck I'm not sure if it's still canon but it used to be that his followers killing defenseless innocents would piss off Khorne because there was no glory or skill in it.

Slaanesh is the god of extreme degeneracy but he is also the god of things like romance so for example if some kindly couple in the universe falls in love and has a family he also draws strength from it despite it being an act of pure wholesomeness and him ostensibly being an "evil" god.

Nurgle is the god not just of death and disease but rebirth and the cycle of life in general.

Tzeentch is probably the least outright "bad" of the Chaos gods because he is simply the god of knowledge and wisdom and planning. Not to mention that unlike Khorne, who was born during a period of lots of wars amongst mankind, or Nurgle, who was born during the time of plague, or Slaanesh, who was born due to the Eldar having a galaxy-wide murder-orgy, Tzeentch was born during a time of great scientific advancement in human civilization which is relatively benign compared to the other three.

>>97173471
People in real life find solace in all sorts of petty distractions, when you're dirt poor but still have food, shelter, and community, it's not that odd you wouldn't care that some people live better lives than you. Also, those people are distant and very rare, it's far more likely that the most powerful person you'll meet on a regular basis is a town elder or magistrate, or maybe a cleric at a local church. You might not ever even see adventurers pass by, and if you do it's more likely to be weak ones that are above a commoner but not absurdly so.

I could see more of outlook like yours being a thing for superhero settings, where elite villains spring up every week and can only be thwarted by a powerful hero like Superman or Spiderman or whatever. Not only do people frequently come into contact with the supernaturally gifted, media coverage shoves it in their face every day. It's extremely hard to feel like you're in control of your destiny when the people of the city are just the playthings of demigods.

>>97210352
>molotov cocktails
This implies that Molotov was/is still around in Trench Crusade, and that he was a notable heretic.

what models would you recommend for a Lie of Brian themed trench pilgrims force?

>>97211372
Victrix late roman archers kitbashed to have rifles, play as gunline sultanate

>>97211587
>>97210511
You said pilgrims and it doesn't change my answer only that I'm retarded when I'm a touch toasty

>>97206915
>>97206294
Late response but Shovels are equipment, not weapons. Equipment only take up a hand if they explicitly say so in their description. Shovel does not. This is intended as the whole point of them being allowed to be used in melee is making units with them and no other melee weapons. Marid shovel is the budget melee option for Brazen Bulls that just wanna sit back and bombard.

>>97211694
That was Tom Mendelsohn, not "gw"

>>97211694
No one cares what retarded faggots like you think.

>>97196003
>anyone who tries to hard to be a progressive wholesome guy is hiding skeletons or covering up for something
Progressivism is orders of magnitude worse than the petty bullshit their fellow leftists actually turn on them for. It's actually shocking how normal they are in their interpersonal dealings given their demented politics. You should expect them to be child molesters and cannibals, not slightly pushy.

>>97195337
Lindysuck's whole modus operandi is just "that's not how I would have done it, therefore it's wrong". Unsubscribed years ago and haven't looked back

>>97212081
Absolute horseshit because I know of several of these major cliques have fallen apart because they keep raping each other. They're all nasty sex weirdos and it always comes out literally all of them fucked each other and it turns out several of them forgot to ask.

>>97211011
Style is substance you brainlet.

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>>97211011
>Any other fatguys feel the same?

>>97211011
>dumbass pulp tropes like one dude solos an army of 50000 and makes a Marvel quip
>I want grit, realism, and down to earth plots.
You've never actually read any real pulp (i.e. magazine stories from the 20s and 30s), have you? The average pulp story was something like a guy who got trapped in the wilderness and had to fight a badger, or a drunken sailor getting into a dubious underground boxing match. Even the fantastic stories often had relatively gritty plots and competent but plausible characters. Doc Savage and Tarzan were absurdly powerful, but they weren't the norm.

>>97211011
Nope, I love it. One guy holding a bridge to save others is what being a hero is all about. If you don't like the characters in made up stories being better than you and putting you to shame, maybe you should stop reading books like that? Coming on here and whining about it won't make all the bad books go away.

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>>97211011
>"I HATE PULP!"
>proceed to describe capeshit/mythic stuff

>>97211741
human

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>>97211741
I would be a Ditto. Back in WoW classic I was druid for the shapeshifting to match what I need. I could do it all as Ditto.

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>>97211816
ditto

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>>97211741
I'm not consistent enough to pick just one, but I'm partial to ghost ruser. Illusions have a lot of potential when not locked to a turn based JRPG and ghost types are neat.

Daoist Magic is about non-action means that Daoist Magic cannot be forced. When the time is right, one will naturally comprehend Daoist Magic. If one blindly pursues Daoist Magic, one will instead fail to comprehend it.

>>97206190
Call of Cthulhu should be the default roleplaying game. The percentage chance of success is incredibly intuitive. The setting is easy enough to grasp, while avoiding a lot of the issues of modern settings (just use your smart-phone to call the authorities) as well as those of high fantasy (the amount of background material). It's great for one-shots, which should be common in newbie games. The source material is available in loads of formats and is pretty great, but if you don't want to get into it, that's no hinderance to playing the game. Lovecraft's racism is a good retard filter. Sandy Petersen is a surprisingly cool dude. The monsters are scary enough that you're encouraged to get creative rather than just charging in.
Other good options:
Alien the RPG - good for one-shots, fairly accessible (watch one or two movies, or just be told 'it's the 1980s in space'), some nice mechanics (although also some clunky ones), reasonably intuitive and rules-lite. Tales from the Loop is also neat and uses a similar system.
In a Wicked Age - very pretentious, but teaches good habits about roleplaying, improvising, and collaborative world-building.
WFRP 2e - Sadly not easily available, but one of the best ways of transitioning wargamers to roleplaying. Subsequent versions have been a down-grade.
Open D6 - one of the more accessible generic systems.
GURPS - you are going to end up there eventually. Might as well just jump in the deep end.

>>97207882
>>97210690
If you're not retarded and know how to DM then OSR is perfect for getting complete noobs into table top.
It's ridiculously simple. While every causal game of 5e I've played has the same hang up.
>so I add strength to that, right?
>um, do I add my proficiency bonus to that?
EVERY
SINGLE
ROLL
And that's IF they're paying attention to the game mechanics. 5e is a cluster fuck for new players.
Are you faggots seriously going to bitch and cry about how OSR is too simple while simultaneously claiming that modern D&D is somehow easier for new players?

>>97205876
In a social hobby, the most important thing by far is something is to pick something that fits what you / everyone else wants to play.
>Are you storyfags?
>Do you want tactical combat?
>Do you want want a game with exploration and danger?
>Do you want something like that's a beer and pretzels kind of game?
>Do you want fantasy? ...high? ...low? Sci fi? ...grimdark? ...cyberpunk? ...something akin to Star Wars? Horror? Something entirely different?
Call of Cthulhu, Delta Green, Cairn, B/X or CY_BORG are all good starting systems, assuming they meet your criteria. If not, ignore them.

>>97205876
Monster of the Week
Savage Worlds
Kobolds Ate My Baby

>>97205876
Black hack, but I mostly agreed with >>97206053

>>97209061
Fine. We won't call you Anon anymore. Your new name is Asshat.

>>97211238
ntayrt
Read things you like. Make shit you want. Don't worry about it too much.

>>97196423
All that neat tech and such? Your players don't have access to it. It's for the obscenely wealthy/aristocratic types. At best you got cobbled together shit that might explode if you look at it weird. That is the PUNK half of steampunk that everyone fucking forgets about.

Thisbthread have discussed many things.
I will add one more: politics.

Steampunk is about victorian period with high class people.

You cannot have that without some interesting pllitics involved. And many modern wroters suck at politics.

Besides Game of Thtones i do not remember a recent book that did politics well.

Hence we cannot have steampunk, cuase we are too dumb to write politics

>>97210623
>calm ye tits, anon
He doesn't want calm tits! He wants to SEETHE!
He wants all of reality to conform to his preconceptions, no exceptions. He's a moron.

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>>97211647
So we aura farming?

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Did somebody say “Aura”?

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>>97208876
It would also explain why the blonde elf is so powerful. Her staff is huge.

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>>97208780
>>97208876
>>97208876
>>97211458
>magic being stored in the boobs
Step aside pleb. The most potent psyker sorcerer in Galaxy.

>>97211979
Warhammer is a heroic setting where the named protagonist always beats the "on paper just as good" units. They just haven't noticed this yet. This is war farsight is so important. Consciously or not, he figured out that being a big important named guy with a slight sense of mystery and vague relevance to the future lets you win all your fights.

Anyway GW will never go for it because they don't want to mix armies. No allies, no marines leading guard, no traitor guard unless it's a boxed traitor guardTM squad. Don't even put looted leman russ tanks into your orks. They don't want it.

>>97212028
The T'au probably best encompass "herohammer" with the basic myth of their warrior caste being the triumvirate of Puretide's disciples O'Shovah, Shaserra, O'Kais to the point even the Chaos Gods acknowledge the trifold path theyve taken is bound to come to some specieswide conflict.

Eldar x Tau was the tastiest soup for a ridiculous edition. With Space Marine x Imperial guard slop being served up in the new Total War entry you best believe 11th or 12th at the latest will see a return of the allies matrix. (Ex special lee when they push for bashing two box sets together for a combat patrol + group introductory setting.)

>>97212080
Nope. Never gonna happen. They enforce no crossovers for marketing and analytics purposes. They only want you to buy eldar for your eldar army and tau for your tau army. This is why they killed the eldar soup push. They're either successfully merged into one faction, or they're going back to two factions. Didn't take so they killed it.

They even made slightly different versions of existing imperial guard tanks for 30k just so they could be listed separate. They have a personal crusade for this. You want it, they don't.

>>97212106
I just think the one two punch of SM2 and TW40k is going to see some rules restriction lifted to better accommodate new player groups mashing together armies. We will see how things go with their 500 Worlds Battalions and what kind of interactivity the sets have with one another or if it's just going to be a Boarding Party 2.0 scenario.

>>97211911
>Where are they?
Check your general, then fucking stay in there.

>>97196529
>Hey can I use Marneus Calgar?
>No
>Okay this is Marius Calgiari Chapter Master of the Ultramarines
You can use a mini without using its rules.

>>97200149
I started in the early 2000s and just about everyone I played with at the club also played in tournaments because it was and still is basically THE way just about everywhere for a whole heap of players from a wide catchment to get together for a weekend of gaming, and I know of none of my mates who have ever expressed an interest in e-sports or whatever gay offboard shit you're blaming on 40k rules being too bland for narrative gameplay

Honestly, I see a wall of text with an authoritative tone I know it's going to be bullshit, you guys are all the same

>>97207665
He's essentially correct. Coming from an oldfag (picked up 40k in 1993 as I got out of college) who played extensively in both the US and the UK in the 90s and 00s, your black shirt is more correct than even he probably realizes. Americans and Brits approached the game from fundamentally different perspectives. While both groups did have outliers, taken as a whole, over playing for 6 years in the UK and for 9 in the US, Brits and Americans can be *generally* sorted into narrative vs competitive gamers, respectively. Brits TENDED to lean more towards using Warhammer as an excuse to hang out with mates in a shed and tell a good story with their toy soldiers, and while winning mattered, it was less important than the experience of playing the game and making funny/interesting things happen. Short campaigns were common, and people would not unusually take a scenario they just played, switch sides (you aren't using *your* army) and refight it to see if you could do better. Or to kill more time before you had to go home. You were getting to hang with your mates for a fun time and some laughs when your librarian got killed by the scatter of his own vortex grenade.

Americans by contrast *tended* to approach the game from the perspective of "how do I win this game most efficiently?". If a unit wasn't performing, you took it out of your army, even if it was the 1st unit you ever painted, or you really liked the paint job. The expectation was that while you can have fun with the game, winning produces the most fun, so you are an irresponsible gamer if you aren't doing everything you can within the boundaries of rules and a social contract, to win.
>1/2

>>97209473
Again, I want to be very clear about this, these were not hard and fast rules. All Americans were not like that, and there were absolutely Brits who only cared about the game if they won. But because you were generally limited to playing only with the people in your immediate area, whom you were already at least acquaintances with, you had to conform to the attitudes of people around you, or other people would just stop playing with you. Neither side really had an internet community to fall back on and reinforce their behavior, and serious netlisting didn't really start being feasible until mid 3rd edition (I blame this a lot on the DakkaDakka forums).

The two things that were really divisive back then were the existence and power level of eldar (some things don't change), and the guys who would model for advantage. Modeling for advantage was a competitive technique that actually came out of the UK. Americans would just play rules lawyer really hard, but all of the crawling Wraithlords I ever experienced were in London and in Birmingham (fortunately, Birmingham being Birmingham, somebody stole the crawling Wraithlord, which solved the problem).

So in the end, as Americans took up more and more market share, GW changed the game to cater more and more to their attitudes. The narrative basis of the game was essentially extinct by 6e, mid-way through which is when I finally dropped out. But it was clearly on the heavy downswing after 4e.
>The real irony being that the big GW-sponsored get togethers and tournaments were also dying out at the same time, just as competitive play outside of the bounds of a narrative structure became the default method to approach the game.
>2/2

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>>97196184
Considering that many factors of WH40k were originally based on the scifi comic 2000ad, it suggests that this was always the case. It just went corporate, that's all, with a focus going more on what sells to the general masses than what was subversive, satirical, ironic or cool.