Where the bee sucks, there suck I:In a cowslip’s bell I lie;There I couch when owls do cry.On the bat’s back I do flyAfter summer merrily. Merrily, merrily shall I live nowUnder the blossom that hangs on the bough.
>>23321222feet
bump for the qt lady
>>23323169No possible way that's a tranny, passes way too much and has feminine feet
>>23325410The face is clearly a gay man's.
>>23321222built for my big brown cock
Pretty poem. Is it any consolation (the only consolation?) to spend your life consciously in service of something? Not to go all Tartar Steppe or anything.
>>23325687That's called 'anchoring' which is a form of cope.
>>23325689Sure, but it offers the appearance of meaning, and if my life will slip away regardless then I dont understand the issue with grasping for the pretty flower rather than the sturdy branch, if neither will save me.Is it just the self delusion that bothers you? Are you claiming to lead a fully lucid life at all times?
>I'm a fucking loser: the poem
>>23325738Yes, I main-line reality throughout each and every day.
Thoughts on Ashbery? Any favorite poems or collections by him that you want to recommend or discuss? What do you think of some critics' accusations that his work is meaningless?
>>23302167>>23325640AIslop haters 0Ashbery 1
>>23325640>>23325677Poetry Foundation shows 0 results for "How This Sadness Came To Be Persistent."Google shows several hits, but all of them either link back to this thread, or to an obscure passage in Ruskin's Modern Painters, ie: "There the priest is on the beach alone, the sun setting. He prays to it as it descends;—flakes of its sheeted light are borne to him by the melancholy waves, and cast away with sighs upon the sand."How this sadness came to be persistent over Turner, and to conquer him, we shall see in a little while. It is enough for us to know at present that our most wise and Christian England, with all her appurtenances of school-porch and church-spire, had so disposed her teaching as to leave this somewhat notable child of hers without even cruel Pandora’s gift."Which doesn't illuminate very much, does it?
>>23323962>It is post ww2 poetry after all. Hence why I think a chart is required.Gotta have stuff to chart before you can chart it. Wikipedia to the rescue. English poets post-1945:Poets in British Poetry since 1945 (first edition)A. Alvarez - Kingsley Amis - George Barker - Patricia Beer - Martin Bell - Francis Berry - John Betjeman - D. M. Black - Thomas Blackburn - Alan Bold - Alan Brownjohn - Basil Bunting - Miles Burrows - Charles Causley - Barry Cole - Tony Connor - Iain Crichton Smith - Peter Dale - Donald Davie - Lawrence Durrell - D. J. Enright - Paul Evans - Ian Hamilton Finlay - Roy Fisher - John Fuller - Roy Fuller - Robert Garioch - David Gascoyne - Karen Gershon - Henry Graham - W. S. Graham - Robert Graves - Harry Guest - Thom Gunn - Michael Hamburger - Ian Hamilton Finlay - Lee Harwood - Spike Hawkins - Seamus Heaney - John Heath-Stubbs - Adrian Henri - Geoffrey Hill - Philip Hobsbaum - Anselm Hollo - Ted Hughes - Elizabeth Jennings - Brian Jones - David Jones - Philip Larkin - Peter Levi - Christopher Logue - Edward Lucie-Smith - George MacBeth - Norman MacCaig - Hugh MacDiarmid - Roger McGough - George Mackay Brown - Louis MacNeice - Barry MacSweeney - Derek Mahon - Matthew Mead - Christopher Middleton - Adrian Mitchell - Dom Moraes - Edwin Morgan - Edwin Muir - Jeff Nuttall - Stewart Parker - Brian Patten - Sylvia Plath - Peter Porter - Tom Raworth - Peter Redgrove - Jon Silkin - Stevie Smith - Bernard Spencer - Jon Stallworthy - Nathaniel Tarn - Dylan Thomas - D. M. Thomas - Anthony Thwaite - Charles Tomlinson - Rosemary Tonks - Gael Turnbull - Vernon Watkins - David WevillPoets in British Poetry since 1945 (second edition)The following poets in the first edition are not in the second edition:Paul Evans - Spike Hawkins - Anselm Hollo - Barry MacSweeney - Stewart Parker - Rosemary TonksThe following were added:David Constantine - Douglas Dunn - James Fenton - Tony Harrison - Michael Longley - Medbh McGuckian - Andrew Motion - Paul Muldoon - Tom Paulin - Craig Raine - Peter Scupham - C. H. Sisson - Ken Smith - David Sweetman - George Szirtes - R. S. Thomas - Kit WrightComment too long. Click here to view the full text.
>>23323962And here are the Americans post-1945, according to AI:American poetry after 1945 has been marked by a diverse range of styles, themes, and movements. Here are some notable American poets and their contributions:Beat poets: Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, and Gregory Corso, among others, were part of the Beat Generation, known for their spontaneous, free-verse style and countercultural ideals.Confessional poets: Poets like Sylvia Plath, Anne Sexton, and Robert Lowell explored themes of personal struggle, mental health, and the human condition.Black Mountain poets: Charles Olson, Robert Creeley, and Denise Levertov, among others, were associated with the Black Mountain College and its experimental approach to poetry, which emphasized the importance of the individual’s inner life and the connection between poetry and everyday experience.Deep image poets: Poets like Robert Duncan, Robin Blaser, and Michael McClure were influenced by the Black Mountain movement and emphasized the importance of the subconscious and the exploration of the human psyche.Language poets: Poets like Lyn Hejinian, Ron Silliman, and Carla Harryman, among others, were part of the Language poetry movement, which emphasized the importance of language and its relationship to meaning and reality.Native American poets: Poets like Joy Harjo, Sherman Alexie, and Leslie Marmon Silko have made significant contributions to American poetry, exploring themes of identity, culture, and social justice.Post-confessional poets: Poets like Adrienne Rich, Frank Bidart, and Mark Doty have continued the confessional tradition, exploring themes of personal and social identity, politics, and the human condition.Some notable American poets after 1945 include:Allen GinsbergComment too long. Click here to view the full text.
>>23325818Top of the Pops: Betjeman, Thom Gunn, Heaney, Geoffrey Hill, Philip Larkin, Stevie Smith, Peter Scupham (whom they did mention. I was too blinded by outrage that he wasn't included in the first edition that I missed it as I frothed. Mea culpa.) Honorable Mention: Rosemary Tonks.Americans: well, Lowell, of course. Can't think of anyone else on the list worth reading, except, now and again, Plath. Stalling certainly has promise.
Let's talk about our favorite literary scandals. I'll start: William S. Burroughs accidentally shooting his wife in the face during a party in Mexico.
>>23325826>accidentally
What am I in for? New to reading by the way
>>23321055My understanding was that it was the not specifically identify a real location. In Dostoevsky's case, it may have been not to draw attention to anything or anywhere specific (since all publications had to pass the censors).
They should make a movie adaptation already.
>>23320019okay english is not my first language, can any of you fags help me to decide? i'm thinking Constance Garnett revised version
>>23325716I'm reading the revised Garnett translation. I read a bunch of translations side by side and the two that read the best to me were Katz and revised Garnett. I personally prioritize how well the prose flows when reading. I don't care about academic accuracy or poetic prose.
>>23323510>t. never read it
How do we reconcile David praying for the destruction of his enemies with Jesus commanding to love and pray for your enemies in a positive manner?
>>23321427judaism is a nationalist myth meant to keep the jewish authorities in power and justify atrocities against their enemieschristianity is a religion for slaves and peasants, meant to keep the masses sedated
>>23324457such profound
>>23322825Not sure which desire is greater Jews for money or Christians for the end of the world.
>>23324474>He doesn't deny itHow suprising, I never could have seen that coming...
>>23324779I have no doubts as to your uncertainty in that matter and on countless others.
The time has finally come for me to tackle this beast.Where should I start?I want to learn the complete story from the rise to the fall.
>>23325391you asked and and I explained why. I didn't ask you to write an essay. why are you so afraid?
>>23323346>steal Civilization from Greece >conquer the middle sea>do gay sex orgies>convert to Christianity (circa 310)>long process of decline already begun>"Officially" dissolved by 476>barbarians now control Europe>welcome to the middle ages There, saved you from reading hundreds of pages
>>23323346>Where should I start?Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata.
>>23325409Kys
You need to have a sound understanding of the primary sources before reading any secondary sources.I would suggest to start with the rise of the Roman Republic and to get a underatanding of how the Roman's thought about the world. Polybius is a great place to start. He was interested in understanding how the Republic came to dominate the Mederterrian. He also gives great insight into how the Roman Political system worked. Livy is an absolute snooze fest. There is a reason why none of it survived intact.Works of Appian and Sallust both complement this peroid aswell. You can also use Plutarch's Lives as supplementary material on different characters, however treat Plutarch is a degree of caution as he was writing about "morals and the ethics" of each character.For the early Principate Tacitus and Dio are both excellent companions. Tacitus imo is the greatest historian of the era. Seutonious also wrote about the early Emperors however he is a terribly unreliable source filled with rumour and hearsay. However, you can read him as to get a good idea on what the Roman upper class thought of the early Principate at the time.Pliny the Younger's dialogues with Trajan are also a great piece of history to understand how the Roman Provincial System workedOnce you move past that it gets a bit muddled. You have Joesphus and 2nd century mostly christian apologia historians like Origen who are a bore to read.Finally READ Gibbon but read him in context. His ideas are completely wrong about the decline of the empire and have been debunked many times in academic circles. I would suggest focusing on the decline of the republic as that I find is more interesting than a slow decline of an Empire over many years. A shift in politics away from an oligarchic structure to a monarchy was a radical change for Rome.Comment too long. Click here to view the full text.
>>In the Bhagavadgita, Krishna teaches that one can kill only the body; the soul is immortal. At death, the soul is reborn in another body, or, for those who have fully grasped the true teachings, it achieves release (moksha) or extinction (nirvana)—that is, freedom from the wheel of rebirth.Wait, if Hinduism contains the main Buddhist elements, that is to say to escape the cycle of birth-rebirth then what original ideas did Buddhism bring to the table to make it a separate religion?
>>23316899So buying factory farm meat at the supermarket is fine because it's already killed and shouldn't go to waste? Isn't it immoral to support an industry that creates brutality and senseless suffering?
>>23321759>It seems likely that the Brahmins were willing to incorporate new ideas into new texts even thought they might controversy Brahmin imaginary (namely less of an emphasis on the ritual)The Aranyakas already declare the superiority of monasticism over rites, that idea doesn't start with the Upanishads.>This is an established scholars opinion I don't see Doniger as being an especially serious scholar, her works seem driven by her ideological agenda/beliefs. Some of her stuff has been retracted before.>and of course breaks the religious narrative by considering all of the shruti as a whole corpus but a historian can't simply take a corpus of texts written over the course of a millennium as a single body of coherenceThis is only if you are presupposing that the Shruti emerged from the "bottom up" in response to socio-economic change instead of being genuinely revealed/received "from above" or even simply emerged from an investigation into timeless spiritual truths independent of any mundane considerations. So, you really haven't said anything but "yeah but if scholars presuppose that the Shruti isn't revealed then they can find things that can be read as supporting their own presuppostions" but that's not really an argument and you can say that about anything position including the opposing viewpoint.
>>23323588>There's a clear difference of vocabulary between the early hindu texts and one from the late vedic era.Difference in vocabulary isn't prima facie evidence of socio-economic upheavel and isn't also not prima facie evidence that changes in the vocabulary were driven specifically by the socio-economic changes instead of just being incidental.> Brahmins are just glorified cattle herders.This is a silly thing to say when they are overrepresented in producing the notable works of philosophy, drama, poetry etc in India, both Hindu and non-Hindu.
>>23316899What you miss in your examples is decay. Yes the Hindus and Muslims had their high points, but it speaks to the failures of their religions that it has led them to these new low points. Hinduism and Islam were doomed to these fates because the flaws are inherent to the religions. Hinduism naturally becomes hollow nationalism, Islam becomes desert barbarism.
>>23325754>new low pointswhat low points? explain your logic
Jo K.R. is cool and writes literary fiction.(get it? her name can be rendered as Joker, like the Joker from JOKER)What do you enjoy about one of the few women actually writing literature?
>>23325709She's based, troon. Shit bait.
She set herself way too high a bar trying to write a spy story in a world where casual teleportation, mind control, and time travel are a thing, but I'll give credit where credit's due. She's the first author I ever read who captured how in your teens, school days tend to all bleed together until you don't measure in distinct days/weeks so much as good and bad "runs"
>>23325713"He [Harry Potter] is the prism through which I view death in all it's many forms"- Kathleen No bait except 'bate here but thanks for the compilation.
I skim read.
Let's see 'em.
>>23325281I’m just a little leery of Pynchon trade paperbacks: I went into a big chain bookstore one days a few years ago and randomly flipped through a Harper Perennial copy of V. and found half a dozen spelling and typesetting errors.
>>23315642Went up to Edinburgh last weekend and picked these up from a very nice little bookshop. Especially nice for me since the only used bookshop that is any good near where I live is a fucking Oxfam.
>>23325557Only two I've read from your stack are the Faulkner and Auster books. The Faulkner is very good, I find myself thinking about it often but I should get around to rereading it soon. The four sections offer such vastly different interpretations of the same wanting, the same mourning-longing, that I can't imagine what Faulkner must've gone through when writing it. The Auster was pretty disappointing: from what I remember, all the stories/novellas start off very promising but then devolve into simplistic, cartoonish denouements: as if Auster got bored or wrote himself into a corner and had to hastily bring his plot back up to something tolerably human but thematically unsatisfying. But you may think different. Please post your opinion here if/when you read the new york trilogy because I'm interested in others' opinion of Auster.
>>23325582>as if Auster got bored or wrote himself into a corner and had to hastily bring his plot back up to something tolerably human but thematically unsatisfying.It is built around the metafiction, even the plot is understood through the meta. His execution is meticulous and nothing is done hastily, which is one of the few good things I can say about Auster. Not my sort of reading but I ultimately enjoyed it and learned a great deal about metafiction.
>>23325612Makes sense, I've never appreciated Barth's later stuff, always seemed to me to be too much of the "Hey, look, this is fiction. See?" kind of writing that I detest. One of the worst culprits was a novel about a tennis match between a painter and a poet where the author inserted an email from his agent (I don't know if it was real or just done up for the page) where she sounded excited for this new book. Not that I'm entirely against this kind of fiction, like Borges or Pynchon, or Onetti and even some of the English and French classics that constantly allude to the artificial nature of the fiction, hell Shakespeare does it a handful of times. It's just this feeling, like at the end of Weill's and Brecht's Die Dreigroschenoper where the main character is about to be executed and then addresses the audience and tells them it's all make believe, he can do whatever he likes.I will say I was enjoying them before that feeling hit me, maybe I was enjoying the metafiction (the gumshoe template, the constant allusions to the New England/Transcendental authors, the Beckettian situations in the first two books and the Hawthorne/Poe theme running through the third) before I became bored with the artificiality and was hoping he'd break free from it.I have to admit I was reading the trilogy at a time when I was trying to write a detective/mystery, so maybe I was dissatisfied with Auster's books because I thought I would have done things differently.
Did I get an incomplete copy of this? Almost none of the major plot threads were resolved
>>23325482>but isn't kind of a "must" for the plot points to be resolved?No, why would it? Plot is a tool, not a purpose.
>>23325518your a tool
>>23325482>but if I don't want anything to be solved, wouldn't I be better watching a David Lynch movie?Why would you do that when you could apparently read Pynchon and get the same thing?
>>23325433He's had literary Alzheimer's for the past four novels at least.
>>23325482>but isn't kind of a "must" for the plot points to be resolvedHas to be bait.
What are you currently studying about, /lit/?
Hmm...Huh? Oh yeah, sure.
>>23323875fuck...
>>23323875I'm studying why jannies are a bunch of faggots>Oh no it's a candid photo of a female ass in jeans!!
>considered a hack and a fraud in his own day>his downfall was predicted and awaited with relish by Ibsen, Wilde, Woolf, and many other writers and dramatists>hated almost all professional writers and poets, preferred the company of businessmen >died the equivalent of a billionaire >is still widely read and performed today. >his librettos and his collection of poems (Bab Ballads) have never been out of print. >a critical re-appraisal at the turn of the last century has only improved his posthumous reputation. Gilbert-chads, I kneel.
it's unlikely that Ibsen would have mentioned Gilbert. They moved in different literary circles and focused on different styles of drama—realistic and social critique for Ibsen, and comedic and satirical operas for Gilbert
>>23325266AHEM, based.
>>23325286He was aware of Gilbert and Sullivan. It was huge cultural phenomenon. This would like trying to argue that Scorsese isn’t away of Marvel Movies.
>>23324958>slopmaxxingPeople will try to posthumously rehabilitate JK Rowlings as a great writer (unless trannies win).
>>23325508Kys. https://youtu.be/rP2qJXT3olM?si=V5OYKamHn9Gs37DV
Jordan Peterson is widely considered to be one of the most influential writer of all time. An absolute triumph and a giant of western philosophy. His book the 12 rules for life is often considered as his magnum opus and labeled by the national literary society as a “Great American Novel”. New York Times called it “in defeated masterpiece that few could ever surpass”Times magazine “Peterson, the Confucius of the west, the 21st century Immanuel Kant, a National Treasure”. We give our greatest gratitude to one of the greatest and most important writers of all the time: Jordan Peterson.
>>23325659I was thinking of reading Ten Rules for Life but I didn't know Peterson was a neo-nazi. He seemed like a pretty chill guy from the podcasts I listened to.
>>23321531
>>23324480It turns out the context is the octopus was being used as an anti-kike dogwhistle in reference to some old political cartoon about a jew with tentacles spreading across Europe, but it's so obscure it's funnier just to assume he's yelling about stuffed animals.
>>23324480>That's not real..is it?Nope.
